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"Stop admiring Europe for it's supposedly better planning, beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-Edition
>>
>Stop admiring Europe for it's supposedly better planning, beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US
Eh. Only recently have I seen the development of truely awful same-old same-old Americanised suburban planning. It's ugly rubbish that only shows how overpopulated England really is. I've always been a fan of urban planning that looks as if several layers of history has been slathered on top, like a marbling of different architectural styles. I happen to live in a village that fits that description.

I think Poundbury is a good example of new suburban planning that actually works and doesn't look like the same house copy-pasted in the middle of nowhere where your only local business is a Sainsburys Local and an industrial park.
>>
>>1707605
isn't that the fake play town of prince charles
>>
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>>1707615
Pretty much anything new but planned to look like an old timey disney town will have a repulsive uncanny valley vibe. "Urbanists" are always trying to mass produce the old money neighborhoods they covet in old cities because such places have the most prestige. They copy the superficial traits, open a sales office, boring bougie types people move in, they get confused when it fails because they expected hemophiliac old world aristocrats to appear out of nowhere and bleed some of their prestige onto it, and for some weird reason that didn't happen, and then they engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why it didn't work this time and next time it will totally work I swear you just have to abolish all laws and privatize literally everything including rain.
>>
>>1707601
>"Stop admiring Europe for it's supposedly better planning, beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-Edition
maybe if you keep reeee'ing about yurp you'll magic a few trains, walkable urban cores, etc, into existence. lol

>>1707605
lol this dickhead lives in Royston Vasey and thinks it gives him perspective on overpopulation

>>1707619
i don't know who you are but i'm pretty sure you're a jerk
>>
>>1707619
Bay St. Louis is such a shithole
>>
>>1707619
>new buildings must always be concrete and glass abominations
>>
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>>1707634
What this person said, except sincerely
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Liquid Grid
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Return to monke.
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>>1707654
Thats how you get sprawling megacities like Beijing and Shanghai
>>
>>1707654
Based
There’s a traditional style development near my parents’ house with a little town center, a park, and rowhouses. It also has fenced in the front lawn which is something you usually don’t see in suburbia. Very cozy.
>>
> american suburbs were always shi~~
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzBL85kTwwo
>>
>>1707680
At least you guys found a new channel to repeat stuff from
>>
>>1707640
>tripfag has garbage taste
of course
>>
>>1707682
cope seethe dilate
>>
>>1707601
>exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-
Interestingly, most Europeans have a shop and a pub in walking distance.
>>
>>1707654
look at the sprawlfag
look at him and laugh
>>
>>1707601
>beyond the few really big cities you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US."-Edition
Unironically kinda true for some parts of Europe. Public transport in places like Ireland fucking sucks, they're saved by the fact that they were too poor in the 1950s to have gone full Auto
>>
>>1707619
Prince Charles literally is an old world aristocrat though
>>
>>1707657
>>1707689
imagine thinking that image is promoting sprawl
>>
>>1707619
so is that a yes to my question >>1707615 or what
>>
>>1707721
It is, just denser sprawl
>>
>>1707723
so do you consider all human development sprawl?
>>
Are there any examples of cities that were consciously designed for a very specific type of person - it seems that there's this constant one size fits all approach in so much modern planning, for once I'd like to see a city be really edgy and do something extreme, with the idea that only the people who like that style of living would go there.
>>
>>1707733
>cities that were consciously designed for a very specific type of person
What kind of person?
>>
>>1707724
Yes, if it spreads out over a large area of land
>>
>>1707737
lol wrong
Sprawl can't exist without strict zoning.
>>
>>1707745
Sprawl is just a city expanding outwards to cover more area, zoning has nothing to do with it.
>>
>>1707749
.>city expanding outwards to cover more area
...with single-use zones.
>>
>>1707752
Urban sprawl is literally just when an urban area sprawls out

>urban sprawl as far as the eye can see
>>
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>>1707619
This is what I've been trying to tell people for years, they claim to hate suburbs and love the real "urban" vibe, what they really want is outdoor shopping malls with apartments built over them. Same "pedestrian-friendly", same ultra-planned development, different packaging. There's nothing actually wrong with this--but it's framed so dishonestly that anyone who talks about it is probably a charlatan who repeats the same talking points.
>>
>>1707688
>most Europeans have a shop and a pub in walking distance
This.
2 grocery stores, 2 pubs, one gyros shop, a barber, two restaurants, a bowling place and a car wash, and I live in a de facto "suburb" of Budapest
>>
>>1707758
Why did you post a picture of single-use area and not a picture of proper city?

