Why do Americans prefer car-centric cities?
Land/building values are much higher in non-car-centric places so Americans prefer walkable cities.
Because cars are better than literally every alternative form of transportation.
>>1878490Nice! It's the daily>reeee carsthread. This will surely be insightful!
>>1878490it's just insane, 100 years ago americans had aesthetic cities and transport but they choose to ruin this for no reason, it's a tragedy
>>1878495Just got back from vacation today via train. Took six hours, the same amount of time it would have taken to drive. I had only gotten like 3 hours of sleep the night prior cause I didn't like the bed or pillows at the hotel, and also my neck hurt. Driving would have been a fucking nightmare, having to load myself up on caffeine and trying to keep my eyes open for 6 hours on the road. Flying would have sucked too, that shit's such a hassle. Instead I got to sit back and relax in a roomy chair and be rocked to sleep by the train. Thank-you trains.
>CAGE CAGE CAGE REEEEEEE
>>1878490Is that the same angle? It seems weird that the roads all changed directions
>>1878490Scheduled transport is always more inefficient than on demand transport.If scheduled transport is your only means of transportation, chances are you have to walk to the nearest waiting station.This costs time.Then you’d have to wait at the station for the transport to arrive.This costs time.Then the transport will have to stop at every other stop along the way to pick up passengers.This costs time.Then having been spit out with no personal transportation of your own, you would probably have to walk. again.Cost, time, this.Meanwhile get in a car: no waiting to go, go to destination, park in the spot with minimal walking distance.Wow that was quick, even with traffic.The most time efficient system of transport, period, would basically be a bunch of robo taxis with no speed limit.You wouldn’t have to have a ton of parking garages, because they are all cabs.They would be on demand so no waiting to go.And they would have either no speed limit or a greatly increased speed limit because the robo driver would be safer at driving.It would absolutely destroy anything else in terms of total commute time.The only thing that could possibly one up it would be robo taxi helicopters.
>>1878595>watches Total Recall once
>>1878490A multiracial state like America can't have functional cities without legal segregation. Car centric cities are a requirement of daily life here because if everyone around say, Baltimore had to take the train in daily the casualty rate would be unacceptably high. Long commutes and physical distance between work and home is there to put logistical barriers up to keep /n/s away since it's illegal to do that with force now (and I'm tired of pretending it's not). Japan, as an example, has the total opposite dynamic because there's no worry that inner city Koreans will go out to Yokohama from Tokyo and cause havoc/commit murder. Race tensions may not have initiated the car centric city but it sure as hell as perpetrated it.
>>1878490Because it is easier to segregate from people they don't like. Thats why they built the burbs and destroyed the public transport in the first place and thats why the will keep building shit infrastructure like that. If you don't like it, move to Europe because no matter what, US cities will never again have good walkability, high living quality or traffic free down towns.
>>1878675>If you don't like it, move to Europe because no matter what, US cities will never again have good walkability, high living quality or traffic free down towns.At least not in our life times, maybe in a hundred years, the same amount of time it took the car industry/racists/idiots to destroy our beautiful country. Rome wasn't burned in a day. Speaking of places destroyed by racists, did you know Detroit was once called the "Paris of the West"?
>>1878696>CAGE CAGE CAGE>DAS RAISISCOPE more you retarded faggot
>>1878700chill out, retard
>>1878696 Still is the Paris of the west, but for /pol/ reasons
>>1878696>destroyed by racists>blacks commit crime and destroy businesses>THEY DIDNU NOFFIN ITS THE CRACKAS FAULT
>>1878713Yea, read a history book dumbass.
>>1878714You know, the other day I tried to learn some african history, but the only written sources I could find were from whites.Why didn't africans record their history?Is it the same reason modern africans commit so much crime?
>>1878595Lmfao, this doesn’t even take the time into account it takes to work to afford a car, plus insurance, maintenance and fuel. Working 20 hours a month to afford a car costs time, too. Not to mention the subsidies cagers soak up out of my pedestrian paycheck. If steel cages are so efficient why does everyone have to pay for their roads?Everything you said can be applied to a bicycle, with even better parking and the added benefit of better physical health. I can literally unlock my bike or grab my skateboard, “on demand no waiting” and get where I need to go. I’m sick of burgerland petrosexuals fetishizing technological “innovations” that are not free in any sense of the word.
>>1878672Suburbanites are the biggest welfare queens. I’m sick of subsiding your lifestyle just for Skyler and Kyle to move to “the hood” and bring their liberal antics to the inner city.
>>1878720African history and African-American history are two completely different things, mouth breather. The CIA’s involvement in the crack epidemic, historical redlining, and the history of prison labor/14th amendment are all very well documented. I’d consider reading up on Americas history of systemic racism, however it might shatter the narrative you identify with so vehemently.
>>1878730In reality urban areas generate 80 of the countries wealth and the country bumkins leach on subventions.
>>1878734oh my, all those burbs. Atlanta is damned to be a soulless hellhole forever whilst Barcelona will stay one of the most attractive cities in the world.
>>1878734Yep the US has a lot of land. Kudos for noticing.>>1878736Stay obsessed
>>1878503Hey it’s that guy who whines in every thread
live your dream in russia
>>1878748>no gunsNo thanks.
>>1878731African-Americans and Africans are the same race anon.
>>1878727Yeah you can grab a bike whenever you want. Rain and snow don't exist. Quadrupling your commute time isn't a big deal. Arriving all sweaty and disgusting is exactly the same as driving your air conditioned car in the summer. How much do pedestrians pay for their infrastructure? How much do bikers? What percent of public transportation is subsidized? Car user are the only ones you single out.Why does the most superior form of transportation make you seethe that much?
>>1878734>we're not that different, you and I
>>1878736Yeah living comfortably in single family homes is souless.Being squashed into single room apartments, now that's SOUL.Imagine not waking up when your neighbor decides to vacuum their floor, literally SOULESS.
Cities are garbage by default, no one should live there.Only commies and collectivist subhuman filth what some mass transport network where you're stuffed in cans with all the other human garbage.No thanks, I'll drive my car wherever I want
>>1878758We're talking about real buildings, ameribro. Not the papier mache shit you have to rebuild every year due to a tornado ow whatever plague hit you this time around.>imagine living in a communityyeah, literally imagine that.
>>1878755>How much do pedestrians pay for their infrastructure? How much do bikers? Lol, why are these threads always filled with imbeciles with 0 awareness? You don't deserve having voting rights, even your ability to drive a car needlessly endangers others.
They don’t, actually.
>>1878769>ameribroI'm not even from America you retard. I live in one of those "modern" commie blocks.Suburbs also have communities retard, you just live there like a human not like a slave.
>>1878776>no answer.Thanks for admitting surrender.
>>1878783No point arguing with people who wouldn't benefit from it, I just find solace in the prospect of you leading a long life, so you have plenty of opportunities to suffer from your stupidity and to convince other people of the benefits of taking away civic rights from the masses
>>1878786That's a nice cope after having your argument destroyed.
>>1878773Have you ever noticed when these "debates" happen, it's always the urban, pedestrianized cores of European cities versus the far-flung suburbs of American cities?
>>1878754You’re retarded and white :)
>>1878490they allow them to live farther from people not of their race
>>1878755Lmfao. Why not just take an air conditioned bus or train? I don’t want to look for parking or go get gas. I don’t want to pay the white man for the privilege to get pulled over and robbed again. If I need groceries or if it’s raining, I pay a car brained heroin addict to deliver them for me for $10 on Instacart.Car users get singled out because their preferred mode of transit destroys the road and itself, by design. When have you seen a bicycle fold over a bollard or destroy a guard rail? Cars and roads are depreciating assets. If it wasn’t for Dwight Eisenhower sucking Henry ford off you would be on a train
>>1878767If everyone moves to bankrupt suburbs who will subsidize your water and sewer?
>>1878706Paris might have turned into a shithole (I know from experience) but it's very densely populated. Isn't Detroit an empty shell?
>>1878696>Everything was just peachy in the “Paris of the West” until those damn racists showed up and ruined everything. Umm… Who do you suppose built the city in the first place?
>>1878799Eisenhower? Buddy, the Model T was out in 1908. Coincidentally, train travel started to decline around the 1920s.
>>1878795You are black.I don't have to add retarded as that's a given.
>>1878799>If it wasn’t for Dwight Eisenhower sucking Henry ford off you would be on a trainYou posted this sentiment in another thread. Eisenhower knew how bad the national highway system was, before the WW2 he was part of an Army party that traversed the US as an experiment and saw first-hand the poor conditions of roads. Then in WW2 he was impressed with Germany's autobahns. Aside from that, it was clear that the railroads were barely able to handle the mobilization of WW2 and if the war had gone on longer then there could have been serious problems as the result of war-deferred maintenance and modernization. He didn't need to be persuaded to do it; Americans were behind it and the he knew how badly the nation needed it.
