[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vm / vmg / vr / vrpg / vst / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / pw / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / vt / wsg / wsr / x / xs] [Settings] [Search] [Mobile] [Home]
Board
Settings Mobile Home
/n/ - Transportation

[Advertise on 4chan]

Name
Options
Comment
Verification
4chan Pass users can bypass this verification. [Learn More] [Login]
File
  • Please read the Rules and FAQ before posting.
  • There are 81 posters in this thread.

08/21/20New boards added: /vrpg/, /vmg/, /vst/ and /vm/
05/04/17New trial board added: /bant/ - International/Random
10/04/16New board for 4chan Pass users: /vip/ - Very Important Posts
[Hide] [Show All]


Janitor acceptance emails will be sent out over the coming weeks. Make sure to check your spam box!


[Advertise on 4chan]


"Stop admiring Europe for it's supposedly better planning, beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-Edition
>>
>Stop admiring Europe for it's supposedly better planning, beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US
Eh. Only recently have I seen the development of truely awful same-old same-old Americanised suburban planning. It's ugly rubbish that only shows how overpopulated England really is. I've always been a fan of urban planning that looks as if several layers of history has been slathered on top, like a marbling of different architectural styles. I happen to live in a village that fits that description.

I think Poundbury is a good example of new suburban planning that actually works and doesn't look like the same house copy-pasted in the middle of nowhere where your only local business is a Sainsburys Local and an industrial park.
>>
>>1707605
isn't that the fake play town of prince charles
>>
File: cargocultfraudster.jpg (551 KB, 1968x1968)
551 KB
551 KB JPG
>>1707615
Pretty much anything new but planned to look like an old timey disney town will have a repulsive uncanny valley vibe. "Urbanists" are always trying to mass produce the old money neighborhoods they covet in old cities because such places have the most prestige. They copy the superficial traits, open a sales office, boring bougie types people move in, they get confused when it fails because they expected hemophiliac old world aristocrats to appear out of nowhere and bleed some of their prestige onto it, and for some weird reason that didn't happen, and then they engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why it didn't work this time and next time it will totally work I swear you just have to abolish all laws and privatize literally everything including rain.
>>
>>1707601
>"Stop admiring Europe for it's supposedly better planning, beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-Edition
maybe if you keep reeee'ing about yurp you'll magic a few trains, walkable urban cores, etc, into existence. lol

>>1707605
lol this dickhead lives in Royston Vasey and thinks it gives him perspective on overpopulation

>>1707619
i don't know who you are but i'm pretty sure you're a jerk
>>
>>1707619
Bay St. Louis is such a shithole
>>
>>1707619
>new buildings must always be concrete and glass abominations
>>
File: 8312790874_8732a7d3e0_b.jpg (388 KB, 1024x683)
388 KB
388 KB JPG
>>1707634
What this person said, except sincerely
>>
File: Liquid Grid.jpg (114 KB, 800x800)
114 KB
114 KB JPG
Liquid Grid
>>
File: duplication.jpg (240 KB, 1448x2048)
240 KB
240 KB JPG
Return to monke.
>>
>>1707654
Thats how you get sprawling megacities like Beijing and Shanghai
>>
>>1707654
Based
There’s a traditional style development near my parents’ house with a little town center, a park, and rowhouses. It also has fenced in the front lawn which is something you usually don’t see in suburbia. Very cozy.
>>
> american suburbs were always shi~~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzBL85kTwwo
>>
>>1707680
At least you guys found a new channel to repeat stuff from
>>
>>1707640
>tripfag has garbage taste
of course
>>
>>1707601
>exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-
Interestingly, most Europeans have a shop and a pub in walking distance.
>>
>>1707654
look at the sprawlfag
look at him and laugh
>>
>>1707601
>beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-Edition
Unironically kinda true for some parts of Europe. Public transport in places like Ireland fucking sucks, they're saved by the fact that they were too poor in the 1950s to have gone full Auto
>>
>>1707619
Prince Charles literally is an old world aristocrat though
>>
>>1707657
>>1707689
imagine thinking that image is promoting sprawl
>>
>>1707619
so is that a yes to my question >>1707615 or what
>>
>>1707721
It is, just denser sprawl
>>
>>1707723
so do you consider all human development sprawl?
>>
Are there any examples of cities that were consciously designed for a very specific type of person - it seems that there's this constant one size fits all approach in so much modern planning, for once I'd like to see a city be really edgy and do something extreme, with the idea that only the people who like that style of living would go there.
>>
>>1707733
>cities that were consciously designed for a very specific type of person
What kind of person?
>>
>>1707724
Yes, if it spreads out over a large area of land
>>
>>1707737
lol wrong
Sprawl can't exist without strict zoning.
>>
>>1707745
Sprawl is just a city expanding outwards to cover more area, zoning has nothing to do with it.
>>
>>1707749
.>city expanding outwards to cover more area
...with single-use zones.
>>
>>1707752
Urban sprawl is literally just when an urban area sprawls out

>urban sprawl as far as the eye can see
>>
File: 1592421781518.jpg (29 KB, 419x333)
29 KB
29 KB JPG
>>1707619
This is what I've been trying to tell people for years, they claim to hate suburbs and love the real "urban" vibe, what they really want is outdoor shopping malls with apartments built over them. Same "pedestrian-friendly", same ultra-planned development, different packaging. There's nothing actually wrong with this--but it's framed so dishonestly that anyone who talks about it is probably a charlatan who repeats the same talking points.
>>
>>1707688
>most Europeans have a shop and a pub in walking distance
This.
2 grocery stores, 2 pubs, one gyros shop, a barber, two restaurants, a bowling place and a car wash, and I live in a de facto "suburb" of Budapest
>>
>>1707758
Why did you post a picture of single-use area and not a picture of proper city?

>>1707761
>who repeats the same talking points.
(You)
>>
>>1707765
Here’s a proper city for you, Tokyo. Any growing city will grow out and up, never just up. The only reason Seoul hasn’t sprawled out even more is that it’s population has been declining for decades.
>>
File: 856786.jpg (124 KB, 810x608)
124 KB
124 KB JPG
>>1707761
>hat they really want is outdoor shopping malls with apartments built over them.
Why outdoor ? Indoors are obviously superior. Always perfect weather. No cars, cyclists, dogs or other animals.
>>
>>1707619
>>1707761
>Pretty much anything new but planned to look like an old timey disney town will have a repulsive uncanny valley vibe. "Urbanists" are always trying to mass produce the old money neighborhoods they covet in old cities because such places have the most prestige. They copy the superficial traits, open a sales office, boring bougie types people move in, they get confused when it fails because they expected hemophiliac old world aristocrats to appear out of nowhere and bleed some of their prestige onto it, and for some weird reason that didn't happen, and then they engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why it didn't work this time and next time it will totally work I swear you just have to abolish all laws and privatize literally everything including rain.
I second this very deeply.
For too much of our thinking on neo urbanist planning is awfully stuck proposing ancient forms with little understanding how most of it actually worked and why it developed that way, while fundamentally lacking a viable proposal for the present and future or it consists of pipedream for new communities, while ignoring the importance of incremental change Charles Marohn preached about the last decade.

