Why are the Zeon forces depicted as Space Nazis when each new Gundam series tries to make them increasingly sympathetic?
Japan is a former axis nation which has always been fascinated with that sort of thing and which is possessed of a not insignificant number of actual historical revisionists actively involved in the government.
>>19636536They aren't just Space Nazis, they're an amalgamation of the Axis Powers. As for why they've been making then increasingly sympathetic, it's because Japan is generally sympathetic towards the Imperial Japanese Army, to the point where their war crimes are censored or not talked about and most members of the army are held in high regard.Only a few people like Tomino aren't willing to give them the "honorable underdog" treatment, because they understand the true atrocity of war.
>>19636536>increasingly sympatheticDo they really though? If anything they look them look more monstrous with each installment I'd think, especially the manga
>>19636546>>19636567I think you should pay more attention to these, there’s no increased sympathy for them, 0081 had a rail gun attempting to launch meteor strikes and unicorn had that amphibious MA committing civilian casualties.
Most westerners have decades of propaganda and media programming telling them who the bad guys are and how they're not allowed to ever be sympathized with and that they definitely aren't us, we're not the bad guys. Then you watch an asian series with a japanese soldier or something and he doesn't spend the whole thing either whipping himself or being righteously hunted down for being part of the evil axis and people don't know how to cope.If america is allowed to make movies about how killing your kids made their soldiers feel sad others are allowed to at least say their own uniforms look pretty cool.
>>19636536are you implying nazis and nazi adjacents should be presented in an inherently bad and evil role?
>>19636536Zeon, and space by association, is the catapult of the next stage of human evolution, the cradle of the future of the species. 'Nazi' is just a name that stuck.
>>19636536contrary to average normal faggots mediayoud watch everyday, nazi are actual humans too
They have literally been depicted with less sympathy in series taking place after the OYW. Half of Unicorn's whole point was making Zeon remnants look like the delusional retards they are.
>>19636795Hey, guess what the original Gundam series does with it's Nazi adjacent faction?
>>19636635It's always easy to spot the nazi cocksucker
>>19636805He is even worse than that. He is, may Tomino forgive me for uttering this phrase, an /int/nigger.
>>19636805>>19636805Spotted the Titansniggers.
mechas are coolnazis are coolwhy can't we all just get along
>>19636833nazis were gay but their aesthetics were top notch so yeah, much like zeeks
>americans explaining 2 bombs was necessary for grater good
>>19636843>harping on about muh nukes when the firebombings during the rest of the war killed nearly twice as many people
>>19636805Excuse you? American soldiers DIED in WW2 for my right to suck on cocks.
>>19636536it's that or make them boring faceless bad guys to be kill in waves.
Hot take: Germany should've gotten nuked
>>19636536>Gundam series tries to make them increasingly sympathetic?Only faggots think Zeon is good. Zeon is among the most vile faction (next only to Zanscare) to ever exist in anime. Motherfucker have independence and right to rule but still proceed to annihilate 1/3rd of human lives just because and the sole reason why UC is fucked up.
>>19636536The leadership were nazis. The rank-and-file and middle managers were mostly just dudes. This was established in the original show and hasn't changed since.
>>19636546a lot of anime is very axis nation esque like AOT I got imperial military vibes ans my weeb friend got mad I compared the story and fighting to Pro Japan axis shit
>>19636743Did we watch the same show?
Because as a franchise ages, the nuances associated with it at the time of creation are lost. Creators inevitably throw themselves into the side they identify more with when working on a franchise that they grew up with as well because of their personal investments as a fan.Writers keep trying to come up with justifications for the evil, like how Tomino's Federation were just corrupt bureaucrats that liked money and private property that were easily swayed by factions that paid them, while everyone else since 2000 has written the Federation as lunatic murder camp raping mad scientist genociders.
>>19637303It also doesn't help that some viewers falsely correlate AU counterparts with the original. I've seen retards legitimately argue that the UC Earth Federation is bad, based on things that were actually done by the CE Earth Alliance or 00's A-Laws.
>>19637292Apparently not. Neither did a lot of people on /m/. It beats you over the fucking head with it, at every single opportunity. Or do you think it's a coincidence that the only people who turn against Full Frontal are the Garancieres crew that spent time with Banagher?>>19637303>lunatic murder camp raping mad scientist genociders.When the actual fuck are you talking about? If anything most post 2000's stuff just ramps up the money grubbing, and in the case of Unicorn throwing in a really dumb conspiracy theory that doesn't even make sense.
>>19637303>Tomino's Federation were just corrupt bureaucrats that liked money and private property that were easily swayed by factions that paid them>The EF forms the Titans that gas millions of innocent civilians after their side actually won the One Year War>Tiny rouge faction of the EF who wanted to actually come up with a peaceful solution were treated like war criminals for being against genocide.>The feds literally sell Sweetwater to a fascist dictator who wants to nuke earth.IDK man, EF doesn't have a great track record either.
>>19637325The post you're responding to really does make me feel like half the userbase on this board doesn't actually watch anything. I genuinely don't know how else someone could say something so outright incorrect.
>>19637323The only zeeks that aren't presented as sympathetic are Full Frontal himself and that blood knight second I forget the name of. Even the psycho in the goofy amphibious MA was a "look at what this hatred has turned this poor kid into" kind of thing.Them being "delusional retards" as you put it doesn't make them unsympathetic.
>>19637325>>The feds literally sell a meteorite to a fascist dictator who wants to meteorite earthFTFY
>>19637334Sweetwater had a nuclear propulsion system which is why he wanted it. His plan, as he says himself, was to cause a nuclear winter.
>>19637323unicorn invented the canon fact that side 3 was occupied by the feds after the OYWboth angelo and zinnerman's whole backstory and motivation is that they experienced the feds doling out feverish revenge-rape-kills during the occupation in some form of space rape of nanking so of course they join the neo zeon flock
>>19637329Of the named Sleeves characters we have>Full Frontal, who is a psychopath LARPing as Char with a hateboner for Earth>Angelo, his second in command that is very much implied to ride his dick both figuratively and literally and will do whatever he says>Zinnerman, who lost his family to violence by the Federation during Side 3's occupation>the one pilot who invites Banagher to his family dinner, who dies selfishly fighting an already lost war, leaving his big family behind to inherit his bitterness>Kirks, who despite the fact that he cares for Loni and doesn't want her to be a monster and for her to survive, goes out in stupid blaze of glory that just pisses her off even more than she already was>Loni, who was born into the remnants essentially and basically just runs on nothing but spite>Marida, who basically just does whatever Zinnerman says because he saved her from the terrible excuse of a life she was living before he saved herI never meant to say that Unicorn makes the Zeek remnants out as unsympathetic, that was poor wording on my part. But there is an incredibly obviois trend among them to be motivated by high and mighty ideals, blinding hatred and scorn for the Federation, or blind loyalty to someone they look up to. It's so on the nose that these remnants are misguided at best and complete monsters at worst. It's probably the closest any Gundam has gotten to outright saying that Zeon is bad, always was bad, and always will be bad since CCA, while also making it clear that anyone still loyal to them is a damn fool. It's makes the cause of Zeon unsympathetic, not the people themselves
>>19637338Sweetwater is the civilian colony that supports Char, and was apparently also one of the AEUG's first base of support.It's Axis that has nuclear engines, and that in itself is not enough to cause a nuclear winter, he stole nukes from Luna II and put them on a spare ship docked to Axis and intended to throw the entire thing at earth.
