why is tokyo's planning so good?why didn't american cities, particularly new ones on the west coast, take cues from tokyo?
>>1650674houses too small, now THIS is more like it
Most people aren't weebs OP
>>1650674>why didn't american cities, particularly new ones on the west coast, take cues from tokyo?They do, and they are called "projects". See how those turned out?
>>1650699That's a demographic problem rather than urban planning
>>1650700If your plan intentionally ignores relevant information that would make it unworkable then it isn't a very good plan.
>>1650674that looks like a wealthy area, like shimokita or yokohama. most of tokyo is miserable dehumanizing hive apartments and general urban sprawl
>>1650674>no footpathsdo they really?
>>1650882Yes, anon. It's a mixed-use pathway. You're meant to walk using the whole road, or drive *really* slowly until you get to a "real" road.
>>1650674>why is tokyo's planning so good?Because it regularly gets destroyed
>>1650674>new ones on the west coast,Almost all American cities were laid out within +/-100 years of 1850.Most people in West Coast cities were also from the Eastern US, not Japan.>>1650674Japan didn't look like this in 1850. It was a bunch of one-story fucc sheds crammed together. They didn't have horses so no carriages, meaning the pathways were only wide enough to walk on.
>>1650940A lack of living space expresses implied poverty
>>1650729how is yokohama a wealthy area?
Because Tokyo didn’t plan everything around cars.American cities did, and now they have the traffic problems you’ll find in LA
>>1650940>They didn't have horsesYes they did
>>1650699>>1650700>>1650706The projects are isolated commieblockesq "towers in the park" not at all the same as the OP.
>>1650674Tokyo was completely rebuilt after 1945.
I just want zoning like this in my local areaAnd removal of any laws or codes that stop traditional architecture with traditional materials from being made
>>1650957lots of nice single family dwellings, open spaces, parks, and other luxuries.
Theres a lot of factors like zoning codes, but in a very generalized way, its car centric urbanization. Japan has plenty of pedestrian roads with enough density to support pocket businesses and walkability.
>>1650980Go watch some old videos of Tokyo. There are no horses.
Small, pedestrian oriented streets and mid-rise housing
Japan gives less of a fuck about what goes next to what. Farmers, car factories, houses, schools, shops, and offices can all be with in walking distance.
>>1650729Yes, same for Osaka, however this kind of urban planning is very well spread in the suburbs of every city, and is also allied to very cheap lodgings, because it's Japan, and they like to do the same shit over and over everywhereIt is however incompatible with the center of big cities, which do ressemble more US cities in planning. With more small streets, convenience, cleanliness, and safety.
>>1650882Really wasn't an issue when I was there, people drive slowly in these parts and you never feel like you're gonna get runoverPretty comfy even after a while
>>1650674Wrong question.The right one is "why urban and transport planning outside East Asia is so bad?"And murricans are ignorant fucks, brainwashed by "murrica numbah wan" bullshit.
>>1650674it got bombed into oblivion and instead of abandoning trains like everyone else did, they doubled down in the reconstruction maybe we should carpet bomb LA with napalm or preferably nukes?
>>1650980Not in the context of urban planning, they didn’t, since riding horses was reserved for muh warrior caste and all horse powered transportation dates to the meiji era when they just copied foreigners
>>1652988Private japanese railway companies used land value capture long before WW2 bombings.
>>1652988>maybe we should carpet bomb LA with napalm or preferably nukes?This, but unironic.
>>1650729>. most of tokyo is miserable dehumanizing hive apartments and general urban sprawlMost of the Tokyo is suburban sprawl. Seriously check google maps.Japan is America only everything is hilariously small.
>>1653676>Most of the Tokyo is suburban sprawl>Japan is America only everything is hilariously small.Gigacope of amerilard.Even the most suburban parts of Kanto region are much more urban than murrican downtowns.I don't even talk about areas near train stations.
>>1653679I dont know how people can write such bollocks in current year. You can fact check with your own eyes. Streets of detached single family homes, this is not a city. This is a village.And everything is fucking tiny and cramped. Hope you are not claustrophobic.
>>1653649>implying I was being ironic
>>1653706Why do you lie, talking piece of human lard?Why you didn't mention that this "village" is 1-2km away from picrelated?
>>1653711So commercial downtown vs residential suburbia.
