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We MP Gundam MkIIs now
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>>20548225
Isn't that just he GM II?
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>>20548225
>more mark 2s
For what reason?
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>>20548243
Because Dad needs love too.
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>>20548239
>>
>Mark II in Thunderbolt

That doesn't even make sense, weren't they made only before the beginning of Zeta or something?
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>>20548263
Thunderbolt not canon
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>>20548263
it's UC AU, the manga is more AU than the anime
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>>20548263
>weren't they made only before the beginning of Zeta or something?
Well, what's the time period in TB by now? I know the story goes beyond the OYW.
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>>20548256
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>>20548312
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>>20548225
>>20548256
Oh boy, another Gundam for Io to wreck five minutes after he gets it.
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>>20548312
> CHADS
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>>20548239
The GM II predates the MKII. The mass produced MKII would be the GM III.
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>>20548239
Are you that GM II fag that ruins every thread
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>>20548225
>>20548256
>>20548263
If this doesn’t convince people thunderbolt is AU UC and is absolutely non canon then I don’t know
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>>20548225
How many volumes is this gonna end on? I got some cash to blow and kinda want to scan it.
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>>20548263
Not exactly, there's the Proto MK-II that was stupidly high spec, but was comically expensive. That being said this it got made some time after the Titans got made so it's still too soon.
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>>20548516
20 to 22 volumes he wanted to finish the series.
We're on vol. 19
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>>20548349
I always thought the Jegan was a mass produced Mk2, since they have the same backpack and vulcan pod and had a similar track record of good but not great performance against ZZ era suits. The GMIII just ate shit too much
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So we're actually getting the not-Zeta arc? Does that mean the not-Lalah with Io right now is going to be his Fa too? Will Karla go full Reccoa?
Wait, I was joking, but we're really going to get a Gundam Thunderbolt aren't we?
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>>20548276
Dunno if they've crossed in 81 yet. The entire Earth arc was set during the back half of 80.
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>>20548565
The Jegan basically is an MP MK2 though it also has elements from the GM iii and nemo(ironically the nemo has better armor as it’s made of gundarium but lacks the movable frame the jegan has)
>>
Daryl is currently invincible unless the writer makes him lose on purpose. Awakened Newtype, extreme piloting experience, upgraded Reuse P Device, piloting the best MS available plus riding a MA that can solo fleets.
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>>20548584
Meh. It'll be a double knock out kill and we all know it.
Psyco Mk2 isn't even the best though. They were getting shredded all over the place in the last several chapters. Right now Daryl is just piloting a Mk2 wearing FAGs armor and attached to an old Braw Bro.
Anaheim is rolling out Gundam Mk2s like 6 years ahead of schedule. Tech is absolutely fucked already.
>>
>>20548565
>>20548573
The GM III has a clone of the Mark II's backpack. Jegan backpack has those thruster struts up top but a different nozzle arrangement than the Mark II.

>nemo(ironically the nemo has better armor as it’s made of gundarium but lacks the movable frame the jegan has)
Nemo has movable frame.
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>>20548594
Anaheim presidente already confirmed Gundam tech+Reuse P Device makes the ultimate MS, so he wants the P Device for himself.

Perfect Gundam only got in a pinch because of a gimmick that made his thrusters malfunction, else he has destroyed everything else efortlessly
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>>20548601
Oh shit your right the nemo does have one. Never knew that, always assumed it had a frame similar to regular suits.
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>>20548611
To be honest, the Zeta Gundam tech development is a little fucked these days, even Rick Dias has a partial movable frame.
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>>20548619
If that’s the case there wouldn’t have been a point in capturing the mark 2 as that had the revolutionary technology in the first place, plus the nemos were presumably already being developed at that time
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>>20548628
Mark II still has the distinction of being the first MS with full body perfected movable frame, and Anaheim apparently still needed to study it to speed up their understanding and ability to build their own full movable frames, since the Hyaku Shiki comes out like 2 weeks after AE reverse engineers one of the spare Mark IIs.
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>>20548312
Wait, so Io's family company is making the Mk II now instead of the federation and Franklin Biden?
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>>20548565
>>20548573
The Jegan is actually an entirely new MS developed by engineers from both the federation and AE, and is supposed to be as agile as high-end MS from the Gryps era. The GM III on the other hand shares nearly 1/3 of its parts with the Mk II, some with the GM II, or at least are compatible with GM II production lines in some way, with the rest being new parts. It's fairly substantial.

Entertainment Bible makes the Jegan look kinda shit for some reason even though various other sources say it's basically the standard setter of its era. Gundam Mechanics for example puts its thrust/mass ratio closer to 1.45 which is far more reasonable than the 1.1 thrust/mass given by EB, and just a little off compared to the Mk II.
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>>20548668
If you go by fluff AE was playing around with a bunch of technologies, like transforming frames and their version of the movable frame, but were never able to fully figure out either of them. Getting their hands on the Mk II and Kamille's Zeta Gundam blueprint basically solved all of their problems and they shat out a bunch of new suits in what seems to be a matter of a few weeks or so. The timeline puts the start of Zeta in March 0087, and the deployment of the Nemo and Marasai (both movable frame equipped suits, even with similar specs) in April, so about a month later.

https://web.archive.org/web/20150122231511/http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php

If you also add Advance of Zeta into the mix you have suits like the Rosette, which is basically an advanced Hizack that resembles a proto Marasai, it would explain how AE developed the movable frame equipped marasai so quickly. They already had two base designs, the Rosette and the Mk II to work with to speed up development. It's my conjecture that a lot of the more basic suits in Zeta could just be Mk-II frame clones with different armor and equipment replacing some of the parts.
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>>20548416
why on earth do people care lol
>>
Better than moon gundam
>>
quick rundown on the current state of the story in the manga?
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>>20548769
autistic wikia-diving retards care
>>
So whatever happened to the scanlations of this manga
Am I better off waiting for official translations?
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>>20549981
Cease and desist meant that they had to stop scanlating. Viz went hard for this release, apparently.
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>>20548516
Scan? Who the fuck scans shit when you can just crack ebooks.
>>
>>20550090
Well damn, are they at least releasing chapters at a decent rate? I hate leaving it up to official releases since a lot of them tend to drag their feet with it.
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>>20550096
Vol 17 comes out in English in Feb and Japan releases Feb 19.
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>>20548674
No, not according to the English summary that is available. It's Anaheim.
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>>20548769
It's just an issue of trying to fit it in the broader timeline
>Why don't they pull Amuro out of his mansion if shit is this serious
>What's Char even doing
>Do Jamitov, Bask, and Haman not even care about the superweapons being developed by fucking monks
>Did Nina just stop making robots
>Why didn't all this super tech show up in Zeta? Feddie Zeong and Cripple Zaku's gotta be better than a Gaza
All these questions don't matter at all, especially to Thunderbolt by itself, but trying to fit it into the UC just raises too many questions. Better to just isolate it
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>>20550206
I have no idea who's trying to fit this into UC canon, but I sure as hell ain't. Is it so hard for people to think of it as an AU or its own thing altogether?
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>>20550238
Not at all, I'm just going through my thought process when I was first saw Thunderbolt
>Oh that's cool a other post-OYW series
>Wait this doesn't make sense
Was how I eventually settled for it being an AU
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>>20550274
the idea of series made decades apart by different people being "canon" to each other by some tenuous meta copyright connection is stupid anyway.
>>
So what happened with the big fight being set up previously, with Daryl in a Psyco Zaku/Braw Bro Dendrobium type unit, while Io was piloting a Neo Zeong with the aid of a Newtype?
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>>20550096
They don't do chapter releases, only Volumes
They're only 1 volume behind on the translations
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>>20550274
Thunderbolt starts during the latter half of the OYW. The first part could work as a UC timeline story but the subsequent parts can't because they do random schizo shit all the time
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>>20550571
No, they aren't, they're two volumes behind. Don't give me that shit that Volume 19 isn't out in Japan yet, that's irrelevant since there's enough chapters out now to make up another. Viz is two volumes behind.
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>>20550090
>Viz went hard for this release
Gundam manga still gets an official release? I thought that died with Tokyopop.
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>>20550751
If you want to call it that. Origin, Glory and Thunderbolt are all super subpar quality American releases.
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>>20548584
>starts with being muh gritty edgy child soldier grim darkness of UC
>ends up being muh strong independent gary stu in super MA/protoype MSs
Thunderbolt is hilariously kino
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>>20548225
People called me crazy for predicting the RX-178 would appear
Apologize
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>>20548594
>It'll be a double knock out kill
The Zeon wank is what puts of me off of reading Thunderbolt. I'm so tired of Zeon's shenanigans, I just want some Gundam material where they get dunked on and humiliated for committing genocide. Normally I don't believe in outright cruelty, but then again they did genocide countless many people. I think that pretty much tips the scales in favor of Zeon deserving comeuppance for escalating a petty disagreement far beyond what it ever should've been.

Does Thunderbolt ever get to that point, or does the manga jerk Daryl off the entire time?
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>>20550847
>Thunderbolt
>zeonwank
That's a good joke. Zeon exists literally to just get betrayed constantly and blown up. They aren't even involved anymore beyond getting invaded by buddhist monks.
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>>20550500
Daryl kills a bunch of Feddies.
Io and the Trust squad kill tons of Daryl's friends.
Spartan lands on the moon.
Proto Gundam Mk2 development.
You're not getting Nise Gundam versus Thunder Zeong.
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>>20550881
>Zeon exists
This shouldn't even be a thing.
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>>20550764
Do you have a single reason to say that other than being inexplicably desperate to justify piracy to random people on the internet
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>>20550886

Did both units survive? Will Io and the Newtype be fielding in the Zeong again, or will he probably be getting a Mk II?
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>>20548533
Thanks
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>>20550956
It's their shit releases that prevent licensing of other titles. Plain and simple.
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>>20551022
It wasn't a challenge to say something stupid enough to actually surprise me
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>>20551053
Then by all means, enlighten both myself and everyone else here as to why they're haven't been more Gundam titles released in America. Oh great wise one.
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>>20551116
Friend, that's the troll that's been spamming the board. You're just being baited.
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>>20550764
>Origin
>subpar quality

try harder
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>>20551116
What could they bring over that would any manage to make anyone outside of weirdo gunota on this board care enough to buy a volume?
Please tell me why the newest Astray or random OYW sidestory manga is more sellable than Thunderbolt or Origin
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>>20551201
The translation you ass bandit.

>>20551268
Because neither performed well for the companies. I posted a lot of the NPD BookScan data on here a while back to show how poorly and underperforming they were.
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>>20550606
If it's not out, it's not out
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>>20551287
There are much better selling manga with shitty translations. In general only a fraction of the manga audience gives a fuck about translation quality be it licensed or ESL MTL scanlations.
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>>20550959
Neither one got shot down. They just fucked off after blowing up parts of an enemy fleet.
Going straight to Anaheim and having the Flemming company being involved probably means we're going to get a Thunderbolt Gundam or Gundam Zeus or some shit to follow up Atlas.
Nise Gundam was only put together to infiltrate the Federation base so they'll probably strip it back down and put the Psyco Mk2 armor back on it.
We still need to see Daryl's reaction to half his friends getting killed by Trust and the Spartans iirc.
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>>20551322
Citation needed for manga outside of Gundam with a "shitty translation"
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>>20551379
Perfect Gundam is an actual upgrade to the Psyco Zaku Mk II with better armor and maneuverability, no reason to remove the armor.
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>>20551383
Can you give me a citation you have a brain?
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>>20551424
Yes, a shitty fan translation. Good job.
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>>20551431
Didn't think so
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>>20551387
So you're saying that Psyco Mk2 has worse armor than Psyco Zaku and Full Armor Gundam? Because Nise Gundam is just outfitted with the refit from Full Armor Gundam. It isn't new shit.
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>>20550847
>I just want some Gundam material where they get dunked on and humiliated
So you mean like nearly every piece of fundamental media ever? (Excluding video games)
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>>20551742
Gundam* can’t stand autocorrect
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>>20551379
>We still need to see Daryl's reaction to half his friends getting killed by Trust and the Spartans iirc.
To be honest, the Spartans blew up Two whole colonies to kill some Zakus. That is some ridiculous massive casualty losses
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>>20550847
>The Zeon wank is what puts of me off of reading Thunderbolt. I'm so tired of Zeon's shenanigans, I just want some Gundam material where they get dunked on and humiliated

You just don't seem to get Gundam or the One Year War. If Zeon is supposed to be a *legitimate threat* that takes over almost ALL of space and 2/3rds of the Earth...then they need to actually be Powerful enough to credibly do it.

Zeon are a smaller force. If you have Zeon getting massacred by the Feds, then it makes NO sense (to the audience) for Zeon to have almost conquered everyone in the first place. Weaklings don't conquer.

The Federation only won the war because of sheer fucking numbers, and their tenacity to turn their population into meat paste ....as long as it meant jamming up the gears of the Zeon War Machine.

The Federation were throwing children into war. You had kids sometimes as young as 8 years old fighting guerilla tactics against Zakus. Sometimes only armed with a bazooka and nothing else.

When the Fed army was smashed in battle, Zeon told them to surrender. The Federation said "Fuck you Zeon. Hell no. Your gonna have to kill us all". Then Feds grabbed Civilians as human shields and hostages.

Zeon were horrified at the lengths Federation went to refuse to surrender. If the war had dragged on, it would not surprise me if the Federation started strapping bombs to grandmas and using them to suicide bomb Zakus. It would not surprise me if the Federation would give babies beam rifles. The Federation leadership were THAT fucking determined not to surrender.

Instead of whining about how you can't jerk off and orgasm to Zeon not being murdered by the Federation like it was gore porn....you should be saluting the sheer fucking tenacity and perseverance of the Federation to not give up no matter how low their population goes.

The Federation had 12 billion people on Earth. If it hypothetically took 11 billion dead to beat Zeon. They would pay the cost. No hesitation.
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Fuck a rundown, where can I read it online? Japanese or English.
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>>20551874
You can buy the magazine from Amazon Japan.
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>>20551874
No one translates it anymore. VIZ threatened legal action against the 2 groups that were translating it.
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>>20550847

I just want a Gundam work that actually engages with the destruction of the Sides in a meaningful way, where we get insight into why people supported Zeon and what they thought of the atrocities Zeon committed. Frankly, I think it's kind of stupid that the implication the original show gave that Side 3 was conscripting people to fight the war has been abandoned and now there's no end of diehards who refuse to let go of Zeon; but if you're going to do that then at least let me know why.

