Now that we have a railfan President...Do we think we’ll see public transit expansion funded by the Feds? I know things like the NHSL spur to King of Prussia is banking on a Biden Presidency.Do you think he’ll be good for excursions? Bennet Levin seemed to think that he would extend Federal Insurance used to cover Amtrak to excursions, and that he’d repeal Amtrak’s moratorium.
>>1571290>posing in front of Penn Central logoWtf I love Biden now!
>>1571290>the last picture of him before the mental decline is grainy and in black and whiteSeems right.
Is he a railfan or does he simply fear the cage that took the lives of his wife and daughter?
>>1571290He did absolutely nothing for Amtrak during the last time he was VP and the Democrats had power. $12 billion for Amtrak which just upgraded their trainsets, but not much for their infrastructure. Then a paltry sum for HSR, which all went to California when Gov. Scott of FL and Walker of WN refused government loans for HSR projects. The project in California is an absolute disaster, hated by both left and right for different reasons, and it won't even be true high-speed (Demetrius on ARC found out in his last stream that CaHSR will be using the same ROW as CalTrain, and be subjected to speed limits due to grade-level crossings, for 220 mph capable HSR.Passenger rail has done a fuckton better in the 4 years of Trump because of deregulation. Brightline is up and running and moving quickly to Orlando. Airlines lost their EAS gibs. TCR will be shoveling in the ground as soon as the bullshit lawsuits end. There are more streetcars in construction in America for the first time in 100 years. Amtrak was going to have its first breakeven year if it weren't for Coronachan when it was getting its act together.This fantasy that somehow any party cares about infrastructure in the US is complete horse shit. None of them care, they're more concerned about their own powers and starting foreign wars than actually building up this country. Especially that Democrats are somehow magic and will give us HSR across the US - where the fuck is it after Obama? Fuck Biden, he's not going to do shit and give it to Cum-ala Obama, and fuck Trump if he's going to be a little pussy after talking all that shit.
>>1571388>Brightline is up and running and moving quickly to OrlandoI hate stupid non-locals like you who talk about Brightline. Brightline isn't HSR. Brightline keeps delaying adding PTC. (ergo, other than for the government forgiving them again and again, their current practices aren't fully legal) And Brightline hasn't even been running the majority of 2020. Tri-Rail never stopped running, but Brightline stopped running because their already tiny ridership became smaller during the pandemic.
I have no doubt we’re going to see a lot more federal transit programs.
>>1571388This is the most delusional post I’ve ever seen.>There are more streetcars in construction in America for the first time in 100 years.That’s in spite of Trump, not because of him.The Trump administration deliberately withheld funds for rail projects because Republicans are owned by the fossil fuel lobby.https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/08/13/trump-administration-withholding-1-4-billion-in-transit-funds-authorized-by-congress/
>>1571388For around 6 of Obama's 8 years as President, Moscow Mitch did everything he could to roadblock anything put forward from the White House or the Democratic side of Congress. He was successful at this, and has been on TV literally boasting about it. I'm not surprised that no substantial funding or expansions for Amtrak got passed in that political climate, and unless Democrats get both houses again (unlikely) I doubt anything will change this in this presidency either.
>>1571290Senate is republican. Nothing will happen. Which is a shame because literally the only thing I want from democrats is the expansion of high speed rail and light rail.
>>1571478>implying both parties aren’t owned by the same people
The real redpill on High Speed Rail is that if it was anything other than a massive waste of money for little to no benefit, it would be dominated by private companies.
>>1571555That's truly a hard pill to swallow
>>1571555If we should get rid of public services that don't offer direct benefit we need to shut down the highway system right away. And the school system as well, while we're at it.
>>1571589I think the highway system and the school system bring a lot more value to the country than a slightly more convenient version of a regional flight would.
>>1571388>He did absolutely nothing for Amtrak during the last time he was VPHe voted with the Senate/House Democrats to preserve PRIIA funding for CAHSR, and that's good enough given the circumstances. Republicans are not going to be able to obstruct the government has they did during that era, so merely preserving everything for future use is good enough.>The project in California is an absolute disaster, hated by both left and right for different reasons, and it won't even be true high-speed (Demetrius on ARC found out in his last stream that CaHSR will be using the same ROW as CalTrain, and be subjected to speed limits due to grade-level crossings, for 220 mph capable HSR.CAHSR is true HSR, and must be per Prop 1A. Prop 1A specifically calls for a maximum trip time of 2 hours 40 minutes between downtown San Francisco and Anahiem. Because of this, the 125 mph speed limit imposed by Caltrain (and likely Metrolink as well) is not an issue because express trains will still hit 220 mph between Gilroy and Palmdale to meet Prop 1A requirements. Also, this problem can also be eliminated if Caltrain and Metrolink get enough money to remove all grade crossings and add security doors to platforms. The only remaining obstacles are the handful of 60 mph curves within San Bruno, San Mateo, Mountain View, south San Jose and Glendale but these are marginal.All of this is plausible due to a sustained effort to build it, one that Biden has supported and will continue to support.
>>1571593Tell the people who use Caltrain to avoid San Francisco's school lottery, and all the people who use Caltrain's College Park station. It's also better than a regional flight because there are no lines.
>>1571605But like, who is this for? 3 hours is too long for a commute. Are there really that many tourists in one bum infested city that really really wanna go see the other bum infested city, but don't want to take the 45 minute flight for some reason?
If he can do something about the Teddy Roosevelt era tunnels under the Hudson I’d be happy. They should have been replaced decades ago so that the old ones could be repaired to end the bottleneck into Manhattan. It’s been a political football forever, with the GOP recently blocking funds to spite New York Democrats. The NEC is the one line that isn’t “wouldn’t it be awesome if people rode trainz” and it’s on the verge of being choked off because of these crumbling tunnels, as well as a drawbridge that jams open. It’s a pathetic indictment of how we can’t maintain basic infrastructure, much less build anything new.
>>1571290He wasn't my first choice in the primary, but if we get extensive Amtrak and Subway/Metro improvements in his first term, I'll be ridin' with Biden.I've always appreciated Joe's dedication to rail in America. If he unironically makes the trains run on time, he's my new favorite President.
>>1571378What sane person wants to drive from Wilmington to DC anyway? You can skip all the traffic by taking the train and ride in comfort the whole way there.