>>19637346I think that's just because Fukui is a hack who thinks rape as tragic backstory is a masterstroke of fiction. You know, because he is a hack.
>>19637354You are correct, I've been up all night with no sleep so I mixed names up.
>>19637346>>19637357Actually wait, did they mention this being a part of Angelo's backstory in the OVA? I can't quite remember, it's been a while.
>>19637346is this fucking real, it's like their trying to out do pic?
If they’re Nazis, then why do they have twinks, womyn and bloatlords on their side?
>>19637368Is this from an official novel? Why would they do that?
>>19637351>I never meant to say that Unicorn makes the Zeek remnants out as unsympathetic, that was poor wording on my part.Good. That's all I had beef with.
>>19637370>bloatlordsYou ever seen a picture of Hermann Goring?
>>19637359It's definitely in the novels. The animation probably toned it down because while books can be edgy as fuck to attract attention (e.g., Kiki gets raped by fed soldiers in 08th MS Team novel and chooses to commit suicide afterward by biting her tongue) the animated version needs to have PG levels of mature content to ensure widest possible reach to the largest possible audience to make money via ticket sales, home media sales, merchandising, etc.For example, the Loni story arc in the novel is legit fuckstupid. Instead of Loni being the vague Lalah/Four kind of character as shown in the animation, the novels play out differently. The animated version is much less bloody and has none of the religious and racial context of the motivation fukui originally wrote for the Shamblo attacks.https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/Mahdi_GarveyBasically evil rich muslim man builds the Shamblo, indoctrinates his family to assist him in piloting it, and cause tens of thousands of casualties while blowing up a city, hotel, and the Fed command center in the name of revenge against the white man's society.
>>19637374>Why would they do that?b-but the EF are evil too guys.
>>19637378I'm very glad the OVA just made him a Zeon soldier that the Federation killed. It may be more simple but fuck me is the novel motivation stupkd.
>>19637383>but fuck me is the novel motivation stupkd.Yet we see it on our day to day
>>19637351Japanese pop culture loves the tragic nobility of some great hero fighting for a lost cause, separate from the actual value of the cause itself.Just like you can be broadly anti-Shogunate but still think the Shinsengumi are super rad, you can think Zeon is pure evil and also random Zekes have really sad stories that make you cry. It doesn't NECESSARILY have to do with historical revisionism, though of course there's a lot of that in certain Japanese circles.
>>19637370Provisional spacenoids thinking they're part of the club. The bloatlords will be next, having brought the taint of gravity with them to space.
>>19637346>unicorn invented the canon fact that side 3 was occupied by the feds after the OYW>Feddies occupied Zeon after they defeated them in the OYW Wow what an unreasonable sequence of events, how could Fukui do this to us
>>19638053Amazingly, when Japan had a lost cause moment after the Occupation all it amounted to was some pro-Emperor autist embarrassing himself in front of the JSDF calling for a coup, or something to that effect. It was kinda laughable from what I've gathered, nonetheless. Imagine if the Neo IJN ever amounted to anything!
>>19637303>like how Tomino's Federation were just corrupt bureaucrats that liked money and private property that were easily swayed by factions that paid them, while everyone else since 2000 has written the Federation as lunatic murder camp raping mad scientist genociders.In Gaia Gear Tomino wrote the EF as white supremacists, that created the space emigration plan as a way to keep control of non-whites, who also took the first signs of Earth healing as a sign to "reverse emigrate" all the white people they had to send of to space back. I can't imagine any other writer writing the EF in a more evil way.
>>19638045But what about the twinks and women?
>>19638053Really it wasn't even a full scale occupation it was pretty much sending in groups to hunt down high ranking members of the Zabi regimen who were going to ground like the rats they were.We got as far back as the old ass MS Era to get this back in 1990!
>>19637315YouTube comments are their own circle of hell
>>19637370Aryan like HitlerSlim like GoringTall like Goebbels
>>19638216Interesting, was Gaia Gear ever translated?
>>19638325>Height 5' 5" (1.65 m)literally me
>>19636536your premise is that they weren't initially more sympathetic than the Federation.
>>19638406No, best you can hope for is for zeonic to ever finish HF and then pick it up.
>>19638406There was a subtitled audio drama adaptation... somewhere around the internet. I don't know if the subbers ever completed the work, though.
>>19636843The first one was necessarythe 2nd one was in case they thought we were sorry
>>19638045>The bloatlords will be next, having brought the taint of gravity with them to space.anon please stop dropping my Sides
>>19638237Both are potentially valuable assets to society after a good dicking.
>>19636597Did you miss all the /m/ threads about the director of Unicorn saying it wasn't an atrocity because the remnants attacked the families of soldiers and it didn't count?
>>19637323>Apparently not. Neither did a lot of people on /m/. It beats you over the fucking head with it, at every single opportunity. Or do you think it's a coincidence that the only people who turn against Full Frontal are the Garancieres crew that spent time with Banagher?Except Full Frontal is portrayed as literally the most reasonable person Unicorn. Mineva on the other hand goes full retard with "HURR CHAR'S PASSIONATE MADNESS" and the federation is literally an illegitimate organization ruled by elite terrorists that hijacked a democratic government by assassinating the 1st prime minister, along with an entire colony, and then using war to stay in power. Did you even watch Unicorn? It totally delegitimizes the federation as the puppet of a literal deep state
>>19638053>>Feddies occupied Zeon after they defeated them in the OYW>Wow what an unreasonable sequence of events, how could Fukui do this to usZeon was never defeated though. The new government overthrow the Zabi loyalists and signed an armistice. MSG literally never says Zeon was defeated, it says the Republic of Zeon signed a ceasefire with the Federation.
