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File: VIOLENCE HAS ARRIVED.jpg (176 KB, 1920x1080)
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Is this the pinnacle of "White Devil" in Gundam? I know the name originally went to Amuro in the RX-78-2 but Barbatos Lupus Rex is a monster in every sense of the word. Which Gundam do you think best exemplifies the title of "White Devil"?
>>
probably one that wouldn't get its ass bifurcated by a GM
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>>20541297
That's a mindless beast not a devil
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It does cash in on the Gundam-as-mythical-badass angle that gets floated around throughout IBO, where a Gundam is always an ominous sign of turmoil and change within the near future.

So in that sense it channels the White Devil motif in an on the nose fashion.
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KIMARIS Vidar is
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>>20541337
what you posted is probably the worst drawing of Kimaris I have ever seen
it looks like it has fucking clown shoes
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>>20541318
Really? You think the cow-toting laundry machine is a real devil?
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>>20541353
>poser IBO fan hasn't seen Turn A
I believe it
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>>20541353
The devil comes in many forms, friend.
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>>20541297

I would think it more fitting of a beast epithet than a devil personally, despite being quite literally named for one.

>>20541315

Is there an actual source for the idea someone (the writer? I think) said it'd be defeated by a GM. I've seen it said quite often here, but never with a source.

>>20541353

As opposed to the static power station?
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>>20541356
Okay, well I'll be right here uniting Ameria with my dress on.
>disintigrating rifle
>moon whales
>surfing gravity in a barrel
>heaven's bagworm
>MEAT! MEAT! MEAT!
>Sochie opening her cockpit right after a nuke
How the fuck do you think I knew about the cows and the laundry if I hadn't seen it?
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>>20541368
>Is there an actual source for the idea someone (the writer? I think) said it'd be defeated by a GM. I've seen it said quite often here, but never with a source.
A writer is cited as saying it but the source I've seen is if you look at the Gundam Evolution marketing materials, one of the things included was a profile of various mobile suits explaining what their stats were and which mobile suits countered them from across the metaseries. For Barbatos, the counter listed is an RGM-79.
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>>20541392
if you're just retarded it's okay to admit it
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>>20541297
Not surprising since all of the gundam frames in IBO are named after demons from the ars goetia. With that motiff theyd better be pretty devily.
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>>20541297
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>>20541422
Proof?
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>>20541455
yeah but they're not
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>>20541462
Which one isn't?
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>>20541489
which ones ARE?
Kimaris Trooper is the only one which looks even a little bit like its namesake
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>>20541422

I really doubt that's the source, because Evolution is a relatively new game that hasn't even released yet to my knowledge and the idea has been floating around with years. Evolution wasn't even announced till about 6 or 9 months ago, if I recall. I would presume that information is based on gameplay mechanics, with one countering the other; at a guess. I can't find that information on a quick search, but I would be shocked if every unit didn't list another unit from the game as a counter given what you've said of it.
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>>20541337
Is this by Junichi Akutsu?
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>>20541392
You just listed a bunch of Turn A memes that most learn through osmosis.
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>>20541496
Kimaris rides a horse, he isn't one.
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>>20541496
Named after, not modeled as far as I can tell.
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>>20541519
>>20541496
Trooper has centaur legs and KVidar has hooves for legs
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>>20541422
>Gundam Evolution
I'd guess that has more to do with in-game stats (and probably for basic Barbatos not Lupus Rex) than in-universe comparison. The responsiveness of the AV system is at or above psycoframe so even if you ignore the nanolaminate armor being beam-proof (or assume IBO had weak beams) they shouldn't be comparable. In-universe they may be a match in things like thrust or movement speed (until Barbatos gets tuned and upgraded) but there's no way an original GM is going to move like Lupus Rex in the final episode.
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>>20541460
well, looking back through the trailer and some of the other e-leaflets that were released with the announcement I don't see that page anymore so it's possible it was just shooped by someone to make it seem like it was an official image to sneak it in with all the other discussion that was being posted around that time


>>20541498
>I would presume that information is based on gameplay mechanics, with one countering the other; at a guess.
>>20541541
>I'd guess that has more to do with in-game stats (and probably for basic Barbatos not Lupus Rex) than in-universe comparison.

Right, that's absolutely correct. If compared just by their on screen capabilities there's no way a GM would ever stand a chance vs Barbatos given that the weapons that made the GM compelling in its own timeline won't even scratch any mobile suit in PD and the Barbatos is ungodly fast on its own, AV system or not. I was under the impression that's where the meme originally came from though, which i guess is incorrect now that I'm seeing posts from well before Evolution's announcement about it
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>>20541510
You want more obscure memories? How about that crazy fuck that has the Wing flashback whittling a little statue while talking to some kids? Or the chess-board tiles in Agrippa Maintainer's place having rise-up pillars in them? Gym killing the fat fuck with the fish lips? Or the fact that Gym's group only did simulator battles prior to the events of Turn A? The redheaded kid stealing the Turn A? Sochie being pissed as fuck at the ending? The weird clown girl flying away in the ending with the dude who was gay for Loran (I can't think of his name and googling would be cheating)?
I fucking watched it. It's been a long time, though, and I only ever re-watched it once because it's not really one of my favorite Gundams. It was better than Wing or Reco but that's about all I'll give it.
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>>20541455
>>20541489

They really aren't as despite the demon names they were built intended to be heroic knight figures to save the world from Mobile Armor. Which is why Bael is so heroic and protagonist looking as it was piloted by the worlds Messiah figure.

The only time they really look demonic is when Barbatos turns the limiter off, which only happens twice. Vidar is probably the only Gundam that actually looks evil and that's just a glorified disguise.
>>
>>
There's a Gundam literally called The Devil Gundam, and that wasn't anyone's first choice?
.
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>>20541566
I always took it as a thematic reference to the fact that all the gundams exact a toll on the pilots in order to receive their "gifts". The risky spine surgeries, Mika continually losing the use of more and more of his body, etc. Its pushing it but even Bael basically costs McGillis everything in the end. The valiant Knights of Yore, unearthed in the future as demons who destabilize the world they created in the first place. There's a lot of cool subtext going on with the frames.
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>>20541583
Yeah but that's because of other factors like the crappy 2nd hand AV devices and Mcgillis being an idiot. With the proper AV system there's little risk, and all the Seven Star originators fought in countless battles with their Gundam's destroyed many MA and came home alive and well to start families and rule and live prosperous lives.
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>>20541583
00 had a lot of that going on, too, where everyone who gets involved with the Gundams basically has their whole life eaten by them. In both 00 and IBO they're treated kind of like cursed weapons, things that shouldn't exist but are too powerful to not take advantage of.
>>20541580
It's red.
>>
Barbatos doesn't even come close to the hell path Amuro ripped through Zeon, especially in the back half of 0079.
Even with shit like the Blue Destiny units going mass slaughter with the EXAM system, and all the other bullshit from 0079, no one ever matched the sheer terror Amuro instilled in Zeon.
The White Devil moniker exists literally because of Amuro Ray.
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>>20541625
I mean in 00 they eventually do become a positive thing in everyone's life, Setsuna for example probably would have eventually crumbled in despair if not for his role as a Gundam pilot eventually making him into a Messiah. Meanwhile in IBO the only one to pilot a Gundam and walk away alive was Gaelio and he still ended up in a wheelchair.
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>>20541297
To me it barbstos fells more like a white demon than a white devil when compared to turn a as the former is much more intimidating looking and unaturally powerful at the expense of the pilot while turn a is an exisitential threat.
Aesthetically barbatos does look the most like what the white devil would look like if we went off the name alone.
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Somebody post that screencap of zeon calling the RX78 the white devil because morphing abilities. I can't seem to find it in the archives.
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>>20541668
Eh...
Turn A is carrying a WMD, no doubt about the threat that poses. Other than that it's not very threatening at all. Unless, of course, you throw in all the crazy stuff it can do in the two contradictory novelizations. It's actually one of the most friendly looking Gundams there is, and the tone of its show is very lighthearted (for the most part). Aside from the scale of destruction of their respective WMDs the GP02 is much more of a "devil" character than the Turn A. Even when it goes berserk and refuses pilot commands it just seals itself and the Turn X away forever.

Okay, sure, it *did* destroy all of human civilization once. I guess I shouldn't overlook that.
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>>20541607
Ya but apparently they were far better pilots than Mika who is our main point of reference. Nothing is really said about McGillis but he outpaces Mika by simply having the correct non-bootleg AV system installed to his spine. All of the old Gundam pilots had top of the line AV systems and on top of that were excellent pilots. Mika is an absolute chump compared to them
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>>20541783
Mcgillis was one of the best pilots in the show just with standard controls, as he was able to keep up with Mika who was using the AV implant, easily take out Aston who was also using one and beat Gaelio's Gundam with an inferior Grimgerde (although neither had the AV at that point)

So yeah combine that skill WITH AV and Mcgillis was pretty broken despite Bael's otherwise lame weaponry as shown with how he zips around and pulls off all kinds of fancy sword tricks in the finale.
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>>20541337
Man something like this makes me wish it could be animated with this much detail.
But that’s impossible without CG.
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Wasn’t the Lancelot called the “white reaper” by some point? Can’t remember if it was by EU or Japanese rebel forces.
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>>20541318
this, im not that big on turn A as a series but i do love how powerful and mystical the turn A gundam is despite doing fuck all throughout the entire series.. the horror from corin when he sees it as well, corin was the most interesting character from the whole show
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>>20541573
The real White Devil.
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>>20541315
>>20541368
>>20541422
here's the image the feat is usually sited from
the actual interview's hard to track down but both the image and the interview predate Gundam Evolution
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>>20542451
OH NO NO NO NO IBOFAGS ABSOLUTELY BTFO’D
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>>20542451
>imagine being assblasted by GMs
And people are drooling for IBO mecha in power level discussions?
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>>20541297
>Is this the pinnacle of "White Devil" in Gundam?
No, this will always be the pinnacle of White Devil in Gundam that best exemplifies the title.

Monikers never ever refer to the suit. Even the abilities of the best and most top of the line suits are always attributed to the pilot's abilities throughout Gundam. Because even the best suits are worthless without a pilot who can bring out the best of it.
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>>20541561
>if compared just by their on screen capabilities there's no way a GM would ever stand a chance vs Barbatos
I dunno... From everything I've seen I think UC has way hotter beams than PD.
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>>20542539
Fine; the Flesh-tone Devil.
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>>20542594
Heat doesn't mean much if the bulk of the energy is yeeted away instead. Nanolaminate is anti beam coating on crack, which creates conflicting narratives about how it is that the early mobile suits of the OG continuity are supposed to deal, unless PD era is that heavily handicapped by its apocalypse.
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>>20542531
It was Zeon soldiers who gave the Gundam the nickname "White Devil" though, not people who knew Amuro.
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>>20542602
Ignore him, "weak beams" is just the cope that people who weren't impressed with IBO use to tell themselves that their favorite UC era MS would beat Barbatos.
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>>20542609
PD definitely has weak beams. You can tell this because the ammo on Ride's Shiden didn't instantly cook off when hit by Hashmal's main gun.
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>>20542451
I'm all for shitting on lupus rex but that sounds absolutely ridiculous considering all the crazy shit it does in ibo
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>>20541881
Ya, the only reason he loses in the end is because he tosses away his extra sword at the very end, had he kept it he would have beaten Gaelio pretty handedly.

Its funny you mention him beating Gaelio while in the Grimgerde though as I think it shows how pointless the Gundam frame is when not utilizing the AV system that the inferior Valkyrie frame is able to keep up with an even exceed a Gundam in terms of performance. I think the AV system is required to squeeze out any real performance from a Gundam frame
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>>20542451
Maybe specs wise but literally all of the ground type IBO MS would shit on every OYW MS in terms of maneuverability on the ground. The only thing that holds a candle to them would be the Dom. Every IBO MS has Dom tier zippyness on land basically. Other than that I don't mind the idea that they are all pretty low performance compared to something from the UC timeline
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>>20542451

You're right, it is hard to track down. As in, I couldn't find anything about it in on a quick search of Francis Bernardo's Facebook group Love Gundam, nor by Googling any of the apparent interview. Not even in Japanese.