>>1571477>>1571290What's an easy way Biden can actually make a substantial improvement to American public transit that he can do in the first hundred days? I imagine federal money isn't gonna be coming until Congress fights it out to provide a decent Corona bailout.
>>1571637Imprison every single black person in America.
>>1571637Just straight up kill every homeless person as well.
>>1571637pass an infrastructure stimulus bill with Congress, it's one of the few things the senate is willing to work with him on.
>>1571634>I've always appreciated Joe's dedication to rail in America.What in the fuck has he done for it
>>1571638>>1571639These>>1571661In theory yeah but you know it'll end up a watered down shitpile like all those 'shovel ready projects' during the Obama administration
>>1571661This.An infrastructure bill for railroad construction is the best way to pull us out of this recession.
>>1571666non-train brainlets please don't say anything if you're just going to be wrong.He helped forward this bill:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railroad_Rehabilitation_and_Improvement_FinancingWhich lead to Amtrak ordering new locos including all of the ACS-64's. Joe also lead the effort to replace all of the first gen acela's with:https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/dr-gridlock/wp/2016/08/26/biden-announces-upgrades-for-amtraks-northeast-corridor/Those upgrades also helped upgrade the NEC between Trenton and New Brunswick for 165mph operation too.
>>1571608It's for all 40,000,000 Californians. To build CAHSR each segment services a specific group, made plausible by blended service:>San Francisco - San Jose: commuters, especially ones that use Caltrain. Caltrain already pulled out Prop 1A/CAHSR bonds via AB1889 if you can recall for this purpose. CAHSR will piggyback on Caltrain here as Caltrain is doing all of the electrification work and fronted all of the lawsuits.>San Jose - Gilroy: commuters, who want hourly Caltrain service. Caltrain will piggyback on CAHSR here.>Gilroy-Merced: anyone who wants to travel to Yosemite while drinking>Merced to Bakersfield: people who live and work in Frenso, including the current wave of "remote workers">Bakersfield to Palmdale: people who want to work at the airplane plants on a Bakersfield budget>Palmdale to Los Angeles: Metrolink commuters>Los Angeles to Anahiem: Disneyland>but don't want to take the 45 minute flight for some reason?Flying out of the Bay Area sucks, so yes. Most people would prefer to use the shining new BART extension to go to the safe BART stations (Fremont and San Jose) instead of going to the unsafe BART station (Coliseum) where they'd transfer to an airport peoplemover then watch homeless people piss on each other at OAK. SFO is better but still grimy due to the SFPD being in charge of security and Mineta is adjacent the train tracks where people waiting in line can watch trains go by. There's also a much stronger tolerance of alcohol and prohibited items on Amtrak and rail, whereas if you have a bowie knife you're either paying $20 to check the bag or you're not flying.
>>1571637Financing CAHSR is one, with money pulled from the military's emergency budget. There's no way we are actually going to get involved in Iraq again, because there is zero public support for it and Congress would nuke it. CAHSR is already under construction, so the money can be added immediately and used within <2 years (the time it would take for Congress to allocate any sort of new money).
>>1571290>Do we think we’ll see public transit expansion funded by the Feds?Thing is Biden isn't really the one in power, I like the guy and I'm sure he'd like to fix AMTRAK and make America actually great again but Cuntala and the senate will ratfuck it.
>>1571701The regressive Republican wing don't have enough votes to stop a bill, and ultimately they will want to put Trump behind them in the new year. Romney will cement his control as the party's figurehead, and Utah has projects worth doing especially when they are building Caltrain's new electric trains. Things have changed since 2015.
>>1571695First one is a program not a bill, $3.5 billion is a drop in the bucket anyway. Second thing is just securing a loan for new trains. Lol what a joke
>>1571701>>1571724People still don't care about trains. Expect a bunch of social justice reforms, gun grabs, muh global warming, law enforcement overhauls, and the like. Infrastructure is a low priority, rail is even lower. We'll be ultra lucky to get legalized weed out of all of it. But we will get to bail out California's HSR disaster
>>1571398Brightline is more HSR than California will ever be. They already installed ATC/PTC. What's positive about it anywho?https://cflca.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/032520-Brightline-PTC-Update-.pdf>muh highER speed rail.It's the US, Americans have no clue what they're doing. Just like you yanks call Acela high speed.>>1571605>CAHSR is true HSR, and must be per Prop 1APic related.
>>1571731$100 billion and it's going to have fucking grade crossings??
>>1571729Even if we take your argument as legitimate the whole "muh global warming" demands Amtrak investment. This is as true for 1970 as it is for 2020 and was a reason why Nixon created Amtrak in the first place. Anyway, in the real world Biden's priorities is not Twitter and his policies are not written by gossip and checkout stand magazines. It's written by people who have to make all the numbers work, and the numbers work in Amtrak's favor.Likewise, Harris is against drug legalization and police reform (as in, reform that matters). Her idea for immigration reform is another half-amnesty and putting LRADs and "non-lethal" lasers on the border. Pelosi was for this as well but Trump shot it down, which probably contributed to his loss.
>>1571732Only north of Gilroy and south of Palmdale, where it won't matter to anyone but the adjacent bedroom communities that refused any attempt to build an alternative. As this reality comes down more communities will fold; Burlingame being the most recent with Menlo Park next. It's a stupid thing to be annoyed over given how most of the route will be free of grade crossings, especially when purists have much stronger case for the original I-5 route that was billed to voters but then CHSRA chose the current US-99 route because it makes more money. Blame Republicans requiring PRIIA funds to go to self-sustaining operations, which was a thing Trump tried to snub CHSRA with as well and failed because he's an idiot.
>>1571742>Even if we take your argument as legitimate the whole "muh global warming" demands Amtrak investment.Wrong, it'll be centered on subsidies to EV production and green energy>This is as true for 1970 Ancient history>and the numbers work in Amtrak's favor.Lol you are pozzed
>>1571745>the adjacent bedroom communities that refused any attempt to build an alternativeI think for $100 billion you should get zero grade crossings. What a half assed system jfc>It's a stupid thing to be annoyed over given how most of the route will be free of grade crossingsNo it's not> TrumpYou're absolutely obsessed with him. Your guy won and you still let him live in your mind rent free lol
>>1571747>Wrong, it'll be centered on subsidies to EV production and green energyso........Amtrak>>1571748> think for $100 billion you should get zero grade crossings. What a half assed system jfcThen you should have made that argument in 2009 when CHSRA decided to go through San Jose and not cut over through Fremont like most people expected. In that time Caltrain has been able to remove 5 grade crossings anyway (the largest being 25th Av) with more on the way over the next decade. With Biden, they'd finally have the money to remove most of them as most sit within downtown San Mateo.And again, all the people who agree with you are generally of the opinion that the biggest problem with CHSRA is the alignment and not the grade crossings because cagers can get fucked at both 125 and 225 mph.