>>19638216Gaia Gear is set a century after Victory, in which the federation we knew from early UC already de facto collapsed and the last remnants of the federation forces died in a suicide battle against Zanscare. Also, Manhunters are the logical end to contolism. A handful of rootless elites who treat Earth like a private garden under the guise of protecting it from humanity, in the same vein as Scirocco and Haman. Char's is another extreme by making the entire planet uninhabitable. Wouldn't be surprised if the government in GG is actually spacenoid in origin.
>>19638668>most reasonable person>the unrepentant nihilist>most reasonableWew lad.
>>19638216>Tomino wrote the EF as white supremacists, that created the space emigration plan as a way to keep control of non-whitesI can kind of see that, except it seems that the whites left Europe too. In ZZ Bright mentions there being jungles in Europe and explains them as having occuring after all the Europeans left. By Victory the area around Dresden looks awfully wooded, while I'm not German myself I don't think the area around Dresden has a bigass forest around it, at least not one to the scale as the one in Victory.I mean don't get me wrong, I like that better from a purely aesthetic point of view, but it seems a little counter productive to move the whites from Europe. Did they move all the Germans, Frenchmen and Italians to Africa after moving all the Africans away? Come to think of it, that would explain the Frenchmen in Africa in ZZ as well as the capital being in Dakar, assuming they replaced the Senegalese with Europeans. I guess the Euros decided it was time to come home after F91.
>>19638682Gaia Gear is set in UC0203, which is 50 years after Victory, not one hundred. Victory is UC0153, not UC0103. That was Hathaway's Flash. Well, roughly Hathaway's Flash is UC0105. Still, it's about a century from that to Gaia Gear.
>>19638866What a lot of people tend to forget is that both before and after the OYW, there were mass migrations of people, both to space and from place to place on Earth, prompted by everything from policy to issues of viable habitability. Hell, the entire reason there were Spacenoids was to relieve population pressure on Earth, whose teeming masses had come close to overwhelming the ecosystem's capacity to sustain them.
>>19636843Well, it was either that or having a costly invasion of the Japanese homeland that would've gotten even more people killed and most likely allowed the Soviets to take the northern part of Japan, causing a massive headache for the US in the Cold War.
>>19637359No, but it was in the novel.
>>19638662For me, sadly yes. May I please have a link to these threads?
>>19639206No but you can have the interviewhttps://pastebin.com/eT7jMp7N>-While 40,000 people died at Dakar in the novels, in the OVA most of the damage done was to buildings because it was a holiday. People living at Torrington were affiliated with the army (soldiers and their family) so there was no declaration of war after that either. Frontal had no intention of starting a war, the attacks were mostly to let the Zeon remnants let off some steam.
>>19639289So in other words >>19638662 is wrong and sucks miles of cock? Because that doesn't sound even remotely like what that anon said.
>>19639289>most of the damage done was to buildings because it was a holidayIs this a joke
>>19636536It's nuanced is why, evil regimes can have sympathetic people and causes. It's not like the Nazis were all evil
>>19639511There's a difference between 'Ramba Ral is a decent guy fighting for Space Hitler' like in 0079 and 'Space Hitler was kind of right and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are real' like in Unicorn.
>>19638053The Feds occupying and confiscating all of Zeon's remaining military bases is nothing new. They occupied Solomon in the original series and we know from Zeta they took over A Baoa Qu for themselves as well.What's new is having soldiers occupy the colony cylinders and raping the shit out of civilians. Most databooks never mentioned a post-war occupation, hell some of them even went in the opposite direction and claimed that the Feds were too exhausted following A Baoa Qu and the Zeeks still had some minor reserve forces left stationed in the colonies (probably the oldest, youngest, and most injured that were considered even unsuitable just for reinforcing A Baoa Qu) that the Feds didn't want to send troops in to Side 3 and complicate things, and even though Zeon lost the war, it was not an unconditional surrender on their part.https://web.archive.org/web/20191219121414/http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/archive/gundamcentury.html>Despite the superior power of the Federation Forces, the ending of the Zeon-Federation war left it unclear who was victorious.>Having lost the Zabi family line and thus all their supreme leaders, the Zeon forces hoped to avoid an anticipated second offensive by the Federation Forces, who had so quickly achieved a balance of arms and the accompanying fighting strength. Thus they approached the Federation Forces via Side 6 to seek a ceasefire.>Because many of the Federation Forces leaders who remained on Earth considered the fleets they retained there to be a tool for self-preservation, they approved and accepted this proposal with remarkable speed.
>>19639977New writers are definitely riding on anti-american sentiment. Pretty soon we'll be hearing THE SOLAR SYSTEM WAS INHUMANE, ZEON WAS READY TO SURRENDER BUT THE FEDERATION FORCED ZEON TO CONTINUE BY USING CRUEL WEAPONS
>>19639992You know the Japanese of all people using evil soldiers raping poor innocent as an easy to create sympathy is really fucking ironic.
>>19639992There's a manga called Legend of the Universal Century Heroes that makes Zeon out to be noble heroes and Feds as bottom-feeding scum.In the first few chapters, the Feds are seen using colonies as cover. A Zeon pilot thinks they're bastards for doing such a thing, when the operation the Zeeks are carrying out at that very moment is about kidnapping a entire colony cylinder full of civilians to hurl at the Earth again. Presumably while the civilians are still inside.
>>19640028oh for fucks sakezeon gasses everybody in the cylinder before dumping it on earth, people bitchzeon doesnt gas everybody in the cylinder before dumping it on earth, people bitchmake up your fucking mind
>>19636795>>19636805>>19636536>>19637086>>19637303>>19637285>>19637323>>19637346>>19639992I don't get zoomers who whine endlessly about this while watching Gundam. Gundam isn't anti nor pro nazi. It's always been anti-totalitarianism and anti-corruption.Titans were able to do what they did because they believed that anyone linked to space nazis deserved to be treated in a sadistic manner without any hearing, and that any level of force was okay.
>>19637285AOT creator loves nazis and the end of the series has a pro-eugenics message
>>19640058Tomino is fine, the secondary writers are fucking morons.
>>19640067The genocidal guy literally loses lol
>>19640067AoT was always naziesque, the problem is new writers trying to redefine the gundam universe Tomino and original Sunrise staff laid out
>>19640068This guy gets it.