So I can't say as I buy it, personally. Not without a source, at least. As is, it's literally just an image. One that doesn't even make particular sense, since (a) it features Tomino as the face, rather than anything to do with IBO and (b) the second paragraph, the note about overestimating UC tech, appears to go against the entire grain of the actual, supposed interview.
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>>20541718
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>>20541353
>Destroy entire civilizations
>not devil
OP's junk is a poser.
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>>20542602
the beams in IBO are made from ahab particles not minovsky particles
there's no guarantee anti-beam coating would work against ahab beams nor is there guarantee that nanolaminate would work against minovksy beams
same for GN particles and the like
however, >>20542643 is right; the fact that PD mechs can tank beams but the beams don't seem to show any sign of actually being hot should tell you enough
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>>20542972
IBO mechs degenerated to caveman era. Just hit the enemy with a sharp or blunt object is the only tactic they use
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>>20542769
That first sword got broken, that's why he tossed it away. Though Gaelio won both fights with pure plot armor. Their first one Bael beat Kimaris in their joust and disarmed the lance and was prepared to counter the drill knee and finish it but Mcgillis's hand injury from Almira acted up at the worst possible moment and messed up his follow through. In their next one he's winning until Gaelio overclocks the AV-E and still makes it a draw and then when they have their final shoot out Mcgillis fires first and gets a perfect headshot but Gaelio's Vidar helmet protects him.
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>>20542280
Yeah during the period between shows when Suzaku would just barge into various battlefields independently and smash the hell out of the EU guys.
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>>20542776
Even in space they show crazy manuvering that puts UC grunts and even some Gundam's to shame. The only thing IBO MS's seem to come up short is weapons since it's mostly smashing and weak guns and the collateral damage even with stuff like the Dainsielfs isn't near what most other Gundam's and their ridiculous beam cannons can pull off.
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>>20543002
someone hasn't seen late UC
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It's cute seeing IBOtards expose how little they know of UC.

Efreet Kai was doing *teleports behind you* and Unit 01 was chucking entire GM's with one hand back in the 90's. Your feats of speed and strength mean squat.
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>>20542643

The Shiden Custom's rifle cooks off almost instantly and the explosion is what destroys the unit's hand, even though the beam is hitting the center chest and not the hand or the rifle.
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>>20542991
I'm still absolutely buttmongled that Gaelio had souch plot armor that fucked over Mackey so hard. It's really a shame the last arc of season 2 was so rushed because I would have loved for there to have been more room to see Mackey do stuff and lead his rebellion
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>>20543071
If the shield is reflecting the beam then ammo stored behind it should be fine. I'd say this is evidence against the beam weapons in IBO being complete shit
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>>20543038
>he thinks any of that is canon
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>>20541297
>>20541318
Too weak to be White Devils
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>>20543133
Strike Freedom is too angelic and holy for that. At least the regular Freedom looked geniunely sinister in some shots when Kira was questionably making things worse.
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>bro this energy source reactor thing that’s poorly written and thought out even for Gundam standards can completely ignore physics and makes superheated plasma its bitch
No wonder people like IBO
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>>20543105
>I'd say this is evidence against the beam weapons in IBO being complete shit
Except we see Hashmal's beam absolutely tear through like a good kilometer of mars soil immediately after waking from a 300 year dirt nap in a crater. Most handheld beam weapons in other shows don't even do that much damage to the terrain
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>>20543143
UC's fluff established that they had nearly perfect mirror coatings that could totally deflect laser weapons, which is one of the reasons why laser weapons fell out of vogue and were replaced by conventional weapons and beam weapons. Don't pretend any of the others are any better. Not to mention beam coating and I-field are things. The FA ZZ flies through several seconds of a barrage with just a coating, completely unharmed
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>>20543136
>too angelic and holy
That’s what makes it an even better white devil analogue retard. The contrast between an elegant, winged machine built to free this world from the shackles of evil designed in the spitting image of a stereotypical angel reigning down widespread destruction to assert its omnipotence and overwhelmingly tyrannical dominion would be immaculate if not for Seed Destiny’s latter half sucking Nikocado ass.
IBOtards can’t into symbolism huh
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>>20543155
Destiny is the best.
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>>20543133
>>20543136
>>20543155
strike freedom is a worse design than barbatos and there is zero symbolism to it besides "le wings" in which case that would mean EW Wing is more symbolic
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>>20543155
That's all kind of bullshit right there.
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>>20543164
The symbolism comes from it launching and immediately effortlessly destroying your ship and its retinue of mobile suits, leaving you disabled in space with no hope and no rescue in sight
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>>20543169
That's never how it actually works in CE though.
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>>20543168
Go watch more Gundam outside of your safe space
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>>20543145
Sorry I meant to say NOT complete shit. I agree with you that the beam weapons seem to be pretty good
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>>20543169
oh so it's just an uglier and shittier V2? Got it
>>20543171
quote me where I said I liked IBO
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>>20543145
While I agree I'd consider Hashmals beam to be less handheld beam rifle tier and more mounted heavy beam cannon level of fire power. Those can sometimes do quite a bit of damage to the area if they miss.
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>>20541318
I like how the Turn A instead became something of an "angel of death" instead of a devil. The thing mysteriously reappears every time humanity advances too far and kicks them back down to the stone age, time after time again. A fitting reaper.
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>>20542839
I swear, there's an antagonist in Rokujouma who's exactly like this. At one point he even launches funnels from a mech that's not equipped with them. And it's all played for horror.
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>>20543189
I don’t want to hear anything about ugly mobile suits from a Victoryfag
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>>20543232
lmao delusional SEEDfag
CE has the ugliest mobile suits in the entire franchise, meanwhile late UC has some the best
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>>20543240
You’re deranged if you think the Strike isn’t a master-class in mobile suit design but the Gedlav or Memedorza is
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>>20543244
the Shokew is a better design than every single grunt in CE
the Gengaozo is a better design than every Gundam in CE
the Godzorla, Doggorla, and Memedorza as designs were on their own better ideas than SEED and Destiny combined
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>>20543256
You’re mentally ill
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>>20543244
>>20543256
>>20543261
Please dont fight. They all look the same either way.
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>>20543261
>You’re mentally ill
I know, but that doesn't make me wrong
>>20543262
wrong,
though, come to think of it, Providence IS just a shitty Gengaozo
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>>20543261
>SEEDcuck
>calling others mentally ill

Who am I kidding, all gundamfags are mentally ill. It comes with the territory.
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>>20543273
EVERYONE on this board is mentally ill.
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>>20543299

If having an opinion is an illness, then everyone is ill.
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>>20543299
>>20543309
then nobody is ill
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>>20543309
Opinions are fine. Unless you disagree with MINE you little shit then you are ill idiot god damn harghflarglesixtyninebbq
>>
CE-side of the thread: I'm honestly more partial to the base GAT-01 and GuAIZ than I am to literally any other suit in SEED, because one's a rushed yet functional mech, the other honestly just looks cool

But similarly I like the Denan Gei and Heavygun out of F91...

IBO side of the thread, I think the GM could actually beat the regular Barbatos, but you need a bunch to do it by overwhelming it
>>
The thing with IBO mobile suits is that they're crazy durable. I don't think we ever see a single one get completely destroyed over the course of the series. Even random grunts that get completely pulped by Mikazuki still leave pretty intact wrecks behind. Cranks Graze got the mace point slammed straight through the cockpit and they were still able to repair and refit it later on. That never happens in any other universe were any major hit makes an MS completely go boom.

It's not even plot armor like in AC where Leo's blow up if someone so much as breathes on them unless they're piloted by a main character and then they can get totally ventilated and still hold together long enough for the pilot to bail as even the random mooks in IBO hold together even if the pilots die horribly.
>>
>>20543390
What are you even talking about? Most series follow the UC logic of big booms caused by hitting the reactor, or totally saturation kill where tons of firepower is dumped.
Shit man, Kshat Repair existed before IBO did and it didn't go boom until it ate a beam magnum literally through the cockpit and reactor.
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>>20543415
Kshatriya is an usual exception and mostly because Banagher is doing his best Jesus Yamato impression half the time and deliberately trying not to destroy the suits.
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>Thinking Barbatos wouldn't get reduced to ash after getting grazed by a Beam magnum shot
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>>20543390
>The thing with IBO mobile suits is that they're crazy durable
LOL
This is all I have to say: s5e7
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>>20543390
Being durable didn't mean much since it's they're just slamming each other with metal bats. Even the other shows have vibro blades and heat weapons.
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>>20543390
The episode where Amida dies, we see her and Ride blowing up grunts with potshots from their machine guns.
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>>20543415
>Most series follow the UC logic of big booms caused by hitting the reactor
No they don't. Suits routinely blow up just from having their head blown off in Zeta and MSG. Leos sometimes just randomly blow up. Hell even MDs blew up just by having the Epyon fly past them iirc. UC and other eras have MS made of fucking tissue paper until they get plot armor.

In UC diving through the atmosphere is fucking suicide unless you have special equipment. In CE only the nuclear powered, high-end gundams can do it, like the Freedom and Justice. Even in AD they still use special landing equipment in S1. In AC the strongest Gundam, Wing Zero, nearly breaks up in the final episode when it hits the top of the atmosphere while trying to shoot down the Libra fragment.

Meanwhile in IBO Mikazuki drove a giant katana through the armor and cockpit of an ordinary graze and surfed it through re-entry and it was still mostly intact when Mika jumped off.
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>>20543449
in IBO standard reentry for mobile suits is just to surf a piece of metal down.
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>>20543415
In UC and most AU basically any major torso or cockpit hit detonates the reactor. In IBO Barbatos caves in Graze's chests left and right and we never ever see an Ahab reactor explode.
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>>20543449
That's the Epyon flying past them so fast you don't see the heat rod slicing them apart. Wing is also just fine after shooting Libra down even though it just finished fighting against Epyon.
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>>20543467
Wing Zero didn't even actually re-enter, it hit the upper atmosphere and immediately starts breaking up, they even show you the Wing Zero disintegrating. The Barbatos and the Graze were literally doing spin to win acrobatic katana battles in the same scenario without any issues.
>>
>>20543478
Reminder that Endless Waltz directly starts with them sending the Gundams to the sun directly after the final battle of Wing with no repairs whatsoever. Wing Zero "fights" Altron while in re-entry, sinks into the bottom of the sea then keeps itself stable enough for 3 shots of the TBR while getting pelted with gatling fire.
>>
>>20543465
Ahab reactors are like canonically brick shithouses to begin with. The series doesn't even touch the idea of what happens if one of those things popped, it's just taken for granted that they just won't.
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>>20543439
>ibo season 5
?
>>
>>20543487
Wing Zero EW has a heat shield via the wings that the regular one does not possess. Also we see in the intro of EW that Wing Zero takes almost identical damage to the tv version complete with half it's face getting ripped off that is later repaired, so they must have given it at least some repairs prior to launching at the sun.
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>>20543487
>after the final battle of Wing with no repairs whatsoever
No. They're literally sparking clean in the intro, moreover it's set a year after the show and they retrieve the gundams nearly as soon as they send them off. There's no indication it was right after the final battle. The show was set within the year AC195 and EW's events take place within a few days of Christmas AC196, it's at least around 1 year apart and it's pretty clear the Gundams had been repaired since then.

