Lovecraft edition>Recommended reading charts (Look here before asking for vague recs)https://mega.nz/folder/kj5hWI6J#0cyw0-ZdvZKOJW3fPI6RfQ/folder/guIyhAzS>Archivehttps://warosu.org/lit/?task=search2&search_subject=sffg>Goodreadshttps://www.goodreads.com/group/show/1029811-sffgPrevious:>>22073362
there is no way shallan doesn't get raped several times during her travels
>>22077943>greek mythos over roman or christian mythosWhat did Lovecraft mean by this?
>>22077998He preferred Greeks, but he did read Romans, hence "Jove". He said he rejected Christianity as a child and loved the Greco-Roman pantheon.
>>22077943o hm y. . .
>Empire of the Damned (Empire of the Vampire #2)>march 2024damn, was hoping sooner than that
moss bushes are so strong
>>22078001>He said he rejected Christianity as a child and loved the Greco-Roman pantheon.I'll never understand why people use this sort of thing as a measure of authenticity. What does it truly matter if one says about themselves, or others say about them that they've kept to a single idea, notion, view, etc. since childhood? Does that not hint at the person's lack of personal development more than anything else? They came to a conclusion at a very young age and either they've never challenged their own beliefs about this particular thing, or they've found other arguments which serve to further ossify their stance on this particular thing. Of course the latter would be for the best, but then one has to consider for a moment how many things they would've fiercely defended as a child were ever worth defending at all. I guess I just don't feel like this type of justification is ever played to good effect, at least not on its own without further explanation of the process the person went through to arrive at their current view.>When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
>>22078044He probably did question atheism, but stuck to it since he was scientifically minded and didn't need God to explain anything in a materialist worldview. The milieu he was in (science journalism) was fairly irreligious, if not anti-religious. To be kind to Lovecraft, it was beginning to be hard to believe in a classical worldview or even a Biblical one once Hubble found out our galaxy wasn't the only one in the universe. It took a while for Christians to even account for this, hence most of Lovecraft's cosmic philosophy about human insignificance coming to fruition in the 1920s.
>>22078044Children are honest and frank about things, contempt toward childishness is a form of deceit. Eastern philosophy often points out that children have an ideal mental state that sees the world for what it is instead of being wrapped up in bullshit.
>>22077998>>22078044fuck off tradcath sperg
>>22078077>>22078085That really depends on which region we're talking about. In korean stories, having a shit job and no college education is basically portrayed as the end of the world. In chinese stories the protagonist is usually a victim of power abuse and wants to get stronger to protect themselves and their social circle from threats and oppressors. Japanese protagonists tend to have their good will taken for granted and their trust betrayed, especially by childhood acquaintances or schoolmates, or adventuring companions. Western protagonists get cucked, often after being in a committed relationship.There are probably multiple things that play into these types of writing trends, both in terms of cultural values and recurring cultural phenomena. If there was no relevant corresponding value regarding being cucked, then even if the author had personal experience being cucked then he wouldn't care enough to think it warranted being written about. Likewise, if there wasn't a personal experience being cucked, or a high enough concern and/or believable likelihood of being cucked, then the author wouldn't think the scenario is believable enough to be relatable.Personally I take the most straightforward interpretation that it's pretty likely that korean authors hate being poor, chinese authors hate being oppressed, japanese schooling is cutthroat, and western authors are frequently cucks and/or associate closely with cucks.
/SFFG/ Recommendations:Read Reverend Insanity, Lord of The Mysteries, Neuromancer, Hyperion, The Prince of NothingAlso read The Wandering Inn, Between Two Fires, Mother of Learning, Cradle, I Shall Seal the Heavens, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Poppy War./SFFG/ Recommendations:Read Reverend Insanity, Lord of The Mysteries, Neuromancer, Hyperion, The Prince of NothingAlso read The Wandering Inn, Between Two Fires, Mother of Learning, Cradle, I Shall Seal the Heavens, A Song of Ice and Fire, The Poppy War.
/SFFG/ Recommendations: LITRPG EditionRead Azarinth Healer, Primal Hunter, He Who Fight with Monsters, Dungeon Crawler CarlAlso read System Universe, Dissonance, Defiance of the Fall, Iron Prince.
>>22078159>The ugly fact is books are made out of books, the novel depends for its life on the novels that have been written.Cormac McCarthy
>>22078169Weird. In other mediums you're considered a hack if you're just processing and retelling someone else's work, but in western fiction it's apparently expected.
>>22078169>the brutal savage brutalizers brutalized some brutal brutes and there was a bush of dead babies yonder and the brute said brutal brutalities be peddled by them niggers before he brutalized a brutalized brutes brutemother and scalped her and the creyosote was like a mad man eating cum from a CorpsCormac McCarthy
>>22078176>other mediums you're considered a hack if you're just processing and retelling someone else's workLiterally all visual art is copying, incel.
>>22078159>15yo nooticeryou have no idea, little guy. almost all writing is like this.and your examples are too general to read as a 'gotcha'. except the first. but that isn't even from MHA..
>>22078176>In other mediumsthis can easily be disproven
>>22078183In visual art you're constantly reminded to reference real life, not other creative works, to prevent flanderization and stagnation.
>>22078176>I have literally never engaged in creating art of any kind in my lifeYeah we know.
Whether you want to call Wight a plagiarist or not, it's both indisputable and telling that a NYT bestselling fantasy author's opening setting and narrative elements can be found in a japanese comic book serialization for little boys.
>>22078078Christianity is an eastern philosophy. That's one of the things people on this board point to all the time as an argument against it being spread in the West. It's foreign. It is at its core oriental, regardless of how many tend think of it today as the religion of the Occident. Either way, that verse doesn't express contempt towards childishness, so I don't know why you brought it up. I can easily bring up some verses which outright glorify it, however:>At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven? And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.>>22078100I'm not a Christian.
>>22078213I'm like 90% sure you could ask Wight if he was inspired by Hunter X Hunter for that scene and he'd probably just say "yeah". No idea why you're making a big fuss about it.
>>22078213>he hasn't realized shonen battle Manga is the greatest achievement in storytelling mankind has yet achievedIn all seriousness Wight was always very transparent about where his influences come from. If you're reading Cradle because you expect to be challenged and become a more well rounded person I really don't know what to tell you. It's popcorn entertainment, it knows exactly tly what it is and isn't ashamed of it.
>>22078213>15yo nooticerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Basic_Plotslet me accelerate your nooticing. we go way back here
>>22078218Watts probably would have taken a similar opinion. He argued that Jesus had a pretty similar view to eastern mystics and that jews poisoned the gospel to create the current christianity.
>>22078153Just tried reading Primal Hunter and man it was a pile of shit. Are there any good litRPG without systems? I fucking hate systems. The only one I've been able to live with is how it was implemented in Shadow Slave since it was extremely minimal. Something about half a chapter being dedicated to the stats of the MC really grinds my gears
>>22078266>Are there any good litRPG without systems?My guy, that's what LitRPGs are.
>>22078230I actually don't mind that Wight referenced Jump, I'm simply bringing attention to it to trigger all the boomers that think western lit is some kind of sacred cow that's superior to japanese fiction.>>22078235My main complaint about Unsouled is it being full of californian anti-masculinity themes that no WSJ author would willingly poison their story with.
>>22078238Why is the Jump comparison more descriptive of Wight's work than anything in that article?
>>22078266Yes, there are many light novel litrpgs that are like that.
>>22078271>californian anti-masculinity themesCan you give some examples?
>>22078266Why is it okay to hate a story because it has systems but when you say you hate cuck MCs the thread suddenly loses it?
>>22078276why is a more recent iteration on a thousand year old trope a closer comparison than the thousand year old trope?gee, i wonder.and why does your brain operate 100% on logical fallacy?
Reminder that if you believe in Christianity, Islam, or Mormonism, you worship the same desert tribe's owl deity :)>>22078271Wight got his master's in creative writing so his entire writing foundation is based off politically-correct teachings. He also has a(t least one) Californian friend because he made some blogpost a long time back about vacationing in their cabin.
JANNY, ARE YOU OKAY? ARE YOU OKAY, JANNY?
>>22078291The cuck arc/cuck plot is strangely ubiquitous in western storytelling once you start looking for it. Even Dune and BotNS have their protagonists get cucked. I wonder if Jung ever wrote about humanities collective unconscious fixation on cucking.
15yo nooticer, i don't think you realize how BTFO'd you've been and how retarded you come across. i hope it sinks in at some point.
>>22078319the connotation of cuck has changed recently, and incels are happy to misattribute it because they'll never be at risk of being cheated on
>>22078331meaning, and therefore connotation**to then refer to the original meaning is disingenuous
>>22078331>>22078337>the english speaking world redefined and revitalized the term cuckold because some shitpost making fun of m00t for getting cheated on went viral on /pol/ 8 years agoFunny that.
>>22078342Newfags were also spamming cuck at anyone and everyone when it was popularized, just like they do now with 'schizo' and 'incel', and were doing it with 'autist' before cuckspam.