Look for example at Poundbury (and pretty much every older town and city in mediocre to poor economic shape):
Why are so many window fronts empty or filled with trash or businesses that don't really need such a storefront and/or seem awfully out of place?
Because there used to be businesses there (or at least in the places on which you based your town upon), serving the local community in mostly specialized ways which have long become obsolete due to replacement by larger shops, supermarkets and the internet (for example fishmongers, ironmongers and most corner shops (outside the US at least).
Some other things to look at are also the vastly different commuting patterns that came with the automobile and social structures historic towns had.
>>
File: file.png (695 KB, 710x355)
695 KB
695 KB PNG
>>1707733
peachtree georgia is entirely based around golf courses and golf carts for old people, with small roads specifically made for golf carts as the main form of transportation. funnily despite golf being a super boomer activity that should be the opposite of urbanism, the golf cart paths are great for bikes and golf carts are safer and better for the environment so it works out to be not bad.
>>
>>1707777
You purposefully ignore the quality of expansion and that's what makes sprawl (single-zoned overexpansion) and organic expansion (creation of new cities in close proximity) different.
Tokyo metro area has some "new cities" and the most known examples are Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro.

>>1707791
> serving the local community in mostly specialized ways which have long become obsolete due to replacement by larger shops, supermarkets and the internet
> Some other things to look at are also the vastly different commuting patterns that came with the automobile
Reject modernity.
>>
>>1707809
>creation of new cities in close proximity

So suburbs?
>>
Poundbury was actually quite successful and the design is better than 99% of new development I’ve seen. They even made a 2nd one.
>>
>>1707642
Has anyone ever done this? Seems like it could work pretty well
>>
>>1707856
Milton Keynes.
>>
>>1707777
posting the largest city on the planet is not a good argument one way or another, as it is clearly an outlier. HOWEVER, consider what a similar populated American city would look like. You think Tokyo is bad? Imagine if Atlanta is given the same population size. It would be even larger than tokyo now.
>>
>>1707913
Why hasn’t it happened in the US then? Because cities fill up, they get too expensive, and people live in other cities instead, and population distributes itself more evenly.

Also, in the US people have options of where they can live. In megacities like Seoul and Tokyo, there’s no options, it’s all just tiny apartments as far as the eye can see.
>>
>>1707916
>cities fill up, they get too expensive, and people live in other cities instead
hmm yes, reality IS just like your cities skylines. indeed,
>>
>>1707921
Projection. But regardless I think it’s cool that in the US you have lots of different lifestyles to choose from, vs Korea and Japan where your choice is either tiny apartment megacity wagie or poverty line farmer.
>>
>>1707657
not if you mandate green belts between towns.
cities should be condensed and "small" with rural areas nearby [~5km from center]
>>
>>1707935
Greenbelts just delay the inevitable.
>>
>>1707916
>Why hasn’t it happened in the US then?
US has space to spread outward.
Japan is pretty much full. Japan is mostly mountains, all falt lands ate either fields or buldii. Well Japan HAD space to spread out in past but then they run out of space.
>>
>>1707935
Still the image in >>1707654 is basically saying that it's okay for cities to sprawl out horizontally as long as it's dense. I mean you have to for an infinitely growing city unless you want to keep knocking down and rebuilding burj khalifas, and that's how you get megacities
>>
And having literally every industry concentrated in one city is bad for people. Despite urbanist approved zoning laws, they’re still facing an affordability crisis.

https://www.businessinsider.com/seoul-home-prices-rising-pandemic-south-korea-report-2021-4

> The city has faced an increasingly dire affordability crisis since President Moon Jae-in took office in 2017. Despite the government announcing nearly two dozen measures to curb increases over the past three years, home prices in Seoul have risen by 50% since 2017, per a Reuters report.

Maybe building more homes is inducing demand and making the prices even higher?
>>
>>1707932
>Korea and Japan where your choice is either tiny apartment megacity wagie or poverty line farmer.
Somehow, I doubt this is correct. Perhaps you are mistaken.
>>
>>1707940
>Japan is pretty much full.
>they run out of space
That's an interesting thing to say. What makes you say that?
>>
>>1707822
Again, don't ignore inconvenient words in my posts, like:
>single-zoned overexpansion
or
>Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro
>>
File: plains of japan.png (3.07 MB, 2572x2166)
3.07 MB
3.07 MB PNG
>>1707949
Because large metro areas in Japan are located on plains and Kanto plain is the biggest one.
>>
>>1707991
And how does that make them full?
>>
>>1707932
Only rich people or really poor people live in apartments in Japan. The former in luxury towers and the latter in quasi-commieblocks (they look better). Regular homeowners in Japan live in single family homes that tend to be smaller the more you get closer to the city centers but it really depends on lot sizes.

Then there's single room apartments for student or young workers that are literally a God's blessing because they're actually affordable and easy to find, some single adult poor people also live in those as well but it's not really normal, they're usually always drunk 50yo neets.
I remember saving quite a bit on my study year abroad because one of such apartments in central Yokohama would be about 100$ less expensive than a single room in a shared apartment in insular (central) Venice, Italy. They're even less expensive than Venice University dorm rooms. And wages in Yokohama are way higher than Italian wages.
>>
>>1707801
Yeah this is the kind of thing I fuck with. There's an island in australia I went to once that does the same thing, there are literally no cars on the island just golf carts
>>
>>1707993
because everything not green on that map is mountains and uninhabbitable mega city wise. Open up a map of Japan and I bet all of that green space in that map is just city nohgmwxw
>>
>>1708033
>Open up a map of Japan and I bet
oh. so, you haven't, like, thought about this, just looked at a picture and drawn conclusions. Lol.
>>
>>1707809
>Tokyo metro area has some "new cities" and the most known examples are Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro.
no one considers those not part of tokyo though retard
they are entwined with the rest of the city
>>
>>1707938
not if you stabilize the population
>>
>>1707688
>Interestingly, most Europeans have a shop and a pub in walking distance.
True. I live in a small city in the Netherlands and there's plenty to do within walking distance, even for those who live well outside the city center. Even the most remote suburbs of this town have at least a place to do groceries, a pub or two, something like a barber, perhaps a gym, and small parks and playgrounds for recreation... and that's pretty typical because those things are basic necessities that any normal human being desires and it's just bad planning if people have to drive just to parttake in mundane activities. There are few places in the country where you absolutely need to own a car to get by, and all of those places are remote rural villages.

I don't think OP realizes just how unusually strict the zoning laws in some areas of the US and Canada are, and to what extent they contribute to urban sprawl. To create a neighborhood where you have to drive in order to do any of these essential things because it's literally illegal to build anything other than a single family home, is absolutely bonkers... but those neighborhoods exist by the thousands.
>>
It’s cool that in the US and Europe you can work the same job but choose between having a little apartment in the city or living in a house with a yard and commuting in. People in Asian cities don’t have that choice. If they want to work in the city, they’re stuck with the tiny apartment.
>>
>>1708047
Kawasaki, Musashi-kosugi/Maruko, Chofu, Fuchuu, Mitaka, Kichijoji, Tama, Koganei, Kokubunji, Tachikawa, Haijima, Fussa, Hachioji, Tokorozawa, Sagamihara, Machida, Ebina, Yamato, Atsugi, Hiratsuka, Chigasaki, Tsujido, Fujisawa, Enoshima, Kamakura, Zushi, Yokosuka, Kurihama, Ofuna, Kanazawa, Totsuka, Yokohama, Kawagoe, Omiya, Urawa, Kasukabe, Koshigaya, Matsudo, Kashiwa, Urayasu, Ichikawa, Funabashi, Makuhari, Chiba, Narita, Tsuchiura and Tsukuba though.
>>
Boggles the mind that NIMBYs want to stop people from building places like the OP
>>
>>1708115
i don't blame nimbys. i would never trust a developer to build anything good, lasting, or beautiful in my city. it's all mcburbs
>>
>>1707601
>you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US
A lot of people tell this in my eurocountry. I lived all my life in a city with everything close at any time of the day and recently went to my gf parent's house in a 600 inhabitant town
Pub & basic grocery stuff : 5 min. walk
Children school (till 10 y-o) : 5 min. walk
Egg & chicken at the farm : 3.5 km
all other stuff : 8km - 10km
middle school : 9.7km
high school : 11.5 km