>Wing Zero "fights" Altron while in re-entry
No it doesn't. it only fights briefly at the top of the atmosphere and they're shown breaking off immediately. The next time we see them we see the Wing Zero completed re-entry using its re-entry shield and the Altron is using its Dragon Fangs as a re-entry shield
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>>20543487
Both the Wing Zero and Altron pretty clearly had to shield themselves
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>>20541356
Fuck Turn A it's overraed as shit and the mech designs are pure fucking garbage.
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>>20543554
Guess you're going to jail.
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Do Ahab beams have mass? It ether seems like they have very little, or nanolaminate is actually capable of redirecting momentum, which has incredible technological implications.
I mean compare Jerid's death in Zeta Gundam to the Shiden taking on Hashmal's beam.
Yeah, the Baund Doc no-saled the beam, but the resulting momentum sent it flying across the battlefield.
The Shiden acts like it's having a flashlight aimed at it.
>>20543149
Lasers don't have mass. You could conceivably have anti-laser technology exist within your setting without it really having implications for being effective against conventional and particle weaponry.
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>>20543592
People don't realize that mirrors are what we use to deal with lasers right now, in real life. There are mirrors on the moon that they shoot lasers at that have been there since the Apollo missions.
All of the particle beams in UC up to G-Reco tier technology works on nuclear fusion of Helium 3. They're literally firing the minovsky particle that is created during the He3 fusion process. It's the entire reason the Jovian colonies exist, to mine He3 from Jupiter.
G-Reco is when they start shitting out photon weaponry.
OO works closer to G-Reco's photon weaponry, and other boson type weapons in sci-fi, since GN particles are quantum state particles but never defined as fermions or bosons but some kind of new quantum particle the same way He3 doesn't fuse into carbon in UC.
Plus I don't understand why i-fields are considered weird. They're just dense minovsky particle fields with an electromagnetic charge. We already use electromagnetic fields in science experiments to deflect and redirect particles.
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>>20542643
PD definitely does not have weak beams. You can tell this because Hashmal blasts a trench in the rock a fucking mile long when it wakes up. Ride's ammo didn't cook off because NL armor scatters the beam as seen when Ride's Shiden gets hit. Also beam shots are kinetic, it's beam sabers that are superheated. No, they're not the same thing.
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>>20543390
>>20543415
Mobile suits exploding when shot at is just an animation cop-out. It has nothing to do with their durability.
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>>20543592
>Lasers don't have mass. You could conceivably have anti-laser technology exist within your setting without it really having implications for being effective against conventional and particle weaponry.
There's no such thing as a perfect mirror. They're not lasers for scientific use, they were lasers created to destroy warships and a coating made them totally useless
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>>20543682
Still not really an issue with internal logic, even if it's unrealistic.
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>>20543688
>>20543143
UC is the exact same. It just randomly ignores physics when convenient
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>>20543240
i was going to insult your taste in MS but i see you posted a Gun-EZ which means you are a man of refined taste. I will, however, point out that neither Walter Gundam nor Atlas Gundam are from CE. CE does have Duel Gundam and Legend Gundam, though, which are god-tier designs.
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Why chewing through dirt considered such a big feat? The Apsalus poked a hole through a mountain and that weapon scales pretty low for mobile armor weapons going by specs. I mean it has about one tenth the energy output of the original Psyco Gundam. They weren't working with a lot.
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>>20543700
Most sci-fi settings do. It's about consistency.
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>>20543520
>>20543523
Ah, my mistake then. I thought Glory of Losers changed that or something. Last time I saw EW was back in 2018.
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>>20543143
>this energy source reactor thing
That's not what makes IBO MS immune to beams, it's the nanolaminate armor. And it's no more bullshit than Phase Shift. Frankly it's a lot less bullshit than MS in Victory using beam-rotors to fly lie helicopters or F91's afterimages having mass. And it's nowhere near Domon Kasshu's legendary "I'LL BECOME TEN GUNDAMS TO COUNTER YOUR ATTACK" shenanigans.
SEE ALSO:
>axis shock
>Judau's mile long beam saber
>00 Raiser's mile long beam saber *and* quantizing
>WZC flapping its wings in space
>G-Self's shield beam
>every naked newtype moment ever
>Neo Zeong time traveling
>Igloo having an actual god of death
>Kira writing an OS in 45 seconds
>people claiming Wing has a coherent plot
>people claiming G-Reco has a coherent plot
>people liking Thunderbolt's "jazz"
The list goes on and on...
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>>20543682

Not totally useless, no, because the colony laser still overwhelmed it. Which is confirmed in dialogue to be a laser and not a beam with an ambiguous name or anything during 0079. Plus, in Stardust Memory, the Albion's anti-aircraft laser turrents shred some mobile suits so I would doubt how much anyone working on animation even cares about that fluff. If it exists.

I say "if it exists", because I've gone looking for sources on it a few times and never come up with any. I know the English Wikia talks about "semi-transparent coating", which it notes are in the Gundam Officials and novel appendix but I've just been going over the Japanese Wiki and some random Japanese search results looking for any mentions of it or any laser defenses and see nothing, and don't see anything in the novel translations about it either. The novel translations I have don't include a glossary though admittedly. Still, I would find it odd if the glossary did talk about a coating that was proof against laser weapons since the novels give Zaku's a laser torch built into the hand primarily meant for more mundane tasks, but which is presented as a threat to the Gundam at various points regardless.
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>>20543743
If just gonna deflect, you should probably decide on a strategy instead of just pointing in every which direction at once.
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>>20543750
I'm not deflecting, the NL Armor is deflecting (not the ahab reactor).
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>>20543743
>Nothing for AGE
finally, we've won
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>>20543714

On the other hand, it does more environmental damage than any other mobile unit mounted in UC. A century later in Victory, mobile suits with cannons that can shoot from orbit still aren't doing nearly as much damage. Hell, even untold centuries later in Turn A and G-Reco there's no weapon that can match it on any mobile units. The only mobile unit mounted weapons in the franchise that out-do it are colony laser scale weapons like the Buster Rifle and Satellite Cannon. It's rated low, but it's severely overpowered regardless.
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>>20543743
Besides Igloo's god of death, most those instances are consistent within the constraints of the setting they take place in. Specially newtype phenomena.
Also you're just listing random grievances near the end there.
Your comparison to phase shift is actually fair. But that brings up the point that phase shift didn't magically make the setting decide to abandon physical and ballistic weaponry.
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>>20543761
That's just a good argument why environmental damage towards mundane materials isn't really a good measure of power or intensity of a weapon.
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>>20543761
Why did this bother no one until IBO came along?
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>>20543767

I'd say it's most a good argument for why the Apsalus breaks the technology of the franchise over it's knee just as hard as anything in 0083 or Unicorn, despite Unicorn getting far more attention.

>>20543771

It's been bothering people since /m/ was created.
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>>20543759
I honestly couldn't think of anything to call bullshit on. Most people call bullshit on the Vagans deserving Kio's mercy but honestly I feel like that's the fault of the writers for devoting almost no screentime to not-completely-psychotic Vagans. It stands to reason that since they have a colony that isn't one big endless team deathmatch that most of the people are normal civilized folk but the show just throws so many murderous loonies at you that it's easy to assume they're all like that.
>>20543762
>phase shift didn't magically make the setting decide to abandon physical and ballistic weaponry.
That's probably because the whole story, Destiny included, happens within 4 years of the advent of Phase Shift. Considering that NLA is centuries old, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that unless someone figures out a way to nullify PS Armor then physical weapons will have been abandoned by CE 370.
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>>20543786

The biggest thing people call "bullshit!" on in regards to AGE is the Vagans being trapped on Mars when the show never provides a reason why they couldn't just leave at any point, given Second Moon is mobile. It's hardly alone though, since you also have Asemu's whole "Super Pilotoh" thing is advertised as just being someone so good at piloting it allows him to out do even people with parahuman powers, but appearing to be a super power of it's own given that people whose super power is reading the intent of others can't read him, Kio appearing to mindwash Flit in the finale etc. There's probably other stuff more directly related to the Gundams, but recalling more would require remembering more about the show and AGE is one of those entries that's mostly just forgettable.
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>>20543811
>when the show never provides a reason why they couldn't just leave at any point
It totally does, though. Ezelcant admits that he's not just performing his forced evolution attacks on other colonies, he's also arranging random "accidents" on his own people. It would make perfect sense for him to see keeping Second Moon in the proximity of the "mars rays" as one of those evolutionary events. As for the "super pilot" thing, that's pure video game logic. Asemu didn't have the right stats for the "x-rounder" character class so Woolf tells him to pick the "super pilot" class instead. You have to remember that AGE as an anime was tied very closely to AGE as a video game, which is also why you had those moments where a wave of enemies would just appear out of nowhere and with no explanation. Just think of the "super pilot" conversation like those moments in games where characters say things to each other like "To climb a ladder, stand in front of the ladder and press the [ACTION] button."
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>>20541565
>Gym killing the fat fuck with the fish lips
I can't believe the new EXVS game actually turned this into a move for Turn-X. Fatso literally has to die like once or twice again every match, and that blast radius is pretty good too so people actually use that move.

It's almost as humiliating as one of those PSP games where Ryu's suicide attach with the core fighter from the original show is a move for Guntank.
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>>20543828

Ah, yes. I forgot Ezelcant personally owned and operated Second Moon all on his own so clearly no-one else would think "hey guys, why don't we use this huge fortress that can move to move?".

Video game logic also doesn't actually excuse anything outside a video game. Which is why people slated Hino for using it throughout the production after one of the other staff explained that he thought it was fine to use video game logic to have enemies pop up in places they shouldn't be, with no explanation, as an example of how he operated.
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>>20541297
Visually maybe, but otherwise not at all. Mika was a mad dog that got brutally put down. Amuro was called the White Devil because he was a FUCKING MENACE and couldn't be stopped by anything Zeon threw at him. The nickname was for his lethality, not because he looked scary.
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>>20543853
Every single short animation or videogame where you're seeing Amuro from the Zeek point of view is straight up a horror sequence.
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>>20543776
To be fair, most of the times in UC the places we see massive weapons are in space or near the ocean. Apsalus is one of the few MAs that actually deploys and hits Earth environmental stuff.
Usually UC just rips up asteroids and colonies with big guns, and sometimes they blow up a quarter of Hong Kong and three quarters of Dakar.
I mean you can also make a case that a single mini-reactor in a Zaku II is more powerful than anything in IBO just because of the big boom.
You can also point at Hathaway now since we've got scenes where just the plasma being shed off from beam rifle shots was melting through buildings, streets, and infrastructure.
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>>20543857
Like that short animated sequence where Amuro is ambushed by a Zakus, then he just shows up out of nowhere and destroys them.
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>>20543846
>I forgot Ezelcant personally owned and operated Second Moon
Pretty much, yeah, they saw him as their savior. Everyone who talked about him did so with reverence and he was apparently in a position to name his own successor. There were also several instances of Vagans stating that it was the Earth Federation's fault they had to live in the Mars Rays, that they were not allowed to return to Earth because of fear of spreading Mars Sickness to the people of Earth. Whether they thought that Second Moon was unable to move and the Federation refused to rescue them or just thought that the Federation would destroy them if they tried leaving Mars orbit isn't clear. If Ezelcant wanted to keep Second Moon where it was in order to weed out the weak who succumbed to Mars Sickness, either of those excuses could have been used to explain to his people why they couldn't leave Mars.

All of which is beside the point, though, since that's not a case of "something physically impossible happened in this story" like nanolaminate or phase shift armor and is just a matter of the writers leaving out some potentially valuable world-building.
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>>20543761
There is literally nothing more destructive shown in any series than the Photon Torpedoes.
Those things fucking deleted matter at only 25% output. It is, by far, the most fucked up powerful weapon ever shown and we only see it at a partial state.
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>>20543879

> Usually UC just rips up asteroids and colonies with big guns

There are long periods on Earth in almost every Gundam entry that use the sane weapons, and frankly, most Gundam cannons don't even destroy significantly sized space debris.

> sometimes they blow up a quarter of Hong Kong and three quarters of Dakar.

The entire battles at Hong Kong and Dakar don't even cause a fraction of that kind of damage, nevermind one shot from any one mobile unit.

> I mean you can also make a case that a single mini-reactor in a Zaku II is more powerful than anything in IBO just because of the big boom.

That's kind of a silly argument, because a reactor isn't a weapon, and it'd be closer to a bomb than a gun even if it were a weapon. You might as well argue that a train is clearly a great weapon because it uses a steam engine and look at how much power we get from power plants run off steam.
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>>20543885

I can't believe Ezelcant bullshitted so hard the audience apparently bought it.

>>20543888

We're never told what percentage the photon torpedoes operated at; only that it was less than 100% and/or a low power. So even if you took them as operating at .1% power there are plenty of weapons in Gundam that cause more destruction than scaling the output up by a factor of 1000.

All of which is beside the point, because I meant to say "mobile unit mounted gun", not "mobile unit mounted" and photon torpedoes are not a gun. If we just take weapons of any kind, then the GP02's nuclear warhead, the Moonlight Butterfly, potentially the V2's Wings of Light and maybe others I'm forgetting outdo it too.
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>>20543888
>Photon Torpedoes
What episode was that? I don't remember that, but that's probably just because I never finished G-Reco.
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>>20543916
Should be the second to the last or the last episode. It's part of the G-Self P-Pack load out.
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>>20543894
Is it really any sillier of an argument than discounting Big Zam and other MAs annihilating dozens of ships and ripping through colonies and cites just because it doesn't carve up the ground, or saying that IBO has the strongest gun just because of that?
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>>20543749
>I say "if it exists", because I've gone looking for sources on it a few times and never come up with any
Then search harder
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamcentury.html
Pretty easy find
>The Federation Forces' mobile suits were also distinguished by their use of semi-monocoque construction, which had the drawback of a higher structural weight than the frameless monocoque used by the Zeon forces. However, both sides used composite armor made from a sandwich of metal foams, carbon ceramics, and boron composite materials, with a coating of critical semi-transparent materials applied to its surface (2). In this type of armor plating, the impact of enemy attacks was absorbed by the cracking of the metal foam's bubble sections, so an armor plate that had already taken one hit was unable to absorb successive impacts. Thus the Federation Forces' construction technique, which made it possible for the armor to be separated into multiple replaceable panels, was more combat-effective.
>(2) A similar semi-transparent coating is used within the Solar Ray system, so perhaps this has some protective function against lasers or laser sensors.

https://www.mechatalk.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=8359&p=152518&hilit=semi+transparent#p152518
>Beam-resistant coating: Is apparently a development of the critical semi-permeable coatings used to defend against laser weapons. (These coatings reflect laser beams below a certain energy level, and simply become transparent when the beam exceeds that level.) Although it can't survive a direct hit, beam-resistant coating is somewhat effective against long-distance beam fire that impacts at shallow angles. This coating was used on the Gelgoog's shield at the end of the One Year War.
>The Encyclopedia of Gundam: Gundam World U.C. Edition
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>>20543888
SEED uses positron (anti-matter) weapons, so you're just wrong. And the only reason we know the photon torpedos are anti-matter is because one of the designers said it on twitter and later added it to one of his design books.
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>>20543743
>F91's afterimages having mass.
F91 afterimages actually kind of make sense and saying "they have mass" is a bit of a misunderstanding on Carozzo's part. Basically the idea is that F91's outer armor layers are actually very thin laminates that get shed to discard waste heat under stress. Carozzo's confusion comes from the expectation that if you saw an "afterimage" appear briefly in the dark of space it would be the result of image afterburn on your eyes from a flash of light; in other words a strict photonic effect, but in the F91's case the afterimages are actually metallic artifacts that exist in physical space and disperse very quickly, and they can both be seen and also cause sensors to react to their presence because they aren't a trick of perception but rather a physical phenomenon.