>>22078289>Protagonist is tall and burly yet is paradoxically the weakest person in his homeland, this is to undermine conventional ideas of physical masculinity. >Protagonist's father is a deadbeat piece of shit, his mother is the authority of the family and a hardline rationalist, this undermines conventional ideas of gender roles and family structure. >When protagonist is at his worst his mother teaches him script and tells him about the spirit fruit, giving him both a way forward and the means to succeed at it (he uses scripts to defeat the tree spirit).>When the protagonist is challenged to a duel his sister is the one who helps him refine his technique and trains him to fight (by beating the crap out of him constantly)>As he gets stronger he tries to build a better relationship with his dad but his dad is a useless piece of shit and lets him down at every turn, again undermining conventional male family dynamics.>His clan is destroyed by a demon (obviously male) and saved by an angel (obviously female) who then tells him what do do next to get stronger.>He joins a sect, is once again antagonized by various male characters, and meets a little black girl who he asks to teach him to be cool and strong like her.Tl;dr The antagonistic and failure roles in the story are aggressively skewed toward men whereas the accomplished and leadership roles are aggressively skewed toward women. You basically won't find this happening in japanese fiction (even those for women), especially in shounen.
>>22078159The broad strokes are there, but the details are completely different.1. In Cradle, the bully is meaningless to the story. He is only a tool to demonstrate the larger attitude of the society the character lives in. After the first few chapters, he's never mentioned again. And most importantly: There's no gay shota romance.2. In MHA, the bully is a mere outlier in his cruelty. While in Cradle, the bully is the reflection of the larger society's attitudes, on amplified only slightly.3. In MHA, the MC is an entitled crybaby. While in Cradle, the MC humble and measured. Cradle MC is actually likeable.4. In MHA, you have to actually be special to become a hero. While in Cradle, everyone has at least a basic degree of ability. So the MHA MC isn't abnormally powerless. A lot of people are powerless in that world. He just *thinks* that he should be special. Which goes back to the point about his entitlement.MHA's MC like like a little snot nose brat, who wants to be a famous twitch streamer when he grows up. That's the attitude he has. Which is why he's not sympathetic at all to anyone over the age of 13. And Almight is the equivalent of Ninja. It's as if Ninja was too weak to carry his stream, so he passed it on to the MC. The entitled shit didn't do anything to deserve it. He just cried, made some impassioned speech, and for not fucking reason, Ninja decided he was the one.Cradle's MC is a hard working guy, who made due with his limited talents. He was proficient at defeating the monster, because he was resourceful and quick thinking. Using skills that he honed over years. What Cradle's MC is gifted with, is not a super power. But only the lifting of the veil of his society's perception. He was told he couldn't be anything by everyone growing up. And then he was granted with the gift of revelation that he could be something. And that motivated him to work even harder to achieve his goal.
>>22078376no need to explain, this guy doesn't want to learn and everyone else has probably read more than a few manga.
>>22078383It's probably not necessary. And I doubt I'll get through to him. He's probably just fucking trolling anyway. But he happened to choose the two franchise I care a lot about. I really like Cradle, and I really dislike My Hero Academia. I wouldn't feel comfortable if I didn't make at least one post about it.
>>22078319>Even Dune and BotNS have their protagonists get cucked. Heh? Did we read different books or something? Even using the retardedly liberal as fuck definition that you incels love neither Severian, Paul, or Leto II are cucks.
>>22078283Yeah that makes sense. I think I would be more accepting with systems in general if it wasn't always the same beginning. Starting year or two after the introduction of the system, none of the characters ever act believable. Well it's hard to say how one should act when something like that happens, which is why it should be treated as the norm from the beginning
>>22078369This post would probably sound very compelling to anyone who hasn't read the books. You did your homework. But anyone who has read the book knows this is all bullshit.
>>22078369>meets a little black girlKek, that god awful fanart continues to fool people. Even people who actually read the goddamn book. I have to give the autist credit. Most people don't even know he actually hates Cradle at this point because he's kept the bit up so long
Both Cradle and BHA are entry-level. Read more books/manga.
>>22078397in order to enjoy MHA you are essentially required to not have read much else. it is mediocre, derivative, shit.
>>22078413What is the sff equivalent of Dandadan?
>>22078426>>22078413Derivative entry level content can still be enjoyable. As it happens, MHA's failings are the aggressively unlikable cast of characters. Deku kills his own show.
>>22078376>He is only a tool to demonstrate the larger attitude of the society the character lives in. That sentiment was expressed, with Bakugo as the front and center, in the very first page of the manga. Yes Lindon's bully is a shallower character than Bakugo, but that is not a point in the story's favor.>2. In MHA, the bully is a mere outlier in his cruelty. While in Cradle, the bully is the reflection of the larger society's attitudes, on amplified only slightly.Again, see pic related. "What society is like.">3. In MHA, the MC is an entitled crybaby. While in Cradle, the MC humble and measured. Cradle MC is actually likeable.They're both timid and weak. He admits in the page where he bribes the bully in the comparison image that he's authentically cowering before him.>4. In MHA, you have to actually be special to become a hero.In the first chapter his teacher matter of factly asks the entire class if they want to be heroes, and they all agree. There is a hierarchy but every single kid in his class plans to be a hero as their career path, and the teacher doesn't argue against them.>MHA's MC like like a little snot nose brat, who wants to be a famous twitch streamer when he grows up.Deku's a good person at heart despite his faults, he actively challenges the expectations placed upon him and couldn't have moved All Might to save Bakugo if he didn't act against the villain first. Cradle MC's motivation is that his family is shamed and everyone treats him like shit, and later he encounters a plot device apocalypse prophesy that he's told to resolve. In other words cradle MC purely acts on external conditioning and reactivity, whereas Deku is proactive in pursuit of his belief against an undercurrent in which everyone, including his hero, tells him to give up.Cradle MC is an emasculated beta, Deku is not (at least at the beginning of the story). Deku talked back to Bakugo all on his own in the first chapter while Lindon cowered in front of his bully and tried to use bribery, deception, and threats by invoking Whisper and his parents' names.
So did Waybound get a release date? I only visit this general occasionally and that's the only reason I can imagine there's all this hubbub about Cradle now.
>>22078408Cope.>>22078410I don't particularly care if she isn't black, simply the fact that there are 4 different iterations of "MC gets coached on self improvement by a stronk independent womyn" is enough to complain about if only for being so damn repetetive.
>>220784714 different iterations in a single damn book*
>>22078470We're talking about Cradle being shit. It got a release date a while back. It's what June 8? Fairly soon.
>>22078483Fair enough, I wanted to talk about RA Lafferty as I only recently started reading him but after reading this thread it just seems like casting pearls before swine.
>>22078490That's how it is anywhere on the site and almost anywhere on the Internet. Your only hope would be a small group of like-minded fellows, which you'll probably never find and if you do, will probably still disappoint. If you need more moderation, there are more popular sites to go to.
>>22078316It's the users who reported you that you ought direct your ire towards. You aren't among friends and you don't belong.
>>22078510I've had good conversations on here before. The quality of this general does seem to fluctuate up in down every few months. The resident schizos and autists seem to come and go with the seasons.
>>22078522Oh bro? Your self awareness reps?
>>22078522Nice try Moshe./lit/ is a no nigger zone.
>>22078522>t. "Trump and the Language of Cthulhu"Cthulhu. Love him. So big. So great *inhales* ... the best. You know what I always say. Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu... you heard it folks. R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn. We love that. And it's so beautiful. R'lyeh. I've been there *inhales* in my dreams... the cyclopean and non-euclidian architecture. Love it.
>>22078450>Again, see pic related.Again, there are people born without quirks. Being born with a quirk is not abnormal. The difference between normal people and quirky people, are like the difference between pretty people and ugly people. Like, of course the pretty people become the popular kids, and the popular kids are often bullies. That's the kind of scenario Deku is in. But not only is Deku lacking a quirk, he's also a huge fucking nerd. So it's like he's an ugly nerd with a spazzy attitude. That's why he gets bullied. Not because he's abnormal.Lindon gets bullied, because he's quite literally unimportant to his society. *despite* the positive upstanding qualities he has. He's tall, attractive, strong(for a normal human), multi talented,. intelligent, and not a social retard. In any normal society, he would be the cream of the crop. The top dog. But because he's in a society where none of that is important, nobody cares if he's bullied. And in fact, he's blamed for not making himself less noticeable.>In the first chapter his teacher matter of factly asks the entire class if they want to be heroes, and they all agree. It's been about 2 years since I watched the anime. But if I remember correctly, Deku is in a school that is especially geared toward kids with quirks. Which again, is another factor of his entitlement. That he thinks he should be in the privileged environment with the privileged kids. Instead of being in the normal school with the normal kids.>They're both timid and weak.Lindon is not timid. He's been forcibly humbled. Again, the first major conflict, is when the Elder tells him that he's too arrogant for his position, and he should be less noticeable for his own good and the good of the clan. But Deku is actively blubbering like a baby all the time. God I hate crybaby characters.
>>22078471I don't see how anyone is supposed to continue this conversation with you when you've already shown that you've completely either misread a character, or maybe never even read the books in the first place. I think you should just drop it at this point and try again with another popular book if you're so interested in arguing about YA fiction.
Yog-Sothoth... he's gonna have to start paying child support, sorry to say. You know that, right? the Whateleys... love them... but we can't keep paying for them. It's gotta stop, folks. Send them back to whatever vague realm or dimension outside our own material universe we all know and love...