>>1571752How much of Amtrak stock is electrified?
>>1571752>so........AmtrakNo, GM, Ford, Tesla, and energy producers>Then you should have made that argument in 2009That was also when the estimated cost was a third of what it is now>With Biden, they'd finally have the money to remove most of them as most sit within downtown San Mateo.Don't hold your breath>generally of the opinion that the biggest problem with CHSRA is the alignment Don't care
>>1571635Americans aren't known to be sane.
>>1571698Seems like the thing to do is just build regional rail for the north and south in that case, no reason I can see to connect them.
The southeast needs a high-speed rail network.Atlanta, Charlotte, Nashville, Birmingham, Raleigh/Durham. Then connect it up to DC through Winston-Salem.
>>1571815LA-SF is one of the busiest transport corridors in the country and has already been maxed out on capacity for years. Flights are usually full and airports don't have slots for more, and multiple hour delays are common on the main highway that connects both cities because it's so congested.
>>1571861>LA-SF > has already been maxed out on capacity for yearsIt would still be cheaper to add lanes to the interstate and add runways and gates at several airports than build CAHSR
>>1571758>No, GM, Ford, Tesla, and energy producersTesla lost it with Musk's covid shenanigans, GM lost it when they refused to do CAFE last year and Ford doesn't need them.>Don't careso why are you here and not on /pol/? The alignment concern is the only valid criticism of CHSRA especially with all the work and political effort in Altamont Pass (the original route) right now.
>>1571815That's more or less what CAHSR is, but with a third segment within the Central Valley and two connection points (tunnels) via Pacheco and Tehpachi passes. This was necessary to secure needed political support, and is why there will be commuter rail service between Sacramento and Stockton within the next two years.>>1571901No it wouldn't, and we don't need to explain why because you've made this argument here before.
Chicago will become the superhub.We are already the freight rail hub, why not for passenger?
>>1571901oh it's this dumb fucking nigger from the other thread who thinks expanding I-5 will ease congestion and fix all our problems, don't bother arguing with him.>>1571815tunneling in and out of the Bay Area and LA basin is already the hardest and most expensive part, it would be retarded to not link the two halves through a flat desert. Exclusive ROW and easy to grade separate.
>>1571950I’m not opposed to it. Atlanta could be a surprisingly big hub as well.
will we be seeing these bad boys anywhere else in america outside of caltrain? For that matter, are there any other ongoing electrification projects?
>>1571949>his was necessary to secure needed political supporti.e. sunk cost fallacy>No it wouldn'tYes it would.>we don't need to explain why because you've made this argument here beforeYou lose.>>1571989>oh it's this dumb fucking nigger from the other thread who thinks expanding I-5 will ease congestion and fix all our problems, don't bother arguing with him.Not an argument. You also lose
>>1572018I mean if you think expanding I-5 will increase traffic, you are literally fucking stupid.
>>1572008If Beacon Hill gets off their asses and starts putting wires up, there's a chance we'll see them in the Bay Area on the east coast too; Boston
>>1571901We don't even need to add runways, just get rid of the completely arbitrary and pointless restrictions on air travel from 20 years ago
>>1572008There's also a slim chance they'll be the basis for SEPTA's Silverliner VI
>>1572008For CA:- the San Joaquins, who will share CAHSR's track and effectively be California's NE Regional equivalent train, will electrify as soon as the legislature allows. Right now Sacramento doesn't want to put wires up until there is a continuous path from San Jose to Merced- Metrolink will have to electrify some operations in order to work with CAHSR between Palmdale and Anahiem- the Surfliner will pressure UP to allow it, which stands a chance of actually happening given how the Surfliner serves Ventura Co (home of President Reagan) and San Clemente (home of President Nixon) so they have pull within the Republican party, and vice versa this is how Republicans from the area would negotiate a transit tax- SMART, especially when they already own all the track. But this would require a new tax, and voters rejected it in 2018 (similar to how voters rejected a Caltrain tax in 1986). Regardless it's at least on the table.- the Capitol Corridor, if they can figure out UP. The proposed reconstruction of the Sacramento Northern route as a freight bypass and a downtown Oakland subway exist for this purpose, it's how UP would be coaxed into allowing some under-wire operations in their territory between Martinez and Emeryville. UP could also sell the former SP subdivision in the way they sold/are selling SP's Altamont route - ACE, depending on how things shake out with what is now Valley Rail, if VR goes well then they'll just drop in two more tracks and fuck over the freeway users- Coaster, which will have to electrify all of their operations for CAHSR part 2All of this is made plausible by Prop 1A and CAHSR itself. This is why it's such a massive deal because it touches upon every large city in the state and, except for SMART, every rail agency.Outside of CA Denver already has a partially electrified system that will expand, and Utah is where Stadler wants to sell electrification as it's where Caltrain's new electric units are being made.
>>1572075Sounds like an overcomplicated mess. But I’ll be honest it would be cool to see CAHSR in my lifetime (I’m 22)
Here’s something that not many people here are gonna like- CAHSR is going to cost 80 billion dollars (yes thats real I’m not joking) If we’re spending 80 billion dollars to move people from LA to SF, why are we using technology from the 19th century to do it? There has to be something better than a train by now, and if not, someone could probably come up with a better solution for 80 billion dollars.
>>1572075You will not see all of that happen in your lifetime>>1572082Keep in mind for $80 billion there will still be grade crossings, lol. $80+ billion and they can't afford and underpass
>>1572083It’s crazy that they’re even talking about this when the metro purple line extension in LA hasn’t even been finished yet. It’s a 9 mile extension of an existing line that is parallel to the expo line. It started construction 6 years ago, and is scheduled to be finished by 2027. It cost 9 billion dollars.