>>20551867

There is a good bit of inaccuracy in this post. Starting with

> The Federation only won the war because of [...] their tenacity to turn their population into meat paste

Zeon were the one turning the population into paste, not the Federation. Hence all the massacres of the various Sides, and the colony drop.

> The Federation were throwing children into war.

Both sides were using children. One of the first lines in the show is about how both sides are using child soldiers, which was mostly because desperate people were lining up to save their own lives or get revenge and not because either side were actively recruiting those people. When the White Base brings a couple of actual kids to Jaburo, the Federation tries to put them in daycare and the crew of the White Base are the ones that refuse it.

> When the Fed army was smashed in battle, Zeon told them to surrender. The Federation said

"Where do we sign?" They changed their mind, but only because Revil escaped from Side 3 and gave a speech letting everyone know Zeon was running on fumes too.
>>
> The Federation had 12 billion people on Earth.

No, they didn't. They population of the entire Earthsphere in the UC00590 was 11 billion according to setting notes that are drastically different to the show we got in multiple ways, with more than 9 billion of that in colonies (i.e. only about 2 billion Earth); but no number is given after that. The population probably grew a bit in the intervening 20 years, but the numbers were also not growing by over 10 billion on Earth alone. There were probably more like 3 billion on Earth, of which around a billion probably died in the colony drop and it's aftermath. So it's more like 2 billion to throw at the war on Earth, not 12 billion.
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>>20551915
Nah bruv. Zeon was getting like 10 to 1 or even 20 to 1 kill ratios in favor of Zeon. Look at all those dead feddie tankers and ground army
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>>20551915
>where we get insight into why people supported Zeon and what they thought of the atrocities Zeon committed.

No one cares. It's a similar reason to how no one cares that the United States of America illegally overthrew Hawaii's legitimate government known as the Kingdom of Hawaii. And the US Military took over the islands.

It's like how China wants to take over Taiwan and the US condemns that. But the US is okay with conquering Hawaii because they needed a military base in the Pacific Ocean.
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>>20551933

What part of my post are you even disagreeing with?

>>20551941

The distinction there is that I'm not watching a story about Hawaii in WWII, so of course I don't care about that. If I was watching a story specifically about Hawaii in WWII then I'd probably want the context of why the people involved care about it.
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>>20551947
>>20551947
>The distinction there is that I'm not watching a story about Hawaii in WWII, so of course I don't care about that. If I was watching a story specifically about Hawaii in WWII then I'd probably want the context of why the people involved care about it.

The One Year War is literally based off the the WW2 Pacific War. Loum is an analog for Hawaii and Pearl Harbor. Or if you prefer, Side 7 is Pearl Harbor. Especially with the Space Battles being based off the WW2 island hopping strategy used for beating Japan.
>>
>>20551955

It doesn't matter, because it being based on it doesn't actually make Hawaii relevant to Mobile Suit Gundam's story. Your analogies for Hawaii in the story are fucking awful, by the way. Neither Loum or Side 7 are very good ones, since, for a start, neither are surprise attacks. Which is the thing that defines Pearl Harbor. Nor does either bring the Federation into an existing war; the other major point about Pearl Harbor. If anything is Pearl Harbor it's the attack on Sides 1, 2 and 4, since those were at least surprise attacks; but those were mostly civilian structures and not military ones. So it's still a shit analogy.
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>>20551941
>No one cares
Have you ever met any hawaiians? They care a lot, so do leftists
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>>20551904
I dont mean translated. Are there digital online copies?
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>>20551904
There was only ever one group translating it. Christ you idiots believe anything that's typed on here.
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>>20552505
fuck off, deacon
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>>20552514
Holy shit why does every anon think Deacon posts here anymore?
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>>20548619
Dr. Bidan saw potential in the Rick Dias, I think that makes sense for the Rick Dias not being a fully movable frame unit but still having some of the frame properties utilized in a way he hadn't considered or that seem novel.

Rick Dias being in that transitional period of development is pretty on point for the time period it's in. A step in a good direction but not necessarily a great leap forward.
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>>20550912
Basked and Titanpilled.
>>
Wouldn't they be Alexes given the timeline? Granted I have no idea
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>>20548225
Predict how much of a clusterfuck the Super Gundam will be
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>>20552920
Mk II+Super Defensor+Mega Launcher+Mega Rider

The Anti-AOZ
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>>20551867
Zeon was able to massacre the Feddies in the OYW due to having massed mobile suits. That's it, once the Feddies got it, things should have evened out. It's even depicted to be like that in the OG, where you have Feddie and Zeon mobile suits being depicted as nearly evenly trading off with each other. Not to mention total non NT novices like Kai and Hayato were able to hold their own
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>>20551867
>Zeon are a smaller force
Wrong. Basically every data book puts zeon as having way more MS. The federation only has more battleships (almost none of which are equipped to properly carry and service MS) and support craft like balls and small fighters or tanks.

B-Club for examples says there were 4,000 zaku IIs (MS-06) made to 3,800 GMs. That's not even including all of the other Zeon MS, which were presumably made in the hundreds or low thousands, and zaku Is, which were a different line. Some sources put Zaku IIs + Is at a liberal 8,000 total. 3,800 GMs seems to the highest given by any source.

Other sources like the MG GM manual suggests there were 4 GM production runs in the OYW. The first two batches made 42 and 288 GMs, including base types and some variants, for a total of a measly 330 total GMs. The other 2 productions are unknown, but the 4th production run was mostly produced at the captured California base so it's unlikely to be very many, but let's say each run added another 330 for 990 GMs. You could even double the production every time if you want, so let's say 2,310 GMs made in total, unlikely but let's say that's the case.

The MG Zaku and Zaku FZ manuals say there were 3,200 MS-06 machines (all variants) produced. And 800 Zaku Is. Various sources put Goufs and Doms in the hundreds of machines produced. There were around 120 gelgoogs produced.

The federation even at its peak was at a MASSIVE disadvantage.
>>
>>20551867
>If you have Zeon getting massacred by the Feds
Except that's exactly what happened at ABQ. The federation had half their attacking forces wiped out by the colony laser according to characters in the show, supposedly equal to 1/3 of the EFSF fleet. AND they were besieging a fortified target with pilots who, at most, had fought at Solomon, the only major battle with GMs deployed en masse (since Luna II was the primary production center, Jaburo would have only been early productions), and they still beat Zeon.

>You had kids sometimes as young as 8 years old fighting guerilla tactics against Zakus
Most of those were native guerillas. People like Kiki and Reccoa were part of their native and colony resistance forces respectively.

>Then Feds grabbed Civilians as human shields and hostages.
Only started happening in revisionist manga in the mid 2000s. Basically all the setting/databooks say Zeon unilaterally attacked Sides 1, 2, and 4 within days (or even same day) of declaring war. What civilians are there to grab when no one even knows what happened when a fleet of zeek ships blasts your colony into oblivion, killing billions within the first week of the attack?

>Zeon were horrified at the lengths Federation went to refuse to surrender
No they weren't. Most of the majority of the deaths occurred in the first week of Zeon's attack. Killing everyone was part of the plan from the start which Gihren confirms in the show and outright says his plan to bring humanity's population down to a manageable level is complete.
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A quick rundown: https://nitter.net/zeonicscans/status/1482070231728148482
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>>20553659
Hold on, that's slightly misleading. Total production numbers are not the same as how many forces they have available, have concentrated in specific areas, or are ready to deploy at any given time. E.g., the famous Tiger I tank had a total of ~1300 built according to production numbers, but the most operational at once was only around 670 in July 1944 and that was spread across Europe on two war fronts. The numbers only got lower from there.

In either case, Zeon had been producing Zakus for over a year while the Feds had only been building GMs for 1 to 2 months. Whichever number you take, whether it's 3200 GMs or 330 GMs, we can assume a lower but close number of GMs were able to be deployed near the end of the war as they were made in the last two months. On the other hand, that production number of 4000 total Zaku IIs spread out over at least a year's worth of time including before the war, Zeon absolutely does not still have 4000 Zakus operational and ready to deploy at the end. It could be anywhere from 25% to 75% of that number.
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>>20553675
Otto Fleming (Io's father) and Andy Wellington (Anaheim's current director) were both part of the very first expedition to mine Helium-3 from Jupiter around UC 0045 (AE built the Jupitris-class), with Otto as mission commander.

This doesn't fit the "canon" calendar, by the way.
>>
>>20553675
FUCK OFF DEACON
>>
>>20553696
The journey to Jupiter changed Otto. Although he used his fortune and technical expertise to build and manage Side 4, Mua, his true passion was building an ark on Von Braun City, to protect and eventually recover Earth's ravished ecology.
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>>20553699
When the One Year War breaks out and Mua is destroyed, Otto loses hope in humankind and commits suicide.
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>>20553703
Andy continues Otto's mission, with the same caveats:

>I've made up my mind.
>Humanity is foolish and not worthy of hope.
>In order to protect the light of hope, we need the mighty power of the giants that ...... humanity has surrendered to.
>>
>>20553689
>but close number of GMs were able to be deployed near the end of the war as they were made in the last two months
That's actually a good case for why they wouldn't have been heavily deployed.

California Base was only recaptured in december 0079, but it was operational for the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th runs (4th was majority produced at california). I doubt most of the 3rd and 4th runs made it to space. Not to mention the fact that this is GMs in general, including specialty types like the Desert GM, Armored GM, GM Sniper Custom, GM Sniper II, etc. which were reserved for special conditions or ace pilots, of which the federation had very few.

You're also forgetting about Goufs, Rick/Doms, amphibious MS, MAs, and more from Zeon, all of which were produced in the last few months of the war but had substantially more time to stock up on than GMs.
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>>20548239
>>20548349
>>20548565
>>20548573
>>20548706
GM II is the old, outdated RGM-79 with some minor upgrades: woefully inadequate for the battlefield during the Gryps conflict.

GM III is a mass produced Gundam Mk-II: same backpack and can even use the G-Defenser.

Jegan, being an Anaheim product, is directly derived from the Nemo.
>>
So many of you all are missing the point. The Federation got their ass beat by Zeon for most of the war. The Feds held on through numerical superiority, and just having a lot more troops than Zeon.

Then when the Feds started mass producing their own mobile suits in the final months of the war is when the Federation was able to turn things around. But that was at least 7 to 8 months after the war started.

The other anon is saying you should respect the Federation's toughness to be able to hold out for that long. And I agree with that idea. The Federation could have folded and surrendered during those 8 months of waiting for the GM to come. But they didn't. They fought tooth and nail to survive.

In modern terms, it's like if one side had tanks and the other side didn't. But the side without any tanks held on for months and months with just some bazookas and determination.

Respect the Federation.
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>>20552505
You never read the anony/m/ous releases of Thunderbolt?
They may not have been as official as Zeonic. But sometimes they were faster.
We even had some wonky machine translated HK subs sometimes get released too.
Your knowledge is outdated and incorrect.
>>
>>20551979
>Neither Loum or Side 7 are very good ones, since, for a start, neither are surprise attacks.
Loum was a surprise in that the Federation had little no idea that Zeon would use mobile suits, nor how powerful Zeon MS were. Zakus almost destroyed the entire Federation Space Fleet.

Side 7 was definitely a surprise attack. No one expected Zeon to attack the Colony. Much less Char himself.

>Which is the thing that defines Pearl Harbor.
Contrary to popular belief, America knew of a potential possibility of a Japanese attack.

American intelligence had cracked some of the Japanese codes. They had intercepted multiple messages and knew that the Japanese Naval Fleet was gearing up for war, and potentially headed for Hawaii.

However, America was still in isolationist mode and war declaring war was not popular. Pre-emptively striking the Japanese first would be wildly unpopular.

The common grunt soldier may not have known about the Japanese attacking, but some people in leadership positions knew it was a possibility.
>>
>>20553784

> Loum was a surprise in that the Federation had little no idea that Zeon would use mobile suits

They definitely expected it, because Zeon had used mobile suits to destroy Sides 1, 2 and 4 in the previous few days. What wasn't expected was what a great force multiplier mobile suits would be compared to ships.

> Side 7 was definitely a surprise attack.

Multiple people on the White Base talk about how a Zeon ship has followed them, and some of the folks in Side 7 complain about how the White Base has led the war to them. So no, it was not remotely a surprise.

> Contrary to popular belief, America knew of a potential possibility of a Japanese attack.

Which doesn't make the actual attack at that time and on that date a surprise that managed to overwhelm the base due to shock. Knowing something is "possible" eventually does not mean you know when or how it will happen.
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>>20553707
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=14896

According to this, California base is only mentioned for the 4th production run. I don't doubt that there's plenty of GM variants that stayed on Earth, but Luna II is a major production centre as well and could have built a couple hundred units of their own.

>You're also forgetting about Goufs, Rick/Doms, amphibious MS, MAs, and more from Zeon, all of which were produced in the last few months of the war but had substantially more time to stock up on than GMs.
Eh, they're more around the middle of the war so there was lots of time to produce them, Goufs are dated to I think March 0079 and Doms in June or July. Also like the land combat GMs you mentioned, most of these don't make it into space and aside from the Rick Dom and maybe the Bigro, aren't produced in large numbers.

>ace pilots, of which the federation had very few
Honestly I'm not really sure anymore. Manga and other stories will invent as many ace pilots as they need to. If anything, the usual storytelling is that by the end of the war Zeon more or less mirrors WWII Germany in that they have experienced troops but not a lot of reserves to switch them out and reinforce with, so their pool of ace pilots are slowly dying out. On the other hand the Feds have a larger manpower reserve and are starting to build out a strong base for their MS pilot corps so their number of aces are small but will slowly rise despite casualties.
>>
>>20553794
>because Zeon had used mobile suits to destroy Sides 1, 2 and 4
I thought it was canonical that Zakus were first used in combat at Loum, before that they were kept away as a sort of trump card and only in utility roles.

>Multiple people on the White Base talk about how a Zeon ship has followed them, and some of the folks in Side 7 complain about how the White Base has led the war to them. So no, it was not remotely a surprise.
It's not a surprise that Zeon knows they're there, but still a surprise that they would attack. For all they know, the Musai is just tailing them for recon purposes.

