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/BTR/ Bicycle Training and Racing
Super Mario edition: winning the sprint

Discuss all things bicycle training and racing on your bike related.
'Transport' yourself first over the finish line -- or to work on time when you're running late.
Ride farther, ride faster, climb better -- all it takes is training.
Training methods, training tools, training questions.
Post here if you want to *git gud*.

This discussion thread is implicitly endorsed by the moderation staff by way of historical precedent; haters need not apply.
>>
To start things off:

Most of you should be up to the point where you've got some early-season road races under your belt.
How's your sprint coming along? What are you doing to improve it? Having problems? Ask questions, someone here will likely have something useful to say.

Time Trialists: how's your muscular endurance work coming? Any TT's yet? How'd you do?

Recreational cyclists:
Want to improve? Get in here.
>>
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>>1302017
ayy lmao

First races of the season went fine. I only started late last summer so I spent February/March finishing the rest of my cat 5 races. I catted up before the last one and got 6th in a field of 35 for my first race as a 4. The course was just flat and windy and everyone was chasing everything so it was a field sprint at the end. I hugged the yellow line trying to stay away from the main field as much as I could and followed another rider who didn't want to get tangled up in that mess either, but luckily everyone stayed upright through the finish.

Now I just have bi-weekly TTs until June when a local crit series starts up.
>>
Is there any way to "compete" using old steel road bikes?
Kinda like oldtimer "racing" with cars, where you're just in it for the community and experience of going fast on old steel?
>>
>>1302038
I'll say it again: haters need not apply.
This type of thread has existed for years in this place and is never moderated out.
You however are off-topic and are subject to moderation.
Your argument is invalid. Leave.
>>
so last year I moved to a location where mtb makes more sense than road cycling. I've been trying to improve my fitness on a mountain bike, I started out trying to sit and spin from when I rode road bikes but would quickly run out of steam. stomping on the pedals standing up has dramatically improved my strength and ability to conquer steep gradients. previously I took "spin to win" to mean never ever mash or get out of the saddle which is wrong. nothing impressive, but I learnt something and have improved myself which is good.
>>
>>1302042
(Here in the U.S. anyway) It doesn't matter what your frame material is you can enter any USA Cycling-sanctioned, ranked race you qualify for, all the way up to the Cat-1/2 Pro categories. Whether you can actually compete on a steel frame bike (with downtube shifters?) or not is another matter entirely.
If you do it be sure to write a report here so we see how you did.
>>
>>1302044
The reason you don't stand to pedal all the time and sit on the saddle instead is because it's very inefficient. You can develop all sorts of force that way (which means faster) but you can't do it forever because you're supporting your own weight at the same time.
You develop 'muscular endurance' that's cycling-specific by staying in the saddle.
Think about it: would you do a 5-mile-long climb entirely out of the saddle? As you say, you'd die off quick that way.
You need to do two things:
1. Stay in the saddle
2. Keep the effort *sustainable* over the entire effort
If you can't sustain a level of effort for more than 5-6 minutes then you're going too hard; it's anaerobic at that point. Back off to a level you can manage.

Having a heart rate monitor helps. A power meter helps more but that's more expensive.
If you get a HR monitor or power meter there's testing you should do to determine training zones, which you use to pace yourself on things like climbs.

Beyond that climbing repeats (again, at a sustainable level of effort) are something anyone can do. Pick a hill that's about 5% and takes you at least 6 minutes to climb. Climb sustainably, then go back to the bottom, spin easy for a few minutes, and climb again. Repeat until you feel like you're done with that for the day. You can do this twice a week with a day or two of easier riding between. In 2-3 weeks you'll see a difference.
>>
>>1302042
I would say 10 out of 10 times you're going to want integrated levers for racing. They really do make all the difference in a tight group and being able to respond to attacks instantly. Can you be competitive on a steel bike with those equipped? Absolutely.
>>
>>1302049
oh 5% gradient isn't an issue at all, this is 15% and peaks at 53%
>>
>>1302045
>>1302050
Not what I want though. I don't want to enter a race where I'll be eyed suspiciously as "the dangerous one" in a group that's going all out.

I'm not stupid enough to try to compete seriously with downtube shifters. I just really like riding with them, and old schools cleats, knowing full well that they're inferior in every way, but I'd want to experience "racing" in a group where others have imposed the same limitations on themselves.
>>
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>>1302051
this is the hill that was giving me grief before standing on the pedals
>>
>>1302056
I've never heard of anything like that, but that does not mean such races don't exist. In my experience a large number of people on retro roadies are the types who rant about carbon fiber on the internet and ride purely for enjoyment. I think retro racing would be fun, but I know out of everyone I ride with I'm the only person who owns a bike with downtube shifters.
>>
>>1302017
>>1302030

I have these glasses and wear them all the time. Mine are dark blue/black tho
>>
how do i ride my bike without using the handlebar
>>
>>1302092
you mean hands free?
Just ride normally, and gradually decrease the pressure you put on the handlebars while steering.
Try steering with only one finger on one hand. If you can do that, take off the finger for a second, then longer. You get the idea.
>>
>>1302110
hey i can do that
nice
>>
>>1302056
>but I'd want to experience "racing" in a group where others have imposed the same limitations on themselves.
You're not likely at all to find what you want, then. I've only ever seen 1 guy in 10 years who showed up at a road race (a *flat* road race for that matter) with a steel bike of any kind, and he finished somewhere back of the middle of the pack. I don't even know where to send you to look for what you want, it's just too specific.
>>
>>1302051
>>1302058
>peaks at 53%
Bait. Front wheel wouldn't even be on the ground, you'd flip over backwards.
>>
>>1302058
I'll believe that's real if you post actual map coordinates for it and/or Strava segment that represents it.

>>1302055
>seething leglet
>>
>>1302092
IT's easier when the bike is going faster, because the wheels are gryoscopes and stabilise the bike
so try taking your hands off when you're riding down a steep hill
>>
>>1302199
>so try taking your hands off when you're riding down a steep hill
You're this guy (>>1302055) aren't you?
>>
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>>1302183
why do you think an incline of ~24° is impossible to climb?
>>1302184
I'd post the coordinates but its literally the road to my house
>>
>>1302183
Old switchbacks regularly peak at over 100% in the turns.

