[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vm / vmg / vr / vrpg / vst / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / pw / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / vt / wsg / wsr / x / xs] [Settings] [Search] [Mobile] [Home]
Board
Settings Mobile Home
/m/ - Mecha

Name
Spoiler?[]
Options
Comment
Verification
4chan Pass users can bypass this verification. [Learn More] [Login]
File[]
  • Please read the Rules and FAQ before posting.
  • There are 44 posters in this thread.

08/21/20New boards added: /vrpg/, /vmg/, /vst/ and /vm/
05/04/17New trial board added: /bant/ - International/Random
10/04/16New board for 4chan Pass users: /vip/ - Very Important Posts
[Hide] [Show All]


Happy 19th Birthday 4chan!



The start of the one year war just seemed absolutely horrendous. You had colonies being destroyed with nukes, beams and chemical weapons. Mobile Suits decimating the Federation Space Forces. What was the state of the federation fleet before the one year war? We’re they poorly trained and that added to the slaughter?
>>
>>21146823
The federation forces have never seen combat before this. The various fleets were garrison forces assigned to protect the sides and patrol fleets. The enlisted were apparently treated very poorly, while most of the upper ranks were just seeking out promotions and power within the system. You had a few exceptions to this (General Revil). The tactics and philosophy of the federation space forces couldn’t adapt to the new type of warfare that Zeon had unleashed. I’m sure the initial battles were utterly incomprehensible to the EFSF.
>>
>>21146823
Nukes weren’t used stupid not cannon and gay
>>
>>21146848
How were they not used?
>MS-06C Zaku II had radiation shielding for nuclear warfare
>many supplemental materials stated Zeon used nukes fired from Zakus
>The special edition video from 08th MS Team specifically stated that Side 1 burned in a “nuclear hellfire” right after the declaration of wars
Even if they didn’t, why would it matter? The war was cataclysmic.
>>
>>21146823
>Side 1 Zahn
Destroyed
>Side 2 Hatte
Destroyed and Island Iffish used for operation British to drop a colony
>Side 3 Munzo (Zeon)
Based beyond all belief
>Side 4 Moore (Mua)
BTFOd
>Side 5 Loum
site of the cataclysmic battle of Loum where Zeon was attempting another colony drop, but was stopped by the feds, at the cost of losing most of their fleet and Side 5. Zeon also suffered loses that put the war in a stalemate.
>Side 6
Neutral. Declared neutrality after damage to some of the banchis or untouched depending on source material
>Side 7 Noa
One colony that was almost destroyed
>Lunar cities (Von Braun and Granada)
Neutral (Granada is Kycilia’s HQ)
>>
>>21146888
How does the war continue after this? Every person alive should have lost someone with that much death. Ridiculous.
>>
>>21146823
Yeah apparently the one week war was the most devastating proportion of the conflict the point they had to put together the Antarctic treaty to slow the fuck down
>>
>>21146909
So plenty of people who want to lash out in revenge to cope with the grief.
>>
>>21146909
The war continues because of Revil’s speech (and some of the EF still want to fight). Zeon also lost many ships, MS and personal, in that initial week. The reason Zeon did the drop operation was to secure resources and take advantage of the ecological chaos from dropping a colony on the planet. ESGF lost almost the entirety of their surface navy, and many ground forces from tsunamis, storms and other factors.
>>
>>21146823
Gundam has the most grimderp backdrop
>>
>>21146823
>What was the state of the federation fleet before the one year war? We’re they poorly trained and that added to the slaughter?
On paper, the Federation military appeared to be in a really good place before the beginning of the One Year War. They just updated their fleet through the Armament Reinforcement Plan in U.C. 0070 and had by far more men, ships, guns, and resources.

The biggest reasons I can think of for their poor performance was a lack of experience and a woefully outdated tactical doctrine as this anon pointed out. >>21146842 The Federation banked heavily on having a combined arms tactics facilitated by a highly integrated command and control network. Entire fleets were expected to constantly be in communication and feed combat data to one another as well as rely on radar guided targeting systems. To a modern military analyst this is all fair and reasonable.

Unfortunately, the aforementioned lack of combat experience, as well as the Federation Brass never expecting to actually use their military to fight and preferring to using it as a big intimidating stick to keep the colonies in line, meant that they were completely blindsided by the radar jamming effects of Minovsky particles. Given that their doctrine was so heavily reliant on radio communication and radar guidance, losing those two elements the moment the shooting started would be a massive blow. Similarly, it was the lack of these two tools which pushed the mobile suit to the forefront as they were as fast and maneuverable as space fighters but carried much heavier armor and weapons allowing them to weave through uncoordinated short range point defense system.

It can be argued that the federation should have factored in Minovsky particle interference given the ubiquity in beam weapons and fusion generators, but the lumbering nature of Federation bureaucracy would marginalize any foreword thinking ideas in favor of the tried and seemingly true.
>>
>>21146857
Don't forget the Salamis had nuclear Launch tubes and Federation specific nukes. Both sides pretty much threw everything they had at eachother in the early days of the war. It was a slaughter if you were a civilian.
>>
>>21148064
Even databooks never mention the federation using nukes outside of trying to break up the colony during operation British. It was Zeon using nukes exclusively as far as the setting is concerned
>>
>>21146823
The weirdest thing of all of Gundam is the huge dissonance between the Lore of the OYW and how its shown in series.
Seriously, if Zeon's crimes were shown with details, everyone would join the Titans.
>>
>>21148082
Anon....both sides had nukes. Nuclear energy and weapons were common. It says in the databooks that Salamis ships carried nuclear missiles, and had Nuclear Launch tubes.
>>
>>21148098
It's an argument between Corruption VS Dictatorship. The Federation was incredibly corrupt, and wouldn't give fair representation to the Colonies in the Federation Congress. This created bitter resentment for Spacenoids.

Another big issue is that humanity was supposed to migrate into Space because of Environmental destruction and overcrowding. Something like 12 to 15 billion people were living on Earth. The Earth couldn't take it. So the Federation began construction of Colonies in outer space. To lure people into outer space, the Federation promised everyone that went to space: big homes, jobs for everyone, and the promise of a fresh start in huge colonies.

Except the Federation moved only about 75% (~10 billion) people off of Earth into Colonies, and then abruptly stopped the migration. Leaving around 1 to 2 billion peole on Earth. Then the Federation slowed colony construction, and left the newly constructed Colonies to fend for themselves. Only the richest and elite people got to stay on Earth to enjoy its beauty.

It was all a trick. The Federation Government wasn't migrating ALL people into space to save the Earth. Just some people.

So we had entire generations of people growing up on Colonies. These people never saw real water, oceans, animals, or other wildlife. They only knew the sterile life of the Colonies and whatever they had in their specific colony cylinder.
>>
>>21148109
Most of Zeon victims are other Spacenoids
>>
>>21148082

It's pointless to even try and argue that the Federation have basically never been painted as using nuclear weapons en masse in any lore, because people have their vision of what the early parts of the war were like and fuck what Sunrise or anyone else with actual control of the franchise has to say on it. A tiny number of references to the Federation having the capacity to use nuclear weapons exist, and those outweigh all the animation, novels, data books etc. that say the only time they used nuclear weapons was against Isle Iffish.

>>21148099

Nuclear energy, or at least nuclear fission energy, which is the kind you're almost certainly thinking of, is not common in UC and never has been. The colonies in the Sides all run exclusively on solar energy, and Minovsky fusion reactors are the only other power source given any kind of focus in the setting. Which is basically exclusively mentioned with mobile weapons. We can extrapolate that some other technology runs on it too, but nuclear fission energy has never been a common element of UC.
>>
>>21148109

> It's an argument between Corruption VS Dictatorship.

It isn't really, because the Zabis were just as corrupt as the Federation ever were. It's more bureaucracy versus autocracy (both are corrupt). Also, while there were only a relatively small number of people left on Earth once the Federation stopped emigrating people, it was only a common belief in the Sides that all those who remained were rich and elite; the reality is that, while a tiny element were, the vast majority of those left were just as poor as any of those in the colonies. Which also had their own tiny element of rich elites. Including the Zabis, and a lot of their supporters.

Additionally, of course people raised in colonies saw real water; the water in the colonies wasn't some imitation water or something. As were the animals and other wildlife. The ecology of them was cultivated, but still real. What a stupid argument. The only one that even kind of has merit is that they never saw a real ocean; which a lot of people who live on Earth never see either, regardless.
>>
>>21148123
I think you are overthinking this. There would be no reason for Zeon to sign the Antarctic Treaty if the Federation didn't use nukes.

The whole point of the Treaty was that Zeon stopped doing Colony drops, and the Federation wasn't allowed to use their massive nuclear weapons arsenal. Both sides got something out of it.

The Treaty leveled the playing field and made it equal. So Zeon felt confident enough to invade Earth without the threat of nukes. And the Federation felt confident enough they could rebuild their forces without Zeon dropping a Colony on Jaburo. A win-win.
>>
>>21148129
We have scenes in Gundam where Spacenoid troops are amazed at Earth's wildlife. And talk about never seeing animals before. So clearly whatever the colonies had completely paled in comparison to Earth.
>>
>>21148129
>The only one that even kind of has merit is that they never saw a real ocean; which a lot of people who live on Earth never see either, regardless.
As someone that lives in a country where that's basically the real definition of the poverty line, this hits hard
>>
>>21148170
>the colonies don't have wild lions and rhinos running around
no shit
>>
>>21148185
So your argument is semantics and exaggeration? Pathetic. Just stop before you derail this thread with a nonsense debate.
>>
>>21148163
>There would be no reason for Zeon to sign the Antarctic Treaty if the Federation didn't use nukes.
Sure they do. They can sign it and ignore it, which is exactly what they do. Yuri in 08th uses nukes. MQuave uses nukes. Killing under Kycillia uses nukes. Seems like anyone working for Kycillia is happy to use nukes fragrantly and the federation has no power to stop them. The Antarctic Treaty only benefits zeon. They just don't do colony drops because they don't know where Jaburo is and it's a massive use of resources to move a colony into place
>>
>>21148206
Killing wasn't under Gihren?
>>
>>21148204
the colonies do have animals, dumbass
the spacenoids were amazing at seeing liv african big game animals, you know, the shit that wouldn't just be hanging out randomly on a colony
>>
>>21148206
>happy to use nukes fragrantly
Ah, the bracing scent of fast neutrons.
>>
>>21148213
In the show he's under Kycillia and is in charge of the Cyclops Team iirc. Gundam Era has a picture of Killing's alleged suicide in front of a portrait of Gihren
>>
>>21148206
I have no idea why you're OBSESSED with the idea of the Federation *not* using nukes. It's not a big deal or game changer. What is this autism.

>The Antarctic Treaty only benefits zeon.

No it benefits both sides. The
war was escalating. Humanity was on a path to destroying itself. More than half of Humanity was already dead in the first weeks of the war.

Had the war continued without restrictions, then the next steps would be the Federation taking their massive nuclear stockpile and launching them at Side 3 to turn the Zeon colonies into space dust. And the surviving Zeon troops launching multiple colonies at Earth in revenge killing everyone on the planet.

