How would the humanity of Macross fare against the BETA in Muv-Luv?Would VFs and Macross Cannons stomp them out?
>>20193432Average Valkyrie is what 50 times more power than TSF? That said Beta's strength is in numbers, so even if you replace all of humanity TSFs with Valks, there would just not be enough to fight back.
>>20193432I don't know what the BETA powerlevel is, but keep in mind Macross is extremely advanced, they've got planet busters and FTL, and are spread all over the galaxy
>>20193432The BETA managed to be defeated by mechs that move slower than modern fighters, Macross tech would blow them the fuck out even if you disregard dimensional eaters and Macross nukes.
>>20193432I don't think any of the BETA could even stand up to the umanned drones in Macross. Like the AIF-7S in Frontier would probably be overkill for them. While the X-9 from Macross Plus would just wreck absolute hell on everything. Laser types being the huge threat in Muv Luv would just be decimated instantly by those fuckers.
>>20193480I'm not even sure the Laser class could damage Macross mecha.
>>20193464>nukes.woahit's "reaction weapons"we just don't specify what sort of reaction
>>20193492They're partially nuclear probably to start the reaction but leave no nuclear fallout and very very heavily implied to been magnitudes much more powerful than nukes. >>20193489Thats a good point they have much higher maneuverability than a TSF on top of Gerwalk mode and some of the later models just flat out having barriers and energy shields on their arms plus they regularly take way heavier hits than TSF without getting very heavily damaged. Like a micro missile can probably do way more damage than a Tank class ever could.
>>20193432>Would VFs and Macross Cannons stomp them out?Muv-Luv humanity would cream themselves in unison over what VFs could do, so yes. The TSFs they spent 30 years to develop and refine are encapsulated in just the intermediate transformation mode of a VF.Only way the BETA have a chance is if we take pre-Space War I humanity, meaning that the Macross still hasn't launched yet. All the tech that comes afterwards simply tips it too far in humanity's favor.
>>20193550The VF1 are roughly the same power wise as like ZZ era Gundams which I imagine would still run fucking circles around TSF and BETA. Probably the only think the BETA would have going for them early on is the VF1 was just barely going into mass production at the start of Macross so those handful of units would be priceless while destroids would probably get absolutely fucked by BETA.
>>20193570>The VF1 are roughly the same power wise as like ZZ era Gundamsfar beyond that.Nothing in UC touches VFs until Victory.
>>20193631Unholy power creep is what I dislike about modern Macross shows. VF-1 could suspend my disbelief as a fighter jets fan somewhat, but things like VF-25 and VF-31 with their thrust and power to weight ratios are just too op for my liking.
>>20193432This thread reminded me of the April Fools Fubuki that could transform like a Valkyrie.
>>20193651That's just the Phantom Gundam
>>20193642Macross' technological progress isn't a steady upwards line.Due to political and economic reasons certain technologies are restricted or dropped in favor of others. For example the VF-31 is actually weaker than the VF-25 despite being a later model.And unlike Gundam you don't get that problem of 50 super prototypes being built during one conflict running around retconning stuff.And the few special prototype fighters that have existed end up being one-offs that have drawbacks which are tweaked for mass production.For example the YF-19 was so expensive, advanced and unstable it had to be scaled back when it got mass produced. And AI drones were banned after the events of plus.You also have to take into account just completely different the settings and scale are.Gundam is trying to be a relatively realistic near future sci-fi setting so the scale of the technology is somewhat in line with certain scientific theories and predictions.Macross on the other hand leans a bit more into pulp fiction and because it deals with Aliens and other cosmic threats the setting is gonna have a far higher floor for its technological levels.Any of the VFs are pretty highly spec'd when you look at them side-by-side with Gundam tech, but the kind of threats they face are scaled with them so everything ends up balanced.
>>20193745>AI drones were banned after the events of pluscompletely untrue, ghosts are widely used by many factions, and there's also the lil drakens
>>20193745And to add on to that these are mostly marginal leaps being made over decades.There's like 30+ years between the VF-1 and YF-19. Then there's another 15-20 years until you get the VF-25 from that point.And you have units like the VF-19 Advanced and VF-3000 that extend the lifetime of older models to match up to newer ones.So the power creep really isn't much of a power creep when it comes to VFs.Comparatively Gundam phases out grunt units every few years.>>20193750You're right, they weren't banned but I remember something about them putting restrictions on them.
>>20193753they tone down the AI, or rather put shackles on them. They can unshackle them for extreme circumstances, like the final battle in Frontier
>>20193432much better i think, the BETA's would have a harder time hitting planetfall with earth fleet intercepting them.
Doesn't the BETA have some sort of unholy number of hives everywhere? They'd be able to rout the BETAs in their local area easily I guess.
>>20193432They would just intercept the Hives in space skipping most of the conflict. Even early UN Spacy is fully able to do that.
>>20193441The average VF is made to fight enemies with superior numbers.Why do you think they have so many goddamn missiles per VF and have a gatling gun.Between their weapons with huge range and their focus on fighting superior numbers, Macross would fair pretty well even if outnumbered.
>>20193760Pretty much this. A relatively low tech and hastily put together satellite network of orbiting nuclear weapons launching platform was able to held them back in Muv luv.
>>20193508According to Macross Chronicle, reaction warheads basically use heavy quantum (the same Protoculture Overtechnology super-material that makes most of their tech work) to initiate a pure fusion reaction and heat/plasma discharge/explosion. Heavy quantum exists with 90% of its mass in higher dimensions, so exciting it with certain resonance frequencies forces it to slam into our dimensions with incredible gravitational force and thermal energy, acting as a black hole-style trigger for a fusion detonation instead of a fission device or similar. This also results in net zero radioactive contamination.This effect is also used in reaction cannons (Macross cannons) which excite heavy quantum in such a way to force its mass/energy back into realspace as a forced nuclear fusion plasma beam of incredible power and crushing gravitational energy, wiping out even fleets of massive Protoculture warships with a single shot. Dimension Eater weapons take this a step further by using fold quartz (a super refined and rare form of heavy quantum) to basically create pseudo black holes on detonation. In Frontier they scale DE ammo down to as small as 25mm autocannon rounds and basically shoot black holes at shit in full automatic from autocannons, gunpods, missiles, and even in the form of beam weapons that basically shoot beam black holes at shit. These black holes then transition back into fold space/dimensions, taking chunks of matter and spacetime with them. tl;dr: Macross fucking straight up plays hell with multiple higher dimensions and the fabric of spacetime from day one, and by Frontier is all kinds of broken in terms of firepower.
>>20193794Dude, are you Seto Kaiba by chance?
>>20193805Nah, I'm just trying to articulate the fairly raw Japanese-to-English of Sketchley's translations. It's semi-impenetrable at times, but I can figure out the gist of what's being said and put it into a more understandable form that doesn't sound like Google Translate ate wood splinters.>>20193806Not even close. LOL.
>>20193808Not to say Sketchley's translations are bad in any way, they're just kinda raw and sound mindbending in some cases. Definitely need some smoothing out lol.
>>20193806Nice, I really appreciate your passion and knowledge.By the way how does the Fire Valkyrie compare to proto YF-19 and mass produced VF-19 variants?
>>20193813LOL that guy isn't me, I'm >>20193794, >>20193808, and >>20193812. As for your question, from what I gather from Macrossworld and the mecha archive, the Fire Valkyrie is basically a customized, heavily modified VF-19A with a bunch of its control limiters removed. The later VF-19s are split between downgraded/weaker export variants like the VF-19P and VF-19EF, and later upgrades like the VF-19ADVANCE which try to make it competitive with the VF-25.
>>20193838Macross Mecha Manual and the Macross Compendium both state that Basara's Fire Valkyrie/Valkyrie Custom hews a lot closer to the YF-19 than almost any other production version, and has all the same performance and problems as the one Isamu flew in Plus.http://www.macross2.net/m3/macross7/vf-19custom.htm> The VF-19 Custom featured a modified version of the prototype fuselage that balance the high performance inherited from the original unit. The VF-19 aimed to improve the balance by reworking the fuselage structure, but the VF-19 Custom daringly maintains high maneuverability by following the original YF-19 concept.https://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-19_Excalibur> While the fighter form of the YF-19 boasted astounding maneuverability performance, the decrease in maneuverability control proved fatal. The VF-19 aimed to improve the balance by reworking the fuselage structure, but the VF-19 Custom daringly maintains high maneuverability by following the YF-19 concept.The Fire Custom is actually faster, with an thrust to weight ratio of 19.64 and a maximum thrust in atmosphere of mach 5.5 to the YF-19's 15.43 and maximum speed of mach 5.1, thanks to upgraded engines that produce some extra thrust over the prototype, along with some extra maneuvering thrusters and a few differences in the frame shape. According to the Japanese wiki: the VF-19 Custom has a straighter strake that connects the nose to the main wing, the forward wing is larger, and the position of the vertical tail is shifted backwards.
>>20194009So it's straight up op. I wonder what Isamu would think about it.
>>20194030It'd be fun to see him hear about it, get in all excited for his new toy and then look at the control scheme in confusion and have to try and grapple with it.
Considering music is literal space magic in Macross, would they be able to make it work on the BETA or their creators?
>>20194456I think you mean the BETA Masters? Or, as one might call them, the Master BETAs? At which point, yes, I think Walkure would be able to win them over. One need only ask Bogue about that.
>>20193432Yes and it would not even be a contest, i like Muv Luv but it is obvious the TSF are on the absolute lower end of the mecha scale, not helped by the fact that humanity spends just as much time having internal conflicts instead of developing new tech and fighting the BETA. The Laser BETA can snipe planes, shame the VF are like 10x faster and have functioning armor, something only the Susano o has in MLA. The pilots would worship the feet of the UN Spacy if it got them a VF to ffight with
>>20193570>VF1>in any way equal to ZZ eramore like Gaia Gear, and even then, questionableValkyries are far beyond UCwe’ve talked about this in threads before, even the rounds they fire are reverse engineered from alien supertech, human hardware in Macross is crazyUN Spacy would STOMP the BETA
>>20194515To put in perspective how far apart their tech is, the Zeta Gundam's Hyper Mega Launcher has a power rating of 8.3MW and the Lancer, which is the UN Spacy's crappy manned space fighter, has twin beam cannons rated at 750MW EACH.https://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/z/msz-006.htmhttp://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/sf3a-lancerii.htm
>>20195280I think it's well established that in Japanese mecha shows, outside of heights, the numbers are complete nonsense.
>>20195280I'm pretty sure Lancers never appeared outside the first few episodes of SDF, abd only ever jobbed even there, but l really love their design and would love to see more done with them at some point. Or more realistically, another project entirely that focused on similar designs. I love that slim profile that concentrates on forward gunfire.>>20195290That's genre fiction as a whole, not just Japanese mecha shows.
>>20195295>genre fiction as a wholearen’t the main guns on tie fighters equal in output to tens of nuclear weapons? I remember reading that somewhere, ridiculous lol
>>20195307I don't know that I've ever seen a power rating for them, but it also wouldn't be surprising. The Empire in EU stuff wipes out planets using similar scorched Earth tactics that Zentradi do in Macross. Only, the Empire generally just has a Star Destroyer or two sit in orbit and shoot continuously until the planet is uninhabitable over a few hours or even days, rather than entire fleets doing it in a few minutes like Zentradi. So some blaster shots in Star Wars have to be up there in power, but I don't think I've ever seen anything definitively talking about snubfighter weapon power.
>>20195307Just remember that the Death Star Exists. Look at it from a outsider perspective, that shit is straight out of a Super Robot show, a literal planet sized battleship that can move, carrying massive battleships and countless minor fighters, that has the power to erase another planet in seconds. Sci-fi is fun, but rarely makes any sense
>>20193838Interestingly, my understanding is that the VF-19 family used more powerful engines than the YF-19. The main 'downgrade' made was in maneuverability.