>>1302019
>Most of you should be up to the point where you've got some early-season road races under your belt.
The roads are still covered in ice and there's still well over half a meter of snow. Taking a week off to go skiing next week and might get my first outdoor training rides for this year month from now.
>>
last night i drifted a bus on a slightly uphill road , managed to go 50kmph at some points, got a kom on a over 10minute strava segment. fuuuuuun.
not really training as i just returned from a month trip without any training. but should start to really train soon.like next week. nice thread will post tomorrow.
>>
>>1302280
Whatever, if you insist. There is no training for climbs that steep. You just endure them. If you can't you can't.
>posts """HC""" grades
>>
>>1302285
>/DRT/
>>1299538
Drafting buses is not in the scope of this thread.
>>
>>1302285
Drifting your bus will get you fired. Also, wrong thread.
>>
>>1302346
Dejavu!
>>
managed 4w/kg up a climb today for just under 20minutes, pretty chuffed about that.
>>
>>1302182
found it.

https://eroica.cc/
>>
>>1302501
Huh.
Okay, should have thought of that: basically Gran Fondos, but with specific requirements for bikes and equipment, kind of like the 'Eddie Merckx' option at some TT's (i.e. no aero equipment allowed).
Well, there you go, but I hope you've got money to burn, because you'd have to fly to wherever these 'events' are held, if they're not close enough to drive to.
>>
>>1302377
>just under 20 minutes
That's pretty good. How did you feel afterwards, could you have theoretically kept up with a group on the backside of the climb?

Basically your FTP is 4W/kg, then, which if you weren't completely destroyed and could keep up with a group after that climb, you'd potentially do well at a road race.

Repeatability is important, too; do you think you could do that twice in a 50-mile road race?

That's good progress in any case.
Have you done any racing yet? If so please tell us how it went for you.
>>
>>1302508
Luckily I can just hop on a train with my bicycle and ride to the event in Limburg for ~50€.
>>
>>1302284
>Old switchbacks
That's not an extended climb that takes double-digit minutes to complete though, that's a blip on the radar that takes a dozen or so hard kicks of the cranks to get past. Any decently conditioned rider should be able to do that.

I found a ridewithgps map of a ride some teammates and I went on a few years back, toughest day of climbing I ever did not in small part because of the altitude. Some sections are so steep that I had to be in the drops to keep the front wheel on the ground, and even then I had to be careful how hard I hit the cranks.
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/29546026
>>
>>1302042
you're looking for an eroica event, of which there is only one in the US, on april 9th in california
>>
>>1302567
Someone posted it: >>1302501

>>1302042
Why don't you just get a bunch of people together with bikes like yours and all show up at a Gran Fondo or Century or for that matter just organize your own event? It's niche enough that you may as well.
>>
I got a couple questions for TT bros:

Even 'just riding', not going at TT speeds, do you spend most of your time in your big chainring? I've got a 39/53 on mine and on the flat I run out of cogs on the 39-tooth pretty quick.

Also, for a given average intensity and duration, does riding your TT bike seem more fatiguing than on your regular road bike?
>>
>>1302630
My power is lower for the same perceived effort on my TT bike, be it the retarded position my body is in or the different hip angle I don't know, but yes TT bikes are not built for comfort at all. Being uncomfortable will tire you out faster than being comfortable.
>>
>>1302631
Except I'm not uncomfortable. If I was uncomfortable then I'd be making adjustments to the overall fit. As-is I've had it checked by someone who specializes in TT/Tri bike fitting and there wasn't anything he thought needed to be changed, other than I could go lower a little on the cockpit if I thought I was up to it.
>>
>>1302704
I'm comfortable laying on a sofa. I'm not comfortable on my TT bike. I don't mean discomfort as pain. Of course if you're fit is fucked you're going to hurt in ways you shouldn't. Holding my arms out parallel to the ground doesn't hurt, but it is not comfortable to do for extended periods of time. Am I making sense anon?
>>
>>1302511
my heart rate was basically max, I was pretty cooked at the end after surging to the top. repeatability? good question, maybe.
Never raced, thought about it a lot over the past 4 years but been mostly content to just ride around.

Also since I'm selling my road bike (or trying to at least) people would probably look at me funny showing up to a road race with a gravelbike on 35mm slicks :v
>>
>>1302042
Yeah, they're called alleycats. A lot of the racers ride fixies but at least some alleycats allow geared bikes.
>>
>>1302928
I thought alleycat races were just for fixed gear bikes?
>>
>>1302042
>>1302928
>>1304188
Alley cats cover a variety of races from non-closed road track, through fixie only non-track, through scavenger hunt by bicycle, through "You have to work on it to ride it, now here's today's dispatch."
>>
Could anyone explain this to me?
I've never been /fit/, but I picked up cycling two years ago to get fit.
Felt like I made massive improvements that year just based on feel, being able to compare routes I rode previously.
Last year I got myself a decent road bike with a "cheap" power meter and started to see data.
Also got myself an indoor trainer for the winter months (it's rough here).

The trainer measure power really accurately and so I tried to do an FTP test. I'm 26 and landed on an FTP of 130.
I thought to myself, OK, sure - I'll work on that.
Started cycling around that number, and it seemed really tough.
Recently I read up on average FTPs and it seems like 230W FTP is LOW
I figured something must not be right, I'm young, I've been cycling pretty actively since I started, etc. so I tried bumping it up to 180 and the workouts were still quite doable, but certainly tough. Felt brave and tried 200, impossible. Had to stop halfway through a 50 minute workout.

Am I just seriously weak after two years, or could there be something medically wrong with me?
Should one do any other type of training to see a raise in base fitness?
>>
>>1304359
What power meter do you have, how much do you weigh, and how many hours are you riding per week?
>>
>>1304359
L O N D O N
O
N
D
O
N
>>
>>1304362
Powerbeat G2, ~74 Kg/163 lbs, about 5 hours during the winter and 7-8 in the summer
>>
>>1304366
Try to do a test on another trainer, your untrained numbers make no sense.
If you had severe asthma or heart problems that could explain it, but you'd notice that when you get dropped by girls on cruisers wearing summer dresses during your training rides.
>>
>>1304366
The Powerbeat could have been installed wrong, but you said you got your FTP from a test on the trainer. How do the numbers between the two power meters line up between sitting on the trainer and riding outside? A 200w FTP is abysmally low for your weight and the amount of time you train. I’d be more inclined to think your measurements are garbage. Do you ever do group rides?
>>
>>1304375
>>1304424
The trainer itself is the TACX Neo, which I doubt is inaccurate and doesn't have any sort of calibration options.
If I remember correctly, they're not entirely in line - but not too far apart. Think the Powerbeat is reading a bit higher than the Neo.

I'm probably just dying.
>>
>>1304462
Are any of your relatives athletic at all? I just don’t understand how someone can have a sub-2 w/kg doing roughly the same amount of training I do.
>>
>>1304472
Family is decently healthy and active, no special history of any issues.
>>
>>1304359
>The trainer measure power really accurately and so I tried to do an FTP test. I'm 26 and landed on an FTP of 130.
Okay, first of all: don't try to do a power test on a trainer. Trainers are demotivating and unrealistic. You need to find a place outside where you can ride uninterrupted by traffic or intersections or anything else that will make you slow or stop to do a test like that.
Second: I want you to write out for me the exact format of this 'test' you did. You may not have done it right.
Third: Give me a detailed narrative of how that 'test' went for you.