Also I don't think the Ahab based beams and Minovsky based beams are significantly different in their mechanics to where nanolaminate would magically not work vs UC ones. I think the only beam where that would be called into question are GN based beams just because of how bullshit GN particles are in other ways but there was really no indication that Ahab beams are "weak beams" compared to megaparticles because >>20542643 doesn't mean much when the Hashmal beam, already dispersed, forks off into various subvectors and completely obliterates the farm behind that mobile suit that got shot.
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>>20543776
Fukui confirmed that the Unicorn turned back time and had basically ascended to an ultimate life form of some sort and could destroy space-time if used improperly, and could even go back in time to eliminate the source of conflicts. He also separately confirmed that newtype heaven is real, even though NT basically tells you it is despite /m/ collectively blocking their ears even though the entire story is about how Rita knew everything from the start and manufactured the events leading up to and including NT to take the Neo Zeong away from the mortal world.

The Apsalus melting a mountain with three dom reactors is bullshit but not nearly as bad as Unicorn, or most newtype bullshit for that matter.
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>>20543853
Mika was named the Devil because he was the only person in a long long time to actually defeat Gjallarhorn repeatedly something that had seemed impossible because they had the whole Earth Sphere by the balls since the CW That's how the whole show even starts because the CGS higher ups immediately gave up and tried to sneak out while their kid soldiers were meat shields upon finding out Gjallarhorn had sent out even one mobile suit against them. And he topped it off by killing a Cyborg grafted to his MS breaking all former Gjallarhorn taboos that they specifically created just to kill him.

This was well before he started getting the red eyed berserker demon look.
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>>20543888
okay, i finally found it. it's in episode 22 and each hit is destroying a small section like a hand, a forearm, or a shoulder pod. That is *nowhere* near the Twin Satellite Cannon.
>but ANTIMATTER
Yeah, so is the Tannhauser or Lohengrin. I'm not impressed. The funnel weapons on the Kshatriya disintigrate an MS just as quickly.
>but he was sure he didn't set them to 100%
Even if that was 10% and 100% would pop a whole MS there are tons of other MS weapons that can one-shot another MS, and plenty of weapons that can one-shot whole groups. The High Mega Beam Cannon on the ZZ, the Mega Bazooka Launcher, Virtue's GN Burst mode, the Twin Buster Rifle, AGE-FX, etc, etc, etc.
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>>20544006
Do you really take issue with people ignoring something that's that fucking stupid?
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>>20544006
>Fukui confirmed that the Unicorn turned back time
On-screen dialogue even confirmed that. What's worse is that it turned back time only for specific objects, literally returning the engines on the affected ships to their previous unassembled state. That makes absolutely no sense no matter how many mental gymnastics you try to do to get around it. At that point it's just straight-up magic.
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>>20543743
Its centering on a colonial conflict where one side had the ability to make infinite energy out of reactors that had no requirements to run indefinitely. They also had the ability to automate recycling.
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>>20544167
>one side had the ability to make infinite energy out of reactors that had no requirements to run indefinitely
Didn't everybody have AHAB reactors? I know in the setting it was supposed to be monopolized by Gjallarhorn but when you watch the show everyone from backwater mercenary units to space yakuza to human traffickers had mobile suits. Not to mention every space ship in the setting, which were apparently normal (if expensive) for anyone to buy. CGS literally had a Gundam just sitting in their basement powering their headquarters. Mining operations accidentally dug up ancient mobile suits with operational reactors, scavengers would find them in space, and so on. Gjallarhorn may have had a monopoly on *new* reactors but in practice that was just an explanation for why everyone else's reactors were Disaster War surplus.
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>>20544167
>>20544199

Everyone had Ahab Reactors, just that Gjallarhorn had the ability to make new ones while everyone else had to salvage theirs from the Calamity War. And it also had Gjallarhorn be ridiculously overpowered as a result to the point where any conflict with them was laughable until Gundam's briefly became a thing again and even then that wasn't really enough to take them down as we saw.

The colonial conflict was basically a joke as they had no chance against them and it was mostly a combination of Mcgillis's scheming and Tekkadan's ferocity causing them lots of trouble and killing off half the Seven Stars, plus Rustal deciding that oppressing the colonies was more trouble that it was worth after he became the undisputed overlord of Earth that the colonies were "liberated" at all.
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>>20543592
>Lasers don't have mass.

Explain how a light sail works then
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>>20543947
DIRT STRONGEST MATTER THERE IS
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>>20544363
They are called solar sails and It's propulsion resulting from electromagnetic radiation.
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>>20543390
Wasn’t the Flauros totaled, with just its torso remaining?
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>>20544476
Flauros was intact enough that a few of them thought Shino could potentially be saved if they tried to retrieve it so
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>>20544704
agreed
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>>20544432
What would be stronger? Gundam made from dirt, which is the strongest matter on earth or one made from diamonds, the stronges metal in galaxy?
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>>20544934
a Gundam made of babymetal would be the hardest (and the cutest)
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>>20543996
More than anything else, I say that the exact nature of ahab beams and nanolaminate paint is far too vague to come to a definite conclusion when comparing them against UC. My gut says UC beams are hotter, but at the end of the day it's Sunrise who has the final say.
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>>20543133
>>20543155
>>20543169
>devil
>when the pilot is well-known for sparing enemy pilots and only disabling their MS
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>>20544704
It's really sad. The setting and mobile suits are amazing but it's given to a staff that clearly didn't care much about it.
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>>20545065
That's most Gundam shows.
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>>20545079
The only Gundam show that squandored it's setting and designs as hard as IBO was maybe Seed. MAYBE.
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>>20545116
Okay Duel.
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>>20543947

Two bad arguments don't cancel each other out, anon. Just because two things are wrong doesn't mean both are really right. That aside, the Big Zam never does any environmental damage to my knowledge and only ever hits ships and suits with it's main cannons. Both of which can be destroyed in roughly the same fashion by other mobile suit held weapon by ZZ at the latest, thanks to it's high mega cannon. Which could cause some damage to the surface of a Moon city, and that's kind of it. Nor was I arguing that the Hashmal's beam weapon is the strongest, personally. I'm not sure anyone was, but I certainly wasn't. Only that it's use there shows that PD's beams aren't weak; the frequent claim of people who want to dismiss nanolaminate as a factor when comparing settings in some fashion.

>>20543957

The first of those doesn't say anything conclusive about the use of semi-transparent/permeable membranes in armor; only that it was used in the Colony Laser, and may have "some protective function against lasers or laser sensors". Which doesn't really mean anything on it's own. The show and the novel themselves say about as much just by mentioning the semi-permeable membrane when talking about the Colony Laser.

The second source is more definitive (and not one I found before; so thank you for that regardless) at least mentions there is some definite protective quality to it, but also mentions that it's only useful to a point and does nothing after that. Which isn't saying that it makes units using it proof against laser weapons full stop.
>>
Actually, I'm not sure how much stock should be put in that book despite Mark's assertions it's probably going to stick due to Sunrise giving it the nod, because it dates the first use of mobile suits to September and there are other sources with Sunrise approval (like UC Hardgraph) putting it as July, it says beam screens only cut beam range in half, when animation has them die almost immediately upon entering such a particle cloud, it says Neo Zeon didn't start using that name until July of UC0088 when launching the Earth invasdion, and characters refer to Neo Zeon before that in dialogue etc.

>>20544006

Unicorn's use of technology also has to be considered within it's context i.e. the use of psycoframe already established in Char's Counterattack to reverse the laws of physics and push a huge asteroid out of Earth's orbit. Relative to that, even time travel isn't actually particularly outstanding. No more so than the Apsalus' cannon, at least; especially when the dialogue confirming time travel isn't even in Unicorn itself, and is in NT not Unicorn. In Unicorn it just looks like a vision. Which is what it's supposed to be at the time, according to interviews released after Unicorn. It's only later that it becomes time travel.

>>20544951

I'm really hoping that some future Macross project uses Kawaii Metal as it's main musical theme, given that while Babymetal aren't as big in Japan as a lot of J-Pop groups, they've hit bigger in lots of foreign markets than any of those groups. Including other Macross groups. Which seems a significant consideration now that Kawamori can simul-release Macross projects following the Robotech deal, and wants to do so in future.
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>>20545178
>Unicorn's use of technology also has to be considered within it's context i.e. the use of psycoframe already established in Char's Counterattack to reverse the laws of physics and push a huge asteroid out of Earth's orbit. Relative to that, even time travel isn't actually particularly outstanding.

For what it's worth, there's also the fact that once you start dabbling in potential sources of infinite energy output like what psycoframe can unleash, physics kinda just shits itself period. And it's not like theoretical physics permits some weird shit as is, there's conditions where reverse time is permissible if I remember right.

Don't forget that over in 00 where a properly built GN drive is an inexhaustible source of energy, physics was bent over backwards to achieve some pretty impressive feats here and there. Moral of the story is you should be very careful around voodoo technology like that. Ahab reactors for all we know could summon space whales.
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>>20545193

Yeah, while nanolaminate gets all the focus in PD as a source of discussion I find the fact that the Ahab reactors are listed in some places as outright indestructible more curious really.
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>>20545096
>squandered it's setting an designs
>SEED
Nah. Well maybe the Superior Evolutionary Element Destined thing which is literally only mentioned one time out of 100 episodes of CE. All things considered I'd say SEED was a good show, it's just that hating Kira is a meme. There was definitely some inexplicable stupidity that happened between the end of SEED and the start of Destiny because Orb suddenly wants to join the federation that invaded them for resources just a couple of years ago, but once you get over that culture shock the story progresses just fine. The cut-and-paste UC mobile suits replacing the distinct CE era suits was a lame choice but probably moved more plastic and that's the whole point of the shows to begin with. Most of the bitching about Destiny comes from people just being contrarian about glaringly obvious plot points like Durandal's plan being bad or fanfiction about Lacus's true motives. That and the ridiculous argument that Kira actually dies and comes back rather than the showrunners just baiting the audience with cliffhangers. Oh, and the people who seem to believe Kira is a real person who wouldn't accept being replaced and stole the show back from Shinn. Those are the silliest haters, honestly.
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>>20545201
I'm pretty sure some sources claimed the same of swords that we saw destroyed in the show, so that might be less literal than it seems.
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>>20541297
Amuro would dunk on Barbie all day and into next week.
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>>20543704
every design you mentioned is fucking terrible
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>>20546159
Most of IBO seems to fall into the category of "don't think about it" because they just want melee fights for the most part.
The fact that their big WMD weapon are railguns that fire spikes while looking like crossbows should probably tell you that IBO is more about looking however the director felt was cool.
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>>20546236
Dainsleifs are kinetic energy weapons and arguably the only things in the show that both look cool AND make sense
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>>20546159

I know I've seen people claim that before, but I don't know that I've ever seen an actual source for that and they're certainly not listed that way on the English Wikia or Japanese Wiki, and there's no weapon info for Bael on the official site so far as I can see.

>>20546236

Gundam and mecha in general fall into the "rule of cool" anon. Mobile suits have human firms because cool, melee weapons decide almost every important fight because cool, they use giant guns with giant scopes fitted to them in the style of anachronistic era because cool etc.