An electric bike is more than enough.
The only issue is that roads are all 70 or 90km/h and there are no bike lane or anything that make people want to ride and eventually jobs aren't very close (20km min with no commute)
>>
>>1708115
Looks like shit. You’re living in a boring tiny ass town and you don’t even have a yard to anything like have a garden or pool or play sports, you’re still crammed in a minuscule apartment. What’s the point
>>
>>1707629
By Gulf Coast standards it's kinda nice, or at least the three square blocks that are the old walkable core are.
>>
>>1707943
Nothing wrong with megacities if they're functional. The image is promoting functional neighborhoods organized as mostly self-sufficient wholes, rather than a single superdense downtown surrounded by a sea of suburban groundcover.
>>
How do you deal with the existential dread knowing the city you live within won't stop being mediocre in your lifetime?
>>
>>1707944
>Maybe building more homes is inducing demand and making the prices even higher?
There are only so many Koreans, and immigration isn't a huge input to their growth. Either new construction in high-demand areas isn't meeting demand, or transportation links to high-demand areas are insufficient and leading to concentrated development necessitating high-cost building methods.
>>
>>1707935
Greenbelts don't work. They just push out sprawl further and just become a giant homeless jungle, like in Seattle.
>>1708048
"Stabilize the population" is only possible if you have some sort of iron fist on how people run their lives. Not that it's always a bad thing--Western Europe and United States can't even get a grip on immigration.
>>
>>1708062
Have you ever been to even a single Asian city? Tokyo has a wider variety of housing types to choose from than American cities due to more permissive zoning. You can even car-commute to a big country house if your employer sees fit to provide you a parking spot at the office.
>>
File: 1546948903997.jpg (49 KB, 500x500)
49 KB
49 KB JPG
There needs to be more express highway lanes, which are unfortunately rare without being tolled. The reality is that most of the highway congestion is from slowing down around exits and entrances, so an express highway would actually get where you would want to go.
>>
>>1708145
User fees would solve a lot of problems with highways in general.
>>
>>1708145
Highways should be tolled to have less drivers from surrounding suburbs driving into the main city hub because they've built only detached houses repeatedly and neighborhoods with terrible walkability.
>>
>>1707949
Open Google maps and see for yourself. All flatlands are utilized. The rest 3/4 of Japan is forest covered mountains.
>>
>>1708173
>All flatlands are utilized
Hmm. Somehow, I don't think that's the case. I don't think you're getting accurate information, if you are basing this hypothesis on a glance at Google Earth.
>>
>>1708143
what absolute retardation is this
do you think birth rates in developed countries are above replacement rate?
>>
>>1708179
your turn
>>
>>1708179
You thinking is not required in this case
You just need to take a look at things yourself.
>>
>>1708145
>The reality is that most of the highway congestion is from slowing down around exits and entrances
lmao, not in america. most slowdowns are caused by reckless and constant lane changing. here in Charlotte there are huge stretches of 485 and 77 that get gridlocked at random parts of the day with no exits around.
>>
>>1708227
Well, I can certainly look at things, but that does not always mean I am able to offer informed judgement on the things I am looking at. And, although I do not know much about you, I doubt that you are qualified to judge if a place is 'full', either.
>>
>>1708230
>I am trained to not believe my one eyes but believe what teachers or experts say
Do zoomers really?
>>
Ah. 'Alternative facts', then.
>>
>>1708228
Well, in NC, a lot of the lane changing is down to dickheads who drive at or under the limit in the left lane.
Another dumb NC thing is building cheap-shit highway ramp intersections which end at a traffic light, instead of cloverleafs. Always fun to make everything a wait at a light so traffic backs up onto the highway.
I hate toll roads, but thank god 540 is FINALLY being completed. It'll make S. Wake go through the roof and I can cash the fuck out. Thanks, Easley, for delaying it 20 fucking years.
>>
>>1708246
>Another dumb NC thing is building cheap-shit highway ramp intersections which end at a traffic light, instead of cloverleafs.
or the reverse with entrance ramps that are at most 100-200 feet long so you better fucking merge or else. I think there is an entrance ramp of 277 to 77 north in downtown Charlotte where the ramp literally dead ends into the barricade. Good luck faggot.
>>
>>1708246
Conventional cloverleaafs are obsolete and modern ones require collector-distributors that increase the cost substantially which is why no one builds them anymore
>>
basically right
communist zoning laws are bad
what dumb fucking retard is keeping these laws in place seriously they're in every single country
>>
>>1708293
>seriously they're in every single country
Doesn't sound very communist
>>
>>1707601
That's only partly true. Yeah there are sprawlburbs, but cities and small towns still have walkable downtowns, transit-oriented medium density burbs, or small satellite villages/hamlets that are centered around a train station and allow convenient movement with public transit. Plus transit is usually quite decent, with good or at least acceptable frequency, and without being surrounded by junkies and feral nogs on the train/bus (exceptions apply).

tl;dr the superiority of euro planning is that you actually have a choice.
>>
>>1708246
As long as you have a long enough ramp with time to get over to the correct lanes, ramps that go to traffic lights are fine. Cloverleafs are bad because you have to merge into a lane that people are already trying to merge out of, slam on the brakes to take a fairly sharp curve, then change lanes out (which people are also trying to get into) to go on your way. The only time I see cloverleafs is places with antiquated infrastructure like Louisiana or rural areas where there isn't enough traffic to make a difference. Cloverleafs aren't very pedestrian friendly at all (no space for sidewalks or crosswalks) but that doesn't matter, because half of /n/ thinks that if it doesn't significantly inconvenience vehicular traffic, it's not an improvement.
>>
>>1708293
why would you need zoning laws if the state initiates all construction?
>>
>>1708246
Wait where is 540 gonna reach to? Farthest I've gone on it is the close side of Apex. I'm a Carychad myself.
My buddy bought some land in Pittsboro a few years ago and I'm regretting not joining him. Prices are going through the roof now.
>>
>>1708140
Move somewhere that's already what you want or just wallow in the mediocrity and go with the masses.
>>
>>1708330
Also pic related is a superior way to interchange between highways and smaller roads.
>entrance/exit ramps are far away from the road, meaning that there's less braking involved before the stoplight
>u-turn lane provides access to the frontage road, and prevents pedestrians from being right next to the edge of the bridge
>being positioned above the highway eliminates need for artificial lighting and reduces chance for hobo encampment to build underneath
>>
>>1707642
there are 2 huge neighborhoods like this in mira mesa, california and it is nightmarish
>>
>>1708828
why are these nightmarish
>>
I live on the edge of a 30k town in the Netherlands and I’m within walking distance of four supermarkets, at least five restaurants and many more bars, a doctor and a hospital. My dentist is on the other side of town so I generally bike there in ten to fifteen minutes. If I want to go to a proper city I can bike there as well, same for going to the woods or the countryside.