>>1707761
>who repeats the same talking points.
(You)
>>
>>1707765
Here’s a proper city for you, Tokyo. Any growing city will grow out and up, never just up. The only reason Seoul hasn’t sprawled out even more is that it’s population has been declining for decades.
>>
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>>1707761
>hat they really want is outdoor shopping malls with apartments built over them.
Why outdoor ? Indoors are obviously superior. Always perfect weather. No cars, cyclists, dogs or other animals.
>>
>>1707619
>>1707761
>Pretty much anything new but planned to look like an old timey disney town will have a repulsive uncanny valley vibe. "Urbanists" are always trying to mass produce the old money neighborhoods they covet in old cities because such places have the most prestige. They copy the superficial traits, open a sales office, boring bougie types people move in, they get confused when it fails because they expected hemophiliac old world aristocrats to appear out of nowhere and bleed some of their prestige onto it, and for some weird reason that didn't happen, and then they engage in all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why it didn't work this time and next time it will totally work I swear you just have to abolish all laws and privatize literally everything including rain.
I second this very deeply.
For too much of our thinking on neo urbanist planning is awfully stuck proposing ancient forms with little understanding how most of it actually worked and why it developed that way, while fundamentally lacking a viable proposal for the present and future or it consists of pipedream for new communities, while ignoring the importance of incremental change Charles Marohn preached about the last decade.

Look for example at Poundbury (and pretty much every older town and city in mediocre to poor economic shape):
Why are so many window fronts empty or filled with trash or businesses that don't really need such a storefront and/or seem awfully out of place?
Because there used to be businesses there (or at least in the places on which you based your town upon), serving the local community in mostly specialized ways which have long become obsolete due to replacement by larger shops, supermarkets and the internet (for example fishmongers, ironmongers and most corner shops (outside the US at least).
Some other things to look at are also the vastly different commuting patterns that came with the automobile and social structures historic towns had.
>>
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>>1707733
peachtree georgia is entirely based around golf courses and golf carts for old people, with small roads specifically made for golf carts as the main form of transportation. funnily despite golf being a super boomer activity that should be the opposite of urbanism, the golf cart paths are great for bikes and golf carts are safer and better for the environment so it works out to be not bad.
>>
>>1707777
You purposefully ignore the quality of expansion and that's what makes sprawl (single-zoned overexpansion) and organic expansion (creation of new cities in close proximity) different.
Tokyo metro area has some "new cities" and the most known examples are Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro.

>>1707791
> serving the local community in mostly specialized ways which have long become obsolete due to replacement by larger shops, supermarkets and the internet
> Some other things to look at are also the vastly different commuting patterns that came with the automobile
Reject modernity.
>>
>>1707809
>creation of new cities in close proximity

So suburbs?
>>
Poundbury was actually quite successful and the design is better than 99% of new development I’ve seen. They even made a 2nd one.
>>
>>1707642
Has anyone ever done this? Seems like it could work pretty well
>>
>>1707856
Milton Keynes.
>>
>>1707777
posting the largest city on the planet is not a good argument one way or another, as it is clearly an outlier. HOWEVER, consider what a similar populated American city would look like. You think Tokyo is bad? Imagine if Atlanta is given the same population size. It would be even larger than tokyo now.
>>
>>1707913
Why hasn’t it happened in the US then? Because cities fill up, they get too expensive, and people live in other cities instead, and population distributes itself more evenly.

Also, in the US people have options of where they can live. In megacities like Seoul and Tokyo, there’s no options, it’s all just tiny apartments as far as the eye can see.
>>
>>1707916
>cities fill up, they get too expensive, and people live in other cities instead
hmm yes, reality IS just like your cities skylines. indeed,
>>
>>1707921
Projection. But regardless I think it’s cool that in the US you have lots of different lifestyles to choose from, vs Korea and Japan where your choice is either tiny apartment megacity wagie or poverty line farmer.
>>
>>1707657
not if you mandate green belts between towns.
cities should be condensed and "small" with rural areas nearby [~5km from center]
>>
>>1707935
Greenbelts just delay the inevitable.
>>
>>1707916
>Why hasn’t it happened in the US then?
US has space to spread outward.
Japan is pretty much full. Japan is mostly mountains, all falt lands ate either fields or buldii. Well Japan HAD space to spread out in past but then they run out of space.
>>
>>1707935
Still the image in >>1707654 is basically saying that it's okay for cities to sprawl out horizontally as long as it's dense. I mean you have to for an infinitely growing city unless you want to keep knocking down and rebuilding burj khalifas, and that's how you get megacities
>>
And having literally every industry concentrated in one city is bad for people. Despite urbanist approved zoning laws, they’re still facing an affordability crisis.