>Knowing something is "possible" eventually does not mean you know when or how it will happen.
Exactly. Simply knowing that Zeon has eyes around doesn't explain how or when they'll attack, so why is Side 7 not considered a surprise attack? The security around the colony was pretty lax considering the Feds had no sentries or patrols around the colony, as if they expected complete safety at side 7.
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>>20553834
>According to this, California base is only mentioned for the 4th production run. I don't doubt that there's plenty of GM variants that stayed on Earth, but Luna II is a major production centre as well and could have built a couple hundred units of their own.
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=11881
>According to the Master Grade RGM-79 GM kit manual, "42 units for ground use were produced at Jaburo as a first production machine. Then, after minor design changes, it is said that by the end of the war 288 units of the so-called second production machine had been produced at six production bases (including the California Base that was recaptured in December of that year)." The recent Ver. 2.0 kit manual adds that "However, some theorize that these production numbers do not include pre-production machines and custom types," and observes that the loss of data during the war and the possibility of unrecorded production sites make it impossible to determine a precise production total.
>second production machine had been produced at six production bases (including the California Base that was recaptured in December of that year).
According to this the 1st production 42 were made for ground, so they likely didn't make it to space either. 2nd production was made at six bases, including California that was recaptured some time in december. That means the 2nd production ran into December. Realistically, I don't see how they could train pilots for space and also have GMs from earth (California and Jaburo, 2 known production sites) shipped to Solomon and ABQ in time. Let's say they did get a decent amount of the 3rd production into space, I highly doubt the federation had more than a few hundred GMs actually deployed in space to assault fortified positions.

Some sources also say the GM was highly unreliable due to being rushed out, so that just adds to the likelihood that Zeon probably had more MS made and deployed at any given time
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>>20553621
>It's even depicted to be like that in the OG, where you have Feddie and Zeon mobile suits being depicted as nearly evenly trading off with each other
Want to know how I know you've only watched the movies
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>>20553714
No matter how many times you say this it will never be true.
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>>20553834
Eh, they're more around the middle of the war so there was lots of time to produce them, Goufs are dated to I think March 0079 and Doms in June or July. Also like the land combat GMs you mentioned, most of these don't make it into space and aside from the Rick Dom and maybe the Bigro, aren't produced in large numbers.
According to Mark's timeline the Dom was produced in late Sept and the Rick-Dom was deployed in October, so the dom was probably deployed then as well. In the mechatalk link Mark cites 600 Doms, I don't think it would be unreasonable to say there were hundreds of Rick-Doms produced, since it was supposed to be the new mainstay of Zeon on both fronts and by the time they lost Odessa they would have known to focus more on space.
https://web.archive.org/web/20150228064404/http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/timeline.php

>Manga and other stories will invent as many ace pilots as they need to
Older sources already established the top aces and Amuro is among them, with much lower kill counts than the Zeon aces, so any aces invented after would have to be trivial. Even among the known aces I don't think many of them used the GM Sniper Custom or GM Sniper II, or had to be retconned in at some point.

>If anything, the usual storytelling is that by the end of the war Zeon more or less mirrors WWII Germany in that they have experienced troops but not a lot of reserves to switch them out and reinforce with
The federation is more or less in the same boat. They have fighter and tank pilots making the change to a totally new type of machine and fresh recruits being pushed out within one month. The gelgoog profiles like to tout that trainees were deployed but the federation is in just a bad a spot trying to make conventional pilots switch to MS for "naval" landings and close range combat, especially what with spray guns being known for having a short range. The reality is the GM and Gelgoog situations aren't that different
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>>20553853

> I thought it was canonical that Zakus were first used in combat at Loum

As far as I'm aware Zakus were used in the fighting during the destruction of the Sides. Loum was the first battle where they saw use, but they were a known element by then because they were used during fighting at the Sides.

> For all they know, the Musai is just tailing them for recon purposes.

It's unlikely to be tailing them for recon if it's visibly chasing them. If you're doing recon you generally try to hide your presence.

> so why is Side 7 not considered a surprise attack?

Are you seriously asking "why is it not a surprise that the war ship that is out in the open, it's position and relative strength a known quantity, attacking" compared to "we think they might attack, but we don't know when, using what strength etc"? There are no unknowns in the first instance, and lots in the second.

> The security around the colony was pretty lax

Because it wasn't a military colony, so there was no reason they would be any patrols at all. It was a civilian colony with a military research facility located on it, not a military base. The base was also supposed to be a secret, so open patrols kind of announce "there's something going on here"; which kind of defeats the purpose.
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>>20553716

So The Federation could have lost if the gave up early, while ZEon could have won if they played their cards right. In the end, Federation won because they stood their ground while Zeon lost because they blew their load too early and couldn't keep up the momentum.
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>>20553724
Hah! No such scans exist. Nice try.
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>>20553934
>Even among the known aces I don't think many of them used the GM Sniper Custom or GM Sniper II, or had to be retconned in at some point.
Tenneth Jung is one of those aces with a GM Sniper Custom, but given how late in the war those things appeared, he probably achieved most of his killmarks using other suits.
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>>20554038
Yes, some anons posted lower quality MTL scans of Gundam Thunderbolt when it first came out back in in the early 2010s. And No... the current 4chan archive doesn't go back that far.

Honestly, why is this such a big freaking deal to you? An extra manga translation group doesn't change anything. You are acting pretty anal over such a small unimportant fact.

"Nooo... There were only 2 fansub groups! Not 3!!!" <------ This is you. Literally who cares.

I can't fathom why this matters to you or why we are having this debate about it.
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>>20553942
>It's unlikely to be tailing them for recon if it's visibly chasing them. If you're doing recon you generally try to hide your presence.
Recon doesn't necessitate stealth, just that it helps. A warship following an enemy ship doesn't necessarily indicate intent or a promise to open fire, sometimes it's simply not possible for a warship in open space to follow another traveling through open space without hiding their presence.

>Are you seriously asking "why is it not a surprise that the war ship that is out in the open, it's position and relative strength a known quantity, attacking" compared to "we think they might attack, but we don't know when, using what strength etc"? There are no unknowns in the first instance, and lots in the second.
What you are describing is completely wrong. Char's Musai didn't open fire or attack immediately, it was not a combat pursuit. They let the White Base arrive unmolested, and waited until a specific moment before committing to any military actions beyond following the White Base.

>Because it wasn't a military colony, so there was no reason they would be any patrols at all. It was a civilian colony with a military research facility located on it, not a military base. The base was also supposed to be a secret, so open patrols kind of announce "there's something going on here"; which kind of defeats the purpose.
You're joking, right? The White Base openly docked there, it was not disguised as a civilian ship. The fact that it's even going there already defeats the purpose of it being a secret. By the way, having zero observation outside of the colony doesn't count towards "we think they might attack, but we don't know when, using what strength etc"? They didn't even notice anything was wrong until Zakus were literally on the scene firing at the unprotected Project V equipment. They clearly had no idea when the Musai might start making moves since they didn't even notice that the Musai sent Zakus into the colony.
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>>20553999
>So The Federation could have lost if the gave up early, while ZEon could have won if they played their cards right. In the end, Federation won because they stood their ground while Zeon lost because they blew their load too early and couldn't keep up the momentum.
Pretty much.

I'll just add that the Feds stood their ground very hard, and dug in heroically. They were fighting against 18 meter weapons of destruction that the World had never seen before.

Zeon could have won if they were wiser. But blew their load multiple times before getting the job done.
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>>20548239
The GMII doesn't have a movable frame so no.
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>>20548225
Looks weaker and stiffer than Gundam Atlas.
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>>20554076
I have a constant archive of 4chan of every thread since 2008. The only ones posted were from that shithead at zeonic. No other MTL started. Lie more why don't you.

Besides, that other anon was we talking about more recent chapters. That was a lie propagated earlier on and only goes to show how fucking gullible you fucktards really are here.
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>>20554151
>I have a constant archive of 4chan of every thread since 2008.
Every single thread since 2008? Different anon here but what a load nonsense. You might have some threads but not every single thread since 2008.
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>>20554163
How else do you think someone has an innocuous screenshot from so long ago? To call out people when they spouted a lot of bullshit?
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>>20553714
The GMIII is a refit of the GMII, which is a refit of the original GM. The GMIII package makes it much closer to the Mk.II but calling an expanded weapons and maneuvering kit a "Mass Production Mk.II" is a wide stretch
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>>20553918
You already made an ass of yourself two months ago with your hostility, so cut it out: https://desuarchive.org/m/thread/20403108

Jegans are direct derivatives of the Nemo, with both being Anaheim products.
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>>20554488
>The GMIII package makes it much closer to the Mk.II but calling an expanded weapons and maneuvering kit a "Mass Production Mk.II" is a wide stretch
It is a "mass production Mk.II" in the same sense as the original GM is a "mass production RX-78": a simplified unit to be built in large numbers that incorporates the most recent technological advances.
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>>20554079

> A warship following an enemy ship doesn't necessarily indicate intent or a promise to open fire

It might not mean that in peace time, but if you are in an on-going war with someone and one of their ships is openly following one of your ships then it definitely implies intent and you would have to be a fool to think "nah, they're probably just tailing us to see where we're going".

> Char's Musai didn't open fire or attack immediately

It also wasn't in combat range until after they docked, so it couldn't open fire immediately after starting pursuit. Dialogue even refers to how the White Base hoped to outrun them, but couldn't lose it.

> You're joking right?

No, and it's worth remembering that the colonies were primarily but as civilian structures, so any particular one can be assumed to be a civilian structure unless specified otherwise. Not only that, but Side 7 wasn't even close to finished and only one cylinder had been built before the war broke out and all construction stopped. Which is unlikely to have been a military facility. The nearby Luna II that the construction was using to source raw materials was converted to a military facility, while no-one ever refers to anything but a military research base in Side 7. The reason the White Base was going there in the first place was to do testing.

We also know from Zeon dialogue that Side 7 was thought of as an unlikely place to house anything of value, which just adds to the picture that Side 7 wasn't seen as a military base. Never mind all those civilians living there that the White Base takes on as refugees afterwards.

> They didn't even notice anything was wrong until Zakus were literally on the scene firing at the unprotected Project V equipment.

One of the first scenes in the episode is Fraw going to get Amuro so they can go to a shelter, when she tells him there have been military broadcasts and sirens to ask people to evacuate. They absolutely knew something was likely to happen.
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>>20554488
The GM III is supposedly actually a newly designed machine according to the HGUC manual, while the GM II was just a minor update to the GM, but it was designed for compatibility with GM II parts. So refitting GM IIs into IIIs was a big deal.
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>>20554151
Yeah I doubt that. Not even the the main archival sites we use have all the threads from back them. The archive backups crashed and we lost many good threads from years ago
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>>20554884
Neat, didn't know that. Is the Jegan kit fun to build?
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>>20554054
He actually favored Bazookas quite a bit. After his 79SC was damaged he used a GM Command Space and wiped out a dolos.

http://www.zeonic-republic.net/?page_id=7260
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>>20553834
>>20553914
FYI, here's a handy thread Mark put together for production runs of a number of different mobile suits
https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?t=11881
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>>20554996
The newly designed machine is the GMIII Nouvel, which is separate entirely due to being a new machine unlike the normal GMIII
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>>20554884
Except they're not. The GM II, Gundam Mk-II and the Nemo contributed to the GM III. The GM III was developed into the Jeddah, which goes on to become the Jegan (Type A).
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>>20555017
Hence personal archive you halfwit.
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>>20554996
Even the information in the picture from >>20554884 contradicts this as it calls the GMIII an upgrade of the GMII
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>>20554884
Your image literally says it's from the GM lineage, is based on a combination of previous technology and has the GM III equally credited, you schizo asshat.
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>>20555379
Yep Nouvel are the built from scratch types, they have a slightly better reactor than the GM IIIs retrofitted from GM IIs which is to be expected.

Honestly, the GM III is a great design, it allows them to take the outdated GM IIs and retrofit them to a GM III. Considering how cheap the stock GMs are there's no reason not to upgrade them, which is why I've always found the GM IIs in Unicorn to pointless.
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>>20555401
I'm not expert on moon runes but the image very clearly shows the Jegan was developed from more than just the Jeddah.

The Jeddah was also developed from more than just the GM III, it specifically calls out the Gundam MK II in its development.
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>>20555469
Hold my beer, bitch.
Plus, re-read my fucking post.
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>>20555455
>which is why I've always found the GM IIs in Unicorn to pointless.
Those are likely rookie training units, or even academy units for people who have just been recruited and never been behind in a cockpit before; never meant to be upgraded or even used in live combat ever
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>>20555686

Then the background lore would say so.

The ones in UC are suped up versions compared to their Zeta counterparts.
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>>20553714
>Jegan, being an Anaheim product, is directly derived from the Nemo.
of course it's worth mentioning that the Nemo is pretty much just a GM II with a new exterior and some minor improvements, created so AEUG backers have plausible deniability regarding where AEUG is getting their MS's(even the name Nemo leans into this since Nemo can be translated from Latin as "No One" or "Nobody")
>>
>>20555686
They're ostensibly just backwater base defense filler MS that's role is to scare off cave dwellers with busted Zakus and Toyota Hiluxs with machineguns in the back, although allegedly they're actually kept shitty enough terrorists and remnant groups still try so they can politically justify their budget they use on Gundams and shit.

>>20555726
According to literally who
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>>20548674
>Franklin Biden
>Biden

Robinette is a man’s name and I am a man!
>>
>>20555184
I'm honestly surprised Jung doesn't have his own spinoff manga like Ridden and Matsunaga given he's such a popular Feddie pilot with such a high kill count
>>
>>20555529
>>20555401
Those DeAgostini books are NOT official and not produced by Sunrise/Bandai, unlike the model kit manuals.

INCORRECT:
>GM III > Jeddah > Jegan
GM III couldn't derive from the Nemo in any way, since the former was still an EF development and the latter was made for the AEUG back when it was still an insurgent force.

CORRECT:
>GM III + Nemo + Jeddah > Jegan
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>>20556372
Sounds about right, the nemo definitely was used as reference for the jegan and I feel the MK2 was as well
>>
Does the story ever get as good as the first season? I thought it was fantastic but the second arc was kinda shit (granted it was clearly only the beggining of a longer arc so it couldn't be as satisfying as the first season but it still had lots of dumb stuff and shody character writing like Claudia magically being alive and brainwashed by a fucking cult)
So i'm not sure if i should bother with the rest of the manga.
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>>20553699
It's obvious what Ohtagaki is trying to do here: it's an excuse as why blasting Anaheim's headquarters would be "a bad thing" and, at the same time, give Io a personal stake to oppose Darryl and the monks' plan.