Can’t remember the last time I needed something engine powered to get where I need desu, not even public transport.
>>
>>1708855
brown people live there. ooga booga! (screams in White)
>>
>>1708825
>being positioned above the highway eliminates need for artificial lighting and reduces chance for hobo encampment to build underneath
This is not the intended reason. Minor road over the major road results in a smaller bridge (cost); and allow entering vehicles to speed up on a down ramp, and exiting traffic to slow down on a up ramp (operation). Better visibility for safety when merging with oncoming main line, and diverging to any queues on the off-slip.
Frontage roadway is the simply answer to access management and land acquisition. Roundabouts handle complex multi-way service interchange better, and on itself already provides a safe u-turn opportunity without weaving.
>>
>>1708855
i do food delivery in these neighborhoods sometimes. there is always traffic, every block has a 4 way stop sign (and the blocks are small), and theres speed bumps everywhere. a 4 mile trip takes 15-20 minutes
>>
>>1709036
sounds great for pedestrians :)
>>
>>1708859
This sounds extremely comfy. If I didn't have elderly family I can't leave behind, I'd try to find a place like this in a heartbeat.
Maybe when they pass, but hopefully that's long away.
>>
>>1708135
Looks way better than cookie cutter tract housing.

Plus you can walk a minute and immediately be in the countryside, it’s awesome. Maybe you wouldn’t like it if you hate nature.
Also your claim about it being all apartments was retarded lol, guess you were looking at a different picture.
>>
File: urbanvssurburban.jpg (84 KB, 750x466)
84 KB
84 KB JPG
>>1708135
I would rather be surrounded by beautiful green countryside than surrounded by 6 lane roads and fast food joints because "muh yard". Btw lots of new suburban developments are apartments without yards, so your point is moot
>>
>>1709363
>Looks way better than cookie cutter tract housing.
Nah just different

>Plus you can walk a minute and immediately be in the countryside, it’s awesome.
Just buy your own land in the sticks if you want the country side so bad. It's cheap

>>1709706
>pic of 3 story apartment buildings
>celebrating it
Sad
>>
>>1709709
I posted suburban apartments with a walk score of 0, genius. I see these shits off every fucking interstate where i live. The point is that your argument that "sprawl means everybody gets a yard" is wrong.
>>
>>1709709
>Just buy your own land in the sticks if you want the country side so bad. It's cheap
It would be nice to have nature and the option of a local community in walking distance, as opposed to being alone isolated and 25 minutes from a Wal-Mart
>>
>>1709363
When I visited England I remember being impressed at how easily you could go from the city center to the countryside and see sheep pastures. You get a lot of benefits if you don’t create 15 miles of suburban sprawl between your city and your countryside.
Also in the villages you could have both walkability and countryside.
>>
>>1707721
The cagetrolls get butthurt about any urban development so they try to conflate it with sprawl.
That image is a great way to build new.
>>
>>1709720
kys
>>
>>1709737
I just don’t get this mentality that it’s ok for cities to expand outwardly infinitely as long as the buildings are 4 stories tall instead of 2. It’s still sprawl.
>>
>>1709739
Its the largest city on earth dude, most cities aren't going to look like Tokyo. If Atlanta or Houston had Tokyo density, they would take up a little more than 10% of their current metro area. Thats a massive fucking difference
>>
>>1709740
Okay? My point is that people are ok with cities expanding outwards as long as the buildings are apartments and stores instead of houses. It really doesn’t make any sense.
>>
>>1709740
It looks like this cagetroll has a learning disability.
>>
>>
>>1709841
Population... has grown over time??? Get outta here lol
>>
File: 1632111478339.jpg (192 KB, 1025x540)
192 KB
192 KB JPG
>>
>>1709739
Most buildings in Tokyo are 2 stories tall single family houses.
>>
File: 1565586933516.jpg (22 KB, 480x480)
22 KB
22 KB JPG
>>1709841
Reminder that as much as people like to hate on freeways, even the freeways in Houston have had just one (maybe two, in a few rare cases) major re-do in all of their freeways with nothing but routine maintenance happening in-between.
>>
>>1709937
Houston has a shitton of freeways and a shitton of traffic because of it.
>>
>>1710024
Yeah and the subway delivers food to stores, and you can take it to other cities too!
But thanks for your low-IQ take though.
>>
>>1709706
>lots of new suburban developments are apartments without yards
That's just stupid. Ther people who move to the suburbs want to live away from other people, not in an apartment with them.
>>
>>1709841
>let more people in
>"oh no, traffic's bad"
>let more people in
>"oh no, traffic's bad"
>let more people in
>"oh no, traffic's bad"
Remember, in 1950 California had 10 Million people living there. 1970 there were 20 Million. Today it's over 40.
>>
>>1707790
This works as long as we enforce the death penalty for murder.
>>
>>1710037
Plenty of time to convert to better public transit. What's your point?
>>
>>1709841
I understand if you want to make an 8-lane freeway somewhere in an industrial area but that many lanes in a major city is just retarded. Doesn’t do anything to help traffic flow either.
>>
>>1710037
How do you propose to stop people moving into places that have demand for labor? Are you going to build a big wall around your town and shoot anyone who comes in? What about children who grow up and need to move out into a new household, do they get exiled?
Your whole theme of "cities should never grow ever for any reason" doesn't really work. Even in a world of static population growth, people will want to move from depressed places to successful places.
>>
>>1710060
>Are you going to build a big wall around your town and shoot anyone who comes in?
You joke, but that is how rightoid "brains" operate
>>
>>1710060
Ask China how they’re doing it in Beijing and Shanghai.

How would you actually cap the population? Same way as China. Limit the amount of housing.
>>
>>1710057
Have you considered maybe those buildings came AFTER the freeway was built?
>>
>>1710054
He doesn’t have any point, he just wants all cities demolished and covered in asphalt. He’s a retard.
>>
File: 756756.jpg (88 KB, 640x652)
88 KB
88 KB JPG
>>1710060
>How do you propose to stop people moving into places that have demand for labor?
Tax newcomers by positive discrimination into oblivion (make ridonculous general level of taxation for persons basically making life nonsustainable but make tax relieves fro locals).
>>
>>1710129
China doesn't limit the amount of housing, they have a weird pseudo-feudal system that ties rural villagers to their land. Adults migrate to the cities to live in off-the-books accommodations and leave their children back at home, where they qualify for state services, because they can only get public school in the place they were born.
So unless you're advocating for totalitarian neo-feudalism (with Chinese characteristics) I think your solution is untenable. It's not even working all that well for China.
>>
>>
>>1710286
Yeah… about that
>>
File: popcap.png (1.83 MB, 1284x1346)
1.83 MB
1.83 MB PNG
>>1710245
>China doesn't limit the amount of housing

You’re right, they go further and literally destroy housing.
>>
File: pepe cry.jpg (55 KB, 600x600)
55 KB
55 KB JPG
My graduating class in university has 2 urban planning majors. We're so fucked.
>>
File: 1544203293648.png (132 KB, 407x286)
132 KB
132 KB PNG
>>1710024
>a shitton of freeways and a shitton of traffic because of it
Induced demand is a meme. There's correlation to be sure but half-informed YouTube videos have taken it to the proportions that traffic will practically generate in a vacuum.
>>
>>1709085
Except for the
>always traffic
part. Cars on the road suck if you’re in a car, on a bike, or walking. Ultimately, every problem with gridlock on the highways, congested cities, slow commutes, and loud cities can be summarized as “there’s too many cars on the road”, instead of the typically assumed “the roads don’t have enough capacity”. As much as I’d prefer pedestrian and bike infrastructure because I like my commute to be light cardio and it keeps me from having to deal with people of the city, the actual way to fix this is with better public transportation: BRT and light rail (regular busses suck because they just get caught in traffic, are always late, and are indirect routes where driving is faster).
>>
>>1710299
is that too many or not enough
>>
>>1710409
Too many. Field is saturated
>>
>>1707999
Japan truly is paradise on Earth.
>>
>>1710340
Induced demand is empirically proven by decades of studies, you just claim it’s not real because it hurts your feelings. Quit being such a snowflake lol.
>>
>>1710288
Cool cherrypicked opinion.
Traffic got better in Seoul after they removed the expressway.
>>
>>1710435
>Induced demand is empirically proven by decades of studies
No it's not. It's a catchphrase that has been published over several decades. There is no such thing as "induced demand," there is only demand.