>>1304366
>about 5 hours during the winter and 7-8 in the summer
That's not nearly enough for a beginning rider to really build any endurance.
An experienced rider who has been riding many miles a week for years can train for racing on 6 or so hours a week, (Chris Carmichael's 'Time Crunched Cyclist' plan) but that won't work for a beginner like you, you need more *volume* for at least the first year to build endurance.

Do you have any sort of coherent training plan? Or do you 'just ride'? You probably need the structure of a training plan to make any real progress.

**********

Other things I'd like to know:
What kind of bike do you have?
Give me an idea of what average speed you can maintain for long distances on a flat course.
Do you do any strength training in the gym? (You should)
>>
>>1304557
>Third: Give me a detailed narrative of how that 'test' went for you.
Matter of fact, do you have data from that 'test' you uploaded somewhere like Strava? I'd like to see the data myself, it'll tell me a lot about what happened there and about your state of fitness.
>>
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I'm feeling I'm in a similar boat, just got a powertap c1, got about 185 watts on my 20 minute test. 31, 178cm, 87 kg so a bit fat. I can keep up with the cycling group that used to drop me on every climb now, after about a year and a half of cycling with a similar <10 hour weekly volume. Nothing structured yet though, just some group rides on the weekends and shorter workouts during the week, sometimes some sprints thrown in, tried to mix up zone 2/3/4. I thought progress would have put me at least in the low 200s but damn. I suppose I'll try testing outdoors though.

On a related note, is picrel true? Will I need cat 1/2 training volumes to hit cat 1/2 power numbers? Reading the Bible® rn and just saw a similar chart.
>>
>>1305060
You need high training volume to hit high power numbers. Especially if you're looking to raise your power output.

When it comes to indoor testing my numbers are a bit lower than outdoors. Also I was at ~230 W after a few years of just riding 10 - 20 hours a week but 6 months of structured training with similar volume put my ftp over 350 W. This was all at 183 cm, ~75 kg. I got plenty of background in sports so that might have helped a bit but following a structured training plan was definitely what raised my power numbers.

If this was your first ever ftp test it might also be that you rode at below your max 20 minute power. Especially since you did it indoors. Any extended efforts at max power are like hell, I get through half my hard training efforts just by repeatedly telling myself that I've done this before and I can do it so giving up isn't an option.
>>
>>1305060
Like I said to the other guy (who has not responded): can you get us the actual ride data from your 20-minute FTP test? Analysis of it will tell us quite a bit.

In lieu of that: did you really pedal through that whole 20 minute test? Or did you keep killing yourself off and stop pedaling at times for X number of seconds, fucking up the data? You MUST pedal CONSISTENTLY through the whole test or the results will be skewed. 185W average for 20 minutes is way, way low. The only way I'll believe that, is if you're totally untrained and struggle to ride, say, 20 miles without stopping -- in which case you need to just spend a year '''just riding''' and not worrying about FTP tests and hard training routines, you need to build up your basic aerobic endurance, and also spend this Fall in the gym for a couple months building general strength.

All that being said: Try using Chris Carmichaels' 'CTS Field Test' instead. It's two 8-minute, all-out, as-hard-as-you-can intervals, with a 10 minute recovery between them. Then you apply the formulas he provides to get your training zones. It's both easier and harder but mostly easier to ride hard for 8 minutes twice than 20 minutes once.

Regardless of what sort of power test you do you need to be CONSISTENT when you're doing it, and you need to ramp up the power slowly over a few minutes, so that you're working at a SUSTAINABLE level of intensity, not going anaerobic, dying out after a few minutes, gasping for air while you stop pedaling because your legs are on fire, then repeating the same mistake over and over again. Like anything else it takes time and experience to 'know yourself' well enough to do the tests properly, so over time the results of the testing get more and more accurate. But you have to try to do them correctly anyway. Hopefully I've given you enough advice to try to do that.
>>
>>1305204
185 guy here, it was continuous pedalling, I'll upload goldencheetah screenshots when I get home.

I felt like I could have done a bit higher since I wasn't dying at the end of it, but I just tried ~205 last night and died at 10 minutes. Maybe my mental tolerance is low. If it matters my 5s/1m/5m are 1007/480/260.

I go on continuous 30-50 mile group rides with no problem, I went from back of the pack/constantly dropped to keeping up with the middle in my local club.
>>
>>1305212
Okay.. while we're waiting on the GC screencap, what was your max heart rate?

Also do you do gym strength training? If so are you engaged in hard leg work at the gym while you're trying to do this power test?
If you do strength training how much do you squat or leg press, sets and reps per set?

On the bike, what is your average speed on the flat for, say, 2-3 hours, and what average power and heart rate?

We need some other yardstick to judge your overall fitness which is why all the questions.
>>
>some untrained faggot with half my ftp has higher 5s power than me
>my 5 min power is his 1 min power
This is what I get for autistically focusing on TTs.
>>
>>1305297
About 175 during the effort but it was average 170

I come from /fit/ and did SL 5x5 for a while but it's been like 3 years now, so hella squats. I topped out at only 200 lbs though.

My last group ride was about 2 hours and I did 18-20 mph on the flats but I was drafting the whole time. I didn't get power/heart rate data for that ride though because I've been using the wahoo app on my phone to log and it crashed.

>>1305305
LOW REP SQUATS

Your w/kg will probably suffer from the body weight increase though

Looking at the chart my 1 minute does seem like a dip, I tried 550 yesterday but could only do 45 seconds and even before that I think I faded.

Friel does talk about fast twitch fibers taking on slow twitch properties, I wonder if all my fibers are in the opposite state after lifting for a few years
>>
>>1305313
I've got ~2.5pl8 5RM squat. The bigger reason for such a low peak power is that I don't really train it at all. I've been dropped by plenty of people with much lower ftp than mine in sprints but I can keep the pace up for long. Also don't care much about W/kg since I care most about TTs and I live in a really flat area.
>>
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>>1305297
>>1305212
>>
>>1305350
I'm an idiot and didn't get a cycling sensor style heart rate monitor so no raw data

Max on graph is 175
>>
I'll probably get shat on for asking these questions, but what do you prefer out of
>zwift
>trainerroad
>sufferfest
>peloton
>other
?

If you were to pay for only one app/service for training, what would it be?

What is a cheap "smart" trainer these days?
>>
>>1305375
sufferfest for training, zwift for social
>>
>>1305375
Avoid all the above as much as humanly possible, for the following reasons:
* You aren't riding a bike with any of those, all you're doing is turning pedals, you get zero bike handling practice
* Riding on a trainer is demotivating for many people, you may not get as high quality a training session on one as you would riding outside on actual roads
* Riding in a group on """Zwift""" and similar gives you precisely *zero* experience riding in a fast-moving group, and if you're going to race you *need* as much of that kind of experience as possible
* Even if you're not going to race you're probably going to ride with groups and you still need experience on a regular basis riding with groups

Save using a trainer for when it's just plain impossible to ride outside. If you can possibly put fenders on your bike and put on rain gear, or wear extra layers because it's cold, *do it*, it's worth it in the long run. If it's literally snowing out, or the winds are too high, or otherwise it's just not safe, then by all means use a trainer indoors, but avoid using one as much as you can.
>>
>>1305350
..okay, you kept pedaling and were consistent through the entire 20 minute interval.