From a storytelling point of view, it's not bad (I have my qualms with Io as a character and feel he should've been killed ages ago, but Ohtagaki wants to do his dumb "twin protagonist" thing to the end, so there's that). My problem it that it's too late in the story to be introducing such an element, especially considering that the latest chapters have been a whole bunch of dicking around. You had the crashing colonies thing, Io's debut in the Perfect Zeong and blasting the cultist chick, the cripple guy escorting some refugees with a fucking Zanny. The story feels like it's in a holding pattern until the Final Confrontation between Io and Darryl, with filler between specific story points.
>>
>>20556372
Oh god get the fuck off it you ass bandit. Learn to read the credits of those book. Sunrise and Bandai are part of their production. Just because it goes against YOUR incorrect statement doesn't make them wrong. The Jeddah doesn't exist in an "animated continuity" so that's why it's grayed out in the chart. As such the other suits still attributed to the creation of the fucking Jegan.

The GMIII has long been derived from the Nemo like that since the old Entertainment Bible and Zeta book days. It's nothing new.

>>20555843
Except they aren't. Unicorn data books specifically say that a bulk of the suits in use are customized and souped up. They even explain the design variation from Zeta
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>>20555791
genuinely the most retarded post in this thread
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>>20555529
Congrats you found an infographic. Did you ever stop to consider that infographics are meant for ease of presentation instead of showing crisscrossing lines for lineage?

Jeddah came from the GM III and MK II
Jegan came from the GM III, MK II and Nemo
I don't know why this upsets you so much
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>>20556630
Learn to read the Japanese descriptions you halfwit
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>>20548584
So he's UC Kira Yamato?
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>>20553673
>Then Feds grabbed Civilians as human shields and hostages.
>Only started happening in revisionist manga in the mid 2000s
This. Unicorn basically ruined the UC by turning it into obligatory Zeon fanwank. It was THE hot topic UC work at the time (and in fact was the FIRST canon work once again set in the UC since the 08th MS Team in the 90s) and every other UC work after it had to suddenly pander to it to leech off of its popularity, meaning they had to also pander to Fukui's Zeon fanwanking as well to justify Unicorn's "Zeon was right all along as per the UC Charter!" plot.
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>>20556721
Actually, correction. Both MS Igloo and MS Igloo 2 were also made before Unicorn.
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>>20556721
You are aware that Sunrise, not Fukui, mandated the charter thing along with a host of other "issues" that people have against Fukui.
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>>20556447
I asked according to who not according to you

Obviously they're fucking customized because they have all the other leftover OYW era crap nobody cares about to equip them with, if they're claiming upgrades the only thing that makes sense is that they're talking about Unicorn's shit redesigns that try to make the GM II and GM III legs the same but with extra crap attached for the latter (except they fucked up and the knees don't match up) Which might be justifiable by saying that new lower body design is a part change up that's compatible with both models so they just got it by default.
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>>20550912
Bask just doing Bask things
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>>20551867
ZEON might have produced 4000 Zaku II but that is the entire production run until the end of the War

Zeon never fielded that many MS at once. Also remember that a big chunk of the Zeon military was destroyed at the start of the war during the initial attacks on the Sides, Operation British and the Battle of Loum.

it is stated in a lot of sources that the majority of the initial MS pilots died at the Battle of Loum and a lot of new pilots got to invade the earth and fight the rest of the war
>>
I haven't read Thunderbolt in a while

Is Bianca still alive?
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>>20556798
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>>20556778
>it is stated in a lot of sources that the majority of the initial MS pilots died at the Battle of Loum
Source? Because every source I'm aware of pretty much says Loum was a one sided curbstomp with the federation navy being almost wiped out then and there while Zeon only took light losses.
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>>20556818
the Federation and Zeon used nukes during the Battle of Loum and destroyed all colonies but Texas colony

i am going to have to look at the sources but i am sure 100 percent
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>>20556824
IIRC the only references to nukes used in Loum is by nuclear warhead equipped zakus, per EB39. The only time the federation is mentioned to use nukes anywhere is at Operation British to try and stop the colony.
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>>20556778
There is no reason why 4000 units cant be deployed at once. These 100ish or less deployments make little sense in the grand scheme of things anyways byoi can't tell me a baoa qu and Solomon were fought with only a couple hundred suits. That's utter bullshit
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>>20556850
Zeon could not deploy 4000 zaku 2 at once because that number is total production. Zaku 2 was produced just before the OYW started so that means most of the 4000 got made during the war

also, the 4000 number does not take into account MS lost to accidents or even combat during the conflict.
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>>20556928
The majority of MS at Solomon and A Baoa Qu are Rick Doms not Zaku IIs you no anime tardo
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>>20556928
Trying to rationalize production numbers is idiotic anyways. They serve no purpose for arguments.

Let's not forget we have something like 100+ Gundams across all the Gundam manga and whatnot
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>>20556930

>>20556940
>They serve no purpose for arguments
Sure they do. It proves the zeon underdog narrative never held any water, even in the 80s and 90s, and that information is recompiled into newer publications, so it's strange that new media is increasingly about zeon tearing through hordes of feddies when it should be the opposite. Zeon was far from actually reaching the point of exhaustion. Even in the show itself Kycilia says Zeon still has forces at Granada and Side 3 when she plans her escape from ABQ.
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>>20556984
Keep in mind, half of the federation side got wiped out, and they lost their supreme commander/admiral, and they still won ABQ.
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>>20550847
this is what i wanted out of something like Advance of Zeta.
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>>20555403
You don't have all of the threads.

Explain how you saved them, or you are full of nonsense.
>>
>>20556984
Your picture is incorrect. Too many errors. For example there many more Musai in the Zeon Space Navy than only 30 and ABQ. It's also missing the Zanzibars and a few other units
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>>20556984
...that pic is after the solar ray hit the fed fleet. Everything should be double for Feds
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>>20556984
What Gundam always gets wrong is that they always fail to remember that a Baou Que isn't just a rock. It's a military fortress. It's designed to withstand invasion and is covered with turrets, weapons, artillery, hardened bunkers, and weapon emplacements.

It's basically the space version of Jaburo. Where Jaburo was covered with missiles, rocket launchers, turrets, etc. Even if Zeon has much less numbers, It's rather silly to think the Federation could have taken the asteroid fortress with so few ships.
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>>20557031
Gundam doesn't get that wrong. They literally animated it to show turrets, weapons, artillery, hardened bunkers, and weapon emplacements. Nowhere in the MSG dialogue did they ever state how big the Fed and Zeon forces were.

It's the fucking fan retards who made these copy-and-paste MS paint pictures like >>20556984 which offer no real evidence or source or any kind of fucking explanation. It could have come from a long obsolete databook or a made-up fantasy for all we know.
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>>20556984
You are aware that there are instances where the Zeon could do that. Gatos narrative of him earning his nickname is one such example.

>>20557007
Go fuck yourself. I can give you a screenshot and that still won't satisfy your whiny ass.
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>>20557047
Databooks do have numbers but they serve no purpose as they shifted over the years.
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>>20557050
That's why I said "long obsolete databook". The best databooks are the ones that are made by the studio staff and are essentially compilations of what the staff thought of as reasonable explanations for their view of the show's events and tech, but even that can shift over time. The worse ones are those that make up impressive figures without understanding their meaning or implications, like the idiotic ones that had horsepower figures for MS reactor power or measured the top speed of space-going machines in mach units. Databooks are nice when they make sense, but let's not kid ourselves, they're meant to make money.
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>>20557049
>Go fuck yourself. I can give you a screenshot and that still won't satisfy your whiny ass.

So we finally get to the truth. You don't have "every single /m/ thread since 2008".

I asked what archival program you used, and now you are tweaking out because you have no idea what to say. So you are trying to deflect.

Either provide evidence or information, or stop wasting everyone's time. Just leave this post alone and don't reply. That's the only thing you can do to preserve what small dignity you have left.
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>>20557057
The same staff made those figures that you're contesting btw so it's a moot point. It's all pointless in the end anyways.
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>>20557063
It was my own script creation. But again, would you like a screenshot of the folder or a random old thread? It won't serve any purpose because even when faced with proof you won't be satisfied.
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>>20557082
>It won't serve any purpose because even when faced with proof you won't be satisfied.
All I'm seeing are cheap words and not a shred of proof. Pay up or hush up. Not buying your attempts at deflection.
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>>20557015
No it's not. The ship count is based on EB39's report of the forces present at ABQ. Why are you just making random shit up?
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>>20557050
Databooks and "official" sources are pretty much consistent on the relative sizes of the federation and zeon, the federation was outmatched in MS. There's an entire discussion above about how there are only 330 GM types known to be manufactured according to Bandai's MG GM manuals, compared to 4000 known Zaku types, also from the MG Zaku II manuals. Those are relatively recent official sources. The old databooks are arguably even a little more fair in numbers. By Bandai's numbers the federation would have to have been ripping and tearing through Zeon to win the war. Even more so when certain sources, like Bandai B-Club booklets, say that around half of all GMs survived the war.
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>>20557049
>You are aware that there are instances where the Zeon could do that. Gatos narrative of him earning his nickname is one such example.
>Gato
The OG Zeon wank character
https://youtu.be/7S1IP2znLw4?t=690
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>>20557049
>Still no proof. More barking

It's amazing how youve made 5 posts in a row saying the same thing.... without posting any proof.

Still waiting.
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>>20557359
How about you use your head and stop relying on a grainy jpeg with no source, an unknown author, and with absolutely wrong numbers. Probably made over a decade ago too.

I spent 5 seconds looking at that picture, and could immediately tell it was wrong. 4 Gwazines total? REALLY?

How about you actually WATCH the Battle of ABQ again. The anime shows us almost 10 different Gwazines at ABQ. Hell, we SEE five to six Gwazines in a wide angle shot.

Your whole picture is wrong. And if the source is EB31, then it's wrong too.
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Does anyone else think it makes no sense for Zeon to lose the battle of A Baou Que? Even if Giren got killed it still makes no sense for Zeon to fall apart like that. They had more numbers than the Federation. Zeon being disorganized after Giren dying still wouldn't be enough to account for the difference in strength.

Also how can Admiral Delaz just "order" his fleet to leave. Admiral or not, who would follow that command? Many Zeon are fanatics. They wouldn't just abandon their post or leave their brothers behind. If Dozle order such a retreat, then I'm surprised he wasn't relieved of command or even shot by his command staff for being a coward.
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>>20557545
Simple, the federation was made of sterner stuff. Zeon fell to pieces just like their leadership. I think Stardust flipped the image by introducing a relatively large fleet of Zeon remnants as fanatic loyalists who wouldn't go down no matter what, meanwhile in Z and ZZ Axis was only able to fight because they were untouched by the war and the federation was in shambles after the Titans scandal. Even then there's infighting because they're not loyal to the original cause and routinely backstab each other. Principality remnants even defect from Side 3 with Schzrum Dias in ZZ and they got shot in the back by Neo Zeon so they don't have to share credit for the fight against the Argama. Not to mention the entire civil war.
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>>20557411
Reminder Gato is alive.
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>>20557545
The federation had the white devil Mobile Suit Gundam and ace newtype Amuro Ray, how could they lose?
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>>20557722
Amuro didn't win the war by himself and the Gundam was two steps away from the scrapyard
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>>20553675
>Twitter
>Homosexual degenerate who takes truvada to keep his bugchasing.

When will deacon die off to Gay-related immune deficiency?
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>>20558030
yeah I forgot that Deacon is a faggot
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>>20556401

> It's obvious what Ohtagaki is trying to do here: it's an excuse as why blasting Anaheim's headquarters would be "a bad thing"

It is a bad thing, not a "bad thing". All it'll ultimately achieve is killing a fuckload of low level workers just trying to make a livin' while the people in charge, the ones holding the money and making the actual decisions they disagree with will leave before the laser is fired and just set up a new shop and continue doing exactly what they were doing with little to no actual consequence. It's a completely stupid plan that ultimately serves no purpose beyond slaughter, and frankly, the fact that it's being set up as a thing at all is kind of annoying given that even in Thunderbolt the Principality are the ones that designed and manufactured the majority of their mobile suits and were the ones actually responsible for the death of billions.

Compared to them, AE's crimes are fucking tiny. I'm not even sure they've done much double dealing as of yet in Thunderbolt, since both Zeon and the South Seas Alliance manufacture most of their own stuff, from what I gather.

>>20556729

Stardust also precedes it by a decade, and spent most of it's runtime fellating Zeon. Not to mention that the point of view characters in Unicorn refuted Zeon characters and called them out on things like the colony drop several times even in only a handful of characters and every sympathetic character in the story ends up being against the Sleeves. AND that the box never actually validated the Principality (or any flavor of Zeon), since it gave rights to Newtypes specifically while the Principality (and most of it's successors) was only concerned with the independence of Side 3 specifically and Spacenoids in general. Not Newtypes.
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>>20556818

The anon you quoted only noted Loum as one battle in a series, but also including the initial attack on the Sides and Operation British. Loum was mostly one sided in a lot of sources, but Operation British is noted in several data books as having cost the Principality much of it's pilots and hardware. Which is why Revil was able to give a speech only a few weeks into the war about how "Zeon is exhausted too", as a way to rally the flagging Federation into continuing the fight. It's also why Zeon had to invade Earth rather than just taking out the final couple of Federation holdouts in space (Luna II and Side 7), why a lot of the Earth based units used Gaws, Dopps, Magellas etc. and why the Federation could hold Zeon to a stalemate for several months despite Zeon flaying them in the first few weeks. Cause they were exhausted too, having lost a lot of pilots and hardware.

If you want a source then you get things like Gundam Century (http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamcentury.html):

> The colony drop had already consumed many veteran pilots who had experienced real combat, and the Battle of Loum proved to be a bitter victory for Zeon, which was short of human resources. This information was widely disseminated in the speech "No Soldiers in Zeon" given by the Federation Forces' General Revil, who had been taken prisoner in the Battle of Loum. Along with the failure to destroy the Jaburo base, this speech played a major role in prolonging the war.

Or Entertainment Bible 39 (http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/entertainmentbible39.html):

> Thus this operation, which had left both sides with heavy losses, ended in a very different way than the Zeon forces had anticipated. In particular, the Zeon forces had lost much of their escort fleet.
>>
Revil's speech in the novelization directly notes that the Zeon lost a lot of their fighting strength at Loum too. It's history is a little different, but the central point, that Zeon is supposed to be low on resources too, is the same.

>>20556984

All Kycilia says is that they have fighting strength left; not that they're particularly strong. The Federation have fighting strength left at Solomon and Luna II as well. Zeon wasn't exhausted, but they were certainly well on the way to being so again. Both sides were, that was the entire point of why the remaining Zeon leaders gave up at A Baoa Qu and the Federation accepted it; because both sides were just fucking tired and had no desire left to fight.