>>22078450>Deku's a good person at heart despite his faultsCool, but his faults are too many and too frequent. I'm not waiting 200 chapters and 10 volumes for him to stop being a whiny baby bitch boy.>and later he encounters a plot device apocalypse prophesy that he's told to resolveNo, he's not told to resolve anything. He's told that there he has a 0.0001% chance of changing fate. And he takes that chance. The Deus Ex Machina doesn't actually believe it will happen. Lindon defies all odds.>In other words cradle MC purely acts on external conditioning and reactivityLindon seizes opportunity. After having been given a second chance of course. Deku's pursuit is vanity. Deku persues the vain notion that *he* should be a hero. Lindon has no such vain notions. Rather, he just takes what he can get, and he's grateful for every chance he has.>Deku talked back to Bakugo all on his own in the first chapter while Lindon cowered in front of his bully and tried to use bribery, deception, and threats by invoking Whisper and his parents' names.Lindon's subtle digs are too subtle for you. Lindon is a rational calculating guy. It's strange that you claim Lindon's mom is acting as the masculine figure by being rational. But when Lindon is rational, you twist it around to make him sound beta.
Dante's Inferno should count as Science Fiction and Fantasy right?
There should be a specific term for this form of debate you see on 4chan and Reddit where two people go back and forth quoting each other line by line drilling down further and further into minutae until the argument becomes quibbling over the specific definitions of a single words and shit.
>>22078471Meanwhile, in the actual books, Lindon's main mentor figure is Eithan, the whitest man in the series. Yerin's better along than Lindon at the start, and that's half the point, Lindon is basically the kid who's been held back for bullshit reasons even though he clearly has potential to learn.
>>22078617Pedantry. When most people hurl the "autist" word around, they mean a "pedant" but they're too stupid to use correct words.
>>22078601If you want sure but it's not /sffg/ material as in it's not the kind of thing people love to talk about hereThat said, give it a try anyway, I haven't read it but I'll read your post
>>22078638>I haven't read itPeon. How can you come to /lit/ and not read Dantescan poetics?
>>22078641I got it confused with Strindberg's and read that one instead
>>22078643If you read Dante, don't get the iambic pentameter version from the Romantic period. It's utterly shit. The point of Dante's poetry was to be more common with more folky soul to it since he used vernacular Italian. It pissed off all the upper class who wrote only in Latin.
>>22078553>Being born with a quirk is not abnormal.It's so rare he had to go to the doctor, get an xray, and get a diagnosis for having no quirk. Both his parents have quirk. Every single kid in his kindergarten and highschool classes had quirks.>That's why he gets bullied. Not because he's abnormal.Bakugo targets him because he stands up to him. In the first page he fights Bakugo. He announced that he wants to go to the same school as Bakugo. He talks back to Bakugo in the classroom. Outside the classroom he (indirectly) saves Bakugo. In the hero academy he fights Bakugo. Lindon never stood up to Teris. The main premise of Deku's character is he believed in his own ability even if nobody else did, and his main source of grief is that nobody else believes in him. This is why he wanted his mother to say he could still be a hero, not just apologize to him for not being born with a quirk.Lindon has a lot of advantages over Deku in terms of physique, still able to use some degree of madra, well connected parents and a talented sister, yet somehow manages to be far more cowardly than Deku anyway. He knew that Teris couldn't kill him yet groveled to him anyway. The guy has zero self respect which plays negatively into him being a boring as fuck protagonist with no agency within the plot. I don't know why you're so fixated on each protagonist's abilities over their character, it seems like you resent Deku for daring to have ambitions despite his humble beginnings compared to Lindon who is a submissive beta despite a better starting point.>>22078555Sounds like you're clinging way too hard to a piece of unrelated character trivia because you can't address the substance of the argument to me.
>>22078657There's a given percentage that's Quirkless, right? Like single-digit percent? So not THAT uncommon.
>>22078590>He's told that there he has a 0.0001% chance of changing fateDeku was told he had a 0% chance and still changed fate. The deus ex gave him validation and advice while Deku received the opposite.>Lindon seizes opportunity. After having been given a second chance of course. Deku's pursuit is vanity.Lindon followed a path offered to him by others while Deku created a path on his own.>Lindon's subtle digs are too subtle for you. Lindon is a rational calculating guy."I'll tell the adults on you" is apparently subtle, calculating, and masculine according to Cradlefags. Did you fail to notice the part where Teris didn't give a shit and took Lindon's lunch money anyway?
>>22078651Do you have any particular recommendation?Would a prose translation be taking it too far? I found a Dutch one that's supposed to be good
>>22078266>Shadow Slave the new gold standard of progression fantasy
>>22078666Like Unsouled I don't know of any stated percentage of quirkless, particularly for Deku's generation. At least as far as the beginning of the story goes, the doctor just states it's "quite rare". The fact that the socially accepted term is "quirkless" not "regular", "mundane", "standard" or some such also feeds into the setting clearly being quirk-dominated.
>>22078638I'm reading it but currently having a hard time understanding it. I'll read it without looking up on this one series of videos explaining about it first and then the other way afterwards. That said I don't want to create a thread just about this so that's why I asked about it on /sffg/ since it's the closest thing I could find related to Inferno.https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLz_ZtyOWL9BQw3svOTNMbd4WCpxkilhT6
>>22078702Prose is fine as long as it's got some lyrical vibe to it. Generally, the best is Hollander and Hollander (pic related) but if you're Dutch, go with what's more readable.
>>22078657>It's so rare he had to go to the doctor, get an xray, and get a diagnosis for having no quirk.I looked it up, and apparently 20% of the world remains quirkless. Though, Quirkless people appear to be shrinking over the generations. So I'll concede that point. He is abnormal. Though, honestly, is it THAT abnormal? I mean he's just a minority. It would be like being Asian in America. Sure, the kids are going to make fun of you for being different. But the idea of an asian person isn't super abnormal either.Also, while I was looking it up, even MHA fans state that Deku was getting bullied not merely for being abnormal. But because he wanted to be a hero despite not having a quirk. That's a detail I forgot. But it's an important one, because it supports my idea that Dekus is an entitled snob.>The main premise of Deku's character is he believed in his own ability even if nobody else didSee, that's the problem. He's completely delusional. It's one thing to believe in yourself when you have something to offer. It's another things to have nothing, and still believe. That's arrogance and entitlement. It's like a black minority kid trying to be white, so he straightens his hair and dyes it blonde. Like, he just doesn't have what it takes. Or a tranny.>yet somehow manages to be far more cowardly than Deku anywayNot cowardly. Calculated. When another person's fists can go through your chest like you just got hit by a bus, you're not going to risk getting on their bad side. Not unless you're some narcissistic kid with delusions of grandeur.>He knew that Teris couldn't kill him yet groveled to him anyway. Literally the fucking opposite. Lindon is told explicitly by the elder that if Teris decided to kill him, he would only get a mild punishment, and his death would alleviate the clan of his shame.
God damn this thread is so fucked. I thought the ssfg could not get worse in the past few weeks but damn. Read a book niggas, like an actual book. Not RPG chink ai shit or YA Sanderson garbo. It's sickening.
So what do you most look for in a fantasy book? An interesting world and mythology? Cool characters with compelling struggles and development? Grand tales of heroism? Complex magics? Just plain alien weirdness?
>>22078782I'll read whatever the fuck I want pal.
>>22078789I look for some sort of novel as well as thoughtful without being overly didactic. I think a part of the wonder is going through and finding puzzles to think over. Wolfe is good at this. Pic related (Mieville) is a bit too vague at this, but it's fine.
>>22078789A new insight. If a book is not to my liking, that means either I need to grow as a reader to enjoy that book or that book is just plain bad
>>22078782the thread mirrors society's desire for meaningless schlock pretty well
>>22078789Any or all of those can entice me but I'm most partial to the last. If you're going to write speculative fiction please for the love of god show me something I haven't seen before.
>>22078796>picI don't hate Tolkien (quite the opposite) but I do hate most fantasy Tolkien influenced. It's a bit like how Halo ruined first person shooters for two decades because you had nothing but poor imitations of Halo. Basically fuck Robert Jordan and all his ilk.
>>22078693>Deku was told he had a 0% chance and still changed fate. The deus ex gave him validation and advice while Deku received the opposite.Deku was quite literally granted an OP ability. All because Almight decided he has grit or something. It's literally boomer tier job hunting advice. "Just look the manager in the eye, and give him a firm handshake, and he'll grant you his All Mighty powers">Lindon followed a path offered to himAll he was told, was that seeking out a mysterious person, would give him the possibility to change. Other than that, he has no path.>"I'll tell the adults on you" is apparently subtle, calculating, and masculine according to Cradlefags.I forget the particulars of their exchange now. But Lindon was being patronizing basically. Just enough that the bully sensed he was being mocked, but not enough that the bully could justifiably act on it. But they do end up fighting somehow. I forget how. But I suppose Lindon stepped over a line. In anycase, Lindon plays the cards he's dealt intelligently. If he has to grovel to get what he wants, then that's what he will do. The book reminds you of this again and again with his internal dialogue. Unlike Deku, who is just an emotional trainwreck. Dekus becomes overcome with emotion, which propels him into heroics. And then overcome with emotion, which makes him cry about it afterward. He's just pulled this way and that by his narcissistic need for validation and greatness, only *tinged* with heroism at his core. But that small core trait doesn't make the rest of him not an obnoxious baby bitch boy.>Did you fail to notice the part where Teris didn't give a shit and took Lindon's lunch money anyway?Lindon's bully fails to do proper damage to Lindon. Then, he runs away from the remnant, while Lindon takes care of it. Lindon at the beginning of the tale, is a survivor, but no coward.