>>20195365There were several VF-19 variants, such as the F and S, which did have more powerful engines. However, these seem to have been restricted to "main" Spacy units, and after the NUN/NUNS restructuring, they seem to have disappeared from squadron service. The VF-19P, VF-19EF, and similar downgraded variants were introduced for colony/fleet use, and are downgraded not just in terms of maneuverability, but in general avionics and combat capability as well; for example, the VF-19P has a more primitive fire-control system that halves its missile lock-on capabilities. This appears to have been a conscious design choice by the UN and later NUN governments, in order to prevent colonial forces from matching their main fighters in case of rebellion. In fact, VF development in general post-Super Nova seems to be colored by this pervasive fear of colonial rebellion, and how Earth NUNS must technologically stay several steps ahead of all other NUNS forces, providing them reduced-capability "monkey models" and such.
>>20195464That's a fair point, I hadn't considered the Zolan model, and that the vast majority of examples would likely be more like that.
>>20195476Yeah, a combination of cost-performance calculations and a fear of rebellious colonial NUNS forces seems to have spurred the adoption of the VF-171 and QF-4000 for the majority of the NUNS, along with downgraded VF-19 variants for elite squadron use. Easy to fly/use, cheap, and very capable against Zentraedi and rebels, even with stolen/surplus last-gen VFs, yet still outmatched by modern Earth-spec VFs like the full-power VF-19, VF-22, and the new VF-24 types. That said, rebellious NUN colonies tend to know about these restrictions and get around them in various ways; Macross Galaxy just cyborged up and built the borg-only VF-27 Lucifer that rocked most everyone because illegal cyborg tech, while the Windies bought advanced Sv-262s under the table then brainwashed vast numbers of NUNS units via Wind Singer Var Syndrome bullshit, putting loyal NUNS forces into a dilemma over shooting their own people.
>>20195464I think the VF-19A might the only mass production variant that keeps the high maneuverability of the YF-19 prototype. As far as I know, the VF-19F and VF-19S models, the two mass production variants that appeared in Macross 7, both had less maneuverability in favor of greater stability. The VF-19F and VF-19S certainly don't look quite the same, since both ditch the forward canards that the YF-19, VF-19A and VF-19EF/A have, as well as having quite a different main wing design.That aside, does Gamlin ever pilot a VF-19 in 7? I think he piloted one in Dynamite 7 but I don't see anything on a quick look about him piloting any in 7 itself. Which seems a shame.
>>20195534The F and S focus on space maneuverability, replacing the forward canards with a more blended body and incorporating much improved vernier thrusters. As for Gamlin, I don't think he actually flew a 19 either; he flies a 22 in Dynamite, but aside from a couple unreliable sources I don't think he ever flies a 19.Edit: Purged old unreliable info.
>>20195525Speaking of Sv-262s, how do they compare to the VF-25 and VF-31? I know that the VF-31 has lower performance than the VF-25 despite being created years later.
>>20196296Sv-262 is designed specifically for two things: Fighting other VFs and MUH WIND autism. As we see in the show, the grunt Sv-262Ba jobs to grunts in VF-171s unless flown by named characters. The commander model is a cut above, but not by much if Delta Flight's mediocre performance is to be believed. I suspect that if all else were equal, a properly Super-packed VF-25 would probably win that fight, as would a competently flown/outfitted VF-31.tl;dr: It's a pretty mediocre craft by contemporary standards, unless plot armor/command models are involved.
>>20196296They lack some features like Ex-Gear compatibility and ISC, but I think performance wise they beat the 25>>20196332>Losing to a 171When does that ever happen? If it's during the final battle post Sigur Barrentz activation I'd say it doesnt really count since they're being mindcontrolled
>>20196340I'd have to rewatch the series, but I know it's after episode 18, when the Voldorans and other conquered planets break free from the Var brainwashing thanks to Walkure. The grunt Sv-262s get shafted by VF-171s on several occasions well before the final couple episodes.
>>20196340The Draken doesn't need stuff like the ISC though, like the VF-27, the intended pilot of a Draken would be a winderemerian who is essentially superhuman.
>>20196462>>20196340They actually do have an ISC. However, only the Hs commander variant has Fold Reheat.https://macross.anime.net/wiki/Sv-262_Draken_III
Don't care about some random porn game series. Don't drag macross down with this.
>>20202142If you didn’t care why’d you bump it? Good for me then, I was thinking of saving it for continued discussion, thanks :)
>>20193432I agree that the VF would trounce the BETA, but frankly the biggest part of Macross would be the fact that they can make humanity get its shit together for once, hell one of the biggest problems they face in the Muv Luv verse is that humans fight among eachother more than they fight the BETA. Power of music/idols/understanding or whatever > VF
>>20193794Hey, Seto! When is Macross Mecha Manual going to get a Delta update?
>>20202142Macross hasn't been good for 27 years. Kawamori cocksuckers are delusional.
>>20202226To be fair humans/"Children of Protoculture" fight amongst themselves in Macross pretty constantly too, in Delta it's the Windermereans, in Frontier Galaxy orchestrated the war with the bugs, and in the games and sidestories there are always rogue Zentraedi, anti UN elements, and so on. But it does seem like humans/zentrans/etc are more united in Macross than they are in ML, yeah.
This is an interesting thread. I never really thought about too deeply before.I'm quite surprised that the general consensus is that the Macross universe would have an easy time dealing with the BETA. I thought TSFs were more powerful than VFs, at the very least they're like twice as tall. I'm curious as to what that's based on anyway, the idea that VFs are more powerful than TSFs. As for my own contribution, the problem is that the BETA "empire" is absurdly large. They basically own at least every planet in the Milky Way, if not everything in our local cluster of galaxies. They don't seem to have abilities to fight in space, but they could easily just adapt themselves to do that like how they did with the Soldier-class. Plus, Lux-classes can shoot re-entering ships and can probably do that in space.The music aspect of Macross is the most interesting aspect for survivability as people have mentioned. If song can get through to the Superior-class then there's a chance, but they also don't consider humanity to be living so they might view it like the song of a cricket before they stomp down on us.
>>20202457It's mainly that thanks to Protoculture Overtechnology, the Macross universe is a couple million years technologically ahead of ML. Even the smallest and weakest VF uses fusion turbines which achieve ridiculously powerful nuclear fusion reactions (in the 100+ MW range) via gravitational anomalies despite having the reaction chamber size of a human's fist, their weakest CIWS lasers are lightyears ahead of even late UC Gundam, billions of entire giant clone armies are all over the place, and instantaneous FTL is a regular thing in all their space navies and even for civilian transport. They make fucking Gaia Gear look like a bunch of cavemen, and LOGH and even Star Trek are like canoe-riding natives compared to Frontier and Delta-level tech.This is before universe-breaking shit like reaction weapons and song energy come into play.
>>20202457Music managed to turn the protodeviln, interdimensional vampires who saw the sentient races of Macross as food, and even AI generated personalities. Singing is so broken in Macross they started weaponizing it en masse.
>>20202457>there's a chanceANIMA SPIRITIA!
>>20202487The protodeviln at least seem to be carbon-based lifeforms. The BETA seem to view us like we view trees or something. However, the power of music probably could overcome that. The BETA are able to communicate with humanity through Kasumi and her sisters so if you turned her into an idol she'd be like Ranka communicating to the Varja.
>>20202457What are the capabilities of TSFs? Because Macross VFs are way. wayy stronger than you think. Their shittiest valk (VF-1) can shrug off tank rounds, fly at hypersonic sopeeds, survive reentry with no issues, and carry enough nukes to level a continent. Later models can FTL by themselves and even carry planet eaters
>>20202508>The protodeviln at least seem to be carbon-based lifeforms. The BETA seem to view us like we view trees or something. If I'm not mistaken, the protodeviln are energy beings and don't have physical forms in their true state, the forms we see of them in the anime are suped up bioweapons created by the protoculture to bind and use them as weapons during the protoculture civil war.
I think BETA will have a better chance against anything from Macross universe.They are larger in numbers, and they won't hesitate to become meat shield in order to reach their goal. Removing one only means more will come afterwards. They can multiply with any resource they can obtain.Although having the upper hand in terms of tech, human are mentally weak against great threats. There are other factors like different agendas and shit.So ultimately there is no way to win against BETA.
>>20202535We've already put all of these hypotheses to restMacross would win, and easily
>>20202535I don't see how the BETA can defeat the vajra, who managed to adapt to becoming immune to all conventional weapons, and was suggested to start adapting to anti-matter weapons.
>>20202535>anything from Macross universeDon't underestimate music bullshit
Could laser class even do damage to VFs? I can't remember the details but even TSFs could sustain a second or 2 of laser class assault and speed wise there's a major difference between the TSFs and VFs.
>>20202535>Although having the upper hand in terms of tech, human are mentally weak against great threats. There are other factors like different agendas and shit.Bro in Space War 1, Humans were fighting a fleet of nearly 5 million ships from a race of ancient bioweapon clone soldiers.That fleet is equivalent to one of many roaming around the macross galaxy, and they're not really considered a huge threat anymore. Modern VFs have pinpoint barriers and ECA, laser classes aren't really a big threat either.
>Destroy your BETA hive in outer spaceNothing personal bugs
>>20202457>I thought TSFs were more powerful than VFs, at the very least they're like twice as tall.This is a disadvantage in this case. A GERWALK VF can easily hide itself from Laser coverage under the forward lines without losing speed, a TSF can only be covered by a Destroyer or a Grappler in an emergency. Furthermore in weaponry TSFs are lacking in all aspects against Protoculture-derived technology with the exception of melee weapons, which SW1 UN Spacy has no equivalent for; however later advances in PPB technology would indicate that the melee capabilities of a post-SW1 VF would far outstrip that of 3rd-gen TSF supercarbon bladed weaponry. Laser interception is an oft-debated point but the anti-orbit exception displayed at the climax of the original series has been shown to be a specialist BETA class created after the Superordinate decides that it's time to take the gloves of. In turn this depends on what it's shooting at and which time point of the BETA invasion is being matched up against which time point of Macross humanity. In general the time points most favorable for the BETA would be Macross Zero humanity and early-SDF humanity, under the assumption that the BETA War has been going on for its full canon length and that super-dimensional fuckery does a 1:1 swap between the human civilizations of both series. In that scenario, human defensive technology has yet to fully develop beyond experimental concepts and they lack the numbers against the full force of the BETA. But if we flip the paper around and the BETA are the ones starting off from their Lunar landing phase, they have a lot of disadvantages to work with on anything beyond Macross Zero, and even if they survive the UN Spacy on the moon, itself highly unlikely since unlike their Muv-Luv counterparts they'll be bombarded with high-energy weapons and a carrier force from day 1, they'll have to contend with the extermination efforts of a unified planetary nation and military.
Didn't humanity in Muv-Luv manage to defeat the BETA on Earth, the Moon, and Mars within 50 years of Alternative (and the Mars ones are theoretically the most advanced BETA in the Sol system)? Macross's humanity, especially by Frontier or Delta, are far beyond what Muv Luv is probably capable of even by the end of that time as it has at least over a dozen migration fleets each with their own fleets, cyborgs, super AIs, multiple planets, FTL travel, various alien allies, and weaponry that is able to wipe out a quarter of a planet in one-go.
>>20203583Yes, although post-Alternative humanity might be catching up with Macross. I've heard the Ishkur can do stuff like limited teleportation and things like that.
>>20196340I thought EX-Gear became a standard?
BETA is beta.Alpha male Chirico is enough to destroy all of them.
>>20195464Earth and the major NUNS fleets still use the VF-17 (D / S), VF-19 and VF-22 for special forces squads, to supplement their limited production "YF-24" and Earth-spec VF-25.