>>20546240

Kinetic weapons do, the way they're used in show doesn't. Specifically the finale, where ranks of shots are fired from orbit and hit targets who just stand stock still for the 10+ seconds it's likely to take for the shots to traverse the intervening distance with absolutely no effort made on the part of Gjallarhorn to arrest their movements. They just stand still because that's what the plot calls for. And they the shots don't actually kill them despite being huge metal rods that have falling from orbit, even when several hit.
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>>20546240
Contextually, they don't really make sense. They're giant harpoon guns because MAs are basically a bunch of robot moby dicks and Gundams are the whaling boats.
Making sense as a kinetic weapon is an accident, but their actual designs don't make sense. It's like how Atlas' railgun makes sense, but the design is all fucked up - and I'm not talking about the tri-rails; I'm talking about the lack of a real energy source in the gun itself which is usually excused away due to hand plugs drawing energy from the reactor.
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>>20544199
>Didn't everybody have AHAB reactors?
In effect they didn't seem to have problems scrounging infinite energy machines.

Gjallarhorn was making them for 300 years, which should be enough to power everything as they never stopped working and they didn't have that many mobile suits.

The two big exports that were causing problems were more trouble than they were worth.
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>>20546269
Devil's advocate, the rule of cool has only gotten worse over time. 08th MS team is a prime example of when it went too far in the UC timeline. 0083s rule of cool usually just flouted military security and shit while disregarding technological development timeline, but you didn't have mobile suits breaking the established pitfalls of minovsky particles or doing shit like Shiro dodging hyper rifle bullets near point blank and not being affected at all by giant fuck off rounds traveling at supersonic speed or even the massive gas explosions the hyper rifles generate each shot.
IBO just feels like it falls into the 08th MS Team and Gundam Seed camp where things get written to justify scenes rather than the other way around.
At least IBO will never have something as bad as nuclear reactor shut down saving Kira, or the utterly retarded N-Jammer cancellers that should fuck up the Earth completely rather than just shutting down nuclear fission reactions.
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>>20546269
I'm not sure the Gundams have sensors with long enough ranges to give them time to react to railguns

wait did someone warn them they were gonna be attacked from orbit?
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>>20546269
the way they're used in the show makes sense to me
a long enough and large enough rod dropped from orbit would have a big enough killzone that I can't imagine a mobile suit would be able to get away in just ten seconds
>the shots don't actually kill them despite being huge metal rods that have falling from orbit, even when several hit.
that was retarded you're right
>>20546270
if they used them as kinetic energy weapons the war would've ended too early lmao
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>>20546292

The fact they had no warning isn't the point; it's that the Gundam's just stood still for no reason beyond the fact it's what was needed for the plot to wrap up after Gjallarhorn made no effort to guarantee they'd be in one place long enough to be hit beyond backing off. It's just sloppy writing, relying on plot convenience. What would Gjallarhorn have done if either of them chased them? Or just left?

>>20546294

The distance the Gjallarhorn suits retreat doesn't even seem like it'd take 10 seconds to cover, and I'm pretty sure even the critically damaged Barbatos covers it in less afterwards.
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>>20546327
I'm not disagreeing that they were ridiculously weak for kinetic energy weapons in orbit
Rustal hitting them with multiple Dainsleifs should have been the end of the series
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>>20546327
>Gundam's just stood
what should they of done then? they weren't really trying to win the fight just waste enough time fore everyone to escape
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>>20546292
>wait did someone warn them they were gonna be attacked from orbit?
No, they actually just stopped mid-battle and looked up because a major plot point was about to happen. No, I'm not being sarcastic, they actually did that. It wasn't even a newtype moment, it was a "let the audience now that something's going to happen overhead" right before the camera cut to the MS in orbit preparing to fire. And when it cut back to Mika and Akihiro on the ground they were still just standing there looking up.
>>20546342
>what should they of done then
DOOOOOOOOODGE!
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>>20546327
I dunno man, at this point it sounds like you're complaining they didn't move out of the way of a railgun strike even though they didn't know it was incoming. What are they supposed to do, scatter and move at top speed every time enemies retreated and there's a lull in the fighting?

>What would Gjallarhorn have done if either of them chased them? Or just left?
They were covering their comrades' escape plans. Leaving the area is sort of the last thing they wanted to do. If they knew the railgun strike was coming, they would have left since the ensuing damage probably would have covered up the escape anyway, explosives or not.
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>>20546376
>DOOOOOOOOODGE!
nigga you saw how big it was

by the time they knew it was too late
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>>20546379
>I dunno man, at this point it sounds like you're complaining they didn't move out of the way of a railgun strike even though they didn't know it was incoming

Really? Cause I'm pretty sure I'm complaining that they stopped long enough for anyone to even aim at them from orbit in the first place.
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>>20546406
It's an indiscriminate strike on the area they were defending. They don't even need to stand still to be targeted for area bombardment.
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>>20546452

That's quite possibly worse, if it's true, given that only a dozen or so units fire and yet each of the two units not only happens to conveniently stand perfectly still so they can get hit, but both of them get hit by the dozen or so "indiscriminate" shots fired.
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>All the cope in this thread.
It is delicious. Truly so.
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>>20546488
I can't believe IBO Gundams get easily wrecked by big needles
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>>20545116
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>>20546478
The crater from the dainsleif strike was easily a couple hundred metres wide and wiped out half of Tekkadan's base. You make it sound like as if they moved a little they still wouldn't have been fucked by the collateral damage.
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>>20546518

I wasn't trying to, but it's true regardless. Or are you forgetting that even with both units being hit by dainsliefs that both were able to continue fighting again afterwards. If they hadn't hit then there is nothing to indicate they'd have been taken out of action by environmental damage.
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>>20546527
Then what does it matter if they were standing still or walking around or not? Why complain that they weren't trying to dodge something they didn't know was coming?
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>>20546537

What? If they hadn't been hit then they wouldn't have suffered even close to catastrophic damage; how is that not a notable change to be worth pointing out only happens because they stood stock still solely due to plot convenience?
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>>20546543
Because you're asking them to react to something they didn't notice was coming until the last second. You might as well be asking "why not just dodge the shot every time they see someone aim a gun".
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>>20546574

No, I'm not asking them to dodge at all; I'm asking why the shots could hit them at all. I don't buy that it's indiscriminate, by the way. We get a very specific shot of the Graze's targeting scope eye focusing for a few seconds before the 6 units we see fire, and all the shots appear to hit within a small area around Mika.
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>>20546500
>>20546527
>>20546543
These posts bringing in cope dividends; >>20546488
Its called being "caught off guard", anon. Its called hindsight, the element of surprise, the advantage that proactively planning an attack gives over reacting in defense.
Yeah, Mika and Akihiro "could've" considered the possibility that the Gjallarhorn units retreated to prep for the Dainsleif attack, but they didn't.
This is literally the same trash-tier argument made by those who say Shinn's victory against Kira somehow doesn't count because Kira didn't use his railguns/wing cannons
>but... but... but... he could've done this, since he didn't imma call the battle invalid due to bad writing rather than pin it on the pilot failure, e.g. a mistake, which humans make
Its easy to sit on your fat ass and complain about "what if" tangent alternatives after the fact considering we're the viewer and have a greater understanding of the total context of the situation the characters are in. Acting on all those possibilities, even considering them, in real time, in the heat of the moment, is a whole different animal in its entirety and you're an idiot appealing to false dichotomy for trying to equate them.
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>>20546584

I'm not complaining about the result (Gjallarhorn winning) at all anon. I'm complaining that the direction of the fight to get to that end was lazy.
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>>20546591
Your backpeddling says otherwise, but have some (You)s.
>>20546327
>>20546376
>>20546478
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>>20546488
was he supposed to be hot?
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>>20541297
I think it's pretty stupid and doesn't really represent what a gundam is
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>>20546806
what is a gundam
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>>20546613
If you're attracted to old men who will probably rape you.
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They didn't dodge because for all Mika's speech about living both of them had clearly given up on life and wanted to die there, Mika because Orga died, and Akihiro because Lafter, his brother and his adopted brother had.
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>>20546807
Just a name.
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>>20547154
so then what's the issue
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>>20542531
>Monikers never ever refer to the suit.
It does in case of the White Devil.
Amuro's personal moniker is the White Meteor juxtaposing Char's moniker of Red Comet.
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>>20547803
>Amuro's personal moniker is the White Meteor juxtaposing Char's moniker of Red Comet.
Never heard of "White Meteor", where is that from?. He's been given the "Unicorn" codename in some Zeta side material and he had a Unicorn emblem associated with his Nu Gundam, I think.

>>20542531
>Monikers never ever refer to the suit.
Even when enemies knew they were fighting Amuro in Zeta and CCA, no one still called him the "White Devil", especially even when he was piloting the partly-white Nu Gundam. On the other hand, in the first episode of Zeta, when those GM II pilots saw the red Rick Dias, they thought it might be the "Red Comet".
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>>20547818

Did any enemies in Zeta or Char's Counterattack know they were fighting Amuro, beyond Char himself? The Rick Dias might have been the Red Comet because it's obviously a custom color scheme of the unit that is otherwise black. The Nu Gundam is singular, so harder to peg; especially when the Mk II, Zeta and ZZ are different units with different color schemes and pilots used by different factions entirely.
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>>20543743
>Kira writing an OS in 45 seconds
He didn't write a complete OS in 45 seconds though.
He just scrapped off the top layer meant to make the thing more easily usable by Naturals; hotwired a few parts in place and put everything else in full manual because he could do a better job at driving the systems manually than the fucking excuse of an AI-assist pilot could at that point.

The thing that pushes it beyond the suspension of disbelief isn't so much the hotwiring job. It's how quick he could intuit how the existing lower-level systems actually worked in under a minute.
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>>20547828
Most of the enemies in CCA knew, Gyunei sure did. Gyunei targeted the Re-GZ because Amuro had made a mockery of him earlier, but when it turned out Keyra was the pilot, Gyunei held her hostage just to try to trap Amuro. In Zeta it's less clear, at least the Titans' leadership was probably aware that Amuro had escaped house arrest and joined up with the AEUG, so maybe individual pilots weren't as aware. In either case, the "White Devil" name never really comes up outside of OYW content.
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>>20547834
>The thing that pushes it beyond the suspension of disbelief isn't so much the hotwiring job. It's how quick he could intuit how the existing lower-level systems actually worked in under a minute.
IIRC it's because he had already been working on maybe part of it as an assignment from his professor at school. He wasn't aware of the entire thing or what it would be used for, but it's worth noting that in the lab where Kira and friends worked, they were apparently dealing with mechatronics, Morganroete was mentioned by name, and Cagalli originally went to their lab to see their professor because she was secretly trying to investigate Orb's connection with manufacturing MS for the EA.

In any case, it's not outwardly stated, but seems sort of likely that Kira had at least somewhat more than basic understanding of the systems because he's been helping with part of it on assignment from his professor.
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>>20542606
>>20547803
>>20547827
Except it does in fact refer to the pilot of the Gundam, and not simply the Gundam itself

Here we see Gato in Dynast Warriors Gundam 3 call Amuro, in the Nu Gundam, the White Devil.
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>>20547896
>here is my source Dynasty Warriors Gundam 3
So this is the level we are at in this discussion
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>>20547896
>B-BUT IN DYNASTY WARRIORS
this is like that time some guy brought up stats in SD Gundam to try and prove that "barbatos is teh fastest gumgum evar"
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>>20547896
>in fact
>in a crossover video game
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>>20547880
Thanks for that bit of background, anon.
Somehow can't escape the feeling that it's totally in character for the CE's EFF to fucking outsource labor to educational institutions to have it done on the cheap.
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>>20547904
Or that time someone brought up a cutscene from the Encounters in Space PS2 game to "prove" that Amuro was a worse pilot than Gato.
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>>20548073
Hell, we even do it today, DARPA actively funds, researches, and recruits from universities. I mean of course they push it as a way of contributing to sciences and higher learning, and not all of it is directly combat-related, but still.
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>>20548078
My favorite are the guys who post screenshots from Super Robot Wars to "prove" that Kira is a bad person and that Shinn was right. Either that or those discussions where absolutely EVERYTHING that the Turn A is stated to be able to do in any kind of fluff, no matter how obscure, absolutely counts toward its power being maximum but the Turn X manual stating that all Gundam is within a single timeline totally doesn't count at all.
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>>20548073
The funny part is, if the theory proposed by >>20547880 is true, its not the EA you'd look at so much as Orb. Heliopolis was an Orb colony, the University they're at, an Orb one, with a professor likely financed through Orb Union grants. Just remember, when the Archangel limps into Orb Territory in the middle of the series, what is the payment Orb asks for, in exchange for repairing the ship and covering everyone up.
>Kira is to co-operate with us and help us develop our natural-use OS for our MS program.
Even though Orb is a nation of naturals and coordinators, Erica Simmons their Chief Engineer being a coordinator, they want Kira, by name.
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>>20546488

I fucking love Rustal so much.