>>1305357
HR of 175 for someone your age is a little low really, you should be able to max out at about 10bpm higher than that.

What I suspect is that your legs are just plain weak, as in 'beginner' weak.

>>1305324
>I've got ~2.5pl8 5RM squat.
5 reps is nothing. You're doing /fit/-level bodybuilder stuff which really does not apply here.
Look in any version of Friels' CTB at the strength training he wants you to do, that's what you should be doing in the Fall/early Winter.

>The bigger reason for such a low peak power is that I don't really train it at all.
Well, if you give a damn about this enough to have invested in a power meter, then you need to actually do structured training.
>Also don't care much about W/kg since I care most about TTs and I live in a really flat area.
I hate to have to put it to you so bluntly, but that's completely ass-backwards. In a time trial, your FTP and muscular endurance are what it's *all about*.
Beyond the 3 months of typical traditional Base Training, *everything you do* is geared towards raising your FTP and building your muscular endurance, because you *need it* for everything from chasing down breakaways to long climbs to TT's. Your sprint power and anaerobic endurance go hand-in-hand at the end of the race when you need to try to win a sprint, but if you can't *get to the sprint* then you're *not going to sprint*.

More in the next post, I got more to cover with you.
>>
>>1305404
(Continued)
Here's what I think you need to do:
* For the rest of the Spring and Summer, work on building your basic endurance. Everything else is built on top of that. You need to be able to ride at least 50-60 miles without getting fatigued. I highly recommend long rides a Tempo intensity for building aerobic endurance.
* You can try building more strength in the gym, but only so long as it doesn't interfere with riding.
* You can do Force training on the bike instead of gym work if you want. I'll detail these below this section
* You can *try* adding Muscular Endurance Intervals. Everyone needs to build Muscular Endurance.
* You can *try* adding Anaerobic Intervals. These will raise your VO2max. See CTB about these too. Don't kill yourself off with them.
* Ride outside as much as possible. Go on fast group rides weekly. If you feel up to working hard, do so; if you feel fatigued, back off and just ride along. This is also some Anaerobic training, but it's also race-like group riding, experience you'll want.

To do Force training on-bike:
Pick a short hill around 5-6% grade. Pick gearing that will allow you to mash at 50rpm as hard as you can up that short hill.
Ride up the hill, hard as you can *seated* (not standing) for 15-20 rotations of the cranks at 50rpm.
Roll back down to the bottom of the hill, ride around easy on the flat for a couple minutes, then do it again.
Do this 3-5 times.
This isn't as effective as gym training but it's better than nothing if you'd rather ride.
(before anyone says it: this is different than the 'on-bike Force training' that Friel has in CTB 5th Edition. This is my variation on it.)

Above all else stay consistent in your training, consistency over time yields the best results.
>>
>>1305404
my max HR is about 186, yes, that's just the heart rate for that corresponding workout

you realize you're replying to two different people right?
>>1305408
who is this meant for?
>>
>>1305422
>who is this meant for?
For: >>1305324
>>
>>1305375
I use trainerroad about 3-4 times per week, otherwise I’m doing early morning group rides during the work week and always doing group rides or races on the weekend if the weather isn’t absolutely awful. In my opinion it’s a lot easier to do long intervals on the trainer because you don’t have stuff like traffic or stoplights to worry about so you can sit and grind away for 30 minutes on end. I definitely think the convenience of a trainer has helped me get stronger, and I don’t think it has at all detracted from my ability to handle a bike like other anon suggests.
>>
>>1305212
Hey 185W FTP guy, I had another thought:

What's your knee angle when at full extension? (You probably won't know unless you had your bike fitted by someone)
I used to have a coach, and he coached me for a while before ever doing an actual fitting for me himself. Finally one day we were all on a team ride, and he'd never seen me actually riding before and said to me "Why is your saddle so low?". Turned out the shop that I bought the bike from set me up with a too-comfy knee angle, not fully extending my leg enough, and it was literally robbing me of power. I went in to my coach for adjustment to the bike fit, he set me up with a 30-degree knee angle. Took a few rides to get used to but my FTP jumped by double-digit watts just from that adjustment.
If your saddle is too low you could be robbing yourself of power as well, which would explain the low FTP despite a maximal effort on your part.
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>>1305780
I've been obsessive about saddle height, I've overextended it to a point where it messed up my stroke and felt like I was reaching, lowered it back down a bit, lowered it a bit more so I could move my hips a bit further back on the saddle (which I moved forward, the hip move was to position my sit bones better), I have been playing with it up and down a bit since I've started cycling so I think I'm at a good point. Also just got a lezyne gps.

I tried again last night and found that I could get above 200 on the last half if I upped my cadence. Got 197 for the 20 minutes. Also I had my fan turned up and had a jersey on, I think I overheated on the first try, as well as not enough warm up. I think I could do 210 or 220 since I wasn't out of gas at the end. I'll keep trying for higher and higher.
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>>1305782
>243 rpm
bro something ain’t right
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>>1305784
Im getting weird spikes.

Might be a lezyne issue as I didn't have the spikes when recording with wahoo fitness app. I haven't updated it yet though.
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>>1305782
..okay,

1. I want you to do this sort of test *outside*. Somwhere flat-to-rolling (preferably as flat as possible), no controlled intersections, and little traffic.
2. Your cadence during this test should be in the 90-100rpm range.
3. No heavy gym training or hard riding for 48 hours before the test. In fact the best time to do a test like this is at the end of an Active Recovery week, where your overall volume is reduced, similar to how you'd structure a race week. In fact think of it precisely like you're doing an actual TT on a Saturday, because you *are*.

If you do not already do so, I want you to *warm up* before the test. Here's what I do to warm up:
* About 20 minutes of 'just riding' at a basic endurance intensity (i.e. z2) and 90-100rpm cadence
* Fast spinning: Go to your small chainring and largest cog, and on the flat spin the cranks as fast as you can maintain for 1 minute. Wait a minute between and do it again. Repeat this 2-3 times.
* Two 1-minute intervals at your max sustainable power, 90-100rpm cadence, with 2 minutes between
* 5 minutes spinning easy
Then go to your start point and start your 20-minute TT power test.

Note this is what *I* do to warm up for something like this; if you have something similar you're used to doing, you can do that. But you see the point to it, right? You can't produce your full power before you're properly warmed up.