>>1710438
>Traffic got better in Seoul after they removed the expressway.
For that one thoroughfare, maybe. Obviously it didn't help anywhere else.
>>
>>1710441
I’m just posting facts though. Don’t be such a snowflake. Traffic in Seoul improved after they removed the expressway. It happens a lot of places.

https://freakonomics.com/2011/05/13/does-destroying-highways-solve-urban-traffic-congestion/
>>
>>1710450
>I’m just posting facts though.
But there is evidence to the contrary that it did nothing that's already been posted itt
>>
>>1710487
They posted evidence that traffic is still bad, not that it didn’t improve. Traffic probably just got less bad, and worsened with an increase of population, but it’d be worst if the lane remained. So it helped, but not enough to make traffic good.
>>
>>1710487
Where is your purported evidence?
Personally I’ve posted lots of evidence proving that freeways don’t help traffic but you can’t post a single thing.
>>
>>1710505
Maybe traffic doesn’t get better because they city’s population is constantly growing and there are tens of thousands of new cars on the road every year?
>>
>>1710499
>So it helped
Opinion

>>1710505
>Where is your purported evidence?
>>1710288

>Personally I’ve posted lots of evidence
You're posted lots of screencaps, yes
>>
>>1709742
This is stupid and so are you. You're missing the point that cities can be designed different. Sprawl occurs when a city is large in size AND things are far apart. Alternatively, you can have a huge city but everything anyone needs is located in their neighbourhood and accessible within a 15 minute by walk. In that case the city can "spread" perfectly fine without causing too many issues.
>>
>>1710525
>This is stupid and so are you.
Why do /n/imbys have to resort to name-calling? Can't they just make a point without insulting people, or are they really that desperate?
>>
>>1710520
That’s not evidence, that’s some random guy’s opinion piece. And it doesn’t even say traffic got worse after the freeway removal.

Meanwhile we have kids of evidence showing that adding lanes to freeways makes traffic worse.

If that’s the best you can do you’ll just have to admit you don’t have any evidence. But we already knew that.
>>
>>1710553
>That’s not evidence, that’s some random guy’s opinion piece.
And your screencaps are different how?

>Meanwhile we have kids of evidence showing that adding lanes to freeways makes traffic worse.
No, we're just not adding enough highway capacity. We're not meeting demand.

>If that’s the best you can do you’ll just have to admit you don’t have any evidence.
Again, all you posted were screencaps.
>>
>>1710583
>We're not meeting demand.
how much freeway space is needed before the entire city is freeways?
>>
>>1710585
>how much freeway space is needed before the entire city is freeways?
You should research that.
>>
>>1710587
we don't even know? just gonna keep expanding and hope eventually it's enough?
>>
>>1710588
That would be an interesting subject for you to write a dissertation on
>>
>>1710588
Just bulldoze the entire city and make it a parking lot for Costco. Bulk groceries and gas is all anyone needs to buy. Anything specific can be shopped for on Amazon. Your suburban house or apartment has a TV for recreation. There’s no need for anything else.
>>
>>1710598
/n/imby resorts to histrionics as usual
>>
>>1710610
I want grocery stores, pubs, and offices in my backyard. Actually, I live in a very pedestrianable neighborhood with those things, if it weren’t for the 5-lane road right and 5-lane stroad next to where I live. The road is okay because I can walk on the side streets next to it. The stroad has a sidewalk that will just randomly and and dump you into 40 mph traffic.
>>
>>1710647
>I want grocery stores, pubs, and offices in my backyard.
Alright. Move somewhere that has those.

>stroad
There's already a "stroad" thread going on if you just want to regurgitate buzzwords.

>and dump you into 40 mph traffic.
If you're too dumb to see where the sidewalk ends, that's your problem.
>>
>>1710658
Why does the sidewalk just end? I have another half mile to get to my destination. Do you think people should have to drive for a grocery store less than a mile away? And I use “Stroad” to separate it from the actually well designed road that it intersects. The road doesn’t have businesses directly on it, and keeps that to the side streets along it. This stops traffic constantly being slowed down by cars entering/leaving, and gives pedestrians a reasonably safe area to walk (for overkill, it even has separated sidewalks that don’t randomly end until you get to the highways). Of course, you’re probably a fat bastard who’s never walked a distance further than your couch to your car.
>>
>>1710672
>Why does the sidewalk just end?
Lack of demand, I would presume.

>I have another half mile to get to my destination.
Take it up with the city, or simply get a car.

>And I use “Stroad” to separate it from the actually well designed road that it intersects.
Roads I like = roads
Roads I don't like = stroads
Very scientific and totally not a buzzword

>Of course, you’re probably a fat bastard who’s never walked a distance further than your couch to your car.
Why do /n/imbys have to resort to name-calling? Can't they just make a point without insulting people, or are they really that desperate?
>>
>>1710675
>get a car
>shut up and buy product
>your wallet has too much money, and the insurance companies need it
>finance the Saudis. What’s the worst that will happen?
And “stroad” is a street with businesses on it, but with speed limits and lane design like you shouldn’t be expecting people to be going in/out of driveways and parking lots. Roads are used only to get to/from a destination point. Streets are the destination point, and are slow with businesses and residences along them. Why can’t you understand that road design should be based around how the road should be used?
I also name call you because you refuse to understand points, and you can’t understand because you have never even attempted to walk anywhere. You probably whine about taxes, while using public infrastructure that you don’t pay enough taxes to actually support (city plumbing and sewer, road maintenance).
>>
File: nimbrainlet.png (64 KB, 715x780)
64 KB
64 KB PNG
>>1710526
>literal nimby who wants nothing to disturb his backyard calling others a nimby
>completely avoiding the point of the post
>>
>>1710685
>And “stroad” is a street with businesses on it,
There's no such thing as a stroad. It's just a normal road you do not like.

>Roads are used only to get to/from a destination point.
Yep. That's what roads are for, to get places. Thus, the term "stroad" is superfluous and its definition will vary from person to person, so it can take a place next to other buzzwords like "smart growth."

>I also name call you because you refuse to understand points
Maybe you're just not making good points.

>You probably whine about taxes, while using public infrastructure that you don’t pay enough taxes to actually support (city plumbing and sewer, road maintenance).
Go ahead and post cherry_picked.jpg from your blog. You know you want to.