https://www.businessinsider.com/seoul-home-prices-rising-pandemic-south-korea-report-2021-4

> The city has faced an increasingly dire affordability crisis since President Moon Jae-in took office in 2017. Despite the government announcing nearly two dozen measures to curb increases over the past three years, home prices in Seoul have risen by 50% since 2017, per a Reuters report.

Maybe building more homes is inducing demand and making the prices even higher?
>>
>>1707932
>Korea and Japan where your choice is either tiny apartment megacity wagie or poverty line farmer.
Somehow, I doubt this is correct. Perhaps you are mistaken.
>>
>>1707940
>Japan is pretty much full.
>they run out of space
That's an interesting thing to say. What makes you say that?
>>
>>1707822
Again, don't ignore inconvenient words in my posts, like:
>single-zoned overexpansion
or
>Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro
>>
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>>1707949
Because large metro areas in Japan are located on plains and Kanto plain is the biggest one.
>>
>>1707991
And how does that make them full?
>>
>>1707932
Only rich people or really poor people live in apartments in Japan. The former in luxury towers and the latter in quasi-commieblocks (they look better). Regular homeowners in Japan live in single family homes that tend to be smaller the more you get closer to the city centers but it really depends on lot sizes.

Then there's single room apartments for student or young workers that are literally a God's blessing because they're actually affordable and easy to find, some single adult poor people also live in those as well but it's not really normal, they're usually always drunk 50yo neets.
I remember saving quite a bit on my study year abroad because one of such apartments in central Yokohama would be about 100$ less expensive than a single room in a shared apartment in insular (central) Venice, Italy. They're even less expensive than Venice University dorm rooms. And wages in Yokohama are way higher than Italian wages.
>>
>>1707801
Yeah this is the kind of thing I fuck with. There's an island in australia I went to once that does the same thing, there are literally no cars on the island just golf carts
>>
>>1707993
because everything not green on that map is mountains and uninhabbitable mega city wise. Open up a map of Japan and I bet all of that green space in that map is just city nohgmwxw
>>
>>1708033
>Open up a map of Japan and I bet
oh. so, you haven't, like, thought about this, just looked at a picture and drawn conclusions. Lol.
>>
>>1707809
>Tokyo metro area has some "new cities" and the most known examples are Shibuya, Shinjuku and Ikebukuro.
no one considers those not part of tokyo though retard
they are entwined with the rest of the city
>>
>>1707938
not if you stabilize the population
>>
>>1707688
>Interestingly, most Europeans have a shop and a pub in walking distance.
True. I live in a small city in the Netherlands and there's plenty to do within walking distance, even for those who live well outside the city center. Even the most remote suburbs of this town have at least a place to do groceries, a pub or two, something like a barber, perhaps a gym, and small parks and playgrounds for recreation... and that's pretty typical because those things are basic necessities that any normal human being desires and it's just bad planning if people have to drive just to parttake in mundane activities. There are few places in the country where you absolutely need to own a car to get by, and all of those places are remote rural villages.