>>1878799>Why not just take an air conditioned bus or train?Why should I waste time walking to a waiting station.Waiting there for a bus.Stopping at every waiting station along the way.And then walk again to my destination?I can just get into a car and be there.>I don’t want to look for parking.That's a europoor infrastructure problem.Vote right wing to fix it. >go get gasThat's less than a minute. >to get pulled over and robbed againI agree. Speed limits should be abolished. Traffic cops are just another way to tax(steal from) people. >When have you seen a bicycle fold over a bollard or destroy a guard rail? This happens so rarely and is so cheap to fix that's not even worth mentioning.Car users contribute infinitely more to maintaining their roads than pedestrians or lycra fags do. >Cars and roads are depreciating assets.So is basically everything. >If it wasn’t for Dwight Eisenhower sucking Henry ford off you would be on a trainFactually incorrect.Cars were choose by people as their preferred mode of transportation.Source:Just look at what happened in eastern european after communism fell.Instant car revolution.
>>1878727>takes to work to afford a car, plus insurance, maintenance and fuel.What you say applies to literally every form of transport, even your own legs.(Maintenance is just called ‘health’ and fuel is called ‘food’)>What you said applies to bicycles.It does, it’s why people ride bikes rather than a bike trolley or something of that nature.Non-scheduled transport.>Better parkingAlready solved with robo taxis.However you are giving up: speed, safety, cargo space, comfort, and a certain level of privacy as an occupant when you pick a bike over a car.>>1878664I actually haven’t watched any of the total recall movies.Are you talking about the older films or the nu-films?
>>1878734>No mention of total commute times.Keep conceding.
Cars are cool, I like them along with planes and trains. I don't understand why people on this board have an autistic hatred for cars. Honestly, if it has an engine and moves I'm probably gonna like it
>>1879025Also I'm gonna point out that Germany and Japan both have healthy automotive industries and robust road networks along with high speed rail and an advanced air travel infrastructure.Btw bicycle faggots deserve nothing but death. One time I was riding light rail train and this spandex wearing cyclist had his bike fall on me when he was about to get off for his stop. He was like "Oh sorry" and left, I'm fine but I ended up with a blackish bruise on my thigh.
>>1878889>this is what euros/cycloids actually believe
>Destroying the environment, bankrupting cities and creating anti human soul crushing infrastructure is bad because.. it just is okay
>>1879111>Destroying the environment,A meme>creating anti human soul crushing infrastructureBut enough about dense cities.
>>1878490They don't, they merely don't have a choice because car manufacturers lobbied their way into removing mass transportation for profit and then made propaganda commercials about how cars were cool. Now there isn't an alternative and they are still convinced it's the best way despite the literal evidence of every other country showing it's shit tierMuricans love to improve their billionaires status
>>1879027>Germany>healthy auto industrychuckle
>>1879124>doesn't adress bankrupting cities, literally the most objectively true argumentsmooth
>>1879027your flesh is weak.
>>1879129Why would I address a point that is objectively just a delusion?Cities have been car-friendly for decades now, and somehow they haven't gone bankrupt.
>>1879134>>1879129Ask someone what cities have gone bankrupt because of their road/sprawl system and they'll just link you a list of cities that have filed for bankruptcy (for any reason) without actually answering the question.
>>1879129"Bankrupting cities" is basically the NUMTOT version of "late-stage capitalism" for Marxists. >trust me bro it's all going to fall apart any day now
>>1878730>My name is Skylar White, Yo!>Walter White is my Husband, yo!
>>1879124More soul in 1 hotel than your entire suburb
>>1879231Enjoy that 200$ a night for a small room with no parking.
>>1878748That's like the worst of both worlds.>Car centric>Diseased
>>1879287If having roads with cars on it makes it "car centric", I have some very bad news for you.
>>1879263Who needs parking when you're in The Loop, access to a train from that hotel is literally a 175 meter walk. If you really need to be a fat carbrain however, there's a garage under Millennium Park which is across the street with underground access and a few shops and restaurants in the Pedway but having a car in this city is more trouble than it's worth.That $200 a night is the luxury of not having to rent a car. If you're smart though, you can find a hotel outside of downtown for half the price while still being next to a train station in the safer part of the north side.
>>1878490Culturally we like to be independent, or at least at one time we did. I know that prefer to be. I like to drive myself, have my hands at the controls. Leave when I want, arrive when I want. Take any route that suits me.
>>1879322Ok but you're going to have to start paying for it. The adults are sick of subsidising you. Fuel will have to be 10x or more, registration will probably stay the same as it doesn't fund anything but itself anyway. All roads will have to be tolls. Glad we could come to an agreement.
>>1878490We don’t. However developers can make a ridiculous profit by zoning disconnected suburban neighborhoods, which makes a car necessary to get to shops and do anything basic. People buy these suburban houses because you get a lot of space for the money and the real estate in metro areas is usually pretty expensive.
>>1878736>>1878734Barcelona is still a car infested shit hole. While walking down La Rambla you've got cars driving on either side. That place is packed with pedestrians but for whatever fucking reason they need to have cars going up and down that way. Then once you get to the end there's a statue of Columbus, surrounded by a roundabout full of cars.
>>1879335He is already paying for it. I don't know where you got those delusional numbers from.
>>1879335I've been driving for almost 30 years Mr. Sperg
>>1878739> I can spend at least 50 cents per mile to move my fat ass.Even niggers manage money better.
>>1878748Those nu-commieblock districts rarely have any decent transit.No trams, no large buses and you would be lucky if you live not very far from subway station.Instead, you have to ride on this abomination in a traffic jam.Also, you're gay.
>>1878730Das rite! Don't understand they ways and I ain't down with gays.
>>1878871> No mention of distance driven to get a roll of toilet paper.yikes
>>1879384It takes maybe 10 minutes to go to the store where you can get enough food for the week and enough toilet paper to last you for six months.>>1879346The "cars are subsidized reeee" argument comes from some video Chuck or Jason made about how permits made in less dense areas means more total infrastructure/police/fire cost or something and all of the urbanites swallow that line without question, even though it actually has so many variables that have to line up perfectly that it has little bearing in reality.
>>1879385> proud to be worse than a nigger
>>1879388>where you can get enough food for the week and enough toilet paper to last you for six months.Do amerifats really?
>>1879393No, that's just one of a million excuses Americans use to justify why they need a giant car.
>>1879393How fast do you go through toilet paper? I can get a regular sized package and not run out for months.As for food, buying what you need early saves time and money because you can do meal planning. It's not any fresher than the half-rotting produce most inner city stores get, and I don't need fresh bread every day.
>>1879397>t. never been to an inner cityInner city grocery stores are way fresher than what you get elsewhere, the stock is constantly being rotated.
>>1879400Yeah, if you live in the neighborhoods with Whole Foods and Trader Joe's, but most people aren't trust fund babies. I'm not sure if you're larping but have you ever been outside of the main city?
>>1879402Just don't be poor, retard
>>1878672Why do we love skin color so much? And more importantly, why do we give up our classic cities just because someone else is there and they don't have the same skin color that we do? Do we love skin color more than having a livable city?
>>1879322>I like to drive myself, have my hands at the controlsBut only if you have your license, registration, proof of insurance, inspection sticker, road-regulation make and model, tail lights in perfect condition, and you're going at the government-mandated speed limit.>Leave when I want, arrive when I want. No, traffic flow dictates that. You're in a train but with 100 other train cars. Once enough people are on the road, your decisions mean jack shit.>Take any route that suits me.You have the interstate, the interchange to another interstate, you have to turn at this-exit-not-that-exit, take the cloverleaf interchange a few more times, and then finally you've gone five miles in a straight line.That'll be $5 toll plus tax!
>>1879410I can tell you don't live in the US
>>1879410>sour grapesSorry you are too poor to afford a car.
>>1879414Having a car makes you poor, Cletus. Seems like you're the one with sour grapes.
>>1879417>being able to afford private property and private mobility makes you poorMental gymnastics of the seething poor LMAO
>>1879418>being able to affordThat phrase has vastly different meanings depending on how retarded someone is, retard.
>>1878792because the urban pedestrianized cores in america are rare as fuck and only a few (old) cities match the ease of living without a car that nearly any city in netherlands, france etc. has.