>>19640068It's consistent because the protagonists of gundam were always people empathetic (not sympathetic, but empathetic) to their enemies; be it Amuro, Kamille, Judau, and Uso. People claim that newtype abilities are silly, but I was impressed because the protagonists become incredibly powerful from fully understanding their enemy where their came from (Amuro with Lalah, Kamille when he blamed the leadership instead of Jerid for killing his parents, etc) while using their power responsibly. They never supported their enemies at all, but they weren't excessively cruel towards them and rightfully blamed the leadership for it. An important aspect that people miss is that the protagonists always question their leaders to make the correct decision.In contrast, the antagonists were sadistic/apathetic to others while blindly following orders. Jerid was a concrete example. In Unicorn, it's the neo zeon remnants who lose because they wanted to inflict the cruelty on others for their tragic upbringing.Nowadays, that nuance is lost on zoomers. I blame video essays.
>>19640156Oh please, it's more because social media has twisted people into psyhcotic retards who just want to murder people that disagree with them. Nuance is lost on everyone now.
>>19639072Imagine if Japan was split like Korea and we had to deal with Best Japan.
>>19640156Except those characterizations also generally applied to the federation as well. That's why the AEUG was secretly an EFSF faction like the Titans. And this is a consistent portrayal. Colony fleets decide to take action against Char for the final battle despite fears of revolts back home. The Frontier garrison literally fights to the last man to stop a genocide, and the reinforcement fleets fight a futile battle against the Rafflesia. Admiral Mubarak and his fleet refuse to just roll over and die, so they fight to the death against the Angel Halo and motorad fleet. Tomino always portrayed the federation as an inefficient bureaucracy full of good people willing to make the ultimate sacrifice, despite some carelessness, partly because it's made up of the very people that factions like Zeon, the Titans, Neo-Zeon, etc are trying to kill. It's weighed down by corrupt and inefficient leaders, but the body is greater than the head. Fukui and new writers turned it on its head and now the federation is just full of bootlicking rapists who blindly serve a Qanon-style deep state that literally controls the world from the shadows and secretly overthrew the first elected PM, and turned the federation into a husk to serve the interests of the people who killed the PM. The only decent people left in the federation in Unicorn are Bright and his Londo Bell cohorts, which totally misses the point of CCA's ending, F91, and Victory.
>>19640207Fukui's got this really weird interpretation of late-UC that involves the EF turning into cartoon villains and Newtypes being genocided at some point. It's like he can't into the idea of a government falling apart slowly over time or something.
>>19640207>That's why the AEUG was secretly an EFSF faction like the Titans.Nah, AEUG was a mix of former Zeon and EF. That's why they were targeted by Titans in the first place.The Titans were pure EF, but they were a totalitarian branch of it who abused their power because they were instructed treat their opposition as a irredeemable evil.>Fukui and new writers turned it on its head and now the federation is just full of bootlicking rapists who blindly serve a Qanon-style deep stateI have strong feeling that it's not really influenced by WWII like early UC was, but by the War on Terror. You'll notice plenty of parallels if you're familiar with it.
>>19640265>Nah, AEUG was a mix of former Zeon and EF. That's why they were targeted by Titans in the first place.No, they weren't. And what you're saying is hardly even true, the AEUG was on the offensive in the first part of Zeta. Char and his wingmen had to infiltrate under false federation identities to join the AEUG when the AEUG was formed by Blex.AEUG having any other Zeon members is part of the revisionism by new writers, almost entirely in manga, not even Fukui will touch it. It was always a federation organization and dialogue from the show reiterates that point. Even the Titans are aware it's a splinter faction of the main federation forces, rank and file>The Titans were pure EFSo was the AEUG. And unlike the Titans its members came from the mainstay federation. Whereas Titans like Emma and Jerid were new members who came straight out of academies and had no practical experience at the start of Zeta.
>>19640301>AEUG having any other Zeon members is part of the revisionism by new writersI always suspected the 'addition' of Matsunaga into the AEUG was bunk, especially given a pilot of his caliber would have flown rings around Quattro.
>>19639579You're right. When watching Ramba Ral, one wonders "why does this seemingly decent person support a regime that wiped out 4 Sides unilaterally and killed billions of people?" without getting an answer, and when watching the other you actually get the answer. Since Unicorn illustrates why people were drawn to Zeon. It doesn't justify it; just presents it as a motivation. Banagher outright rejects Zeon multiple times. Including in that episode. The person who talked about it also turned on Zeon not long afterwards, and helped Banagher combat them. I'm not sure how you're getting "the author wants us to think Zeon were right all along" from that.
>>19640177>communist north japanBASED
>>19639977> Tomino always portrayed the federation as an inefficient bureaucracy full of good people willing to make the ultimate sacrificeNot really. The Frontier fleet example you mentioned includes an officer trying to use civilians as shields against attack for instance. There was also only one fleet that arrived to help Londo Bell in the finale of Char's Counterattack, despite multiple Sides being stated to have held back support. Meaning multiple Federation fleets weren't willing to help. There's also the soldiers stationed at Amuro's hometown harrassing citizens for no reason. Tomino didn't show any one faction (which includes Federation rank and file) as unilaterally good or evil.> Fukui and new writers turned it on its head and now the federation is just full of bootlicking rapistsYou mean bootlicking rapists like Daguza and Otto? Daguza, who sacrified his life to serve as a distraction against the Sinanju, firing a rocket at it's main camera? Or Otto, who was helpful and supportive to everyone throughout Unicorn, including Zinnerman, after Zinnerman started turning against Frontal? Or how about noted rapist bootlicker Iago in NT, who repeatedly tried to buoy Jona despite recognizing he wasn't a great pilot, and in the end begged Jona to kill him to save himself. What a bunch of selfish shits Fukui is writing the Federation rank and file as, eh?> But the Federation are weevil in Fukui's works.Yes, which is identical to how Tomino wrote them. Mostly decent rank and file, but lead by selfish assholes more concerned with their own power or leisure than and using war as a game to advance their agenda. In fact, that's mostly how he wrote any side. Including Zeon.
>>19640038Maybe DON'T dump the colony on earth? Isn't that an idea?
>>19640353That's why Matsunaga is in Karaba rather than the AEUG. Far smaller chance that he would have actually bumped into Quattro.