>>1653716> I ignore the fact that anyone can walk from "suburbia" to "downtown" in less than 20 minutes.> I ignore the fact that there are many rapid transit stations in 10-15 minute walk> I ignore the fact that between "downtown" and "suburbia" there are many mid-rises.Being american means being retarded.
>>1653720Yeah japan is tiny i got it. It doesn't make their residential housing less of suburbia.This is how real fucking city looks like. Got it?
>>1653721> vertical suburbia> citygigacringe x gigacope
>>1653724>peasants are seething
Is Tokyo actually well planned though, or does it merely still function because the Japanese are spineless and willing to make shit tons of individual sacrifices to keep the machine oiled, like shoving themselves into sardine can subways and living in cardboard closets?
>>1653784Cringe.At least you could post commieblocks from Singapore or South Korea, they aren't bad, but instead you posted subhuman hives from a cold racemixed shithole known as russia.
>>1650674Is Tokyo even planned i always assumed it grew organically like European cities?Roads with no sidewalks in inner cities like that would never work where i am because bad drivers
>>1654095What do you think looking at this? >>1653677It was chaotically build with no planing.
>>1654095There was no planning, but city government had no intention to demolish "slums" and instead provided them with utilities.Also, there are some planned suburbs with commieblocks, like Tama New Town.
>>1653677Is there seriously only 30 or so tall buildings in the central city (that stand out) in one of the most populated cities on earth?
>>1654144Check for yourself.Tokyo is flat like best girls.And mostly build up by 2 stories single family detached houses.
>>1653677If you can walk everywhere and take trains, its not suburban sprawl. Don't be a nonce, suburban sprawl is when theres zero mixed use and you NEED a car to do anything. You dont need towers for walkability
>>1653721>>1653784Zero mixed use or pedestrian activity. This is just more soulless suburbia, but with no back yard
>>1654250>Zero mixed usetheirs shops at the bottom of the block on the left
>>1654250>Zero mixed use or pedestrian activity.All these buildings ground floors are commercial use.As for pedestrian activity it looks likes something like thathttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxKr_5osSzo
>>1654317> dirt> noise> 2 lanes of parking> lots of alcohol shops
>>1650678What's the problem from walking 1 hour to get your weekly shopping?
>>1654151Fuck I'm sure I'd love tokyo. The perfect city for aun autist /walker/ like me.
>>1650674Tokyo's urban planning is abysmal, I hate it here and want outI miss European cities with their well spaced tenements and green spaces
>>1650961This. The place that based everything around walking/horseback like Europe/Japan is Boston. Boston is by far the most Japanese/European city (planning wise) you will find in the USA.
what is the point of shitty 2 story houses with no backyard on a 5x10m plot of landthat seems like urban sprawl for ants>>1651118heavy industry should be separated by a zone where construction is forbidden, preferably a forest
>>1656662> your own house in urban area not far from train stationCreates a short circuit in amerilard's brain.
>>1650882Yeah and they're two way streets too. Japanese are fucking SHIT drivers for the most part but I have to respect how they can navigate two way narrow streets like that. I fucking SHIT myself when I end up on narrow streets like that.
>>1650674In the mid-20th century gas was dirt cheap and cars were not much more. The ideology of America was Los Angeles as a model city. A confederation of suburbs linked by wide freeways, surrounded by unperturbed nature, each family their own plot of land. They saw it as better for human psychology (they also thought strapping women with PMS to gurneys and waterboarding them with LSD for two weeks would cure her of her monthly irritability, so they weren’t too bright)
>>1658593It would be ok if suburban cancer didn't spread outside US, but...
>>1650709A literal blank slate to work with lol
>>1654244This. It's very easy to get around Japanese cities with walking and public transport alone.
>>1661423Still doesn’t mean it isn’t sprawly. And dense sprawl is far more soul-crushing than low-rise sprawl, just look at Mexico City. All the density in the world but there’s still massive sprawl. The only difference is you can’t have a house 10 miles away from the city center, just another tiny apartment.
>>1661445> amerimutt copes again
>>1661445Sounds like 'sprawl' is just a buzzword to demonize something a person or group of people finds personally distasteful
>>1650674Very few U.S. cities even have planning departments or committees. The best you can hope for is zoning committees. Some don't even have that. Wanna know why the belt loop system is so popular? Because older cities in the states made them, and then new cities literally just copied them because they didn't know what else to do.