>>20557014
>>20557015

That particular picture is not from any data book to my knowledge, and is only a summation of the units present on a huge diorama that was installed at the Gundam Base in Tokyo for several years. It has no RB-79 Balls in the picture for one thing, which we know were used at A Baoa Qu; so it's definitely not actually reflecting the real total units, and so far as I know, was never meant to do so.
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>>20558057

Of course, I then forget an image of the diorama in question.
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>>20557545
Even in a defensive siege scenario, A Baoa Qu clearly didn't fight to the last man and Axis was known to have a sizable fighting force after the OYW, so it really seems that when command was lost, a bunch of fleets just struck out and left on their own to try to get out while they thought they still could. Simply having more numbers doesn't mean winning, and losing battlefield command and control can paralyze Zeon's ability to coordinate defenses and give orders to troops to counterattack. If your squad can't talk to HQ to figure out what it should be doing or where it should be going, then morale-wise your troops are gonna lose hope because even if all of A Baoa Qu's defenders still outnumber the attacking Feds, it's not gonna feel that way if your group has to defend an area by itself with little hope for reinforcements or resupply.

Delaz's fleet leaving while somewhat intact is one example, same goes for all the survivors that fled to Axis which was actually a large force. We're not told how many left at A Baoa Qu, but we more or less know how large some other groups are:

>Delaz fleet
15 warships, 80+ MS

>Cima fleet
8 warships, 30 MS

>Axis fleet in 0083
1 Gwanban, 10 Musai, 10 supply ships

This isn't a complete total, but at least 33 warships and over 100 MS left ABQ partway through the battle.
>>
another thing that you retards fail to realize during the Battle of A Baoa Qu

The Federation had GMs equipped with beam weapons. The Zeon only had a handful of Gelgoogs and it is stated in the sources that a lot of MS pilots from Zeon had been shit recruits because by that point so many Zeon MS had been destroyed.

Also, almost the entire Zeon fleet at Solomon was annihilated with the solar ray
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>>20558151
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>>20558154
was there a reason why the ship was "upside down"
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>>20558030
Y'all just love fabricating more shit about him. Way too obsessed with the guy as usual.
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>>20553706
That's not what the text says.
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>>20558055
>the Zeon forces had lost much of their escort fleet
Reading the actual article

>Thus this operation, which had left both sides with heavy losses, ended in a very different way than the Zeon forces had anticipated. In particular, the Zeon forces had lost much of their escort fleet. Two Chivvay-class heavy cruisers were sunk, and three were moderately damaged. Four Musai-class cruisers were sunk, five heavily damaged, and six moderately damaged. They had also lost roughly 140 mobile suits.
>140 mobile suits
Sounds like the damage was mostly to their ships.

Also I didn't realize it was 3200 Zaku IIs DEPLOYED.
> the outbreak of the war, the number of mobile suits deployed had reached 820 units of the MS-05 early production type, and 3200 units of the new MS-06 (including all types).
That paints a very different picture from the previous discussions about manufactured MS.

I'm not sure what gundam century says about numbers but EB seems to suggest the MS losses were fairly minimal
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>>20558054
>and just set up a new shop and continue doing exactly what they were doing with little to no actual consequence
I don't think it's as easy as you think. Von Braun is AE's base of operations. Setting up shop anywhere else would take years.

With the benefit of hindsight, we could say that, were the monks to destroy Von Braun, Operation Stardust, the rise of the Titans and the Gryps conflict wouldn't happen.
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>>20558222
Okay, so what does the text say, then?
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>>20558161
Idk if ones stated. But in a space ship tactics perspective, you wouldn't want ships like the Musais all oriented the same way. You'd want at least a couple "pointing down" to watch your belly. Ideally you'd want ships oriented in a cylindrical formation so that every approach angle is covered by your guns.
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>>20558362
I'm just retarded. Thats one of the Papua-Class transports. They're usually depicted in that orientation.
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>>20558362
Clearly what the summary thread on twitter says. Not that other shit
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>>20558357
The Hi-Zack was originally a feddie/titan MS. it was retconned into a AE design later on IIRC in the gunpla manuals. Idk why but it seemed like the feddies/titans were perfectly capable of making MP MS
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>>20557359
>No it's not. The ship count is based on EB39's report of the forces present at ABQ. Why are you just making random shit up?
Do you know how crazy you sound? You are telling me this chart is before the Solar Ray hir the Federation? So I have to divide those Federation numbers in half. And then accept the Federation won with such a woefully small force? That's even more absurd than saying that chart is pre-solar ray.

Not to mention the ship and suit numbers are wrong. There are no Federation balls on that chart. There are no Zaku I's either. There are no Zanzibars ships. There were much more Musai and Gwazines too. Even MS Igloo showed us there were a lot more Musai and Gwazine than whatever that picture says. I'm pretty the original animation had more Zeon ships too.
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>>20558419
And that's relevant how, exactly? My point is that it was Stardust (and Anaheim's direct involvement in the affair) what was responsible for the appearance of the Titans and, thus, the Gryps conflict.

The hypothetical loss of Von Braun would cripple Anaheim's production lines and the Federation's tech development. Thus, Stardust doesn't happen.
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>>20558357
Destroying Von Braun doesn't erase Jamitov's existence, he'd just find another scheme to justify the creation of the Titans. Plenty of scheming and bullshit going on in Thunderbolt to work with.

>>20558236
>Also I didn't realize it was 3200 Zaku IIs DEPLOYED.
These numbers seem excessively high. Like, they're agreeable numbers for "Zeon at the peak of its Earth invasion" where they've secured production facilities on Earth and are trying to cover as much land as possible, but 4000 total Zakus at the onset of the war is silly, they can't even carry that many with their warships. According to that same article, Zeon's space fleet was counted as being:

battleship x 8, heavy cruiser x 42, light cruiser x 108

Presumably these refer to the Gwazine, Chibe, and Musai classes, in that order. Gwazines hold 20 MS, Chibes carry 8 MS, and Musais handle 3 MS at standard. Collectively, the entire space fleet as specified can carry 820 MS comfortably. That leaves ~3200 MS to man the defensive complements at their asteroid bases, be used for training, and sit in hangars collecting dust in reserve.
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>>20558495
>Destroying Von Braun doesn't erase Jamitov's existence, he'd just find another scheme to justify the creation of the Titans.
First of all, the Titans as an organization are larger than the ambition of a single man, whether it's Jamitov, Bask Om, or Scirocco. Second, they would have to find a scheme as large as a successful colony drop for the Earth Federation to justify their creation.

By the way, that whole discussion about fleet numbers and whatnot with that other anon is utterly pointless. There's no such thing as consistent numbers or dates anywhere
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>>20558493
>The hypothetical loss of Von Braun would cripple Anaheim's production lines and the Federation's tech development
The GM II, Quel, Hi-Zack, Asshimar, Mk-II (not in the TB universe I guess), Gaplant, Galbady Beta, and Byarlant were all natively developed Federation tech in Zeta. Assuming the rise of the Titans happens the same way it did in the main universe the federation should still have Luna II, Kilmanjaro, Augusta, Oakland and more. Not to mention Scirocco, who designed the Gabthley and Hambrabi for potential mass production.
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>>20558539
>Hi-Zack
Not the HiZack. Anaheim made it.

And in the Thunderbolt-verse, Anaheim made the Gundam and GM.
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>>20558539
The Quel and Galbaldy existed before Gryps war, do they also exist in Thunderbolt's world? I remember seeing Fedgoogs but don't recall a Galbaldy Alpha, so the Beta doesn't seem likely to exist.
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>>20558551
I don't know about the Quel but the Custom does show up and they get wrecked, which is bullshit
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>>20558456
>Do you know how crazy you sound? You are telling me this chart is before the Solar Ray hir the Federation?
It's consistent with EB1's statements. The federation won despite having the disadvantage after the solar ray wiped out Revil's fleet
>On December 31, the Federation fleet launched an attack on the space fortress A Baoa Qu, part of the Principality of Zeon's final defensive line. With the loss of the Revil fleet, their numerical inferiority was unavoidable, and they were barely able to get a small number of mobile suit corps inside the fortress.
http://ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/entertainmentbible01.html

EB is still pretty much the standard. Official banrise products used it as the basis for the fluff.

What Mark Simmons has to say about EB
>Though much of its content contradicts previous sources, the detailed descriptions in Entertainment Bible 39 have been hugely influential on later writers. Parts of its setting were later referenced in Gundam The Origin and the Gihren's Greed strategy game series as well, and together with Gundam Century and the Mobile Suit Variation books, we could consider this part of the unofficial gospel of Gundam backstory. I'm in the process of translating its contents, and will update the sections below as I continue.
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>>20558456
EB39's fleet counts for ABQ
>https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?p=262156#p262156
Then the Battle of A Baoa Qu. EB 39 claims that the Federation side consists of the 2nd, 3rd, 5th, and 6th Fleets.

FEDERATION FORCES
Battleships: Magellan etc x 18 (14 destroyed or disabled)
Cruisers: Salamis etc x 98 (60 destroyed or disabled)
Mobile suits: GM etc x 4,800 (4,000+ lost)
Fighters: Core Booster etc x 900
Assault boats: Public etc x 110 (almost all destroyed)
Other: Columbus x 84, missile destroyers, beam gunships

PRINCIPALITY OF ZEON
Battleships: Gwazine x 3, Dolos x 2 (number destroyed unknown)
Cruisers: Musai, Chivvay etc x 41 (30+ destroyed or disabled)
Mobile suits: Rick Dom etc x 3,600 (3,000+ lost)
Fighters: Gattle etc x 830 (120+ lost)
Assault boats: Jicco etc x 46 (almost all destroyed)
Other: Small number of mobile armors

There's actually a separate count for Zeon's MS, one of many inconsistencies in EB39, which is probably what the chart used for the Zakus and Gelgoogs. The chart also corrected for Kycilia's Gwazine which was hanging out in ABQ rather than on the front lines.
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>>20558551
There's designs for Galbaldys that haven't been used so far.
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>>20558551
>do they also exist in Thunderbolt's world
Not yet but we've seen some of the Stardust suits show up.

>>20558544
>Not the HiZack. Anaheim made it.
>Whether or not Anaheim developed the Hizack - which was always a reasonable theory, but one that's only recently been confirmed via the Advance of Zeta background materials - the Zeonic connection doesn't explain why they used the Zaku as a base rather than, say, the Gelgoog. Zeonic created both the Zaku and the Gelgoog.
Mark Simmons

>Anaheim made the Gundam and GM
Weren't they only co-designed by Anaheim?
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>>20558623
>Weren't they only co-designed by Anaheim?
In Thunderbolt and The Origin, not the original plot.
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>>20558623
What are you even talking about? The HiZack only looks like a Zaku comestically. It doesn't mean it's literally a Zaku underneath.

AE bought Zeonic so a bunch of former MS Zeon Engineers were part of their staff. So those same staff members probably wanted the HiZack suit to comestically resemble the old Zaku.

It makes total sense since too because the Zaku was more iconic and a symbol for when Zeon was winning the war. Every Zeon soldier knows the Zaku.

Rather than the Gelgoog which was barely available during the war. And didn't really do anything of note except participate during the final battle. But got destroyed badly because only academy students used it.

The simple truth was that Gelgoog was not iconic.
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>>20558579
>It's consistent with EB1's statements.
It doesn't pass the common sense test. If that picture represents EB, then it's way off realistically. The Federation can't win if that fleet is cut in half.
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>>20558654
>Rather than the Gelgoog which was barely available during the war. And didn't really do anything of note except participate during the final battle. But got destroyed badly because only academy students used it.
>The simple truth was that Gelgoog was not iconic.
And despite that, the Gelgoog is still operated years after the One Year War through upgrades like the ReGelg.
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>>20558658
You are conflating popularity with usefulness. And missing the point

Old Style Battleships with huge guns aren't used anymore in the Navy. But they are still far more iconic than the modern day Destroyers that replaced them. It doesn't matter than the current Destroyers are more advanced.

Gelgoogs were barely available during the OYW. And only a relatively small amount were made. Of course the designers would pick the more iconic looking Zaku.
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>>20558654
>What are you even talking about?
Are you illiterate? I'm saying the Hizack being made by Anaheim was a retcon by AoZ and its supporting material. Mark Simmons, one of the original Gundam localizers for the west who worked for Sunrise, outright says that AoZ was the first time Anaheim's role in its development was established.

You can look at the archived Gundamofficial site where it's described as a federation produced machine because AoZ wasn't published at the time the site was written.
>The Hizack is the first new model of mobile suit produced by the Earth Federation Forces after the One Year War. Based on Zeon's versatile MS-06 Zaku II, the Hizack incorporates a mixture of Zeon and Federation technologies, but it's essentially an improved Zaku rather than a genuinely new machine. New armor materials and a lightweight power generator make the Hizack lighter and more agile than its ancestor, and thanks to its ease of operation and maintenance it's become the standard mobile suit of the regular Federation Forces and Titans alike. However, its inability to drive more than one type of beam weapon at a time means that the Hizack is often equipped with an obsolete machine gun rather than a beam rifle.
https://web.archive.org/web/20040409031720/http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc/zeta/mechanics/ms_hizack.html
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>>20558658
The Regelgoog is more of a "huge Refit" than a simple upgrade. They probably had to strip it down to the bare frame, pull out old systems, install a whole new cockpit, new avionics, software, etc. That's A LOT of work that goes beyond a simple upgrade.

Look at the amount of metal used especially in the shoulders. That's a lot of material used to keep the suit in service.
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>>20558670
And this was apparently enough to make it on par with suits such as the gallus J which was already a machine that out performed any of the mass production units deployed by the AEUG and titans(example: nemo and barzam)
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>>20558656
>It doesn't pass the common sense test
No one cares. Who do you think established the 1000~kW power standard? Or the weight and thrust-mass ratio? Specs that are published on official materials, merchandise, perpetuated into new shows? Do you think it makes sense for the Gundam to run on the power output of a WW2 fighter engine? Entertainment Bible did, and now Banrise and gundam fans do too. Even new stuff follows the same trend. The Unicorn Gundam runs on the equivalent of 3 P-51 Mustang engines thanks to Entertainment Bible's specs.
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>>20558658
The fuck does whether it was iconic or not have to do with Zeonic remnants keeping it for themselves? Remnants usually find it difficult to replace their MS because of a complete lack of facilities, they're on their own. You really think a bunch of stranded war vets are getting to choose which MS they want to use based on aesthetics instead of, I dunno, being stuck with what they were given?
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>>20558666
>Are you illiterate? I'm saying the Hizack being made by Anaheim was a retcon by AoZ

The HiZack being manufactured directly by the Federation never made sense to begin with. The only facilities the Federation has are old GM factories. They are Completely incompatible with the HiZack.

