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Left: SoulRight: Soulless
Left: SoulessRight: Also Souless
>>1633535>OLD GOOD NEW BAD/n/ is becoming /toy/ I stg...
>>1633539The HST is just iconic. The 80Xes just look like generic econobox trains
>>1633535Left: slow as fuck, stupid fucking doors, noisy and smellyRight: can actually accelerate, don't need to open a window to get out the train, can't tell if its on diesel or electric from inside, doesn't give me an asthma attackhave you ever been on a train for reasons other than autism
>>1633535Can you even tell the difference? What's really soulless is the corporatized color schemes
>>1633538Here's the soul equivalent of those.
>>1633541didnt people say that when they were introduced and about the Deltics were retired, and when the Deltics were introduced & the LNER Pacifics were retired, and about the LNER Pacifics when...
>>1633593The difference is the deltics, Pacifics and HSTs were actually good, not just in a don't-make-em-like-they-used-to way, and 80Xs are literal plastic gobocap shit. I'd genuinely rather ride a 142, at least it would be interesting.also fuck off OP with your shitty cookie cutter thread
>>1633538>>1633553based
>>1633542The IET has benefits over the HST, but ride comfort should be top priority for a train and the IET fails on this front.
>>1633744That's not really a failure of IETs as trains though, it's the god awful seats that keep being put on the things.
>>1633553>>1633538All Amtrak are soulless and look like garbage trucks
>>1633749Doesn't it make sense to consider a "train" as the entire package though? Most peoples' impression of a train journey typically isn't the efficiency of the generator.
>>1633754I can see what you're saying but don't agree, not to mention the fact the anon you were replying to only listed stuff that is inherent to the trains themselves, not whatever company the manufacturer/toc decided to buy seating off.Take the 158s as an example, when EMT upgraded theirs to IC3000s did that suddenly make 158s better trains? What about Northern's grubby old ones, are they worse trains? They're the same 158s.If you're going to go down the >most peopleroute then there isn't even much point having this conversation, 99% of people don't notice or care, it's a train, it takes them from A to B.
>>1633757Arguing about what is inherent to a train seems moot since you subjectively decide the cut-off point. Sure, Hitachi had to make the seats to new UK regulations , but it's the end result that matters.Online reviews show that people don't like the seats, particularly for long journeys. There are regular commuters that report switching to driving because of this.
>>1633762>Hitachi had to make the seats to new UK regulationsHitachi had absolutely fuck all to do with the seats, Fainsa made them. That's literally my whole point, it is possible to think that the IETs are good trains but have shitty seats in them.
>>1633765Okay, I was wrong about who made the seats, but my point still stands. People tend to have general impressions of things and have a hierarchy of standards.
>>1633773>People tend to have general impressions of things and have a hierarchy of standards.Entirely subjective, of course. Say you have a house, a great big modern house with all the mod cons but you ran out of money and had to go to IKEA for the furniture. Does that mean your whole house is bad? Of course not.Also, you still haven't answered what I said in >>1633757, did installing better seats suddenly make 158s better trains? To be honest it just seems like you don't know what you're on about, how can you be arguing this much when you thought train manufacturers made seats? It's not BR any more.
>>1633778I get your argument, but I think the reason people make this house furniture/train seat distinction is because they are more in control of their furniture so there's more of a categorical separation; they can eventually replace their own furniture, they can't replace seats on trains. The fact that train seats are bolted to the train body and furniture is less static further widens this categorical separation for people I think.>did installing better seats suddenly make 158s better trains?Yes. People seem to prioritise comfort when it comes to trains.
>>1633788Train seats can be and are replaced.>Yes.So the Northern trains with the old seats also became better trains? How'd you work that one out?
>>1633788>>1633792I should clarify just so I don't sound like a sarky twat:>Take the 158s as an example, when EMT upgraded theirs to IC3000s did that suddenly make 158s better trains?>Yes.>What about Northern's grubby old ones, are they worse trains? They're the same 158s.The obvious answer then is no, but by saying that you'd have to admit that seating has no bearing on whether a train itself is fundamentally good or not and it's possible to have a good train with shitty seating, or at the very least a good train that is held back by shitty seating.
>>1633593yesespecially when the deltics were introduced
>>1633792>Train seats can be and are replaced.Not by the rider. >So the Northern trains with the old seats also became better trains? How'd you work that one out?Did they originally have worse seats? If so, yes.I don't think there's anything wrong with your logic. I just think that your type of thinking will not get us better seats on trains.
>>1633796I don't think you've understood what I was saying>emt 158 seats upgraded>nt 158 seats still old shit>if seats determine if train is good or not have 158s suddenly become better trains>I just think that your type of thinking will not get us better seats on trains.I honestly don't even know what your point is with this one. We've both agreed the seats are shit.
