Where did it all go wrong?
ohhh, you know *exactly* where it all went wrong, and why. why must we persist with these charades?
Just outside of Chicago
>>1808861Not just directly subsidizing railroads to maintain limited passenger service
>>1808861even if we had an amazing train system, we would probably get some tsa tier bullshit on it at one point.
>>1808861We redesigned all of our infrastructure and cities around cars after World War II.
>>1808861short distance: private cars and buseslong distance: airplanes
>>1808861a continous failure to understand that cutting services eventually leads into a death spiral
Focus on local monorail.
Not nationalizing the railroads completely.
>>1808861The Sunset Limited services got suspended eastwards of New Orleans after Catrina in 2005, yet on every fucking map since they, even on this one from 2021, they still dot it, make the remark "suspended" on it and that's it. For years now.Is there any chance to restart the service again from/to Orlando in our lifetime? Or do they just need another two weeks? Why don't they simply admit that Fuck it, it'll never go that route again?
>>1808938>woman not wanting to move seats made mutts seethe Why are americans like this
>>1809407It's done because Congress won't let them same for perpetual southern Montana service. Blame local state governments for stalling progress and not applying for grant money.
>>1808938back to pol, whiny racist faggot
>>1809407have you not heard of amtrak's ongoing fight with csx?
>>1808912That strategy was tried and failed. California subsidized SP's Commute services from 1970 to 1984, and would have continued by SP had made it clear they wouldn't continue doing it. The company administration was solely focused on cost-cutting, consolidation and efficiency rather than gross services offered. Intermodal was the new thing and imminent deregulation meant they could merge with one of the other adjacent railroads to form a monopoly. With this problem in mind who gives a shit about the passenger trains, it's just effort used to transport retiring executives that are gonna be dead soon. Which is what happened around ~1982 when SP began talking with the state about nationalization. By 1983 all the necessary state legislation was in place, and by 1984 the counties that wanted SP properties (particularly San Mateo Co and El Dorado Co) had cut the checks.
>>1809424It's still a better idea than Amtrak
>>1809428a local utility board is hardly better than a statewide rail provider, or at least was until the early 00s
>>1809445Yes it would. Who cares what California does
>>1809422>claims familiarity with American public transportation>isn't racist
>>1808938Rent free and off-topic.>>1808946Ford and Moses have been a disaster for the human race.
>>1808921All of our stations are dogshit so with Amtrak trains you usually wait until the train arrives at the station in a lobby and then queue up at a "gate" and get your ticket checked, before walking out to the train, instead of just going to a platform used for the line (this was on the Northeast Regional so it's not like it was a niche service) as soon as you get to the station. It's fucking retarded. And they still have a conductor on board checking tickets anyways.
>>1808861Amtrak. It's a stupid organization that was created as a graveyard. Their charter should have been revoked when it became clear we weren't actually going to get rid of passenger service.1. The Northeast Corridor is its own thing and should be managed independently by the states and localities involved instead of being put in the care of a retarded, national quasi-company that has no idea what the fuck it's doing.2. There is very little reason for the state supported routes to be managed by a national organization that wants to be an airline instead of local agency that can better respond to local interests.3. Congress needs to have an honest debate about the value of long-distance routes, which are a unique entity and should be managed by Amtrak, and whether we should pay to have them. If they continue to exist Congress should have them be Amtrak's only responsibility and fund them with the understanding that they don't need to make money.There is no reason for Amtrak to be begging for federal money to improve the NEC when Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, New York, and Massachusetts could be managing and funding it themselves instead of having to depend on a random organization, and they are also ironically in a better position to seek federal funding with their combined 12 senators.
>>1810323'why can't i wait on the platform' is such a stupid JAPAN DOES IT I WANT IT-ism and i'm tired of it. it works on tiny suburban stations where there's just the one platform in either direction and no reason to install fare gates. it will not work at stations big enough to have a concourse, because by virtue of their size they will be busy enough to sometimes have platform alterations.like there's obvious safety implications for having people wandering around platforms before a train is ready. for long-distance services, trains will need cleaning and emptying before more travellers can board. there's fare enforcement and avoidance issues. there's 'the train at platform 2 will now arrive at platform 8, can you make it from 2 to 8 before it leaves? lol' issues.it's fucking stupid and isn't common at large stations for a reason, but, like that ever stopped the Transit Youtube talking heads before
>>1810030>the Montgomery Bus Boycott>not relevant to public transportation in the United States
>>1810399It works all over Europe too, at large stations and small. It's only Americans who are obsessed with preventing retards with falling in front of trains to the point that they consider even standing on the platform without adult supervision to be dangerous.Keeping people away while trains are cleaned and serviced admittedly does make sense.