Also again: do this *outside*. I think you'll perform better, be more motivated, if you can ride outside on the road rather than sitting on a trainer. Try it.
>>
>>1305782
>>1305810
Oh and by the way, if during the 1-minute 'fast spin' intervals during warmup, you find you're bouncing all over the saddle at >=100rpm, then we've found another source of wasted power: inefficient pedaling due to antagonistic muscle firing patterns. If you have this problem you need to work on your pedaling mechanics; you should be able to spin at 120rpm or higher smoothly.

Also by the way these 'fast spin' intervals need to be greater than 100rpm, and in fact if you can't spin at 120rpm or higher for 1 minute, then there's something else going on there, too.
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>>1305811
How to train it though? Single leg pedalling drills? Fixie riding?
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>>1305832
Several ways.
* 'Single-leg pedaling': unclip one leg and pedal slow with the other in your small chainring and biggest cog. Start out at 30 seconds per leg and work your way up to 1 minute or more per leg, switch legs several times.
The goal here is not to produce power, but to turn the cranks *smoothly* through the entire rotation with one leg.
Do this at some point in every ride.

* 'Endurance pedaling': during any basic aerobic endurance (z2) ride, shift to a larger cog while maintaining the same power and road speed, raising your cadence by about 10rpm (or more; don't over-do it). Maintain for several minutes. Concentrate on smoothly turning the cranks through their entire rotation, and no bouncing in the saddle. Do this several times during the same ride with some time pedaling at your normal cadence between. Over weeks increase the time per 'interval' of Endurance Pedaling; you may even at some point spend an entire ride at the higher cadence. You may do this on as many rides per week as you like (and if you need it I encourage you to do so).

If you succeed at improving your pedaling mechanics, what you'll likely find over time is that your 'self-selected cadence' (the cadence you normally feel most comfortable and efficient at) will go up.

If your 'normal' cadence is below 80rpm, then you need to work on this. 80-90rpm is okay. 90-100rpm is excellent.
The more efficient you are at higher cadences, the less energy you waste, therefore the less fatigued overall you'll be.
For road racing doing whatever you can to limit fatigue while still getting the job done makes you that much more likely to be successful, but even for just recreational riding it improves performance and therefore your enjoyment. Ride longer, faster.
>>
>>1305832
>Fixie riding?
Forgot to address that.
Yeah, riding a fixed-gear bike would force you to improve your pedaling mechanics to a certain extent, but mostly what it'll do is get you used to the idea of pedaling continuously, which isn't a bad thing at all; you stop pedaling on a FG bike and you'll find yourself over the handlebars and on the ground.
>>
Hey guys,
There's this faggot in another thread who's whining and complaining about losing the one Cat-5 road race he's done because it had an uphill finish and he erroneously thinks they should never have uphill finishes, ever.
He's a total faggot, right? You guys would never whine about shit like that, right?
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>>1305896
I’m a big guy and love the one race around here with an uphill finish. It means there’s no expectation for me to podium so I get to spend all race working for the manlets on my team. That’s way more fun to me than sitting on my hands for an hour and a half just to wait for a field sprint.
>>
>>1305898
Hey man, there's nothing at all wrong with being the domestique for other guys on your team or even your buddies if you know it's Not Your Race. Look at how many riders there are in TdF and the other big pro races, and that's their job: to get their teammate over the line first.
You got a good attitude, Anon, I'd have you on my team any day. :-)
>>
someone call me a faggot and tell me to go ride before this storm hits
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>>1306014
Where are you? Zipcode? I want to see what your weather forecast looks like.
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>>1306014
ride after the storm hits you pussy
>>
Where do you guys watch pro races? When's the next big one?
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>>1306073
Eurosport. Today slightly smaller races with both Volta a Catalunya and E3 BincBank Classic. Gent - Wevelgem on Sunday.
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>>1306083
y doesn't Urosport play the ladies racing?
been waiting all week and its just lycra sausage
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>>1306094
nm, Ladies Bruge is on in an hour.

>getting tissues and lotion
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>>1306083
Where do you watch for FREE
>>
>>1306113
tiz cycling if it's still alive
>>
Hey 185W FTP guy, you still around? I posted some things I'm waiting for you to respond to.
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Didnt do much of training since nov., got a surpirsingly good form in Feb from more or less just some Intervals, beating even some Pbs. so, my form was okay.
Now, im nowhere.
I do races, but just 1-2 hours of XC. Last race, I was even in the top10% after the climbs. My plan is to do some 2-3 hours rides and then some biiig 10h ride. in may i want to quit the boring base-stuff and do more anaerobic fun-stuff. Races start in mid-june
good plan?
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>>1306812
You need to mix in threshold work at mid-cadence (~75rpm) not just anaerobic or you'll get dropped on long climbs
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>>1304558
Been an incredibly busy week, so apologies for the delay. Thanks for looking into this.

This is in Zwift, note.
If I remember correctly, this test has a warm up with some threshold bits, the actual test starts at the 20 minute mark.

I do think I could've done quite a bit better now, but certainly still below 200 FTP.
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>>1307198
Do the test *OUTSIDE*. No trainer!
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>>1307463
If only. Snow nearly up to the knees when I walked outside today,

Shouldn't a trainer be better though? Since the power would be a bit more consistent..?
I am very much convinced that being indoor vs outdoor has a considerable effect on performance, but THAT much?
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>>1307761
>Shouldn't a trainer be better though? Since the power would be a bit more consistent..?
*Not necessarily*. Many people find using a trainer indoors to be very *demotivating* because you're not actually moving.
Don't they clear the streets where you live? Isn't there some recreational trail of 5-6 miles you could use, that they clear the snow off of? Some paved indoor track? An indoor velodrome? Something?
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>>1307777
Not even him but you clearly have no understanding what winter means when you live up north
>Don't they clear the streets where you live?
Yes, but they can't get all of the snow/ice out
>Isn't there some recreational trail of 5-6 miles you could use, that they clear the snow off of?
There aren't any that are completely cleared of snow.
>Some paved indoor track? An indoor velodrome?
The closest one to me is a solid 7 hour drive away
>Something?
Trainer
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>>1307761
Your power will be lower on the trainer but honestly it’s not that big of a deal if you’re doing workouts on the trainer too with that FTP number dictating your power zones. FTP is largely overrated for usefulness in my opinion, it’s incredibly hard to judge an athlete’s entire capability by a single 20 minute effort. If you test poorly your workouts will be too easy, if you have an incredibly high anaerobic threshold your 20 minute power will overestimate your 60 minute power. Figuring out your FTP is really more trial and error in my opinion, it’s just a number for training so looking at heart rate and using perceived effort you should be able to get a grasp of whether to slightly bump your number up or down.
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>>1307818
why not just go by heart rate all the time?
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>>1307869
Because it's not accurate enough. From day-to-day, or even hour-to-hour, your heart rate for a given level of intensity can change, resulting in either training too hard, or not hard enough. Any number of things can affect heart rate: your hydration, your level of accumulated fatigue from training, allergies, overall life-stress level and so on. That's why they developed ergometers (power meters) for bicycles. Wattage is wattage. All the years spent using them shows that training with a power meter is more effective than training with just heart rate.
>>
Name my Team:
In my area you sign up for races and fondos with a team name even if you are riding solo.
Currently I am considering: Exploding Knees, Forever Shinkansen, and Ass Blast USA for team names.
Thoughts and suggestions?
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>>1308836
100% NO HOMO