>>1879171many small towns have fallen apart due to falling for the car meme, big cities not so much besides detroit, essentially they only survived due to some healthy manufacturing industry in that area so people had their big houses and wonderful suburban life but then that industry went away and the anti-human, costly and inefficient design of those places bit them in the ass (as well as hyperfocus on one form of local income) you can see this in any state in the united states (and much of canada)
>>1879423>more sour grapes
>>1879429well actually it's not that small but gary, indiana, yes the decline of the town is obviously because of the decline of the steel industry but it was greatly helped by white suburban flight which destroyed any hope the city had of recovering from losing it's industry. new suburban "towns" of giant cookie cutter SFH developments and shopping malls are one bad economic downturn from being ghost towns.
>>1879429Toronto, Canada, has a confirmed $700 million budget shortfall this year, but a $2.2 billion capital works project coming due in order to repair a downtown expressway. Most expressways are owned by the provincial (equivalent to US state) government here, but Toronto was politicked into building its own expressways to support suburbanization in the 50s and 60s. Suburbs which weren't even part of the city itself and its tax base at the time.If Toronto had not built these expressways, it wouldn't be saddled with the lifespan costs. Even though the initial construction was somewhat subsidized by other levels of government, expansion and maintenance and, now, rehabilitation of the decrepit infrastructure are now regarded as purely the municipality's responsibility.The moral of the story is that a city should NEVER build road capacity to support traffic from its neighbours. Interurban roads should be a state/federal responsibility.
>>1879427>many small towns have fallen apart due to falling for the car memeName specifics and show the math that it was actually car infrastructure overexertion and not just the fact that Americans are rapidly urbanizing. The only concrete examples you've named are Gary and Detroit, and all that proves is that Americans don't want to live in frigid shitholes with no jobs.
>>1879457I never said that the towns specifically fall apart only due to car infrastructure. but when you build like that your town will have a very tough time turning into a real city with local businesses and desirability if it's a bunch of parking lots and huge streets.
Man i dunno i just came from visiting germany. Stuck around the small towns. And to me it seemed better to be a oedestrian AND a driver. Towns were dense, beautiful and easy to walk. Roads were windy and narrow, many sections closed off to cars. Parking lots at peoples houses Then you drive out of the town and it felt like driving in the sticks of anywhere else, 55mph two lane roads. Then you get on the autobahn and you can go as fast as you want. And people actually move right.
>>1879410>license, registration, proof of insurance, inspection sticker, road-regulation make and model, tail lights in perfect condition, and you're going at the government-mandated speed limit. Yeah ok, big deal. License, yes very easy to get. Almost anyone who isn't disabled can get one. I got mine in High School with nearly all my classmates. Proof of insurance. Liability insurance is around $200 a year. Road registration, yeah about $50 a year. Ok. "Make and model" don't know what you mean by that. "Tail lights in perfect condition." I'm not sure what you mean by perfect. They light up when I press the breakes and the blinkers work. People don't get pulled over because they're a little scratched. Insection sticker depends on the state. My state doesn't have one. Speed limit, sure whatever, this isn't a race. 5 over 5 under no one cares.>No, traffic flow dictates that. You're in a train but with 100 other train cars. Once enough people are on the road, your decisions mean jack shit. I don't live in LA in New Jersey or something man. There's no traffic. I get on the road and drive. There are many routes I can take. Some highways, backroads etc.>That'll be $5 toll plus tax!I don't think there's a toll road in my state or the neighboring ones. If there is I don't know about it. Payed a dollar to cross a bridge in Washington about a year ago, that's the last thing I remember paying for as far as roads.
>>1879393Much cheaper to buy in bulk and store it. But Europans can't understand this as theyvhave no storage space in a 10×10 cell block apartment.
>>1879418>private propertyYou mean personal property, assuming you own your car and not the bank. Your home is owned by blackrock.
>>1879478>license, registration, proof of insurance, inspection sticker, road-regulation make and model, tail lights in perfect condition, and you're going at the government-mandated speed limitThat guy sounds like he's either 16 years old or some guy who never leaves the house. Any adult worth anything knows that it's easily worth all of those things to have the freedom to drive to wherever you want whenever you want.
>>1879492They're not even all difficult to have.>licenseSame as an ID card, you should have this in your wallet>registrationLiterally just a sticker on the car>proof of insurancekept in the glovebox, if you don't get pulled over you can put this in and forget about it for the next six months>inspection stickeralso a sticker that stays on the car>road-regulation make and modelThis is not going to be a problem if you have a real car that hasn't had its insides gutted out for unsafe bullshit>tail lights in perfect conditionThey're wired-up lights that have to get replaced every four years or so and not that hard to replace>government-mandated speed limitRealistically only if you're in Podunkville with no way to get funds except for speeders
>>1879492Yeah or someone that has never been to America and only knows this from trash Youtube. He might not understand that in America you can have a car even if you're in pretty severe poverty. Also, traffic really isn't a problem outside of major cities, and the US isn't short on rural. I mean pretty much all of middle America, far north, hell even the southwest outside of the coast.
>>1879483The 520 acres of prime Wyoming countryside granddad purchased after the war is owned by blackrock?
>>1878490Bad thread basically nobody prefers this, ignore any people above larping. The federal government subsidized shitty fiscally and socially destructive building practices and industry leaders put pressure on them to do the same. Now, most Americans don't know any better, and in most places public transit sucks, so its creates a negative spiral. There are places were public transit does not suck, but the base taste/idea that it is worse makes a lot of people who have only known the car not even try it/have no will to try it. Even in the shitty suburbs things could be better, but not to invoke a boogyman NIMBYS are genuinly braindead.
>>1878781Having lived in the suburbs, I on average, knew exactly one of my neighbors, and had deduced who lived on my block. I am not saying being in a city or apartment makes for "real" community, but anytime I lived in an apartment I can say I had more people looking out for me, and vice versa, and had a better sense of who people were even if I was not friends with them.
>>1879505>NIMBYS are genuinly braindeadCrying about NIMBYs is a sure sign of a retard because in real life denser housing will make land more valuable, which means they make a profit on their land. However, some people would rather keep the character of their neighborhood intact even if it means lower land values.That and you'd be surprised how self-described YIMBYs will flip out if it's development they don't like.
>>1879505I lived in a suburb at one point and the only time I spoke to strangers was when a police car would stop and ask me where I was going and what I had been up to because they weren't used to seeing (1) pedestrians whatsoever, and (2) people with skin color other than "white". This happened on a regular basis.Contrast that with city life, my last apartment building, I was on a first name basis with several of my neighbors. Irish, jewish, caribbean people, whatever, I knew their hobbies, they knew mine, we'd chat about building stuff or just personal things or music or whatever. I was honestly kind of sad to leave but in my current building, my neighbors are even friendlier. I was invited to a party upstairs my first week here, I know half the people on my floor, my neighbors will just randomly text me to say hi or to suggest we meet for lunch, it's like college but with adults from many different age groups and walks of life.I can understand if you're a farmer or your job is to maintain a nuclear missile silo but otherwise there is no good reason to live outside of a city. The people are barbaric and paranoid, there is zero sense of community and any deviation from the norm is met with implicit threats of deadly force, I think if someone told me I had to move to a place like that again I'd unironically begin planning my suicide.
>>1878727>petrosexualslmao I'm stealing this word, fuck pickuck truck petrosexuals with small dick syndrome
>>1879535in 'murica it would gasosexuals
>>1879498>you can have a car even if you're in pretty severe povertyYeah ready to fall apart and needing huge repair every fews months. Oh and no insurance.
>>1878889>when foreigners are killed en masse>he frets about the price of gasHa! That's funny 'cause it's true!Gas prices DO matter more than you!
>>1879561Depends on the car, really. Also, liability coverage can be as low as $200 a year.
>>1879469apparently according to germans their trains are worse than much of europe but i'll let a german come here and explain that, but yeah america can easily have best of both worlds but it requires stepping on a lot of wealthy SFH owners who also happen to be in the government and local council, as well as vested interests who want the future to electric cars instead of electric trains.
>>1879518I live in a fairly white neighborhood myself. The only time I see anyone considered a minority is behind the shop counter. Some Asian kids came to my door during Halloween and I saw this one black guy who lives nearby, but the rest of the town is as white as it gets.I’ve never been harassed by police though. They are very relaxed here because nothing bad ever happens. The worst thing to happen was some kids were hanging out nearby smoking pot and we told the police and it hasn’t happened since. I’ve never been harassed myself but it could be because I’m Asian and I think police don’t expect trouble from Asians in general.