>They just don't do colony drops because they don't know where Jaburo is

They have a general idea of Jaburo's area, but not a clear detailed picture. Dropping a Colony would make Jaburo's exact location irrelevant as it would destroy entire area regardless. It's a big AoE weapon.
>>
>>21148206
A few radicals ignored the Treaty when Zeon started losing. But the Treaty put a hard stop on everyone just shit flinging nukes at eachother without restraint.
>>
>>21148244
>I have no idea why you're OBSESSED with the idea of the Federation *not* using nukes. It's not a big deal or game changer. What is this autism.
Why are you OBSESSED with insisting they did? Neither Sunrise nor gunpla manuals nor data and setting books ever say the federation used nukes against anything other than the colony drop. That's a fact. Mark Simmons has also documented it. Stop peddling your retarded headcanon and fuck off, how about that?

>Federation taking their massive nuclear stockpile and launching them at Side 3 to turn the Zeon colonies into space dust
Only in your headcanon. Early to mid war 80% of the federation fleet was wiped out and had to rebuild mostly at Jaburo in secret. They had no opportunity to even use nukes until the very end of the war. If you think they would later in the war you're delusional since they have the Solar System and settle for an armistice with Side 3 rather than just WMDing it.

>And the surviving Zeon troops launching multiple colonies at Earth in revenge killing everyone on the planet.
No they wouldn't, because they'd have no manpower to do so. The colony drop was a shock and awe tactic. We know for a fact that Operation british cost Zeon most of its early war veterans and MS experts on top of a good chunk of MS. Lobbing the occasional nuke like they do after the treaty is far more economical.
>>
>>21148250
Mquave is the commander for Eurasia and Killing takes over as commander of Granada after openly executing the former commander, supposedly under orders from Kycillia. They're not a few radicals, they're some of the highest ranking individuals in Zeon. Yuri is a Major General and has the authority to cancel the Apsalas project. He's not a small fry either.
>>
>>21148329
Please look up the definition of the word "radical". It has nothing to do with rank or authority. A general or leader can be a radical.
>>
>>21148322
So your telling us that the Federation just let Zeon pound of them with nukes and other crazy weapons for weeks. And the Federation just let their nuclear stockpile sit at Luna 2 and did nothing. Zero retaliatory nuclear strikes. Right....sure anon. Whatecwr you say.
>>
>>21146888
>Side 4 Moore (Mua)

This is moore brotherhood from Thunderbolt right?
>>
>>21148346

According to basically every source ever, yes. You might not like it or think it makes sense, but that's what the canon is regardless.
>>
>>21148346
no no no you dont get it zeon and the federation both signed agreements to not use nukes because the federation never ever used them anyway nor would they ever use them and zeon signed away using the weapons they were happy to use casually because..........
>>
>>21148347
Yes, thunderbolt is a OYW AU, but it takes place around the Side 4 area.
>>
I'm pretty sure it's implied both sides used nukes (among other things) in the first weeks of the war. The Antartic treaty was signed AFTER the first month of the war, during which both sides lost nearly half of their population. While we remember the colony drop incident from the Zeon side, that doesn't even come close to killing off half of the Federation's citizens.

On the other hand, we don't know much about the Zeonic casualties. However Zeon lost soldiers too, and considering how we see how Zeon dominates Federation the only explanation left is that the Federation used defensive nukes.

My guess is that in desperation, the Federation used pretty much every kind of WMD in their arsenal, just like Zeon. So yeah, I'm pretty sure they did. It's never really shown or explained too well in 0079 since Tomino wants to focus on drama on white base. But for a lot of civilians life must have had a very different before and after because of those first few weeks.
>>
>>21148322
>No they wouldn't, because they'd have no manpower to do so.
Except Admiral Delaz did it with like 12 ships. You don't need the entire Zeon military for a Colony drop. And why would Zeon suddenly stop doing Colony drops when the entire Federation Space fleet was destroyed? The Federation has nothing to stop Zeon from dropping Colonies.
>>
>>21148163

No, I think I'm just taking the word of multiple sources on the matter regardless of my own thoughts on things. I do think it'd make more sense for the Federation to at least try to use nukes in at least one battle if things are going that badly and they are established to have nuclear missiles in multiple animations. The fact I think that doesn't mean it's what any official source says though. Regardless of how little sense it makes, the Federation apparently never used nukes against Zeon with the notable exception of when trying to destroy Isle Iffish. Which was already filled with nothing but corpses anyway.

The reason they didn't is never stated, but is implied to be a mix of the fact that while ships COULD have nukes, they usually didn't and Zeon generally destroyed most fleets so quickly they had no time to equip them and the fact the Federation were reluctant to use them near inhabited colonies. Which makes enough sense to pass muster for me. Zeon feared them becoming desperate enough to use them regardless though, so was happy to sign the Antarctic Treaty banning them; since it didn't cost them anything given they had much fewer of their own, and couldn't mount another colony drop anyway given how much the first effort had cost them. The Federation were happy to give up the possibility, since they weren't looking to use them but did want to prevent Zeon doing so. There.

>>21148170

There was less wildlife, but there were still animals in the colonies. We see horses and buffalo in Texas Colony during the original show if I recall (maybe it's just horses), swans in Side 6 when Amuro meets Lalah and horses and sheep in the colony that Haman takes Mineva to in Zeta. There are probably other instances I can't recall off-hand. The colonies basically have to have insects too, since they have plants and plants need a variety of insects to thrive. There are no wild game or anything, all of it is cultivated; but animals definitely exist in the colonies.
>>
To the anon saying the Federation didn't use nukes I don't think he realizes Nuclear weapons are a lot less effective without an atmosphere to transfer energy in. A nuclear explosion could easily happen in Gundam and be nearly indistinguishable from a mobile suit exploding or a ship exploding. Nukes are only devastating in an atmosphere
>>
>>21148359

Sure, it's "implied" by the existence of the Antarctic treaty. It's never actually stated though. Never mind animated. We do have get lots of sources talking about Zeon using gas to destroy the colonies and not nukes in the novels (which some data books take as a source for early war stuff), and others talking about how the Federation only used nukes against Isle Iffish. And no animation has ever shown either side using nukes to fuck the other up in any early depictions of the war. It can be as implied as it wants that both sides used them liberally, but that doesn't make it what anyone who has official backing says.

Also, while the colony drop isn't enough to explain the Federation losing half it's population, Zeon outright destroying 4 Sides of a billion+ people apiece is. Which is where the vast majority of casualties were. The narrator line that "both sides lost half their population" is a known mistranslation, and it should be something like "half of humanity was lost".

>>21148363

Again, there are multiple official sources, such as novels and data books that outright state that the colony drop and Loum were Pyrrhic victories, and that they cost Zeon most of their space fleet, mobile suits and pilots and they couldn't afford to try any more colony drops or attack Luna II because of it. They had to spend months building up new forces in space, just like the Federation and the invasion was part of it, since it helped secure resources for that.

>>21148369

I do realize that. It doesn't matter (even ignoring 0083's depiction of the effectiveness of a casaba howitzer). Official sources say they didn't, so they didn't. That's it.
>>
>>21148369
MS reactors are essentially nuclear with an "m" attached, after all.
>>
>>21148380
MS reactors are not normal nucleal reactors but made with minovsky particles
>>
>>21148380

Reactors aren't nuclear weapons, and shouldn't be capable of being so at all in reality so far as I know. They don't even always act as it in Gundam either, and it takes some bad luck to cause them to go off like a bomb when the unit is destroyed.
>>
>>21148109
the 1-2 billion people left on Earth are not all the elites. you had a majority of those just being jobbers

only a few minority in the EF are actually Elites. Bright is not even an Elite he is just a poor kid from Hong Kong. same goes for most of the earthnoids that we see in gundam
>>
>>21148378
>novels and data books that outright state that the colony drop and Loum were Pyrrhic victories, and that they cost Zeon most of their space fleet, mobile suits and pilots and they couldn't afford to try
Given that all the actual animated Battles of Loum show Zeon outright curbstormping the Federation with ease, where do all Zeon casualties come from them? We didn't see a single Zeon mobile suit loss at Loum. The battle was comically easy for Zeon.
>>
>>21148387
We have scenes in 08th MS Team where the Federation is considering using GM nuclear reactors to create nuclear explosions and thus bypass the Antarctic Treaty.
>>
>>21148391

Animation presumably went with it just being the colony drop that cost them and not Loum, regardless of earlier sources. Which is just illustrative of how worthless a source they are generally, honestly. Animation can and will supersede them without a thought, so they're only even kind of good as an indication up until an animation covers the same territory.
>>
>>21148378
>Official sources say they didn't, so they didn't. That's it.
This is incorrect. Official sources don't specifically say the "Federation didn't use nukes". The official sources are neutral on it and mostly focus on Zeon. But they do not discount the Federation using nukes. The sources do mention the Federation's nuclear stockpile is at Luna 2. And all Salamis and Magellan ships are equipped with nuclear launch tubes and can launch nukes.
>>
>>21148408

The only time official sources ever mention the Federation using nukes is against Isle Iffish. They are never mentioned to use them in any accounts of the One Week Battle, Loum etc, regardless of how much or how little they focus on the Federation's part in those battles.
>>
>>21148039
>The biggest reasons I can think of for their poor performance was a lack of experience and a woefully outdated tactical doctrine as this anon pointed out.
> The Federation banked heavily on having a combined arms tactics facilitated by a highly integrated command and control network. Entire fleets were expected to constantly be in communication and feed combat data to one another as well as rely on radar guided targeting systems. To a modern military analyst this is all fair and reasonable.
>Unfortunately, the aforementioned lack of combat experience, as well as the Federation Brass never expecting to actually use their military to fight and preferring to using it as a big intimidating stick to keep the colonies in line, meant that they were completely blindsided by the radar jamming effects of Minovsky particles. Given that their doctrine was so heavily reliant on radio communication and radar guidance, losing those two elements the moment the shooting started would be a massive blow. Similarly, it was the lack of these two tools which pushed the mobile suit to the forefront as they were as fast and maneuverable as space fighters but carried much heavier armor and weapons allowing them to weave through uncoordinated short range point defense system.
>It can be argued that the federation should have factored in Minovsky particle interference given the ubiquity in beam weapons and fusion generators, but the lumbering nature of Federation bureaucracy would marginalize any foreword thinking ideas in favor of the tried and seemingly true.
Anon is this about Gundam or are you talking about a theoretical US vs China battle pre 2040? Very cogent.
>>
>>21148410
The point is that the official sources don't specifically say the Federation didn't use it. There is no line in the tech manuals that say: "The Federation withheld using their nuclear arsenel for fear of harming civilians." They just don't talk about Federation nukes very much.

You are trying to use the official sources lack of info about Federation nukes as evidence to shut down discussion of the possibility of Federation using nukes. The point is that we don't actually know one way or another.