>>1710693
Not an argument.
>>
>>1710675
>Why do /n/imbys have to resort to name-calling
you're running out of material cagie, you already used this line in another thread >>1710678
>>
>>1710702
>you already used this line in another thread
Yes, let me know when you have an answer instead of resorting to name-calling.
>>
>>1710704
:^)
>>
>>1707943
no, it’s saying the natural way cities expand is to have another city pop up nearby and eventually merge into one big city that still functions like a normal smaller city because it’s literally just a couple of cities that touched
for example, my city is three cities that naturally popped up around a river delta
my grandfather’s town has 2 churches because it used to be 2 villages 200 years ago, etc
>>
>>1710698
>There's no such thing as a stroad. It's just a normal road you do not like.
wrong
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroad
>>
>>1710716
Not an argument

>>1710723
I'm right. "Stroad" was a term invented by a blogger. Wikipedia a starting point for research, but hardly authoritative.
>>
>>1710737
all words are made up, keep crying cunt, stroad isn't disappearing just cuz it hurts your feelings.
>>
>>1710737
blogger is a word invented by a blogger
>>
>>1710743
People will take your arguments seriously if you don't stoop to name-calling.
>>
>>1710737
you know wikipedia has other sources right? other people besides that blog use the term.
>>
>>1710754
you never take any argument seriously. you're not on /n/ to discuss, you just want to fight and argue, you never change your mind, nobody here likes you, yet you stick around to "le troll"
what a sad existence.
>>
>>1710754
people will take your arguments seriously if you aren't such a fucking pussy, cunt
>>
File: 1632015131956.png (420 KB, 462x462)
420 KB
420 KB PNG
What does an average day in the life of an urban planner look like?
>>
>>1710755
>you know wikipedia has other sources right?
One source listed is a student newspaper, and another is a youtube video.

>other people besides that blog use the term.
Yes like the people at Jalopnik. Oh wait, that's a blog.

>>1710758
I don't take bad arguments like yours seriously.

>>1710760
I accept your concession of defeat.
>>
>>1710764
>i'll ignore bloomberg cuz it's not credible and i don't like it
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-01-07/defining-the-worst-type-of-street-design
kekeroni cagie
>>
>>1707733
Places like Dubai and Las Vegas or The Villages in Florida are exactly those types of places
>>
>>1710765
>Bloomberg CityLab
aka a blog
>>
>>1710768
no it's bloomberg.com, aka a reputable news org.
>>
>>1710763
lots of paperwork
>>
>>1710773
CityLab looks like a blog to me. Regardless, Bloomberg is a journalistic organization, not a public policy/urban issues research group. I would find a more academic source before leaning too heavily on CityLab.
>>
>>1710782
>words are only words if some college professor says so
wow anon you're so intelligent.
>>
>>1710784
Let me know when you come up with something substantive. Until then, "stroad" is just a buzzword invented by a blogger.
>>
>>1710788
and it'll continue to be used and you'll keep crying
>>
>>1710794
>and it'll continue to be used
by bloggers, of course
>>
File: file.png (404 KB, 680x459)
404 KB
404 KB PNG
>>1710797
>>
>>1710799
Why can't /n/imbys make reasoned arguments?
>>
File: spiderman-thats-it.gif (1008 KB, 498x280)
1008 KB
1008 KB GIF
>>1710806
>>
>>1710797
The fact that I can say streets and roads are different things and most people will agree shows they are different things. Streets are meant to access residential and commercial areas. Roads are meant to travel long distances at high speeds. A combination of the two sucks at both tasks, being too loud and dangerous for residents to live on, funneling traffic away from businesses who need feet, and with constant entrances, exits, and people even attempting to use things slowing down traffic that wants to drive. A combination word is used to describe this, like how a “spork” is a combination of a fork and spoon. Why don’t you understand that different driving surfaces serve different purposes, and should be designed to fit those purposes?
>>
>>1710829
Well, again, that all boils down to what your personal definitions of streets and roads are.
>>
>>1710435
Read the post again for what it's actually saying.
>>
>>1710833
But you agree they are different things? And you agree that business and residential access hurts driving, and fast through traffic hurts business and residential activities?
>>
>>1710837
>But you agree they are different things?
I do not agree with that statement. I think the terms are so nebulous and there is enough overlap from on term to the next that they may as well not be definable.

>And you agree that business and residential access hurts driving, and fast through traffic hurts business and residential activities?
Although I neither agree nor disagree, I think your outline here--that lots of driveways impairs traffic/fast traffic isn't conducive to business & residential areas--is a better overall approach to the matter than making up new words for already obfuscated, ill-defined terms.
>>
>>1710837
Not that anon, but what is "fast traffic"? 40 mph isn't "too fast" for commercial areas, but dog slow for highways. Luckily, there is a name for a faster street with more capacity, they call them "avenues". Novel concept!

>>1710829
"A combination I don't like" isn't a reason why it's bad. Take mixed-use zoning, for instance, you could argue "well, it doesn't have enough parking and accessibility for a typical commercial business, and residents have to deal with the same accessibility problems as well as problems related to delivery, etc....blah, blah, blah, mixed-use zoning is BAD and we shouldn't have it" but mixed-use zoning is worshipped and accepted as the "default" in these circles, despite its hybridized approach with disadvantages in both.
>>
>>1710845
With mixed use zoning, commercial and residential are not fundamentally opposed, and your city should be designed primarily for walking instead of driving, so parking should be in limited areas, and you walk to where you want. However, driveway and lot access are fundamentally opposed to through fair. It cannot work because the ideas are opposite: stopping and a place and going by a place.

>>1710844
Well, using the words “road” and “street” to describe the two different concepts (a stop and use pavement vs a travel by pavement) is useful. Calling a crap combination of the two something else is useful in text. The combination word gets the point across fastest. You could say something like “Avenue”, but that is not as good at getting the point across that it’s a combination of different concepts and design philosophies. You could say “shitty road slowed down by parking and driveways” or “shitty uncrossable and excessively big street”. Though that is biasing towards a purpose, while saying “stroad” gets across the point that this is a combination of the two, and should be redesigned to pick which use you want it to be: business and residential use, or a throughfare taking you to the next town or access street a significant distance away.
>>
>>1710853
>while saying “stroad” gets across the point that this is a combination of the two
It just further muddies the issue to regular people. Imo it's better to say what the problem with a particular thoroughfare really is (such as too many driveways for commercial spaces, too much traffic in a residential area, etc.)
>>
>>1710860
A meme word might help it stick in people’s heads so they know to look out for it. But are we in agreement that whatever it’s called, it’s poor design?
>>
>>1710506
If true, that would suggest that freeways and mass motorization do not scale and are not a mobility solution for major urban areas.
>>
>>1710860
Can’t believe you’re so hung up on semantics you won’t even argue a position on the underlying point. In fact, it feels to me like you don’t have any strong opinions on the issue. Why are you here? Are you just collecting (You)s?
>>
>>1710900
Okay
>>
Japan is much better. They don't waste space on bicycles. Yet still have walkable zoning, excellent mass transit, and decent enough to drive around.
>>
>>1708047
In 1885 all three areas were either villages or rice fields.
>>
>>1710880
>freeways and mass motorization do not scale
The most anti-american statement ever.
>>
>>1710880
They don't really "scale up" because cities are full of people, not models full of numbers. As a result, once a city reaches critical mass you can't really build your way out of it. In the long run, freeways are going to be the best "solution" when it comes to a fairly cost effective way of transporting people and goods across the city. This is why Los Angeles has the worst traffic in the U.S.A., but ranks around 30 worldwide, well below other cities (both European cities and South American shitholes) that have "better" transit options.
>>
>>1711041
>because cities are full of people
Giga americope.
Dharavi in Mumbai is really full of people, not an average US suburban cattle farm.