>>1879518>I'm happy I live in the city, it works for me>There is no reason ANYONE should have a lifestyle different than meHow very open minded of you
>>1879518As someone that has lived in a city his entire life, your post is complete bullshit.The most interaction you get with your neighbors is hearing their screaming infants at 4am.Living in an apartment is hell.One of your neighbors decides to have his kitchen renovated?Entire week of loud noise for you. Fuck you.Parties? Fuck you.Vacuuming? Fuck you.Children running on the floor above you? Fuck you.Your car gets scratched because you don't have a garage? Fuck you.
>>1879696Let's play wheel of fortune. If everyone you meet is an asshole, ---'-- --- -------
Selfish, weak, lazy and without culture. That's why.
>>1879696Too much of a pussy to make a noise complaint>>1879699stfu you dunce
>>1879740Making noise during the day isn't illegal retard.A noise complaint will do nothing.
>>1879699What are you talking about?Is having children is being an asshole?Is having renovations at your house being an asshole?Those are normal parts of life living in an apartment, and that's why it fucking sucks.
>>1878672kind of off-topic but I actually live in Yokohama and i would just mention that you may have got the "which one is seedier" metric backwardsalso no one who can afford to live inTokyo goes to Yokohama, ever. Except the akarenga warehouses and minatomiraiin reality though kawasaki is the seediest
>>1878818yes, it iswell its not "empty" in that 0 people live there but it is "an empty shell" in the sense that a fraction of the previous population lives there
>>1879518saying that people outside of cities are barbaric and paranoid is kind of close mindedbtw i live in the worlds largest city so no i am not butthurt by your post. i am just butthurt by (formerly my fellow) americans being unwilling to listen to each other despite differing opinions and preferring to passive aggressively talk shit about one another
>>1879742Depends on the city ordinances, and what types of noise. Regardless you need to quit your bitching and buy some earbuds and a weighted blanket for your sperg ass.
>>1879743>*kid makes noise*>hey good morning john doe who lives in apartment 4F>yeah thanks same to you! btw your kid was sure having a lot of fun last night! oh no no it's fine I don't mind at all, I just love kids haha!>*kid stops making noise*wow that was hard
>>1879767You're fantasising. That's not how it goes in reality.
>>1879808What can I say, that's pretty much how it went for me. Obviously the kid isn't going to disappear from the spacetime continuum but somehow she managed to get it through to the kid to pound the floor less. If you simply can't stand any reminder whatsoever that other people exist then you should hide in your rural bunker but if it's just about unreasonable noise, there's ways to handle that like an adult without crying to the government or the board (the board actually has more power than the government)
>>1878490Eisenhower and car manufacturers at their height of growth
>>1878672>because if everyone around say, Baltimore had to take the train in daily the casualty rate would be unacceptably highSo nothing changes?
>>1879887>muh EisenhowerRevisionist history. Cars were already taking off in growth and by the time the Federal-Aid Highway Act was passed, a number of highways had been built in America, both rural and in the inner cities.
>>1878490to be fair San Fran was burnt to the ground in between pics
>>1879899I’m 90% sure that’s Kansas City, in which case they did it all to themselves
>>1879498>own some nigger bucket to ensure severe poverty perpetually
>>1878512It wasn't no reason. It's cause they are cowards with no foresight and let some bums and blacks control the centers of their cities for 70 years.
>>1878672You are mostly not wrong. But whites are such over civilized cowards they won't prove you wrong by occupying transit/take cities back from blacks.>>1878730You are not wrong, but neither is he.>>1878734Nice to see what I only found out last year by finally going there. I though d.c. region was bad.....>>1878737>we have a lot of parasitic faggotsKeep reaching for that rainbow!
>>1879561>Yeah ready to fall apart and needing huge repair every fews months.enter the immortal
>>1881595>already had the bettleEveryone have the same car that cost a penny wasnt enough of a dick waving contest.
>>1878755>mild inconveince is LE BADMany such cases
>>1879409If you believe that walk through Baltimore at night
>>1879322>le corporate appliance makes me a cowboythe absolute state of american man children
>>1878734Very nice.Now let's see Houston.
>>1878512The war and the Naperville train disaster did the railroads in.
>>1878757Yes, unfortunately we have lots of suburbs, parking lots and shit in Europe too.I moved from one of those, where I had to drive to get anywhere and I was esentially in house arrest during my early childhood, to the city center of Barcelona.It was the best decision of my life and I will never be glad that my parents decided living in an inacessible suburb thought was a good idea."but we have a swimming pool!" Shut the fuck up, I wanna hang out with my friends, and I can't do that because I have to cross a couple of car-only roads on my bike to get anywhere. I almost got run over once when I was 13, never again.
>>1878595This. it's only a good option for cities where each of these waiting times is under 5 minutes. >>1878781>I live in one of those "modern" commie blocksHow is it? Can you compare them to old commie blocks? I thought about upgrading to a new one but this sounds like the only quality that would increase significantly is the rent.>>1879506That's just because in areas with more people its more likely to find some you really like. Just more options. There are more people living in my block than in my aunts entire village. In smaller towns there's more pressure to get to know more people though, no one gives a shit if you try to be social or not in a city. The people that win the social game are the ones that grew up in and never move out of one of those incest villages where everyone knows you and your parents since birth.>there is no good reason to live outside of a cityNature. Cheap ass huge gardens. Not nearly as many possibilities for bullshit and shitty internet so you might do something worthwile like breeding rare chickens or whatever.
>>1881592lmao, the fear over that is what caused cities to be ruined, instead of dealing with crime and funding social programs so that ghettos weren't a thing, americans initiated white flight into car centric suburbs and irreversibly fucked their urban design for decades
>>1882030I graduated eight years ago and have been working since then, life is pretty good.
>>1878490I don't prefer car-centric cities. I like the city to be walkable, and the burbs and countryside to be drivable. I would also like public transportation to be better but no one uses it because the poors are just so bad here.
>>1882031Ghettoes existed long before the car and suburbs
>>1878490To avoid being around d lumpenproles since we don't do enough class segregation.
>>1882031> instead of dealing with crimeThat's racist now according to basically every other urban American DA.> funding social programs so that ghettos weren't a thing, American ghettos have spent decades proving themselves to be money vacuums that produce the same results regardless of how much you dump in.
>>1882058The suburbs siphon money from cities. Who do you think is obligated to perform all that infrastructure upkeep?
>>1882074Tax payers who live in the suburbs, they are net positives unlike smelly pooskins and leftoid urbanites.
>>1878490Why can't public transportation and cars coexist?It not about what we like.Corporations dictate policy.
>>1878842He fucking robbed the US railroads.Railroads were forced to work for free in WW2 which is why most failed.
>>1879518Most of my time in the city was spent with Puerto Rican drug dealers.
>>1882085AhahahahaOh wait you’re serious?
>>1882104Leftism and pooskins have always been a drain on society.
>>1878490they don't but government in America can't do anything efficiently. Every project is an omnibus with other shit tacked on just to spend the most amount of money and grease the most amount of palms.
>>1878490>car-centricMeaningless buzzword. Every city has cars, every city has neighborhoods that may or may not be dense.
>>1882506You're right, it's a meaningless buzzword. There is no difference between these pictures.
>>1882614Like I said, there can be neighborhoods that are angled more toward walking than driving, but neighborhoods aren't cities. If there really was a difference, you wouldn't be comparing bourgeoisie near-downtown areas/tourist areas with the suburbs. You're not going to compare downtown Houston with its light rail, narrow streets, and streetside development with suburban Venice sprawl with newly-built Burger Kings and gas stations, you're going to conveniently ignore the greater economic engine with cars and trucks and the distribution centers, warehouses, and other economies-of-scale buildings that allow the "walkable neighborhoods" to have the lifestyle they do.
>>1882644>car hells somehow support carless heaven.....no.
>>1882085Then they should swap places and the undesirables should be pushed to the margins of society geographically to match.
>>1878490There are something like 25+ countries in Europe who have established boarders after centuries of fighting whereas the United States bum-rushed and claimed nearly the entire southern half of the continent in less than 100 years. The reason we have car-centric cities is because we want to develop as much land as possible.