The team name is written down the back of your kit, and the last O is a sun around your asshole
>>
Hey guys get a load of this guy, he's """training""" for some 2-day 190 mile ride and thinks he needs PEDs to do it:
>>1309295
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>>1309378
I need PEDs to get out of bed in the morning, STFU
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>>1309614
>Fat weak leglet
>>
At a road race yesterday (that I wasn't at) some edgelord faggot tried to pass a bunch of riders on the right, then jump his line over to literally force his way back into the pack, causing a major crash at 30mph taking out about 10 riders.
One of those riders was a Cat-2 teammate, who now has broken bones and who-knows-what-else injuries, additionally his handlebars were literally broken, and who-knows-what-else damage to his bike.
This was during the first lap of a three-lap race.
My teammate had just got finished recovering from a training accident, and now he's probably out for the rest of the season, all because some too-edgy piece of shit decided to pull some bullshit move that even a reasonable Cat-5 would know you shouldn't do.

I was reminded of a major crash I was taken out in during a road race several years ago, about a mile to the finish, where some too-edgy asshole tried basically the same shitty move coming up over a freeway overpass. He wasn't looking ahead, ran out of pavement, and jumped over on top of a bunch of us at over 25mph. Took me most of a year to fully recover from the injuries.

Why is this allowed? How do we get these edgy pieces of shit to either become competent racers or force them the fuck out of the sport entirely?
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>>1311046
Talking about racing bikes is tolerated on /n/ but I think you might want to find a different website if you're going to get this angsty about a minor mishap
>BUT HE WAS CAT 2
Ok, I'm sure that sounds really important to you
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>>1311046
Report them to the race officials for unsafe conduct and hope others do as well.
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>>1311046
Why do you think that anybody smart does CX or XC
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>>1311054
>minor mishap
One of the 10 or so who went down had to leave in an ambulance, so I wouldn't characterize this as a 'minor mishap', bugger off.
>racing bikes is tolerated on /n/
Are you a moderator or site administrator? If not then it's not up to you to decide what is and is not 'tolerated' here, you're out of line.

>>1311059
That's in the works. They're trying to get video of the race and witnesses to confirm what actually happened.
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>>1311064
Just for you I'm going to sign up for the nearest bike race and cause a crash
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>>1311069
You’re required to wear a helmet, be sure to dig one out of the trash before you get your one day license
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>>1311069
You're that """fringie""" poster, aren't you? Why don't you just fuck off? Haven't you had enough of being banned for your low-quality and flame posts?
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>>1311070
Wow I didn't know they had one-day licenses for Cat-6's. xD
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>>1311119
Yes, you keep calling people who choose not to own a cage “fringie”. I often wondered why you were even on this board, and now you made it clear. You think cycling is a sport to be done on a closed course.

It would be best if you took these threads to /asp/ as they are not transportation related
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>>1311060
based and cross pilled
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>>1311198
/asp/ is the wrestling board tardo
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>>1311069
>>1311198
Quit shitting up our thread with your OFFTOPIC and LOW QUALITY posts.
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>>1311198
wtf are you even talking about? You're the fringie dude, its as plain as the nose on your face. Stop with the false flag.
>>
Bump
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>>1311331
Yeah, this time last year you were calling me nikolasv. Get it through your head: s-works freds are here as guests, nothing more. This isn't your board.
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>>1311202
this is correct
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>>1304366

Those numbers seem waaaay waaaaay too low, there's either something wrong with both your trainer and powermeter or you have some kind of health problems. For reference some time ago I took my brother with me (about 76 kg at 183 cm, doesn't really do any sports aside from hiking and running once every blue moon) on a 30ish km ride because we wanted to see how well an untrained rider does watts wise and his average wattage on my road bike with 2 month old power2max powermeter was 193 watts at 139 BPM average heartrate, we were going very steady on less than 150m elevation gain over the course.

My brother is completely untrained, you should really be able to do way better since you're riding a lot actually, you should definitely get your blood checked mate, there has to be something that's holding you back big time. I hope you figure it out or improve nevertheless, best of luck

>>1304557
I don't really agree with that though. One of my co-workers has been riding for 2 years now and never even rode more than 5-6 hours a week, I'm 100% serious on that. He's been uploading to strava and riding with a powermeter from day 1 and his FTP is 3.98 w/kg at a 60 minute test, done last sunday and he's been winning crits last season. His training isn't really all too structured either.

Big milage is obviously important when you're riding (racing) for long hours but there are no races that go on for longer than 1.5 or 2h in our area so consistant short rides work out.

Of course, structured training 10-15h / week beats structured training 5-6h / week.
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>>1306751
Sorry, I thought I responded to everything, what were you waiting for?

I went outside with my power meter and 200 watts did feel ridiculously easy compared to on the trainer, holy crap, will test outside soon. I feel like I can push at least 250-260.
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>>1312883
Your PM numbers sound high
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>>1304366
Are you fat or chubby? Body fat will throw off w/kg ratios since those are assumed to be at low body fat. Fat won’t improve your watts obviously. FTP is a hard effort, not an easy effort, so yours is closer to 180w. People who tend to submit their own power figures tend to be people that buy one for structured training, are serious about racing, and people who are confident in their watts to make it public.
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>>1312918
195 watt average power for 19 miles is nothing to suggest the power meter is broken. My sweet spot intervals are 305-320w and my heart rate is usually between 134-140 bpm for those.
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>>1312922
Being off doesn’t mean broken. It’s well known that PM can vary in excess of 10% between units of the same model even.
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>>1312928
Don’t change the subject. 195 watts for 19 miles (assuming ~1 hour) is not indicative of any problems.
>>
Is there a budget way of checking cadence and power without spending over €500 for a powermeter?
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>>1312933
From an untrained cyclist at 140bpm, sure it is, unless he’s a boomer. You tried to move the goalposts to your PM being broken boomer.
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>>1312942
My threshold HR is 152 bpm and my max is 172. I’m 28 years old. I’m not sure why you think heart rate is a cut and dry indicator of effort when you have a single data point to work with. Why are you calling me a boomer?
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>>1312937
Non-direct force pms (lame af) + cadence sensor
Smart trainers + cadence sensor
Powertap c1 and power2max ngeco WITH FSA 24mm spindle crank i.e. throw it in hollowtech II BB are both less than €500, both good options
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>>1312944
I don't know why you're pretending those numbers are normal for an untrained cyclist. They're abnormal because either your PM/HRM is producing abnormal results, or your untrained cyclist brother is abnormal in physiology. You're the one implying the numbers are cut and dry and using your brother as a benchmark for anon.
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>>1312958
I'm not that anon dingus.
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>>1312967
Then why are you responding as if you were? Of course there's nothing fucking abnormal with a PM reading 195 without the additional context you retarded dumbfuck. Why would you even feel compelled to say that?
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>>1312975
man you just got really mad.
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>>1312984
>calling people names is being mad on 4chan
How's reddit treating you?
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>>1312986
how’s a 270w ftp treating you?
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>>1312870
>low-quality post
Anon, you need to post on-topic, high-quality posts, not flames or trolling outside of /b/, or low-quality posts.
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>>1312883
Listen: you can't compare yourself to your co-worker or what your co-worker does for 'training', it does not work that way, training is *INDIVIDUALIZED*, not one-size-fits-all. What works for him has nothing to do with *you*. He could have the natural VO2max like an Alaskan sled dog, like Lance did, for all you know, meanwhile your VO2max is only average. He could handle Threshold intervals several times a week while you're struggling to finish a power test. You can't compare like that.