>>19640058>>19640156It's most likely so that western media has always framed "da nyatzis" as the bad guys of ww2, irrespective of what branch of the armed forces they belonged to, or whether "da nyatzis" were even fucking soldiers. I can understand saying this about the Waffen-SS as a whole, and for them you could make a better argument towards that, but even THEN that isn't fucking true for the entire organization (see Nordland and the Baltic units). Westerners have been taught to percive anyone who uses a German-esque aesthetic as the bad guy and they see little nuance in Gundam because of that.Zeon are the bad guys btw, Earth #1.It's also worth pointing out that Amuro gets mostly carried by his machine before he starts to understand the people he's fighting against. This trend reverses with Ramba and only escalates as the OYW goes on, culminating in Amuro carrying the Gundam. This carrying of the Gundam coincides with him meeting Lalah, as well. Before that point and before meeting Ramba, Amuro goes on a fucking rampage murdering retreating Zeeks. It's one of the more interesting moments of the series and arguably pulled off what Thunderbolt 1 was trying to do years later much better than Thunderbolt 1 did.I say this because I found myself going from cheering on Amuro to being a little shook watching a 15 year old go totally berserk and hunt down enemies fleeing in terror.While watching Thunderbolt 1 I just got the impression that the creators really really really REALLY wanted me to understand how terrible war is; as if I needed to hear teenagers screaming at the top of their lungs while they're being killed (which is fucking dumb anyway since the feddies mostly use officers as pilots anyway but nevermind that) to understand that war is bad.I think I gleamed "war is bad and total, unrestricted warfare is God-awful" from the colony gassings, colony drops and idealists on both sides getting used and abused by their respective governments in 0079.
>>19640429I don't understand.
>>19640550> This trend reverses with RambaNot really. It starts almost immediately, because by episode 3 or 4 Amuro is killing grunts with his off-hand while engaged in combat while Char, and starting to evade fire after episode 6. We're also told in episode 7 that Amuro has put in 55 hours of training in the space of about a week or so. His efforts to become a better pilot that isn't as reliable on his machine step up with Ramba, but they do not start with him. It also starts to ramp up almost immediately upon battling Ramba, rather than happening because he had met Ramba and understood him. Since Amuro uses a captured Zaku to simulate the performance of the Gouf before running away from the White Base and meeting Ramba in person. We also get a very tangible sign Amuro has actually become a proficient pilot in tune with the Gundam in their final mobile suit duel, since despite Ramba shouting that Amuro only won because of the Gundam, Amuro actually won because he out-maneuvered Ramba and punished him for a wild, wide sword swing.> This carrying of the Gundam coincides with him meeting Lalah, as well.It kind of depends on what you think signifies him carrying the Gundam. The only real obvious sign of it is the Gundam's joints wearing out from the speed of Amuro's reactions, but that doesn't actually happen until Texas colony; which is a few episodes after he first meets Lalah. I would personally say it happened in or after Jaburo, because he's matching Char in Jaburo when they fight, and even being inventive in the combat (hiding behind the shield to obscure his profile and hide the fact he hasn't been damaged for instance), and Char is successful in getting away not because Amuro is a bad pilot, but because Char has squadmates to throw under the bus and the Z'Gok can go places the Gundam can't.
> Before that point and before meeting Ramba, Amuro goes on a fucking rampage murdering retreating Zeeks.You say that like it was recent, but it happened in episode 6 and while Amuro first fights Ramba in episode 12, they don't properly start the Ramba Ral arc until episode 16. Which is 10 episodes later, during which time Amuro has already changed significantly. He's even changed a good deal in the time between episode 6 and episode 12, honestly, since that interval covers Amuro's real reaction to the stress of conflict. Which basically starts with episode 6 and culminates in the first fight against Ramba in episode 12. Amuro chases the retreating Zeon troops because he's the one scared, where we never see any Zeon troops faces to get an impression of their emotional state beyond the fact they're retreating. Retreating in an orderly manner while still firing on Amuro and his friends, at that. Amuro is scared because he was knocked out for a few seconds after being hit repeatedly by Zeon attacks; showing him that he's actually vulnerable despite being in the Gundam.After which he starts spending time in his room examining the Gundam while having trouble sleeping, and not eating properly. We also get Amuro refusing to pilot and the infamous Bright Slap, Amuro being chilled because Icelina swears vengeance on him before dying despite not knowing him and then, finally, Amuro suffering very visible battle fatigue that Ryu calls out, while Ryu leads an almost sleep-walking Amuro to the Gundam and has to strap him in because Amuro is only half-aware of what's going on. Which he does because Bright orders it, even though both of them recognize that Amuro isn't really in a fit state to pilot. They feel they have no choice since they're under attack though, and just hope Amuro comes to his senses.
Which he does when Ramba wraps the heat rod around the Gundam's bazooka and destroys it and nearly the Gundam, before Amuro realizes the danger and evades at the last second. After which Amuro looks to become less reliant on the Gundam again, even though he was already taking steps a while before that point.> I gleamed "war is bad and total, unrestricted warfare is God-awful" from the colony gassings, colony drops and idealists on both sides getting used and abused by their respective governments in 0079.You definitely didn't glean it from colony gassings in 0079, because they're not actually a part of 0079. The colony drop is a single recurring mention by the narrator for the first 10 or so episodes too, and never comes up again after that. Which is to say it's not even part of the actual story; just the opening narrations. Not one character in the show mentions it in any regard. I'm not even sure I'd count the last one, for that matter, since I don't recall any notably idealistic characters on either side. Naïve perhaps, but not idealistic.
>>19640550I don't know how they managed to watch Gundam in the first place. I thought that they would endlessly complain that airtime was given to a bad guy faction
>>19640550> While watching Thunderbolt 1 I just got the impression that the creators really really really REALLY wanted me to understand how terrible war is; as if I needed to hear teenagers screaming at the top of their lungs while they're being killed (which is fucking dumb anyway since the feddies mostly use officers as pilots anyway but nevermind that) to understand that war is bad.That's actually an interesting twist, though never specified. The child-soldiers, in this case, are volunteers: They hail from the same colony. The Moore brotherhood is fighting to reclaim their colony, so everyone fighting in that region is from their abandoned home. It's like the Polish (for example) trying to take back Poland mostly by themselves. With the kids being analogous to the Grey Ranks, I guess.