>>1882694the united states was in it's current form sans alaska and hawaii before the first car hit the market, the US was for most of it's history a railroad and canal country (with wagon roads like every european country)
Because American cities are dirty and dangerous. That's why most people with money mass migrated to suburbs in the 1950-80's, and still continue at a smaller rate in MOST American cities (excluding NYC, LA etc, which are only increasing in population due to immigration btw; natives are leaving in record numbers).Cities are catered to cars because not many people with jobs in the city actually lives in the city. US cities are built to receive cars from the suburbs.If you want US cities to become pedestrian/bike/public transport friendly, you first need to bring people back to the cities, and people are staying in their quiet suburbs until the cities are safe and clean like Europe/Asian cities.Adjust your priorities.
tbt to a few years ago to when i got banned from this sub for talking about land use policy because somehow it's not related to /n/
>>1882820This may change with work from home, actually. You're right we essentially built highways as conduits from suburbs to the city, but now that businesses are shifting away from in person office spaces (or severely downsizing it) cities will no longer have to cater to suburban commuters. Of course, at the same time cities are going to lose hundreds of billions of dollar in real estate tax income and spending by suburbanites. So basically US cities are going to get bad, real bad real soon. We're talking within the next 5-10 years we'll probably see mass defaults -> bankruptcies on most major US metros not too dissimilar to what detroit went through, during which they're going to demolish most of the unprofitable areas of the cities, which is basically going to be most places outside of the historical central urban cores. After which cities will have to be extremely careful what infrastructure they build, income will no longer be concentrated in a few corporate buildings, but across the entire city.>If you want US cities to become pedestrian/bike/public transport friendly, you first need to bring people back to the citiesNo you don't you're just spouting nonsense. You just need to remove suburbs as a source of income for cities, then it'll no longer make sense to build car centric infrastructure at all. We can then essentially divorce everything in cities from the suburbs, once you no longer have suburban commuters multi-lane highways no longer make sense, and then you can remove highway interchanges from urban cores, with no more parking needed for office real estate (basically the only thing profitable about US cities) you just tear it all up an infill, then public transit starts to make sense. During all this the suburbs can continue what they're doing idgaf whatever it may be. Cities are woefully unpreparted for work from home, already it's reducing commuting by like 50%, and that's gonna go up to 70, 80, 90% even.
>>1882831It seems like in the future you describe (work-from-home, less commuting between suburbs and cities, Cities losing tons of money), there won't be any cities left standing in America in the coming decades.I don't have any strong reasons to disagree. It's a very possible future. Once everything is done on the computer and internet, and logistics becomes very decentralized and efficient (Online shopping), there's no strong practical reason to have cities anymore. When office spaces become irrelevant, the only thing left for cities to uniquely offer is "look guys we have a cool cultural center please hang out here," and even this is threatened by online entertainment becoming bigger every decade. I know a lot of people that would rather watch something on their computer than go to a [cool building/restaurant in the city]. But of course I only hang out with nerds so take my anecdotal evidence with some doubt.Also some people live in cities because they want to live in a place with a lot of people, but internet is bringing the world closer and closer as well, without the need to pay $3000/month to live in a tiny apartment.Are cities obsolete?
>>1882820>>1882831Also remember we essentially tried to fit a suburban model onto an urban frame post WWII. Low density development is not profitable, and if any other country tried to do what America did they'd fail and the suburbs would collapse in on themselves. Suburbia (and car centric infrastructure) has always been propped up by by taxing US corporations. It's a balancing act, the more their income got concentrated in urban centers, the more they could afford to abuse land. After companies have canceled leases and office spaces abandoned, what will they have? Pretty much nothing. So much shit is going to be abandoned, but that's natural in the course of history.
>>1882839> there won't be any cities left standing in America in the coming decades.No, they'll just trim a fuck ton of fat. It's impossible to simply "wipe a city off the planet", some people want to live in density and be around brick and mortar, and that will never change. Some people don't want to live in suburbs. Sure cities will take a massive hit, undergo bankruptcy, tear down a bunch of shit, etc. Once it all shakes out they'll be much smaller and denser, but better. >there's no strong practical reason to have cities anymore.>Are cities obsolete?No. They'll still have tourism, arguably that'll incentivize them to be even better places to live, just to attract more tourism to make up lost income.
>>1882842>No, they'll just trim a fuck ton of fat.This will most likely be a very slippery slope with tons of grease applied on the floor. Some cities might "trim the fat" with control and steady pace, but many other cities will pull a Detroit/Baltimore and chop their heads off by accident because they slipped while trying to quickly chop off their belly fat with a dull axe. Budget cuts are super nasty and often chaotic, but add a giant slow-to-act bureaucratic city government into the mix, and it's going to suck. This chaos may cause an endless cycle of migrations and lower profits in cities until they're empty husks. Besides the famous examples of Baltimore and Detroit, America is already full of empty "zombie cities" that turned into ghettos (especially in the Midwest and Rust Belt). We already know what can happen to cities with no moneyI think we may be underestimating just how strong the internet will be for culture and society. A lot of gen-X'ers complain that kids these days are in their own "virtual island" looking down at their phones all day long; the future will be stationary people preferring everything at their fingertips, not brick-and-mortar visits. Physical buildings will still play a part, but it will be much less desired or important for our pleasure or entertainment. >Once it all shakes out they'll be much smaller and denser, but better. At what point does a "much smaller and denser" city stop being a city?
>>1882839>When office spaces become irrelevant, the only thing left for cities to uniquely offer is "look guys we have a cool cultural center please hang out here,"Less office spaces and more niche shops and cultural events would make me like cities way more. But yeah, they'll get poorer and with being poor comes the dirt and chaos. Which I also like in moderation on visits but I wouldn't move to live there.
>>1879561>Yeah ready to fall apart and needing huge repair every fews months. Oh and no insurance.Is this why you retards ride the bus? You're literally too stupid to not get ripped off owning a car?My insurance is $200 every 6 monthsMy car cost me $1800 and everything is cheap and can be repaired for like $50, it's a honda so it lasts forever too.The benefits of owning the car outweigh the "costs" by a long shot.
Driving a 15mpg car is literally cheaper than taking mass transit for the same travel distance. This is in the United States.
>>1879427>many small towns have fallen apart due to falling for the car memeNo they haven't and the original small towns became a multiple county megalopolis from 50 years ago. >big cities not so much besides detroit, essentially they only survived due to some healthy manufacturing industry in that area so people had their big houses and wonderful suburban lifeThey only survive and grow do to office space leasing. Manufacturing in the U.S. had been dead for more than 30 years. All the cities that are growing don't have an ounce of industrial manufacturing. Even our high tech sectors are slowly dying because they no longer make the electronics to sell. There are no jobs to work in Detroit, that is why the houses there are vacant and undeveloped because that land no longer has value. All the GM plants in that area are pretty much gone. Ford only makes broken garbage if anything at all backordered on paper. Chrysler is Fiat and cars made in Canada.
>>1878490Protection from wild/rabid niggers and homelessFamiliarityComfortControlSpeedSunken costConformityAll these come with a caveat for "in certain situations, this isn't so." But for every one category above you win, you'll likely lose on the others. Case goes:Protection from wild/rabid niggers and homeless. This is the big one. Ignore all other shit, this is where they'll fight you on without saying it. For every blm protest/carjacking, there's ten headlines about someone getting beaten up on the bus. Familiarity- obviousComfort- barring a really nice train, it's hard to beat a car. No exertion, either.Control/power- you're in charge of a multi-ton death machine. This makes you feel important. Marketing is also a big part of this.Speed. Sadly, even on days with traffic jams, and with bike lanes pretty much the whole way, I generally "tie" my bike time on the way home (is uphill). And if there's low traffic? I do even better.Control/flexibility- What if they forgot something, or have to alter their destination, halfway through? On a car, you just take a different turn. On a bus, you have to hop off and grab a connector, or snag an uber if there's no good connector. A bike's not so bad, but if you forgot your panniers you're hosed.Sunken cost- cars are expensive. Then you have to register them. Then you have to insure. You look at the fare and you think "gas is less than that." You don't think about how much you spent getting a car/insurance/maintenance/etc.,Conformity- "The poor use the bus." Plus, what 'ties us together' is pumping gas, whining about gas prices, the car making a weird noise, etc., This is why they always say 'grow up, get a car,' etc., it's conformity-pressure, driven by marketing.Disclaimer: I ride my bike to/from work, most days.
>>1878490They usually come in from places in the middle of nowhere where cars are the only feasible option, and want to continue in their cars to their urban destination.
>>1883001>My insurance is $200 every 6 monthsdoubt.xcf
>>1882694Literally in every state the overwhelming majority of population is in a few cities or metro areas with the rest being barren wasteland.
>>1883390I've had $25/mo insurance. Good record + cheap shitbox + basic liability coverage.
>>1883106So basically your objections to urbanism boil down to "I hate black people"?
>>1883390I pay like 175$ a year.
>>1882841>Low density development is not profitable, and if any other country tried to do what America did they'd fail and the suburbs would collapse in on themselvesCities and suburbs are separate municipalities in 95% of cases, so that theory is already wrong. Also, even in Europe, you have the case of one city and several smaller municipalities (calling them "suburbs" is a bit misleading since they're often as old as the core city). Even Amsterdam has a dozen of them.