>>1808861Failure to provide some incentive for freight railroads to maintain tracks to standards that would allow trains to operate at greater speeds than cars, specifically during the Arab oil embargo and later
>>1808861Amtrak is perfect as it is right now it basically serves every viable rail route already and does it well enough to keep around.
>>1810647>Keeping people away while trains are cleaned and serviced admittedly does make sense.normally you don't do that at the station though
>>1810329>Their charter should have been revoked when it became clear we weren't actually going to get rid of passenger service.And who would run interstate passenger service without Amtrak? How would they get access to freight rails without the federal law granting Amtrak (and only Amtrak) such access?This would work in the Northeast and maybe California. Nowhere else.
>>1810661it's OK to want nicer things outside of the status quo, though.>>1810685i think we're maybe mixing up 'cleaning' like you'd clean your car, and 'cleaning' like having someone travel through the inside of the train cleaning up litter, vacuuming seats, wiping down tables, and so on, which will be factored into the timetable at terminal stations. this is why trains will show as 'boarding soon' or whatever on the departures board, so that people don't try and get on board until it's good and ready for them to do so.here's a good example, timestamped:>https://youtu.be/S9HpravTOCM?t=92watch how the 14:00 Aberdeen train (second from left) flips over from 'not arrived' to 'preparing, boarding approx 13:40'.
>>1810829yes but that cleaning isn't a safety concernyou can let people onto the platform while it's happening, and as far as i'm aware in the uk they do
>>1810661This is absolutely the most rational Amtrak take I've ever heard in my entire life.
>>1810955Hard for people to do their jobs with passengers milling around
>>1809423No, I guess I have to wait for MilleniumForce to explain it to me.
>>1808861Oil and as a consequence Petrol (Gasoline) are on the way out. Their days are numbered. When all the yanks switch over to electric vehicles suddenly the oil industry brainwashing will wear off and Americans will ride trains normally like the rest of the world once more.
>>1811108>>1811111meant for this thread oops.
>>1810661>and does so in a slower manner than those same routes were served even in the 1920s
>>1810716a huge percentage of americans live in the northeast and california. giving them a system that actually works is leagues better than nobody having one
>>1808861Trying to retain the legacy from over a hundred years ago, making people take 3 days to reach their destination, instead of abandoning old inefficiency and focus on where trains do win out (aka regional high speed passenger transportation like HSR or urban rapid transit)Imagine how much better American transit network will be if they get all the Amtrak fundings from all the years.
>>1811108>Petrol (Gasoline)I know you've done that to be snarky but they're both wrong, and they're actually both brand names. it's real name is motor spirit.
>>1811138>CAHSR>system that actually works
>>1810399>pic related, 3rd busiest station in the entire Amtrak network>tiny suburban station
>>1810323You can’t be serious. Americans are such children they can’t be trusted on a train platform? Christ alive.
>>1811213I've seen this at CHI and WAS not elsewhere. Wouldn't be surprised if it existed at NYP, BOS, LAX too. Always assumed it was part of Amtrak's masquerading as an airline.
>>1811213https://www.amtrak.com/at-the-station/boarding.htmlBetter believe it
>>1811213>>1811241who cares. oh no you have to wait in a waiting room. who fucking cares
>>1811012they're milling around outside the train dumbass
>>1811221It's how they operate in MKE as well. I think they just prefer having a single nice waiting room area than making platforms look nicer than the industrial garage that they currently are.
>>1808861Heavy taxation of private railways and government-funded Interstate highways.
>>1808861Historically, railroad union strikes have brought down entire empires. Most US states try to keep union membership percentage in the single digits, so they press citizens into forced labor as taxi drivers, but bar unionizing through a loophole that doesn't consider slaves to be employees.
Price of ticket for going from my town to LA on Amtrak:$1900 70 hour tripPrice of flight from my town to LA $580 5 hour trip gee I wonder
>>1811570Only right answer. Taxes are a disincentive for the freight railroads to upgrade their infrastructure beyond the minimum necessary.
>>1808861The Interstate Highway System was a mistake and you know it. We need more stuff like Indiana did with I-90.
>>1811247Passenger rail, and by extension Amtrak, is not an aeroplane. It's a fucking train-line, so you get your ass on the platform and wait there.I've never seen this gate idiocy on the Keystone line to 30th street, but you're lucky to have a station at all instead of a cowpatch next to the tracks there.