>freeways are going to be the best "solution" when it comes to a fairly cost effective way of transporting people and goods across the city
Source: my ass
>>
>>1708825
>reduces chance for hobo encampment to build underneath
but now you get scum throwing rocks or logs on the highway.

happens sometimes in Germany from bicycle bridges over the autobahn.
I am legit worried if there's someone just standing up there as i approach the bridge.
>>
>>1710860
>It just further muddies the issue to regular people
they can learn
>>
>>1711083
Actually, if you look at the picture, pedestrians aren't near the edge of the freeway, they're buffered by the turnaround lane, and avoids the intimidation of "on my side there's nothing but a chainlink fence separating me from my death" problem.
>>
>>1711041
>They don't really "scale up" because cities are full of people, not models full of numbers.
What if you count the people? Then you have a number. Count their cars, you have another number. If cars per person is over some number, then adding people increases highway usage faster than highways can be added.
>>
Jesus.
>>
>>1711031
So?
>>1710718
That's not an argument against sprawl being undesirable.
>>
>>1711342
A bunch of slums got torn down, so what?
>>
>>1711349
Omg shut the fuck up
>>
>>1710860
I'm not that anon, my first post in the thread:
If you have to spell out the whole definition of a common problem every time you talk about it, it makes your discussion long and unwieldy.
If I want to discuss the problem of "roads that have multiple wide straight lanes, as well as frequent driveways into business and residences, often flanked by large parking lots", I don't want to have to write that whole thing in every sentence. I want shorthand for that, so that I can say something brief and intelligible.
This is DEFINITELY a style of road in the USA, and it's not a fuzzy concept either. There are some grey areas, but there are also unmistakable examples and a consistent design philosophy. So it makes sense to have a word to describe this concept.

Even if you don't think there's enough of a distinction between road types in the USA to warrant official categories, it's still useful to have a word to describe that set of characteristics. Not every object has to perfectly follow a set of characteristics for you to want a word to refer to that set of characteristics.

There was no word for this concept so a word was chosen. I'm sorry you don't like the word chosen, but unfortunately for you enough other people want to discuss that topic and a word was chosen. That word was stroad.

I hope you can accept this unfortunate state of being we're in. The word goes away as soon as we have better streets and better roads, so I hope to see you at the polls voting for transit-focused candidates so we can put the ugly mess behind us.
>>
>>1711362
>If you have to spell out the whole definition of a common problem every time you talk about it, it makes your discussion long and unwieldy.
"Traffic is too fast/heavy for the area" or "there are too many driveways/turning traffic" resonate with people more than "it's a stroad" because the former are simple ideas that everyone knows and the latter is a buzzword from a blog than 99% of people haven't heard.

>and it's not a fuzzy concept either.
Yes it is.

>I'm sorry you don't like the word chosen
Being passive aggressive is so weak.
>>
>>1707605
Poundbury is deeply based. Stuff like that is the future of development, fuck modernism
>>
>>1711342
Wonder if we can find any pics from the other side of the street.
>>
Retvrn to tradition my dudes
>>
>>1708142
Finally some good fucking economics in this thread.
>>
>>1708221
Birth rates aren't above replacement rates but internal migration from economically declining areas to economically robust ones will still cause cities to gain in population even without net immigration.
>>
>>1708330
>Cloverleafs aren't very pedestrian friendly at all
Why the fuck does a highway need to be pedestrian friendly?
>>
>>1711591
The highway doesn’t eat. The lower capacity road that people are entering the highway from or exiting the highway to does need to be pedestrian friendly. We’re not talking about highway to highway interchange.
>>
>>1709897
I'm basically trying to get my city councilor to do something like this in the residential parts of town. Too many cagers use my street as a cut-through and barrel down the street way too quickly.
>>
>>1710035
>everyone in their car is delivering food to stores
>>
>>1710180
Define a "local". Aren't people who move to a city now "locals", or are you going to choose some retarded arbitrary time limit where you're considered to be a non-local?
>>
What does /UPG/ think about housing affordability requirements? I think they’re actually counterproductive.
>>
>>1711604
Definitely, they totally hurt margins.
>>
File: yimby.jpg (127 KB, 1061x348)
127 KB
127 KB JPG
>>1711604
>ancap YIMBY doesn't like rules that don't accelerate the slide to techno-feudalism

Shocking, let me guess your solution to the housing crisis is to put Elon Musk in charge of the FHA and have SpaceX/Tesla develop a privately run AI system for home loan approval that would pick the best proxy for race that SCOTUS would consider to be consistent with the 14th amendment?
>>
>>1711592
Oh that's my bad, I misunderstood. My apologies.
>>
>>1711604
Absent large scale upzoning and massive levels of housing construction, they're probably the best that renters can hope for. It lowers margins but so does not building in the first place.
>>
>>1711604
They’re stupid because I’ve seen many affordable units that require you to make over $110k so it defeats the point. It would be much better to regulate construction quality, design, environmental friendliness of the buildings.
>>
planned some urbans today lads
>>
>>1711619
I don’t have a problem with 20% affordability requirements but in the major cities people just demand like 45% in order to get a project blocked.
>>
>>1711620
My brother makes over 100k and he lives in an affordable housing unit in downtown Brooklyn. It’s stupid cause he’s every bit the gentrifier but he qualifies for affordable housing in a luxury building.
>>
>>1711367
But it's not just a road that's too fast, or has too many driveways. Either on its own is fine. It's specifically the combination of speed and driveways.
We want to discuss that trend, and not just specific roads either. We need a general term for the general concept. "High speed, high density" could work but that's 4 words instead of 1.

As for the obscurity of the term... This is an urban planning thread, not a thread for laymen, so what the layman understands is not my problem. Besides, the layman can go watch a YouTube video and understand the concept in about 30 seconds.
>>
>>1711629
45% is definitely excessive. I think 20% is good and honestly you might be able to get to 25% or even 30% with largely no change in development.
>>
>>1711639
>It's specifically the combination of speed and driveways.
In other words you have a problem with almost every road, so you need a way to demonize it, hence "stroad."

>so what the layman understands is not my problem
Good luck ever having any public support with that attitude
>>
>>1711643
>In other words you have a problem with almost every road, so you need a way to demonize it, hence "stroad."
your ability to misconstrue anyone's argument is astounding
>>
>>1711662
Like "smart growth," stroad is a term that can mean almost anything to anyone, so identifying the actual problems with any particular thoroughfare is more useful to rectifying them than dreaming up a nebulous term that most people are unfamiliar with
>>
>>1711666
>stroad is a term that can mean almost anything to anyone
proof?
>>
>>1711716
It has been defined different ways itt and others
>>
>>1711721
>words can't have more than one meaning
interesting
>>
>>1711726
Having more than one meaning just muddies the issue(s) at hand, especially when we've gotten this far without the need for nebulous buzzwords like "stroad."

Face it, the word was invented for one reason, a new way to seethe about cars online.
>>
>>1711727
it's weird how upset you get over a simple word
i'd suggest taking a break from the internet
or at least /n/
we can have some nice threads without your seething for once.
>>
>>1711728
>you're mad!
Cope
>>
>>1707619
You sound like you envy people that are more successful than you.
>>
>>1711743
I think he has a point. All of the master planned "new urbanism"-type communities look completely plastic
>>
When you build your city around cars, you get the worst traffic in the world.
>>
File: 5234534.jpg (60 KB, 1100x519)
60 KB
60 KB JPG
>>1711777
>when commie /n/imbies are in chagre

>owing cities face extreme population growth but have underdeveloped infrastructure. Bogotá, Colombia, topped this year's list of the most traffic-congested cities, with drivers on average losing about 191 hours – nearly eight days – each year in congestion. Five of the 10 cities with the worst traffic congestion are in Latin America, the report found.
>>
>>1711790
neither Bogota nor Colombia are run by communists
>>
File: 5366345.jpg (62 KB, 763x464)
62 KB
62 KB JPG
>>1711795
typical left wing
>gibs gibs more gibs
>>
>>1711797
>posts budget of a conservative budget
>calls it left wing
I'd love to run my fingers over your smooth brain.
>>
2003 VS today

We’re slowly getting better.
>>
>>1711643
>In other words you have a problem with almost every road, so you need a way to demonize it, hence "stroad."
Only if almost every road has high speeds with lots of driveways. If they do then yes, I hate them. But they don't. So you're just strawmanning.

