genius or charlatan?
>>86501328Faggot unmusical piece of shit. Even his mentor (who was Schoenberg) BTFO his musical ambitions and he just went ahead and said "fuck it, I'll make music in my own shitty way without harmony or melody or anything that makes music good." So he's basically your average /prod/ poster.
>>86501328Genius, but a bit of a provocateur. A lot of his later work pointed to push the limits of how music and arts are concieved, rather than a more 'straight forward' creation, more or less in the same fashion Duchamp did. His writings, ideas and interviews, as well as his collaborations with Merce Cunningham prove he did know what he was doing, while his earlier works (check out Early Piano Music, by Herbert Henck if you haven't) and his music for prepared piano are a testimony of his talents as a more 'traditional' composer.
>>86501328He's okay and I like his bff Morton Feldman even better, but whenever I listen to some Webern all that American postwar shit just seems obsolete in comparison
>>86501385he was an artist and philosopher using musical conventions as his media
>>86501602Okay, yes we can agree he was a pretentious asshole.
>>86501563Please tell me you're not the Webern frogposter. If you think those guys are "okay" than you've officially become everything you hate.
>>86501632No. It isn't pretentious as there was a reason for his work. I bet you're one of those farmers who get offended by a Rothko.
>>86501650He's not me, Fuck you for confusing me with this garbagePic related i just made a Cage masterpieceNow to all in this thread listen to Webernhttps://youtu.be/HwX7jPdFsD4Long live WebernKys avant-teens you will never understand Webern no matter how much you pretend to like it
>>86501650I'm unware of said frogposter but now I'm really curious. Does he post outside the general? What kind of shit does he talk? I'm a huge sperg for Webern but have never been able to get anyone to discuss his works on /mu/.
>>86501910Whats your favorite Webern piece bro?Mine is Op18
>>86501687he was a prankster and you fell of his intellectual counterfeit money
>>86501563>>86501650>>86501910>>86501801Holy shit, that's him!Hey, asshole. They're both great but op. 6 is better than op. 10. Also, what's your favorite lieder and do you prefer the 5 movements or the 6 bagatelles?
>>86501563>>86501650>>86501801>>86501910>>86502018>>86502055Woah I’ve never heard of this Webern guy, but I’m really liking this piece you shared. What other stuff of his should I listen to?
>>86501328I really enjoy his early works and his time-duration works. I wish he would have focused on pure music rather than the theatrics, but he didn’t.
>>86502018Changes so often because his quality control was the best of all time imo. Frequent favorites are Entflieht auf Liechten Kahnen, 5 Lieder (both op. 3 and 4), 4 Pieces for Violin and Piano, 3 Little Pieces for Cello and Piano, 4 Lieder (both op. 12 and 13 but especially 12), and op. 19 which might be my #1 favorite.18 is one of the most difficult imo. Guitar/Clarinet/Soprano is a jarring arrangement. Still superb.
>>86502106https://youtu.be/Xq2gwuKDPnYJust go in chronological orderOp1 to Op31He was a perfectionist so you can go wrong His style is really condensed so most of his pieces are in the 3min to 10min range
>>86501563>>86501650>>86501801>>86501910>>86502018>>86502055>>86502106>>86502226THIS IS NOW A WEBERN THREAD
>>86502055>>86502226I prefer 5 Movements to 6 BagatellesAnd the hardest works for me are Op22 and Op27
>>86501328Neither. He’s a conceptual artist, and often he’d run with whatever concept he had even if it was shit. Take this track of his for instancehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yQPsubxBVkThe vocal part is well written, so he’s clearly no dummy. But you hear that horrible banging sound in the background? That’s because the score commands its played on a closed piano. That might be an interesting concept, but he should have said “this sounds like shit I’m changing it” as soon as he heard it. He’s not intentionally tricking people, so I wouldn’t call him a charlatan (especially cause he’s clearly got some smarts) but he’s no genius by any measure. He’s in the middle I guess
>>86502348If 22 is the quartet with tenor sax, then I adore that one. For some reason I frequently confuse that one for the concerto when it comes to the numbers.The 6 Lieder have really been climbing up the rankings in my book lately. Bass clarinet is my very favorite instrument and a big part of why op. 19 hits me so hard.