>>1650674American cities are planned around milking car people for as much money as possible through taxes and other car expenses.
>>1650708So everyone are so fascinated by the smoke downtown that no one notices the house that just had an entire exterior wall blown clean off.
>>1661550>Very few U.S. cities even have planning departments or committees.I disagree, most do (and a lot of cities/counties are under the juridiction of an area planning commission). Ultimately planners don't have any power, any idea or scheme has to be executed by politicians in some manner
>>1651112Old enough for you?
>>1656669what are you even talking about? because this has nothing to do with what I wrote
>>1650678man 3 miles of flat road calls for a beater bike with front and rear milk crates to do your shopping.
>>1661732Individually... maybe. But if you have a job and a family, going to the grocery store every day or two is just a time consuming chore.
the best feature of japanese district is their multifunctionality and walkabilityso it's no wonder americans are amazed but that doesn't make it amazing
>>1652988>maybe we should carpet bomb LA with napalm or preferably nukes?youre onto something there anon, digits confirm
>>1652988>maybe we should carpet bomb LA with napalm or preferably nukes?The global IQ would increase exponentially so yes.
>>1654408I thought it was really dense US cities like some parts of NYC and SF (disregarding their other issues and focusing only on layout/urban planning). I've never been to Boston though.
>this is what weebs consider great planning
>>1663161i live in nyc and i wouldn't say "urban planning" is something that's done well here. it only works because things are relatively close and the transit kind of works. it gets comfier if you actually enjoy walking or riding a bike.
>>1663351what do you consider great planning?
>>1663351jumbled clusterfucks are based that neighborhood has a fuckload of personality
>>1663351that's not even japan. is that the joke?
>>1663364what do you mean
>>1663351Yes, it's great.Cope seethe dilate.
>>1650674Because japs dont have comically bad zoning laws
>>1650674the average jap couldnt afford a small car until like the 80s. they had a huge percentage of the population commuting by foot/bike/public transport well into the modern age. i think in america it was obvious that the automobile was king by the 30s. most of the country has been built since then, and its optimized for cars and not anything else
>>1654144yeah. japan is extremely earthquake prone so skyskrapers are extremely costly to build. that's why it's not nearly what some people make it out to be. it has intense sprawl of shorter buildings. if you look you'll notice most japanese apartment buildings arent even half the size of soviet commblock apartments, the soviets didnt have earthquakes to worry about
>>1663699That plus there's a superstition-slash-consumerist trend against living in a house that another family has previously lived in. Many modern Japanese houses have piss-poor build quality, are drafty and shaky, and are only designed to last 20 years, after which you tear it down and build a new house.
>>1663602honestly what is the problem with this? It's cool as fuck.
>>1663796he has brain rot from living in a shitty suburban mcmansion and having to spend thousands of dollars maintaining the lawn while bleeding his city dry of funds.
>that house? it will be gazillion yen
>>1664555Or 3-5 times cheaper than sharturban shed.
>>1650697It's not though is it
>>1664713Why do you think Transportation is under Japanese Culture on the front page?
>>1664533>having to spend thousands of dollars maintaining the lawnExaggeration >while bleeding his city dry of funds.Untrue
>>1664742Sprawled out car centric areas have massive wasteful land because lots that are less dense and typically have majority parking lot as their space, are much less of an income maker. Single family homes are not very efficient at maintaining either, on top of that. The spread out infrastructure such as electric poles and water systems are much more vast, easier to have fall to ruin, and in general cost more to maintain or even worse, completely replace. It also makes providing plumbing, sewage and electricity is far more costly. And look at America if you want to see how much of a waste of money lawn care is. I work at a garden center and it is insane how much money people pay for 30 bags of mulch.