If you watch 0083 (which came out in the early 1990s), it's stated the former Zeon MS Engineers went to work for Anaheim Electronics. Not the Federation.

At best, the Federation approved and supervised the design. But Anaheim Electronics were always the direct manufacturers.
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>>20558689
>The only facilities the Federation has are old GM factories. They are Completely incompatible with the HiZack.
This isn't a game where a faction is stuck with their own tech tree. The Feds can choose to build new manufacturing lines or research enemy tech if they want.

>If you watch 0083 (which came out in the early 1990s), it's stated the former Zeon MS Engineers went to work for Anaheim Electronics. Not the Federation.
And if you watched Zeta which came out in the mid 80s, it's shown that the Federation produced more than just the Hizack. It's even canon that they captured Zeon facilities like Solomon, A Baoa Qu, and Pezun that had production lines, fabrication workshops, and shitton of spare Zaku parts. This is why they have the Galbaldy Beta, Act Zaku, Zaku Mariner, etc in service for themselves.
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>>20558685
I never agreed with those numbers either. Not sure why you would think otherwise.

The *only* thing those stats are good for is determinimg which suit is better than another in a "general sense" .

For example:
Does Gundam have more (boost numbers) than Zaku? Okay Gundam is better.

Does Gundam have bigger (generator numbers) than Zaku?
Okay Gundam is better.

Does Gundam have stronger armor than Zaku?
Okay Gundam is better.

That's about all the tech books are good for. Just big "generalities". Not any specifics.
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>>20550206
i maintain that "canon" is bullshit and that all UC stories are just telling the same story of the OYW onwards from different perspectives and with varying accuracy or focuses.
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>>20558701
>This isn't a game where a faction is stuck with their own tech tree. The Feds can choose to build new manufacturing lines or research enemy tech if they want.

Because the Federation captured former Zeon factories on Earth such as California base. These places were already pre-configured and pre-tooled to work with Zeon technology.

The Federation can just use those facotories to mess around with OYW-era designs without needing to invest any resources in rebuilding factories or new production machines.

The Feds also captured pre-built Zeon suits. Ones that were abandoned or never used when Zeon had to retreat. Then shipped these suits to Jaburo or other places for testing purposes.

On a large scale they never built new factories on Earth for the HiZack. Especially not at Jaburo given how willing the Titans were willing to nuke it and didn't care about sacrificing Jaburo to kill the AEUG.

Anaheim Electronics was the only place that made sense. They were already established during Zeta as a mobile suit manufacturer, and had a huge monopoly on production. 0083 further reinforces that.
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>>20558689
>The only facilities the Federation has are old GM factories
The Federation captured Solomon, A Baoa Qu, and Pezun at a bare minimum. AE only got Granada's facilities but the federation also had a base there, so it may be actually shared. In other words, most of AE's facilities were probably their own, while the federation captured most of the Zeon manufacturing bases.

The Galbady Beta, which was produced around the same time as the Hizack, UC0084, was made by the federation too and I don't think AoZ tried to change that. The Beta was modified from the Galbady Alpha, a zeon design that was set up to be manufactured at the Pezun facilities. The Federation just took over and made some tweaks to produce them. Not to mention they also produced a number of other outright Zeon designs like the Act Zaku, which has a shaky history of whether it was actually made during the OYW or made by the federation some time after the OYW.

Also. Augusta, Oakland, Kilmanjaro, etc. were researching new tech. It's canon to the show that the Gaplant and Asshimer were fully transformable suits ("mobile armors") that were independently developed by the Federation before AE even made the Zeta after being schooled by Kamille of all people.

>never made sense to begin with
It makes more sense, honestly, for the federation to have made the Hizack because it's supposed to be and continues to be a hybrid monstrosity that's barely better than OYW suits despite having modern technology. Why would Zeonic's expert engineers design a mutant GM-Zaku when they already designed superior MS? It makes the most sense for the Federation to make that while trying to reverse engineer Zeon's manufacturing facilities. Plus it was rolled out around the same time as the Galbady Beta, so it makes sense for them to be twins of a sort.
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>>20558719
>Why would Zeonic's expert engineers design a mutant GM-Zaku when they already designed superior MS?

1. The HiZack was better than anything between 0079 to 0085-ish. It was a good stopggap suit designed to stomp anything old Zeon remnants had available. And to police the old Zeon colonies should they get uppity again. That's FIVE years of absolute MS dominance. No other suit can claim such a long period of time. Nothing could challenge the HiZack in the post-war years.

It only began showing its age dated when the AEUG started using even newer designs such as the Rick Dias and Nemo. But by that point the HiZacks were getting phased out anyway by the Marasai and Barzams. It's just that the Titans were much slower to upgrade their fleet than the AEUG.

2. To keep costs low. The HiZack was made in huge numbers and had to patrol the entire Earthsphere.
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>>20558623
>>Anaheim made the Gundam and GM
>Weren't they only co-designed by Anaheim?

no in the original mobile suit gundam anaheim is never mentioned or even existed in the script

the Gundam, guncannon, guntank and GM are all created by the Federations own MS factory and design team

it was in Zeta when Anaheim came in and was the merchant of death giving weapons to all sides
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>>20558739
>The HiZack was better than anything between 0079 to 0085-ish.
Its gundamofficial profile literally says the power system is so bad it can't use more than one beam weapon at a time, meaning most hizacks have to carry a machine gun when beams were a standard weapon. I don't see how that's better than anything when even OYW GMs could easily carry multiple beam weapons like the GM Sniper Custom, which could carry a beam saber, a back up spray gun, and a rifle. It only became the new standard because it was cheap and simple to maintain.

>The HiZack was made in huge numbers and had to patrol the entire Earthsphere.
If that were true the AEUG would have a ton of Hizacks. Instead they have only GM IIs. We see a few hizacks from the federation but otherwise it's mostly used by the Titans. And we know the AEUG is mostly feddie, so it's pretty clear the GM II was still the most common unit around 0086-0087
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>>20558719
Almost everything you quoted works on Zeon One Year War technology. Not newer post-war stuff.

All those places you mentioned were not fully dedicated factories either. They were space fortresses with *some* MS production capability inside. It's production capability pales in comparison to the massive facilities available on the moon.

Not to mention they were largely trashed, and destroyed due to the battles. They are completely unsuitable for mass producing HiZacks. They have to be rebuilt from scratch.

Solomon? Got hit by the Solar System laser and half melted.

A Boa Que? It's a burning hulk. The entire asteroid base exploded from the inside out during the final battle.

Pezun is tiny and is unsuitable for large scale production.

The moon has always been the one place that made sense for main HiZack production. The moon was left untouched by the war. It was massive. And Already had research and development facilities. Overall the moon Required the least investment of funds for further development of MS.

That's why the HiZack being made on the moon made the most sense.
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>>20558739
In case anyone wants to argue the AEUG being a feddie faction. This is from @SUNRISEINC7, an official sunrise twitter account
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>>20558763
>Its gundamofficial profile literally says the power system is so bad it can't use more than one beam weapon at a time, meaning most hizacks have to carry a machine gun when beams were a standard weapon.

1. Stop quoting a dead website. It's gone. It's been gone for over 12 years at this point. Live with it and move forward.

2. If you actually do any deeper research you would realize the the HiZack is perfectly capable of using beam weapons. The generator is fine. The problem is the specific beam rifle they made for the HiZack.

The problem is that the specific *new* beam rifle they designed for the HiZack was an energy pig and guzzled power. The HiZack beam rifle required 400% the amount of power compared to previous beam weapons used on the GM series. That is insane.

And the HiZack beam rifle required 70% MORE power compared the GP01 Gundam's beam rifle from 0083. Why? Who thought that was a good idea?

It makes no sense to make the HiZack beam rifle so powerful and energy demanding since the HiZack was designed to beat up old Zeon OYW units and be a police unit.

The HiZack itself and its generator are perfectly capable of using any previous beam weapon used by the Federation. And honestly the Federation should have retired the HiZack beam rifle. It was a huge mistake and a design flaw. Give the HiZack a Gundam Beam rifle instead.
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>>20558739
>>20558755
>>20558764
>>20558783
the GM from the OYW is better than the HiZack, it can use a beam rifle and use a beam saber plus it has two vulcans and a huge shield

the ONLY thing the HiZack has over the GM is a better cockpit monitor since the HiZack does not have a full panoramic cockpit
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>>20558811
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>>20558654
>>20558689
>>20558739
>>20558764
>>20558783
>HiZack
Stop this bullshit spelling. It's either "Hizack" or "Hi-Zack".
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>>20558811
>>20558812
this is the best GM model kit ever made
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>>20553675
why is his shirt off?
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>>20558816
Hi, Zach
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this was a great MS
Federation had great taste to use this instead of that gay Gelgoog
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>>20558783
>The problem is that the specific *new* beam rifle they designed for the HiZack was an energy pig and guzzled power.
Whoops, sorry but that fact is now obsolete. That particular beam rifle is now the Act Zaku's OYW beam rifle.

>The HiZack beam rifle required 400% the amount of power compared to previous beam weapons used on the GM series. That is insane.
No, it doesn't. The GM's beam spray gun is rated for 1.4 megawatts and the same beam rifle used by Hizack and Marasai is rated for 2.2 megawatts. It's about a 50% increase, not 400%.

>It makes no sense to make the HiZack beam rifle so powerful and energy demanding since the HiZack was designed to beat up old Zeon OYW units and be a police unit.
Hizack was adopted as a next generation grunt for the Titans, who were considered special forces. It was not meant to be a second-rate police unit, and don't forget, chasing down Zeek remnants is a janitorial job for the regular EFF forces, the Titans are above that and being anti-Zeon remnant was just a pretext for the organization's creation, they didn't take part in any mop-up operations as far as anyone knows.
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>>20558892
>The GM's beam spray gun is rated for 1.4 megawatts and the same beam rifle used by Hizack and Marasai is rated for 2.2 megawatts. It's about a 50% increase, not 400%.
Not that anon. The other anon has the wrong figures. However your math is also wrong. The increase is 65%.

The question then becomes why does the hizack need a beam rifle that is 65% more power demanding than previous models? That is a fair point and I agree.
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>>20558816
>Stop this bullshit spelling. It's either "Hizack" or "Hi-Zack". Get off my forum kid. You dont know shit about Gundam history. The adults are speaking now.
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>>20558934
Agreed. Unless the generator was scaled up to be 65% more output then it makes zero common sense to make a weapon be so much stronger. Of course it can't use a beam saber and beam rifle together. The beam rifle is sucking up all the juice from the generator.
>>
You people are getting way off topic by one anon. The point is that the Hizack was made by Anaheim Electronics. It was a decent suit for several years until the new suits came out in 0086.
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>>20558934
Your math is also wrong. 1.4 to 2.2 is a 57% increase.

>The question then becomes why does the hizack need a beam rifle that is 65% more power demanding than previous models? That is a fair point and I agree.
I take it as a sign of the times. Zeon MS used a lot of crap armor material like basic steel and some titanium, so lower end beam weapons do fine against that. With the Zeta era and beyond, there's new anti-beam coatings and a general improvement in performance and armor, a bigger and longer range beam consumes more power but even some general purpose MS become capable of beam sniping or barrages for anti-ship and general firepower against groups and formations. Compared to the OYW standard, 2.2 megawatts is high but is actually on the lower end for many Zeta era machines whose beam rifles end up going as high as the 5 megawatt range.
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>>20559025
I disagree. The Nemo uses the same beam rifle as the GM II, and that beam rifle works just fine in the Zeta era. I think your perception is biased because because the Zeta Gundam anime follows a hero ship loaded with special highend prototypes, and Gundams. They are the exception.
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>>20559052
I never said the OYW beam rifles stopped working effectively, but stronger beam weapons mean newer MS become more dangerous. There's no longer a specific need for dedicated sniper or anti-ship MS since regular MS become capable of that role. The Federation more or less standardizes on the good enough short beam rifles, but Zeon embraces higher output weaponry all around.
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>>20558934
The beam spray gun fucking blows man, don't even compare it to a beam rifle. The GM II/Nemo rifle is 1.9MW so only 15% difference and the descriptions of it are still about how much it sucks.

Comparing any stats outside of the same show is entirely hopeless.
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>>20558739
Hazels and GM Customs would smoke the Shit-Zack what the fuck are you talking about.yh3hn
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>>20558951
If you want to play the "old model kit art" game, be my guest.
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>>20556200
>his own spinoff manga like Ridden and Matsunaga
You are kind of right. But look how long it took for RIdden to get a full fledge manga instead of some small filler single chapter story from Gundam Ace
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>>20556393
>Does the story ever get as good as the first season?
Yes, if you actually read the manga instead, the story is great. Watching the 2nd "season" is pure trash compared to the manga
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>>20559400
The difference is that you are bothered by the alternative spelling.

I'm (and other anons) are not.
>>
I still don't understand how the Feds beat Zeon off of Earth. Zeon controlled 2/3rds of the Planet. And almost all major manufacturing centers.

The only places they didn't control were South America and some parts of Africa. They should have blockaded South America and shut the Feds down
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>>20559640
That's 2/3rds of the planet to spread thin all of Zeon's materiel and manpower, to keep in check a Federation that doesn't have the handicap of being the occupying force.
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>>20559640
Because the Fed's likely didn't put up a fight for most of their bases, they retreated and mostly focused on important locations or focused on guerilla activities.
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>>20559645
Yeah but it's not like Zeon's army was small. They sent 150 million Zeon soldiers down to Earth. That's like the population of the United States.

And that was after Earth got hit by a colony drop and lost half its population. And lots of Major coastal cities were destroyed or half destroyed.
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>>20559640
>>20559645
this and

The Earth was devastated after the colony drop. The colony broke up during re-entry and caused tons of damage across the entire earth. Supposedly most of the farmland was wiped out in the resulting destruction and climate change and some books claim the Earth had to import food from the remaining colonies to survive. I imagine the conditions were probably terrible for Zeon even if they held most of the land. Not to mention 08th depicts locals resisting Zeon through guerrilla tactics.

I'm sure it was bad for the federation too but they probably had stockpiles stashed away in Jaburo and other locations to survive.
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>>20559640
Zeon never at any point had the logistical capacity or manpower to genuinely outmuscle the Feds, which is why after Odessa they promptly fucked off back to space. They peaked with the blitz and faded when it was no longer viable.