>>1812838Why do you think they built stations with a waiting room? It's for you to wait inOf all the Amtrak gripes this one is the most autistic. You're mad because you can't be right near the choo-choos in case they need your help
>>1812848Yes, wait in until your train comes, at which point you walk to the platform through the walkway build for that purpose. Not wait at the gate until the teacher comes to lead your class down the hallway.
>>1812433What did Indiana do with I-90?
>>1812855You don't have to get up and wait like a sperg, they'll just call you when it's timeFor you, staring at empty tracks 30 minutes before the train arrives is a thrill I guess, the world's not built around your type though, important point to remember
Amtrak has no direct competition, as far as I know. There's Amtrak, and there's nothing else. If there is, it's regional, like MetroLink in STL.It's probably a meme to say this, but there really ought to be something here like in Japan. At the very least, make train routes that take you approximately two hours to get from one major metro city to the next, with intermittent stops between.
>>1811570Wrong.Freight railroads do good.Maybe you was wrong all along trying to shove people into outdated trains when car and American invention called airplane exist.
>>1813029>freight railroads are good for society>so we should tax them more
>>1812857I assume he meant toll it
>>1813193>railroads are bad
>>1812429>>1811570The most backwards thing we do is tax railroads on their improvements, which means they pay more if the double track, upgrade signals, perform quality maintenance, and/or electrify. So why would they? We incentivize them to keep the infrastructure in the worst viable condition. We should switch to either land-value taxes for railroad ROW or remove property taxes from them altogether and make up the difference elsewhere.
>>1812865>they'll just call you when it's timeAlong with everyone else, which creates an entirely unnecessary queue while the train sits doing nothing.
>>1813376No, they'll call you when it's time to board. Your problem is that you got there too early and you feel entitled to watch the big choo choo train roll in from right next to the track. So sad
>>1813436This is what peak performance looks like. There is no way this could be made more efficient.
>>1813436If you are not already standing on the platform when the train arrives, you are wasting time. The train has many doors; it is not an airplane where the last passenger needs to be off before people can start boarding.There's a reason every railroad in the world save Amtrak (the one with the worst delays of all of them) does it this way.
>>1813543>If you are not already standing on the platform when the train arrives, you are wasting time.Yeah, exactly. They call you when it's time. That's usually a few minutes before the train pulls in. Did you think they didn't consider that already? You are feigning outrage because you theoretically can't go out and take pictures of the empty tracks 2 hours before the train arrives and generally get in other people's way instead of waiting in the WAITING ROOM until they're ready for you. Get a hold of yourself
>>1813547Where did I say anything about being on the platform two hours in advance?Since you can't hear it from me, maybe you can hear it from this article:https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/trafficandcommuting/theres-an-easier-way-to-board-trains-so-why-doesnt-amtrak-do-it/2018/12/01/c2e4774e-f355-11e8-bc79-68604ed88993_story.htmlEvery single railroad in the world, from NJ Transit to Zambian Railways to Japan Central, has figured this out. Only Amtrak is too dumb to do it. If Amtrak's gate system worked just as well, I would have no serious objections to it, but Amtrak trains frequently depart Chicago and DC late because of slow boarding. On top of that they want to spend ten billion dollars to increase capacity at DC union station (while telling us year after year that there isn't enough money around to speed up the trains on the NEC), all while they're not even using the space they have (the platforms) because of this bizarre boarding process that not a single other railroad, in this country or abroad, has found to be either necessary or effective.https://www.amtrak.com/about-amtrak/northeast-corridor/nec-plans-projects/washington-union-station-concourse-modernization-project.htmlEven their own inspector general says their boarding procedures need attention. Do you suppose he wants to show up two hours early to take pictures of empty tracks too?
>>1813565>Only Amtrak is too dumb to do it.I guarantee you their reasoning for it is more logical than one an autistic foamer made on 4chan
>>1813565Crying with laughter at American attempts to be a real country.
>>1813597So go become a millionaire by introducing this brilliant new American boarding system in China, Germany, Japan, etc. Those guys will pay the big bucks for efficiency.
>>1813623I don't care how the rest of the world does it
>>1813689I'm not that guy; but you're clearly the autistic one.>I simply cannot be wrong online!
>>1813987>has to be allowed to go next to the tracks or he pitches a fit>not autistic
>>1808861>haha flyover country has literally nothing there>WTF WHY THERE ARE SO FEW ROUTES IN THE MIDDLE OF THE COUNTRY
>>1814108Get help retard. Efficiency is important for rail systems.