I remember way back in the day we already ran direct comparisons of the official numbers and even a VF-1 has like three times the engine thrust and top speed of the average TSF. Once you throw pinpoint barriers into the mix there just isn't any comparison, a VF could easily do all the things a TSF can and more.
>>20203848Blame the wind autists
>>20202457BETA's numbers and their reach across the galaxy means jackshit against Macross humanity. The average rouge zentradi fleet has around 5 million ships, and these fleets are everywhere.The average VF carries weaponry for dealing with enemies in superior numbers, be it large amount of missiles or just weapons with large AOE. Against an enemy like the BETA, they would not hesitate to use reaction weaponry or god forbid, dimension eaters. And we haven't even got to the Macross class ships.
>>20203942This seems like it could be massaged into Steiner Math
>>20202514>>20202508>>20202487The protodevelin are literal energybeings that feed off the will of living creatures and take physical manifestation through possession. They are literally akin to demons from 40k. And to expand on that, Macross and 40k shares somethings. When people sing they are literally channelling the power of the fold. Which explains why windmears windbullshit is so strong. They are literally linked directly to the fold and have a general understanding of it. No psykers from 40k are channelling the warp to cast their spells, and they do this through chanting. BUT IT DOESN'T STOP THERE The zentradi are a race of green super soldiers made to fight a war. So are the orcs. I believe that UNSpacey could go toe to toe with Imperium of Mankind (they may not win) but it could be a very close fight. Especially the combat doctrine of the macross universe counters that of the Imperium. Unlike the imperium, Macross's humans aren't opposed to giving up land as they fight very mobile. Opting to use hit and run tactics.
>>20204005Pardon? The hell is steiner math?
>>20203894Votoms' military probably greatly outnumbers the BETA anyways.
How can the Beta even compete when the nuns have 20 factory satellites ;http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/factory-satellite.htm
humans vs zentradi vs BETA's on and around earth
>>20205081so where does these things get their supplies to make that much shit?
>>20205113Honestly that's a good question. I don't know. Maybe it's like supcom
>>20205113Eating asteroids and other stellar debris, presumably.
>>20205113Possibly also towing its own resource satellites, presumably it maintains a stock of whatever it manufactures and so can tow a couple of raw material stocks for ages on end if no one depletes the stock, or the Zentradi might also be taught basic upkeep like "if red light flashes, find and swap in new rock on the end".As for humanity, if they could tow 20 of these back to Earth even in the immediate aftermath of Space War 1, then the Asteroid Belt can provide for eveything else.
sheesh, Macross really is just Warhammer 40K: Good end
>>20205403Not really. As crazy as Macross is, I doubt it could stand up to 40k. Macross's humanity hasn't exactly settled the whole galaxy yet.
>>20195534The VF-19A has limiters in place so that pilots won't die.
>>20205113Factory Satellites use robot drones to gather resource materials. The only one different is the Protoeevlin Legacy Factoryt Satellite that is pretty much Macross' version of the Star Forge in Star Wars. Extracting energy from Subspace like what the Vajra do it produces ships and weapons. It was how the Supervision Army was supplied and the Varauta Army made its fleet from.
>>20195534I thought Gamlin used a black VF-22S in MD7.
>>20205579did the NUNG let the Protodevlin keep all their territory and resources, or did they abandon them since they can already produce spiritia on their own?
>>20205862There were only a handful of actual Protodeviln (8 in total) and most of those left out universe at the end of 7. Gelepnitch and Sivil definitely left, and Gigil died during the show defeating another Protodeviln, Valgo. Gelepnitch killed Goram and Zomd to absorb their spirita according to the Wikia. Which just leaves Gavil and Gravil. Who show up in FB7, from what I gather. So they may have left and returned, or just never left. I imagine they freed any enslaved Zentradi/humans though after they realized they could create spirita on their own, since they no longer had a need for an army or territory.
>>20205414See >>20205071. Anima Spiritia + Song Energy = super broken galaxy-wide OP.
>>20205071>UNSpacey could go toe to toe with Imperium of Mankind (they may not win) but it could be a very close fight.Have we seen the UNSpacey get serious in any of the recent entries outside of the final battle of second Frontier movie where a large unified fleet of a dozen Macross ships show up?
>>20206009They also send an attack force against Windermere, but they get mindraped
>>20206009In the Wings of Goodbye those were SMS Macross reinforcements from other fleets. Though the Guantanamos classes in that fleet was modified to be gunships. Those were probably from Earth as they switched to the Uruga class as carriers. In the Wings of Goodbye novelization Battle 13, Battle 7 and Battle 11 were among the reinforcements along with Max and Milia.
>>20206284Some colony fleets also have Uragas.
So what Mecha series the BETA can do damage in? Gundam? Mazinger? Dragonar? Tekkaman Blade?
>>20207874Gundam: Early UC might perform a little better than MLverse but they'd still have a very tough time of it. Late UC, assuming beam shields can protect against lazors, would do a significant bit better, especially considering all the Newtype hax. Hell, for all we know, Amuro or whoever could give the Superior a newtype vision to make it UNDERSTAND. Mazinger: Definitely tough. IIRC Mazinger doesn't have a super science equivalent of Getter Rays, does it? So the Beta would overwhelm them pretty easily due to sheer numbers, even accepting the super alloys Mazinger has.Dragonar: IIRC it's about at the same tech level as early UC, so they'd definitely have problems. The Lunar war would be very interesting with Giganos, though, given their tech I think they'd hold out longer than human forces did in Muv-Luv, but still lose to overwhelming Beta numbers, especially since they couldn't use their mass drivers. After that though it all depends on whether the Federal forces are willing to nuke wherever the BETA land, they might save the Earth that way.Tekkaman Blade: Earth is straight up fucked. The basic Radam monsters alone were able to crush Earth's defenses easily, and they're nowhere near as powerful and numerous as the BETA.Other properties:Dougram: The Combat armors are slower than TSFs though they are good at jumping, the Earth Federation would definitely not be able to resist the BETA for long, although again they're probably ruthless and competent enough to nuke a BETA landing site immediately.Patlabor: Humanity is pretty fucked. Even the most advanced Labors like the Griffin are outclassed by most TSFs.Vifam: This one's interesting. I'm not very familiar with Vifam technical specs but I always got the feeling they were lower than even early UC, so both the Earth and the Kuktonians wouldn't be able to stand up for long against the BETA.
>>20207939Good analysis, though Tekkaman Blade would probably need some clarification. If the Radam replace the BETA then yeah, humanity is fucked. Ironically, the double team would give humanity a chance for someone like D-Boy to turn into a Tekkaman and fight the BETA. Also, maybe the Radam would fight the BETA for rights to control earth and humanity. Would be a great scenario for SRW if Muv Luv ever appeared/TB ever reappeared. D-Boy and Evil teaming up to fight BETA together would be pretty amazing. I'll add my own series to this though, since it's interesting:VOTOMS: Humanity is super widespread but most of the technology is way worse than TSFs, so I think neither Girugamesh or Balarant could do anything. We know Chirico wouldn't die unless the BETA got to Wiseman though.Getter Robo: I really think Shin Getter would wipe the floor with the BETA. The Andromeda Country are not as scary as the BETA but Emperor is much scarier than the BETA. OG Getter and Getter G may not, but I think they have a good chance anyway. Yamato: Unless someone wants to debate me, I think Earth is absolutely fucked.Ideon: The Ide will just remake the universe. Would be cool to watch it happen though.Code Geass: I'm pretty interested to see what people think about this, I personally have no idea how they'd fare. Could Lelouch use his Geass on the superior?
>>20208051>>20207874Code Geass would be a pretty interesting match up.Their most advanced mecha are more advanced than TSFs, but they're also way smaller, which can be an advantage or a disadvantage depending on battle conditions.Liberal use of the Fleja would probably help them too.CG's setting also had extremely advanced architecture, the entire toyko settlement's foundations were a giant megastructure that could be collapsed from computers.The float system also allowed for huge floating castles in the geass world, so they could just evacuate humanity into bigger versions of those and then use the omni-directional shields to protect the flying colonies from laser-class beta.There's also the Geass itself which could be a game-changing factor if it can be used on the Beta
>>20208051Yeah, the Radam would probably actually try to defend humanity against the BETA because their intent is to capture humans to turn into Tekkaman, it won't do for their future troops to just be eaten. In terms of powerlevels Tekkamen would waste BETA pretty easily, one throw of the Tek-Lancer would reduce scores of tank-class to bloody pulps and the basic Voltekka is easily as powerful as the XG series' main cannon. And that's not even getting into Blaster Tekkaman; by the end of the series D-boy probably could have destroyed the main hive on *Mars* in ten minutes or so.I agree with your other analyses. VOTOMs humanity would probably win against the BETA in the long run but due to strength of numbers, Getter Rays can outhax the BETA, the main Yamato battleship could do a lot of damage to the BETA but if they get a foothold there aren't many mechs from that universe to fight them in hives, Ideon is universehax, and I think Geass is generally comparable to VOTOMs in terms of tech except no interstellar colonies, so humanity would be very fucked unless someone Geassed superior-chan.Another property: Layzner. I think Earth in Layzner would be absolutely fucked, both due to lacking tech and because of the Cold War divisions. Grados, though? I think they'd be able to resist a BETA invasion. The SPTs are essentially faster and stronger TSFs and V-MAX gives them even more hax.WH40k: The BETA are just dumber Tyranids so the EMPRAH wouldnt have much a problem with them lol.Rideback: Humanity is absolutely fucked, segues can't fight tank-classZone of the Enders: Easily humanity's favor. The LEVs seem to be on par, maybe a little slower than TSFs, but Orbital Frames like Jehuty or Dolores could easily slaughter the BETA. Hell, Jehuty could just zero-shift/teleport down into a hive and kill the Superior in the 30 seconds.
>>20207874I've been thinking about the idea of MLA and 86 potentially crossing over in a future SRW since they're both airing right now, and the 86verse would be utterly fucked. The only way I could see humanity surviving is if the legion and BETA end up in a stalemate due to mutually unlimited forces (and the SRW plot would essentially have notEurope be intact but out of contact due the einstagfliege)For another series, Full Metal Panic would probably be entirely fucked. AS are a lot less manueverable than TSFs and there aren't enough Lamba Driver units for that to really make a difference.Infinite Stratos would be an interesting case to look at, since the series' tech level is surprisingly decently high since you have mecha musumes zipping around with Gundam armaments and all sorts of beam weaponry, but while their size and agility would make dealing with laser class much easier, they're pretty much defenseless if any of the other classes get close.Fafner could probably deal with them no problem, considering the fact that the Festum are arguably deadlier than BETA, and I'd bet any of the Salvator models could probably solo a hiveThe real question though - would Setsuna or Banagher be able to UNDERSTANDING bomb them?
How do I Muv-Luv? Can I get into it without playing any VNs?
>>20208316The MLA adaptation is being made for newfags but honestly your best bet to really enjoy the franchise is to just read the VNs. The other two MuvLuv adaptations did sidestories and they're both kinda meh
>>20205403The Vajra is also pretty much the tyranids but benevolent.
>>20193432How would the humanity of Strangereal fare against the BETA in Muv-Luv?