>protags cheat to win for 40+ episodes
>you cheat back
>YOUCAN'TDOTHATYOUCAN'TDOTHAT

The meltdown when those episodes aired was beyond beautiful.
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>>20548268
If you identify with Rustal more than the protags you seriously need to check your privilege.
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>>20548268
If you love Rustal then you clearly hate the genre to begin with so why even bother watching if you don't want to see hot shonen in robots kick ass. You want to see some rich asshole step on everyone by throwing money at it just turn on the actual news.

IBO's mobile suits were too good to be obsoleted by fucking railguns.
>>
I feel like if I watch this show I'll be disappointed by it not being as good nor bad as a particular group says
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>>20548362
As someone who is not an extremist in either camp, I'd recommend watching it. It has some cliche issues like "a character who's never mentioned having a brother suddenly remembering he has a brother five minutes before they randomly run across his long-lost brother" and some questionably QUALITY animation scattered throughout the show but also a unique overall approach to a Gundam story and some very high-octane battles. The main character is the most predictable idiot ever (and actually legitimately retarded, not as an insult but seriously with a learning disability), but he's also the living embodiment of violence. The spoiled rich girl trying to be a social justice warrior is as naive and cliche as she can be, but the show also blatantly mocks dozens of mecha cliches like squads posing while announcing their identities before a battle or the old "won't someone please think of the children?" thing. The cast are a group of teenagers rebelling against an adult world in standard Gundam fashion but for the first time are actually grizzled combat veterans due to the child soldier angle. Their combat tactics are excellent and IBO is one of few /m/ shows to actually employ unit tactics other than "send out four or five Gundams" but their decisions regarding long-term goals are laughably retarded.

It's not the best Gundam show, but it's far from the worst and is a very unique story for its franchise.
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>>20548394
Every AU barring SEED and Wing are unique though
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>>20548409
>AU
That stopped being a thing 22 years ago, anon.
Unless you mean Build Fighters or SD.
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>>20548394
I'd put on the low side of mid tier with Wing and SEED. It isn't great but it isn't a true stinker like AGE or Destiny.
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>>20548473
AGE and SEED were god, Destiny is mid-tier, Wing was awful. I'd put IBO above Destiny, though. Not as good as 00 or Victory, let alone classics like MSG, Zeta, and ZZ, but all around a pretty good show.
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>>20546240
>Literally given the added benefit of orbital bombardment
>Still don't seem as ridiculous as real world high yield nukes.
I don't get it
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>>20547844
Yeah White Devil was what Zeon called him, the Feddies called him the White Meteor
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>>20543554
>overrated
Meaningless buzzword

>mech designs are pure fucking garbage.
Why?
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>>20548357
>check your privilege.
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>>20548360
>If you love Rustal then you clearly hate the genre
>Gundam
>Where the original timeline focuses a lot on the morally grey EFSF stomping the Zeon underdogs.
Take your meds.

>IBO's mobile suits were too good to be obsoleted by fucking railguns.
Sometimes a simpler solution like Dainsleifs is superior and more efficient than Death Star-tier wannabe superweapons like Colony Lasers, Colony Drops, GENESIS-type weapons, etc.
Say what you will about IBO S2's ending, it serves as a mirror to "flawless victory" of SEED Destiny, the worst entry in the series, and for that reason, I like it.
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>>20548990
Cope.
SEED and SEED Destiny are the best.
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>>20541353
>Can casually flip Mobile Armors far larger than itself
>Can teleport nukes into cockpits
>Has a miniature black hole for a power source
>Can reconstruct itself from the most devastating blows (if they can even damage it)
>Has a "SENT CIVILIZATION BACK TO THE STONE AGE" weapon in the form of the Moonlight Butterfly
And that's just a few of them. If the Turn-A appeared in any other non-UC Gundam setting, then it would wipe the floor with everyone and everything. Maybe only ELS 00 Quant would stand up to it and even then the question wouldn't be "Can it defeat the Turn-A?" and more like "How long will it last against the Turn-A?". I ain't including the Devil Gundam because at this point it's not evolved enough to even scratch the Turn-A before it Moonlight Butterfly's it into oblivion.
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>>20548990
I hate you and everything you stand for
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>>20548990
You know the appropriate solution to a bad thing isn't often the deliberate polar opposite.
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>>20548990
>Gundam
>Where the original timeline focuses a lot on the morally grey EFSF stomping the Zeon underdogs.

Aside from the "Moral greyness" being a thing fans like to hype as better than it is when most shows have the EF as basically the undisputed good guys vs Zeon's atrocity of the year at least UC has a back and forth that allows for lots of stories that's still going on to this day and didn't end with one organization and one guy having the entire setting by the balls forever and ever with an instant win button the second someone ever gets uppity.

Post Disaster setting is finished as Rustal and later Julietta will have the entire setting on lockdown and dainsleif anyone that looks at them funny. Which is why all they do now is have stuff set before season 2's ending with this mobile game they've been struggling to get out because most of the interest in the setting dried up after it ended.
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>>20541580
>that wasn't anyone's first choice?
Because it's not white, dummy.
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>>20548394
>Their combat tactics are excellent
You had a decent review until this point.
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>>20549553
Not him and I wouldn't call their tactics "excellent" but at least in season 1 they HAVE them and it's not just sending out the protagonist in his Gundam to solo everyone while they hang back on the ship and pray for his success. At least twice in the first season sending out Barbatos is just a distraction while Orga's real plan is to sneak commandos onto the enemy ship to take it over. Granted alot of that is probably because Tekkadan only had 3 mobile suits tops in season 1. Come season 2 where they have a full army and it's mostly just throw MS hordes at the problem and wait. Though they had a pretty good plan to stop Hashmal that Iok ruined and led to having to just let Barbatos solo it in the end.
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>>20549289
>Can reconstruct itself from the most devastating blows (if they can even damage it)
Really, nigga? It got its head dented by a fucking Zaku punch and took like ten episodes to heal it. Devil Gundam regenerated whole armor plates from nothing in seconds.
>Can teleport nukes
Which one of the two contradictory non-canon non-Tomino novelizations is that in?
>not evolved enough to even scratch the Turn-A
Again, Zaku punch
>before it Moonlight Butterfly's it into oblivion
You do realize that Tomino's setting notes specify that the MLB is made from DG Cells, right? What makes you think Devil wouldn't just assimilate the Turn A, nanomachines and all?
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>>20549703
But can it assimilate them faster than they are deconstructing it?
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>>20549706
Considering that Turn A's nanomachines took ten episodes to heal a bent moustache and Colony Devil took a couple of minutes to grow a network of tentacles that reached down from low earth orbit to cover the whole planet while simultaneously getting attacked by literally every Gundam in the series...
Yeah I don't think Devil really needs to worry about the MLB.
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>>20549289
>>Can teleport nukes into cockpits
It was actually "teleport beam into cockpits" but it's not actually true. It's probably made up because no one has been able to find a source for this claim. The closest is the White/Source Cocoon from G Generation but it doesn't teleport anything into cockpits, just around mobile suits, and it's not actually the Turn A, it's a game exclusive boss that's wrapped around the Turn A. The Turn A that comes out of the cocoon doesn't even have the same abilities, although the body can teleport.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rta-2Me9jBY

By the way, the ELS Qant in a more recent G Gen game has similar feats to both the cocoon and the black history Turn A if you're going to take G Generation seriously.
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>>20549703

> It got it's head dented by a fucking Zaku punch

No, it didn't. It got it's head dented by a punch from Harry's custom SUMO, not a Zaku. The only thing that happens with the Zaku is that they grapple each other for a few seconds, while Loran remarks that the Turn A is reacting slowly, which is probably because the head has already been damaged by the SUMO and is still mid-repair at the time, then Loran notices that Bruno and Jacop are stealing a van with food and the "fight" ends.

The idea that it was the Zaku that punched it has been floating around on /m/ for years, and I am pretty sure it was just cause of one guy who wanted to try and minimize the Turn A as much as possible to counteract all the misinformation about it's apparent strength.

>>20549710

> Considering that the Turn A's nomachines took ten episodes to heal a bent moustache

The head was dented in on one side from the punch, not just a bent moustache. There's basically a big semi-sphere caved in on one side that crumples the moustache on that side, and even the top knot on the rear of the head is misaligned. It's all repaired in about four episodes too, not ten. I say about, because the damage occurs at the end of episode 14, there's a lot of nanomachines around the head at the start of 19, and then you can see that everything is fine at the end of 19. With episode 16 being a recap episode, so not really counting. So 15, 17, 18 and some of 19. Which all seem to occur over the space of a few days.
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>>20549392
Pretty much. The problem isn't that Tekkadan lost and Rustal won, the problem is that the whole climax the show had been building to ended on a dissapointing wet fart where nobody did anything remotely cool or interesting and it ended with the protagonist getting hit by an artillery strike and then swarmed with grunts until he died of blood loss. While Mcgillis's whole plan ended up being a whole lot of nothing. Every likes to go "But that's what's SO GREAT you expect it to be a typical Gundam flashy thing and it isn't" but a subversion isn't a good subversion if it ends up being worse that what the audience expected. That just makes the whole thing disapointing and make you regret having wasted your time.

Like everyone points out that Shino's missing his shot and dying is great because in most other shows the protags always make the million to one shot and win and they're tired of stuff like that. Which has some truth to it, but because he missed that shot and died 5 episodes before the end it means the Flarous was around for 7 episodes total and all it did was shoot at some rocks before failing horrifically and getting destroyed. Which is just a waste of a good mobile suit. Barbatos's final battle was lame but at least it had other cool moments during the show.

It's a show about robots fighting. If that's not happening they're not doing their job.
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>>20543981
Yeah, but Fukuda didn't know what positron weapons would actually do and just said they were part of the setting because they sounded cool. It's the same reason CE railguns are just yellow beam cannons.
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>>20549780
>Sumo not Zaku
Okay
>four episodes not ten
>>20549780
My point still stands. Four episodes to repair a dent and a bent moustache vs several large whole plates of armor appearing instantaneously one after another, and a planetary network of tentacles growing in only a few minutes. The on-screen feats of Devil's nanotech hilariously outclass the on-screen feats of Turn A's nanotech. That, combined with setting info that the MLB nanos are "perfected" DG Cells leads me to believe that the Turn A would be useless at best, and at worst would get instantly assimilated since it's already made of Devil Gundam Cells.
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>>20546488
Rustal isn't even that much smarter than the other characters, he just had the luck of Gaelio allying with him (mostly out of his Mcgillis hateboner as he didn't really seem very keen on making Rustal overlord like Julietta was) and more shit to throw around because he was a Seven Star heir that was given a fleet and Dainslaif supply. Alot of his moves were fairly dumb. Chief among them his choice of supporters. Galan Mossa, who for all his bragging he could keep Mcgillis in a stalemate for years lost pretty badly once Mcgillis personally took to the field, and Iok. The guy he decides to ally with and entrust alot of his work to, is Iok the stupidest character in the show who does nothing but make things worse for everyone and get his own men killed.

The mobile armor incident is the biggest one. That's the thing that Gjallarhorn which Rustal is adamant MUST always be on top is supposed to be around to prevent in the first place and while Mcgillis (who actually studied Gjallarhorn's history) took extensive preperations and was in place to safely dispose of the thing Rustal entrusts the job to Iok who stupidly activates the thing then attacks it thinking it's outdated and an easy mark and after getting his squad killed, decides to attack again and ruins Mcgillis and Tekkadan's attempt to stop the thing without serious casualties.

If another Mobile Armor ever is found and accidentally activated again, which is totally possible because there were hundreds of them and they can't easily be destroyed as Hashmal shows, then they are fucked beyond belief with Rustal in charge because he certainly doesn't know how to the handle the things, and Dainsleif's won't do much good without Gundam's to help pin them down (you know like in the actual war that nobody in present day Gjallarhorn seems to care about anymore). Oh right, Rustal locked up all the Gundam's and made it so nobody could every potentially use them again to cover his own ass.
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>>20549780
>The idea that it was the Zaku that punched it has been floating around on /m/ for years, and I am pretty sure it was just cause of one guy who wanted to try and minimize the Turn A as much as possible to counteract all the misinformation about it's apparent strength.
I joined in on that because I thought it was funny, some Turnfags used to be really sensitive and would post threads like "GM vs Turn A who would win"
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>>20549956
depends on who's piloting the GM
>>
One of these days I need to look through all the Japanese Turn A data I can find and source, so we can figure out just what the fuck it's canonically capable of.
You always hear about it teleporting beams into cockpits and healing itself from any damage, but from the manuals and magazines and the like that I've found, its features are much more restrained than that.
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>>20549979
Aside from the MLB and a fairly high-power beam saber, it has no built-in weapons. The chest cavity is hollow to store modular weapons which it's supposed to be able to teleport into itself from those underground storage facilities (like the one where Loran found that disintigrating rifle). It is stated in the show, by Gym, that the Turn A itself can teleport but it's entirely possible it just turned invisible and he made an assumption. You have to remember that he also referred to the Turn X's claw as "the shining finger" which anyone who watched G Gundam knows isn't what the Turn X did. It also has self-repair nanomachines which it demonstrates in the show, though there is debate over how slowly they operate is due to the Turn A being in a low-power state at the time. Its beam rifle is fairly high-powered, but the comparison to a colony laser comes from one of the novels not the anime. It being able to preserve/resurrect its pilot is also from one of the novels and is extrapolated from Devil Gundam doing that on-screen in G Gundam.