>>20559687
He's not wrong. "150 million" sounds like a big number, but it's not exactly, say, 1.402 billion chinks for example. You can cut that number of chinks down to half if you want, but at the end of the day it's still bigger than a hundred and a half million by a long shot.
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>>20558054
Stardust's Zeon fanwank was only to 'explain' how and why the Titans were created prior to Zeta, while Unicorn's fanwank was to outright retcon the Federation into a fascist dictatorship and state that Zeon (both Daikun's ideology and the War of Independence) were in the right to oppose them all along. As for the UC Charter, there was a small article pertaining to Newtypes (and one trying to reference the fucking ELS of all things) but most of it was about Spacenoid independence and the roles they were supposed to be allowed to play in the Earth Sphere, and say the Federation was tyranically 'denying' Spacenoids their 'rightful' freedoms because of it.
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>>20556763
Is this Thunderbolt or something else?
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>>20558683
Yeah but the Gallus J has a shitty track record so it sounds like puffery that it was even good in the first place
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>>20559749
Honestly, 150 million feels like way too much. The show made it seem like Zeon's army was much smaller. Garma barely has any mobile suits and his troops feel very limited for a guy who was in-charge of the Earth invasion.
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>>20558719
>designs like the Act Zaku, which has a shaky history of whether it was actually made during the OYW or made by the federation some time after the OYW

That's an extremely outdated take. You can only claim the Act Zaku was never made in the OYW if you refuse to acknowledge Thoroughbred doesn't exist. It's also there in Origin continuity too.
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>>20558763
>If that were true the AEUG would have a ton of Hizacks.
Careful with that logic. The AEUG was formed in response to the brutality of the Titans. They would not use the MS the Titans are most famous for.

Additionally they have so many GM IIs since Blex got them as part an "accounting error" scheme to allow transfer of older EFSF to the AEUG by calling them either decomissioned or inventory errors
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>>20559807
And while this machine was made later, we don't see the AEUG using GM Quel's, despite that machine being mostly decommissioned by this point so obtaining it wouldn't have been so difficult. Meanwhile, the movies gave the AEUG the GM Custom and GM Cannon II, which the titans either barely used or never added to their forces.
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>>20559756
Except that the formation of the Titans as per 0083's explanation flies in the face of why they were actually formed in Tomino's Zeta novels.
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>>20558236

> Article says "Thus the operation [...] left both sides with heavy losses"
> Anon's interpretation: sounds like it just means minimal losses

A lot of the lore in Gundam Century has been rendered moot over the years, especially exact numbers, but it is where the seeds of a lot of ideas, like the exact details of the colony drop operation (which has no specifics beyond "it happened" in the animation itself), came from. The broader point though is that there is a basis for the idea Zeon were materially exhausted after the One Week Battle, and it's fairly consistent across the novels and databooks, as well as implied in the animation given what Zeon actually did for much of the background and what we actually see Zeon use in combat for much of the show.

>>20558357

It'd take years, but so what? The people in charge would still be (a) alive, (b) rich and (c) in charge. So it'd take another 5 years to set up a new factory. So what? They still wouldn't have suffered any real consequence, beyond at most a pause in their income. Not an actual loss to their personal wealth, just that it's not building anymore for a few years. Also, given just how different Thunderbolt is to UC there's no reason to suppose Operation Stardust or the Titans will happen regardless of the monk's actions. If anything, the monk's actions could be used as the basis for the rise of a group like the Titans now instead.

>>20558579

Why do you think the count is supposed to be an accurate reflection of the full battle when it doesn't have any Balls in it at all? It's just representing the diorama in >>20558065 so far as I know and the Ball was probably omitted for simple and practical reasons, since it'd be difficult to construct any given how small they'd be; even compared to mobile suits. The diorama wasn't made to be accurate as such, so the picture summing it up wouldn't either.
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>>20558755

It wasn't until Char's Counterattack that Anaheim were double dealing, though 0083 retconned them to be doing it earlier. AE (almost) exclusively deal with AEUG in Zeta and ZZ, while the Titans and Neo Zeon make all their own suits. The only time that AE deal with the Titans in Zeta is when the Titans essentially force them to hand over the Marasai by putting political pressure on them, while the only time Neo Zeon use AE suits is when defectors bring some along. Some fluff has retconned that, but the point is that AE were not depicted as being duplicitous in Zeta and ZZ themselves and that doesn't start till Char's Counterattack when they're more well established.

>>20559640

It's at least partially because Zeon didn't actually control 2/3rs of the planet. The Feds controlled South Ameria, most of Europe, parts of Africa, parts of Asia etc. Odessa was a battle between the two sides in Eastern Europe. Do you think the Federation just snuck a huge battle group behind enemy lines to attack those mines? Of course not, it was the Federation pushing their front line against Zeons. We also see the Federation controlling parts of Asia in 08th MS Team, even ignoring that much of Asia is outright stated as contested territory in the original show if I recall.

>>20559756

Gato doesn't need to succeed in pretty much everything to explain the Titans. The remnants of Zeon even appearing with a nuke stolen from the Federation would be enough to justify the Titans all on it's own, and even if you don't think it is, those remnants succeeding in detonating it and wiping out a fleet is. The colony drop isn't necessary at all; especially for them to actually succeed. Nor is Gato dying while sacrificing himself to save his allies as heroic music plays after the apparent protagonist has achieved fuck all on a personal or military level in the entire story, and lost at every turn.
>>
Also, the charter in no way justifies Zeon and the article about Newtypes, along with one about aliens were the only ones that hadn't been publicly known since UC0001. So none of the rest of the charter could be about Spacenoid rights, even ignoring that the entire text of it is available in English and none of it says anything about Spacenoid independence.
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>>20560158
Pfft. Zeon controls what matters. Russia is mostly vast empty lands like Siberia. Most of the major Russian cities are located west near Europe. Or near coast.

No one cares about South Africa. Not even in real life.

Alaska serves no purpose to Zeon. They have the Middle East for Oil. And Alaska is much harsher. Not a lot of people live there compared to everywhere else.
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>>20560182
You are reading the map backwards. The pink-shaded areas are occupied by Zeon.
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>>20560156
>so what?
>So what?
Is that your shtick? Dismissing any information that contradicts your existing ideas with dumb snark?

I am going to spell out exactly what is going to happen, were the monks' plan to succeed: an entire city, with massively expensive infrastructure, is wiped off the moon's surface, alongside thousands of laborers.

>Not an actual loss to their personal wealth, just that it's not building anymore for a few years.
You seem to be confused between "personal incomes" and "corporate finances". Rebuilding from such a loss is a massively expensive endeavour, which would necessarily come from the company's funds. Funds that would not be growing during all the time that it takes to rebuild. You are making it seem like it's some terrorist bombing from which they can rebuild in a jiffy.

Let me give you an example: Mark Zuckerberg's personal net worth is about $124 billion US dollars. His company, Meta, has a market capitalization of about a trillion dollars, ten times more.
Another thing to keep in mind is that modern-day companies (and fortunes, for that matter) don't work with cash money. Their wealth comes from stock prices. And what do you think would happen to a company whose headquarters and main production plant are obliterated? It's more likely for AE to go bankrupt than to build back to the way they were. And, in the meantime, the Earth Federation still has a need for newer and better weapons, which they will be building in-house or from another supplier.

Although they recovered and still exist in some shape to this day by their names or as a successor company, the big corporations of the WWII era on the Axis side like Mitsubishi, Sumitomo, Krupp, IG Farben, Messerschmitt, etc are nowhere near the titans of industry they used to be in their heyday. None of those companies are at the top of the global corporate pyramid, like they used to be in the 1930s.
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>>20560156
>It'd take years, but so what? The people in charge would still be (a) alive, (b) rich and (c) in charge. So it'd take another 5 years to set up a new factory. So what? They still wouldn't have suffered any real consequence, beyond at most a pause in their income.

I think you underestimate how cheap the Federation really is.

This is the same Federation that left a few old Zakus and a 2 GMs to guard their nuclear stockpile on Earth.

This is the same Federation that said "Good. Less mouths to feed", when Haman killed hundreds of millions in another colony drop.

They aren't going to build new factories if one is cheaper to use elsewhere.
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>>20560259
>hundreds of millions
>a depopulated evacuating Dublin
Anon-chama your brain reps
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>>20560277
I think you and I both know a Colony drop is more devastating that just destroying a city.

There is huge missing hole where Sydney used to be. It looks like someone ripped out a piece of Australia. And half the Earth's human population died from one drop.

At the very least, Europe is screwed.
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>>20560156
>> Anon's interpretation: sounds like it just means minimal losses
Because it is if you actually read the rest of the paragraph that you cut out.

>In particular, the Zeon forces had lost much of their escort fleet. Two Chivvay-class heavy cruisers were sunk, and three were moderately damaged. Four Musai-class cruisers were sunk, five heavily damaged, and six moderately damaged. They had also lost roughly 140 mobile suits.

140 MS of over 4000 deployed MS by Zeon at the outset of the war were destroyed in the battle. It's about 3% of MS that Zeon had operating in the field from the start of the war. And 6 ships were sunk out of nearly 180. When EB39 says heavy losses it's pretty clear they mean for the fleet that carried out Operation British and not the whole of Zeon.

>The broader point though is that there is a basis for the idea Zeon were materially exhausted after the One Week Battle
That was only really true at the time of Revil's escape. Because in the following months Zeon proceeded to take over the vast majority of the Earth, most federation bases, and swept the rest of space. This is true of any source you use. Revil's declaration was proceeded by Zeon completely dominating the federation and pushing it into a corner of its own turf. Also, they built/fortified Solomon and ABQ (and Pezun) and captured Granada in the following months to cement their foothold in space and manufacture and develop ships and MS. It's pretty clear Zeon had more than enough fuel to keep going after the OYW, because they did, to a stunning success. Revil's speech is only interesting out of context, but it was honestly probably just bluster to keep people's hopes up. It doesn't reflect the remaining year of 0079.
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>>20560357
You're confused on how people died from Operation British. Turning Sydney into a crater and brand new bay probably instantly killed a few million, but the total casualties of 200+ million came from the other colony wreckage falling into the ocean and creating worldwide tidal waves.

The Dublin colony drop as well as the Lhasa asteroid drop a few years later combined didn't even kill as many people as operation British because neither of those drops hit with the same amount of force and neither landed in the ocean.
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>>20560357
I think you have not watched Gundam ZZ and I do not care about the words you type.
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>>20560587
How fucking big was that Colony to have such an effect?
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>>20560940
It's not that the colony was so big, it's that it was going incredibly fast. It was already rocketing towards earth and when it entered the atmosphere it went even faster as gravity pulled it down. It then hit Australia so hard it partly vaporized the continent (that's why it looks like a piece of Australia just disappeared), and the kinetic force from the colony impact transferred to the oceans causing the massive tidal waves.

This is from a physics perspective btw.
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>>20560587
Regarding Dublin, there is no way to "softly" do a colony drop. It's going to strike the ground hard and devastate whatever it hits. And probably create huge tsunamis devastating coastal cities.

In 0083 when the Colony drop hits central North America, the impact utterly WRECKS the continent. All farmland and greenery is destroyed. Most of North America is turned into a dry desert or arrid wasteland.

So clearly it's beyond just destroying one city. A Colony drop is "continent level" of destructive power.
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>>20561278
Cool story but have you considered watching Gundam ZZ
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Even Tomino has admitted he didn't care about consistency in ZZ Gundam. His main concern was to make the audience laugh and be a funny comedy. Don't try to so hard to make ZZ fit in with the rest of UC Gundam.
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>>20560182

We have no idea what matters in UC really. What we do know is that the 3 locations that the Federation chose as HQs are Jaburo, Dakar and Lhasa; none of which would be the site of major capitals today, given our own considerations. And that Odessa was the most important mining location Zeon had; which doesn't line up all that well with reality either.

>>20560235

> I am going to spell out exactly what is going to happen, were the monks' plan to succeed: an entire city, with massively expensive infrastructure, is wiped off the moon's surface, alongside thousands of laborers.

Why are you telling me the thing I said would happen in my first post as if it's some great revelation?

> You seem to be confused between "personal incomes" and "corporate finances".

I think you're the one confused, because a corporate manager's personal wealth will grow as their corporation grows but generally doesn't shrink if their company is in trouble, because their wealth is usually not tied up in company stock or anything. The funds for the company will not be growing as they are rebuilding, but the money to do so won't be coming out of the manager's pockets either. Which is why I said it'd put a pause on their wealth, at most. Which is assuming they don't have other major income streams.

> in the meantime, the Earth Federation still has a need for newer and better weapons, which they will be building in-house or from another supplier.

The Earth Federation in both normal UC and Thunderbolt, anime and manga, build most of their own hardware, so the loss of AE won't really hurt them and AE won't lose a massive contract either. They are now working on Bull-Gs and Mk II's for the Federation apparently, but the Federation construct Balls, Gundams, GMs etc. themselves.
>>
> the big corporations of the WWII era on the Axis side like Mitsubishi, Sumitomo, Krupp, IG Farben, Messerschmitt, etc are nowhere near the titans of industry they used to be in their heyday

The only top 10 company from the Fortune 500 still within even the top 20 today is Exxon Mobile. A few more (GM and Ford) are hanging on at 21/22, while two more (IBM and General Electric) are around the 40 mark; the other 5 don't even exist anymore, so far as I know, and were either bought out or just went bankrupt. If you go back to 1920, Ford is the only major company from the time who even exists anymore. Businesses usually have a quite short shelf life, especially at the top; and it doesn't require the destruction of a major site to put them out of the way.

Nor would the destruction of Von Braun even destroy all of AE's facilities; at least, not unless Thunderbolt has restructured them compared to normal UC. AE have factories in several major Moon cities. Von Braun is just one, but there are also bases at Granada even just sticking to Zeta, along with factory spaceships like the La Vie en Rose. One of the main criticisms of AE in Char's Counterattack was that the different facilities supported different organizations, so the loss of one factory wouldn't really impact the other factories or the company as a whole.

>>20560259

I think you're conflating the Federation and AE, as well as putting out of mind just how good the construction in UC must necessarily be to say the colonies exist. They can build entire countries, essentially, in a handful of years. So why would AE rebuilding a factory in a few years be unreasonable?
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>>20560562

> When EB39 says heavy losses it's pretty clear they mean for the fleet that carried out Operation British

I wasn't saying otherwise; only that Zeon are noted to have suffered heavy losses in general, and multiple sources say so. Gundam Century talks about the defense of Isle Iffish being a lot more devastating, the novels talk about Loum being devastating for Zeon etc. The general picture is, and always has been, that Zeon suffered material exhaustion themselves after the first few weeks of the war. The specifics differ according to source, but they do agree on that much. Which is why Revil could gin up Federation spirits by pointing out how exhausted Zeon are.