>>20208104The 40k thing really throws me around, I don't know which way it'd go. I feel like the BETA are more intimidating than the Tyranids, but I suppose it's because the 40K universe is way more developed. The BETA are more adaptable though, as evidenced by the BETA TSFs in the Integrate screenshots. A Soldier-class adapted to rape Space Marines would spell the end of humanity. Sure, the Custodes could hold them off but when one Custodes is killed, it's game over. In the end, only the Orks win because they get to fight. I agree with the rest of your analyses though. >>20208265>would Setsuna or Banagher be able to UNDERSTANDING bomb them?I think not, judging from how the BETA don't view humans as living even when Takeru was talking to them through Kasumi. Setsuna I think stands a better chance since he managed to meld with an enemy lifeform just as foreign to us as the BETA but even then, I don't think it would help. Banana would be fucked. Even though I mentioned Lelouch using a Geass on the superior, that's different because it'd be forced to do his will, whereas the leap the BETA would have to make to think of humans as living is the same as us thinking rocks are living. We're just a resource to make Soldier-classes at the point of MLA. I don't think any Gundam series really stands a chance except for maybe G Gundam and IBO. In fact, IBO might have the best chance due to the anti-laser coating on every MS. It's been a long time since I watched any Gundam so I might be misremembering power levels.
>>20208329are they H games or actual VNs? I haven't ever played a VN beforewhere can I pirate them
>>20208361>I haven't ever played a VN beforeit's all the fun of watching a nobudget anime, but you have to hit a button sporadically to make it happen
>>20208354>I might be misremembering power levels.00 could still survive even without Setsuna going UNDERSTANDING since the Celestial Being MS get to magic bullshit level by Trailblazer. Qant is broken as fuck + the fact that humanity was able to band together against the ELS would mean they'd be able to do the same against the BETAI'm not sure how IBO would do, they'd def be better against lasers but I don't know that their weaponry would be up to par unless mobile armors were involvedSeeing X taking on the BETA would be interesting, I don't know if the satellite cannon would be all the useful considering it's useless underground. They'd probably use colony drops for their Alternative V which would be fun though
>>20208361Bit of both, the official steam releases are censored but there are H scenes in the original releasethere's a resource link in the Muvluv general's op if you'd rather pirate to start
>>20208354The tyranids are way more adaptable. The BETA can adapt to an extent, but it takes them a long time, like years--Soldiers started showing up in 1995, and that was decades after they first landed, right? Tyranid evolution is much faster, some of the recent models like the Tyrant Guard have already incorporated Spess Mehreen DNA for instance (https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Tyrant_Guard). Additionally, Tyranids can infiltrate humanity with Genestealers, and the Hive Mind itself is a formidable tactician. A big plot point of ML is that if the Superior, despite being incredibly intelligent in some ways, was very dumb in others, if it had treated the conflict with humanity as a war rather than a mining operation at the outset humans would have lost ages ago. The Hive Mind on the other hand is always adapting, coming up with new bioforms and strategies, and so on (look at the difference between the first Hive Fleet's direct attack and Leviathan's more indirect approach for instance). >>20208345You mean Ace Combat, right? They'd be fucked, Laser-class already made mincemeat out of jet fighters and while the superweapons might put up more of a fight I don't think there are energy shields or anything like that in the AC setting yet, are there?
>>20208450>I don't think there are energy shields or anything like that in the AC setting yet, are there?hehe..
>>20208460Oh shit, I didn't know that. In that case the AC universe stands a decent chance, assuming the shield can stop lazors too. Just put give one of those things some nukes and let it tank Laser-class fire before glassing the original hive.
>>20208354You're underestimating the capabilities of GN particles.Plus with Setsuna's ELS abilities there's a whole other realm of possibilities we're unaware of.And if he doesn't feel like he can talk things out then the 00 universe could easily curbstop the beta.You also severely underestimated the technological levels of 00 and are over estimating IBO.In 00 they figured out FTL, psychic abilities, gravity manipulation, and other weird technologies like visual and thermal camoflauge.By the end of Trailblazer humanity would wipe out the beta easily.IBO's setting is one of Gundam's weakest, the MS there can't even fly unassisted, and tanks are still widely in-use in that setting against MS.
BETA would probably trounce the UNSC, but would the covies stand a chance? I shudder to think of what kind of abomination a flood-infected BETA would be
BETA aren't actually that strong by sci-fi standards. Any setting with FTL could wipe the floor with them flat out. And a good deal of settings limited by light speed could still do it easy enough. "Muh laser class" is something most sci-fi settings have to deal with by default, and otherwise the BETA's combat capabilities are rather pathetic even with their huge numbers. Muv-Luv fans are just a lot like 40k fans in how they seem to have a really big inferiority complex about pretending their stuff is more "hardcore" than other franchises because they're embarrassed about liking a porn game about girls in see through suits getting raped by giant walking penises.
>>20208580cmon man we're just having fun, no need to throw gut punches
BETA vs TransformersCosmic EraStarship TroopersAfter ColonyByston Well
>>20208607Depends on which Transformers setting.G1 / Car Robots / Micron Densetsu / Superlink / Galaxy Force are basically super robots / proto-Yuusha. They beat the BETA.Dreamwave and IDW Cybertronians can be defeated by humans. They lose to the BETA.
>>20208508>IBO's setting is one of Gundam's weakest, the MS there can't even fly unassistedIsn't that due to the fact most of the high tech stuff is forbidden? Bael, the first Gundam unit and a three hundred year old machine, could fly in a planet's atmosphere unassisted. The mobile armors could definitely fly unassisted, and they're even older than the gundams of IBO.
>>20208354The 00 universe, by the movie (AD 2314) could definitely take on the BETA on Earth, the Moon, and Mars. The BETA took nearly three decades to overrun a bit more than half of Earth, the ELS could do it within weeks at most probably and 00's humanity managed to put a good fight against the ELS. Laser class shouldn't do much against GN particle e-carbon considering the flag's railgun couldn't even scratch it and even literal hours of focused bombardment of conventional artillery couldn't.
>>20208508I guess I forgot all of that, it's been like four years since I saw 00. I stand corrected then. In fact the IBO mecha are probably like slightly better than TSFs with their laser coating and melee weapons, but the first Gundam is probably better than a TSF. >>20208580I mean I'm not embarrassed about liking Muv-Luv at all. It's got a bad-ass JAM Project opening and god-tier mecha designs, plus the story is pretty great and certain moments are very well executed. But I can somewhat see your point, it seems to be a contest to see how much you can wank off grimdark shit. Personally, I definitely think Muv-Luv is quite a grim setting and makes 40k look like baby shit since all the horrors in 40k are countered by god level bullshit and space wizard shit. But I don't think it's really a contest to see whose shitty game is the most grim and dark because I'm not fourteen.As for the first part of your post, in retrospect you're right. The BETA really only seem intimidating because they invaded in like the 70s and humanity never technologically advanced in the same way. It's well executed in the VN because it leaves an impression on you, especially because I find that the BETA are very creepy designs. But yeah, you're not wrong.>>20208607AC and CE don't really have any significant advances in technology compared to UC I think. CE kind of does with all the beamspam but it's probably at the same tech level as late UC overall. Here's another universe I don't think has been mentioned yet: Star Trek. How would the Federation fare? I've never watched Star Trek so I can't say, but I know the Prime Directive would make it a moral issue for sure. Star Trek TNG has an episode with a silicon-based lifeform as well IIRC.
>>20208821Star Trek federation would waste the BETA as would Star Wars now that I think of it. Even aside from being interstellar civilizations once you get beam shields in either setting the main strength of the BETA, laser class, becomes irrelevant. That said, think of what the Borg could do if they managed to assimilate a Superior-chan...
>>20208821The Q from Star Trek can erase the BETA from existence.
>>20208341NUNG- ImperiumZent/Ment - OrksWindshits - TauVajra - TyranidsProtodevlin - DemonsWe still need some Necrons and Eldar thoughNow I want to see Breetai meet a bunch of orks thinking them uncultured Zentrans and trough shenanigans end up being Warboss Breetai
>>20208821Humanity's tech level in Muv Luv is the biggest point in favor of the BETA, it is extremely low compared to pretty much every single other setting, and that makes them easy prey for a horde of alien "bugs". You can see the moment humanity teches out and gets a force field of some sort, ie the Sussano'o Rutherford Field they can bring the fight to the BETA on earth. There is also the fact we don't know for real the BETA's true capabilities because They are just a small mining operation, not soldiers. Muv Luv is like Avatar, natives vs a miners from outer space. They are not frontline soldiers and the Laser Class is no diferent than hiring an armed guard to shoo away the natives. There is another civilization behind them, and we know nothing about them
>>20208528no i think the UNSC can take the BETA before any of them can hit planetfall.
>>20208607>Byston Wellthat would give them a REAL reason to recruit pilots from upper earth, hell the UN, US and other countries would make backroom deals with the kingdom selling pilots for tech, over time the kingdoms become puppet state or Protectorates of upper earth.
>>20208607Aura battlers will wipe the floor with the BETA.
>>20193432Macross has FTL while the BETA do not so Macross can afford to run and build up their forces. Like always, the laser class is the biggest issue here. Macross's best defense isn't trying to resist the laser blasts but to throw down such massive salvos of missiles that the laser class BETAs have no time to hit the VFs. The other big issue is that there's WAY too many BETA. Reflex weaponry and Macross Cannons can reduce their numbers but if it comes down to a close quarters fight the TSF is the better option. Overall, I think Macross humanity might loose a planet or twelve but would eventually push the BETA back.
>>20193432What's the production capacity of Macross' cloning vats? Can they mass-produce Zentradi troopers to overwhelm BETA with sheer numbers?
>>20208345oh god now I'm imagining pixy in a fortified suit, I'm not gay I swear to god.
>>20208747No, because even the Bael had limitations on its flight.It does perform better in flight than the other units, but the MS in IBO use fuel for all their thrusters so its flight time is still limited.Compared to suits like the Freedom, V2, or any of the CB Gundams it's very low tech.
>>20209829Cloning legally stopped at 2030 due to hereditary diseases. Cloning Humans, this a broad term as it includes all Sub-Protocuoture species, are banned by treaty. Probably because Rogue Zentradi were literally cloning child soldiers at one point. Max and Milia adopted one. The creation of Mikumo in Macross Delta was a crime under the Galaxy Treaty.
>>20209829Absolutely, given the size of new-macross class vessels. Hell, some cities terrestrial were dedicated wholly to raising a clone population for further colonization efforts for a whole 20 years, and Humanity is at about 750 billion souls as of frontier/delta era macross.
>>20209807If close quarters combat becomes a majorly necessary thing then Macross fleets can start mass producing swords or other melee equipment for variable fighters rather than the knives that most VFs equip in Frontier and Delta. Which was new equipment as of the Evolution series, since previous generation variable fighters didn't even have melee equipment. Which wasn't because they didn't have the technology; it was because it just wasn't necessary given that most engagements were at range. Knives are used on modern variable fighters because they small and don't take up much space for how rarely they need to be used.Windermere equipped their variable fighters with swords because they knew their forces would be engaging other variable fighters regularly, though I don't know if those swords are enhanced with pin-point barrier tech the way that NUNs variable fighters knives are. Regardless, the Windermere SV-262 fighters are classed as anti-VF fighters if I recall, so melee was seen as a larger priority.
>>20193750Not trully autonomous, as shown numerous times during Frontier's run. Lil Drakens seem to be capable of some operations on their won and then, there is Sv303.>>20193756Luca's Ghosts were not typical examples thou, as they were heavily and illegally, modded.