>>1572083>You will not see all of that happen in your lifetimeWithin 5 years California will have 125 mph trains between Merced and Bakersfield, and hourly service between Sacramento and San Jose. I never expected to see this, yet here we are. Within the next decade tunnels will connect San Jose to Fresno and Bakersfield to Palmdale.>>1572086It's the same with the Silicon Valley BART extension, which is +12 years now. In the same time period Caltrain will completely electrify and have hourly service to Gilroy as well, AND complementary upgrades to ACE in the east.
>>1572094>Within 5 years California will have 125 mph trainsI didn't say they wouldn't have any of it, I said you won't see all of that happen in your lifetime, and I wouldn't hold your breath if you expect huge government projects like them to be completed on schedule. Sometimes you get lucky though.
>>1572094Maaaaaan you are in for a big disappointment.
>>1572098>>1572099I'm no stranger to disappointment, Caltrain was supposed to fully electrify by 2003. Instead the money was spent on the SFO BART extension. Likewise, what's now being planned for the tri-valley was inconceivable fantasy until two years ago when it passed as a result of SB-1 negotiations. So already we're doing better than we were, and things are progressing to a solid gold system even if it takes two more presidents to get done. Already I see the poles going up in my town as we get ready for initial electric service. Even when I visit my parents in Fresno the trains are brand new pending their move to the fresh track. Things are improving and improving in obvious ways.
>>1572075As I thought, this is literally the only place with a real electrified rail plan and funding in america.I live in Mill Valley BTW, and while SMART is super comfy this just isn't the place for a full fledged EMU commuter rail. It's somewhat dense compared to suburban america, but it's not even close to SF peninsula tier housing and jobs density, nor should it be. We're just blessed with all the super comfy leftover NPW ROW from a bygone era. We also have smol stations, I believe San Rafael can't even fit 4 DMU's at once without blocking roads hence the system is limited to 3 at a time. With some urban work, blocking roads for stops is technically feasible for a 4 DMU chain.CapCorr electrification is my dream, that corridor really has potential. A second transbay tube carrying CapCorr and linking SF-Sac in an hour would be based as fuck. Their vision implementation plan is a great read, I see you're already familiar with it. https://images.capitolcorridor.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/CCVIP-FINAL-REPORT.pdfI haven't really been following what's been going on with BART expansion and their feuds with just about every local agency in the south bay, and now ACE, BART, and VR are all competing to carry people across altamont pass to Stockton? Lmao. Up here SMART and CapCorr are frens and considering linkage.>>1572082>why are we using technology from the 19th century to do it? fucking kill yourself jesus fucking christ, moving people is a basic physics problem, and there will never be a better solution than steel-on-steel rail. Hyperlook is the dumbest shit I've ever seen. There will never flying cars. There will never be maglev trains everywhere unless we discover room temperature superconductors or self sustaining fusion power, and either of those would cost closer to 80 Trillion USD.
cont.>>1572083do European cities have HSR blast through them at 200mph? no? thought so. 110mph and at grade crossings on the peninsula are fine.>>1572076also 22 based zoomber. I just want electric trains by the time I'm a 30 something year old boomer with money to blow on weekend trips to LA.>>15720869 billion dollars just fucking lol, split this state up already I've had it with socal. Even fucking SF DTX under the most expensive real estate in the world has only ballooned to 6 billion.>>1572094>125mph trains between Merced and Bakersfieldyeah about that, I was under the impression CAHSRA didn't want san joaquins siemens chargers barrelling down their tracks at all, are they now considering AMTRAK service until the EMU's are running?
>>1572157>do European cities have HSR blast through them at 200mph? no?Grade crossings are less safe than overpasses regardless of the speed. Less than ideal as well, but I could understand that if this was pitched as a 'budget' system but it's not.
>>1572075>UP could also sell the former SP subdivision in the way they sold/are selling SP's Altamont routeI thought Altamont was a Western Pacific route
>>1572157>110mph and at grade crossings on the peninsula are fine.No. 110mph is fine. Grade crossings at that speed are a potential lethal accident waiting to happen. Grade-separated, like any railroad 80mph+ should, is the way.
>>1571290>funded unfortunately congress is responsible for budget, so democrats have to win both houses, so if you are a railfan and live in the wonderful state of Georgia in January your vote for democratic senators can make this happen
>>1572157>yeah about that, I was under the impression CAHSRA didn't want san joaquins siemens chargers barrelling down their tracks at all, are they now considering AMTRAK service until the EMU's are running?CHSRA originally didn't want any of this, but their attitude changed when it becmae necessary to secure money. So the San Joaquins will run on their track and it is expected they will eventually become California's equivalent of the NE Regional, with CHSRA trains being CA's Acela equivalent. Both work together anyway, by doing this CHSRA trains can ignore all the milk stops (pretty much all stations besides SF, downtown LA and Anahiem) as the San Joaquins will pick them up. Revenue is also maximized in this way.>>1572247There's two. The SP route is the original transcontinental railroad route and was mostly torn out (although the right-of-way preserved) in the 1990s. The WP route is a moderately busy UP route built adjacent. Within the bay side of the mountains, there's three routes: the SP Oakland subdivision, the SP Coast subdivision, and the WP Niles subdivision. Only the latter two are in active operation, the formermost is also BART's corridor and has had service dwindle since the 1990s as UP consolidated operations to the other two. Thus, this is an obvious expansion point for BART services, including what is now Valley Link (imagine eBART but with ACE influence). As VL uses standard RR equipment (80' cars and vehicles that can get an FRA waiver, or can be reinforced to not need it) this creates a lot of options.UP is not happy because all this massive expansion south of Sacramento will eventually happen north of the river, which is where UP makes all their money. This is exactly where all the Sacramento Northern routes are reconsidered because they're the only other right-of-way UP would consider if the state government started throwing in a lot more trains between Martinez and Auburn.
>>1572008That thumbnail made me realize, those would look really good in the Phase I Amtrak scheme.
>>1571290The only thing I can definitely see him doing is taking a more active role in sorting out the CAHSR shitshow.
Anyone who says Biden isn’t going to fight for rail, transit and bike lanes is low-effort trolling.However, if Republicans control the Senate they will probably cut their nose off to spite their face and shoot down transit bills, because they put party over country. OTOH not all republicans hate infrastructure so Biden’s rail ambitions could pass with a slim majority and a helping of pork to Republicans.
>>1572329>Anyone who says Biden isn’t going to fight for rail, transit and bike lanes is low-effort trolling.No one cares about them
If republicans care about the economy they won't block his transit or climate legislation. Renewables and transit are better for jobs and consumers.