I don't think OP realizes just how unusually strict the zoning laws in some areas of the US and Canada are, and to what extent they contribute to urban sprawl. To create a neighborhood where you have to drive in order to do any of these essential things because it's literally illegal to build anything other than a single family home, is absolutely bonkers... but those neighborhoods exist by the thousands.
>>
It’s cool that in the US and Europe you can work the same job but choose between having a little apartment in the city or living in a house with a yard and commuting in. People in Asian cities don’t have that choice. If they want to work in the city, they’re stuck with the tiny apartment.
>>
>>1708047
Kawasaki, Musashi-kosugi/Maruko, Chofu, Fuchuu, Mitaka, Kichijoji, Tama, Koganei, Kokubunji, Tachikawa, Haijima, Fussa, Hachioji, Tokorozawa, Sagamihara, Machida, Ebina, Yamato, Atsugi, Hiratsuka, Chigasaki, Tsujido, Fujisawa, Enoshima, Kamakura, Zushi, Yokosuka, Kurihama, Ofuna, Kanazawa, Totsuka, Yokohama, Kawagoe, Omiya, Urawa, Kasukabe, Koshigaya, Matsudo, Kashiwa, Urayasu, Ichikawa, Funabashi, Makuhari, Chiba, Narita, Tsuchiura and Tsukuba though.
>>
Boggles the mind that NIMBYs want to stop people from building places like the OP
>>
>>1708115
i don't blame nimbys. i would never trust a developer to build anything good, lasting, or beautiful in my city. it's all mcburbs
>>
>>1707601
>you have exactly the same car dependent sprawl you can find in the US
A lot of people tell this in my eurocountry. I lived all my life in a city with everything close at any time of the day and recently went to my gf parent's house in a 600 inhabitant town
Pub & basic grocery stuff : 5 min. walk
Children school (till 10 y-o) : 5 min. walk
Egg & chicken at the farm : 3.5 km
all other stuff : 8km - 10km
middle school : 9.7km
high school : 11.5 km

An electric bike is more than enough.
The only issue is that roads are all 70 or 90km/h and there are no bike lane or anything that make people want to ride and eventually jobs aren't very close (20km min with no commute)
>>
>>1708115
Looks like shit. You’re living in a boring tiny ass town and you don’t even have a yard to anything like have a garden or pool or play sports, you’re still crammed in a minuscule apartment. What’s the point
>>
>>1707629
By Gulf Coast standards it's kinda nice, or at least the three square blocks that are the old walkable core are.
>>
>>1707943
Nothing wrong with megacities if they're functional. The image is promoting functional neighborhoods organized as mostly self-sufficient wholes, rather than a single superdense downtown surrounded by a sea of suburban groundcover.
>>
How do you deal with the existential dread knowing the city you live within won't stop being mediocre in your lifetime?
>>
>>1707944
>Maybe building more homes is inducing demand and making the prices even higher?
There are only so many Koreans, and immigration isn't a huge input to their growth. Either new construction in high-demand areas isn't meeting demand, or transportation links to high-demand areas are insufficient and leading to concentrated development necessitating high-cost building methods.
>>
>>1707935
Greenbelts don't work. They just push out sprawl further and just become a giant homeless jungle, like in Seattle.
>>1708048
"Stabilize the population" is only possible if you have some sort of iron fist on how people run their lives. Not that it's always a bad thing--Western Europe and United States can't even get a grip on immigration.
>>
>>1708062
Have you ever been to even a single Asian city? Tokyo has a wider variety of housing types to choose from than American cities due to more permissive zoning. You can even car-commute to a big country house if your employer sees fit to provide you a parking spot at the office.
>>
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There needs to be more express highway lanes, which are unfortunately rare without being tolled. The reality is that most of the highway congestion is from slowing down around exits and entrances, so an express highway would actually get where you would want to go.
>>
>>1708145
User fees would solve a lot of problems with highways in general.
>>
>>1708145
Highways should be tolled to have less drivers from surrounding suburbs driving into the main city hub because they've built only detached houses repeatedly and neighborhoods with terrible walkability.
>>
>>1707949
Open Google maps and see for yourself. All flatlands are utilized. The rest 3/4 of Japan is forest covered mountains.
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>>1708173
>All flatlands are utilized
Hmm. Somehow, I don't think that's the case. I don't think you're getting accurate information, if you are basing this hypothesis on a glance at Google Earth.
>>
>>1708143
what absolute retardation is this
do you think birth rates in developed countries are above replacement rate?
>>
>>1708179
your turn
>>
>>1708179
You thinking is not required in this case
You just need to take a look at things yourself.
>>
>>1708145
>The reality is that most of the highway congestion is from slowing down around exits and entrances
lmao, not in america. most slowdowns are caused by reckless and constant lane changing. here in Charlotte there are huge stretches of 485 and 77 that get gridlocked at random parts of the day with no exits around.
>>
>>1708227
Well, I can certainly look at things, but that does not always mean I am able to offer informed judgement on the things I am looking at. And, although I do not know much about you, I doubt that you are qualified to judge if a place is 'full', either.
>>
>>1708230
>I am trained to not believe my one eyes but believe what teachers or experts say
Do zoomers really?
>>
Ah. 'Alternative facts', then.
>>
>>1708228
Well, in NC, a lot of the lane changing is down to dickheads who drive at or under the limit in the left lane.
Another dumb NC thing is building cheap-shit highway ramp intersections which end at a traffic light, instead of cloverleafs. Always fun to make everything a wait at a light so traffic backs up onto the highway.
I hate toll roads, but thank god 540 is FINALLY being completed. It'll make S. Wake go through the roof and I can cash the fuck out. Thanks, Easley, for delaying it 20 fucking years.
>>
>>1708246
>Another dumb NC thing is building cheap-shit highway ramp intersections which end at a traffic light, instead of cloverleafs.
or the reverse with entrance ramps that are at most 100-200 feet long so you better fucking merge or else. I think there is an entrance ramp of 277 to 77 north in downtown Charlotte where the ramp literally dead ends into the barricade. Good luck faggot.
>>
>>1708246
Conventional cloverleaafs are obsolete and modern ones require collector-distributors that increase the cost substantially which is why no one builds them anymore
>>
basically right
communist zoning laws are bad
what dumb fucking retard is keeping these laws in place seriously they're in every single country
>>
>>1708293
>seriously they're in every single country
Doesn't sound very communist
>>
>>1707601
That's only partly true. Yeah there are sprawlburbs, but cities and small towns still have walkable downtowns, transit-oriented medium density burbs, or small satellite villages/hamlets that are centered around a train station and allow convenient movement with public transit. Plus transit is usually quite decent, with good or at least acceptable frequency, and without being surrounded by junkies and feral nogs on the train/bus (exceptions apply).