>>1312914
>I went outside with my power meter and 200 watts did feel ridiculously easy compared to on the trainer
Told you so. :-)

>>1312928
>PM can vary in excess of 10% between units of the same model
Not if they're high quality and not some Chinese knock-offs. Powertap, Quarq, SRM, they pride themselves on accuracy, that's what you pay for. Something like Stages? Who knows.

>>1312937
Cadence, yes.
Power? Absolutely not. Actual power meter or nothing. You can't 'estimate' it in any rational way.

>>1312986
>>1313064
That'll be quite enough of that out of the two of you. If we're having identity-of-commentor problems then maybe we need to start using names and tripcodes -- or perhaps you can both just chill out and be civilized.
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>>1313099
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>>1313064
Fine actually. I quit racing after a bad injury, and 270w is plenty for riding for recreation and with the fact club group.
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>>1313109
That's a small sample size but you still proved my point for me. Also if an SRM (which costs at least $3000US) isn't accurate enough for you then nothing is.
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>>1313195
How does that prove your point at all? It doesn't. PMs are precise, not accurate.
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>>1313810
I said something like 'Stages' wasn't going to be very accurate and your chart proves that point.

Otherwise your 'chart' despite the apparently small sample size shows that devices like PowerTap SRM and Quarq perform according to manufacturer's specifications. Furthermore they're very effective training tools so any complaints about 'accuracy' are entirely moot so far as I'm concerned. They're better tools than heart rate monitors or the venerable '''just ride''' training methods, if you care about maximizing your performance.
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>>1312954
Thank you, i'll look into it!
>>
I just cant seem to improve my ftp. When I started cycling 3 years ago my ftp basically stabilized after a couple of weeks and ever since, it just has not improved. I have definitely improved in terms of feeling fresher on longer rides and in recovering from short explosive efforts, but if I look at my average power over a ride it just remains exactly the same. I ride a lot, and it just doesnt improve. What the fuck am I doing wrong?
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>>1313953
Are you using a power meter? I ask because you mention you knew your FTP after a few weeks of starting into cycling, most people don't have a PM that soon. Because if you're looking at Strava's estimated power then that is an easy fix.
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>>1313959
I bought one after a year of riding or so. But by comparing my average speeds on my usual routes, which I must have done like 50 times, I can safely say that my power output has been level since well before getting the power meter.
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>>1313960
Are you following any sort of structured training plan or just going out and riding?
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>>1313963
Just going and riding, but I do ride about 50/50 road and mtb, mtb being the much more explosive efforts and road being more consistent efforts. I usually do a long ride (3-5 hours) on the sunday and short fast rides (1-2 hours) on weekdays after work, usually 4-5 rides a week in spring/summer and 1-2 in winter. I also ride my town bike to work every day, which is about 12km a day at a slow pace.

So even though its not structured, I think it is quite varied and therefore should be good right?
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>>1313969
The one thing that could be wrong is that my road/mtb rides are ALWAYS at very high intensity, so my only "slow" riding is the commute.
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>>1313969
Are you tracking TSS? Coaches use interval training because it works, some people get stronger without it but it sounds like you are not. I am not going to tell you how to set up a training plan because that is something I am still learning myself through trial and error in my second year of training, and what seems to be working for me might not work for you.
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>>1313973
No, I dont even know what that is lel
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>>1313975
What are you using to track your ride data?
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>>1313978
strava
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>>1313979
Strava sucks imo, what head unit aka computer do you use?
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>>1313980
I use a Mio 505

Strava is fine, the phone app is a bit shit but on the PC it allows you to look at your data quite well. I only collect power/speed/gps data anyway so it works fine.
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>>1313982
Strava's numbers for TSS (training load), IF (intensity) and normalized power (weighted average power) are calculated differently the real things. It also does not track your TSS by a weekly basis which is so dumb. Since you don't even know what TSS is I recommend buying Joe Friel's book and starting from there if you really want to improve. Serious structured training can suck, so if you really don't have any goals you're working towards I really can't recommend it. It sucks a lot of the fun out of daily riding sometimes.
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>>1313986
the elevate/stravistix browser add-on does that stuff a bit more seriously
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>>1313988
ah maybe I should get that. I also need to do a proper 20 min test to properly see my FTP. Right now im going off some data from my holiday to Switzerland last year, but those were all much longer than 20 min efforts, and also the altitude and the forced low cadence with the high gradients really screwed with my power output. Here in the slightly hilly flatlands my power output is all over the place and its hard to judge with that kind of data. I did average 320watts over 20 minute on a Strava segment to beat one of my mates, but that segment had a steep cobbled climb and a couple of descents and was also far from consistent in terms of power output.
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>>1313969
>So even though its not structured, I think it is quite varied and therefore should be good right?
Not so much.
What you're describing is the '''time honored''' (said with some sarcasm) '''Just Ride''' training methodology.
The reason good racers don't use that anymore is because *it really doesn't work*.
You might feel like you got a good workout on a Fast Group Ride, and you did, but it's not *targeted* training, it's just very general; on a FGR you spend most of your time in Z2 (long endurance), with some Anaerobic efforts (sprints, surges, and so on) and maybe a little Threshold (medium to long climbs).
If your training is structured, you do Interval work at Threshold (i.e. the zone surrounding your FTP) to improve it and and your muscular endurance.
You also do structured Anaerobic Interval work which raises your VO2max, which in turn helps raise your FTP over time.

You also do regular *testing* to re-define what your FTP is, to track progress; if it goes up, great, if it's the same or goes *down* after a training block, then you know what you're doing isn't helping.

Riders that '''just ride''' all the time tend to plateau at some medium level and never improve beyond it, like you're experiencing.
With structured, periodized training, you may be slow during the off-season, but when you reach your peak for the year, it's a higher level of fitness than what you'd otherwise experience.