We only know the Federation had nukes, had them available in space, had much more nukes than Zeon ever did, and their ships were equipped to launch them natively. Were they used? We don't know one way or another. The tech manuals don't say if they were used or not. That's the whole point of everyone debating here in this thread.
>>
>>21147759
>grimderp
Spotted the redditor.
>>
>>21148423

And my point is "well official sources don't say they didn't use it" is a really weasely argument that's trying to say "no, no, it is possible!" on a technicality. The same sources mention Zeon using them multiple times, and some of them even mention the Federation not being capable of using them at times due to the treaty. So the official sources do give attention to the Federation and to the use of nuclear weapons both, so a lack of any definitive statement is a statement in and of itself.

You want to have the discussion on whether they did or not, but you are apparently only open to it if the answer is "yes", and any answer pointing out that there is no support for the idea is just "shutting down" that discussion. Which means you don't want the discussion at all. You just want it so long as it goes your way. Or rather, in your own argument, so long as it doesn't not go your way. At which point, why does the discussion matter? What does having it prove or disprove?
>>
>>21148363
Did you actually watch 0083? Not only did Delaz nuke most of the federation's fleet in the naval review, the federation still let the colony drop happen on purpose. The orbital defense fleet or whatever literally backs off and lets the colony through to pass the point of no return and Cima, who's working directly for Bask, is the one who even steers it through while holding Delaz at gunpoint. The entire reason why it happens is because the federation pretty much guided it through on their own. Even then, if it weren't for the fact that Axis gave Delax material support and a MA that belongs decades in the future the federation would still have been able to stop it with the solar system II, had the NZ not damaged the array and destroyed the control ships
>>
>>21148441
The Federation won't be able to do any of that in 0079 because their space fleet WAS DESTROYED. Earth was unprotected.
>>
>>21148432
>Federation not being capable of using them at times due to the treaty.
We are talking about before the Treaty was signed.
>>
>>21148444
And it's still more of a defense than the federation pulling the trigger themselves, which is what's going on in Stardust.
>>
>>21148448

I thought the discussion was about the early battles in the first weeks of the war. Which includes battles like Loum, which took place post treat. Which, even ignoring that stipulation though, the point that the sources including notes that the Federation were restrained at times carries significance in relation to their use of nukes full stop, since it means the text are willing to note them being restrained post treaty but don't mention it pre-treaty i.e. it's giving focus to the Federation's consideration of nuclear weapons. Just not where you want it. Which on it's own heavily implies they simply weren't considering it at the time.
>>
>>21148441
1. Delaz was going to drop the Colony regardless.

2. The Federation and was so corrupt that people were giving Delaz fleet stuff for free (without Bask and his friends helping).

3. Gato in NZ already destroyed a fleet sent by the Federation.

4. I doubt the Solar Ray II would have worked. The Colony was already seconds away from smashing into the Solar Ray II. They fired it way too late. It barely even damaged the surface of the Colony cylinder. Then the Colony smashed through the Solar Ray II

5. Bask and his friends did not directly organize Delaz's revolt. All Bask and his friends did was see an opportunity to seize power. They wouldn't be able to do it without Cima leaking the details of Operation Stardust to them.

6. The databooks state that Bask his friends were already fighting for political power within the Federation military. Bask, Jamitov, Wyatt, etc was part of the larger conservative faction. This faction favored quantity over quality. They wanted huge numbers, and for ships to be the focus of the Federation fleet. And Mobile suits to be only a distant secondary role being carried in transport ships. That's why you see so many 0083 Salamis Kai lacking in mobile suit hangars. They thought the solution to enemy mobile suits would be adding more guns. So the whole fleet is built around a big gun Navy.

They were fighting against the smaller, but more powerful Progressive faction of the Federation military. This faction preferred Quality over quantity. They wanted to build advanced ships like the Albion to carry mobile suits. And to save costs they would outsource Mobile suit development to third party companies like Anaheim. They wanted the Federation Military to be like Londo Bell. A bit smaller, but more elite and nimble. To be able to quickly respond to rebellions before they grow out of hand. General Revil, Vice Admiral Kowen, Captain Synapse, etc belonged to this faction.

The Delaz conflict came at just the right time.
>>
>>21148452
>I thought the discussion was about the early battles in the first weeks of the war. Which includes battles like Loum, which took place post treat.
You are getting some battles mixed up. The Battle of Loum took place before the Antarctic Treaty was signed.
>>
>>21146823
>>21146888
honestly with all that loss of lives and resources it's amazing the Federation was able to continue after the war at all(indeed one could argue the Federation was basically already dead, they just didn't finish bleeding out till after Victory Gundam), though it raises the question if every Side besides 3 and 6 was destroyed, where the hell did the Federation get the people and colonies needed for every post OYW series to happen?
>>
>>21148477
>if every Side besides 3 and 6 was destroyed, where the hell did the Federation get the people and colonies needed for every post OYW series to happen?
You should see some of the ridiculous answers some anons have said when this question was asked in the past. Answers including: "Well just have all the survivors make 3 or 4 kids. Then the problem is solved in 18 years"

...Which completely ignores population growth and how it actually works.
>>
Its utterly weird how nobody goes "KILL ALL ZEKES" in the series. People have go like this for conflicts that killed mere thousands.
>>
>>21148510
Gundam Unicorn heavily implies there was a lot mass rape and pillaging by Federation soldiers at the end of the war. Similar to what the Soviet Union did to German women.
>>
>>21148517
That's just Unicorn and it seems pretty minor given everything that happened
>>
It seems odd how angry the idea of the Federation using nukes angers some fans. I don't get it. Does the Federation using nukes make them bad guys in your eyes?
>>
>>21146909
The fact that the sides repopulated so fast after the OYW leads me to believe that while their pringles cans got popped not a huge percent of the neutral spacenoids actually died during the initial opening. Throughout the series we see a lot of neutral spacenoids after the OYW so they must have become refugees instead of casualties. That is, unless a billion or so earthnoids decided to go to space and say they were there the whole time in the Zeta era. But yeah, basically everybody DID lose someone in the initial skirmish
>>
>>21148866
The supposed nukes thing is just a massive cope for the multiple colonies dropped by Zeon on screen.
>>
>>21148123
>Nuclear energy, or at least nuclear fission energy, which is the kind you're almost certainly thinking of, is not common in UC and never has been.
Anon, the Minovsky reactor is a nuclear reactor. When it detonated inside an MS it irradiated the blast site
>>
>>21148517
Unicorn is a retcon. Also zioness can't resist the BFC is an established canon in every single show
>>
>>21148477
From what I understand, the post OYW conflicts tended to be much smaller in scope with far fewer combatants and much less organized forces compared to the One Year War. None of the post 0079 series present the idea of massive frontlines sprawling over the Earth and Space but rather pitched engagements meant to break the back of the opponent's will to fight hence the insistence on big colony drops. It really wouldnt be until Zanscare that the Federation and its territorial control would actually be legitamately occupied.
>>
>>21148244
>Had the war continued without restrictions, then the next steps would be the Federation taking their massive nuclear stockpile and launching them at Side 3 to turn the Zeon colonies into space dust. And the surviving Zeon troops launching multiple colonies at Earth in revenge killing everyone on the planet.
Isn't this just the backstory of Gundam X?
>>
>>21148510
>Its utterly weird how nobody goes "KILL ALL ZEKES" in the series.
No, that's what the Titans are for
>>
>>21148466
>4. I doubt the Solar Ray II would have worked. The Colony was already seconds away from smashing into the Solar Ray II. They fired it way too late. It barely even damaged the surface of the Colony cylinder. Then the Colony smashed through the Solar Ray II
>5. Bask and his friends did not directly organize Delaz's revolt. All Bask and his friends did was see an opportunity to seize power. They wouldn't be able to do it without Cima leaking the details of Operation Stardust to them
That's something that I've always wondered. Just how in control were Jamitov and Bask during the final days of Operation Stardust. Obviously, Jamitov had been in on it from the beginning since he had time to arrange the creation of the Solar Flare II system and place it in the path of the falling colony and have his cronies attempt to delay the Albion and the Dendrobium but was it their intention to have the Solar Flare II fail and the colony to crash into Earth.

We see in the 0083 OVA that Bask was confident that the Solar Flare II would work if the Delaz Fleet hadn't interfered and genuinely seemed to be panicking to get a second shot at it.

Delving into headcanon, I think Jamitov was better at improvising things in his favor rather than manipulating events. If the colony was destroyed by HIS weapon and fleet, the Federation would hail him as a hero and he'd get power and influence to form the Titans. If the colony fell onto Earth, he would lead the charge blaming the Zeon remnants and he'd get power and influence to form the Titans. It'd all be a matter of spinning the story. As for Bask, I think that Jamitov sold him on the idea that the colony could be stopped and his failure to stop it led him to embracing the belief that spacenoids were inherently dangerous and saw his role in the Titans as taking responsibility for his failure in 0083.
>>
>>21146823
the art style reminds me of that bootleg chinese star wars comic-ish thing
>>
>>21148883
I don't understand anything you wrote. Are you saying war brutal or something? I always figured both sides were throwing everything they had eachother. Like I know the anime focuses on White Base, but figured battles elsewhere was just as brutal.


>>21148510
>>21148966
>>21148517
MS IGLOO goes into this too. Zeon tries to surrender by the end of the anime, but GM pilots laugh wildly and start gunning down Zeon pilots who have already surrendered. The GM pilots scream about making Zeon pay while they do it too
>>
>>21148477
I don’t think “all” the Banchis were destroyed but most of them heavily damaged/completely destroyed, with a few able to sustain life. I also think the conflict was so horrifying to people they just wanted it over with, kind of like a WWI situation.
>>
>>21148369
>>21148378
But wouldn't that actually just support them not using nukes?
Think about it, they are expensive, you need to take more care of them, civilians are squeamish about them, but they aren't actually all that effective in a vacuum. So, why waste resources and goodwill using it.
>>
>>21148477

I'm of the opinion that Tomino only really created the destruction of the colonies to explain away why the other Sides weren't a major factor, and didn't care about them beyond that; so he just decided they were populated again for Zeta, since the Sides have some import for the support of AEUG and a place that the Titans can terrorize there. Which implies a soft retcon, I guess. How you square that away is up to the individual really, but Sunrise's word is that the Federation re-organized the Sides following the One Year War and that's basically all they care to say on it.

>>21148866

It seems odd how defensive people get when you point out that the Federation don't appear to have used nukes in the early days of the war, and basically fall back on calling out the poster pretty quickly. Anyone who points it out must be angry/obsessed/mad etc. Odder still that they never take the extra few seconds of introspection to go "maybe I'm the one angry/obsessed/mad etc. to keep insisting otherwise despite the almost complete lack of proof? Is the Federation using nukes too that central to your concept of them that you can't conceive of them in any other light?