>>1633797Oh, right sorry. I get what you mean now.I don't think most people categorise trains by class, they'd probably think "I hope my next train is one with the new/good seating". I say that the IETs fail in regards to comfort because they all have the same seating as far as I'm aware.>We've both agreed the seats are shit.Yes, but I think encouraging an attitude of "trains with bad seats are bad trains" instead of "these trains are good, but the seating is bad" is a better protest.
>>1633801>they'd probably think "I hope my next train is one with the new/good seating"No one apart from autists care about the class and the vast majority of people wouldn't even think that, but let's digress, I can't be arsed arguing semantics over some analogy from 2 hours ago.>Yes, but I think encouraging an attitude of "trains with bad seats are bad trains" instead of "these trains are good, but the seating is bad" is a better protest.Sorry but this is an incredibly daft take. Protesting in general is pointless and will get you nowhere but hypothetically you can speak to the guy in charge, you don't think>yeah nice train you got bro can you put some better seats in though and it'll be perfect thankswould go down a lot better than>your trains are absolute shit dude
>>1633794>>1633796>>1633797if you're talking about the original low backed 158 seats that you can see over the top of (like the original HST and MK2 seats), those are far better than newer "airline" seats that force you to bend your back forward and the seat in front is right up in your face so you can't see anything. for this alone I'd prefer northern's "grubby old 158s"
>>1633810
>>1633810the new GWR colours make them look better though
>>1633810>>1633811What are those plastic tumors?
>>1633811
>>1633810Whether the seat is good or not is irrelevant, I was just trying to illustrate a point.As an aside though I was commuting on them at the time of the refurbished, obviously everything is subjective but I'd take a Grammer any day of the week.
>>1633814>>1633812>>1633811>>1633810EXPLAIN THE TUMORS STICKING OUT OF THE SEATS
>>1633815my point was I'd rather have the "shitty" original seats, so I don't think it's irrelevant.
>>1633813>>1633817They're to hold on to while walking along the train. also, calm down.
>>1633813>>1633817For holding on to while walking. You occasionally also see people holding on to them if it's a shitty packed commuter line.>>1633818It is completely irrelevant, I could have said the new seats were shit and the old ones good instead and the point I was making to the other anon would still hold.
>>1633806Well, people are reportedly taking the car over the IET after the HSTs were taken off the GWML, which is the more effective form of protest, which leads me to my original point that people place seat comfort over any other aspect of the trains they take.I'd argue saying >yeah nice train you got bro can you put some better seats in though and it'll be perfect thanks would be less effective than >your trains are absolute shit dude since you still sound content in the first sentence, but I wouldn't recommend belittling anyone or using profanity, like in the second sentence.
>>1633535Out of the globohomo crap that comes out these days I think the Azumas are actually pretty decentWell at least they’re better than the shit Thameslink are running these days
>>1633823you seem to be running out of straws to clutch at
>>1633834no u
>>1633627again, Deltics and A4's. Deltics were considered extremely soulless compared to what they replaced
>>1633810>>1633815They're actually one of the best train seats I've ever sat in, They're expansive, I almost fell asleep in one. The only time I've experienced the old ones were on Northern, so not the best but they were still pretty comfy.
>>1634146Yeah they may be soulless (I actually like how some call them "Hoovers") but they aren't shit. Same goes for HSTs, I don't actually think they have much character, they're just BR shit really, but they're fit for purpose. 80Xs are actually shit. Now, the one BR loco that does have soul is the 59/66. And that's actually American.
>>1634183they do the job, is that not enough?
>>1635073They don't do the job though, that was my point.
>>1633535Have you ever tried appreciating both, instead of being a wannabe boomer?
>>1633627>gobocap shitwhat does that even mean?
>Muh Valenta HSTs really struggle with acceleration past 80mph.
>>1635347it means it was designed by someone who doesnt live in the UK. Never mind that the A4's were visually based on Bugatti's and their predecessors were downsized PRR K4's
>>1635347I assume they're trying to say globocap - as in global capitalist. Either way retarded.
>>1635734>it means it was designed by someone who doesnt live in the UKLmao that's just how it goes in the rail industry nowadays. While privatization has accelerated our use of foreign imports more than any other European country we seem to be depending less on domestic manufacturing and that of corporate giants.
>>1635892>and that of corporate giantsand more on that of corporate giants*
>>1635347same as glob*h*mo but it won't put you on a list.yet.
>>1633542>don't need to open a window to get out the trainDo you even know what soul is? It's quirks like that which gave it character. Personally when I rode HSTs in and out of Paddo i'd always travel in the carriage partitions for the maximum train experience. The sound and smell of the brake pads as we slowed at Hayes & Harlington. Leaning out the window to watch the train enter the station, then to open the door or hearing the Valentas scream as they rolled out of stations. Main difference is HSTs were designed and built by hands, minds and hearts whereas the foreign imports were designed by an algorithm or programme or whatever, no human touch to give them character. Same with a lot of buildings. Just glass, steel and cladding dreamt up by some architecture software somewhere.