>>20205075YOU KNOW THEY SAY ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL. BUT YOU LOOK AT ME AND YOU LOOK AT SOMOA JOE AND YOU CAN SEE THAT STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE! SEE NORMALLY IF YOU GO 1 ON 1 WITH ANOTHER WRESTLER YOU GOT A 50/50 CHANCE OF WINNING! BUT I'M A GENETIC FREAK AND I'M NOT NORMAL! SO YOU GOT A 25% AT BEST AT BEAT ME! AND THEN YOU ADD KURT ANGLE TO THE MIX, YOU THE CHANCES OF WINNING DRASTIC GO DOWN! SEE THE 3 WAY AT SACRIFICE YOU GOT A 33 1/3 CHANCE OF WINNING. BUT I, I GOT A 66 2/3 CHANCE OF WINNING CAUSE KURT ANGLE KNOWS HE CAN'T BEAT ME AND HE'S NOT EVEN GONNA TRY! SO SOMOA JOE YOU TAKE YOUR 33 1/3 CHANCE MINUS MY 25% CHANCE AND YOU GOT 8 1/3 CHANCE OF WINNING AT SACRIFICE. BUT THEN YOU TAKE MY 75% CHANCE OF WINNING IF WE WAS TO GO 1 ON 1 AND THEN ADD 66 2/3 %. I GOT A 141 2/3 CHANCE OF WINNING AT SACRIFICE! SENIOR JOE?THE NUMBERS DON'T LIE AND THEY SPELL DISASTER FOR YOU AT SACRIFICE!
Ok, so the consensus seems to be that humans with Macross tech would have a pretty good time of itWhat about NEXTs, and other technology from 4th Gen Armored Core? How does Primal Armor measure up to the Rutherford Field? From the mobility standpoint, while not as insane as Macross, NEXTs probably have TSFs beat
>>20205531They should have them wear helmets with tanks of blood on them that connects straight to the cranium, that opens up during heavy g maneuvers to keep a fresh supply of blood in the brain
>>20209990>humans with Macross tech would have a pretty good time of itMacross-verse in general is pretty bad for BETA even if its not humans.There are countless rogue zentradi fleets that number in the millions in the galaxy.The BETA's mining operations would have attracted the attention of the Vajra and Vajra wouldn't take kindly to their shit.
>>20209999They are already upgraded with EX gears by the time of Frontier.
>>20208265FMP really does bring a lot of interesting questions though since would whispered tech drastically change with the introduction of BETA or does the BETA just lead to a dead end for humanity.
Xenoblade SKELL's vs TSF'sWhich would do better vs the beta?
>>20209890The VF-11 had a bayonet for its gun. Pin Point Barrier Punches became more common. PBB blades are an option with the VF-25 and VF-31 for melee. The Sv-262 uses only a blade that uses ECA. It has a battery life of 3 minutes on its own but can be powered by the Sv-262's hands.
>>20210538Weren't pinpoint barrier punches just pilots improvising by covering the fist in a pin point barrier for melee the same way the SDF-1 did with the Deadalus Attack basically, rather than a designed weapon? I got the feeling from Plus that it was just Isamu and Guld doing it to attack each other, rather than something that it was designed for. That aside, while I had forgotten that the VF-11 had a bayonet on it's gun pod, the VF-25 and VF-31 aren't the only ones in Frontier and Delta with pinpoint barrier blades; the YF-27 Lucifer (and it's mass produced VF counterpart, the VF-27 Lucifer Green), the YF-29 Durandal, the YF-30 Chronos and the VF-31, both Kairos and Seigfried variants, all use pinpoint barrier knives too.
>>20210567>Weren't pinpoint barrier punches just pilots improvising by covering the fist in a pin point barrier for melee the same way the SDF-1 did with the Deadalus Attack basically, rather than a designed weapon?yup, it was entirely improvised, though I wouldn't be surprised if later on it was partially designed into the VFs control programming as an option.
>>20210646Yeah, it's the better option for a personal and rather petty fight like Guld/Isamu's fights, because two guys in giant robots with loads of guns and missiles devolving into a brawl just emphasizes how silly it all is where knives or swords or something both physically and metaphorically gives things some distance and makes it more visceral than personal. It also gives things a brutality that a swordfight or whatever wouldn't have, so it'd be nice to have some VFs do it again in future for one reason or another.
Honestly this thread is really good, everyone here has been posting some interesting shit. I've enjoyed participating in it as well. So one thing I think is being overlooked is that the BETA control a basically uncountable number of worlds. We don't know what the BETA look like outside of the ones we see on Earth. Plus, the sheer numbers advantage is ridiculous. Even with FTL, the amount of bug clearing they will need to do to truly defeat the BETA is staggering. The BETA probably control entire galaxies yet not a single Macross class has gone intergalactic afaik. Also assuming that the SDF-01 actually crash lands in 1999, the BETA also well and truly control Earth since they would have been there for 30 years. Interestingly, I guess we would have TSFs before we get VFs in that case but also, what if the BETA got to the Macross first?
>>20209933Galaxy also uses Sharon Apple tier AI on their ghosts, and that's during Frontier
>>20210017Vajra are not some sort of space police, and their MO seems to be "there's a problem? fuck off to another galaxy"
>>20211348Hard to say really.They did wage war against humanity all because they misunderstood how humanity works. Them giving the planet to Frontier could be interpreted in multiple ways, it could even be an apology.The Vajra moving to another place would only just deny the inevitable, the BETA will show up again, and I doubt the Vajra is dumb enough to not realise that. The Vajra also exist in other galaxies and their fold networks span across galaxies. It could end up with a intergalactic war.
>>20211498Only reason the Vajra attacked humanity was to take back Ranka, if they had just let them take her and not gone after her the conflict would have ended right there. Of course (((Galaxy))) and the cucked guy were manipulating humans to continue the fight, but that's when the Vajra hostility ends
>>20208607>Cosmic Era>After ColonyPwned by Laser-class. The end.
>>20211547>thats when Vajra hostility endsThe Vajra's reaction to the BETA and their relentless mining operations is hard to gauge.I believe the Vajra encountering the BETA several times and their seemingly standard procedure of just leaving the planet to the BETA would probably lead to the Vajra eventually deciding that they won't leave and start engaging in combat. And we haven't got to if the BETA actually attacked the Vajra Queen of a nest, forcing the Vajra into a defensive war.
>>20195280>>20195290>MWIf you want an accurate guideline for weapon damage, use Joules, not Watts.
>>20211937Beta consider Carbon based life as building materials. Considering Vajra create Fold based organics. The Vajra create Fold Carbon along with Fold Quartz.killing Humans when they thought we were a hivemind. Only when they realized Humans were individuals were they horrified at what they did. So as compensation they left their planet to Frontier as compensation.. Also they left Fold Bacteria as they probably feel sorry for Human. Then Var syndrome happened. Stop helping!Beta does not haven't that excuse and worse can't be negotiated with as they are actually machines that follow their programming. In the movie we seea Zentradi Mobile Fortress turned to a nest by Vajra. Push too hard the Vajra will take Beta nests for themselves.The Vajra were not concerned in
>>20211957That only works with projectles, retard. Those are beam weaponry and lasers.
>>20208051>Humanity is super widespread but most of the technology is way worse than TSFs, so I think neither Girugamesh or Balarant could do anything.Common AT machine guns are 30mm autocannons that would mince tank class and wreck grapplers with enough shots with optional rockets and bazooka for larger strain or indirect fire to distract laser class.
>>20212100>beam weaponryParticle beams fire, as the name well says, particles (ie. atom-sized projectiles) at light speed. Thus, measuring their impact in joules is correct.>lasersWatt * time = jouleA 750 MW laser firing at a pinpoint target for 0.7 seconds gives you the same kinetic energy as the 16" high-explosive shell of an Iowa-class main gun (750 megajoules).
>>20208265>Festum are arguably deadlier than BETAEven baters can't chomp people over the radio.
>>20211348They only fucked off because humans decided to live in their planet, before that Vajras are just big dogging their way trough their territory
>>20202457>Its twice as tall so it must be stronger!
>>20203177>Fleet of 5 million shipsProblem is, BETA was claimed to have 10^37 hives or something. Which is a bullshit number since there's currently estimated to be 10^25 planets in the known universe.Imagine having a trillion hives located in each and every single planet.BETA writers are stupid
>>20193761The total number of BETA in the universe (assuming the Superior that Takeru spoke with was just speaking about all Beta period rather than the number of Superiors) is 1E37, yes.
>>20212868>>20212871If you have to take on all of those numbers, I think even Macrossverse is fucked. However, if the BETA does not zerg rush and they only have to deal with hives in the local area it should be a breeze.
>>20208265>Full Metal Panic would probably be entirely fuckedidk about that, depending on the timeframe the beta first appear, all they need is to hold out long enough for one whispered to get some super hax anti beta tech to win
>>20203177There are more BETA than there are stars in the entire observable universe. They outnumber and outmass everything in Macross by several orders of magnitude. Wiping them out in their entirety is quite frankly, impossible for them.Even half of 1E37 BETA coming together in any appreciable amount would collapse into a singularity large enough to wipe out the observable universe as we know it
>>20212868>>20212871>>202128851E37 is also the lower bound for their total numbers. It makes the assumption that the BETA Superior Takeru spoke with was referring to all BETA lifeforms period. Takeru interprets it as 1E37 BETA Superiors. Assuming each Superior has an equivalent or greater number of Beta under it, you get something like 10^37+10^37x9^10...going on and on and on.
>>20212868>>20212871>>20212893Does the BETA actively "seek a target" and act as a hivemind? As in, if one hive finds an opponent will the whole 1E37 converge to their position? Those are silly numbers, even 40Kverse would be threatened
>>20212900No. The BETA overall give no shits about other hives or even other Superiors. They treat them all as expendable drones and workers (which they are). Wiping out one Superior will not draw the ire of the rest of the BETA because they do not care.>Those are silly numbers, even 40Kverse would be threatened10^37 hives is like, more hives than all the Imperial Guardsmen in the galaxy's individual cells combined. It's more hives than there are stars in the observable universe. It's more hives than there are grains of sand on all of the Imperium's worlds put together. If every Imperial Guardsman were given a hundred trillion bullets, and every bullet could 1-shot a hive, they would still not have enough bullets to destroy the BETA.
>>20212906Well, at least they don't have the most dangerous trait of "sci-fi space monster faction" which is a true hivemind.I'll agree that Macross can survive it despite the numbers, since they'll only have to deal with the ones they come across instead of the whole thing.
>>20212893good thing that'll never happen since the beta are just glorified harvesters and not actually designed for war.Even presuming the species that created them got involved, its far more likely they would reign them in anyway since they clearly had a failsafe to prevent beta from attacking "life" but fucked up on what the exact classification of "life" was
>>20212914The BETA's creators were silicon-based and had only ever found sapience emerging in silicon-based life. Thusly, they assumed that no other chemical bonding could produce life such as carbon, so the BETA were designed to register only silicon life as truly being "alive" and anything else as being completely non-sentient unliving material. It's not so much they had a failsafe as much as it is them just not believing carbon-based life could be a thing.
So are the beta inherently hostile(ignoring the fact they literally destroy the planet they land on)It's been a long time since I played MUV, but IIRC didnt the superior say that combat strains were developed as a defensive response and they initially didn't kill people?Also, didn't it ask Takeru to prove he was a naturally occuring lifeform or something but he was too monkey brained to do so?Just wondering because there are probably a lot of settings that could secure a diplo victory, presuming they somehow manage to make contact with the Superior
>>20212925>Google "Silicone based Life">Google's result summary say there is literally no way a silicone based life could be formed.Interesting inversion by the writers considering that's how the BETA creators see humans in Muv-Luv.
>>20212941I doubt it was meant as an inversion, because it's been common thought in sci-fi for decades that silicon is the only other element that could support organic life. Star Trek was doing episodes about it decades ago, for one, if I recall. Current thinking has revised that a bit based on how silicon forms bonds, the relative strength of those bonds etc. but that kind of deeper knowledge hasn't actually reached wider audiences, where the idea of "silicon could form the basis of life too" is a lot more pithy. Plus, it's not so much "there is literally no way" and more "it's exceedingly unlikely based on our current understanding of chemistry and human experience".