>>22078782I actually came here to see what YOU guys were reading, so I would have something to read. So tell me what you've been reading recently, bitch.
>>22078803If you want haven't seen before, if novelty is so important to you, then you should read as widely as possible without restriction. That means not only English language fiction. It means everything.
>>22078782im reading LITRPG KINO!
>>22078796>picwhat a massive woke faggothope he dies of aids
>>22078844I just started Dying Earth. It's really good. Vance is really good at using imagery to portray an alien and surreal landscape that somehow feels incredibly tangible and real. It's also just super refreshing to read pre-Tolkien fantasy for once. No need for super dense world building which allows for the plot to move along at a decent clip. People and places are introduced when the are relevant and left behind when there not and it's perfectly fine to tell a story that way.
>>22078369You are actuely delusional and know nothing about humans, society or family dynamics of people.
>>22078882UGHHHH. Why did I even ask? It's always Vance you with thread loiterers.
>>22078266It's chinese novel but consider reading Reincarnation of the Strongest Sword God
>>22078844Take your pick, nigga
>I looked it up, and apparently 20% of the world remains quirkless.Problem is a world statistic includes older generations. People over 40 could be 60% quickless and Deku's generation <1% quirkless, which it's clearly stated that the number of quirkless is going down every generation.That said there's no point in trying to scrutinize this bit of setting trivia so hard. It's clear from Deku's treatment in the story that he is, narratively, abnormally weak. The classroom scenes illustrate that. The lack of any character doing what you are in rationalizing the normalcy of quirklessness illustrates that. Hell, Lindon got a special combat technique that only works for his particular situation, Deku got no such thing.>That's a detail I forgot. But it's an important one, because it supports my idea that Dekus is an entitled snob.Super weird mindset. Deku has selfless motives for wanting to be a hero. It's not a status thing like it is in Lindon's case (pre deus ex).>See, that's the problem. He's completely delusional. It's one thing to believe in yourself when you have something to offer. It's another things to have nothing, and still believe. That's arrogance and entitlement.No, it's called individuality, agency, and self-actualization. Furthermore Deku DID have something to offer, that was the whole point of the All Might interaction.>Or a tranny.Personally I don't care if dudes volunteer to become eunuchs under their own power, the problem is that they demand privileges and validation for it. I don't think validation was what Deku was after at the end of the day, just hope.>Not cowardly. Calculated.Well he calculated poorly, because his thinly veiled threat only agitated the situation.>Literally the fucking opposite. Lindon is told explicitly by the elder that if Teris decided to kill him, he would only get a mild punishmentHe stated that Teris would become a pariah and bemoaned the fact that his sincere attempts to be submissive and cowardly were frequently misinterpreted as rebellious due to his large physique.This dude is stating in plain text that he's being cowardly and you're trying to dress it up as keikaku mastery instead. I don't even like Deku and dropped his shit like 20 chapters in, but I can't agree with the angle of criticism you're trying to use here. Deku is a self-actualizing individual whereas Lindon is a whipped dog of the clan hoping for a plot device to come along that lets him rise up (which it did). All Might and Empty Palm were shitty plot devices, Deku should have just trained to become Japanese Batman or something, I can't see Lindon ever becoming anything if there weren't a convenient spirit fruit and combat technique waiting to fix his situation, because he was so damn weak willed despite having some degree of ability.
>>22078913These ratings aren't very encouraging
>>22078913>Reincarnation of the Strongest Sword GodAny story that's named 'Reincarnation of X', 'Strongest X', 'Journey of the mightest X' is trash. 100% accuracy in that. The most derivative, uninspired, repetetive swill.
>>22078069>it was beginning to be hard to believe in a classical worldview or even a Biblical one once Hubble found out our galaxy wasn't the only one in the universe. It took a while for Christians to even account for thisWhat are you talking about?
>>22078949Don't know if it's the case here but some stuff gets rating bombed on NU due to an early dogshit MTL.
>>22078961Why the fuck would you even believe in God when there are billions of galaxies with billions of stars and so many more planets? All Christians believed in geocentrism until they had to accept it was retarded to believe in it.
>>22078969>God not real because space bigIncredible reasoning here.
>>22078969>The whole visible world is only an imperceptible atom in the ample bosom of nature. No idea approaches it. We may enlarge our conceptions beyond all imaginable space; we only produce atoms in comparison with the reality of things.>It is an infinite sphere, the centre of which is everywhere, the circumference nowhere. In short it is the greatest sensible mark of the almighty power of God, that imagination loses itself in that thought.t. pascal
>>22078989>space bigThe known universe isn't just "space" ... The Bible says "Heavens and the Earth," not all the other planets. Because Jews didn't even have telescopes. You just keep tacking on retarded theology to keep up with the times for the last 2 millennia.
>>22078995Pascal didn't write the Bible. Stop tacking on theology and philosophy ex post facto.
>>22079007>The heavens shew forth the glory of God, and the firmament declareth the work of his hands.Draw the line between planets existing and therefore God not being real.
>>22079060Jews thought the earth was flat and that there was only one world, that the sun revolved around said world, and that the sun was different to stars.
it's not supposed to make sense, it's supposed to get (you)s
>>22078825>Deku was quite literally granted an OP ability. All because Almight decided he has grit or something.Deku stood out because he had a selfless character in a society that was under rapid moral and social degradation, degradation that was happening to even All Might both physically and mentally. >"Just look the manager in the eye, and give him a firm handshake, and he'll grant you his All Mighty powers"Deku gave the top hero a firm handshake and was told to give up. I don't like All Might changing his mind 5 minutes later either, it obscures the main point for the sake of delivering instant gratification to the reader, but Deku carving his own path when absolutely everyone else tells him he can't is not a boomerism. The collective opinion is wrong about things all the time and you need to be able to break out of the barrier of social expectations if you intend to actually be exceptional at something.>All he was told, was that seeking out a mysterious person, would give him the possibility to change. Other than that, he has no path.Dude fucking groveled to her and she gave him everything from a prophesy, to alternative timelines, to probabilities, information about the world, information about his future opponents, step by step instructions for the immediate future, a vision with the appearance and location of the girl he needed to find, wiped his ass and even gave him an extra diaper in the form of a macguffin. The author made the mistake of thinking getting the chance to throw yourself to the feet of a superior and ask them about every issue they can think of is some miraculous turning point for a hero, but if he read any actual xianxia he'd realize it's what every dirty peasant does the moment they see a flash of mystical light in the sky. He's presumably only read western literature in which groveling is so outlandish of a concept to both the writer and the reader that it instead becomes fantastical. I mean goddamn you may as well have just made the celestial the hero of the story at that point, she did literally everything after all.
>>22078969There are all sorts of resolutions to that. Since we're in /sffg/ I'm going to recommend Omphalos by Ted Chiang (an atheist) and The Man by Ray Bradbury (a heterodox Christianoid).Both are short stories. First one's beautifully tragic. Second one's just plain weird (and apparently has some resonance with Mormon doctrine).
>>22079088Yes. I'm sure it's very nice to add resolutions after the fact. But my initial point stands that Jews and Christians believed in geocentrism due to the centrality of Earth and Eden as part of Creation in Genesis. If you can't see why that inspired Lovecraft to be an atheist with a cosmic worldview, then it's kind of unfair to him, since you're lending more credence to an opposing view that is completely retrospective and outside of the Bible's content.>The rabbis of the Talmud believed that the world was flat, and that the sun revolved around the Earth every day. There is a debate about the length of the solar year in the Talmud, and its consequences and the rare Jewish ceremony of the Blessing of the Sun (Birkat Hahammah) are discussed. The view of the talmudic rabbis is contrasted with that of the contemporary Greek astronomers. While the rabbis of the Talmud argued about the size of the flat Earth, the Greeks had determined the Earth to be a sphere, had calculated its circumference and had moved on to consider other questions. Next the chapter describes how Maimonides (1138-1204) adopted the Ptolemaic system, and examples of Ptolemaic biblical commentary are given.
>>22078915Shit, I don't know. Nice collection I guess.
>>22078949The ending is bad, that is the only reason I can think of for 1 start rating, so people probably got upset about it (me included)>>22078960have you read it, it definitely isn't 100% trash
>>22079086please go to /a/, the worse thing than litrpg and harem discussion is anime and manga discussion,
What should I read if I really really enjoyed the style of Creatures of Light and Darkness? Something that has a mix of styles and tones (epic, poetic, grounded, silly etc) within the same book.
>>22079118>please go to /a/, the worse thing than litrpg and harem discussion is anime and manga discussion,Go back.
>>22079098It's a fine way to lose your faith. There are a hundred similar ways to do it, things that don't add up if you take the outside view even if they can strictly speaking be justified with enough epicycles.I have to admit I didn't pay much attention to the context and saw an opportunity to plug a few stories I liked.Omphalos agrees with you about geocentrism and almost shades into cosmic horror, so I think you'd like it.
>>22078969>Why the fuck would you even believe in God when there are billions of galaxies with billions of stars and so many more planets?What does one have to do with the other? And everyone was a geocentrist, it was simply the common sensical position.
>it's a mistaking one's physical perceptions for being descriptive of the true nature of reality episode
>>22078969>He doesn't believe in the MonadNGMI
>>22079118I'm ignoring the MHA fanboy now. He got enough replies out of me. He's either just being a contrarian for sport, or he has the worse tastes imaginable. Either way, I just came here to snag indirect recommendations. Not argue with anime autists.