tl;dr the superiority of euro planning is that you actually have a choice.
>>
>>1708246
As long as you have a long enough ramp with time to get over to the correct lanes, ramps that go to traffic lights are fine. Cloverleafs are bad because you have to merge into a lane that people are already trying to merge out of, slam on the brakes to take a fairly sharp curve, then change lanes out (which people are also trying to get into) to go on your way. The only time I see cloverleafs is places with antiquated infrastructure like Louisiana or rural areas where there isn't enough traffic to make a difference. Cloverleafs aren't very pedestrian friendly at all (no space for sidewalks or crosswalks) but that doesn't matter, because half of /n/ thinks that if it doesn't significantly inconvenience vehicular traffic, it's not an improvement.
>>
>>1708293
why would you need zoning laws if the state initiates all construction?
>>
>>1708246
Wait where is 540 gonna reach to? Farthest I've gone on it is the close side of Apex. I'm a Carychad myself.
My buddy bought some land in Pittsboro a few years ago and I'm regretting not joining him. Prices are going through the roof now.
>>
>>1708140
Move somewhere that's already what you want or just wallow in the mediocrity and go with the masses.
>>
>>1708330
Also pic related is a superior way to interchange between highways and smaller roads.
>entrance/exit ramps are far away from the road, meaning that there's less braking involved before the stoplight
>u-turn lane provides access to the frontage road, and prevents pedestrians from being right next to the edge of the bridge
>being positioned above the highway eliminates need for artificial lighting and reduces chance for hobo encampment to build underneath
>>
>>1707642
there are 2 huge neighborhoods like this in mira mesa, california and it is nightmarish
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>>1708828
why are these nightmarish
>>
I live on the edge of a 30k town in the Netherlands and I’m within walking distance of four supermarkets, at least five restaurants and many more bars, a doctor and a hospital. My dentist is on the other side of town so I generally bike there in ten to fifteen minutes. If I want to go to a proper city I can bike there as well, same for going to the woods or the countryside.

Can’t remember the last time I needed something engine powered to get where I need desu, not even public transport.
>>
>>1708855
brown people live there. ooga booga! (screams in White)
>>
>>1708825
>being positioned above the highway eliminates need for artificial lighting and reduces chance for hobo encampment to build underneath
This is not the intended reason. Minor road over the major road results in a smaller bridge (cost); and allow entering vehicles to speed up on a down ramp, and exiting traffic to slow down on a up ramp (operation). Better visibility for safety when merging with oncoming main line, and diverging to any queues on the off-slip.
Frontage roadway is the simply answer to access management and land acquisition. Roundabouts handle complex multi-way service interchange better, and on itself already provides a safe u-turn opportunity without weaving.
>>
>>1708855
i do food delivery in these neighborhoods sometimes. there is always traffic, every block has a 4 way stop sign (and the blocks are small), and theres speed bumps everywhere. a 4 mile trip takes 15-20 minutes





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