The proof, by the way, basically always boils down to:

> Salamis cruiser were equipped with nuclear launch tubes
> The Zaku II had nuclear shielding

And that's basically it. What's worse is that one of those isn't even really a point in the arguments favor, because the Zaku II is explicitly pointed out to have nuclear shielding because of it's own nuclear bazooka i.e. the same reason the GP-02A was so heavily armored. "Well, the lore doesn't explicitly say they didn't use nukes" is a new one, if pretty worthless on it's own given how much the lore points out Zeon did use nukes, and that the lore also points out the Federation did use them in one specific occasion at Isle Iffish in multiple places; so not mentioning it for other battles has connotations of it's own.
>>
>>21148888

Thanks for reiterating something I said in the same post you quoted.
>>
>>21148466
>4. I doubt the Solar Ray II would have worked. The Colony was already seconds away from smashing into the Solar Ray II. They fired it way too late. It barely even damaged the surface of the Colony cylinder. Then the Colony smashed through the Solar Ray II
It was more like a minute and a half. The novelization which is where most of the solar system II details come from says a focused solar system could have destroyed the colony in under a minute
>>
>>21148039
Doesn't help with how fast they were going with everything they probably didn't have time to do Fleet Problems or even consider intentional Minovsky Particle spreading.
>>
>>21149227
Thread got way off topic…who cares if or if not the federation or zeon used nukes.

Does anyone have info on the previous warships the federation used before the Magellan and the Salamis?

The Chivvay and Puapua were older ships converted to use thermonuclear engines. There’s info about those ships and how both of them weren’t very good for mobile suit carriers because they didn’t have the cooling equipment.
>>
>>21149227
different anon here. I am read through this thread. The thread was fun until you guve up. You are just copying what anons are saying to you. Very lame bruv. Some these pro fed nuke arguments very strong.
>>
>>21149828

I don't believe anything has ever detailed what ships the Federation used before the Salamis and Magellan, which were introduced in the UC0070s during the 70's Armament Plan according to any source that talks about their origin. There was a build up a decade prior though, with the 60's Armament Plan, which was specifically geared toward intimidating Zeon; so they must have built ships then too. Perhaps they were just earlier iterations of the Magellan and Salamis? The only other ship that might predate them is the Columbus class, which is a transport ship with no weapons.
>>
In the novelizations both the Federation and Zeon use nukes on eachother. General Revil does not give a crap about nuclear radiation or civilians or being morally good. His goal is to defeat Zeon. To crush them. So nothing is held back.

And also nuclear technology is everywhere. It's common. They use it in colonies. They use it in mobile suits. They use it in space ships. They use it in planes. They use it boats and they use it in submarines.

In the novels, when Amuro blows up Zakus they explode in a nuclear explosion. He stabs a Zaku in the chest with a beam saber, and it goes nuclear. Amuro shoots another Zeon MS and it triggers a nuclear blast. Amuro even has to account for timing and to make sure to give himself enough time in the Gundam to get away from the nuclear blast and radiation.

When Zeon blow up Federation ships they explode in nuclear fireballs. When Zeon blow up GMs their reactors go critical and nuclear explosions.

Federation and Zeon Planes on Earth use nuclear engines. When struck, they explode in nuclear fireballs killing everyone on board and nearby.

At one point, Sayla even questions if the Federation gave her core fighter enough radiation shielding. She is told she will be fine, but refuses to believe the Federation techs and decides to give herself even more extra space away from the nuclear explosions during battle.

So yeah. Both sides use nukes. Tomino was fine with the idea.
>>
>>21149851
I mean the 70s armament plan, was so the federation fleets could patrol the colonies. The previous ships used chemical rockets (quick maneuvers/combat) and plasma/ion engines for long distance. That’s about the only info I found out about them. Also, they used lasers, missiles and gunpowder munitions, as the main armaments. The idea was the federation would build these large warships with massive firepower, and could patrol the colonies to scare any rebellion into submission. The federation declared war had been eradicated on earth.
>>
>>21149828
>The Chivvay and Puapua were older ships converted to use thermonuclear engines. There’s info about those ships and how both of them weren’t very good for mobile suit carriers because they didn’t have the cooling equipment.

I thought they were outdated because they were too small (Chivay) or lacking weapons (Papua). Basically they aren't purpose built to carry mobile suits like Musai, Gwazine, and Zanzibar.
>>
>>21150213
According to a few materials, the chivvay was an older ship converted to use thermonuclear engines and beam cannons. It has a large internal hangar but it lacked a lot of the cooling systems that the more modern ships in Zeon’s fleet. Mobile Suits got very hot in space and in a vacuum cooling is very difficult. It’s on Gundam Mark somewhere about the ships. It’s the same issue with the Papua. An older ship not designed for MS operations.
>>
>>21149851
Wasn't the EFSF itself established in the 0050's? Magellan and Salamis might just be their first dedicated combat vessels with converted civilian vessels being used before that.
>>
I'm guessing the older Federation ships that preceeded the Magellan and Salamis where probably destroyed during Loum and the colony drop.
>>
>>21150012
So how do they deal with the radiation spilling out everywhere?
>>
>>21150385
Not that anon but Everything is shielded from EMP and radiation. It's why military hardware in Gundam looks so bulky, overly thick, and even analog looking. It has to be over-engineered to withstand high amounts constant EMPs and radioactivity.
>>
>>21150012
I guess this somewhat explains the environmental devastation on Earth.
>>
>>21149227
>The Zaku II had nuclear shielding
That's a dumb argument for the Feds using Nukes. The Zaku II had nuclear shielding because they're firing a nuke close range out of a bazooka and can't get away fast enough to not get hit by stray neutrons and other radiation.
>>
>>21151567
Anon already proved you wrong. Why do you keep coming back stubbornly with the same old arguments?
>>
File: Nuke GM.jpg (196 KB, 539x675)
196 KB
196 KB JPG
So what does the Nuclear Zaku look like then? If it exists.
>>
>>21152036

When did anyone prove that particular point or the overall point wrong? To prove that particular point though: http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/entertainmentbible01.html

> The Principality forces use a multi-layered spaced armor made from super-hard titanium alloys. In the early MS-06C type, the spaces in this armor were filled with radiation-blocking fluid. This was an anti-radiation countermeasure adopted due to the use of bazookas with nuclear warheads, but after the conclusion of the Antarctic Treaty, more durable and lightweight armor became desirable.

> The mobile suit, which was developed for visual-range combat under Minovsky particle interference, had more than enough maneuverability to evade the barrages of Federation Forces ships. And when its bazooka was equipped with nuclear warheads, a mobile suit was capable of sinking a Magellan-class battleship with a single shot. (The mobile suit, however, was often consumed in the explosion before it had time to get away.)
>>
>>21152056
>When did anyone prove that particular point or the overall point wrong?
See this anon >>21150012
It's over. Move on. The Federation used nukes. Zeon used nukes. There's nothing to argue anymore.
>>
>>21152056
The Federation Salamis and Magellan had nuclear Launch tubes. So what's your point?
>>
>>21152068

My point is that the idea the Zaku II had radiation shielding to defend against Federation use of nuclear missiles is incorrect. The fact the Salamis (and maybe the Magellan; though I don't think anyone has provided a source for that) can theoretically launch nuclear weapons does not mean they actually did do so during the opening days of the war; outside the assault on Isle Iffish at least. As to >>21150012? There's so much misinformation in that post that it'd take me a while just to point it all out. I'm happy to do so at some point, but it'll take me a while to actually make a reply there's so much wrong with it.
>>
>>21152114
>My point is that the idea the Zaku II had radiation shielding to defend against Federation use of nuclear missiles is incorrect.
Anon...radiation shielding is perfectly capable of doing 2 things at once.
>>
>>21152130

Sure. Now find me a source anywhere saying it was actually ever meant for that purpose too, since the quote in >>21152056 mentions it as a specific adaptation because of its own nuclear weapon and not for multiple purposes. Until you do, the idea it is might as well be fanfiction.
>>
>>21152137
>Now find me a source anywhere saying it was actually ever meant for that purpose
...You want a source that says radiation shielding is meant to block radiation...? Please stop wasting our time. We aren't here to spoonfeed you.
>>
>>21152154

No, I want you to stop playing word games and pretending ignorance of basic discussion. The quote I provided says the shielding is there specifically because of the units own weapon, not radiation in general. If you want to prove it's for radiation in general then provide a source saying it's for radiation in general, as opposed to one saying it's to counter the units own weapon's explosions.
>>
The Federation used nukes during Operation British. So we know their ships carry nukes. So it's not even an argument. When a Salamis explodes in battle, the Salamis nuclear reactor explodes too. Radiation spills everywhere during battle. Anyone who says otherwise is an idiot.
>>
>>21152114
>As to >>21150012? There's so much misinformation in that post that it'd take me a while just to point it all out. I'm happy to do so at some point, but it'll take me a while to actually make a reply there's so much wrong with it.
Then until you actually disapprove all the misinformation you claim then your post is meaningless.
>>
>>21152169

That anon hasn't actually proved anything either, since you're asking for proof; but okay.
>>
>>21152137
>>21152114
The Federation uses Thermonuclear engines on their space ships. When these ships are destroyed in battle in huge explosions including the reactor and engine, it spills radiation everywhere in the immediate vicinity. Radiation shielding is necessary to protect the mobile suit pilot.
>>
>>21152184

So it's not necessary because the Federation use nuclear weapons, but because they use nuclear engines according to you?
>>
>>21152172
>That anon hasn't actually proved anything either, since you're asking for proof; but okay.
anon proved that the novels written by Tomino himself absolutely shit on your claim. Nuclear tecnology isn't special in UC gundam. It's common. Every side uses them.
>>
>>21152199

No, he's SAID that, not proved it. Those are different things.
>>
File: M1A2-SEPv3.jpg (230 KB, 1200x800)
230 KB
230 KB JPG
>>21152189
Technically, every Federation ship is a flying nuclear dirty bomb if struck. I don't see what is your point. Most real life armored vehicles have a NBC protection system, and a backup NBC system to allow the crew to continue fighting should they be attacked by Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons.
>>
>>21152203
>No, he's SAID that, not proved it. Those are different things.
no anon. thats not how it works. YOU were the one who jumped into this thread yelling at everyone and saying everyone is wrong. so its YOUR job to prove to US why its wrong.
>>
>>21152210

Okay. None of that shows that the Federation used nuclear weapons in the early days of the war aside from trying to stop Operation British. Or is there no difference between nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons?

>>21152221

If that's your game now then it's still wrong, because people claimed the Federation did before I said they didn't.
>>
>>21152228
>If that's your game now then it's still wrong, because people claimed the Federation did before I said they didn't.
keyword: people
which means its generally accepted here the Federation used nukes. we are the standard here. not you. you are the only one yelling at everyone they are wrong. so prove it. dont pull shit like "hurr durr this post is just misinformation. not worth my time responding because its so full of misinformation!" sorry nope. cant take that shit seriously.
>>
>>21152258

At no point did I say "not worth my time". In fact, I literally said the opposite in that it'd take time to write something. If you want to believe it until then, then more power to you. The post didn't actually prove anything though, because it never provided any proof.
>>
>>21152228
>Okay. None of that shows that the Federation used nuclear weapons in the early days of the war aside from trying to stop Operation British. Or is there no difference between nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons?