>>19640620It's certainly possible that my memory of 0079 is messed up in certain places and I'm willing to conscede that. So far as I remember though, Amuro really doesn't seem to understand the Zeeks before meeting Ramba and it doesn't seem like his skill as a pilot is really pushing the Gundam to it's limits i.e. carrying it, it certainly seems like his skills and the power of the Gundam are roughly matched by Odessa, but only noticeably surpassed by about the time he meets Lalah.I instantly disliked Zeon because of the colony drop too, that stuck with me for the remainder of the series. While it wasn't the most impactful thing ever, it did get me thinking. Considering that people like Dozle and Ramba were probably involved in Operation British and neither of them came off as particularly evil, it certainly seems like Zeon used them and people like them to their own ends. Dozle going out by trying to kill the Gundam with a fucking rifle certainly came off as a bit idealistic to be sure. The dying cries of Zeeks being to their mothers or someone they loved or whatever certainly made it seem like they were idealists dragged into a war made unwinable by Kycillia and M'quve. Kycilia's bodyguard also came off as a bit of an idealist. I'm unsure if he wanted to fuck her and that was his reason for his loyalty, but since he'd doubtlessly known that she was banging Johnny Ridden that comes into question. It could just be that that's later material effecting my view of 0079.It seemed to me that Tomino was trying to tell me that war is bad; he pulled this off by making good people to awful things and then die for assholes who had no issue with them taking a bullet (or beam) in their place. Alternatively, he made good people die for a corrupt system.My memory of the gassed colonies in 0079 might just be me thinking of Texas and Colony 30, in hindsight I'm not sure if Texas was gassed or not but I certainly think I thought so back when I watched 0079.
>>19640419>The Frontier fleet example you mentioned includes an officer trying to use civilians as shields against attack for instanceAnd? The same guy led the ground resistance against MS using a mounted machine gun to shoot gas silos to take down MS later on in the movie. He's also from the army, the ground forces of that colony, not the space forces so he was probably a local. A desperate situation called for extreme measures, he wasn't any less willing to die to protect Frontier.>There was also only one fleet that arrived to help Londo Bell in the finale of Char's CounterattackWrong, actually watch the movie. Multiple fleets converge towards Axis before the final battle starts and when Chan dies we see them launching Jegans, saying not to worry about coming back, the implication is obvious. Then at the end the 88th fleet's GM IIIs arrive from around the earth to help push Axis back. Multiple fleets were fighting and pushing back Axis.>You mean bootlicking rapists like Daguza and OttoRead what I said retard about Bright and LB retard. LB is portrayed as almost an entirely separate faction from the federation, emphasizing on the autonomous nature mentioned in CCA. >Yes, which is identical to how Tomino wrote themExcept it's not.>Mostly decent rank and fileExcept they're not. Because now they're not part of an incompetent bureaucracy. They're willing servants of a literal evil organization>using war as a game to advance their agendaWhich isn't how Tomino wrote the federation. Zeon and its offshoots were the evil of authoritarianism. The federation leadership represented the banality of evil, careless and inefficient, often unwilling to do the right thing until the membership did it on its own.
>>19640028>Legend of the Universal Century Heroes
>>19636824Fuck you spacenigger, the Titans are our greatest allies.
>>19641028>leader is a literal (((Jovian)))I don't think so spacejuden
>>19641037That's their second leader, the original head was a closeted zeek sympathiser, take your pick as to which one is worse and more embarrassing
>>19641037The Jovians are far more trustworthy than any Zeek cocksuckers.
>>19636536>Why are the Zeon forces depicted as Space Nazisacts of genocide and "third reich" type ideology. "We need to own everything in space because we're spacenoids... and um, that means it's ours :^)">when each new Gundam series tries to make them increasingly sympathetic?they're still depicted as space nazis because (admittedly) it's a sick aesthetic, and that makes bank. The writers seem to love them too, I guess they got the wrong idea about Newtypes? (Ironic since the way Tomino wrote Newtypes revealed Zeon to be wrong) You can tell in Unicorn especially; during the battle of Torrington the Fed pilots just got stomped by these old piece of shit machines until the Byarlant barges in like a superhero. Also there is a sniper flying around in a giant airship that doesn't get shot down, because??? "oh btw that's a custom unit you should buy it :)))"Zeon cranks out cash
>>19641037>>19641047>>19641048Literaly dogshit >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (((Lunarians))) > Zeeks > JoviansStay in outer space and don't come back to Mother Earth, we don't want you here.
The Zeeks are actually the SJWs of the Gundam universe.
>>19640843> Amuro really doesn't seem to understand the Zeeks before meeting RambaI don't think I'd ever say he understood Zeon at all, to be honest. He only interacted with Ramba for a few minutes total, most of which was sitting in a bar watching him talk to his men. He realized they were human perhaps, but I don't think that's the same thing as saying he understood them. And he probably understood that before Ramba just because Icelina's final words haunted him so much, if nothing else.> it doesn't seem like his skill as a pilot is really pushing the Gundam to it's limits i.e. carrying itI wouldn't say that he was carrying the Gundam until at or after Jaburo, no, but I don't think it was carrying him beyond the first few episodes either. It was just a symbiotic relationship from about episode 10 (maybe before it) until episode ~30.> Considering that people like Dozle and Ramba were probably involved in Operation British and neither of them came off as particularly evil, it certainly seems like Zeon used them and people like them to their own ends.I think maybe I just came away with the opposite thought in that I wondered why the seemingly good Ramba would support the Zabis after Operation British, and presumed that there must be more to Dozle than we see; that he might be kind to his men, but that he has no problem treating anyone else as an other. I think it's implied that Zeon utilize conscription in 0079 too, and I explain away Ramba's support as him being forced to do fight for Zeon, but wanting to do so in his own way. Mostly I think it's maybe a difference in how we consider idealism. I'm just taking it literally as someone with an ideal, and would consider the people you talking about more naïve or innocent rather than idealistic.> Kycilia's bodyguardWho? The guy with her at A Baoa Qu? I think he was just her second in command, rather than a bodyguard, if that's who you mean..
> It seemed to me that Tomino was trying to tell me that war is badI think that's a pithy summation of what he was saying, but I wouldn't ever describe it as that personally. I think he was saying that war is a bad solution to problems, but is sometimes the only solution regardless and that more than anything war is just a way for the rich and elite to play out their desires that ignores human cost because it basically doesn't affect them and that the people fighting the war are just cogs in a machine to them. Cogs that are pretty much all ground down and destroyed as the war goes on. That wars tend to be fought by people (good, bad and indifferent), but led by jerks who can't be arsed to try a better solution because war is easy and good enough when it doesn't touch them.> TexasI don't think it's ever clarified in the show what happened to Texas, but nothing in the show ever alludes to gassing to have it be the likely explanation regardless. Supplementary material says that the mirrors at Texas were damaged in the fighting, and that it received an over-abundance of sun because of it. Which eventually made it arid and desert as the war ground on while the colony was unattended
>>19640960> And?And those are examples of the Federation not being full of "good people".> Wrong, actually watch the movie.I'd say the same to you. Multiple fleets are mentioned to be observing but not joining because of fear of riots, but only one joins. Which is the 88th Fleet that Chan's ghost contacts. That is one fleet, not three as you seem to think.> Read what I said retardI did. Daguza and Igao are not part of Londo Bell. The Federation forces we see in Narrative are just general Federation forces, and not anything to do with Londo Bell, even if you want to consider ECOAS part of Londo Bell for some reason.> They're willing servants of a literal evil organizationThe entire point is that most of the Federation isn't aware of what happened at the beginning of the Federation, and only a few people at the top know about it. They're not even doing anything evil anymore, and that was only the actions of some people that founded it a century ago. Most people in the Federation leadership now are just corrupt or incompetent. Just like they've always been.> Which isn't how Tomino wrote the federation.It absolutely was. The Federation guys we see in Jaburo are sitting there comfortable as Zeon bombs it daily, and think of the war as a nuisance before sending the White Base out as a distraction. They even call the White Base an annoying thorn in their side because it keeps being important. In Zeta they were content to let the Titans exercise extreme authority until it threatened them personally etc.