>>1573035>Renewables and transit are better for jobs and consumers.How?
>>1573038renewables is a growing industrynot obvious how transit is a good area of work, so I wouldn't agree with anon
>>1572329I’ve heard of a few Republican senators who actually like rail. To me the main thing is getting rid of oil subsidies. Once you do that people will just drive less and explore other options.
>>1573139>To me the main thing is getting rid of oil subsidies.Get ready to see the cost of everything go up, moron
>>1571699Trump can't use military money for the wall. Biden can't use it for a state transit project.
>>1571637Expand amtrak routes in flyover County. Focused on intercity services. 2 man crews for freight trains. Fine freight RRs for delaying passenger services.
>>1573140No need to subsidize oil.
>>1573144No need to subsidize renewables as well
I'm so fucking glad he's going to end oil subsidies. After that happens you're going to see a big increase in cycling and transit ridership.
>>1574026Stop bumping this thread with brainlet posts, retard
>>1574026Cycling is already seeing a boost, oddly enough, from COVID. With enough money, we can absolutely turn cities into fully multimodal metropolises under a Biden presidency.
>>1571478Were seriously still fossil fuel lobby posting?
>>1571496> the russia memeThey’ve been pushing that for four years and i’ve literally never met a straight or triple digit IQ person that believes any if it.
>>1571589> shut down the school systemIf i had to pick one thing to save the future of this nation, it would be to ens ALL federal funding and loans towards education of any kind at all whatsoever.
>>1571724Romney will never be accepted by any actual republican voter again. The right has been permanently changed by Trump.
>>1574026what fucking subsidies, the federal government overall makes bank on its energy leases. They just take a cut instead of forming a state owned company like RosNeft or Gasprom.
>>1573140subsidies aren't free. you're already putting the cost of something else up to pay for them.
>>1574299Thanks Captain Obvious
>>1574300anyone who thinks oil subsidies are holding down prices apparently needs to be told
>>1573140Temporarily, oil-based products would get more expensive. Then people would just use more alternatives to oil.You’re either a retard or a shill.
>>1574405You're presuming the substitutes would be cheaper
>>1574301Cagetrolls don’t seem to understand even the simplest logic.
>>1571638>>1571668>>1571639Black men rule your mind, sissy.
>>1571290>a man who was already a politician when Penn Central existed has just become president How is this even possible?
>>1572094They're building light rail in my county. After about 20 years they managed to build ~35 km and they plan 187 km of rail total.
>>1574636Because the great majority of Americans voted for him and he won the Electoral College as well.
>>1574405Diesel prices affect everything.
>>1571290((New president)) enjoy your soviet union commie trains
>>1577684Man, I wish Biden was actually a commie
I could see President Biden giving Texas Central some legislative help. https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2020/11/12/joe-biden-texas-central-high-speed-rail.html
>>1574703There’s no logic to subsidizing oil. If we have to burn a bunch of diesel for people to consoom random Chinese-made shit then they should pay for it.
>>1577750We would pay a bunch more to eat dumbass, everything is farmed and brought to market with diesel tractors and trucks
>>1577760> everything is farmed and brought to market with diesel tractors and trucksBecause we subsidized oil for so long the industry adapted to take advantage of it. Now we’ve got different technology coming on the market and there’s no reason to be subsidizing oil.You’re either braindamaged or a shill.
>>1577834>and there’s no reason to be subsidizing oilYes there is. It benefits both intermediaries and end consumers.
I’m looking forward to electric farm equipment. Cleaner, more reliable, cheaper to fuel. Everyone wins.https://investorplace.com/2020/11/idex-stock-news-today-soars-ideanomics/
>>1577844>Subsidies are communist Brainlet take
>>1577685It doesn't matter what he is. He is not really in charge of anything, his commie/socialist handlers are
>>1571555This. The startup costs for an airline make building a Brightline-style HSR corridor look dirt cheap by comparison and yet there have been dozens of new passenger airlines since 1960 but only one Brightline.
>>1571290Interest in public transit is already plummetting thanks to corona and everybody working from home, and once Biden's National Lockdown in February kills off every last small business that managed to limp through 2020 on outdoor dining and takeout, there will be exactly zero reason whatsoever for trying to move back into the city because once we "build back better" it'll be nothing but chains that are left.Oh, and woke-inspired policing reforms mean that the cities will be nexuses of crime just like they were in the 1970s and 80s (because you can't enforce the law on any black man, ever, because doing so is literally slavery.) and so once the subways are again the best place to get mugged by a bunch of youths it'll be 1970s/80s NYC all over again where everyone takes Uber and Lyft to avoid getting mugged on the subway and ridership levels (and investment) continue to flatline.For instance:https://www.wbur.org/bostonomix/2020/11/09/mbta-service-cuts-proposal-ferries-buses-commuter-railHere's Boston's MBTA, the second most ridden mass transit system in the country (by ridership per mile, that is) slashing rapid transit headways, cutting commuter ferry service entirely, and eliminating weekend service on the commuter rail. Between this and the small businesses apocalypse currently underway in and around Boston, it'll probably take decades for things to recover.We're not getting national high speed rail, we're getting austerity with a smile.
Stocks are going WAY up now that Biden’s transition to the presidency is confirmed.
>>1578150You poltards are shilling everywhere you can huh.
>>1577848That's something you're looking forward to, Chang?>>1578172>t. Chang
>>1578180Are you saying only chinese people want American stocks to do well?
>>1578150There are small businesses other than restaurants fatass
>>1578564no, not really any more.
>>1578575but I work at one and our profit margins have only grown since the reopening
There's always the possibility that senate republicans will do another 180 and pretend they care about deficits again. That was their excuse when they struck high-speed rail out of the budget during the Obama administration.
>>1579425>and pretend they care about deficits againA very slight possibility that the republicans would do something like that, again.
>>1579715>SlightI keep forgetting some adults are too young to remember Occupy and Obama’s first act as president
>>1579715I believe they raised the debt ceiling 6 times under Bush, and when Trump was president they even went so far as to claim the national debt doesn't matter at all.Now that we have a Democrat president I'm sure they'll do another 180.
>>1571290What is a Ralfian president?
>>1580194OP is referring to PEOTUS Joe Biden commuting to the Capitol via Amtrak every day when he was one of Delaware's senators
>>1581326Well, now that he’s president, the train is too dangerous for him so he has to ride everywhere in a car.