Different anon here. You are confused, and getting your facts mixed up. There is no "early days of the war". The Federation used nukes during Operation British to stop Zeon dropping the colony. And Operation British happened during the One Week Battle when Zeon launched their surprise offensive against the Federation. This all happened in the short timespan of 7 days.
>>
>>21152280

So the first week of the war isn't part of the early days of the war?
>>
>>21152318

Not if your argument is "before Operation British" when the Federation actually used nukes.
>>
The peabrained zeekfags seething is hilarious. Mark Simmons himself said there's no publication of the federation using nukes except on the colony drop
>The only published claims about Federation nuclear weapons involve the attempts to stop Operation British, which didn't involve civilians.
Peddling fiction is a specialty of retarded zeeks on and off the screen
>>
>>21146857
>>MS-06C Zaku II had radiation shielding for nuclear warfare
That’s supposed to be primarily around the cockpit to shield the pilot from the reactor powering the MS.
>>
>>21152339

My argument is that the Federation didn't use nuclear missiles during the early days of the war, which I'd generally think of as pre-treaty in this case, since use of nuclear missiles after that was much less likely for a variety of reasons, but which would definitely include the first week to 10 days of the war. During which Operation British happened.
>>
I’ve seen some info that tries to paint the Federation as doing just as much killing as zeon. Was the federation gassing or nuking enemy colonies or was it just zeon?
>>
>>21152363
>My argument is that the Federation didn't use nuclear missiles during the early days of the war,

OK. Let's be absolutely clear here. Let's stop saying "early days of the war" since that could mean a lot things, and could easily be misinterpreted to mean weeks or months. That is not the case here.

The One Week Battle was the start of the war. The first week of January 0079. Operation British (the Colony drop) happened on DAY 2 of the One Week Battle. You are arguing that the Federation did not use nuclear weapons for the first 24 hours (DAY 1) of the war. So your entire argument is the idea that the Federation did not use nukes for one entire day until Operation British happened on DAY 2. Not even multiple days. Just one day where the Federation did not use nukes until Operation British. This is what you are arguing with other anons about? Just one day until nukes were used.
>>
>>21152426

No, because there were multiple fronts of fighting during that week. It included a running battle to stop Isle Iffish, but also the defense of several different Sides. And also includes several weeks after the One Week Battle, where more battles, such as Loum happened.
>>
>>21152426
yeah the anon is being really stupid when you list out the facts like that. oh wow the federation didn't use nukes for one entire day during a surprise zeon attack! so amazing. the federation are so brave. zeon so evil. early days of the war my ass. the federation launched nukes as soon as they got their shit together and the surprise was over
>>
>>21152426
Don't bother arguing with anons autism. I swear it's probably the same anon who used to spend days arguing with everyone and saying the Federation "Didn't have GMs during the Battle of Odessa on Earth!". He even posts just like that anon too. But then someone posted screenshot from MS IGLOO showing GMs and manga scans showing GMs. Then the anon got pissy and said it doesn't count. And nothing counts unless it was shown in in the original 1970s Gundam anime. I have no doubt if you found some rare quote that said the Federation fired nukes at Zeon ships, anon would just say it doesn't count and move the goalposts even further.
>>
I've lost track about the argument is about.

Was it that the Federation didn't use nukes?
>>
>>21152363
Why would the Federation not use nuclear weapons, then decide to use them, then decide to use them again? Once you use nuclear weapons, then all bets are off. The seal is undone.
>>
>>21152719
Woopss. Meant not use nukes, then use nukes, then not use nukes again
>>
>>21152579
I have no idea why it triggers the autism in people so much.
Either way the destruction of the initial week was unimaginable. The only thing that triggers my autism was, did zeon pump the GG Gas or did they fire gas grenades in the colonies? In 08th MS team, you see a Zaku 1 fire a gas grenade after punching a hole through the colony. Which is stupid because wouldn’t you want the colony sealed if you were deploying chemical weapons? There’s also other materials that state the Zakus were used to set up conduits to pump gas and a lot were picked off in the process. That’s why the losses were so high for Zeon.
>>
>>21153229

Regarding the gas, the answer is likely both methods were used. For the use we see in 8th MS Team, the Zaku was likely ordered to hit that specific area with the gas and any leakage via the hole in the colony side was considered acceptable.
Honestly, I don't understand the bickering in this thread. Either the Feds used nukes (and Zeon felt frightened enough to agree a treaty banning their continued use) or the Feds didn't use nukes (and Zeon felt frightened enough to agree a treaty banning their potential use). It doesn't change anything about the pre-treaty fighting except whether or not a colony or battleground was deliberately irradiated or not.
>>
>>21153249
I always figured Zeon agreed to the Treaty because they were planning to invade Earth. They didnt want the Federation to nuke Zeon landing troops or for the Federation do some sort suicidal attack there they blow up entire cities just to take out Zeon.

If you think about it, the Federation could have totally gone Scorched Earth just to deny Zeon from winning and conquering the planet. Nuke all major cities. Leave Zeon with dust as a final middle finger
>>
>>21148365
The Texas colony was built for tourism, so they probably would have more biodiversity than your average colony. And we recently learnt from Moon Gundam that Moon Moon was a similar story--it was once meant to be one big theme park, but the project was abandoned.

A lot of discussion here centering around colonies. But what about the real working class like those toiling at mining asteroids like Palau? Wouldn't they have even more reason to be pissed at the Federation?

>>21148129
I think you should add to your argument that Earth at that point in the Universal Century has become a stand-in for heaven to the space elites. Remember the mayor of Shangri-La in ZZ trying to move his family to Earth?
>>
>>21146823
>The start of the one year war just seemed absolutely horrendous. You had colonies being destroyed with nukes, beams and chemical weapons. Mobile Suits decimating the Federation Space Forces. What was the state of the federation fleet before the one year war? We’re they poorly trained and that added to the slaughter?

Well the Federation fleet was designed around intimidation (lots of numbers) and combined arms warfare. That each Federation fleet would transmit real live data to eachother in order to counter the enemy. Then the Federation fleet would pound the enemy with missiles and long range weapons.

The Federation did not anticipate Zeon would be insane enough to intentionally spread Minovsky particles everywhere during combat. AND come up with a solution in the form of Mobile Suits.

Prior to this Minovsky particles existed but the idea was to keep particles contained, and leaks were rare. The Federation thought no enemy would spread particles around because it would also hurt themselves too.

Once the Minovsky particles were used by Zeon in combat, the Federation fleet strategy became useless. Fleets could not communicate with each other in real time. Data links were useless and long range missiles were jammed.

Lets use a real world analogy. It would be like if the United States Navy got hit by magic dust that jammed all wireless communications. Radar doesn't even work either. Now the US Naval fleet is thrown back to World War 1 technology.

Then Cuba decides to invade out of no where. And the Cuban Navy utterly smashes the United States Navy. The Cuban Navy is able to win by using very fast Jet Skis. 1 to 2 people per Jet Ski. And Jet Ski pilots carry portable bazookas that carry insanely powerful rockets that can blow up Aircraft carriers in 1 or 2 hits. Cuba destroys the entire US Navy. Then Cuba demands the USA surrender. Or else they will drop orbiting sattellites on major US cities.

Thats the kind of lunacy the Federation faced
>>
>>21153510
That’s so nuts bro
>>
>>21153328

I don't know if any side stories or other sources have changed things, but the general chronology goes that the Federation-Zeon conference in Antarctica was originally going to be to agree a ceasefire/armistice with Zeon naming their terms; the Federation military was mauled, many of the leading fleet admirals were dead, captured or otherwise bottled up and out of contact, and there was a legitimate fear Zeon were going to make a third colony drop attempt (number two resulting in the Battle of Loum, which the Federation at the time considered a loss). General Revil then gave his Zeon-is-Exhausted speech (having escaped Zeon captivity, details vary on how that all happened), which convinced the Earth-side brass to not surrender, which led to the treaty prohibiting all forms of WMD & orbital drop shenanigans.

Zeon likely agreed to this because they calculated that a) they could win a ground war and b) they couldn't repel the Federation just spamming their nuclear arsenal towards Side 3, eventually some warheads would get through.
>>
>>21146823
I love the illustration, very battletech
>>
>>21154120
The one that always bugged me in the original anime was that somehow General Revil's speech inspired the already defeated Federation to keep fighting. That this cooky old man somehow "escaped" Zeon custody, and made it ALL the way back to Earth from Side 3 in the middle of a war.

I always thought that no sane person would listen to this crazy Grandpa who got his entire Space Fleet destroyed, millions of young men died, and he himself was captured. In real life, he would be quietly retired and not allowed anywhere near another fleet again.

That's why I was so delighted at Gundam Origin changing things. In Origin, Zeon actually orchestrated Revil's escape. And that Revil was just a dumb pawn being used by both sides to keep the war going.
>>
>>21154291

Even in the original explanations, he never made it back to Earth for the speech, instead either reaching friendly territory on the Moon or Luna 2. His escape was also orchestrated/facilitated by Zeon personnel who either a) hated the Zabis or b) were horrified by what the Zabis had done in the name of independence. I'm not a fan of how the Origin made out that it was a product of the Kycillia/Gihren factional split.

As for why they listened to him; pre-war he was one of the top brass, he seems to have been the driving force behind the Federation MS development program which had just been proven 110% correct, and by all accounts was respected by the men who served under him.
>>
>>21155038
>territory on the Moon or Luna 2.
That's practically Earth. 90% there. Close enough.
>>
21155038
>His escape was also orchestrated/facilitated by Zeon personnel who either a) hated the Zabis or

Extremely Unlikely. Zeon wouldn't put their greatest Prisoner of War, and biggest bargaining chip under the guard of people unreliable or with questionable loyalties. And it's not possible for a single person to arrange safe passage from Side 3 to Earth/Moon/Luna 2 in the middle of a war. Zeon space fleets are everywhere. They wouldn't get close.

>b) were horrified by what the Zabis had done in the name of independence.

Unlikely. Zeon nationalism was riding high at this point in the war. Zeon had won some of their greatest victories.

>I'm not a fan of how the Origin made out that it was a product of the Kycillia/Gihren factional split.

You don't have to be a fan. I get that. But you mjst to admit it makes far more sense from a logistical and practical standpoint. General Revil would be under the heaviest of Zeon guards. Only a deliberate act of sabotage would explain his prison break, escape out the colonies, avoiding military patrols, AND successful flight through space back to Federation territory.
>>
>>21155852
That makes the most sense to me
>>
>>21155852

The 'original' timeline states his escape was orchestrated by Federation agents & Zeon defectors, so clearly the 'heaviest of Zeon guards' weren't up to much, and the vaunted Zeon nationalism hadn't brainwashed every single person into being blind to what the Zabi family had done.
>>
>>21157266

Where were details of the animation's version of Revil's escape even established?
>>
>>21146848
nukes absolutely were used in 0079 and this is not gay after the fact retconning manual fanfiction
>>
>>21153510
Wish Cuba had launched the nukes in the 60s
>>
>>21152262

Following up on this (1/11; yeah, it's a long 'un):

>>21150012

It took me a few days to reply, for the simple reason that I took the uncertainty about a few things in it as an excuse to re-read the novels since I've been looking for a reason to do so with a while. So thank you for that excuse, if nothing else. I'm going to post a link to an old translation of the novel for reference during these posts too, so if anyone wants to check (or dispute) anything, they have the means to do so: https://archive.org/details/manga_Gundam_Mobile_Suit_Awakening_Escalation_Confrontation/Mobile%20Suit%20Gundam%20-%20Volume%2001%20-%20Awakening%20%5BDel%20Rey%5D/page/n57/mode/2up

It uses names like Sha, Gren, Zak etc, since it was done in 1989, rather than the standard localizations Banrise have gone with in the meantime, but it's a free reference that can serve to let people look up things to see they exist regardless. I've altered the names to be those familiar when pasting quotes, for the sake of legibility, but they're otherwise quotes from that source.