>>19641151>And those are examples of the Federation not being full of "good people".Good people can resort to extremes when they're trying to defend their homeland from autocratic dictators, who are also plotting a genocide. "Good" doesn't mean saintly. >Which is the 88th Fleet that Chan's ghost contactsNo. It's not. >Multiple fleets are mentioned to be observing but not joining because of fear of riots, but only one joinsYou're talking about two entirely different scenes from the movie. Earlier it's mentioned no one is doing anything because they're scared of riots. Later before the final battle they pick up fleet movements from the colonies moving towards Axis and when Chan dies we see them launch Jegans on sleds. The 88th fleet is an entirely different fleet that only launches GM IIIs. Londo Bell wasn't the only fleet fighting Neo Zeon.>I did. Daguza and Igao are not part of Londo Bell. The Federation forces we see in Narrative are just general Federation forces, and not anything to do with Londo Bell, even if you want to consider ECOAS part of Londo Bell for some reason.Daguza is attached to LB, take that as you will, and it's clear he changes from his interaction with Banagher, which isn't the point. That's like saying Zeon is good because Aina changed her mind after meeting Shiro.>NarrativeI don't know why you keep bringing it up when fighting NZ and hunting Phenex were part of the mission. The distinction I'm making isn't literally angels vs devils. Tomino's federation is a reactionary force, they fight back against people trying to oppress people, that literally makes them good guys, not saints. Spacenoids and titans are proactively trying to oppress and kill for the sake of seizing power, that makes them bad guys.
>>19641116Does Mars ever get any attention in UC? Are there any orbital colonies in the Marsphere?
>>19641151>The entire point is that most of the Federation isn't aware of what happened at the beginning of the Federation, and only a few people at the top know about it. They're not even doing anything evil anymore, and that was only the actions of some people that founded it a century ago. Most people in the Federation leadership now are just corrupt or incompetent. Just like they've always been.Which is totally irrelevant to the viewer, because we have knowledge that the federation is basically just another secret dictatorship that was hijacked by a handful of baddies and warmongers from Anaheim. >It absolutely was.No it wasn't. Tomino wrote it as a reactionary force, a resistance. It's effectively an analogy for the unified human good that manifests more clearly in CCA's ending. It's a global democratic organization that, yes has shitty and useless leaders, but is an amalgamation of humanity across the earth sphere. That's why the setting for MSG has Zeon be responsible for most of the atrocities and early writers/staff expanded on it by making Zeon responsible for destroying most of the sides, with scant evidence the federation did anything to harm spacenoids. But with new writers you get shit like >>19640028 and >>19637346>The Federation guys we see in Jaburo are sitting there comfortable as Zeon bombs it daily, and think of the war as a nuisance before sending the White Base out as a distraction. They even call the White Base an annoying thorn in their side because it keeps being importantAre you totally ignoring the fact that they were building up an army of MS and new space fleet (after the last one was virtually wiped out) in Jaburo, in secrecy? Yes, the white base is a nuisance for a group in hiding, because the White Base is a top secret ship trying to go to their top secret base. The reason Zeon was carpet bombing was because Jaburo was hidden and Char was the first one to ever find the real entrance. Being pragmatic doesn't make them evil
>>19641151>In Zeta they were content to let the Titans exercise extreme authority until it threatened them personally etc.And other feddies rose up to resist it. The public leader of the AEUG was even a high ranking officer. Zeta makes it clear the AEUG is widely supported by the federation forces and that there are even active AEUG members still in the federation, whom Bask says they need to weed out.
>>19641219There's Mars Zeon, which was Zeon remnants that fled there after the war, I think some Titans remnants might've fled there too after Zeta. The only thing that they've been involved with was the F91 prequel manga where they steal a Gundam and get their shit pushed in by a single feddie battleship
>>19641144>the rich and elite to play out their desiresDepends. When the federation brass refuse to take a side in Zeta, ZZ, CCA, F91, Victory they're portrayed as evil. It's more obvious in Zeta because they gave the Titans authority, but it's later put into question after Dakar. But in ZZ Judau openly gets mad at the brass who say "who cares, let haman do what she wants, maybe a population culling will be good". In CCA Bright and Amuro have a similar attitude because the federation is being naive and refusing to fight Char. F91, the brass are on vacation and not prioritizing the defense of the Frontier side and called out by the cast for it. Victory, Mubarak basically broke off from the leadership and gathered his own fleet of willing combatants. It's pretty clear that in UC, doing nothing is just as evil as fighting for a bad cause. If anything, Tomino encourages war if it means resisting evil.
>>19641219>>19641251>I think some Titans remnants might've fled there too after ZetaYou are entirely correct and they joined up with Zeeks of all people. They called it "ReZeon" and Monsha was a member for some fucking reason. My guess is that he committed too many warcrimes and thought that hanging out with spacenoids all day was better than hanging.I know that Mars Zeon actually lived on Mars in a mountain, which isn't implausible at all. The main issue with building a colony group at Mars' Lagraingian points is that Mars' magnetic field is not at all comperable to that of Earth, i.e., all the colonists get cancer and the whole thing turns into Mutant Newtype hell.I wonder though, Venus is far more similar to Earth, could it be possible for whichever Zeek group to head over there and build colony groupings at Venus' Lagranigian points? If so, why didn't anybody think of that before?
>>19641960>all the colonists get cancer and the whole thing turns into Mutant Newtype hellWait, AGE wasn't full of shit on that front?