>>1633535czechfag heredesu both of em kinda look like shittake the czechtrainpilleuropoors: 1britbongs: 0
>>1636544They were designed by government committees
>>1636606It's the method of design i'm talking about. late 60's early 70's used now-antiquated techniques that didn't involve computers. When the designs were first drawn up, they were drawn by the hands of an artist, not some software. For me that's the difference in the soulful locos of the past and the soullest imported crap we have today. The human element. And when you think about it a little deeper, those designs come from people influenced and created by our culture and our way of being, there's a certain familiarity to them that makes them fundamentally British trains and as Britons i think we have a natural gravitation towards that.
>>1636623Its a box vs a box with a curved front
>>1636623>>1636629And the box on the left is just as utilitarian as the one on the right. The HST was designed to go 125mph for the lowest cost not any artistic purpose
>>1636623you realise its still common for designs to be first drawn up by hand
>>1636544>>1636623I love an HST about you sound pretentious as fuck.I think it's a national embarrassment that we invented the railways and now just import everything from abroad and have foreign companies running most things, but this doesn't change the fact the 80Xs are good trains.I would like to see a BREL revival but the fact is that at least for the current 30/40 year old train replacements it makes absolutely no sense to start from scratch.
>>1633535which one gets you to your destination first?
>>1636630Yes. and it still has more character than the IET despite that, if that doesn't tell you something, I don't know what will.70s BR garbage built to a price is somehow still objectively better than the shit being churned out today. Just think about that.
>>1636651either of them, since they're both limited to a speed lower than they're capable of.
>>1636629
>>1636634>but this doesn't change the fact the 80Xs are good trains.I completely agree with you. But this thread isn't about the practicality or capabilities of the trains, it's about the soul and character of the trains. A point you've completely missed.
>>1636572cute
>>1636634>I think it's a national embarrassment that we invented the railways and now just import everything from abroad and have foreign companies running most thingsYou'll overcome that stage. State owned rail companies import foreign technology anyway. And it's not as if foreign companies own our railways, they operate trains on certain franchises for a few years before potentially losing a bid to other companies, of which might be British owned, or also foreign owned. I too used to share your nationalistic outlook on it but now I no longer care, the same kind of thing is happening in Germany and the Netherlands among a number of other European countries, we just went full throttle with it. The railways themselves are owned and maintained by Network rail. The absolute height of foreign companies control is simply operating the trains and ordering rolling stock from various manufacturers, there's no bias either since foreign companies actively order trains from Litchurch Lane.
>>1636896>You'll overcome that stage.I highly doubt that, I share the same view for most things in this country.
>>1636893I can smell the toilets from here
>>1636905Well you'll overcome it for those things too. I did. The thing you need to understand is our government are about as capitalist as the US, so they have a real hard-on for privatization. France is practically socialist and Germany is 50/50, in fact we own certain rail franchises in Germany.
>>1636939It's something I've believed in for over a decade, I don't think I'll be suddenly changing my viewpoint because one a/n/on said they had changed their mind.>our government >we >privatizationExcuse me?
>>1636896What are you on about? Franchising has been suspended for months.
>>1636962Then you simply can't see the bigger picture. Dwelling about stuff "not being British" is an amateur sentiment to withhold, and one I held from the age of 15-18. As I've already said foreign ownership cuts both ways, while many countries are investing in ours, we're investing in said countries almost as much. Things that are British owned can easily become foreign owned and things that are foreign owned can easily become British owned, in addition foreign conglomerates that own stakes in firms here can easily be bought out by an even bigger foreign conglomerate. It's market globalism. >>1636994Where has it been suspended?
>>1636962>>1637016>>our government>>we>>privatization>Excuse me?I'm also not sure what you're getting at with this
>>1637016>Where has it been suspended?Everywhere you daft cunt.
Privatisation has been an abject failure and railways-for-profit never work out without government assistance in the end because you can't just close the railways when they stop making profit. i.e during a pandemic, so you might as well just have a nationalised railway because he saves half the farting around that our current privatised network does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlTq8DbRs4k
>>1637016Your argument boils down to>it's globalism can't help it lolwhich is an incredibly simplistic position to hold.>>1637017It's a bit hard to take you seriously when you claim to be from the UK and spell privatisation with a z. You don't see this anywhere in this country at all. Pretty sure you're just taking the piss at this point.
>>1637026>railways-for-profit never work outExcept when the government stays away. Private profits, private losses. No holding hands or legal meddling.The reason why JNR privatization was a no-brainer and worked so very well was because they always had the private sector for comparison.When Odakyu and other companies were making profits and charging cheaper fares at the same routes JNR was making losses and raking debt, there were no argument for keeping state control of the railways.>>1635734never mind either that the UK is the only one to buy Hitachi trains, and they're opening factories there instead of using Brexit as a excuse>>1636544>>1636623>>1636654>loving OBJECTS>having the credential to talk about soulpick one.