That all said: basically nothing in your post rings as true. There are a couple of obvious issues that make me think you've never read the novels at all too. Sayla doesn't pilot a core fighter, for instance, for the simple reason that she doesn't pilot at all in the novelization. She's a comms officer the entire way through the story. There's no part of the story set on Earth either, and not even any real indication the war has actually touched Earth directly (i.e. fighting on Earth). That said, in terms of specifics:
>>
> And also nuclear technology is everywhere. It's common. They use it in colonies.

This, for instance, is disingenuous at best because the colonies in the novel are explicitly described as being solar powered and don't run on nuclear energy at all. Which is presumably because that's how Gerard K. O'Neill described Island 3 type colonies in his book on them, which is what Tomino based the colonies in Gundam on. There might be something inside the colony that uses nuclear energy, but the colony itself doesn't use nuclear power at all. None of them do.

> Solar-powered colonies such as the one at Side 7 were almost perpetual motion machines; once activated, their ecosystems went through their natural cycles, and basic materials were largely recycled.

Which is from the start of chapter 3 of the first novel.

> Most were of the sealed-cylinder type and had from six to eight giant solar-cell panels on their periphery, which supplied the residents inside with all the energy they needed.

And that's a description of the closed type colonies used at Zeon, from the first chapter of the third book.

> The Zum City port was on the shady end of the mammoth colony cylinder; the sunny end was used primarily for agriculture and collecting solar energy for internal power requirements.

With this from the opening of the final chapter of the third novel. I don't believe there's even a mention of regular planes, boats or submarines in the novels either, since you mentioned them as more examples of places where nuclear technology is used. Presumably because, again, there's no part of the story set on Earth. Lt. McVery commands a team of Cosmo Fighters aboard the Pegasus II for a while in the second novel, through several battles, but there's very little description of them and even their demise is mostly the narrator saying the units were destroyed after the fighting is done.
>>
> When Zeon blow up GMs their reactors go critical and nuclear explosions.

Amuro at one point thinks about how while reactor explosions inside a colony are no nuclear bombs, they do produce larger explosions than normal and can cause contamination. He acts as if just jumping away from the unit, with thrust assistance, will be enough to evade it though.

> Damn! he thought, realizing his mistake. He turned the Gundam's chest verniers on full and jumped backward. The Zaku descending the mountain slope tried to pick him off but missed. Amuro cursed its pilot for even trying; he must have known his colleague had been mortally wounded, and they both had to get out of the way of the nuclear blast that would ensue. It would not go off like an atomic bomb, but it was far more powerful than normal explosives and could cause contamination.

Which is from the end of chapter 1 of the first novel. The blast throws the Gundam 4 kilometers away, but just jumping away is enough to evade the actual explosion; even if not to stop the unit from being buffeted by the blast wave it generated. It's also worth recalling here when deciding the size of the blast based on how far the Gundam is thrown that the novel establishes earlier that the gravity at "ground level" is half that on Earth.

Which stands in contrast with the fife nuclear missile Zeon are described as using in the second novel, and which is described as being powerful enough to "shake the universe".

> Federation and Zeon Planes on Earth use nuclear engines. When struck, they explode in nuclear fireballs killing everyone on board and nearby.
>>
Being generous in this case it's possible that you're just mixing the novel and animes events up, because while Garma commands a California base in the novels, the Califonia in question is a small asteroid base orbiting Earth and he sends out an attack force of 3 Gaws and 18 Dopps to meet Char who is herding the Pegasus (the novel's name for the White Base, which is just a ship class and not name) in it's direction. The Pegasus takes out one Gaw by hitting it's nuclear engines and causing an explosion that damages Garma's Gaw; causing him to suicide charge the Pegasus like in the anime. There's a good few similarities to the anime, but it takes place entirely in space. Not even in high atmosphere, since it's on the way to Luna II. There are no Federation space planes destroyed there though, so it may not be what you're thinking of.

> At one point, Sayla even questions if the Federation gave her core fighter enough radiation shielding. She is told she will be fine, but refuses to believe the Federation techs and decides to give herself even more extra space away from the nuclear explosions during battle.

I also can't find anything like this on a quick search of the novels, which is not surprising since Sayla never uses a core fighter; the closest I can find is Sayla running away, on foot, from an explosion while recalling that she had been taught contamination from Minovsky reactors wasn't that big a danger but was going to be cautious anyway.

> As a result of her diligence, Sayla lagged behind the rest of the group and had to dash alone across the area where the Zaku had been destroyed. She had been taught not to worry about residual radiation after the explosion of a mobile suit or even a warship's nuclear fusion engine, but she knew there were limits to this assurance. After all, if an explosion were big enough to blow a hole in the colony's outer wall, even the whoosh of escaping air could kill a person.
>>
Which is from about half way through the second chapter of the first novel.

The bigger issue with your post however is this quote:

> In the novelizations both the Federation and Zeon use nukes on each other. General Revil does not give a crap about nuclear radiation or civilians or being morally good. His goal is to defeat Zeon. To crush them. So nothing is held back.

The only people noted to use nuclear weapons specifically during the novels are Zeon characters; and not even many of them, honestly. One of the few times it's definitively raised is noting that the second Elmeth, piloted by a character called Kusko Al, is capable of using beam or nuclear missile bits for instance. Oddly, the novel never makes a fuss of the fact that the Elmeth is now using nuclear weapons. No-one, not even any Federation character comments on it. Char's second command ship, the Madagascar, also houses several large "Fife" nuclear missiles that the narrator says are so powerful people talk about them being able to "shake the universe". Again, no-one comments on the fact Zeon is casually using nuclear weapons despite the treaty.

That aside, no Federation character is ever mentioned to use a nuclear weapon, in the present of the story or in recollections about the early war. Which includes General Revil. You saying he doesn't give a crap about nuclear radiation, civilians or morality is, so far as I can tell, fanfiction. There's only a handful or references to those events in the books, and none of them point to Revil or the Federation in general using nuclear weaponry, being dismissive about civilians or not caring about the morality of their actions.

Here are the excerpts about Revil and his part in the first weeks of the war so far as I can find:
>>
> General Revil put up a courageous struggle around Side 5, known as Ruum, and successfully held off the Zeon forces there.
> A month after the One Week Battle, as this first stage of the conflict came to be known, Zeon launched another attack. But General Revil had mobilized the surviving Federation ships and was again able to resist effectively. As the opposing fleets clashed in a fierce struggle between the Earth and the moon around Side 5, the Zeon forces were at first outnumbered in ships, but they put their new Mobile Suits— the Zaks—to superb use and succeeded in annihilating most of the Federation ships. Revil's flagship was destroyed by a special team of Zaks called the Black Tri-Stars, and Revil himself was taken prisoner.

Both of which are from chapter 4 of the first novel. There are other mentions of the pre-treaty war, including the 3 Second Declaration, the One Week Battle, the Battle of Loum (not Isle Iffish or Operation British though; those were lore invented to explain the animation's events by data books a few years later and the novels simply refer to Zeon initiating a colony crash strategy with at least one colony hitting, but never clarifying further), but all other mentions of them are essentially just references to them being a thing and they don't have anything in the way of detail.

In fact, not only is there no indication that Revil used nuclear weapons, he's specifically stated to be unlikely to be doing so during A Bao A Qu (i.e. post treaty):

> "Any evidence of long-range nuclear weapons being used by the Federation?"
> "Not yet, Excellency. We consider it highly unlikely that Revil himself would violate the Treaty of the Antarctic."

Kycilia thinks that because it's war they shouldn't assume anything, but the novel places him as unlikely to be using them the one time it does link him to nuclear weapons. About the only thing in the entire novel that's even close to that view is this passage from just before his death:
>>
> Revil laughed at his staff officer. "You're being too optimistic," he said. "Don't forget there's a man sitting in an easy chair in a room in Zeon with his finger on the button. And all he has to do is move that finger a centimeter, and wham, the laser cannon goes off. It'll go off even if he sneezes. And besides, in a life-and-death struggle, he's not going to worry if things get a little messy. If I was in Gren Zavi's position and I thought I had a chance of annihilating most of the Federation Force, heck. I'd push the button even if it would generate a few casualties on my own side. Gren can always shed a tear and mourn the Zeon losses later. He can always claim they were for a greater cause—for total victory."

Which implies that Revil is willing to contemplate friendly deaths in service of victory, but only with a specific goal in mind and the assurance of that victory in the first place. You could qualify it further and say that he's only considering it when the losses are small (the trolley problem basically) or confined to his own men, but ultimately, the point is that he isn't just going "fuck Zeon at all costs" but is quite rational about the costs and reasons for victory throughout the book at any point we see him.

> >>21152346

Just to clarify this, Mark Simmons, who has done translation work for Sunrise before on different Gundam shows and has translated a fair few bits of data books and such on his personal site posts on one or two forums under the username "toysdream". Here's the original post this anon mentioned (https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=16197#p363607):
>>
> I don't really think I've seen a published claim that the Federation side used these weapons indiscriminately. The First Gundam opening narration says that "In roughly one month of fighting, the Principality of Zeon and Federation Forces caused the deaths of half the total population," so the Federation must have done something, but aside from EB 39's claim that warship crossfire destroyed a lot of Side 5's colonies I can't think of any source that says specifically what. The only published claims about Federation nuclear weapons involve the attempts to stop Operation British, which didn't involve civilians.

>>21152405

It would be literally impossible for the Federation to kill as many people as Zeon, both because the Federation had a much higher population count under their aegis than Zeon, and because Zeon were responsible for killing about half the human population all on their own, so there actually weren't enough people in existence for the Federation to kill to match Zeon and wouldn't be for another generation or more.

A single Side of 40+ colony cylinders generally has a population of about 1 billion people and at the start of the war, the Federation controlled Sides 1, 2, 4, 5, 7 and maybe Side 6 too; depending on the source. Side 7 was just one sparsely populated cylinder though, so that had a population in to the thousands, not the millions. Regardless, Zeon deliberately targeted and killed the populations of Sides 1, 2, and 4 in the opening attacks of the war, as well as trying to do the same with the population of Side 5 and then dropped Isle Iffish on Earth to kill another few million people directly, and kill another billion or so in the following weeks indirectly via environmental impact (tsunamis, volcanoes, ash blotting out the sun, starvation etc).
>>
The only Zeon people killed so far as we know are soldiers in various attacks. The opening narration of the original shows has the narrator in the dub and the sub both say that "each side lost half it's population" (or something similar), but it's a known mistranslation and should be something closer to "half the human population had died".