>>20212868>Imagine having a trillion hives located in each and every single planet.Only really an issue for humanity since they are actively searching out habitable planets.Not an issue for likes of the Vajra in an active war against the BETA though.>fold to BETA-infested planet>oh, this planet is fucked by BETA>glass it from orbit, harvest remains to expand Vajra hive>rinse and repeat
>>20213003Yeah, Vajra can live and operate fine in a vacuum as well as an atmosphere so they don't really need to care about any one individual planet. They do appear to need planets to form hives for queens, but any planet appears to suit their needs since atmosphere isn't an issue for them and they can basically adapt to anything.
>>20212885not really, you cant hold to bear that entire population at once. at most it woud be a steady stream of oncoming BETAs while Macross ups its production to wartime level.
>>20212941It's a common thing for sci fi writers in exploring the limits of life. Humans only know life as carbon based but there's no telling if our life is the exception or not. I remember a short story called "They're Made Out of Meat" where aliens discover Earth and decide not to make contact cause what the hell type of life is made of meat?
>>20212929Yes you're right, BETA are mining drones and classes like the soldier didn't appear until well into their operation on Earth. If their creators recognized carbon based life they wouldn't have ended up on Earth to begin with
>>20212929> Also, didn't it ask Takeru to prove he was a naturally occuring lifeform or something but he was too monkey brained to do so?What kind of proof was it looking for, out of interest? Cause if something is a good enough facsimile you want proof then that's probably all the proof you need. "I think, therefore I am". Anything else is pointless, because someone, somewhere will basically dismiss it as just a simulation of life.You have to assume it's real, because it's literally impossible to distinguish between actual thought and the simulation of thought. Which is where the idea of philosophical zombies comes from. How do I know anyone else is an actual intelligence, and not just a simulation of one? You just have to accept you can't prove otherwise at some point.If some BETA intelligence was conversing with a character then that's about all the proof it can ask for that humans are a sapient lifeform. Anything else is an unreasonable burden, and it's really on it to prove non-life. If anything, it's the monkey brain in that scenario from the sound of things.
>>20213911>If some BETA intelligence was conversing with a character then that's about all the proof it can ask for that humans are a sapient lifeform. Anything else is an unreasonable burden, and it's really on it to prove non-life. If anything, it's the monkey brain in that scenario from the sound of things.beta doesn't consider itself life tho, and they are carbon based
>>20214145It doesn't need to be alive to be intelligent, since a sufficiently advanced AI could be considered intelligent too.
>>20212868There might only be 10^25 planets in the known universe, but what about the unknown? I don't think that number is actually that unrealistic. At the very least it makes for the most terrifying reveal right when you think Takeru has nearly won.
>>20214188no it couldn’t
>>20213911>>20214145>>20214188The BETA Superior is noted by the narrative to not actually be sapient. It's basically a highly-advanced mining program that doesn't truly pass the Turing test despite being so advanced.
>>20214188>>20214526I think thats kind of what the anon was getting at. The beta doesn't consider itself an actual life form and more than likely viewed humans as some kind of automated defense system.IIRC at the very end it presents a corpse to Takeru and asks how it could be a life form or something
>>20214526So why ask of it can't actually determine an answer? Why even have it programmed to ask?
>>20214556Because the BETA are pretty much a AI, and AI are dumb. BETa thought process isIf (Entity.madeOf==Silicon)Then LifeElseKillHumans are not made of silicon so they can get fucked for bothering the mining operations
>>20214672That not only doesn't answer my question, it specifically calls the question into even more relief. If they are dumb, then why did it ask that question in the first place?
>>20214859Kouki posted a tweet stating that the BETA in the solar system were damaged by a supernova, it might have been programmed to be able to determine what is a living creature but that capability is probably now gone.Hell, literally everything the BETA superior said could be untrue considering the reveal that the Sol System BETA are damaged.
>>20214913>Kouki posted a tweet stating that the BETA in the solar system were damaged by a supernova, it might have been programmed to be able to determine what is a living creature but that capability is probably now gone.>Hell, literally everything the BETA superior said could be untrue considering the reveal that the Sol System BETA are damaged.How convenient.In any case, let's wait until he makes a proper sequel to Alternative's timeline.
>>20209999Or better yet, surgically implant valves that close during high G maneuvers and prevent blood from flowing backwards through veins. You can add miniature pumps too if you want to keep blood flowing as well.
>>20208059If you use Code Geass, I'd argue that Geass itself is the deciding factor. Besides Giga Brain Lelouch, you've got the chick from the movie who can rewind time as much as she likes, which would allow them to constantly retry and replan their tactics. All Geass users working together to protect the planet would be a real tough nut to crack. Lelouch didn't even know she was rewinding time, only that the it was a slim possibility alongside mind reading.
>>20214859we'll never know since takeru didnt bother, but since superior even bothered to ask i'm of the mind that it probably could have been convinced, albeit the chances might be slim.
>>20215172It probably could. You know how we are talking about people that could fight the BETA? The Creators probably put a way for the Superior to check if they are not fighting people that might get really really angry, lets put it this way, and try to kill them because their dumb miner bots started a war
>>20215183I wonder if there's anything that could pose much threat to the Creators, though. Like we've talked about how the BETA are stupid, but their masters probably aren't, and if there are 10^37 of them all across the universe sending resources back to the silicon beings, those guys probably have a logistical base that could take on the Imperium, Macross UN spacy, original Protoculture Stellar Republic, Star Trek's Federation, and every Republic and Empire in Star Wars history put together. I imagine it would take several universe's worth of forces to compete with whatever the Creators could bring to bear, assuming they're still around.
>>20209551Never played/read/watched Muv-Luv but this is my impression as well. If the BETA developed the Laser-class because they were getting a little annoyed, why does anyone think that they'll stop there?I feel like if humanity gets any more uppity than they already have, then they'll start bringing actual guns to what is essentially a knife fight instead of mining equipment.
>>20209752I've literally never heard of this before. What the fuck is this, Tomino-Isekai?
>>20215270>If the BETA developed the Laser-class because they were getting a little annoyed, why does anyone think that they'll stop there?I don't think they developed the Laser Class because of humanity, spoilers if you havent played it yet but all the Baters were just mining forms repurposed to deal with what the Superior thought were strange defective two-legged automatons rather than living beings. Like, it was a point throughout the series that the Laser class could never fire at ground targets until the very end, when the Superior used new tactics to attack the protag's home base (thanks to the bond with the 00 Unit, IIRC). So I always thought the laser class were mining drones to be used in caverns and stuff where they would melt down resources or minerals that other baters couldn't reach.
>>20215278It literally is. Aura Warrior Dunbine, you should watch it sometime, it's pretty cool.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn1JAY6M6jU
>>20209807Combat knives post-Frontier have PPB technology to enhance them, I'd say that variable fighters come out on top even in melee.While the general consensus is that humanity will use factory satellites to shit out more valkyries, I'd argue that producing more Ghosts – even the ones we see in Frontier – would be a great idea once NUNG realizes the full scale of the threat.I'm less worried about how they'll handle the war and more about how they'd handle the aftermath. Producing Ghosts in the numbers required to combat the BETA would result in a ludicrous post-war clean up to prevent salvaged/repaired Ghosts from falling into Anti-UN hands.I'd go as far as to argue that Macrossverse would make the BETA pull a cost-benefit analysis very early in their conflict and the BETA would retreat until they had a better option to fight humanity, assuming humanity wasn't pushing for complete galactic genocide.
>>20215278Yes, and pretty much the original anime isekai
>>20209990I'd argue NEXTs do beat TSFs, plus they're fucking huge comparatively. The problem with NEXTs is that they are produced in such small numbers and finding AMS-compatible pilots has always been a crapshoot.Even if every company got together to produce NEXTs, train pilots, and fill gaps in their roster with Irregulars, they would be fucked. If they didn't already destroy their own world and reduce their own production capacity through war and sabotage, I'd argue a unified AC4A Earth would at least keep the BETA invasion at bay. But without space travel, that's all they can do.
>>20215291Now that you mention it, I think in a Macross setting the true threat might not come from the BETA but internecine war. That caused a huge amount of problems in the original ML universe, but in Macrossverse, even if the Spacy's valkyries can easily deal with BETA, if such a threat encouraged all the other "children of protoculture," Zentraedi, anti-UN elements, etc. to rebel, it might be a retread of the wars that destroyed the original Stellar Republic and that would screw humanity.
>>20210785Hear hear. A lot of /m/ threads recently had me disappointed for our hobby, but things are looking up it seems. We've had great thread after great thread this month and I hope we have many more.
>>20212885If the BETA can't FTL then Macross still stomps. Moving that many units is impossible on anything less than multiple dozen millenia-tier time scales. The BETA have been safe only because they've had essentially all that time to expand.
>>20210785I feel like saying "BETA land before Macross" goes against the spirit of the question since that's not really Macross humanity then.As for the bug clearing, worst case scenario NUNS could go full planet-buster mode. I don't think they'd ever be able to eradicate the BETA, but they could at least hold their own territories without much issue
>>20215291>Combat knives post-Frontier have PPB technologyThey already have it in Frontier, so it's some time between 7 and Frontier.
>>20215517Okay, I guess I should have said Frontier and beyond then. What I meant to say is that as of Frontier we have PPB knives.
>>20215291Fighting humanity post-Frontier is all around nasty. Humanity in Macross are pretty decentralised, but as shown in the Frontier movies they can and will put their shit aside to help each other. In a BETA invasion, the colonies would gladly help each other. Shit banned under treaties like Dimension Eaters still exist and their use against the BETA can be easily justified. Even if humanity somehow loses ground, the moment the BETA attacks the planet that the Frontier colonised, a distress cry for help from Ranka or Sheryl would most probably be enough to call the Vajra back into the galaxy to join the war.
>>20215283Nah, Laser Class was explicitly designed to counter aircraft.
>>20215717The wiki says they were miners originally, thats where I got the info from:https://muvluv.fandom.com/wiki/BETA#Laser-Class>Although best known for their adaption to be used against human aerial units, they are primarily used to break down rock and materials. That said it is a wiki so I should take it with a grain of salt...
>>20215717You're probably thinking of the laser -fort- class, which was explicitly designed to counter humanity
>>20215303As a preventive measured the NUN decentralized. This led to a short Civil War with Earth supremacists within UN Spacy aka the Second Unification War in 2050 to 2051. That is why the old kite logo was ditched. Each fleet and planet has control of their military. However this has a side effect of megacorps becoming more powerful politically. Frontier vs Galaxy are fleets founded by two megacorps fighting each other. In Delta it is pretty much much a Megacorp , Xaos, broad and beterinaryo the local cluster being threatened by a Rogue state supplied by a megacorp arms dealer.
>>20215754Bread and butter
I think this argument will go much like the "modern Earth vs a single valkyrie" think tank we had in a previous thread.Like, a "modern" Delta-era variable fighter has essentially unlimited ammunition and an infinite fuel supply provided its flying in-atmosphere. The YF-29's has the strongest and largest amount of airframe ECA of any valkyrie due to its quadruple powerplant setup, while the excess energy generated allows it to deploy PPB no matter what mode its in. It's got MDE spec laser and beam weaponry all over including the hips, the head, the gunpod, and the massive twin barreled cannon on its back.Assuming the BETA are trapped in-atmosphere, all NUNG has to do is authorize mass production of the YF-29 or something even better and allow free use of MDE and reaction weaponry – which they might actually do due to the BETA being a galactic level threat. The YF-29 was designed to counter Vajra and compared to that the only thing the BETA seem to have is insanely superior numbers.I won't admit to knowing how the BETA operate, but I imagine it would take multiple Large Laser-class to outpower the YF-29's PPB, ECA, and ablative beam coating alone. With a proper rotation of older and new generation variable fighters, you could probably clear any BETA hive you come across, no issue.
>>20193432I'm curious how people think the base Eureka Seven universe would do against the BETA?