It is a very unique design and vary advanced in many ways, such as all of its movement being attributed to its I-Field Generator rather than servomotors, leaving most of the MS actually hollow for storage of various weapons (of which almost none were actually shown in the series) for a wide range of applications. Also its overall performance probably should be higher than what is seen in the show simply because Loran is not a newtype.
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>>20550068
>Its beam rifle is fairly high-powered, but the comparison to a colony laser comes from one of the novels not the anime
AFAIK I don't think this claim has been actually substantiated or cited to any actual source. It's just assumed to be from the novels or something.
>>
IBO fans everybody
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>>20550068
There was a sort of diffuse beam gun built into the chest, but I only recall it being used once.
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This thread convinced me to never watch IBO. Thanks everyone, you saved me some time.
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>>20550195
no problem anon. good choice, you saved yourself a lot of boredom
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>>20549861

I wasn't trying to dispute your overall point; only to point out inaccuracies. Ones that have been plaguing /m/ with years at this point. That said, I would point out that the lore regarding the Moonlight Butterfly being created from Devil Gundam cells does mention that they are evolved DG Cells in some manner if I recall. Which, for the record, evolution does not mean better or worse; just more fit for a purpose. They have been changed so that they're safer basically, but it may also mean they're no longer subservient to the Devil Gundam. Which is Sunrise wants to say in manuals.

I would personally not give any of the non-animated Turn A stuff much notice, and would classify the other Turn A's as different versions of the same suit; the way I'd view the FA RX-78 in Thunderbolt differently to the RX-78-2 and not expect any discussion of one to conflate with the other, but if Sunrise want to hold that the Turn A is the strongest suit in the franchise then they do have the final say and there is some basis in the lore they could build that out from. Such as the DG Cells being a new version compared to what was in G Gundam, the implication the Turn A has a psycomu system in the animation, the constant underlying implication that no-one in the show knows what the Turns can really do and that there's more they don't know than they do etc.
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>>20550068

I don't know why you'd count the beam sabers as built in when they're just stored in racks on the shoulders. Also, you have the invisible/teleport thing backwards: Gym says that the Turn A has turned invisible, but games and such have it teleporting instead. The "low power" thing never really made a huge amount of sense to me either, just because it doesn't make any sense that the nanoskin that protects everything found throughout the show in mountain cycles is pretty clearly laid out as being Moonlight Butterfly nanomachines keeping the technology basically in stasis, and all of it comes out in perfect working order, but somehow the Turn A itself, the thing that houses those same nanomachines, can't keep itself in tip top shape?

There is something weird going on though, because while the Turn A is damaged by a simple punch from a SUMO early in the show (episode 14), by episode 44 it can soak up a sustained barrage of fire from the Turn X (there are literally dozens of beam cannon shots hitting the Turn A; upward of 50+ shots), it tanks missile hits etc. I don't know. The idea the unit just needed a few extra weeks to finish repairs despite having centuries buried makes no sense, but there's not really much else that could be used to explain it either. Horace professes to having no idea about the unit when he looks at it, because despite being a Moonrace nanomachine engineer, the unit's nanomachines are beyond his experience or knowledge so clearly he didn't fix it. And if he didn't, there's really no reason someone else would be capable of it off-screen.

It's really just writer fiat, and there's probably some way to make it make sense, but if there is, I don't know what it is.
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>>20550085

Some anon who read the novels a year or two back gave clarification on that, which is to say it's basically nonsense. There's nothing in Fukui's novels about it being as strong as a colony laser, and the body of the Turn A is destroyed when blocking the Keilas Guilie's colony laser shots to stop them from hitting the Earth. The Core Fighter survives, but that's it. Mind you, reading the Japanese Wiki info on it to try and refresh myself on what that anon said, it appears to indicate it took two such shots before being destroyed and that the Keilas Guilie had been upgraded to be stronger than even a colony laser by then? It's a Wiki article, so grain of salt and all that. The rifle being stronger than a colony laser doesn't appear to originate from the novels though, regardless.

Mind you, I believe some of the G Gen games have done more with the Black History Turn A over the years, so maybe there's some basis there now.
>>
where does the lore about DG cells come from? some anon here said it was in tomino's setting notes but is there a real source for that? previously i've only heard this as part of some anon's theory that he made up to link various AUs together into a single timeline
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>>20550455

I think the information may come from Turn A Gundam's two "Memory of Wind" art books, alternately known as Complete Record Collection 1 & 2. I can't read Moon though, so I'm only going off my half remembered memories of where previous anons attributed it.

The two books are on e-hentai:

https://e-hentai.org/g/1382182/f7fd7b43f4/

https://e-hentai.org/g/1382233/ea42a1d96f/
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>>20550441
>evolved DG Cells in some manner if I recall.
"Perfected" DG Cells, actually. And if the various "Refined" MS are anything to go by then "Perfected" probably means "hopelessly nerfed".
>Which is Sunrise wants to say in manuals
That's pure assumption, anon.

>>20550442
>(there are literally dozens of beam cannon shots hitting the Turn A; upward of 50+ shots)
The Turn A is encased in an I-Field that's strong enough to be the means by which the Turn A's body moves. It's naturally going to be a lot more resilient to beam shots than to physical blows.
>>20550455
>some anon's theory that he made up to link various AUs together into a single timeline
lol that anon's name was Yoshiyuki Tomino. There are no AU anymore apart from SD and Build, all else is Black History. MG Turn X manual describes all the shows as one timeline and Light Of Life shows Amuro and Lalah having a "beyond the time" moment showing every other series except Build and SD being part of their future.
One timeline. Deal with it.
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>>20550167

I forgot to reply to this post: when Gym takes control of the Turn A he installs that weapon in the chest, which is only used once by Joseph in the second to last episode, to destroy the Turn X's backpack. The Turn A fires missiles from those same chest silo doors earlier in the show, when the militia digs some up to put in there.

>>20550497

> That's pure assumption anon

Well putting aside Sunrise's apparent spat with Tomino over Turn A's place as the "final" Gundam story, Fukui's Light of Life short puts the Turn A as some kind of ultimate unit that destroys each civilization. Hard to destroy G Gundam's civilization if the Moonlight Butterfly is weaker than the Devil Gundam or any other unit that came after it.

> The Turn A is encased in an i-field

We see the Turn A using it's i-field defensively in the episode where it's defending the field hospital. Beams splash off the i-field in a very distinctive manner that looks nothing like what happens when the Turn X shoots it. The cannon shots are hitting the armor and just not doing anything then, rather than splashing off an energy field.
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>>20550544
>Hard to destroy G Gundam's civilization if the Moonlight Butterfly is weaker than the Devil Gundam
Even harder if the Turn A's nanomachines came *from* Devil Gundam.
So basically Light Of Life sets it up as Turn X being found and Turn A being built at the end of UC and dusting that civilization, then periodically being rediscovered and off-screen dusting the world again between each other series with the events of the Turn A series being civilization recovering from the most recent dusting. This resolves Tomino wanting Turn A to be at the end of UC, the dialogue in the Black History Archives about the Turn A ending the Universal Century, but it creates the problem that the Moonlight Butterfly now existed before the Devil Gundam.

This of course could be glossed over since the "perfected DG Cells" is never mentioned on-screen anywhere and is only setting fluff. You could just as easily say that DG Cells were an attempt to replicate Turn A/X nanomachines and it all fits. If we take that angle, that DG Cells are imperfect Turn nanos instead of Turn nanos being perfected DG Cells, not much else changes.
>Hard to destroy G Gundam's civilization if the Moonlight Butterfly is weaker than the Devil Gundam
The Devil Gundam was destroyed, though, so there's no conflict there. You don't even need to buff the Turn A's nanomachines to match the on-screen feats of Devil, just say that Devil's nanos were that powerful because they were unstable and let the fact that Domon and Raine destroyed it be the end of DG Cells.
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>>20550497
>that anon's name was Yoshiyuki Tomino.
>MG Turn X manual describes all the shows as one timeline and Light Of Life shows Amuro and Lalah having a "beyond the time" moment showing every other series except Build and SD being part of their future.
none of that mentions the DG cells thing. i have no problem with the official canon being that everything is a single timeline, i'm not arguing against that and am aware that tomino originally wanted to even include his other shows such as ideon before sunrise told him to keep it to just gundam, but >>20549703 said that the DG cells thing was in tomino's setting notes for the show and previously i had only heard this as part of a theory some anon cooked up trying to directly link things together (which as far as i've seen the official canon doesn't seem to do at all, it only really says everything is 1 cyclic timeline but doesn't go into any of the specifics).
what i want to see is a source that the DG cells thing specifically was actually in tomino's original setting notes (and so was always originally intended by tomino) or an actual piece of official supplemental material that mentions it (to prove it's official canon, even if not originally intended by tomino, and not just an anon's theory)

>>20550494
interesting. i can't read moonspeak either though so i guess i can't verify it
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>>20550636
>official canon
It isn't. Being in the setting notes means it's an idea that Tomino decided *not* to use in the show. It's entirely off-screen, outside of the script, background fluff. iirc it was shown to me (here on /m/) as a screenshot of a page from some Turn A setting bible or something to that effect. But again, just because it was part of the initial concept does not make it canon since it's not actually in the story. Even if it was written by Tomino, it's no more official canon than Amuro getting killed by a random Dom pilot in the Mobile Suit Gundam novelization that Tomino wrote.

Honestly it's entirely possible, though, that I'm the anon you're thinking of. I did make a thread years ago to get /m/ to brainstorm about what order the shows might have taken place in since there is no official Sunrise stance on that other than UC is first and Turn A is last. And in that thread I probably mentioned that bit of fluff as evidence that the newtype civilization that built the Turn X could not have been Judau's Dandelion Colony from that one Hasegawa manga because if the MLB was made from DG Cells then the newtypes that created it couldn't have left the Earth Sphere until after G Gundam. Of course none of that matters now because animated canon is that the Turn A *does* get built at the end of UC and before all the other shows, so...

Which kinda sucks because I was *really* hoping we'd get official confirmation one day that ZAFT or ORB built the Turn A and the moustache was Lacus's idea. Just because it would make /m/ REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE for years.
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>>20550666
haha yeah you're the anon i'm talking about, that's the thread i've been thinking of. that was a good thread.
i assume you don't still have the screenshot knocking about?

>Of course none of that matters now because animated canon is that the Turn A *does* get built at the end of UC and before all the other shows
all this retconning makes thinking about this stuff awkward, kind of annoying if you're lore autists like us. oh well. i hear japan doesn't care about this kind of continuity as much
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>>20550698
I don't think i even saved it at the time. I was initially very resistant to the shared universe idea because it creates some big plotholes. The existence of space colonies and mobile suits get completely forgotten a dozen times over 10,000 years but somehow Graeco-Roman legends don't, for example. Then I watched Gundam SEED, which I rather enjoyed. After that I started arguing in favor of the shared timeline just to irritate the people who didn't want their favorite show to share the same universe with "Jesus Yamato". The fact that Destiny straight-up copied the Lunar Capital from Turn A to use as Copernicus in Destiny made it extra fun, as did Lacus painting a big white mustache on a Haro in one episode. The little things like the MG Turn X manual and Light Of Life were just icing on the cake, because it's always more fun to argue when you know the company that actually has final say on canon agrees with you.