>>1664755>Sprawled out car centric areas have massive wasteful landThat's your opinion>Single family homes are not very efficient at maintaining either, on top of that.Every structure on Earth needs maintenance, even muh missing middle and high rise apartments.>The spread out infrastructure such as electric poles and water systems are much more vast, easier to have fall to ruin, and in general cost more to maintain or even worse, completely replace.This is cope. Putting in power lines and water pipes over/through open land is always going to be cheaper than burying it in an urban area. Maintaining the same infrastructure in a rural area is also easier and cheaper than working on buried utilities under city streets.>It also makes providing plumbing, sewage and electricity is far more costly.You have said this over and over and it's just not true. Feel free to post that cherry-picked jpg again though, I know you want to.>And look at America if you want to see how much of a waste of money lawn care is.>I work at a garden center and it is insane how much money people pay for 30 bags of mulch.Stop projecting your fear of failure onto others. If they want to pay for mulch, that is not your problem. You just want to control other people who live in a manner that you personally dislike. Luckily you will NEVER have any power.
>>1664806>Putting in power lines and water pipes over/through open land is always going to be cheaper than burying it in an urban areaRetard doesn't know anything about operational expenditures.>Maintaining the same infrastructure in a rural area is also easier and cheaper than working on buried utilities under city streets.Retard doesn't know that plumbing and sewage pipes are buried in suburbs too and electric poles can be easily installed in cities.>You have said this over and over and it's just not true.Retard didn't even bother to prove his claim.
>>1663602What's the issue?Small street, no major traffic through it so it's calm and you could park your bike thereComfy af if you ask me
>>1661647They didn't use them to travel in cities though, it's strictly for military useNobles were carried in palanquins
>>1664816>Retard>Retard>RetardSimply not an argument
>>1666700now ignore the word "retard" and re-read the post
>>1651019This is the correct answer. single use zoning is the bane of thriving cities. The correct way to do city planning is to stop doing fucking city planning.
>>1667220this is what happens when you have no city planning. stop pretending that "letting the market decide" is a good thing. no need to go to the other extreme.
>>1667302what am I looking at?
>>1667347this is communist city planning.
>>1667355what the fuck are you talking about. you're clueless.
>>1667360shoo now, Stalin.
>>1667364If you can't see the difference between this >>1667360 commie planning and this >>1667347 post-comie lack of planning then you're a blind idiot. Public opinion was against strict planning after the fall of communism and this resulted in spatial chaos where you don't even have streets planned out and gated communities.
>>1667370there is no appreciable difference.
>>1667377>there is no difference between centrally planning a big housing district and each landover building whatever they please on their strip of farmland
>>1667388it's their land.there is no appreciable difference because it's still mostly commie planning.
>>1667396you're not making any sense.
>>1667370>There’s no difference between city planning and Soviet Economic PlanningSo what you’re saying is before Stalin people just sorta started doing things hoping they had a finish?
>>1667409no one implied that anywhere
>>1667347Why not just walk?
>>1667302Picrelated isn't Japan, therefore, your post is irrelevant.
>>1667457his >>1667220 post didn't mention japan eitherbut it was made by an incoherent person.>yeah let's have these kinds of zones>at the same time stop doing city planning
>>1667477What I meant is that in japan, zoning laws are never just for a single thing, and instead are essentially just a "maximum nuisance allowance," as it were, instead of the city planners having to micromanage exactly what gets put where. for example, you can't build high rise commercial buildings in an area zoned for low density residential, however there's absolutely nothing stopping you from doing the opposite. Additionally, there's far fewer restrictions when it comes to what kinds of housing you can build in various areas, for example in America you have huge swathes of land dedicated purely to detached single family housing, but in japan the same low density residential area can house single family, duplex, and even small apartment buildings.Personally I'd prefer that they be even more hands off but it's certainly still worlds better than the Euclidian housing schemes we get in America.https://urbankchoze.blogspot.com/2014/04/japanese-zoning.htmlthis link explains it better than I could, and I suggest that you read it.
>>1667524I'm not disagreeing. Just saying there is great deal of difference between what Japan does and actual lack of planning.
>>1650674unironically because it gets knocked down every 50 or so years
>why didn't sparsely populated country with cheap land take urban development cues from the super dense island nation where 90% of the population is confined to the few flat valleys available who knows bro
>>1650729Unironically looks like New York City
>>1653716This architecture reminds me of Sao Paulo, except it's clean and well kept, but still kinda bland
>>1661647Edo period Japan still had its own laws and regulations. It actually wouldn't be outside the realm of possibility that horses were simply banned from parts of cities.Note that Rickshaws are human powered, not horse driven
>>1668155You were doing good with comfy streetcar suburbs, then you suddenly decided to let some Jewish speculators decide how you live.