You're correct that using stroad won't win over the public, but this thread is not a campaign.
>>
Is this the "walkability" urbanists push for?
>>
1711900 (You)
>>
>>1711870
>slowly getting better
Higher resolution, at least.

I found out the other day that when my city cleans up some kind of industrial waste, usually from decades past, they ship all of the material to 'Detroit'. I had a giggle at first, as if the only use for the place was storing toxic waste.

But I looked it up and 1) really it's closer to Ann Arbor, and 2) the facility has more advanced technology than anything in my state (the proper means of deactivating/storing/processing the stuff).

But it'll be a long while before Detroit stops being the butt of the joke.
>>
File: detroit.gif (2.08 MB, 1400x700)
2.08 MB
2.08 MB GIF
>>1711342
What happened in Detroit is shameful.
>>
File: cincinnati.gif (2.1 MB, 1400x700)
2.1 MB
2.1 MB GIF
Cincinnati is pretty startling too.
They also had an electric streetcar system--222 miles of track, integrated with several inclines/funiculars--closed in 1951, then dismantled.
>>
>>1711925
Anti-catholic war in US, illustrated.
>>
File: Glasgow.jpg (554 KB, 1913x883)
554 KB
554 KB JPG
>>1711342
Running a motorway through the middle of a city is definitely not confined to America.
>>
>>1711873
>So you're just strawmanning.
Hardly

>You're correct that using stroad won't win over the public, but this thread is not a campaign.
Correct, your point of view will only be important to fringe types.
>>
>>1711953
>Picks the only example of it in the UK
>Widely regarded as a bad decision
>Not repeated since
>>
>>1711967
You missed his point
>>
>>1711925
Yeah the stupid thing is people thought it would be good for the city’s economy to widen the roads and bulldoze the historic buildings to make parking lots. Turns out it was the exact opposite.
>>
>>1711974
If that was true, how do you explain all the cities that have thrived since the construction of their expressways?
>>
Slowly Americans are figuring out how to improve their cities. Asphalt wastelands aren’t inviting places.
>>
>>1711983
How do you explain the continued growth of cities when taking interstates and expressways into consideration? It appears that, if anything, they enabled their sustained growth.
>>
>>1711983
Implying that large-scale development projects are significantly better than asphalt fileds.
>>
>>1711900
Bet he still logged on to /n/ that night to bitch about cagers.
>>
>>1711604
just make the government build houses
>>
>>1711747
True, but they don't look as plastic as modern suburbs. So its an improvement, a step in the right direction at least
>>
>>1712012
>but they don't look as plastic as modern suburbs.
They look more plastic than modern subdivisions. No one's expecting the authenticity of a quaint little downtown when they drive into one, but that's what master planned cities try and fail to do.

>So its an improvement
This is just my experience so it might be wrong, but they've been way more expensive than normal subdivisions, to the point where middle income buyers don't see enough value in them to live there or can't afford them outright.
>>
>>1711954
>Hardly
You told me my opinion for me, except you were incorrect. Your projected opinion was an absurd one, thus a strawman.

>Correct, your point of view will only be important to fringe types.
Musicians should never refer to musical modes, because most listeners don't even know what a major key is.
Investors should never refer to collateralized debt obligations, because the layman doesn't even understand stocks.
Scientists need to stop using Latin names and call everything with their colloquial names, because people will think every crocodilia is a crocodile.
>>
>>1712016
>You told me my opinion for me, except you were incorrect. Your projected opinion was an absurd one, thus a strawman.
I didn't desu.

>Musicians should never refer to musical modes, because most listeners don't even know what a major key is.
>Investors should never refer to collateralized debt obligations, because the layman doesn't even understand stocks.
>Scientists need to stop using Latin names and call everything with their colloquial names, because people will think every crocodilia is a crocodile.
Now all of these are legit straw man arguments
>>
Gowanus upzoning going into effect. While this is more good than bad, I wonder why they’re so willing to upzone the affluent white neighborhood but it’s apparently evil to upzone bed stuy or neighborhoods further south.

https://www.planetizen.com/news/2021/09/114752-gowanus-rezoning-clears-new-yorks-city-planning-commission
>>
>>1711996
Yep, those developments are significantly better than asphalt wastelands.
Also lol’d at “fields” of asphalt.
>>
>>1712079
>Yep
Yep?
>>
>>1712084
Yeah
>>
>>1712079
That much asphalt in a flood-prone city like Houston is just asking for disaster.
>>
>>1712090
Elaborate for us, Wang
>>
>>1711982
Population growth, primarily, along with the development of the high-tech sectors.
>>
>>1711609
I agree I wish that would happen.
You sound like a commie negro.
>>
>>1711342
black people ruined detroit.
>>
>>1711984
>It appears that, if anything, they enabled their sustained growth.
Not sure you can conclude that. To even begin to look into that you would have to find comparable cities where some did build urban highways and while others didn't. "Comparable" is what makes it difficult here: you have to make sure that the difference in city trajectory (if any) can't be easily explained by, for example, loss of industry due to offshoring, or stagnation from cuts to some major regional employer (for example, a university), or even just different population growth rates.

I'm sure that we can go back and forth all day cherry picking cities which built highways and thrived, or those that didn't build highways and thrived, etc. We'd just get nowhere.
>>
>>1712104
>>1712103
>comparable cities where some did build urban highways and while others didn't
What cities don't have urban highways? Keep in mind I was specifically talking about the US.
>>
>>1712077
>the affluent white neighborhood
You just answered the question yourself.

While they should be upzoning all of those neighbourhoods, the people on the council are convinced of this (blatantly false) theory that upzoning poorer or less white neighbourhoods leads to "gentrification" which is bad for reasons that often are incomplete or circular logic. Of course, the reality is that "gentrification" doesn't really mean anything and what they're actually concerned about is displacement, but the empirical evidence shows that the upzoning of a low-density area, even if it's poor, leads to less displacement.
>>
>>1712106
In the US, Washington, D.C. is probably the most major one with minimal urban highways (it's just basically got the 395/695 running through the southern part of the core), Manhattan itself doesn't really have any highways other than FDR Drive and the I-95 running through Washington Heights.

Outside the US but still nearby you have cities like Montreal and Vancouver.
>>
File: houston-center.jpg (84 KB, 920x558)
84 KB
84 KB JPG
>>1712079
Daily reminder that those parking lots were created because a lot of that was torn out for a large-scale development that never actually happened. Not that's especially easy to find, much less for a large contingent of this site that just regurgitates blog and YouTube talking points instead of thinking for themselves.
>>
>>1712094
Not him, but roads and parking lots are impervious surfaces which increases water runoff during heavy rains and so can lead to catastrophic flash floods.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1257665/
>>
>>1712031
Well I think we're at the point of the conversation where we've both made our points and we're just going to argue passed each other... It's been fun my friend but even the best debates must end ;__;7
>>
>>1707932
You know nothing about Japan or Korea





Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.