>>22078969Read Book of the New Sun. Specifically the chapter in the 4th book titled The Key to the Universe. Should explain all you need right there.
>>22078882I'm currently reqding an anthology of Vance short stories. They're pretty good so far, he's great at imagining crazy worlds but some of his plots fall short. I've only read his earlier works so far though, just started the Overworld which is pretty fun.
>>22078768>>22078651I prefer the Longfellow translation.
>>22079192>argues seriously for an hour>abruptly abandons discussion without any counterargument and sucks up to an ESL while pretending to be uninvestedLol. Embarrassing.
>>22078319>humanities collective unconscious fixation on cucking.It's mostly a western thing. Chinese protags are usually cucking others and japanese authors regularly get lynched if anything cuck or cuck-adjacent happens in a story where people aren't actively expecting it. Koreans do have some cuck content but that's because they frequently copy from the west.
>>22079341Doesn't that imply that cuckoldry has been normalized in western literature?
Grimdark written in 1300shttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Jerusalem_(poem)
>>22079358>/sffg/ - Science Fiction and Fantasy General
>>22078319>The cuck arc/cuck plot is strangely ubiquitous in western storytellinganon has never read Arabian Nights lol what a retard
>>22079348The west normalized whoredom, cuckoldry is just a predictable outcome of that, and thus is defended by westerners in an attempt to indirectly defend whoredom. Setting aside cuckMCs entirely, in most japanese fiction a heroine isn't even qualified to be such unless she's a virgin, let alone cucked the protagonist. In the west you'll get passive aggressive comments on your work if your main heroine isn't a non-virgin.
>>22079341>It's mostly a western thing. Chinese protags are usually cucking othersThat's just nonsense. Tons of Chinese protagonists start out being betrayed, having their engagements annulled etc. It's usually just played as fuel for revenge and nobody gives a damn that the bitch who met the MC once many years ago doesn't give his clan face just because his cultivation was crippled, but it happens a whole fucking lot.
>>22079366It's retroactively a grimdark fantasy book.
>>22079375There's a lot of chinese stuff, and most of it is shit, so forgive me for missing the big picture. At least in chinese harems, MC's usually doing the cucking. Chinese also mock cucks pretty aggressively, having a green hat meme for that express purpose.
>Farewell, friend. I was a thousand times more evil than thou!What Eternal Champion/Moorcock stuff should I read next?
Lynch webnovel niggers. Lynch Bakker niggers. Lynch Wolfe niggers.
>>22079416Most importantly, lynch cuckwriter niggers
>>22079402>wish fullfillment MC doesn't get cuckedwho would've thunk
>>22079461>simply not being a cuck is apparently "wish fulfillment"Oof
>>22079465Ah yes just the kind of mentally sound logic I would expect from a harem reader
>>22079471Just saying, the wish fulfillment part is the harem and such, MC not being a cuck is just basic decency.
>>22079476Don't really get harems personally, having a throng of women around sounds like a nightmare if I'm being honest
>>22079358Unfortunately, it's quite difficult to find a good (stress on good) physical copy in its original Middle English (excluding manuscripts), which is really the only version anyone should be reading. Livingston's certainly leaves much to be desired, and so does Hanna & Lawton's. Similarly, the Polychronicon and Laȝamon's Brut have proved quite difficult for me to find good editions for, surprisingly enough. The best version I've found of Laȝamon lies disturbingly not in a book dedicated to it itself, but in a Middle English grammar. Somehow Middle English remains even now in this odd state where you can find the real popular works, e.g. Sir Gawain and the Green Knight (of course handled chiefly by Tolkien), Piers Plowman, The Canterbury Tales and such, but the moment you step outside of that realm, you're left with what is really a wasteland in comparison. I suppose that should be expected, but I don't think anyone would really understand what I mean and how bad it really is until they themselves underwent a deep study of Middle English texts, carrying any hopes of obtaining a proper edition of even something like The Squyer of Lowe Degré, Secreta Secretorum, or Orologium Sapientiae. Hell, even Bede's histories are difficult to find, though I have had some luck. It's really strange, considering just how easy Middle English is to make headway in and really clear the proverbial jungle of a language your heart already knows. You'd expect more native speakers to be interested in learning it just to open up that brilliant world of poetry and prose, practically lost to the eyes and ears of the New English man.
>>22078399>Hwi and Duncan in God Emperor
>>22079517Harem as a genre basically exists to address the fact that romcoms never want to end, but end up getting stagnant if they don't. If you have a harem you can rotate interactions with and between heroines and write competitive arcs that create the illusion that the romance is progressing when it actually isn't. Personally I'm sick of romance in fantasy in general. It's every bit as out of place as romance in video games.
>>22079543Fuck, you just reminded me of Daniel Schinofen that fucking hack.He does exactly what you say, have a bunch of women that turn into a face in the crowd, you can't give anyone meaning full interactions with the protag if you only have X slots available to do it.
>>22078882Very cool anon but any books like dark souls????? And just started wheel of time, when does it get good???? Only played witcher 3 but are the books any good??? What did severian meant by this? Will fat fuck martin finish winds of winter? Is it worth reading kingkiller? Will fatter fuck cuckfuss finish the third Book?? Any books with INCEST???? any fantasy books with hard and epic Magic systems?????? Soulcatcher a cute, gemmell is based and is Bakker a sneed or a Chuck????
>>22079612There are manga that have used that formula to persist for over a decade with nothing happening. There are probably soaps that have done it even longer. Entire arcs of "oh shit are they going to get together" that ends with someone saying "actually I'm not sure if I can choose yet" and then a walk back to status quo.Alternatively there's the wife collector genre where MC meets girl, does story arc for girl, fucks girl, recruits girl into the harem, and then she drops off the planet with one appearance per 50 chapters while he goes and does it again with someone else. That one's more common in chinese writing than in japanese writing.
It's that time, just for >>22078844Post the>last book you read>current book you're reading>next book you plan to readMainstream only tourists need not apply.
Anyone here knows how to read Japanese?Are the Gaia Gear novels worth learning Japanese over?
>>22078023just finished picrelvery good book, wish I had a pole saw lightsaber
I finished reading through Journey to the West and it's infinitely better than any of the other Chinese webnovels that people keep shilling in the threadsalso it was initially annoying for each chapter to end with "we do not know what happened, let us find out in the next chapter" and the next chapter to go "we were telling you about ..." but I find it nice to pick up where I was when I picked up from where I left off
>>22079670>Are the Gaia Gear novels worth learning Japanese over?No. Learn Japanese to read Bashou, Kawabata, Ikeido Jun, Tanaka Yoshiki, Kanbayashi, Kishi Yuusuke, Takada Hiroshi, Nishio Ishin, Kurimoto Kaoru, Takayoshi Honda, etc., and of course the few good VNs like Utawarerumono, Silverio Vendetta, Baldr Sky, Dies Irae, Kajiri Kamui Kagura, and Eien no Aselia.
>>22079778The biggest reason to learn japanese is to use japanese forums and not have to interact with english speakers anymore.
Six Records of a Floating Life was good but the harem subplot ended kind of abruptly
Finally reached the last chapter of Rebirth of the Malicious Empress of Military Lineage. The male lead sucks and the last arc in the other kingdom sucks but it was a fun read, especially at the start.
>>22078023Misread that as "mom bushes"...
>>22079521That's sad to hear. I've been interested in exploring outside the big names of Middle English, and of course I want the authentic experience not modernizations.
>>22079949Hiya! さいつらですが、そんなのの、お前達どうやって言ってるの?!お母ではないか、でも何故でも背直せば作らないよ!そんなところで「ごめんなさい」おまえらって、外国人みたいに話すけどねえがー!ねえ、そんなことやらないでください!むーじょーですが、ほんとにいつから日本語を初めまして中学生の時代でしょう?ほんとは、お仲ikuがたくさん理解出来ませんか?もっぱなしかって、アイツの方ですから。一度耳を通し見てくださいね。でも、ねえとうつおべりです所以、複数回目ですよね(;Д─) ??あと、ひさしき表現について話してくださいですね。お世話をしてください。。。
>>22079949aa sou sou kawaii desu ne
>Get recommended Robin Hobb's books>Her protag is an idiot who can't do anything right and actually gets his wife stolen from him by his adoptive father who then has like 4 children with her>He's still on good terms with them after that.>He also has this weird homosexual thing with a tranny?I will never read anything written by a woman or a cuckold fetishist ever again
>>22079949The point of using a foreign site is to escape domestic propaganda and social engineering attempts. Sure using a japanese site means encountering japanese propaganda, but as a non-japanese they'll not be pertinent to me anyway, making it easy to ignore. Being the common demographic on a website means being the target of predatory and malicious elements that operate on that website.
atakushi ha sukoshi nihongo wo hanashima
>>22080115>woman or a cuckold fetishistredundant
>>22080120I'd personally rather pull the plug on the internet altogether and live wholly in isolation from the news, propaganda, etc., than learn a language just to be able to escape it. I've done it before for a couple months, and I don't know... Just seems like a whole lot of effort to put in just to do something you can do instantly, for free. You don't even need to really pull the plug entirely, just exercise some restraint and hold yourself back from engaging with stuff you know is actively poisoning your mind. Of course, I wouldn't be here if my self-control was perfect, but well, here's to hoping that I'll somehow gather up the will to go through the detoxification process again.