>>20202509TSFs are pretty basic, they just have a shit ton of ammo, they use like a 76 mm round for machine guns and 120mm round for strong single shots. No speed records or anything to speak of, in the VN they're mostly depicted as hopping around, rather then truly flying. They're very specialized, they're built around having enough ammo the chew through hordes. They aren't designed to fight other mechs, for the most part(foickin America). A VF would cream a TSF in 1v1 combat, but equally so, a VF would not be equipped to fight the BETA. The aliens in Muv Luv have the best anti air you'll ever ask for, and on the ground a vf would basically just be a tsf, but with less ammo. I guess micro missile pods would help a lot, but those are sort of a one and done thing.
>>20216030see >>20215902Frontier/Delta-era valkyries don't need to refuel or rearm. They can last until their engines need to be completely overhauled due to degradation and the apertures on their beam weapons warp from overuse.Hell, I'd argue a single VF-25 with an Armored or Tornado Pack could take out any and everything we saw in the first episode with little issue. And considering that Vajra soldiers shoot beams that can sink frigates and capital ships...and the VF-25 's Armored Pack capacitors produce enough energy to be able to TANK such a thing, I highly doubt Laser-class is an issue.Again, the YF-29's ECA and PPB are equivalent to an Armored VF-25. The YF-29 doesn't have any ammo or endurance issues, can tank Laser-class with auxiliary engine output, and can return fire much, much harder with its beam gunpod in beam grenade mode.You really don't even need missiles to get the job done.
>>20216030Variable fighters are designed as all-regime multi-role vehicles that can combat essentially any number of enemy types. And they've only doubled down since SDF. Macrossverse has fought million ship fleets, rogue AI, space vampires, and a galaxy spanning bug civilization. >A VF would cream a TSF in 1v1 combat, but equally so, a VF would not be equipped to fight the BETA.If you really believe that, you know nothing about Macross. Vajra are also ever-evolving and the VF-25s in Frontier were not just able to put up a fight, but go on the offensive. The BETA we see in Muv-Luv are more numerous than the Vajra, but definitely not even in the same weight class. If variable fighters can take on the monsters that are Vajra and win, I highly doubt that they would be "not equipped to fight BETA".
>>20216100Pretty sure "Project Triangler" and the YF-24 blueprints were distributed to fleets specifically because NUNS knew shit like the vajra would be a threat eventually and letting emigrant fleets build their own fighters would ensure Earth supremacy if they ever decided to completely rebel. Even the VF-171EX was capable of fighting off the vajra, albeit through attrition. Even if somehow the 5th/6th generation of valkyries wasn't enough, I have no doubt NUNG would immediately begin producing anti-BETA variable fighters in droves. If all they need to worry about is laser class why not slap four engines on every single mass produced valkyrie from that point onward? Problem solved.
>>20216030A VF has better weapons than a TSF.
>>20216154The Vajra's existence was known way before Frontier. SDFN-4 Global was taken down by a Vajra attack and its wreck became a nest for a Vajra Semi-Queen.The 25, 27 and 29 are projects that were running at nearly the same time by different parties. On the topic of Laser-class, the average VF could probably outrange the Laser-class' detection and just snipe them with large barrages. And if the BETA are bound to a planet? Even easier. Bomb them from space. We haven't even got to scenarios such as humanity deciding that they don't need the planet and they just deploy the large Dimension Eater to destroy the planet.
>>20216030>on the ground a vf would basically just be a tsf, but with less ammo.VFs in battroid mode are more maneuverable than TSFs. They even have better defense due to the energy conversion armor that receives a boost in battroid mode.A TSF's assault cannon does have more ammo than a VF's gunpod that uses physical rounds but the latter uses more powerful ammunition.
>>20216260>Bomb them from spaceOrbital bombardment by NUNS-affiliated Zentraedi.
>>20215902The reason why the YF-29 is still a YF not a mass produced VF is that it required a large chunk of pure Fold Quartz. All YF-29 we've seen so far are customs. Fold Quartz are either acquired from dead Vajra or a Protoculture ruins.
>>20216260Vajra were discovered around 2040, the same year the Sharon Infident happend. Fold Quartz was discovered in 2043. In 2046 the SDFN-04 Global was was destroy along with the 117th Research Fleet.
>>20216274Well duh. The reason NUNS isn't mass producing them is not just because of the expense, but the fact that the Vajra are no longer a threat for the time being and the YF-29's firepower is quite frankly, excessive for virtually anything else.If they believed their was another, more permanent galactic threat (which I imagine 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 BETA count as), they would funnel all their fold quartz into stripped back YF-29 by finding the minimum amount of fold quartz required to power the Fold Wave System. Hell, considering that even the VF-31 Siegfried uses a stripped down version of the FWS, all they would have to do is ramp up production of higher spec variable fighters that do the same. In the worst case scenario, they can even cannibalize the ISC and other Fold Quartz-heavy components from older valkyries to facilitate this. Minimizing FWS operating requirements would be first and foremost on the drawing board since its the largest leap in valkyrie performance in a long while. IIRC Macross Chronicle states that FWS/FDR constitute 6th generation valkyrie technology while the Siegfried's weaker FWS would be considered "5.5".NUNS has plenty of Fold Quartz required to build things like Macross-class vessels, they just don't allow backroom dealings with the stuff. I'm sure 1E37 BETA is enough of a reason to put worrying about spending it on the back burner. That kind of pressure gives them more of reason to experiment and to work on producing more Fold Quartz than Fold Carbon. If the Vajra also get into fights with the BETA than any Vajra corpse is a good source of the stuff as well.
>>20216327Earth will most likely have some YF-29's of their own, to be only used in dire situations or given to trustworthy people.
>>2021603036mm for their autocannons. Actually pretty weak. Even the very first VFs have laser cannons of their own that're considered pretty weak in-universe, but would absolutely shred the BETA for hours before overheating. The granddaddy of all VF beam weapons, the ROV-20 head-mounted laser cannon, is actually a beam machine gun with a peak power output of 5 MJ that fires 6,000 pulses per minute.And it just gets far more powerful/enduring from there. By the Frontier and Delta eras VFs are fitted with energy weapons that'd just wipe out BETAs like massed Laser classes wipe out conventional aircraft. And these beam weapons are considered weaker backup weapons to boot. Railguns and advanced ammunition (including Dimension Eater gunpod rounds that literally black hole their target) are where it's at gun-wise.
>>20216345What uses railguns outside the turrets on the New Macrosses?
>>20216345To illustrate the power of the VF head laser, in Frontier's last episode, Alto used the head laser of his VF-25 to cut through the bulkheads of the Battle Galaxy to rescue Ranka.
>>20216360The VF-31 has twin 27mm machine railguns on its forearms for dogfighting. They're considered pretty weak in-universe but by ML standards they'd rip BETA apart easily. Also the Macross II parallel world uses railgun gunpods for their main VF.>>20216369And that's the fighter's weakest weapon, a 12.7mm laser machine gun. The power levels in Macross post-2030 get absolutely absurd, and that's before the galaxy-wide superdimensional fold space mind control powers we see in Delta.>1E37 BETA coming for you?>no problem, just mind control/reprogram ALL the BETA in the galaxy into friends and/or inert
>>20212161>guy who uses retard as an insult gets BTFO'd by /m/ mech specs autismPretty interesting illustration with the 750MW comparison. It sounds insane to have that kind of power on a fighter jet's pew pew.
>>20216374> 1E37I assume that's a typo and meant to be 10E37, because 1E37 is not very many at all.
>>20217098It is, in fact, still one.
>>20216327I never actually realized that the VF-31 has fold wave systems on the Delta Platoon models.
but what is the nature of the Fold and pinpoint barriers? can you pierce it with conventional weaponry? Dimensional weaponry? we saw it overload back in SDF but thats possibly the weakness of the barrier system iself
>>20217733Do enough damage and you'll be able to pierce a PPB. The more powerful the engines, the stronger the PPB.
>>20217762I imagine that's just overloading the engine powering the barrier rather than actually piercing the barrier, personally. Didn't the Vajra Queen and Protodeviln have fold barriers capable of standing up to reaction weaponry without issue, and even tanking heavy quantum shots from Macross class ships.
>>20217634It's a way weaker system than the one on the YF-29 in order to keep the costs down. But they do have one.>>20217826Technically the Vajra Queen was manufacturing Fold Faults under her own power. Space is so distorted that it might as well be a shield, since your shots will be either lost to Fold Space or flung so far off target they might as well be useless.Now I'm wondering if there isn't a way to create a Fold Mirror of some sort. One that would essentially curve space in such a way that it would force anything entering to make a complete U-turn.
>>20218091Meanwhile the Sv-262 has a poor man's FWS with the Reheat System that provides a short burst of speed. The Sv-303 a ghost VF has a similar system for its ECA and engine burst. Both produced by Dian Cecht under Epsilon Foundation.
>>20218241Still, my point stands – the current, up-to-date Macrossverse has cheap work arounds for the FWS/FDRS that would make combating the BETA with mass production craft an expensive endeavor, but ultimately doable.When you're facing down a race that could potentially genocide entire colonies and fleets if left to their own devices...well, you go to war. And no expense should be spared. If singing won't reach the BETA than Dimension Eaters and Macross Cannons definitely will. Hell, destroying entire planets infested with BETA only allows them to recover the planet and salvage and feed it to factory satellites. It's a win-win-win.
>>20215414>I feel like saying "BETA land before Macross" goes against the spirit of the question since that's not really Macross humanity then.You're right, but I think we've basically already decided that Macross would wipe the floor with the BETA. Hence why I thought I'd put it out there. In essence my question was, what if Altverse had the Macross land in 1999 like it did in SDF, since Macross humanity would likely have reacted in the same way as Muv Luv humanity. It would certainly give them a technological boost over the BETA, but could someone like Yuuko get her hands on it before the BETA ruin everything on board?
>>20218091I'd say the YF-29's FWS is only stronger because of the sheer amount of fold quart the YF-29 has.The VF-31's FWS would have more common with the YF-30's FWS, which in turn was developed from the YF-29's FWS. In a way, YF-29 outputs a lot from its FWS through brute force via all the fold quartz it has, but the YF-30 and VF-31's FWS would have higher output per volume of fold quartz used in their construction due to the more advanced FWS.
>>20219278The YF-30 is another VF with pure Fold Quartz mined from Protoculture ruins of Ouroboros. The Fold Dimensional Resonance System was specifically designed to breaks Fold Faults and can amplify Song Energy.https://youtu.be/yUiwsQrb-Vk
>>20217595>>20217098Yeah it was a typo.
>>20219605/m/athematics is fun
>>20218936Don't forget the Zentradi NUNS fleets. They are experts at orbital bombardment.
>>20219278>>20219465That's my point. There's no way they wouldn't be able to manufacture more efficient FWS/FDRS valkyries than even the YF-30/VF-31 are – ESPECIALLY when under threat from a force that is practically omnipresent on a galactic scale.Still, the YF-29 surpasses the output per volume breakpoint not just because of sheer quantity, but QUALITY – the YF-29's FWS is built around close to the purest possible carat quality of Fold Quartz. Even if the VF-31's FWS was more efficient, Xaos can't afford 1000ct Fold Quartz chunks. NUNG and the collective resources of all human/protoculture-race colonies in the galaxy CAN though.
>>20222552Imagine mass-produced VF-31s with high quality fold quartz, serving as grunts to spec-ops YF-29s.