>>1637035>Except when the government stays away.Except the entire railway network would have gone bankrupt in the last year and half and we wouldn't have a functioning railway system at all if the govt didn't intervene.These things are more integral to society than just another business.
>>1637057>Except the entire railway network would have gone bankrupt in the last year and half and we wouldn't have a functioning railway system at all if the govt didn't intervene.>These things are more integral to society than just another business.Let me guess, you are one of those people who think investors will dump large and profitable companies just because their quarterly profits went down once or twice and then lose all your money when you realize people aren't stupid as you think...>GME to the moonSaid no rich person ever
>>1637023I mean it hasn't so if anyone's a daft cunt it's you
>>1637098https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-54232015https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/sep/21/uk-covid-19-rail-rescue-measures-dft-franchisinghttps://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/109436/uk-government-ends-rail-franchising/Want more? Daft cunt.
>>1637028>which is an incredibly simplistic position to hold.It's the way the world's moving mate, if objective facts are "simplistic positions to hold" then idk for you >It's a bit hard to take you seriously when you claim to be from the UK and spell privatisation with a z.You're seriously that petty? I misspell ONE letter subconsciously without it showing up as an error so I must be larping... fuck off >You don't see this anywhere in this country at allDon't see what in this country? Or did you mean to say you don't see this in any other country? If you meant the latter well yes you do
>>1637102Sooo, the private companies that most recently bidded for certain franchises are staying? It's late and I cba to read everything from those articles so explain what happens after their decade long contracts, does BR get a full revival? Like next to nobody probably also knows about this so pipe down calling me a daft cunt for not knowing myself
>>1637105Go to bed and read it tomorrow, daft cunt.
>>1633535Anyone know which station this is? Looks exactly like my local station, but then stations often look the same.
>>1637149It's in the filename you plonker.
>>1637078>you are one of those people who think investors will dump large and profitable companies just because their quarterly profits went downThere's something you need to learn about British railways, pal. They're not very profitable. They're extremely old and the profit margins are nowhere near the same as the large US freight companies, who make a lot more money than British passenger railways. What's more, there is no-one willing to compromise safety for the sake of profit, as is what happens in the US. We can't have anywhere near the number of derailments you lot have, it just isn't acceptable here, thus the cost and regulations to maintain the railways is higher.
>>1637114It's also really boring and time consuming, so save me the effort and elaborate. All I read from it is that franchising is on hold because of lockdown, and the current private companies are being compensated. explain what happens in the long run if you're such a know-it-all.
>>1636893damn GPS blocking windows ree
>>1637354>>1637105Not him but basically traditional franchising where the operator takes ticket receipts and pays the DfT for the franchise is dead.All future franchising will take the Overground/Govia Thameslink route where private businesses are paid a fixed fee to operate the railways but the government takes the ticket money and thus the profits or losses.
>>1637473>Not him butGO. BACK.
>>1637479I've been around 4chan since 2012 faggot
>>1637479stop trying so hard to fit in
>>1637473Thank you, desu I don't think he even actually read any of those articles himself>>1637479lurk more, addressing the fact that you are not the same anon that I was otherwise interacting with doesn't make you a newfag
Every railway in the uk was created by private companies and ran into the ground by BR
>>1637156i'm not comparing the UK to the US, but to Japan, a equally sized country.
>>1638683Based. Fuck BR.
>>1638722Didn't Japan do privatisation a little differently to us though? Do people there complain about it as much as they do here and reminisce about when "tickets were cheaper"?
>>1639042They also did nationalisation differently to us as well. Nationalised JR innovated true high-speed rail and the bullet train. Remarkable at whatever they do, those Japanese.
>>1639079>Nationalised JR innovated true high-speed rail and the bullet trainThe shinkansen lines operated at most 240 km/h (220 on the Tokaido) until privatization, while the TGV and the ICE inaugurated with 280 km/h in the 80's and 90's.The true innovations (the practical, not flashiest things) came with privatization, like pic related which solved the sound pollution issue JNR never could deal with.
>>1639285Dunno why you're bothering to shill so hard for privatisation when both have their merits and work under different circumstances. Japan is just your strawman and really the exception to pretty much everything rather than the rule. Increase in speeds relate to advancement in technology of the human race rather than privatised vs nationalised. The Japanese government trains were the fastest trains in the world in their day. Decades before anybody else. But yeah, Japanese railways now are good and they're privately owned, we get it.
>>1639310Is what you're saying that Japan gets the best out of privatisation and the UK gets the worst out of it?
>>1639531not that anon but yes