Bakker is kang
>Dungeon Cuck Carl>Primal Cuckwhy LITRPG authors like to do this man? every mc is a cuck nowdays
>>22080238what kind of drugs does someone have to be on to still watch tv?
>>22080247video games/trannies/pornographyall of these have a commonality. The modern man is no longer a man.
>>22080222The point is that you can have useful content without the poison as long as you separate yourself from the target demographic.>>22080238Case in point. How desperate is this guy to influence the thinking of others to fly off the handle at his existence merely being hinted at?
>>22080247Most aren't. It's just that the cuckshit stinks so bad it stands out over everything else.
I had to drop DOTF because MC turning a girl into a piece of equipment was way too fucking cringe.
>>22080301/sffg/'s favorite litRPG following DCC: Defiance of the Fall.
>>22080247they write what they know
>>22080238>this is now "reality"2+2=5
>>22080258Why do you still care? Is your life so perfect that you haven't got more important problems than trannys?
Niggas wheres the weird west?
>>22079663>Ancient Phoenix Clan in Martial World; last actual novel was Use of Weapons>True Martial World and The Game of Fourtune>will continue reading Martial World until the momentum dies down and then I think I'll read the last Mage Errant book or something /x/
>>22080493I hate this picture so much. This is a picture used by only the most sexless of losers. I can imagine a 400 lb obese neckbeard panting behind the screen, whining about "muh western civilization".
>>22080563If your emotional response is really that visceral then the image seems to have done its job.
>>22080493Okay, but why is there a picture of the fall of Rome behind him?It should be trannies, porn and videogames
>>22079663Palette cleanser time>last book you readThe Master and his Emissary>current book you're readingThe Seven Storey Mountain>next book you plan to readSome litrpg shit
Stories that feature world pillars? Pillars that support the sky, stop it from falling etc...
When does Azarynth Healer become good?
>>22080616Gravity Rush 2 a videogame
>>22080632when you throw it in the trash with the other litRPGs
>>22080639Why don't you stop sucking dicks?
>>22080646Why do you think you're winning by shunning the thing that's happening right now, in the time that you're alive? To dislike it is one thing, but to try to sit out the time that you're alive.
>>22080659please stop interacting with bots and making the thread worse
>>22078844Just finished Last Legends of Earth yesterday. It was just ok. Not as good as Radix or Wyvern. Started on Storm of Steel today.
>>22080674Whoa. What did you think of LLoE overall? It was a bummer of a conclusion and not as connected as I wanted but the evolution of the system over time was cool to see. Did you read the other two in the tetrad? What did you think of Radix itself?
>>22080659stop playing videogame books
>>22080686The setting of LLoE was really good but AAA didn't make good use of it. The best part was with Squat on the beach. That was top tier AAA. The main characters sucked and AAA pulled his punches on them. Compare to how he trashes Sumner and Jaki. Gai never seemed like a real alien, just a seflish and hypocritical woman. Ned and Shanti are almost plot devices, not characters. Zotl should have been used more, dinosaurs and distorts should have been used more. The struggles of the humans are just briefly summarized. AAA knows how to write action scenes but somehow he failed here and they seem derivative and amatuerish.I actually never finished Radix. Maybe I should.
have any of you litrpg fags read Fighter Fred? it's the only appealing thing I've ever seen similar to what these autists fetishize, and if you can't recommend it to me from firsthand experience then fuck off
>>22079663>last book you readmy own book I'm editing right now>current book you're readingmy own book i'm editing right now>next book you plan to readThe Secret History of the Mongols to prepare for my next book I want to write.
>>22079663>lastSteel Bonnets>currentDeath Mask>nextleaning towards The Haar, or Neuropath
>>22080762>"Secret" History>theres published book about ithate this trope
>>22080821I didn't use ChatGPT. It's Open Assistant, and I asked it to make a weird response to his Japanese.
>>22078376>In MHA, you have to actually be special to become a hero.80% of the population have quirks.>So the MHA MC isn't abnormally powerlessHe has 8 quirks. His basic quirk (superstrength-speed-endurance) counters 99,9% of heroes except some especially strong individuals like number 1 american hero with reality warping superpower.
>>22080817its literally what the title is calledhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_History_of_the_Mongols
>>22080922i know, anon.
>>22080616Doesn't Monte Cook's Ptolus RPG campaign setting have a spire like this?
What the hell happened in this general
>>22080419right here. The Jerusalem Man trilogy is the goat
>>22080729>>22080686>>22080674About to start the Dominions of Irth trilogy. Have any of you read it?
For me, it's Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
>>22080616The Dark Tower
I swear, one more thread with trolls spamming about cucking and I will start reporting the shit out of every post that mentions it. I'm here to talk about sff books, not some schizo's delusional fixation.
I just finished Shadow of the Torturer for the first time ama
>>22079663>>last book you readway of kings>>current book you're readingwords of radiance>>next book you plan to readwhatever stormlight 3 is called
>>22081249How many errors of memory, and references to sun gods did you spot?
>>22079663>>last book you read>>current book you're reading>>next book you plan to readReverend Insanity
>>22081097I have not. Of his work, I've only read the Radix tetrad.>t. fag posting Radix for 6+ years>>22081334The third (and fourth) book is such a stinker that you won't even remember the name after you've read it.
>>22081249What made you think it would be like Dune or LotR?
>>22081640Because those were the only other books he has read.
>>22081415>last book you readPrince of Thorns by Mark Lawrence. It wasn't good. Very bad edginess ratio.>current book you're readingEmpire of the Vampire by Jay Kristoff. I'm liking it so far, good edginess ratio and the framing of the story is very different than I expected.>next book you plan to readI dunno, ideally something less edgy. Maybe Waterborn by Greg Keyes.
>>22081653If you only 3 books those aren't the worst choices.
Severian looks like THIS ?
does anyone have that list an anon made of all those books with milfs?
>>22079663>The Master and his EmissarySheeeit... I left yesterday thinking this thread was a bust. I come back, and you somehow managed to get /sffg/ to open up about their current reads. Thanks, man.Too bad half of the books are non-fiction, and the other half I either read already, or have zero interest in reading. Looks like my only option here, are cheesy right fight martial arts web novel, or cheesy redneck horror schlock.Anyway:Last book: TiganaCurrent Book: Tigana. I kind of lost interest in it enar the end. Only 10% left, and I can't work up the mood to care. So yeah, it's been months now since I've read anything other than Tigana.Next book: Probably Cradle: Waybound. At this rate, the book will release before I have a chance to read anything else.
>>22081812he actually looks like a sandman reject
Is it bad writing in fantasy when the writer is constantly referencing outdated architectural terms and objects the average person has no idea about? I feel like a fucking retard having to google things just to visualize a scene, but at the same time surely there's an onus on the writer to paint the picture in less literal terms?
>>22082000If it's direct references to architecture that just diegetically does not exist it's a little fucking weird, yeah. I get a bit of iffiness every time an idiom that's really Earth-based in its wording is used in fantasy too.
>>22082000are you talking about steven erikson?
>>22081658>Empire of the Vampire by Jay Kristoff.What a ridiculous title for a book
>>22082008>I get a bit of iffiness every time an idiom that's really Earth-based in its wording is used in fantasy too.Meanwhile translators think it's correct to replace highly region specific expressions with highly western specific ones for """authenticity""".
>>22082044I read an excerpt. It's a ridiculous book.
>>22082000No, because the average reader should know those terms. Forget about the average person. Just make a quick flash card to help get those words stick. Remember, you don't just stop learning a language because you're fluent in it, even if it's your native language.
>>22082044I guess? There's vampires and they have an empire. So far the story isn't about the vampire empire at all but I'm only about 230 pages in. I do enjoy the illustrations in my copy though. I find it extremely difficult to visualize stuff from just descriptions.
>this guy sold 200 copies>This is the fantasy stuff people are reading and writing>I'll never sell more than 10 copies>He has a 4+ star on Goodreads
>>22082217>the average reader should know those termsThe average person is retarded and reads YA garbage. You expect them to make flash cards? Have you ever talked to anyone? Almost all of them cease actively learning new things right when they are out of school. They pursue no intellectual endeavors.
>>22082295link your book
>>22082335It's not done.
>>22082000Stuff like that is why I love using my kindle bc I can just highlight a word and the definition shows up
>>22082341>It's not done.The old /lit/ classic. Never gets old.
>>22082295Women buy smut. Deal with it. Are you selling smut to women? If not, it's not relevant.
>>22082295>HeThat's clearly a woman.
>>22082308The average person isn't reading the books usually.
>>22082402Yes I am.
>>22082462Seems like a bad choice then
Anyone else just hate fantasy?
>>22079663I'm on the Guy Gavriel Kay train right now. Last A Song for Arbonne. That was a lot of fun, well worth the read. CurrentFinishing up The Sarentine Mosaic today. I'm getting more attached to these characters than I expected. Even if I don't know my Byzantine history all that well. NextUnder Heaven
Pls recommend some fantasy novels with overpowered magic systems.
>>22082577I'm beginning to learn that I don't really like sci-fi. Fantasy is more my thing.
>>22082613I came to the conclusion of the exact opposite funny enough. I realized I just really dislike characters for the most part and I only want in-depth explanations of fictional science with interesting things to think about. I don't really even like soft science fiction. I've never heard of such a thing as hard fantasy where they just spend chapters explaining the rules of the in-universe magic, but maybe that would be interesting to me.