> That was only really true at the time of Revil's escape.

It was true for quite a while afterwards too. At the time of Revil's escape, the state of the Sides was:

> Side 1: Destroyed
> Side 2: Destroyed
> Side 3: Zeon's home Side
> Side 4: Destroyed
> Side 5: Destroyed
> Side 6: Neutral
> Side 7: Federation aligned

That didn't change one whit between Revil's speech and the start of the show 9 months or so later. Zeon didn't make any advances in space afterwards. Ever. Which is because they didn't have the forces to do so, and spent those months building their resources back up. Which, yes, included building up Solomon, but that was only part of building back up their forces and not an expansion of any kind. It's also why the ground war was mostly fought using infantry, planes and tanks, with some minor mobile suit support and not mostly using mobile suits. The ground war itself is kind of proof of Zeon's exhaustion too though, because while Zeon made great strides in the first few weeks of the invasion they mostly did so because the Federation was in chaos following the colony drop.
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Once the Federation got their shit together, they stopped losing ground to Zeon and things held out in a stalemate for 6 months or more until the series starts. It's only when both sides have started to recover materially, as well as pump out new units and weapons that things begin to get dynamic again in the war. It's mostly a stalemate between about April and October of UC0079.

That said, Granada had been Zeon controlled for a while as far as I know and ultimately seen as unimportant by both sides according to other sources. If you look at what Entertainment Bible 39 has to say on it, for instance:

> As for Von Braun City and the other permanent settlements on the moon's Earth side, which were originally established as colony construction bases, from the beginning they were excluded as attack targets because neither the Federation nor Zeon needed them. Their governments continued to carefully watch and wait.

>>20560970

It wasn't actually going that fast. The only speed I've ever seen for it is 11 km/s. Which is a little slower than the Chixilub impactor thought to have killed the dinosaurs was going (12km/s is the estimated speed). Only, the Chixilub impactor was both bigger and way, way denser. And it still caused a smaller impact. The Chixilub impactor created a crater about 150km wide and 20km deep; the Operation British crater in Australia is up to 500km wide depending on the source.
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>>20559816
The GM Quel is almost identical to the GM Custom but modified slightly use inside colonies. The kit manual also mentions slight adjustments to the arm as a precursor to the MK IIs movable frame.

The AEUG wouldn't use Quels for the same reason as they wouldn't use Hizacks. Quels were the original Titans machine so they'd be using a symbol of the enemy.
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>>20561698
That was his point.
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>>20561626
It was more the Zeon's fault for relaxing than the Federation. Making a comeback.

The one major thing that would have changed the war would have been Zeon getting beam equipped mobile suits much sooner to their Veteran pilots. Beam weapons are a huge force multiplier. It would have turns the ties.

Imagine Norris Packard with Custom Gelgoog instead of an old Gouf Custom. He would have shredded the 08th Ms Team and ground forces guarding the city.

Now multiply that to every single Zeon MS pilot on Earth using a Gelgoog. The War would have been far different.
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>>20561782

Zeon didn't really relax though, and they came up with a lot of different new mobile weapons in a relatively short span of time as they were building back up their military. They designed several new types of mobile suits: the Gouf, Dom (and Rick Dom; kinda) and Gelgoog, with both the Dom and Gelgoog designed to replace the Zaku II as their mainstay suit in a given field (Earth and space), a handful of aquatic suits and several mobile armor designs while trying to design a new, more high offensive weapon that didn't need to be as mobile as a mobile suit.

Those designs incorporated some new technology too, like the Adzam having the ability to float thanks to a minituarized Minosky craft system, the Braw Bro, Elmeth and Zeong incorporating remote weapons and the Big Zam using an i-field. They designed the Colony Laser on top of that too.

They just couldn't innovate fast enough. Which isn't really a fault, and the solution isn't "just innovate faster", because there's nothing indicating that's even possible. They could have dropped some of the designs they did make, but we don't know how much newer and more successful designs relied on those older, shittier ones. It's all very well to say "drop the Braw Bro" for instance, but the Braw Bro probably gave a good bit of insight that the Elmeth and Zeong relied upon.

Also, one of the central points of the fact "Zeon is exhausted" is that they don't have a huge pool of ace pilots left after the One Week Battle. Char stood out so much at least partially because he was one of the few who survived that long. Gelgoogs would do some good if they could push them out earlier, but probably not that much, because there wouldn't be a large pool of people capable of really pushing them. They're not going to be as effective on Earth as in space, where they were designed to operate, either.
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>>20561623
>because a corporate manager's personal wealth will grow as their corporation grows but generally doesn't shrink if their company is in trouble, because their wealth is usually not tied up in company stock or anything.
Yes, it is. Corporate compensations are usually in stock options. The huge fortunes of Bezos, Musk and the rest are not cash money, but stock in the companies they lead.

>Which is assuming they don't have other major income streams.
Headquartered in Von Braun.
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>>20561623
>The Earth Federation in both normal UC and Thunderbolt, anime and manga, build most of their own hardware, so the loss of AE won't really hurt them and AE won't lose a massive contract either. They are now working on Bull-Gs and Mk II's for the Federation apparently, but the Federation construct Balls, Gundams, GMs etc. themselves.
Incorrect. Anaheim created the RX-78 in Thunderbolt.
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>>20561623
>>20561972
Gundams, Guncannons, GMs. The Federation in Thunderbolt would be decimated were they to lose AE.
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>>20561969

> Corporate compensations are usually in stock options.

Yes, and most really wealthy corporate managers sell their own stock and put it in other companies, or invest it in other ways entirely; such as in land, housing, art etc. At least partially because very few of them want their entire fortune dependent on the rather volatile performance of their own company and nothing else, when a more diverse stock portfolio gives more protection against the fluidity of the market and other assets can be a lot less dynamic in general.

> Headquartered in Von Braun.

What has that got to do with anything? Do you think someone living in Von Braun can't invest in anything not located in Von Braun? Not even companies whose assets include stuff outside Von Braun?

>>20561972

Io is told in the first few chapters that the Full Armor he's piloting is from Jaburo. The Federation designed and built the units originally. AE took over the contracts at some point, but the Federation are perfectly capable of doing it themselves. Which is the same as in the normal order of things, really. The Federation just waits longer before handing off the AE in normal UC, mostly building their own stuff until some time around UC0090.
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>>20561982
So Unicorn's purpose is to villainize the Federation, while Thunderbolt's purpose is to villainize the AE too.
The Feddies just can't catch a break from wokeness.
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>>20561850
>Those designs incorporated some new technology too, like the Adzam having the ability to float thanks to a minituarized Minosky craft system, the Braw Bro, Elmeth and Zeong incorporating remote weapons and the Big Zam using an i-field. They designed the Colony Laser on top of that too.

None of those are the beam rifle.

Everything you listed here is secondary or tertiary technology that isn't applicable to the common soldier.

The beam rifle (and beam saber somewhat) was a game changer for everyone.
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>>20561850
>the Gouf
Flawed design that had overly complex finger bullets rhat was worse than a Zaku machine gun. And wasn't backwards compatible with older weapons either. Zeon had to replace the finger bullet hands in later Gouf batches with regular hands just so it could hold a Zaku machine gun properly.

>Dom
A ground only suit that Came too late. Not enough available during the ground war on Earth. Barely any available at the Battle of Odessa.

By the time Zeon was making them in any meaningful numbers, Zeon was already retreating from Earth. And Beam weapons made the heavy Dom armor useless. Needed to be deployed sooner to hold Odessa.

>(and Rick Dom; kinda)
A compromise suit made from leftover Dom frames. Zeon didn't want to waste Dom suits that didn't get shipped to Earth. So they modified the Dom to work in space. But unfortunately its mass was very high, it was slow to turn in space. It would guzzle fuel making operational time shorter than other suits.

>and Gelgoog
The only suit that would have made a difference. But came waaaaay too late. Needed be deployed a few weeks early for Zeon to hold the line. A few months sooner if Zeon wanted to win

>a handful of aquatic suits
Largely pointless since the Federation never tried to fight for the oceans, and don't have any important holdings near the water. The Federation ignored the oceans entirely. Zeon should have diverted resources to getting the Gelgoog out sooner.

>and several mobile armor designs.
Zeon made mobile armors as a vanity project but also as a way to make up for their killed soldiers. They couldn't replace their troops fast enough so they wanted to make their existing soldiers stronger.

A solid idea. But all their mobile armors were never made in the numbers needed. For whatever reason the MAs were always oneoffs and never oparated in groups.

If Solomon had 3 Big Zams instead of just 1, then they might have beat back the Federation. Or at the very least Dozle could have survived.
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>>20562015
>Io is told in the first few chapters that the Full Armor he's piloting is from Jaburo.

Io literally doesn't have much involvement in his family business. He's basically a black sheep. Io could have been told in passing by someone who thought it was from Jaburo. Just a casual remark by someone who doesn't know better.

But clearly Thunderbolt establishes that AE is the manufacturer in later chapters. AE even says they made so much money from selling the Gundam and GM to the Federation.
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>>20562195

To which I'd reply (a) they probably couldn't speed up research of it, since they need to design stronger reactors and miniaturized beam weaponry for that and they still seemed to be struggling through that with the amphibious suits only a few weeks before the Gelgoog debuted, and that (b) Zeon needed technology the Federation didn't have, technology that could overwhelm them, to win.

Zeon's biggest successes, and only possible avenue of success was to technologically outstrip the Federation, because they cannot keep up with them in terms of resources. They did great when they had mobile suits to the Federation's ships, and they needed something that re-established that gap in ability again, be it mobile armors with greater power or terrain advantages, remote weaponry, effective immunity to beam weaponry etc. Beam weapons just put them on par, not in the lead. Which is unlikely to be enough.
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>>20562234

He was told it by the captain of his ship, after the Federation ship it to them.
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>>20562015
>Yes, and most really wealthy corporate managers sell their own stock and put it in other companies, or invest it in other ways entirely; such as in land, housing, art etc.
Because a bulk of corporate compensation is handed out as stock in the lieu of cash, contracts usually prohibit doing anything with the stock.

>At least partially because very few of them want their entire fortune dependent on the rather volatile performance of their own company and nothing else, when a more diverse stock portfolio gives more protection against the fluidity of the market and other assets can be a lot less dynamic in general.
During the Enron debacle, CEO Ken Lay had to do short-term loans with his stock as collateral to get money for his debts, rather than just selling them outright. Why? For the reason I explained above.

>Io is told in the first few chapters that the Full Armor he's piloting is from Jaburo.
>The Federation designed and built the units originally.
>but the Federation are perfectly capable of doing it themselves.
No correlation. GP01 was built in Von Braun by Anaheim, taken to Jaburo and sent to Torrington for testing. In that page, AE director Wellington says the RX-78 is ANAHEIM's greatest success. Meaning, it was built by them.
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>>20562015
>Jaburo
It doesn't mean it was built at Jaburo. It could be built at another location, shipped to Jaburo, then redirected to whatever fleets that needed reinforcements. Jaburo could just be a big hub for redirecting shipments.
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>>20561707
Yes I agree but the Titans did use GM Cannon IIs though. You could say they technically used the Custom since the Quel is practically a pallet swap.
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>>20562223
>If Solomon had 3 Big Zams instead of just 1, then they might have beat back the Federation. Or at the very least Dozle could have survived.
Agree with 80% of your post, but this one is my favorite
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>>20562293

> contracts usually prohibit doing anything with the stock

Yeah, that's horseshit. CEO's made more selling stocks of their own company last year than any year on record, and the news was quite happy to talk about it in articles like this: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/01/ceos-and-insiders-sell-a-record-69-billion-of-their-stock.html

I don't know the specifics of Ken Lay's case, but most articles I can see on a quick browse just say that he sold $70 million dollars in stock to use as collateral on debts, not that he used those stocks as short term loans.

> In that page, AE director Wellington says the RX-78 is ANAHEIM's greatest success. Meaning, it was built by them.

Which is also not a definitive statement, and could just mean selling it after the Federation gave them the contract is their biggest money maker. There are multiple statements during the earlier parts of Thunderbolt that imply the Federation designed and built their early units, with Cornelius also talking about how the Federation should build more prototype Gundams as another example.
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>>20562658

The page in question, by the way.
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>>20562658
As someone who used to work in Federal contracting this is pretty common with DBB contracts. The government comes up with a design then gives it to a private firm to produce, so the statement could be referring to the Federation creating the design (and initial prototype) and then having Anaheim produce more of them and/or replacement parts.

When it comes to aviation though typically the government throws out a spec package with the RFP and multiple contractors come up with their designs to meet those criteria.
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>>20562687

Thunderbolt as a work doesn't really care about making events in UC more realistic/plausible, and a lot of the manga lines up with how things are portrayed in classic UC. It's why there is still some debate about whether it even is (or needs to be) an alternate UC. The original show, and even into Zeta and ZZ portrayed the Federation as mostly designing and building their own suits, and it's only in later works that they start relying on AE or SNRI to do it for them. The early parts of Thunderbolt definitely imply the same thing is happening, and that both the Federation and Zeon are the ones responsible for designing and building a lot of their units, before AE take over the Federation contracts after the One Year War.
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>>20562719
Agreed, AE doesn't become a major player until Zeta when they start supporting the AEUG. There's been a lot of retconning since then both in UC, Origin & Thunderbolt continuity making AE more of a major player. Even the Thoroughbred manga has AE popping to provide supplies for Units 4 & 5.

I've got no problem with them being a major subcontractor during the OYW (same as Yashima, Bowa, etc.) but I dislike it when they start to act like it was AE all along doing the development. 0083 was meant to be the first time AE got heavily involved doing MS from scratch, there's no reason to push the date further back.
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>>20562236
>they needed something that re-established that gap in ability again
The only way that Massive tech gap was gonna happen was to build the Colony Laser faster. Or some sort of giant rail gun to shoot Jaburo from Orbit.

Although the Gelgoog could would have helped. An experienced Ace seems to be able to take out multiple GMs with it. Zeon just needed to stop letting their Aces die. Students can't draw out the full potential of the suit.
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>>20563737

The Federation debuted a colony weapon before Zeon though, with the Solar System. It doesn't have the range or power of a colony laser, but it's smaller, easier to transport and seemingly more resilient, since the Federation could fire a second shit even after a large amount of mirrors were destroyed, while AEUG disabled the Gryps colony laser by destroying a handful of it's reflectors.



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