>>1814732i mean, it's not like flyover country never *had* rail service. what's the fastet, most efficient means of moving grain and ore and lumber and steel in the days before the automobile? well...
fuck, wrong image. now i look like an idiot lol
>>1814732look at all the major cities east of the mississippi river lacking rail service
>>1814108>anon writes a small essay including sources about operational efficiency and best practices when boarding trains>hehe u wan take picture of train but no picture for you, USA #1fucking kek, never change /n/
>>1814740To be fair we still have a lot of rails, but the frequency of passenger service on most is 0 per day and and what service does exist is slow.
>>1814786there's a gif of that where you can see the network shrink into nothingnessdoes anyone have it?
>>1814777You're being really autistic rn
>>1811211Then stop your bitching.
>>1810399I'm utterly baffled by this post.We let people onto platforms ahead of time at every station in Britain.Are americans retarded?
>>1814860Why are you throwing a tantrum over this when you're in Britain?
>>1814867What about my post is a tantrum? I'm just amazed at how americans manage to fuck up basic public transport.
>>1814869Why are you acting like this when you live in another country?
>>1814869That anon thinks every single post in this thread saying that Amtrak's unique and inefficient boarding practices are retarded must all the same person because it's inconceivable to him that multiple people could think wasting several minutes while boarding trains only to try to make it up later with tens of billions of dollars in infrastructure improvements is a pants-on-head retarded way to run a railroad.>>1814872Read, then summarize the following:https://slate.com/business/2013/07/amtrak-boarding-process-it-s-nuts.htmlhttps://amtrakoig.gov/audit-documents/audit-reports/train-operations-adopting-leading-practices-could-improve-passenger
>>1814860It's not even all American trains. No commuter lines to this, even the ones that use the same platforms as Amtrak. Brightline doesn't do this. It's purely Amtrak's insatiable urge to LARP as an airline.
>>1814884>this is what they took from you
>Chicago to LAI'll take Airplane
>>1814923We'll bring those days back, anon.
>>1814930could be a sleeper 12h long HSR, leave Chicago in the evening, arrive at LA in the morning
>>1814935Yes, we will. Together.
>>1814936For tourist yes. For me no thank i rather airplane much cheaper and faster than HSR
>>1814962For cross-country flights this makes more sense and will for a long time. It's more the intermediate distances (Dallas-Houston, Washington-Raleigh, maybe New York-Chicago, etc.) where trains really make sense. Better to have a range of options for travelers with a range of destinations.
>>1814962>>1814965You won't have a choice when we ban petroleum
Lack of affordable lay-flat accommodations combined with lack of track upgrades to speed the system up enough to render overnight trains unnecessary
>>1814877>Read, then summarize the following:I want to know why you care this much about Amtrak's boarding procedures if you don't even live in the US
>>1815003Unlike Bonganon, I do live in the US and I want my countrymen to have nice things.
>>1815130No, you're the seething British guy. Why do you care about Amtrak boarding policies if you don't even live here?
>>1815140I still want to know why you're this upset over the boarding policy of a foreign railroad
>>1814860>We let people onto platforms ahead of time at every station in BritainThat's not true at all; in fact I can think of four stations off the very top of my head where this is not the case. Kings Cross is the simplest example, where the 'arrivals' and 'departures' are kept very much apart to ease passenger flow. The other examples that immediately spring to mind are Waterloo, Euston, and Birmingham New Street, but I'm absolutely certain there's more. Manchester Picc is a mixture, the terminal platforms are separated from the main concourse via fare gates - but there's always people waiting on the outer platforms 13 & 14 where it's open, and from experience they're a fucking nightmare to use when it's busy.
>>1814922also how the hell is that tractor keeping up with the train o.O
>>1808861It all started in 1951, Genova.
>>1813375Why not nationalize all the physical rail infrastructure (except rolling stock) under a government agency, then just operate everything on leases, tolls, and docking fees at railyards? Railroads get to drop off their most expensive portion of operation (track maintenance), government doesn't have to run a "public-private partnership" every time they want to improve any infrastructure, and improvements that expensive, but have huge benefits, like electrification or laying double tracks, can actually get done.
>>1817363>nationalizing everything but rolling stockFuck off europoor, be a man and nationalize everything or privatize it. There is a reason European rail is such a shit show compared to nations who fully nationalize or fully privatize.
>>1815157fare gates don't count unless there's further restrictions
>>1817384>fare gates don't countAnd what makes you say this?