It still doesn't make sense that words like "Sumo" or "Cancer" survive all the way to UC 10,000 but colonies get forgotten over and over, but it at least isn't as senseless as the "lol universes just MERGED dude weed lol" guys.
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I can't wait to see /m/'s reaction when the inevitable retcon comes this year
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>>20550792
Something to do with Reco?
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>>20550068
The resources I've found suggest that physical durability is a low point of the Turn A, the nanoskin armor only being able to restore minor damage. Which would explain why the Turn X never repaired its damage inflicted by the Turn A, as well.
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>>20550830
Yes
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>>20551016
Yeah, definitely cannot simply regenerate itself immediately with enough energy and raw matter like DG cells can
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>>20550729
>The existence of space colonies and mobile suits get completely forgotten a dozen times over 10,000 years but somehow Graeco-Roman legends don't, for example. Then I watched Gundam SEED, which I rather enjoyed. After that I started arguing in favor of the shared timeline just to irritate the people who didn't
Problem with that is Turn A establishes that over 2000 years isn't enough for Earthnoids to remake the tech needed to colonize space from scratch, and iirc the moonrace didn't expect them to for much longer, which means the AUs, which didn't receive any help from the moon race or secret tech stashes, can't take place in the black history. And in many of them MS alone are a recent development. AC for example, MS are developed by a handful of scientists later in the AC calendar, which itself proceeds a previous calendar. AD/00 MS are a fairly recent development in the 23rd century AD (literally the anno domini calendar with many of the same nations as the real life, putting the entire 00 timeline in direct conflict with UC which also was based on the real world).

In order for all the AUs to fit in the 7655 years between UC0 and CC0, UC0 having taken place around 10,000 years before CC2345, each show would have to be several hundred years at the most, especially since AD/00 takes up nearly 2400 years of the remaining 7655, leaving just over 5100 years for an increasing number of AUs to take place in.

It doesn't help that shows like X, PD, and 00 really fuck up the rest of the universe. Earth is pretty fucked up after the mass colony drops in X, and part of the moon is seemingly engulfed in the final battle. PD scarred the moon by bombarding it with dainsleifs and terraformed Mars into a livable environment. The ELS in 00 destroyed Jupiter's moons and turned the moon itself into an ELS colony. AGE establishes that humanity accidentally turned Mars into a toxic vat by trying to terraform it and failing.
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>>20550729
I forgot, there was humanity's final war that took several hundreds of years to complete that took place during Black History. And CE itself is apparently based explicitly on the real world and takes place after WW3. That's thousands of years to account for as well, not even accounting for the conflict between UC, AD, and CE all being based on real world AD.
>>
Sorry for triple posting, but I just realized FC must also be directly following AD. The colonies were directly based on and created by real world counterpart nations like America, China, Japan, etc. I think PD, AW, AC, and AG are the only ambiguous ones but I could be wrong.
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>>20551080
00's AD calendar isn't really that hard to explain away. For starters, the two kanji that are used irl for the AD calendar 西暦 actually mean 0"Western calendar" not "Anno Domini". Put them in google translate together and you'll get AD, but run them individually and it's 西= western, 暦= calendar. 00's 西暦 calendar could be a totally different western calendar than the Gregorian calendar we use today.

OR

00 could be an early entry in the timeline and simply a rediscovery/return to the old AD calendar after the end of UC.
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>>20551667
That's explained by 00. Union is a political bloc composed of the North and South American nations (including the US) + oceania + japan. So it would make sense they're explicitly using AD instead of a japanese analogue for AD. AD or 西暦 itself is recognized in japan as the gregorian calendar anyway. It's not a term invented by 00.

>00 could be an early entry in the timeline and simply a rediscovery/return to the old AD calendar after the end of UC.
The US, Russia, China, Japan, etc explicitly exist (or existed) in 00. They also do (or did) in UC, SEED, and FC. G Gundam even has an entire arc in the ruins of Shinjuku, which is unambiguous. If the MLB really reset humanity after every show then those nations wouldn't have survived without moonrace intervention, but that's besides the point.

The main problem is that these shows all have their own timelines and there realistically isn't enough time for all of them to fit into the thousands of years leading up to CC. The real issue with 00 is that it's not even an ambiguous calendar, it's literally set in the 24th century of their own calendar
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>>20552093
>Mobile Suit Gundam was written in the 20th Century
>we're in the 21st Century
>UC's first century is our 22nd Century
>Turn A gets found in UC's second century which is our 23rd Century
>ends the Universal Century and people go back to the old AD calendar
>00 is in the 24th century because there was no 3rd century of UC.

I'll admit that squeezing all of the other shows into just 10,000 years is iffy. It wasn't so bad when the Black History was only AW, FC, and AC because that gave them over 3,000 years each. However it's still only *implied* that rediscovery of the Turn A ends every single timeline. Even then, we're only assuming that every time the Turn A gets rediscovered it ends with the Moonlight Butterfly dusting Earth. That didn't happen at the end of Turn A, after all. It's possible that any of those eras of warfare could have been brought to a close by the *threat* of civilization getting wiped out.

Some of the settings, like AGE, have mobile suits be literally ancient history to the point that "The Gundam" is a legend. We kind of need the MLB to fix the environment from the end of AW, but not really with shows like AGE or IBO. We know, for example, from the epilogue to AGE that Kio eventually cures Mars Rays so that could just be how Mars gets terraformed to allow IBO to happen. We know that in the future of FC the colonies eventually leave Earth to explore the galaxy but this could actually be just because they found the Turn A and Turn X and went looking for their source with no MLB involved, leaving behind an effectively post-apocalyptic civilization on Earth to rebuild into whatever the next show would be. There are also things like the taboos in Reco, the taboos of the Moon Moon cult, and the argument in Turn A that some things need to be forgotten that could point to reconstruction governments actually suppressing knowledge about mobile suits and colonies rather than them just being lost to repeated stone-ages.
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>>20552177
I think it makes more sense that the timelines merged at one point in the history of Turn A rather than all of them occurring one after the other
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>>20552218
>makes more sense that the timelines merged
DUDE WEED LOL
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>>20552239
Did my logical conclusion upset you somehow?
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>>20552257
>timelines merging
>logical
How many marijuanas are you on right now?
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>>20543996
It obliterates the farm because it hits a fuel line. You can see that quite clearly in the scene. One of the scattered beams hits a fuel tank, ignites it, and then the explosions come up from beneath the ground as the underground fuel lines set off.

Personally, my theory is that the Hashmal was just old and damaged, and in its optimum state its beams would be stronger. It clearly expects its beams to be doing damage to nanolaminate-equipped suits, otherwise it wouldn't keep shooting them. And it can't be that it doesn't know about nanolaminate, as some people have suggested, because it has its own. Something is going wrong with its systems. Though I will acknowledge that "the Hashmal's AI is screwy" is an alternate possibility to "its gun is broken".
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>>20552177
>Some of the settings, like AGE, have mobile suits be literally ancient history
It's maybe a hundred or two years. AGE's intro says humanity only began its space age hundreds of years before the start of the show and the Colony Wars took place between two major colony factions and those factions still have remnants using their old MS to fight battles in Fardain (per episode 6), so it can't be that old. The reason it seems "ancient" is because they banned MS and high-tech weapons after the colony war (not all of them obviously). It's very likely AG0 was marked by the Silver Chalice Treaty but I don't think it's ever explicitly stated.

>"The Gundam" is a legend
But it's a different Gundam. It's the legendary Gundam that ended the war of the previous calendar that isn't ambiguously related to any other timelines because the Zalam and Euba, whose suits actually show up in the show used by descendants from those factions, were two of the primary combatants. Those factions are part of the recorded history of AG and still have "remnants" of a sort. Plus, MSV showed us what the legendary gundam might look like based on EXA-DB data and some artistic liberties by the characters. It doesn't look like anything we've seen before
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>>20552177
>from the epilogue to AGE that Kio eventually cures Mars Rays so that could just be how Mars gets terraformed to allow IBO to happen
The Everse system merely blocked the solar winds that spread the mars sickness up to the Martian space colonies that orbited Mars. The Mars Rays sickness was spread from Mars to the colonies by solar winds, that's why even people in Second Moon are sick even though the colonization attempt was over a hundred years ago. In the end of AGE we don't see a terraformed Mars, we see colonies in Mars orbit hence the epilogue saying the "Mars Sphere" is safe for humans, not that Mars was terraformed or safe. In the first place I'm pretty sure they never actually settled mars, the plan failed from the get go and the space colonies were plagued before settlements were created. The MSV tells us that between some satellites, base stations on Mars, and specially protected MS the magnetic storms are blocked, preventing the spread of the disease, it doesn't say anything about them filtering or removing the toxic particles in the Mars soil that caused the disease in the first place. I don't think there's any evidence Mars itself was fixed, just that the disease isn't a spread anymore.
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>>20552218
Turn A only really makes sense if UC lasted for thousands of more years and then got reset into CC, without taking into account any of the AUs

Another big problem is that the Moon clearly has a record of the black history, so they should have access to super weapons like the 00Q and other GN powered MS and maybe even data on the ELS, yet they use rather conventional technology by UC standards. When you also take G-Reco into account, they should reasonably have access to MLB equipped MS like the G-Lucifer, since the Rose of Hermes, which originated from Towasanga, had access to the blueprints for the G-Lucifer and probably others. It doesn't make sense for them to flounder so much when faced with the Turn A and Turn X when they should have the blueprints for yet another family member.

I guess you could argue that the moon race are a direct continuation of Towasanga and never got back the Rose of Hermes blueprints from Venus, but it seems strange they have Black History and other advanced MS but not the ones in the Rose of Hermes.
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>>20549162
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>>20552334
>doesn't say anything about them filtering or removing the toxic particles in the Mars soil
Not in the fluff for AGE, of course. But it could still make sense for it to happen between AGE and IBO.
>>20552341
>without taking into account any of the AUs
But Turn A specifically did that. That was the whole point. Also Light Of Life makes it pretty clear that while the Turn A did end the UC civilization that did not happen shortly before CC. The MLB event that immediately preceeds CC is not the same one that ended UC.
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>>20552290
yeah you're right dude it's just impossible in a work of fiction
>it's impossible!
more likely, you are jealous of my logical feat which solved this problem faster than you ever could!!!
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>>20552341
Are you saying that G-Reco possibly comes after Turn A then?
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>>20552326
I always thought the Mobile Armor's just were never particularly smart, just dangerous because they were powerful brutal self repairing and mook spawning and there were lots of them. They were designed to kill people, not to fight mobile suits. They'd do that if attacked but Hashmal kept trying to head for the city and only attacked the mobile suits when they'd interfere on it's route or fired enough to attract it's attention. In fact against Iok's squad it would just efficently cave in the cockpits and move on suggesting it's priority targets are just killing the people inside.

It probably knows the beam isn't doing much damage to the armor, but it doesn't care and shoots it anyway because it's programming is attack and nothing else and they're out of range of anything else and maybe it will stun it long enough to get it with it's claws.
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>>20553616
tomino says g reco is after turn a
sunrise says turn a is after g reco
just depends if you want to listen to the creator of both series or the franchise copyright holder
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>>20549793
>in most other shows the protags always make the million to one shot and win and they're tired of stuff like that
Yes, if it's the main character, not a supporting cast five episodes before the finale. In that respect Shino's failure was more than obvious and was not subversive whatsoever.
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>>20554693
He was trailing death flags all over the place, too.
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>>20552341

> Another big problem is that the Moon clearly has a record of the black history, so they should have access to super weapons like the 00Q and other GN powered MS and maybe even data on the ELS, yet they use rather conventional technology by UC standards

It's not really a problem because while the Moon didn't get it's civilization wiped out or anything, they still also clearly lost a lot over the years. The most visible sign of which (and most pertinent to this particular discussion) is the fact that no-one knows the origins of any the mobile suits they use. The WaD and WaDom are clearly related, but also clearly bear no design language with the Mahiroo. Or the SUMO. Which seems to have some shared lineage with the Turns, but no-one actually knows. The Moonrace just use them because that's what they've "always" used.

Additionally, you get things like Horace talking about how he can't understand the Turn A's nanomachines and has no idea how they can repair the unit despite being a trained Moonrace engineer who specializes in nanomachines. Whatever technology created the Turns is lost on the Moonrace, along with quite a bit else seemingly.

So the Moonrace no longer having access to advanced technology is a problem for them as a nation, one which fuels Gym's anger, since he thinks the Moonrace's pacifism and insular isolation has made them stagnant, but is not a narrative issue or one that really says anything about the order of Turn A relative to other works; including G-Reco. Either can go before or after the other, because the loss of technology is a plot point in both.
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>>20554446
One way makes sense, the other doesn't
One of those two had to walk their statement back, the other didn't
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>>20554693
There was also a flashy fight between rivals near the end.
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>>20554851
>He was trailing death flags all over the place, too.
He literally had the full set including "let's do XYZ when I come back" with a potential love interest. Boggles the mind when people think this whole development was "fresh and unique."
>>20555773
Which the antagonist predictably lost.



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