>Do we think we’ll see public transit expansion funded by the Feds?Definitely. He'll probably have a bigger version of the TIGER grant program for all kinds of city infrastructure projects including bike lanes and sidewalks.High-speed rail will be a difficult to pull off legislatively but he'll probably make an effort. He may use executive order to create some rail programs. Presidents like to leave a legacy and a high-speed rail line could be his thing.
>>1581341It's pitiful how hard you shill for him
>>1581341>Presidents like to leave a legacy and a high-speed rail line could be his thing.Don't get my hopes up like that
>>1581337>train is too dangerousuh anonhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Magellan_(railcar)
>>1581367The guy did propose HSR twice while he was VP. No reason to think he wouldn’t do it as president.
>>1581494Why did he just propose it and not do it
>>1581504Because America isn’t a dictatorship and things need to be approved by Congress. Sadly the Republicans cut it out of the budget because they don’t want to improve quality of life in America.
>>1581507HSR would be a massive money pit with little benefit to America. Even at 220 mph, with no stops, most lines between major American cities would be around 6 hours. Everything is just too far apart here for it to make sense, sorry anon. A line going down the eastern seaboard makes sense though, but that’s pretty much the only place.
>>1581511Like calling it “high speed” is just clever branding to fool people like you.>Oh, you want to go from Denver to Chicago? Sure, that’ll be $100, and it’ll only take 8 hours!Most people don’t want to spend 8 hours on a train anon.
>>1581512Flying that route takes 2 hours and is $30 round trip. Trains simply aren’t gonna beat that.
>>1581507>America isn’t a dictatorship
<- Low-quality bait.
I’ve never seen an argument against high-speed rail that made any sense.
>>1581593As opposed to what?
>>1581616It's not "opposed to" anything.
>>1571589but schools are state-provided daycare centers, they enable adults to work and earn money to pay taxes
>>1581586It’s a slower, more expensive version of a plane that requires tearing up massive amounts of the earth to build tons of infrastructure for a technology from 300 years ago. It’s not fast enough for people to commute between cities on, and too slow for it to be a fun tourist attraction to hop between cities in like in Europe. Why would anyone ride high speed rail in America other than novelty factor? There’s nothing. I get that train enthusiasts love to see any new rail but it’s just a pipe dream and there’s a reason it’s never happened, and it’s never going to happen.
High speed rail is faster than planes for regional trips. It's also much more comfortable and you get to enjoy nice views.
>>1581964The proposed high speed rail from LA-SF has a 3 hour travel time. That trip on a plane takes an hour and is $80 round trip. You can’t beat that, even with flying being nerfed by archaic pointless TSA regs that only still exist because you can’t fire all of those people.
>>1582029Not to mention services like JetSuite that absolutely blow High Speed Rail out of the water in every regard.
>>1582029Cool, now factor in driving time from Downtown Los Angeles to LAX and from SFO to Downtown San Francisco
>>1582133Hsr and planes both have last mile issues and are less useful without supporting infrastructure. Your comment is a moot point.
>>1582133Less than an hour in both cases.
>>1582248Actually less than 30 minutes in both cases
>>1582248>>1582249Google Maps isn't factoring in pre-pandemic rush hour traffic right now. Are you sure even during that rush it takes less than half an hour to get to LAX from Downtown Los Angeles?
>>1582178That last mile for HSR is usually at a downtown train station, rather than 5+ miles outside of the CBD, so that's better. San Francisco also has far better transit coverage than LA, about on par with Chicago and the Northeast
>>1582314Yeah if you know the right way to go definitely. Also there's a rail line to the airport that's just about to be completed.
>>1582318Not to mention it only has to take less than an hour to beat high speed rail.
>>1582319What’s crazy also is that the trip is supposed to take 3 hours, right? Well driving that route only takes 5 hours. So you’re choices are a 1 hour flight if you want to get there fast, a 5 hour drive if you want to get there and have your car or bring any larger cargo, or a 3 hour train ride if you want to get there a little bit faster than driving but only be able to bring what you would bring on a plane? And for more expensive? It just doesn’t make sense.
>>1578150>nexuses of crime just like they were in the 1970s and 80s (because you can't enforce the law on any black manthe problem isnt black people, the problem is the mentally illthey do something bad and get caught, get sent to an institution for awhile and get meds that would make them functional members of societythen they get out and have no job, no home, and they stop taking their meds because reality is so much shittier than whatever delusions they were under beforeideally we should give these people a fighting chance at integrating to society by giving them a few months in a shelter to find a job but they tend to be left to their own devicesand due to the shameful history of psychiatry in the US, SCOTUS has made it much harder to institutionalize people who have no intention of even trying to reintegratethe average black criminal would just mug you, the mentally ill are more color-blind in who they attack and they dont care about money
>>1582325>It just doesn’t make senseyou get to pay someone else to drive, get drunk, and still arrive earlier
>>1582345Dude I am 100% more worried about Darius and DaShawn than some fucking bum yelling at the ground
>>1582348You can do that with a plane
>>1582356*rocking back and forth, repeating this phrase to himself*
>>1582369>ABOLISH TRAINS GIB 40 MILE COMMUTER FLIGHTS FOR $50 ONE-WAY
>>1582456The door-to-door time of a car blows a train completely out of the water.
>>1582456God you know you’ve really fucked up someone’s day when they’re responding with 2017 wojak images.
>>1582315>That last mile for HSR is usually at a downtown train station, rather than 5+ miles outside of the CBD,>so that's better.How?
>>1582457>ROLL-ON, ROLL-OFF COMMUTER FLIGHTS? WHAT A BRILLIANT IDEA
The guys predicting Biden won't do anything are the same people who "predicted" tesla would fail and Biden would lose.So it's safe to say Biden's going to build a lot of rail.
>>1571290Fuck septa, and the king of prussia extension. We already have shwoogies taking the bus to rob people at kop
>>1582029>That trip on a plane takes an hourHow can you say that with a straight face?>$80 round trip.it's usually over $100.>>1582518Because the transbay transit center is centrally located with connections to BART, Muni, buses, and ferries.
>>1582979Oh it’s 20 dollars more, sorry. The ridiculously faster plane trip isn’t even the most ridiculous part. If it takes you an hour to get to the train station, which is actually very reasonable unless you live near the station like very few people do, the door-to-door time of driving would actually be FASTER compared to “high speed” rail.