Just boar a base tunnel through The Rocky Mountains, for a zero-emissions high-speed rail system to travel through. It will be worth a thousand highway lanes.
>>1878490Our preferences don't matter, our automobile industry hegemons decide what the infrastructure will look like and feed us propaganda to accept it.
>>1878512>but they chooseNobody asked us, faggot. Billionaires did what they wanted to do and nobody has the power to stop them since all the politicians have been in their pocket from the start. We don't get a vote on how cities are designed, we don't get asked if we want a highway run through our backyards, the entire government is a completely segregated world from real people.Bill Gates said he's going to release genetically modified mosquitoes in Florida. Who gave him permission to do that? When did Floridians get asked if they wanted fucking cyborg mosquitoes? Who is going to stop him? Nobody.
>>1878490during the early 20th century, the big four car manufacturers lobbies state and local governments to make their cities more accessible for their cars, making it required in American culture you needed a car
>>1878512blame car manufacturer lobbies
>>1882104Which one of these groups is in the suburbs?
>>1878532Huh, GOB was in the right turn only lane. Car driver not at fault.
>Those living in urban areas tend to take home less money, according to the survey. Nearly 60% of those living in cities make less than $50,000; nearly 30% earn between $50,000 and $100,000 and only 11% earn more than $100,000. In the suburbs, a little less than half earn less than $50,000, 34% bring home between $50,000 and $100,000, and nearly 20% make more than $100,000.Urbanite sisters.. I don't feel so good........
>>1884091They own nothing and they are seething
>Homeownership and car ownership usually go hand — it makes sense then, that more of those living in the suburbs than the city own a car. Suburban-dwellers also spend slightly more on transportation — more than half spend $100 to $250 a month and only a quarter spend less than $50 a month, compared to 30% of those living in urban areas.Urbanite sisters.. how can this be?
>suburboids have pay out the ass to go places because businesses would rather operate where the rich people areWowe what an L
>>1883762>Cities and suburbs are separate municipalities in 95% of casesWhat the fuck are you talking about? I'm saying that cities in post WWII America embraced low density development, which isn't profitable. It's bleeding cities dry. This has nothing to do with the suburbs, though the suburbs are still subsidized by the state as well.
>More than half ofcity-dwellersconsider themselves poor or working class, according to a recent INSIDER andMorning Consultsurvey.Urbanite sisters.. what's happening?
>>1884104Yeah, all those "cities in post WWII America" were already locked up in terms of their city borders and literally couldn't expand anymore. Look at almost any major city in America post-WWII. The population plummeted or ground to a halt because the suburbs were not part and never part of the city.
>>1884104>low density development, which isn't profitable"Any day now! Any day now it's all going to come crashing down! Just you wait and see! 75+ years of continued suburbanization means nothing!">It's bleeding cities dry.Your kind says the same thing. You'll brag about how cities concentrate wealth and all the money is in dense cities, then in another thread you clutch pearls over cities being 'bled dry'; it's all so tiresome.
>>1884097>spending more to get around and being locked into payments, insurance, gas money and maintenance is a good thing because... it just is okay!is this board being raided by /o/ or something?
>>1884109>colonize autistic but harmless train board for your own bullshit>shit things up with radical anti-personal transit agenda>delude yourself into thinking that there's some pro-automobile conspiracy that's fighting against you
>>1884111I'm not doing any of that just pointing out that you are clearly some kind of tourist, if you hate public transit why the fuck are you here? and don't pretend like you aren't with your disingenuous garbage posting about how cars are your personal right and freedom.
>>1884108>You'll brag about how cities concentrate wealth and all the money is in dense citiesBecause they do? In Europe the further you go into a city's center, the higher the income of the resident, mainly because the city center is the most desirable place to live. In the US the opposite is the case. The densest developments are always, ALWAYS the most profitable developments because you minimize stuff like utilities costs and road upkeep and maximize occupancy.>then in another thread you clutch pearls over cities being 'bled dry'See above. Low density is bleeding either the municipalities dry. The suburbs are bleeding the state/federal government dry.>"Any day now! Any day now it's all going to come crashing down! Just you wait and see! 75+ years of continued suburbanization means nothing!"Unironically just look at the US debt clock and this is obviously true. I don't get how you can support the suburban model given how quickly the US is financially failing. Urbanism is fiscal responsibility.The suburbs didn't fail (immediately) in America because when they were built America was by far the biggest manufacturer in the world, both the wealthiest and most developed with the biggest corporations. That's no longer true. You need wealth surplus for suburbs to be viable in the first place, which the stagnating income of the average American should flash red in your mind.
>>1884116Discussion needs opposing opinions. It seems small minded of you to reject arguments that speak in favour of the topic, when the whole thread is about it. Why do you even go into a thread about urban design centered about cars if you don't want to hear any pro car arguments?
>>1884109>spending more to get aroundEvery body does.>being locked into paymentsI bought cash. >insuranceShould be mandatory for cyclists too. >gas moneyTaxation is an issue, not resource cost. Abolish taxation. >maintenanceDIY and bikes need maintenance too.
>>1884119>because you minimize stuff like utilities costs and road upkeepYou must think "less asphalt/less pipe = overall cheaper." Just an overly simplified idea that fits your preferred narrative. The cost to build and maintain utilities in cities is exponentially more expensive than in the suburbs or the sticks. Sad if you took the bait from a years-old image taken from an urbanism blog, but that's not reality. Working on or building infrastructure in an urban locale is going to be more expensive than a suburban or rural location.>The suburbs didn't fail (immediately) in AmericaCorrect. They never failed. Suburbs have existed for most of a century now, and if they were unprofitable that would have been either fixed by now or we'd have already moved on to something else.
>>1884121I don't not want to hear them, but your "arguments" are mostly spamming about poor people and blacks as if that's actually going to change my opinion. I've yet to hear why cars are good for society overall besides your personal individualism.
>>1884122>>insurance>Should be mandatory for cyclists too.if it was proportional to average damage caused cyclist insurance would be like $100 a year and mostly just be to cover the bike, so sure.>Taxation is an issue, not resource cost. Abolish taxation. oh you're a libertarian, that's why you hate public transit, it doesn't make super high profits. hope you enjoy those highly taxed and subsidized roads and fuel costs.
>>1884127>I've yet to hear why cars are good for societyAnswer:>personal individualism
>>1884127I am not that guy thoIn my area, the efficiency of commuting by public transport is just horrible. That is not in the US, but in Europe. While in bigger cities its mostly working, everywhere else it sucks. The problem with them being full of the scum of society is another problem in itself, but thats mostly buses. High speed trains are on average not even faster than using the car and just laughably expensive. And I don't want to rely on bus schedules - I wish to go and leave when I want to.Aside from the thing that I like cars and motorsports as personal interest, I can imagine myself commuting either with a small motorcycle or bicycle if it works good. I got myself a roadbike and hopefully I will put it to good use. About the infrastructure - people vote with their wallet. If 95% of the people choose to use a car as their main transportation method, you should accomodate that. And nothing will really change their mind. The car is just the fastest and most comfortable method to get to places, while taking people and cargo with you. The real problem we face is cars becoming unnecessarily big and heavy. Cars could be incredibly efficient by now but the market gets dictated by truckolds and karen cuckovers.
>>1884128>damage causedEven a simple broken fender or mirror can cost thousands today. Mandatory insurance would be more expensive and rightfully so. >highly taxed and subsidized roads and fuel costs.Fuel is not subsidized, it is taxed. Roads are paid for by car owners through various taxes and fees. It is the public transportation users and cyclists who need to step up and start paying.
>>1884126>less asphalt/less pipe = overall cheaper.Correct.>The cost to build and maintain utilities in cities is exponentially more expensive than in the suburbs or the sticks.Also correct, but you don't understand my point. Cities are more expensive, but they return a net income to the city when suburbs do not. With the way the US land tax is set up suburbs don't bring in nearly enough to compensate for the cost to the state and city governments. Hence why cities subsidize the suburbs, the money has to come from somewhere.>Suburbs have existed for most of a century now, and if they were unprofitable that would have been either fixed by nowHAHAHAHAHAHAH you don't get it do you? It's not getting fixed because the government just takes out more debt to keep them afloat. Also there's some auto/oil industry interests going on which disincentivizes politicians from touching the issue at all. A US default IS the end of the suburbs as we know it.
>>1884139>Correct.In your mind, the material cost is most of the total cost of a public works project.>but they return a net income to the city when suburbs do not. Wrong. The US wouldn't continue suburbanization if it was a net money loser.>HAHAHAHAHAHAH you don't get it do you?Foreigner "knows" how America works>It's not getting fixed because the government just takes out more debt to keep them afloat.So the government takes on debt... to not fix the roads? Weird argument>A US default IS the end of the suburbs as we know it."Any day now! Don't say I didn't warn ya!"