>>20222566I'm not going to argue that they'd be able to find 1000ct Fold Quartz for an entire fleet of VF-31s, but I'm also not going to argue they'd even use VF-31s to begin with. Even the Siegfried's were performing beyond the upper limits of what the airframe was designed for which means that the VF-31 itself would not be a candidate for anything else in a BETA war other than replacing all the VF-171s in service.More likely they'd have to come up with a new valkyrie capable of handling it but also one that could be mass produced without such stringent materials requirements. I don't think any base production variable fighter could tank laser-class without an Armored Pack, but the four powerplant ones definitely can. So I'd argue that four engine valkyries are the way of the future in any insane galactic conflict that would require even more offensive and defensive capabilities.Or...just mass produce more Armored Packs, idk. IIRC the VF-25's Armored Pack costs almost as much as another VF-25 so that might not be very feasible in the long run either.
how would the BETA fare against the bydo
>>20222620(((Galaxy))) could try to push a further fold-enhanced version of the Sv-303
>>20222704No thank you. As much as I just finished arguing that we need every resource available, I shudder to think about what General Galaxy would do post-war with all that tech out and about.
>>20211933Couldn't ZAFT just use GENESIS to wipe out the BETA?
>>20223082If getting rid of the BETA was as easy as blasting them from orbit, they would've done so already.
>>20222620They might not even need to tank the Laser-class if they play their cards right.Remember the Siegfried's hologram drones? Have those project their holograms further out, then fly with said holograms activated. The holograms would draw fire from the Laser-class away from the VFs and drones. And we haven't got to sniper tactics. Have a bunch of VF-25Gs pick off the Laser-class clusters from beyond the Laser-class' detection range, then send in the rest after the Lasers are cleared.
>>20223209Yeah...maybe I was getting a bit too bloodthirsty.We're also not considering the AWACS/spotting ability of the radomes on the RVF-25 and VF-31E. The radar on the RVF-25 has a range of like a lightday. That's pretty nutty when used in concert with VF-25Gs.
>>20223082>Couldn't ZAFT just use GENESIS to wipe out the BETA?That's basically a more streamlined Operation Babylon.
>>20223198Not a problem for Macross fleets.
>>20223198Wasn't the main issue with bombardment in Muv Luv mostly cause they used physical weaponry that laser classes made short work of before they hit their target?
>>20223224>RVF-25 radar has a lightday rangeholy crap
>>20223224>>20223530It's not as impressive as you might think. Space is mostly that, empty space. Voyager 1 is about that distance away from Earth and we can still communicate with it.Once you add FTL communications to the mix, things turn easy very fast.
>>20223530It can also identify up to 2,048 targets simultaneously and guide long to medium-range missiles at 128 targets at the same time.
>>20223635yea but I assume a radar is going to detect and report everything within its radius, so its gonna have to detect and process data of a whole shitton bunch of things at once
>>20223635I mean sure it's not SUPER impressive – but it can do so instantaneously and being able to consistently tag BETA an entire solar system away (and potentially guide missiles and bombs there).
Macross overtech is kinda bullshit broken.Or they could just use fold technology and drop fold bombs and just fold the BETA into nothingness.
>>20222653Instant-loss. The Bydo are bullshit.
Are Beta even capable of fighting in the void of space? They just seem like they'd get stuck on every hive-able planetary bodies whilst the spacy bombs them from above outside their attack range>>20203894Well at the very least he'd outlive them.
>>20233952There are semi-canon space beta variants that were unveiled in a doujin by Kouki himself, but they only ever appeared again in the non-canon mobile game since none of the canon stuff has left the Earth sphere. Presuming they do actually exist then the BETA have some space combat capabilities
>>20233952They are miners, so it's not a stretch to assume that variants for asteroid strip mining exist. However considering the potential of the element G you should ask what actual military constructs of the Silicoids can do. Possibly they don't even need a military in a strict sense: with their gravity mastery they can probably cause the collapse of entire solar systems if needed.
>>20223324Pretty much. The reason why G bombs are effective is because once primed they absorb light and radiations, making laser class interception impossible. Any kind of orbital beam or reaction weapons should be effective as well.
>>20234168Why do even their space variants look so goddamn sexual?
>>20236687Imagine looking through high powered cameras attached to a deep space probe and all you see are giant penis legged titty monsters
>>20205084>Zentradi fighting BETAhttps://youtu.be/vIrOHuvMktM?t=57
>>20236687I always wondered why the BETA look so phallic, at least they are really memorable. People mentioned the Bydo up above and one of the things that stuck with me is that weird deformed snake, Dobkeratops, who is also pretty suspicious looking
>>20237939Pretty sure Dobkeratops is a Xenomorph (from Aliens) knockoff.
>>20238194And much like the Xenomorph itself, it is sexual in nature, come on the thing reproduces by forcibly shoving a shaft into someone, while the RType one has a literal penis tongue that fires sperm (In Final).
>>20237939Muv-Luv originated as an eroge.
>>20193432The Macross cannon invalidates the BETA hard. If they have even a single Macross class ship up and running, then they can easily wipe out whole fleets in space from a safe distance. Remember that the Macross cannon hits a wide area, and it blows up massive zentradi capital ships it didn't even HIT. And if the BETA do make planetfall, a Macross cannon shit would be able to eradicate a hive even deep beneath the surface, and is capable of launching that hive-killing attack from as far away as the Moon. Maybe further, but that's the canon range we know it can do for sure. The VFs are no slouch either, but the Macross cannon is the real game changer here. And that is assuming SDF levels of production and tech. If this is post space war 1, Humanity is interplanetary and has Zentradi allies/Zentradi levels of production. The Beta are not winning against the Zentradi, thats for sure. The sky would be full of more battlepods than the laser class could ever hope to shoot down, and its not like you are going to demoralize Zentradi with heavy casualties.
>>20239613SDF era UN Spacy also has the Grand Cannon; which was a huge beam that makes the Colony Laser look piddling, and wiped out hundreds or thousands of Zentradi ships the one time it was used before the Zentradi fleet decimated the planet with ranked fire in the space of a few minutes.
>>20211937Vajra are described as very territorial early in Frontier. The Protoculture also considered Vajra controlled space to be a no-go forbidden zone, so its safe to assume that the Vajra didn't take kindly to their presence either. I could see the Vajra trying to make contact with the Beta because they think its another hivemind, but the Beta won't consider the Vajra to be 'alive' for the same reasons it didn't think humans were real, so conflict is inevitable. And once that happens, the Vajra will stomp the Beta hilariously hard and push them out of their corner of space.
>>20239634Yeah, but humanity didn't have that at the start. It took them like a year to build it.That said... the orbital defenses that the UN had in the first couple episodes could probably hold off the Beta in space for a year. They probably would have enough time to build the Grand Cannon if they had to, and that thing is no joke.Come to think of it, I'm really surprised that Macross never brought it back. You'd think more planets would have a Grand Cannon setup somewhere, as one giant "FUCK OOOOOOFF" defense. Maybe they just decided it wasn't cost effective.
>>20239663>You'd think more planets would have a Grand Cannon setup somewhere, as one giant "FUCK OOOOOOFF" defense.>Maybe they just decided it wasn't cost effective.Probably cheaper to just build Macross-class ships
>>20239663>Yeah, but humanity didn't have that at the start. It took them like a year to build it.I'd honestly forgotten that. That aside, it's not too surprising no colony we see ever has some variation of it for the simple reason that most of the post-SDF TV shows are about fleets looking for a new planet (i.e. Fleet 7 and Fleet 25). Delta is the only TV show about a settled colony, and even then, a lot of it takes place in other parts of the galaxy since Walkure/Delta travel around to fight VAR/Windermere's forces.
>>20239642>the Vajra will stomp the Beta hilariously hard and push them out of their corner of space.Given how widespread the BETA is in the universe, first contact between Vajra and BETA most likely would lead to all Vajra hives across the universe declaring war on the BETA and going around actively killing BETA.
>>20239826> defolds behind Beta Superior> unsheaths organic superdimensional cannon> "SKREEEE" [translator's note: "Nothing personal, kid"]> fires> space folds away
>>20239847It probably is worth keeping in mind that Vajra not only have a universal hive mind with essentially instant transmission of thought across the galaxy, but that they can fold across space in little to no time too, now that you mention it. I don't know whether the BETA (or their controllers) do too, but in the ranks of sci-fi works it's normal to have some time involved in those things, so the likelihood is that they don't at least.
>>20239969>a universal hive mind with essentially instant transmission of thought across the galaxyWorth noting that when Grace connected to the Vajra Queen in the TV series, she(and the other voices in her head) mentioned that they could "feel" planets, stars and galaxies.The Vajra fold network probably functions as a fold radar as well.
>>20240031The NUNS have fold scanners/radar, so its safe to assume that the Vajra do too. Frankly, the Vajra are really high tier space bugs. The only space bugs that I would for sure say are more dangerous than the Vajra are the Space Monsters from Gunbuster, which are absolutely bonkers.
Will the BETA probes Vajra for research purpose?
>>20239826The Vajra were totally fine killing Humans when they thought we were a drone species like them. They were horrified when they learned Humans were individuals who were sapient. They left their planet as compensation. The BETA are all drones so no moral quandary there.
>>20240140>The Vajra were totally fine killing Humans when they thought we were a drone species like them. They were horrified when they learned Humans were individuals who were sapient.I feel like their reaction makes a lot more sense if you consider that they probably still don't have a firm grasp of what an 'individual' is, so their closest approximate concept is 'you are all queens'. So think think that in their war with Humanity, they have killed not thousands of people, but thousands of QUEENS. Which, to the Vajra, is unimaginably horrifying. No wonder they gave us a planet as apology.
>>20240140>They were horrified when they learned Humans were individuals who were sapientReminds me of Babylon 5 when the religious caste of the Minbari realized to their horror that they've been killing humans inhabited by Minbari souls.
>>20240671>>20240780It's also the plot of Ender's Game, where the Buggers ("formics") only realized humans were alive when the humans killed one of the queens, leading them to figure out that humans were the equivalent of billions of queens.
>>20240118Vajra is pretty insane as an alien species concept.>Giant space bugs with a hivemind, sure, pretty normal>They have organic equivalents for guns, missiles, and fucking superdimensional cannons>They casually go FTL>They have the toughest armor, strong enough to no-sell supernukes>And all of that was entirely through them directing their own evolution based on the threats they meet
>>20241703their larvae are also ridiculously fucking adorable for some reason
>>20239663Some of the translation data from Seto and Sketchley indicates the Grand Cannon's firing fucked up Earth electromagnetically in some pretty horrible ways. This combined with cost effectiveness issues and more advanced postwar Overtech means Grand Cannons are generally not considered worth it anymore.
> Two Macross threads at exactly 314 replies within hours of eachWhat a weird coincidence; nice to see more Macross chat lately though, regardless.
>>20242370>Some of the translation data from Seto and Sketchley indicates the Grand Cannon's firing fucked up Earth electromagnetically in some pretty horrible ways.On the one hand, I can totally believe that. On the other hand... how could you tell? Earth got fucking glassed like 2 minutes later, how would you ever know it was the Grand Cannon that fucked things up and not the 6 billion beam bombardment that immediately followed?
>>20203824the fucking Ishkur is a super-robot and probably can go toe to toe with any Valkyries.Exogularity humanity should be ahead of Macross purely because of all the insane physics breaking G-elements obtained.In fact, I think post solar war humanity would probably just park their asses in orbit above BETA infested worlds to intercept all G-element deliveries for free lmao
>>20203824>>20247638What can the Ishkur do, out of interest? I did a quick Google, and the most I came across was this:> The 8th Generation is redefines the role of a TSF to the point that it’s no longer “Surface;” Space is its main field of operation, but the F-47 has been designed to function from Zero-G to 3-G environments. Movement is attained by manipulating gravity, and as F-47’s main role is to function as an envoy to the space fleet aiming to contact the Siliconians, it boasts an impressive long-range particle cannon as its main weapon. Furthermore, the F-47 is able to engage in limited ranged warps and contains regenerating life-support systems, giving the unit ability for independent interstellar travel.Which is cool sounding, but not really on the same level, at least, depending on how limited the warping and regeneration is.