>>22082625I mean to a point that's Sanderson, but even then the focus is largely characters. Honestly, LitRPGs tend to be more crunchy like that, though rarely are they too thoroughly thought-out and explained. Infinite Realm is probably the only one that comes to mind that gets really in-depth.
>>22082625>I've never heard of such a thing as hard fantasy where they just spend chapters explaining the rules of the in-universe magicthis is your average Brandon Sanderson book. Interesting, because I learned I don't like his books either. But maybe you will.
>>22082613I've come to the conclusion that the genre doesn't really matter, there's good stories and bad stories, whatever the genre.>>22082625I like to think that 'hard fantasy' would be the opposite of hard scifi, magic stays magical and unexplained, no 'systems', everything being highly symbolic, typologies, stuff like that.
>>22082634>this is your average Brandon Sanderson bookI wouldn't say that it is his average, most of the rules are dispersed throughout the books. Rhythm of War was the case where he did go mad with chapter after tedious chapter of hard fantasy though, and it was by far the worst of the Stormlight Archive books so far.
>>22078213Cradle is trash though. Garbage in garbage out.
>>22079521Is it true that TEAMS isn't respected by scholars?
>>22082657>I like to think that 'hard fantasy' would be the opposite of hard scifi, magic stays magical and unexplained, no 'systems', everything being highly symbolic, typologies, stuff like that.That was my thought too. But I didn't want to argue the guy on the definition. But hard fantasy is definitely less explanation, not more.
>>22082657>I've come to the conclusion that the genre doesn't really matter, there's good stories and bad stories, whatever the genre.the dullest, most generic and least thoughtful conclusion ever, congrats
>>22082613Space opera and the like is cringe, but literary scifi from the New Wave can be Kino. But scifi died around the late 90s and will never come back.
>>22082577No I just find that I'm always chasing a story with the same level of detail and consequences for characters that GRRM creates and end up finding myself disappointed
>>22082657>I've come to the conclusion that the genre doesn't really matter, there's good stories and bad stories, whatever the genre.Eveyone knows that.Ffs are you fucking 12? The absolute state of /lit/
>>22082713>I'm beginning to learn that I don't really like sci-fiYeah this really thoughtful, dumbass.
>>22082657>I've come to the conclusion that the genre doesn't really matter, there's good stories and bad stories, whatever the genre.This is the brain of someone who has read less than 50 books in their entire life
Anyone read 12 Miles Below? I’ve read it twice now. It’s great It doesn’t use a system, or have any of the annoying LitRPG elements >>22078144
>>22082766>It doesn’t use a system, or have any of the annoying LitRPG elementsAre you just saying that it's not a LitRPG?
>>22079663>last bookOh I’m going to get some flak for this but The Hundred by Jason Anspach and Nick Cole. I like military Sci-Fi and this one is very enjoyable.>Current bookLions of Al-Rassan by Guy Gavriel Kay. Pretty good so far reminds me that I really like the middle eastern and European meshing aesthetic.>next bookFinish Old Man’s War, or Men at Arms by Steven Pressfield.>>22082589I’ve really been enjoying Lions of Al-Rassan how are the rest of his books pretty enjoyable? Also is it the same world between books?
>>22078313I didn't know wikipedia was a thousand years old.
>>22082771I mean, it’s on royalroad which is notorious for bad LitRPGs. However, I feel like it does a lot to distinguish it from the average story on there. Give it a try m812 Miles Below is frostpunk and post-apocalyptic Maybe I’m just retarded, but I really wish this story gets more popular. I think it’s something special The last story I liked on RoyalRoad was Mother of Learning. And this is as good if not better than it.
>>22082810I was asking what you meant. I still don't know whether it's a LitRPG or not, I'm confused.
>>22082596The Elminster books are pretty good and when he gets running with the magic he gets pretty powerful.
>>22082738maybe not really thoughtful, but at least it's an honest opinion and not a thought terminating cliche
>>22082596The Planeswalkers in the Magic: The Gathering novels are overpowered.
>>22082766No system you say? I'll check it out
>>22082815I guess I think that all LitRPGs have a system? And anything without a system isn’t a LitRPG. But maybe that’s just me being wrong.
>>22082848Yeah, but the way you phrased it made me think you were trying to say something more nuancedI might try it
>>22082848>And anything without a system isn’t a LitRPGof course not
>>22082725What's literary scifi and the new wave?
>>22082613>>22082577fantasy and sci fi are the same thing.
>>22082893They obviously aren't.
almost two years ago i got into audiobooks because the office moved and my walk there became much longer. been sticking just to books i've already read so far. been through over 30 by now probably and i just got finished with the first law and the sequel trilogy. the narrator for this is by far the best i've ever encountered, by the end of the books i actually started thinking he's too good for the materialanyone got any recs for /sffg/ audio books with great narration? my previous favorite was dune on account of a good main narrator but also the use of multiple narrators including male and female ones.
>>22082909The Quantum Magician
>>22082734Every time I try to read ASOIAF I just see the tv characters in my head and hate it.
>>22082917I'll go read Game of Thrones, the best selling science fiction novel.
>>22082909Glen Cooks Black Company series has a really good narrator for all the the books with voices for each.
I want apocalyptic fantasy fiction where the world is on the verge of dying to undead ala Myth: The Fallen Lords please.
>>22082911thanks, i see the same narrator has done blindsight, so i'll probably start with that because i haven't read quantum magician yet. i'm reading the broken sword right now, i'll try to read this one after that. is the whole series good?>>22082925excellent news, that series was already on my list but i'll bump it up.
>>22082932funnily enough the inspiration for myth is mentioned in the post above yoursi don't remember if there were any undead in it though
>>22082909The series of Sabriel books have great narration by Tim Curry. The guy really get into it. There's this talking cat character, and he really sells you on the idea of a talking cat.But also, I think part of the reason why I was able to get through the entirety of Wheel of Time, was thanks to the narration. The book uses a male narrator for male PoV chapters, and a female narrator for female PoV chapters. They're both really good. The only small issue(and kind of funny issue), is that sometimes they say names differently.
>>22082909The Expanse has an incredible narrator, Jefferson Mays. It's honestly a shame he hasn't narrated anything else I'm interested in besides that series because his narration and wide range of distinctive character voices leaves me wanting when I hear other narrators.
>>22082873The New Wave was a science fiction (SF) style of the 1960s and 1970s, characterized by a great degree of experimentation with the form and content of stories, greater imitation of the styles of trendy non-science fiction literature, and an emphasis on the psychological and social sciences as opposed to the physical sciences. New Wave authors often considered themselves as part of the modernist tradition of fiction, and the New Wave was conceived as a deliberate change from the traditions of the science fiction characteristic of pulp magazines.Many young writers entering the field came to feel, either instantly, like Thomas M Disch, or after some years' slogging away at conventional commercial sf, like Harlan Ellison and Robert Silverberg, that genre sf had become a straitjacket; though widely supposed to emphasize change and newness, sf had somehow become conservative (not in the political sense but rather if your novel wasn't inspired by Lensman, John Carter or Foundation it would be very hard to get it published)By 1965, then, sf was ripe for change. In fact, many of the so-called sf experiments of the period were not experiments at all, but merely an adoption of narrative strategies, and sometimes ironies, that had long been familiar in the Mainstream novel (see Modernism). Thus Philip José Farmer's "Riders of the Purple Wage" (in Dangerous Visions, anth 1967, ed Harlan Ellison) echoed the manner of the "Aeolus/Cave of the Winds" segment of Ulysses (1922) by James Joyce, while John Brunner's Stand on Zanzibar (1968) homaged the narrative and Infodump techniques used by John Dos Passos in the USA trilogy (1930-1936 3vols)some of the sf writers who felt they now had the freedom to experiment, especially Ballard and perhaps (rather later) Moorcock, were to add something new to the protocols of prose fiction generally; the New Wave may have taken from the Mainstream, but it gave something back in return (this is now a truism of Postmodernist criticism, but it was by no means clear at the time), and certainly New-Wave sf did more than any other kind of sf to break down the barriers between sf and mainstream fiction.Sorry for the long post.
>>22082932The Throne of Bones
>>22082957interesting, i've thought about doing the wheel of time because i do have fond memories of it, but at the same time i know there's no way i'll ever work up the will to slog through it again (as in with actual reading) thanks! and maybe i'll add the sabriel books to my reading list >>22082985that's great to hear, i've been considering the expanse because i was less than impressed with the tv show and heard it kind of peters out by the end but figured it's probably decent enough for an audiobook. i'll try it.
>>22082766I remember reading it to the middle of book 3 then stopped to wait for more chapters to be released.It was a great read, and I loved the idea of machine gods fighting against each other for so long that they've forgotten their original purpose and trying to uncover the mysteries of the past.I'd also recommend it to others as well.
>>22083008I wouldn't say it peters out persay, honestly book 7 is my favorite in the whole series. The end of book 9 is a bit divisive but I liked how it ended all things considered. The novellas are incredible too except Gods of Risk that one sucks ass. What's nice about reading the books after the show is that while the overarching plot is the same how the story gets there is different, some characters from the show are Mashups or a few book characters, others show up again after the show writes them out as POVs etc. Makes it very fresh while still feeling familiar, can't recommend them enough they're probably my favorite scifi series atm.
>>22082778Yeah, all of his books are enjoyable. Most of his stuff takes place in a shared universe. Arbonne and Tigana are their own universes. Sarentine Mosaic takes place a few hundred years before Al-Rassan.