>>1884141>The US wouldn't continue suburbanization if it was a net money loser.You're NOT FUCKING LISTENING like holy shit.Suburbs have ALWAYS been a net drain financially, always. But way, way back in the 1950s America had industry and corporate taxes which could keep the suburbs afloat for at least a while. As time went on Industry and globalization left because single family housing inflates labor costs, but the suburbs remained. America had a fuck ton of existing infrastructure which was sapping money, so the government just started piling on debt. Suburbanization is continuing because nobody changed the policies, remember housing is controlled mainly at a local level, the feds or even the state have practically 0 say in how local housing is regulated. But the fed and states KNOW it's a drain, they know it, but they don't have political power to change it.
>>1884144>Suburbs have ALWAYS been a net drain financially, always.No. We'd be doing something completely different en masse if they weren't a net gain overall. Btw, suburbanization started well before the 1950s.>remember housing is controlled mainly at a local level, the feds or even the state have practically 0 say in how local housing is regulated>but they don't have political power to change itLolLmaoHUDFHAand of course changing or making policy itself through laws, dumbass
>>1884130>While in bigger cities its mostly working, everywhere else it suckshighly regional, perhaps you live in ireland or australia or something? this is not the case everywhere>High speed trains are on average not even faster than using the carabsolutely untrue unless your car trip is on a route the HSR isn't even going and you have to take a connector train, any true HSR (min 250km/h) will be faster than any vehicle, even if it is somehow slower, it will be within 1/2 hour (usually it's more like 1-2 hours faster) which to me is preferable to having to drive. >If 95% of the people choose to use a car as their main transportation method, you should accomodate thatnot really how it should work, they do it because it's the easiest method due to the way things are currently designed, this is what induced demand is.>The car is just the fastest and most comfortable method to get to placesI disagree, I like my car but a train is usually faster if properly built and way more comfortable for long distance trips, you can sit down, read, eat food, even go on your laptop with wifi etc.
>>1884157>this is what induced demand is.NTA but you're just trading one induced demand for another then, and spending trillions the process
>>1884159it's true that both transit and car infrastructure bring induced demand, what matters is that transit is so many multitudes more efficient at moving people (as well as scalable by adding more trains) that it's WAY easier to meet demand (especially if you start early and in a place that isn't already congested as fuck), cars are such a terrible way at moving a lot of people that they will never meet the demands of any decently sized city alone, especially if you don't want your city to be 50% highways and parking lots.
>>1884161I was kidding. "Induced demand" is a myth that is used to generate clicks.
>>1884167it's true though, it's not a myth at all, the reason it's a huge issue for cars is exactly the reason I describe, their massive use of space means it's almost impossible to meet demand with any amount of population density.
>>1884168>it's not a myth at allYes it is. There is only demand.
>>1884170creating any type of transportation infrastructure encourages (and sometimes forces) people from other modes of transportation.
>>1884172Real life doesn't work like Simcity
>>1884182do you have proof that highway construction doesn't induce demand for people to drive?
>>1884184You can't prove a negative
>>1884155The HUD and FHA regulate mortgages and funding, but they can't actually change how housing is built at the local level. Remember land use and zoning is a MUNICIPAL responsibility, not a federal one. The HUD and offer funding incentives for certain types of development, but they can't force the state/city to do anything.>We'd be doing something completely different en masse if they weren't a net gain overall.Well cities are switching away from single family zoning incredibly slowly, it just took time.
>>1884190>The HUD and FHA regulate mortgages and funding, but they can't actually change how housing is built at the local level.They can and do. You originally said:>"remember housing is controlled mainly at a local level, the feds or even the state have practically 0 say in how local housing is regulated. But the fed and states KNOW it's a drain, they know it, but they don't have political power to change it." Which is untrue at any level of government. All of them can control housing policy. But since suburban cities aren't going bankrupt left and right, nor are their parent cities, it sort of signals that your narrative isn't real.>Well cities are switching away from single family zoning incredibly slowlyYes certainly--some are, in select places. Single family detached construction starts still dwarf all other types of residential construction though.
>>1878490>this thread againCar industry lobbied to get away with all kinds of bs that benefited them and punished the alternatives. Also, Americans were brainwashed into worshiping cars.
>>1878672Ok but then why are >99% white small towns still covered in surface parking and strip malls
>>1884193They're not going bankrupt because the government is taking on debt, like I said. Cities are the ones who determine how the land is used and zoned, the feds create funding incentives and mortgage appraisals for property taxes. You can't change how a land is zoned by appraising properties.
>>1879322You have been psyopped by big oil and car companies to believe that being forced to buy a car + license + registration + repairs + tires + car washes + tolls + parking + 50 other upkeep expenses = freedom and independence.
>>1879393Americans largely consume processed or frozen food so they don't have to worry about stuff rotting or going bad. So they can buy Lay's chips and pizza rolls in bulk every couple months and not have to make trips to the store often.
>>1884126>The cost to build and maintain utilities in cities is exponentially more expensive than in the suburbs or the sticksThere are actually people that haven't yet grasped the concept of "per capita".>>1884141>The US wouldn't continue suburbanization if it was a net money loser.>>1884155>We'd be doing something completely different en masse if they weren't a net gain overall."It is happening therefore it must be right." Appeal to authority, a level of thinking befitting of a meek woman.There are entire institutions proving over and over again that low density development is mostly a net loss. They literally sell this information to save towns from bankruptcy. One of the many reasons this idea isn't gaining wide adoption is because of inert policy and because those who determine how the city is developed just so happen to live in neighborhoods where this idea would increase their tax twofold and would rather just continue this veiled welfare program for the rich.You are naive beyond belief if you think politics, money and power have nothing to do with this.
>>1879346>I don't know where you got those delusional numbers from>>1879388>The "cars are subsidized reeee" argument comes from-Germany:https://www.heise.de/news/Studie-Strassenverkehr-deckt-Kostenbedarf-nur-zu-36-Prozent-6196574.htmlNot covering the cost of externalities and the income from traffic policing.US:https://taxfoundation.org/state-infrastructure-spending/Not covering the cost of externalities.Funny how the supposedly overtaxed 'Commiefornia' seems to be doing the exact opposite of socialism and simply makes drivers cover the entire cost of roads.https://publicinterestnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Who-Pays-for-Roads-vUS.pdfVery eye opening read if anyone is truly interested.Mentions and comments on externalities but doesn't count them toward the main figures starting page 17(21).
>>1878503they're shit and the only reason they still exist is because people think they'll solve problems that cars created in the first place
Cars fuck up the beauty of cities and encourage big company fucks to create soulless architecturedestroy all cars and bring back beautiful cities
>>1879417Post closet apartment/corrugated metal shitbox house.
>>1879483>Personal propertyGo crawl back into whatever leftoid anarchiddie asscrack you slithered your way out of.
>>1884276>roads are 36% covered>rail is 1/16 covered>cycling not covered at allYeah, public transportation needs a steep price increase and cyclists need to be taxed.
>>1879417>Homeownership and car ownership usually go hand — it makes sense then, that more of those living in the suburbs than the city own a car.Seething poor rent cuck
>>1884239>You can't change how a land is zoned by appraising properties.Your original post made no mention of zoning though, just housing.>>1884257>Appeal to authority, a level of thinking befitting of a meek woman.Ad hom. You lose.
>>1884122I agree, abolish taxes.Let's see who maintains those roads and with what funds.
>>1884707Let's see who maintains public transportation and builds bike lanes with what funds.
>>1884085>I'll take one culture, please. >That'll be $19.
>>1878490Because they have a choice. In much of Europe most people who aren't gay biketards agree that the lack of proper car infrastructure is a problem
>>1884721>If we exclude everyone who disagrees with me, everyone agrees with me!Who'd have thought it...
>>1884721>Because they have a choicejust because it's physically possible to ride a bike in all american cities doesn't mean it's a good idea. or take a poorly funded bus system that takes you nowhere near your destination on a 30 minute schedule.
>>1878672Every time race is mentioned, it seems like Americans forget that Europe isn't full of ethnostates. Works here despite some cities being ¼ or ⅓ immigrants.
>>1878792Yeah, whenever someone questions the car-centric suburban lifestyle, people bring up muh commieblocks as if there isn't an in-between with proper zooming laws. Or that car brains immediately feel people attacked when you even so much as imply that other infrastructure might be better for other people. Then they either come up with the worst case scenarios to justify their urgent need for one or more cars. "What if you need to do groceries in a blizzard?" Like I can't improvise and procrastinate my groceries.