You can get an old copy of The Cyclists Training Bible here: http://lronman.ru/docs/CyclistBible3.pdf
Take the time to read that, it explains things better than I have time and space to explain it all here.
You can break through your FTP 'plateau' but you'll have to make changes to how you do things to get there.
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>>1313994
You don't need to do a full 20-minute TT to test your FTP, there are shorter tests that are just as accurate. Look for the test Chris Carmichael uses for his 'Time Crunched Cyclist' training plan, it's 2 8-minute all-out intervals with a specific warm-up routine.
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>>1313979
What Strava is good for, is to allow you to gauge your level of fitness on various segments versus other riders in your area. For instance if there is a long climb that other racers in your area use for training, where you are on the leaderboard for that climb in a given month versus other riders you know you race against, gives you an idea how you stack up against them.
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>>1314064
>on a FGR you spend most of your time in Z2 (long endurance), with some Anaerobic efforts (sprints, surges, and so on) and maybe a little Threshold (medium to long climbs)
help my group rides are broken
>>
>>1314133
If that's a race-like FGR then that looks about right.
All of those zone times are *total for the ride*, they're not *long Threshold intervals*, or *long Anaerobic intervals*, they're surges and sprints.
You won't build fitness in specific areas doing just that as well as you would doing structured training that includes intervals.
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>>1314068
it's also good for an ego boost when you're one of the top guys on popular segments
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>>1314163
Of course I don’t spend 9 minutes straight at 500 watts homegirl. Fast group rides like the one I posted are just as important as structured interval workouts in my opinion. Unless you’re blessed with a nearby weekly practice crit you’ll only learn how to race in races, which in my opinion is a huge waste of money if you’re going to be spending $20-30 just to make rookie errors the whole time. You also learn who the fast guys in your area are and what type of riders they are by joining those groups.
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>>1314133
>tfw there are no group rides of any kind in my area
>no cycling club in a 50 km radius either

I only ever rode once with other people outside of a race. Well I tried riding with a small triathlete group once as my city has a triathlon club but they were all really casual and while they were friendly it was pretty damn boring. I even offered to pull the whole time but the pace would've been too fast for them so they passed.
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>>1314177
Sure, FGRs have an important place in any training plan, but my point is if that's *all* you ever do is FGRs, you don't get an opportunity to work on the areas of your fitness where you need improvement.
Once or twice a week is fine for FGRs so long as you're getting in the solo rides you need to improve in the ways you need to improve, right? I think we're on the same page.
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>>1314182
>I think we're on the same page.
I think we are too. I also think a lot of people are really focused on getting strong and that getting smart is often overlooked. I might have a 340w FTP but I still don't win races because I'm dumb as a rock.
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>>1314180
>be in cycling club
>group rides start at 7 am on weekends
>start point at the other side of town
What the fuck is wrong with them and why do they want to go riding so fucking early? There's all day to use and they gotta wake up at sunrise. It's not even because the days get hot because I'm so far north that the comfiest time for riding is during the day.
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>>1314193
Could be traffic. One of my favorite group rides in my town is on Tuesday/Thursdays and starts at 5am. Riding those roads after normal work hours is near impossible.
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>>1314192
If I've learned anything it's that the athletic part of this game is the easy part, and learning how to *race* is the hard part, because there's no amount of books you can read or videos you can watch that will teach you everything you need to know, you actually have to *race* to learn how to *race*. 'Go faster than everyone else' only works in a TT, in a road race of any kind there's many variables.
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>>1314193
People have other things to do on weekends so why make a group ride in the middle of the day?
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>>1314205
>only works in a TT
don't get me started on those either, this week I averaged 15 watts higher than my friend who weighs about the same as me, but he averaged 1.1 mph faster. He carried speed a lot better through the 5 turns and probably has his fit dialed in way better than I do.
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>>1314193
7 am isn't early... Sun comes up at 5.
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>>1314193
iktf

It was fine when I could take fridays off but now werking 5 days a week I have 0 energy or will to get up at 5am
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>>1314193
buncha reasons
>have other shit to do that day
>before it gets hot
>before there are 10 million half-asleep fuckwits out on the road doing errands
>sleeping in is degenerate
>>1314211
aeroaeroaeroaeroaero
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>>1313847
Do you not understand p values or how to read a graph?
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>>1315337
Do you not understand that nobody really gives a shit, you get what you pay for, and the overall quality of training for any cyclist that uses a power meter goes way way up? You can be insufferably pedantic all you want about this but it changes nothing, you benefit by using a power meter over other methods, all the science supports this, all the anecdotal data supports this, and every pro cycling coach on the planet supports this. If you choose to not use one that's your choice and really nobody cares whether you do or not, so I don't see a point in continuing to argue about this.
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>watch Paris roubaix highlights
>2nd place pulls 1st place to finish line, of course gets outsprinted when they get there

I don't understand, he knew he was pulling his opponent the entire ending stretch, is it that hard to swoop to the side and brake suddenly? Or is it an illegal move? Or maybe just slow down and threaten the success of both cyclists if the wheelsucker doesn't want to pass? I know there's threat of letting other people catch up but they seemed like they had a good gap. Did he just accept that he was going to get 2nd rather than risk not even getting podium?
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>>1317503
The German was a former track cyclist. He stayed in front cause he's more experienced at riding while looking back to see an attack early.
The Belgian wasn't a track cyclist. He outwitted the German by using a technique in the sprint (basically cutting the corner and using the gradient in the track for acceleration) that's illegal on track, but not in road races.
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>>1317508
So you think had the Belgian not used that move the German would have outsprinted him at the finish? Or at least thats what the German was thinking?
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>>1317553
The German thought he had the advantage at the finish cause he has experience riding on a track, with all the tactics that track riders use to position themselves and the timing to start the sprint. He's also a very strong sprinter, and much younger.
That's why the Belgian's finishing move was genius, it used that track riding experience against him.
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>>1317503
You do *NOT* change your line when sprinting.
You also do *NOT* """swoop to the side and brake suddenly""", especially during a sprint. Those are dick moves that will get you DQ'd, if not suspended.
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I want to do 2 sessions on the trainer during the week and have fun on the weekend riding my bike.

Can you recommend me some nice effective sessions (let's say 45 minutes). I don't want to race, just be fit to do some nice ride on the weekend, and also having some sort of objective keeps me motivated.

As for my current fitness, strava tells me I've riden 4k the last 2 years and I've tested at 220 ftp on my trainer (weight is 74kg)
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>>1317820
browse through ergdb.org
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>>1315509
Why do you keep trying to change the argument. All that was being asserted that power readings from one user often differ from power readings of another user.

All you've done is go full autismo and trying to strawman and move goalposts.
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>>1317823
I'm saying your argument is *pointless*. They are what they are. Use one or don't.
>autismo
You're the one posting graphs and whatnot.
I'm the one saying "they're good" and leaving it at that.
Why are you even arguing with anyone about it?
Use one or don't, nobody really cares.



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