>>1817363No fuck you. This is the dumbest fucking shit. Amtrak does dumb shit with infrastructure they own all the time. States routinely fuck up their infrastructure. Plenty of countries with nationalized rail fuck it up. American freight is already world class and highly functional, so there is no good justification for radical changes. Remove the penalty for improvements and see what happens first. I'll also say that most corridors that could justify frequent passenger rail service and are impeded by freight companies could probably justify separate tracks for passenger and light freight (in off hours) anyways, so rather than radically change and already functional industry, stop spending so much on roads and freeways and build transit authority owned ROW that can prioritize regional rail and marginal freight in the off hours.
>>1817363>something is broken>why don’t we just give the government MORE power over usFuck off
>>1817363Ferrocarriles Nacionales de Mexico
>>1809422>call him a faggot to fit in but forgot the slashes
>>1812308youre trying to conflate a fucking steam crew with a guy pressing a button a diesel electric.......the latter can strike and have zero effect
>>1814740>those spiderwebs from chicago, st louis, and kansas cityget this hothead outta here!
I just want this nigger back. Is that do much to ask?
>there will never be an American answer to the Trans-siberiwn Railway>the only way this gets built is if Alaska gets conquered by China
>>1819333S O V L
>>1817826The A2A doesn’t really make much sense. Cargo barges are better for cargo than trains, and you already have the pipeline taking oil (Alaska’s only export) to Valdez (major port town). Then you have the ARR taking care of imports for about 75% of Alaska through anchorage (bog port city) to Fairbanks/North Pole and even to Whittier. The extension to Delta doesn’t add much more population, and the non-connected major population (>10k) are already ocean/island cities (Kenai, Juneau, Sitka, Kodiak).What are you adding to sevice? Tok? There’s about 5k people in that town. A cargo van is optionally too big for them. For people transit, people already don’t use the ARR because it’s so expensive and slow compared to flying (from ANC to FAI) or driving (from Whittier to Anchorage, and Whittier has a population of 2k and boat transit).I can’t imagine Canada would be getting a lot out of A2A as well. But Alaska doesn’t need to answer to the Trans-Siberian, because we have ocean and boats.
>>1819357It has some utility as a military logistics asset and maybe as a way to access stranded resources in the Yukon. Shipping Chinese containers via the port of Anchorage is a meme.
>>1819587What happened then?
>>1819333i mean, i know you're doing a joke, but this looks quite nice. also lol:>The FRA last month announced revisions to key aspects of the proposed redevelopment, eliminating a six-story garage, significantly reducing parking and relocating the parking area to a new underground facility.fucking owned. get in the basement, cagies
>>1819584Once again boats and planes are better. The Trans Siberian Railway makes sense because sailibg from Vladivostock to St. Petersburg before planes required practically circumnavigating the globe, even if Alaska was well developed before the mid 20th century you coulf just sail a boat to California and move by train to the Northeast.
>>1817391because if you have a ticket you can pass retard
>>1817563>American freight is already world class and highly functionalwe'll see how long that lasts, if that's even true to begin with
>>1819905Boats are not better if they're getting sunk by Chinese submarines, nor are they better for accessing inland northern Canada.
>>1813565VIA in canada think theyre an airline too.
>>1821726absolute state of Angl*s
>>1808861Lazy Americans and their love for being wage slaves chained to freedom cars and mediocrity.
why is there a fucking AMTRAK shill
>>1812421how often are you going to LA?
Just west of Harrisburg
When the English abandoned tradition
>>1811108>Oil and as a consequence Petrol (Gasoline) are on the way out. Their days are numbered. When all the yanks switch over to electric vehicles suddenly the oil industry brainwashing will wear off and Americans will ride trains normally like the rest of the world once more.Not going to happen when EVs are more expensive and in short supply. What will happen however is people will start deliberately moving to places with public transit access so they can afford to live without a car.
>>1808861Not fast enough. Trains only need to go an average of like 80mph over the route to compete with cars, they failed even that.
>>1828811Based and trainpilled
>>1821680>nor are they better for accessing inland northern CanadaBears and moose need boats? There's literally nothing worth accessing in almost all inland northern Canada. It's just thousands of miles of fuck all.
>>1814735Before and after automobileThing is trucking got massively subsidized so...
>>1808861The building of the interstate highway system past ww2 to soak up shell shocked gis.It privided a massive boon for truck transport and private cars while rails got jack shit. Also Big Auto (then Detroit based) had lobby power and lobbied for suburban bloat fueled by the car. This caused white flight and race separation. Since no one has actually seen a black person, libertards began campaigning for their "rights", and they were let loose on infrastructure. Public transit became the drug and weapon infested nigger hellhole it is now, and no one white dares to go within 300ft of any bus or train.