>>86502239can't go wrong**
>>86502348Also, do you prefer the string trio or the quartet (op. 28)? For me, it's the trio.
>>86502474https://youtu.be/lF-lLy09pZoCheck this composer who was influenced by Webern>>86502556String Trio all the way it just has something man, everyone who knows Webern talks about that piece like it is the second comingAlso it seems like you like more the Free atonalism phase of Webern than the Serialism phase (Op20-31)I'm wrong?
>>86501328Both and none, he was just a shitposter it was fun while it lasted BUT we shouldn't even remember him now, he should be forgotten.
>>86502621Great rec, thank you. It's hard to say which period I prefer most because it changes so often depending on what I'm listening to most during any given month. There have been times when I was convinced his Lieder phase was the best and times where I was highest on the 12-tone, but in general I'd say his pre-WW1 material gets the most plays from me. Again, I believe he had the tightest quality control of any composer who ever lived so even my least favorite of his works are still immaculate to me.
>>86501328>Let's throw a bucket of scrap nails, screws, clothespins, gum, and a bunch of other shit into a piano and then randomly hit keys and call it a composition>most famous song is 4 minutes and 33 seconds of nothing but silenceyeah... total genius...
This thread is not very good. The songs being posted are pretty good but its just used to turn this into a dick measuring contest which I think is not a very tasteful way of discurs. I think Webern would have nothing but appreciation for Cage and to somehow pit them up against each other is something only a frogposter would do.
>>86504940>I think Webern would have nothing but appreciation for CageWebern did not considered his music avant-garde or "" le experimental muzak""' He was actually conservative af Please dont talk about Webern if you dont know enough If the Frogposting bothers you, well you are in 4channel.
>>86504999Checked and Based Webern carrying the Austro-German tradition
>>86501328I love him. He was one of the good homosexuals.
>>86504999Dichotomies like conservative/progressive are, while useless generally, especially useless when talking about musical figures like Webern.
>>86505464"Traditional" would be the word then like Webern himself said it
Genius charlatan. Absolutely based. 4'33 only gets ripped on by actual retards.
>>86504999>>86505533but Cage also was a proponent of tradition, it's just that in his case it was American tradition following the achievements of Ives, whose compositions were deeply rooted in European tradition anyway. there's no incompatibility here
>>86505923Well thats says alot about American traditionThe second viennese school(Schoenberg) rejected Cage as the first post in this thread says
>>86505990>(Schoenberg) rejected Cage as the first post in this thread saysno he didnt. he said Cage was an amazing artist and theoretician but didnt think he was a great musician in a traditional sense. cage agreed his work was always more about the ideas
>>86506022>cage agreed his work was always more about the ideasThe opposite of the Second Viennese School
>>86501328did you just learn this word today? be honest
>>86504724This>>86504940>I think Webern would have nothing but appreciation for CageKek, avant teens actually believe this.
>>86501385>harmony or melody or anything that makes music goodHello dad
>>86504776>not realizing it’s 4 and a half minutes of rest in 4/4 in tempo and the point is to show the musicianship of the “performer”.AAAAAAAAAAAA
his ideas were extremely important even if a lot of his music wasn’t ‘good’. he was also one of the first people to advocate for the use of electronics in music
He composed music besides 4'33. I think people are genuinely unaware of this fact.Anyways, I'm not a fan but none of my favorite music would exist without him. Contemporaries of his style owe him a lot of credit.
>>86509457>He composed music besides 4'33You're mistaken, nether 4'33 nor anything else he composed is music.
>>86509876>I define what is and isn't musicYour opinion on John Cage means less than nothing.
>>86509901>John Cage means less than nothing.ftfy
>>86509457I know that, but like I said earlier. It's all concept art. I posted about him here >>86502463He's more a concept artist than a musician. Stuff like using closed pianos doesn't sound good at all, nor is it particularly innovative. It's just a weird concept
>>86511038>It's just a weird conceptThat's the point. He was coming from an environment that he felt was too concerned with its own consideration as music.
>>86502045his ideas are innate and they were just waiting to be articulated and they were probably the most influential ideas of the 20th century. probably one of the greatest music theorists of all time.
>>86511127That may be the point, but that just makes him more of a concept artist than a musician