>>1879591The actual trains are pretty good if they run and if they run on time. The problem is that many aren't punctual or get canceled. Like when a train is say 30 minutes late, the operating company will just decide to have it skip the last three stops so that it's punctual again on its way back. Sucks to be one of the people who wanted to take it.On top of that ticket prices have also just been climbing up and up, especially since it has been privatised. Meanwhile infrastructure is a bit aged and sometimes to sparce to accomodate the trains going through. For example when I commuted between Bremen and Hamburg for a year, our train had to stop on half the trips to let a long distance train pass by it.However, the whole system is still useable imo. Just don't expect to be on time when using it.
>>1884108The US looks like it's slowly but surely crumbling away no matter where I look. Suburbia is just one of many aspects of that. It won't actually go bankrupt as a whole, cause it's still wealthy and has nukes, but I don't see it growing out of it's role as the global butt joke as the nation of perceived exceptionalism and ignorance.
>>1884707>>1884712>MFW in anarcho-capitalism only the most economically efficient paths of transport will developSingletrack XC and gravel cycling at best as the only mode of transport? Sign me the fuck up.
>>1884897*blocks your path* nothing personal
>>1884907Cannot cross singletrack.
>>1884922That thing goes everywhere and unimogs everything.
>>1884930Do you know what a singletrack is?
>>1884932It's okay to get MOGGED by Unimog. Accept it, appreciate it, you will feel better.
>>1884947>driving straight and not crossThis is like a retard cyclist driving straight into tram tracks and flopping.
>>1878781You've obviously never lived in a typical US suburb. You rarely see your neighbours, let alone Interact with them.
>>1884882>whenever someone questions the car-centric suburban lifestyle>feel attackedAre you fucking kidding me? The moment any pushback to anti-personal vehicle rhetoric, out comes the "you don't need a car, you can just attach a wagon to your bike for the kids!", "no, you can take a mattress on a bus, people don't mind!", "um, ACTUALLY, um, sweaty, the suburbs are subsidized, now if you just watch this youtube video and don't question it", "uh uh highways are bad because of induced demand or something", without any room for argument or debate.
>>1885062this is usually the point in the conversation where they stop replying to you directly and instead post meta quips ostensibly not directed towards anyone in particular but actually intended for you
>>1885062the reason people respond like that is because the points people bring up in favor of cars being necessary is mostly extremely specific and not general to most people's daily lives, especially stupid statements like>uh so you are saying that tradesmen should carry all their tools on a bike???when that was never said and obviously isn't the target of walking, biking and transit focused infrastructure.
>>1884236Because they're wrong and just want an excuse to be racist, duh
>>1884161That's total bulshit. Transit is barely clocking 10% of passenger miles, while cars are clocking 90%. It's transit whixh can't meet demand, only car meet demand. Transit share is marginal, you can ban transit overnight and society would do ok after. Ban car and transportation collapses. FACT.And it's easily understandable why transit can't meet demand, because you can't send bus to every door step at request. Only over few rare routes.
>>1885311>Transit is barely clocking 10% of passenger miles, while cars are clocking 90%.>It's transit whixh can't meet demand, only car meet demand.See the thing is in order for public transit to meet demand there actually has to be enough of it built. You're complaining about it not meeting demand when American public transit explicitly wasnt created to meet demand. Studies have shown time and time again public transit has far higher capacity compared to physical footprint.>you can't send bus to every door step at request.Maybe if we actually planned our cities, rather than shitting out some suburbs we could make every residence within a 5 minute walking distance of commuter rail or a tram line.
>>1884873I think Europe is still less "racist" than the US structurally, but that is because Europe itself wasn't an actual colony. Europe IS racist and has a bunch of immigrants from Africa and the ME right now, but that is also relatively recent for much of Europe. America's whole history has been pivoting around its internal racial conflict. So while Europe rebuilt in the post-war period as a walkable and transit oriented continent, America which had no war damage whatsoever just decided to rebuild itself as a car oriented country, and it coincided with the rise of white suburban enclaves. I think a part of the reason "walkability" is rising as a topic is exactly because millenials and zoomers are a lot less racist than their parents and grandparents, and also the increasing dissolution of family culture in America means more and more millenials have decided to not have kids, so the marketing pitch of the quiet family suburb isn't very appealing compared to wanting to live amongst the amenities and comforts of the city. The whole thing is synergizing to create the discontent, millenials also have traveled a lot more and they're now upset because they feel like their city living is sub-par compared to international standards. It's more expensive (not just in rents, since that isnt always the case, but mainly in terms of transportation expenses), it's dirty, it's inconvenient. This is even heightening urban millenial anti-racism, because they feel like the collateral damage of the suburban racists. The topic of homeless people migrating around frequently comes up in city debates about new light rails and shit like that, which people know is about the vagrant black people still filling many city centers. Projects get shot down by anxious homeowners over that stuff, and it just causes the urban millenials to be outraged because they often already live in gentrified areas right next to these homeless people, so they're used to it.
>>1885360To add to that: Many millenials also simply can't afford the suburban home they parents bought. The sheer notion of homeowner ship is a joke to many cause they either live paycheck to paycheck or have to pay off some student loan before even thinking about buying a house. But even if they had some relatively well paying job and no debt, it still sounds foolish since house prices are ridiculously high at the moment. I also know of someone who's simply jealous of me and some other Yuros who can do their groceries in 15~20 minutes and on foot.
>>1885383>zone 90% of your land to have no more than 3 households per acre>homes within any reasonable distance from anywhere worthwhile become unreasonably expensive>the only affordable homes are the ones where you spend a tenth of your time and a fifth of your income on driving>to cut corners, build homes out of cardboard
>>1884161>(as well as scalable by adding more trains)Not really, because every station has a certain amount of people it can move just on a physical basis, and while you could add more trains, there's still only a small window of time during the day where that's actually useful.
>>1884172>creating any type of transportation infrastructure encourages (and sometimes forces) people from other modes of transportation.Road infrastructure is less "induced demand" and more "rebalancing" other roadways. A well-designed avenue could take stress off of small streets that are being used as roads (a true "stroad" if ever there was one) or take control of local traffic instead of jumping on the highway. Similarly, a highway could take pressure off of avenues and parkways.
>>1885529You forgot>import millions of 3rd worlders to keep wages low
>>1885579Anon, check the southbound lane.
>>1885354>American public transit>Maybe if we actually planned our citiesEU you didn't plan their cities, "organic grows" is shit.
>>1884712Public transport benefits everyone, car-centric infrastructure benefits welfare queen car niggers only. I don't want to subsidize welfare queen cagers.
>>1885642Objectively untrue. City transit systems only benefit a relatively small area but are taxed on an even greater area. New York's MTA is taxed within a 100 mile radius and they definitely don't benefit from what New Yorkers enjoy.
>>1885647I don't care about your dysfunctional ameristani shithole.Besides, public transportation benefits cagers as well, imagine the traffic if all the people riding public transit were driving? Yeah, that's right.
>>1885579well ya tried kid
>>1885642>>1885664Wrong. Public transportation only benefits the seething poor. The privately owned automobile is the ultimate expression of freedom and prosperity.
>>1885675In actual literality anyone that owns a car is a poor loser.
>>1885685>t. seething poorEnjoy the ride.
>>1885686penniless loser chud detected go cry about your food stamps going down while I sip on my decaf onions mocha latte.
>>1885701><seething poor continues to seethe
>>1879518>live in city>10 minute walk from campus>coffee shop, barber, dentist, sushi place, and more on the same block>all my family in the area, sisters workplace is very close and I get free drinks there>highly ornate victorian architecture>historic neighborhood, just down the street from Al Capone's condo, and F Scott Fitzgerald's childhood home>giant ass cathedral to live in the shadow of, very Catholic neighborhood with strong family values and sense of community>everyone knows everyone >Board in the maids quarters of a mansion, $600 and rent controlled>bike lanes everywhere>aesthetic brownstones and ornate streetlights>four very different, but equally beautiful seasons>Everything you'd ever want is a short trip away, world class museums, skyscraper observation decks, night clubs, state parks, rural bike and snowshoe trails>every type of cuisine imaginable>Shitton of jobs and fortune 500 companies>very fit and educated population I love the city and I'm never leaving. so fucking cozy
>>1885686You couldn't even afford rent in the shittiest apartment in my building lmao.
>>1886014>seething poor projectionsLolLmao
>>1885968Damn this is kind of everything I'm trying to get in life. Jealous but I am glad you recognize what gifts you have anon