>>21152719
>>21152747

The seal being undone doesn't mean it can't be done up again. In fact, we know for a fact this is what happened, because that's literally the purpose of the Antarctic Treaty. No more weapons of mass destruction by either side. Including nuclear weapons. There were a few instances of their use after that over the course of the remaining 11 months of the war, but for the most part, they weren't used again. Nor did the Federation refrain from using them for one day, then use them against Isle Iffish, since again, the war started on January 1st and Isle Iffish only started it's transit to Earth on January 3rd. We don't know when the Federation began attacking it, but it's likely to have been at least a day later. Which means the Federation weren't using nuclear weapons for at least 2 days; not 1 and probably more like several days.

My view though, for the record, is not that the Federation refrained from using them for any moralistic reasons and that it's more likely the Federation simply COULDN'T use them in the initial fighting, because when the majority of your defense is a series of interconnected satellites and fleets are mostly home defense forces to patrol various Sides, it's likely those ships simply didn't actually have nukes; even if they technically could have had. Plus, most of those fleets were wiped out just after losing said connection because of the advent of Minovsky particles as an active part of combat. It's likely they were destroyed before they could even put up any real defense.
>>
The Federation had time to prepare to intercept Isle Iffish, and could load nuclear missiles. The only major battle after that was Loum, and there's several possible explanations for why the Federation may not have used nuclear weapons there even if they technically could have. Revil may have decided they weren't effective enough against nimble units like mobile suits, for one. Or they may have expended too many against Isle Iffish, and been holding the rest in reserve in case Revil failed and another colony started an Earth approach. We're never told. What we do know is that there just is not anything saying the Federation used nukes during those early parts of the war outside trying to stop Isle Iffish; in contrast to Zeon, who are noted to use them in several different places.

>>21153229

As you say, it kind of doesn't matter that the Federation didn't use nuclear weapons; the scale of death is almost unimaginable regardless. What I think is a part of it is that the Federation have to be bad too, and that because the Federation have to be bad too the only way they can be as bad is to be complicit in that destruction on some level. The Federation's problems lie in a different direction than Zeon's though. Zeon is a totalitarian autocracy that runs roughshod over the Earthsphere in order to enact the personal ideals of a tiny handful of ambitious people; the Federation by contrast is a "total democracy" (with the novel actually including the air quotes when talking about it) founded with high ideals but became increasingly corrupt over time, and ties itself up in so much red tape that basically nothing changes or gets done anymore. They're completely reactive nowadays, and there's no real will to get anything done or change the system anymore. The one time there was some desire to do so, the people who felt it had to split off and form their own branches (the Titans and AEUG), and ultimately everything went back to a status quo within a few years.
>>
The Zabis were probably going to cause problems due to ambition anyway at some point, but the Federation's corruption and laziness is what they ultimately used to gain power as is, and what they could point at as the reason people needed to give them said power. The Federation's policies fed Zeon, and Zeon in turn lashed out at the Federation in order to get what they wanted. Both sides are at fault, in a vicious cycle where each side's actions pushed the other towards some action itself for 20+ years before it finally exploded into the One Year War. The Federation are and did lots of fairly contemptible, horrible shit. It's just different contemptible horrible shit than Zeon did.

>>21154291

The novels don't explain how he escaped to Earth (he is mentioned to give his speech from Jaburo specifically), as a contrast to The Origin, but they do explain why anyone gave him the time of day. Which is because after Zeon declared war, they attacked and slaughtered the populations of Sides 1, 2 and 4 without meeting significant resistance, but Revil's fleet was able to put up enough resistance at Side 5 that Zeon actually failed to destroy it and thus, had to fall back and try again. Which is the background for the Battle of Loum in the novels.

Yes, Revil lost and was captured at Loum, but (a) some of his fleet survived, which is more than anyone else could say and (b) he only lost after being the ONLY fleet commander who had any actual wins against Zeon up to that point. When the crew of the Pegasus II interact with him during the novels they talk about how inspiring he is generally given his affable attitude, and the fact he's so willing to listen to people, consider outside views etc too as well as being one of the few Federation generals who seemed more forward looking in general, with regards to mobile suits, Newtypes etc. So he was probably popular amongst the ranks even before the war too.
>>
That's it. You may not proceed to:

> lol, not reading all that shit
> fucking autist!
> Nah, none of that counts
>>
>>21160487
>It took me a few days to reply, for the simple reason that I took the uncertainty about a few things in it as an excuse to re-read the novels since I've been looking for a reason to do so with a while.

Translation:
I never read the novels in-depth so I needed a week to go online and find it before I could reply.

>I'm going to post a link to an old translation of the novel for reference during these posts too, so if anyone wants to check (or dispute) anything, they have the means to do so

Translation:
I used Ctrl-F searches on a very old PDF translation I found. I'm going to post the link to appear unbiased. But I still didn't actually read it cover to cover. Please use this PDF to do all the work and spoonfeed me.

And No I'm not the original anon you are arguing with. I dislike how derailed the thread with the nuclear arguments. Next time just say:

"I never read the novels. So I'm going to need some time to find them and read them before I can respond to you."

Otherwise you obviously wouldn't need a week to respond when the thread has moved on to discussing other things.
>>
>>21160875
you lost man, leave the thread
>>
>>21160956
You missed the window to respond a week ago. The debate is long over. Stop trying to ressurect a dead topic.
>>
>>21160875

I have posted that link a dozen or more times over the last few years, which you can find in the archives and included on depth rebuttals of pretty much every point raised with direct quotes on several of them. There is nothing for anyone to spoon-feed me.
>>
>>21160522
>Newtypes etc. So he was probably popular amongst the ranks even before the war too

The other supplementary info disprove this. Especially the 0083 material. General Revil was part of the minority progressive faction in the Federation. The much larger conservative faction military leaders disliked him. The only reason Revil had such huge political influence was because he escaped Zeon and made that speech during the Antarctic Treaty negotiations. That gave him immense public support. So he was reluctantly tolerated.

Other Conservative military leaders were happy that he died during the Battle of A Baou Que. He was their biggest obstacle politically. During 0083, the rising Titans faction were able to use the Delaz attacks as an excuse to purge any remaining Progressve faction/Revil loyalists.
>>
>>21161036

I was only speaking to the novel version specifically, to compare it with the The Origin version originally posted. That said, he's also noted to not be popular with the Federation leadership and much of the other upper command in the novel because they found him too liberal essentially. So the two accounts aren't incompatible.
>>
The Federation obviously used nukes. But Fed nukes suck because Fed nukes are built for long range. So they suck with Minovsky particles. They are blind.

Zeon nukes are built to be hand carried by Zakus and mobile suits and work better under minovsky jamming.. That's why you hear more about Zeon nukes. Because they actually scored kills!

Fed nukes couldn't hit anything.
>>
>>21164364
I can see this
>>
>>21166939
>>21164364
Makes sense. Feds are still expecting space battles to be against fleets or asteroid bases, their nukes are gonna be the of the long range, cruise missile type for heavy bombardment. Meanwhile, Zakus are essentially packing nuclear RPGs to fire at short range en masse, even if anti-air guns aren't crippled by minovsky particles, shooting down such small nukes with short lead times to react is going to be hard. Even then, shooting down a nuke might set it off anyway and they're already being used on you at extremely close range, meaning there can only be a lot of collateral damage among their own fleet formations.
>>
>>21164364
Also Zeon nukes explode bigger because they're filled with more freedom. That's why zeon nuking spacenoids is a good thing while the fed nuking is bad.
>>
>>21167209
makes sense
>>
>>21167105
This goes back to the Federation’s doctrine. The fed ships were able to use nuclear weapons but think of the timeline. Operation British happened a few days after the initial attacks on Sides 1, 2, 4 and possibly 6 (depending on the source). The federation fleets that were stationed at the various Sides probably didn’t have them readily available. Luna 2, was far enough away so, arming them with nukes took time. Also, without radar, firing nukes wouldn’t have been effective. Coupled with the fact the Federation was ill trained. The feds were fighting blind. This was a perfect storm for the Zeon military to rip apart the Federation ships. I would like to know how the federation managed to fend off the Zeon War machine, enough to deal a big enough blow to force a stalemate. Some sources claimed the Zaku’s got picked off while attempting to gas colonies in attempt at another drop, or did the federation manage to use nukes or conventional weapons?
>>
>>21170151

> Some sources claimed the Zaku’s got picked off while attempting to gas colonies in attempt at another drop,

I'm not sure why you're fishing for other reasons when you've already stated a reasonable one yourself. Operation British was a Pyrrhic victory for Zeon. Yeah, they managed to successfully drop Isle Iffish, if not where they wanted, but the attempt cost them a lot of mobile suits, ships and trained pilots. They had to invade to keep momentum because the space forces required months to build back up military resources. Which even works with what we see in the show, where the loss if a handful of Zakus is treated as a big issue at the start of the show, almost all Earth forces are planes and M'Quve is the only one to use lots of suits weeks later and then once things advance into space shortly after that, there are dozens of suits in fleets constantly and 3 suits is nothing.
>>
>>21170151

First, I wouldn't talk down the training of the Federation forces. They likely fell into the same trap the Royal Navy did in the 1870s-1890s, where they had been so dominant for so long that a certain breed of officer dominated the service, ones who valued strict following of regulations & chain of command rather than taking the initiative. The men would have been trained, but the leadership lacked the capacity to react to the rapidly changing tactical situation imposed on them by mobile suits.
As for how the Federation managed to fend off Zeon, attrition and logistics are two main factors. The Zaku was a wonder weapon, but in the early days of the war they could be shot down by Federation space fighters. Sure, a Zaku could wipe out a whole squadron before a lucky shot crippled or destroyed it, but the Federation could replace those fighters and pilots faster than Zeon could replace the Zaku. Once the war reached the Earth proper, the problem got even worse for Zeon, as they had to spread their wonder weapons thin to counter the Federation armies and guerilla groups. Once spread out, the odds of them getting badly damaged or destroyed get much higher, while the difficulty of repairing damaged units gets much higher especially if the unit was deployed far from an established base (dropped into an area by a Fat Uncle, driven out on one of the large trucks etc).
>>
>>21170151
>Operation British happened a few days after the initial attacks on Sides 1, 2, 4 and possibly 6 (depending on the source).

One source says Operation British happened on Day 1 of the Initial attacks. It was clearly immediate.

>The federation fleets that were stationed at the various Sides probably didn’t have them readily available.

The Federation ships had nukes. It was the only way to respond to Zeon's Operation British (if it happened on Day 1). The Feds didn't have time to go back to base and re-stock on nukes. That takes time. Operation British happened too quickly. There was no time. Fleets had to immediately respond and just go. Which means they had nukes on board, and they were used on the Colony as Zeon tried to drop it on Earth.
>>
>>21170151
>I would like to know how the federation managed to fend off the Zeon War machine, enough to deal a big enough blow to force a stalemate.