>>1582979>Because the transbay transit center is centrally located with connections to BART, Muni, buses, and ferries.So?
>>1583088>Train station doesn't exist outside my home in bumblefuck nowhere and run nonstop service to exactly where I need to go, literally unusable destroy all trains
>>1583173Nice straw man
>>1583173Well, unless you build a train station in everyone and their office’s driveway, cars are always going to have it beat there, so don’t even try.
>>1583176Well, unless you build a car that can go up stairs, feet are always going to have it beat there, so don't even try
>>1583088I don't know what to say to this level of retardation. Care to elaborate?
>>1583292>Care to elaborate?No
It's not just Biden, the whole Democratic party is significantly more pro-transit than before.
>>1583444You lose.>>1583450>the whole Democratic party is significantly more pro-transit than beforeHahaha like they were ever "pro transit"
>>1578097public transportation =/= communismyou're really stuck in the past aren't you
>>1583554>Hahaha like they were ever "pro transit"They weren't. Historically, it was the GOP that was the more pro-transit of the two, until Southern Strategy
Kamala is also a big proponent of rail as well.
>>1583642Public transit is inherently communist. There’s almost zero private transit in the world, because it’s nearly impossible to make money off of transit. So it’s provided by the government as a service where the losses are covered by the taxpayer. The problem is, the people who actually use public transit actually end up putting much less tax revenue towards it with their lower income than wealthier people who fund most of public transit but are much less likely to actually use it.
Britain’s high-speed rail system is private and I like it. Hopefully the Biden administration doesn’t block private high-speed rail the way Republicans do, because it would be a great boost to our economy.
>>1583669The Metroliner pre-dates the collapse of the New Deal coalition.
>>1571388That’s because during Obama every meaningful HSR bill died in committee
We just need something like a small TIGER grant program again to get a lot of current projects off the ground. But it remains to be seen whether he’ll do a high-speed rail network. His site claims he wants to and in town halls he’s discussed it, mentioning it as “one of the most important things you can do”.
>>1583748Biden has no reason to, and California won't either for that matter. Only reason XPW's bond sale was pushed back was because CA believes it can get a higher price later on. There is also the suggestion that Caltrans could buy into some of the bonds if private investors won't, although this would give CA a stake in the project. Theoretically CAHSR allows for private investment as well, although nobody other than Sacramento wants in.And really with the way things are going, highway tolling is likely inevitable. Once that happens the idea of privately funded passenger railroads will return.
>>1585638It's more than startup grants, he already has a solid work program in several key routes:>NEC: building a new Hudson Tunnel and North-South Boston Tunnel>SEC: DC to Richmond, Richmond to Raleigh, Charlotte to Atlanta>Michigan: commuter rail in Ann Arbor and Toledo>Chicagoland: new Moline route and St. Charles cutoff>NYC-Chicago: Ohio and Indiana>California: Pacheco Pass and Burbank to Anahiem>PNW: Sounder station upgrades, Corvallis rail extension and more passing tracks>Utah: dedicated Frontrunner tracks>Colorado: front range railThis is just a short list; Biden has been working on this his whole life since Amtrak's inception. Now as President he can fully implement a short-term plan to aggressively build out the above and encourage longer-term development through a dedicated Amtrak bill. Much of what he argued for during Obama's years is now midway through construction or just starting.
>>1585675>And really with the way things are going, highway tolling is likely inevitable. Once that happens the idea of privately funded passenger railroads will return.I can definitely see that. Like Georgia and Florida are currently building out toll lanes, but eventually they’re going to realize they just need to toll existing lanes.
Boottygig is going to be sec trans.So nothing but over cost behind schedule and poorly planned trams
>>1585677Oh, nice. So now with Buttigieg we’ve got a guy who went to Harvard, Oxford and worked at a top data analytics firm running the DOT. Invariably he’ll see how much of a budget sink the highway systems are. Buttigieg is also known to make a big deal about climate change and secured funding to speed up South Bend’s light rail line to Chicago.He likes small towns and might be a big proponent of commuter rail. I don’t think he’s ever mentioned high-speed rail specifically though.
>>1585928Based Indiana faggot?
How is he going to do?
>>1585928>Invariably he’ll see how much of a budget sink the highway systems are.Every high level politician has done thisEvery high level politician has realized how economic activity they facilitateThat's why highways have and will continue to get the most transportation funding>a guy who went to Harvard, Oxford>worked at a top data analytics>He likes small townsJfc at the shit that impresses you. Bird brain
>>1586468Lukewarm, like anyone else between 1970 and 2017.
>>1585928I love how much cagetroll butthurt this post caused.
I’m hoping Biden and Buttigieg really expand the train systems around DC and Maryland first. Then hopefully a HSR route to North Carolina.
>>1586769Shouldn't they reward Georgia for voting for them?
>>1586769Virginia is already working on DC-Richmond service, which is where Biden will start. Better Maryland service will boil down to what MARC wants and how they can rope PA and WA into it.
His transportation adviser described Biden’s goals as “TIGER Grants on steroids” not just for shovel-ready projects but projects that have been well-planned too.I personally think he chose Buttigieg because he’s a smooth talker who can sell the idea of rail to more people.
>>1571841>through Winston-SalemWhy? That would involve swinging back west from Raleigh and sharp right northward. Also, Winston-Salem is nowhere near as significant a city as Richmond
>>1571290lol no fucking way
>>1586776politics aside, The nation really should have good rail service from boston to Georgia, and connect as many major cities as possible.
>>1591372I'd even say Boston to Miami.
Biden is going to really push for clean energy which will start dismantling the oil-political complex that pushes for car-dependency in America. So I think it's natural to see growth in rail whether he specifically pushes for it or not. https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/01/biden-clean-energy-453171
>>1571699>There's no way we are actually going to get involved in Iraq again, because there is zero public support for it and Congress would nuke it.lol
You're obviously going to see more federal funding for transit programs.But I think he might make the mistake of funding car-focused programs as well, like EVs.There's also the risk that he gives states money for "highway repair" and then the Republican states spend it on highway expansion without repairing the ones they have, which they are prone to do.
>>1592644>There's also the risk that he gives states money for "highway repair" and then the Republican states spend it on highway expansion without repairing the ones they have, which they are prone to do.When has that happened?