>>19641210> Good people can resort to extremes when they're trying to defend their homeland from autocratic dictators, who are also plotting a genocide. "Good" doesn't mean saintly.You don't need to be a saint to not use strangers as a shield from attack. Which is ignoring that the soldiers in Amuro's hometown weren't even in an extreme at the time. You're also not good if you're only nice when it's easy, and resort to bad things as soon as things get tough. You might as well have typed "doing bad things doesn't make you a bad person".> Earlier it's mentioned no one is doing anything because they're scared of riots.It's established just over an hour into the movie that the colony fleets aren't helping Londo Bell because they're afraid of rioting, and then about an hour and a half in that Federation fleets are mobilizing; differentiating the normal Federation fleets and colony fleets. After which, Chen's ghost visit one fleet of ships we never see near any kind of colony (and so are likely to be the regular Federation fleet) who launch mobile suits in sleds and when more suits show up they're identified as the Federation's 88th fleet. Not any kind of colony fleet; just the 88th fleet. Fleet, as in singular. At no point are we ever shown multiple fleets at Axis. Which means that the colony fleets never helped.> Daguza is attached to LBDaguza is part of ECOAS, who are a seperate force from Londo Bell. They are working together in this instance because ECOAS are much more suited to things like infiltration, but they are not one and the same. It's also clear that while Daguza was influenced by Banagher, that he was a good person before they met too. And yes, I would say Aina was a good person before she met Shiro. Naive and/or gullibe perhaps, but good all the same.
> The distinction I'm making isn't literally angels vs devils.Yeah, I definitely got the vibe that you weren't calling the Fukui's depiction of Federation personnel devils when you characterized them as bootlicking rapists.> Tomino's federation is a reactionary forceYeah, like the White Base. Wait, they probably don't count because "main characters". And Revil probably doesn't count for some reason too. Or AEUG, because "they left the Federation to rebel against it". And Londo Bell doesn't count for reasons too, I'm sure. But yes, other than the parts that are not reactiony, the Federation is reactionary. Sure. I'm assuming you don't mean "the Federation command" here by the way, beacuse if you did, then complaining about Unicorn or NT would make no sense since it's only smaller forces within the Federation amred forces that are proactive in either and not the command structure.> Spacenoids and Titans are proactively trying to oppress and kill for the sake of seizing powerYou generally don't need to be proactive about seizing power when you actively have that power already. You can only really be reactive against people trying to take it at that point. The Federation still had proactive elements that were seeking out problems (such as Londo Bell) or trying to gain more power (the Titans) regardless though.
> Which is totally irrelevant to the viewerIt is not totally irrelevant to me, and last I checked I was a viewer too. Which I'm happy to do because I'm happy to distinguish between "guys who started the Federation", "guys at the top" and "the majority of people within the Federation".> That's why the setting for MSG has Zeon be responsible for most of the atrocities and early writers/staff expanded on it by making Zeon responsible for destroying most of the sidesTomino notes that Zeon unilaterally attacked and destroyed the other Sides in his notes for Gundam before anyone else ever even knew that the show existed as an idea in his mind. They also do so in the novels he wrote after the show was done. It became a thing in supplementary material because writers didn't feel it clear enough in the show. As is, there is still more than scant evidence given that the opening narration of the first dozen episodes show Zeon ships shooting at undefended colonies before a damaged Federation ship drifts into view and explodes, then cuts to Zaku II's guarding a colony as it enters the atmosphere. The implication is pretty clear that Zeon did a bad thing to the colonies.> Are you totally ignoring the fact that they were building up an army of MS and new space fleet?No, I'm just not taking it as justification for the attitude or behaviour. They are annoyed by the White Base, dismissive of the threat of Zeon, seem more concerned about talking to Bright and Mirai about personal matters than the war and generally arrogant anytime we see them. Outside Revil, at least. The GMs and new fleet may not even be anything to do with the heads of the Federation that we see at Jaburo either, beyond them approving it.>>19641239The fact other Federation personnel rose up to resist does not disqualify the fact the Titans were a Federaton force staffed by Federation personnel with the consent of the Federation command themselves.
>>19641992That's what happens when you don't have a magnetic shield, such is the nature of being in outer space.
>>19641128>you will live in a tubethis guy gets it
>>19636536Because they're more like an alt history Weimar Republic but Hitler takes over mid WW1.
>>19636536so the world will gradually realize both were the good guys
>>19641992It's not full of shit in the sense that Mars doesn't have a magnetosphere unlike Earth, so anyone there as is would be much more vulnerable to solar radiation of various kinds and that could result in cancer and other health issues. As is being the key. Mars in AGE is terraformed and obviously has an atmosphere, even if they have no magnetosphere (we're never told one way or another) and an atmosphere will do a good bit to block such harmful radiation on it's own. You can also shield against that kind of cosmic radiation just by building thicker materials. Thicker walls in buildings, thicker clothes etc. Some materials provide better protection than others, such as polyurethane on a quick Google. So using that in construction or weaving it into clothes makes them more effective as radiation shields too. Which is to say it really shouldn't be a major issue for Vagans living on Mars, since we already have a good idea how to shield against the majority of such radiation long term even now; nevermind with future advancements made by people living in that environment for an extended period and with far more urgent motivation to do so.Even people in orbit could be protected by a lot of the same means. They wouldn't have an atmosphere, but placing a layer of water in the walls of their habitats or just building them thicker or of more efficient material would do the same job, regardless.
>>19636732>, and space by association, is the catapult of the next stage of human evolution,pic related: Human evolution
>>19650214That's just a result of a mutation though
>>19640550This argument falls to pieces when you look at the actual records and memoirs and notice that the Wehrmacht was 1. Up to its knees in warcimes too and 2. Actively participated in Nazi genocidal programmes repeatedly. The myth of the 'clean' Werhmacht was largely due to the need to have West Germany and the Bundeswehr (made largely due to massive involvement of Werhmacht individuals) and the fact that many people tried to court Wehrmacht officers to try and find out how to beat the Soviets during the Cold War. To be fair, the Soviets did much the same with the NVA which was literally staffed with captured Wehrmacht officers for a large chunk of its command structure.
>>19636635>>19636737It's like these threads about why Zeon it's bad are just easy bait to draw out the neo-nazis.
>>19639413>Too bad it's Sunday! Those buildings would've been filled up tomorrow!
>>19652810/tv/faggots need to fucking leave
>>19654994no one caresgo back retard
Cool thread, as an occasional tourist from /vr/ i am always impressed by the depth of conversation and the relative lack of shit flinging, recent comments aside. Good job everyone.
>>19655403If you replace spice with marijuana this is what Japanese society thinks drugs does to you.