That's the thing. In Space, The Federation didn't hold Zeon off. The Federation Space fleet was utterly destroyed. And any survivors were desperately hiding in Luna 2. But it was only a tiny amount. Zeon was even threatening to drop Luna 2 onto Earth if the Federation didn't surrender (and they could have done it too based on the manpower Zeon used for the Earth invasion).

Despite Revil's speech, Zeon still had plenty of gas left in the tank. We see it when Zeon launch an Earth invasion with roughly 250 million to 300 million people (depending on sources). That's clearly not an exhausted nation.

Where the Federation DID manage to just barely hold on was the Battle for Earth. The Federation literally were getting curbstomped by Zakus and MS IGLOO shows us them abandoning entire cities and continents. But Zeon stretched themsleves thin. 300 Million troops was not enough to control all of Earth.

And the biggest issue was that Zeon did not destroy Jaburo. This let the Federation turtle for 90% of the war, build up a huge army of GMs and new ships, then push outward against a stretched thin Zeon Earth Force. Also Zeon politics played a huge role in Zeon losing Earth. Zeon Factions did not work together.

>Some sources claimed the Zaku’s got picked off while attempting to gas colonies in attempt at another drop, or did the federation manage to use nukes or conventional weapons?

Federation used nukes during Operation British to stop the Colony. The only reason nukes worked was because the Colony is so massive that they were able to dumb fire their nukes. Missing with nukes was impossible. (Just like how Captain Bright does it during Char's Counterattack against Axis).
>>
>>21170358

Both in 'original' & Origin timelines, Operation British itself occurred on the 3rd Jan. Given the route the colony would've had to have taken from Side 2, it is possible that a fleet launched from Luna 2 would've been in a position to intercept.
Any forces based near Side 2 itself would've already been neutralised, and I strongly doubt that Zeon would've left the Side 5 forces free to attack the colony.
>>
>>21170384

Where are you getting this 300 million figure from?
Also, while it is true that Zeon did push out Federation forces out of North America & a broad swathe of Europe down into India, they never properly secured that territory, and for every curb-stomp the Zaku delivered, the Federation ground forces gave as good as they got (such as the ever popular image of a Zaku chasing a Fan-Fan only to run into a Type-61 gunline ambush).
>>
>>21170358

Operation British was an operation to move a colony from it's home in Side 5 at Lagrange point 1 to drop it on Earth. That is not a thing that can happen in one day. The attack to kill it's citizens and even fitting nuclear pulse engines probably did happen in one day; but the movement from L1 to Earth would take days, and no source I've ever seen has said otherwise. It'd really fuck with the continuity if any did, since it'd imply Zeon could attack an entire colony, do maintenance on it to move it and move it from a Lagrange point to Earth all in a fraction of the time it takes any battleship to move between those kind of locations. Which is typically portrayed as taking several days in various shows.

>>21170384

> Zeon was even threatening to drop Luna 2 onto Earth if the Federation didn't surrender (and they could have done it too based on the manpower Zeon used for the Earth invasion).

Zeon were only threatening to drop Luna 2 in the novels so far as I know; not in the animation.

> Despite Revil's speech, Zeon still had plenty of gas left in the tank.

According to who? Cause all the data books I've seen say Zeon were done in space too, and would take months to recover. Including having to cancel plans to attack Luna II to finish taking over space. Zeon had to attack Earth using troops rather than mobile suits, and commandeer Federation military units like subs specifically because they had lost so many of their mobile suits. Having lots of people is not an indication you have lots of ships or suits.

> MS IGLOO shows us them abandoning entire cities and continents.

No, it doesn't. MS IGLOO makes it clear that Zeon only made substantial gains in the handful of weeks following Operation British when the Federation was completely fucked, and that after that the Federation were able to keep things at a relative standstill for months.
>>
>>21170513
I am a different anon but t
the databooks do say Operation British happened on Jan 3rd. You may not like it but that's what they say. You can't quote the databooks and in the same breathe disregard them because you don't like it.
>>
>>21170606

I think we can all agree that Operation British began on Jan 3rd. From there, it gets fuzzy about exactly how long it took for the colony to drop. It is highly unlikely it only took 24 hours to cover the distance, given the travel times ships have been shown to have. Given that Operation British is typically listed as part of the 'One Week Battle', it taking a few days to reach Earth orbit isn't unreasonable, and that gives the Federation time to make an intercept attempt & have a running battle against the Zeon escort.
>>
>>21170606

No, the databooks say it started on January 3rd. Not that it happened entirely and completely on January 3rd.

http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/entertainmentbible39.html

> One Week Battle (Sides 1, 2, 4)
> January 3~10. The Zeon forces carried out surprise attacks on Sides 1, 2, and 4. Due to the indiscriminate use of thermonuclear and chemical weapons, almost 3 billion lives were lost, and the colonies of each Side were brought to a state of collapse. Then, on January 8~10, they executed the "colony drop" known as Operation British. As a result, 200 million people were killed on Earth as well.

> In order to achieve victory despite its meager national power, Zeon then launched an unprecedented plan that would later be known as the "colony drop." Colony 8 of Side 2, "Island Iffish," was reinforced by mobile suit and worker pods. On January 4, at 21:30 PM, the nuclear pulse engines that had been attached to the colony were activated, and it began decelerating. Pulled by Earth's gravity, it went into free fall.

> January 5, 12:00 PM. A gathering of surviving Federation vessels launched their first attack against the colony and the Zeon fleet escorting it. In this battle, the Federation Forces confirmed that Jaburo was the colony's target, and a fleet loaded with nuclear missiles was immediately dispatched from Luna II to intercept it. This hastily assembled fleet was commanded by Vice Admiral Tianem, who was then assigned to Luna II.

> From the morning of January 6 to January 8, the interception fleet repeatedly engaged Zeon's colony defense fleet. The reinforced colony, however, continued to retain its original shape despite all their nuclear missiles.
>>
> January 8, 13:15 PM. The Federation fleet began an attack operation against the fleet defending the colony. This battle was the first full-scale operation to take place since the outbreak of the war five days earlier. Although the Zeon fleet was inferior in numbers, it was able to crush the Federation fleet thanks to the actions of its mobile suits.

> By January 9, the attacks of the Federation fleet and the nuclear missile attacks from the surface had ceased.

> Colony Descent Point (Operation British)
> January 10

> During this time, the population had been reduced by an astonishing three billion. The fighting that continued from January 3 to January 10 would become known as the One Week Battle.
>>
>>21170619
>Although the Zeon fleet was inferior in numbers, it was able to crush the Federation fleet thanks to the actions of its mobile suits.
You lied earlier in the thread, and said Zeon was depleted by this operation and suffered massive losses. At least keep your facts straight. I can't trust anything you say anymore.
>>
>>21171753
Stop being a fag it’s a toy commercial
>>
>>21172032
you wandered into the wrong neighborhood, if you want normie talk go back to r/gundam
>>
>>21171753

It's almost like different sources say different things. No source I've ever seen says that Operation British was enacted and completed in one day though. It's called the One Week Battle for a start. If you disagree though, then feel free to post a source saying it all happened in one day rather than starting in one specific day.
>>
>>21172440
>No source I've ever seen
Here's the take away you are missing: You aren't all knowing and you aren't the referee hete. You should be proving stuff to us. Not us to you. From what I can read here anons were discussing nukes, and you or some other anon busted into thread screaming about Federation not using nukes. If everyone believes or at least deeply suspects the Federation used nukes then it's on you to prove everyone wrong.

>It's called the One Week Battle for a start.
Yes because various intense battles that took place over the course of a week that destroyed half of humanity. Operation British was just one part of it. It was a week of absolute unbridled destruction.

>Operation British was enacted and completed in one day though.
Why not? Travel times in Gundam are always ambiguous. Plus they use future technology. Not 1960s rockets. I'm pretty sure a Musai with nuclear engines can go fast. And a Colony with massive nuclear pulse engines can go extrenely fast if you don't care human life, don't care about slowing it down before it hits Earth, and just want to create a massive bullet to slam into the planet. Turn on the Colony Nuclear Pulse Engines, point it at Earth, and fire the nuclear engines non-stop without a care.
>>
>>21172482

> You aren't all knowing and you aren't the referee hete.

Why do you think I include provisos like "I've ever seen" in the first place anon?

> You should be proving stuff to us. Not us to you.

And I have. Repeatedly.

> If everyone believes or at least deeply suspects the Federation used nukes then it's on you to prove everyone wrong.

I've also done this, to at least a reasonable degree, by pointing at multiple official sources in animation and data books, and pointing out that even professional translators working directly for Sunrise agree. Additionally, when someone cited the novels as supporting the idea I also proved that wrong. I cannot reasonably cite every single source in existence since there are quite literally thousands of them across a dozen or more mediums, and there wouldn't be room in the entire thread even if I had access to them all. What piloting can do is point at prominent examples across a variety of sources, and accept the possibility of being wrong by asking for and accepting cited/sourced counter examples. Which no-one has provided.

If you want to believe or suspect they used them despite that then there's nothing else I can do about your head canon. Your belief or suspicion isn't supported by anything though. Again, unless you prove it.

> Yes because various intense battles that took place over the course of a week that destroyed half of humanity. Operation British was just one part of it. It was a week of absolute unbridled destruction.

Again, basically every source that goes into detail agrees that the destruction of the Sides happened in one day and the week part was a rolling battle surrounding Operation British. Which I have provided a source for. Someone said "I've seen a source saying Operation British only took one day", which I don't think it dies, since I suspect it just says it started on a specific day, but if such a source exists then go ahead and post it. It's conceptually possible as you say.
>>
>>21171753

Both the Zeon fleet crushing the Federation fleet and the Zeon fleet being heavily depleted by the battle can be true at the same time.
As for 'massive losses', that is typically associated with the Battle of Loum, rather than Operation British. Depending on the source, Loum was either Zeon attempting a second drop but being forced to abandon the plans because of their losses, or a trap they set for the Federation which turned out to be incredibly costly for Zeon fleet.
>>
>>21170513
>No, it doesn't. MS IGLOO makes it clear that Zeon only made substantial gains in the handful of weeks following Operation British when the Federation was completely fucked, and that after that the Federation were able to keep things at a relative standstill for months.
We literally had an episode of MS IGLOO where Earth tanks are running away from the battlefield and the other soldiers are yelling at tankers in frustration.

>Zeon had to attack Earth using troops rather than mobile suits
What?? They sent both mobile suits and regular soldiers to Earth. You can't just ONLY send Mobile suits to Earth. You need troops, Support personnel, Maintenance technicians, etc. A mobile suit can't stealthily patrol streets at night. A mobile suit can't enter homes or buildings. There are limits to what mobile suits can do. Just like tanks can't do everything in real life either. Your statement is just crazy.

>and commandeer Federation military units like subs specifically because they had lost so many of their mobile suits.
What??? No. Zeon took the Federation's subs and Naval fleet because they were essentially sitting in port at California Base. This base was a major construction factory and maintenance dock for the entire Federation Navy for Earth. Imagine dozens of submarines and ships just sitting in dock. Zeon got them all for free
>>
>>21172837
Jesus you loser get over your self
>>
>>21173600
Thanks for admitting I'm right.



Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.