>>22083008>interesting, i've thought about doing the wheel of time because i do have fond memories of itIf you already read the books, then maybe it's not worth it. I tried re-listening to the book a couple times, and with each re-listen, I gave up in the middle. Around book 8 I think? Or perhaps 9. Somewhere around there. Anyway, at about that point, you feel the shift in his writing.But who knows, maybe enough time has passed for you, that WoT will feel fresh again.
>>22083061Oh nice, sounds like I have a new author to dig through
>>22083320It’s the weekend, more time to sit down and read so less filler time to shitpost.
>>22083320sorry, I've been reading bakker and jerking off
>>22078144Hyperion is one of my favourite novels of all time. The Fall of Hyperion is also good, but FUCK the Endymion sequels. They start off interesting enough, looking at the setting long after the Hegemony's collapse, but quickly fall to sentimental nonsense and gibberish about love being a fundamental law of physics somehow.
>>22083451I just put Hyperion on my nightstand to start reading tonight. Sounds like you wouldn't recommend reading the Endymion books after? That's a sentiment I've heard before. Wondering if its best left as a duology>>22083106Just to second the anon you replied to, absolutely read Tigana, Arbonne, and Al-Rassan. I finished Tigana last week and it's the first book I've read in months that I could not put down.
I am literally the Keats cybrid
>>22083451>Hyperion is one of my favourite novels of all timeNice to see another Redditor on /lit/ :D
>>22083476I'm another guy. I know I'm in the minority, but I genuinely had great time through the entire series It's kinda like the TV series Lost, that it set up very interesting mysteries, then stumbles when answering them.The thing that surprised me was, it's a very very funny book. Got some great moments of humour. Recently read Ilium/Olympos from the same author, that one I did not enjoy as much. Don't get me wrong, I liked it, it was good. It's just I think Hyperion series is super good
>>22083476>>22083506Looking through Guy’s bibliography it looks pretty interesting. The topics are fun and I enjoy the analogs he draws of all the different religions.
>>22083493Reddit iz wen like book I no like
>>22083493Everything is reddit to you retards.
>>22083533A Muslim, a Jew, a detective, a Greenpeace-spaceship captain, an ambassador, a poet, and a Catholic priest walks into a bar..My favourite is the priest. Or maybe the poet. Even if the climax to the Muslim's story is really funny.
>>22083493>Anon gets upset when someone shows any sign of positivity in his presenceThis says a lot about you, and none of it is good.
Sci-fi = r*dditFantasy = 4chan
YA = god
>>22083549>>22083566Yes yes I too love Hyperion but have you heard of Wolfe or Vance??? Vance probably isn't Reddit-approved actually, huh? What with Cugel being a rapemachine and whatnot.
Let us get this straight once and for all. Reddit is anything mainstream and gay. So Hyperion/Dune/lotr/Lovecraft - gay would be super YA stuff like Sanderson/Harrypotter/retarded magic system shit4chan is anything pretentious and edgy that only 100 people know about. So Wolfe, Bakker, R A Lafferty, Clark Ashton Smith, etcProbably the greatest are those in the middle that can't be categorized as either reddit or 4channel. Those like Jack Vance, Cormac McCarthy, David Gemmell, Robert E Howard.
>David GemmellOne of the worst pieces of shit authors in the fantasy genre.
>>22083579Cugel and Severian are both rape-machines, even if Severian feels a tiny bit bad about it 15 years later Emydion too is kind of a creeper, and gets himself a loli-gf. Can't get over her being constantly referred to as "kid" Here's a picture of Shrieke doing the: "Uuuuuh, female kid" thingy
>>22083603>Can't get over her being constantly referred to as "kid"Will you be surprised when you inevitably look up Simmons's ethnicity?
>>22083579>spoilerprobably, he is too old for reddit, but yes they wouldn't like him, most of r/fantasy hates Thomas Covenant for a similar thing.
>>22083586>that only 100 people know about????Wolfe and bakker are pretty well known once you go past surface level sci fi/fantasy
>>22083603>I stared at the messiah's itty-bitty titty, when she decided to go skinny dipping, and didn't feel any sexual arousal, at all Endymion doth protest too much, methinks
>>22083628>bakker well knownThis has really not been my experience
if i listen to power metal and become a fantasy fan dork will i be happy
>>22083619I will never understand people that cant handle reading stuff that upsets them regardless of the presentation/context. It comes off to me as a major personality flaw.
Reading Way of Kings rn and just got to the part where Kaladins childhood friend demeans him in front of her betrothed or whatever; I hinder for more. What’re some good childhood-friend-betrayal kinos?
>>22083628ask random people around who say they read scifi/fantasy. Bet none will know either of them/name their books
>>22083603>implying Severian ever raped
>>22083724Most people who are past surface level fantasy like tolkien and sanderson will have heard of wolfe, probably will have heard of bakker if they're into grimdark
>>22083757I went to college for retarded literature, met many people at bookstores, talked to other young writers, dated girls who were into "fantasy."Not one when I mentioned knew either. This is from a pool of maybe 30 or 40 people.I even have a family friend that grew up as a big sff nerd in the 70s and 80s, he's also obsessed with theater. He had never heard of Wolfe.
>>22083730Jolenta was a slut with massive bimbo tits who 'asked for it'Still, I'm pretty sure Severian himself says something to the effect of: "I really shouldn't have raped her" in Urth
>>22083775Wolfe is one the most well known "literary" sff authorsMost fantasy readers don't read anything but sanderson or wheel of time slop so of course they haven't heard of wolfeMost fantasy readers couldn't even name jack vance either. they probably couldn't name r e howard, they've probably heard of conan but not of the author
what about ra salvatore
>>22083493Imagine being filtered by Hyperion.
>>22083795cool battles and he he likes muscular women and trees so he's fine in my book
>>22083795I heard he's revising his older works so the drow aren't evil by nature and slavery is bad m'kay. But his earlier works are still great, simple, paint-by-numbers fantasy.
>>22083795Reading his books is just fun, and I can basically knock one out in a shift.
>>22083783He says "naw, it wasn't like that nigga." Probably wrote that as a response to all the Ursula le guin dyke feminists sending him mean letters. If I had a dollar for every girl I "raped" I'd like $3.50
If you want to try some "literary" sff from this century, I think this series is criminally underreadThe style in which it's written, borderline experimental. Really is something else. *chef's kiss* You just need to have thick enough skin do deal with there being gays, and the narrator doing in-universe weird stuff with pronouns and genderI recall this series being mentioned some years ago in this thread (at which point I had not read it)and people being mad because it didn't agree with their political sensibilities. >I will never understand people that cant handle reading stuff that upsets them regardless of the presentation/context. It comes off to me as a major personality flaw.Goes both ways, right? Besides, it portrays fascists larping as the Roman Empire with a benevolent dictator as the most popular and successful form of government, in future plurality of weird political systems(which is a huge part of the series, it's "speculative politics"). What more could you ask for?Little did the author know this would become an actual thing in the future, when she began writing the series 12(?) years ago, prescient
>>22083857>thick enough skin do deal with there being gays, and the narrator doing in-universe weird stuff with pronouns and gender>female writerYeh, nope
>>22083856I think it was cute. Severian still being super self-righteous and/or autistic, but giving the tiniest concession.That after "massive" character development, and becoming the autocrat of an entire planetThat he now recognizes the possibility, that he could have done something wrong - even if he believes he did not It's why I love the series being written in the style of an autobiography.You get these interesting moments of self-reflection, with present Severian giving a deadpan commentary on the actions of his past self.
What's your favorite era of fantasy and scifi? When did it start declining? How were the 80s in particular? I'm interested in reading CJ cherryh because I like alien species/cultures and mysteries as a plot element but perhaps there are more authors, I don't care if scifi or fantasy.
>>22083827>I heard he's revising his older works so the drow aren't evil by nature and slavery is bad m'kaynah, he just re-introduced the space dark elves of spelljamer
>>22083866Your loss. While I wouldn't call it a masterpiece, as there are too many flaws to it, I could nit-pick for days.Most of these are caused by the sheer ambition of the series.It is very very unique. I genuinely fear, that I will never get to read a new series as interesting as this one was
Dang we on page 10. I can't wait to discuss Hyperion and Wolfe more in the next thread!
>>22083912should i read endymion? did wolfe invented pringles? when does stormnlight gets good?
>>22083619>most of r/fantasy hates Thomas Covenant for a similar thing.I just checked and literally every thread on /r/fantasy praise the books. Pretty sure grimdark in general is popular there.
>>22083918<picture of fantasy novel within amazon's top 50 alltime bestsellers>Anyone else heard of this?
>>22083857I don't think this has anything to do with having thick skin or not, rather it's about having standards. I'm not willing to read that kind of garbage, because I know that it is actively harmful for the mind.
/lit/ should implement a feature where you can pick your favorite writers. Kind of like flags on other boards.
>>22083966>>22083962both great posts. We are done here folks. Make it happen
>>22083966It might be fun to namefag as our favorite author for the next thread or three.
anyone read this book? thoughts?
>>22083857That's not really "going both ways". That's just a slightly different version of the same thing. If you can't handle gay characters or politics that disagree with yours in the books you read you're an even bigger bitch than somebody that can't handle rape.
>>22083924In your mind, what does grimdark being popular have to do with Thomas Covenant? Given that it is not grimdark.
>>22084026The comments that were praising it for having a dark protagonist.
books with a barbarian main character that isnt Conan or Cnaiur.