>>1592644I just hope it doesn’t end up like Obamabux where you got money for building bike lanes so towns would just put shitty useless cheap bike lanes in random spots and pocket the rest of the money
>>1592658That's a very likely possibility
I didn't realize Trump was a railfan...
>>1592645Many states spend money on new highways before repairing the ones they have, it’s happened dozens of times.Recently several states raised the gas tax and used the money to fund new highways. Americans rarely ever think about highway maintenance until it’s too late. The new governor of Wisconsin ran on a platform of “fixing the damn roads” because Scott Walker was too fucking stupid to do it.
>>1592980>Many states spend money on new highways before repairing the ones they have, it’s happened dozens of times.Where? Which new highways were built?>Recently several states raised the gas tax and used the money to fund new highways. So what? That's what it's for
>>1592644Honestly, this is most realistically what will happen. Some transit funding but for projects that might add a LRT line in a downtown area or another DC streetcar, and highway money all across America. Basically, a third term of the Obama administration.
>>1593362eh, VP Biden more or less created a completely new Amtrak corridor in Michigan since MIDOT bought the tracks three years ago. It is now entirely conceivable that Michigan gets NEC-style high speed service, the only impediments to it are the final approach into Chicago and grade crossings that can be eliminated. A similar project to Cleveland is plausible, creating a basic but usable network across the upper midwest. If Cuomo gets his act together and commits to NYS HSR then Chicago-NYC HSR can happen.On the west coast, CAHSR continues construction and will start tunneling under Biden's first term which will finish around the end of his second. Loose ends remain in the LA area but this can be dealt with much easier. To the north the PNW is soon to adopt a formal HSR plan and build program to facilitate it.Even if Biden only does what he did under Obama, there's still a significant net gain. For example Nevada may build a completely new 4-lane interstate between Reno and Vegas instead of rebuilding the train tracks, but this merely hurts them when it doesn't meet expectations or the road is used for something they don't want (Yucca Mtn, whose railroad Nevada successfully cockblocked four years ago). In California Fienstien's demand for a second car bay bridge was shut down and instead there's demand for new rail bridges instead. So there is progress.
At the moment it looks like Dems are winning in Georgia so I guess Republicans won’t be able to block Biden from his rail ambitions.
>>1593375>Even if Biden only does what he did under Obama, there's still a significant net gain.My thoughts exactly. But Biden is way bigger on transit and bike lanes than Obama ever was. But now that the Dems control all 3 branches they’re going to push through some Green New Deal stuff.
Okay, Trump fucked his party over and now Dems control all three branches of government. Ossof in particular is a big fan of transit.
>>1594078>Ossof in particular is a big fan of transit.What the fuck are you talking about
>>1594079He’s a big environmentalist. His two signature positions are clean energy and transit.
>>1594082He has no signature positions
>>1594078What are the chances for a railroad from Atlanta to the sea?
But what’s the point
>>1594078>Okay, Trump fucked his party over and now Dems control all three branches of government.lmao
>>1594091Higher than nonexistent but not as high as a railroad from Atlanta to Nooga.
>>1593775I wouldn't go so far for a GND but I feel like highway tolling is in the cards as that would have enough Republican support and allow passage of smaller riders like increasing the EPA's minimum fuel economy requirements or banning incandescent light bulb ban. In my view a big test for Biden is Yucca Mtn's future, as the amount of nuclear material piled up is large enough where it has to be dealt with one way or another. Either he approves Yucca Mtn (and the corresponding railroad to feed it) or he moves it to New Mexico at the WIPP. Being able to do either would show his true commitment to green energy; the WIPP option being the lesser of the two whereas if he pushes hard for Yucca Mtn then it'd be a hard demonstration of him willing to tackle uncomfortable problems.
>>1573142They all seem pretty sensible ideas.
>>1594421Any kind of HSR route out of Atlanta would be based. Deep South is the best place to put in a new rail line and start the revolution.
>>1594650Would a HSR connection be good or bad for the airport?It might replace short distance connections but bring in more long distance passengers.
>>1593775Oh, so you want to see the economy fail? Great! I hope you're prepared, retard.
>>1594423I'm not saying they're passing the entire GND but they will pass some elements. I think certain elements of GND even have support among republicans.Remember most republican voters support clean energy and the millennial republicans are conscious of climate change.But I'd say highway tolling is definitely gonna pass, especially as more vehicles become electric and the gas tax stops being a viable way to fund highways. Right now a lot of states don't have a way to fund their highway maintenance as it is.
>>1594082Osoff is an empty suit. He votes how the party bosses want.
>>1594829Pardon the /pol/tardspeak, but it beats voting how the (((oil company CEOs))) want
>>1595977True. Also when someone’s pro-transit the cagetrolls do everything they can to discredit him. I’m optimistic about Ossof’s transit stances, he’s big on climate change.
>>1596027Nice to know you're on board with a nobody junior senator, Wang
Hey, the schizo who thinks everyone on /n/ is Chinese is back again.
>>1596361>calling others schizophrenics is totally not schizophrenic
>>1571398ugh, I can smell this half cuban mongoloid typing from his balmy one story apartment
Well, Biden’s not owned by the fossil fuel industry, so he’s fundamentally different than Trump.But the real reason we’ll see a push towards transit funding in this country is that we have Dem majorities in the senate and house.
>>1596526But transit funding =/= transit actually getting built properly and promptly
>>1581413>Biden decides AF1 is too expensive/pollutes too much>Goes everywhere by train now
I'm so glad the majority of our government's not owned by the oil lobby anymore.
>>1596686Before you mention the Koch brothers, Wang, I'd like to remind you that one of them is deceased.
>>1596687?Who is Wang?I'm just pointing out that Republicans are controlled by the fossil fuel lobbyists.
>>1596686I get the feeling that you are very wrong, but I do hope you’re right
>>1596714You should rely on facts, not feelings. Trump’s the kind of guy who goes with his gut on everything and his presidency was a trainwreck. He wasn’t successful in business either.
4 years of autistic cagetroll meltdowns.
Now that climate change is one of the most important issues among voters, opposing transit will be political suicide from now on.
Hopefully autotrain will get upgraded. Air conditioning in the sleepers suck and the WiFi is nonexistent
They should cancel the Autotrain as it encourages cagerism.
>>1596386If you're American enough to have a reasonable disdain for Miami Cubans, then I'm afraid you're American enough to be an honorary mutt, yourself.