Link to previous thread >>22011193We're reading a book a day and hopefully we can keep the momentum and read the Odyssey afterwards.(not the OP of the first thread but there's no thread right now)
since we're on book 6 I feel like I ought to post this gemhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qI0mkt6Z3I0helped a lot into learning the hexameter by heart
Map of the Iliad
Thanks for posting thread 2, OP. Things are starting to heat up with Diomedes gutting Ares in Book 5 and Zeus calling him an annoying lil bitch.Also, at the risk of opening myself up to a torrent of abuse, I’m going to shill for a side-project of mine. I am currently running a quest on /qst/ set within Homeric Greece, in the general timeframe of Stasinus’ Cypria, before the Trojan War launches properly.This is essentially a text-based “choose your own adventure” where the main character’s actions are decided by committee. We’re currently playing as a noblewoman, Deianira, who is running her brother’s estate in rural Thessaly in his absence. We may eventually take control of her brother, Nikandros, who is sailing to Ilion with Agamemnon, Odysseus and the Dioscuri on a diplomatic mission…If you are not interested, no worries, and if you think you could be, please check it out!>>>/qst/5644134
>>22033566I agree, Im reading pope but when I get stuck I refer other tanslation, rhymes are so kewl sometimes.Also reading first few paras on mythology and generally here is very helpful https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/TyndareusAlso Im trailing behind, book 5 is so tidious someone puch me on, im where Hector is going to Odyssus, diomedes and others and still like half of chapter is remeining, but even tho itsbbetter than Catalog of ships.
I'm on book 5 too and at the part where Pandaros, son of Lykaon is cursing his bow. I'd be pissed too if I had shot good arrows into 2 champions yet couldn't summon the darkness to consume the light from their eyes.
>>22034119That’s what you get when your dad tells you to bring your good horses and chariots to style on the Greeks, but you want to prove you’re a hardass by walking to Ilion with no help, I guess.
>>22034230Doesn't help when Apollo has completely forsaken you.
reposting a character reference guide that another anon posted last threadhttp://shell.cas.usf.edu/~demilio/2211unit1/names.htm
Book 6Tricky lines>Great Ajax first to conquest led the >way, Broke the thick ranks, and >turn’d the doubtful day. The >Thracian Acamas his falchion >found, And hew’d the enormous >giant to the ground; His thundering >arm a deadly stroke impress’d >Where the black horse-hair nodded >o’er his crest; Fix’d in his front the >brazen weapon lies,
>>22035029Ajax smote him on his horse haired helmet by the (single? φάλον) horn in the middle and the spear penetrated as far as the bone killing him
>>22034048>book 5 is so tidious someone puch me onBook 5 was such a wild ride! Diomedes' fury was a sight to behold, and the killing of Pandaros, the escape of Aineias with the help of his mother, the treachery of Ares and his battle with Diomedes, Aphrodite's laments to the other gods, Agamemnon's brutal refusal to take any prisoners of war. I was honestly on the edge of my seat the whole time.
>>22035946How about Aphrodite being a baby, did that get u goin?
The Iliad is tedious and dry, the Odyssey is rich and fun.
>>22036346I'm more of a Hera of the white arms kind of guy but yes
>>22036394I like parts of the Iliad but I agree. I'm actually going through the Odyssey right now, on book 16. I'm hardly into martial literature, fiction or not, I just like the mythology and relationship between some of the characters. the Odyssey is way more fantastic and has more interesting characters to me
>>22036680You're not a fan of picrelated?
fuck Achilles and fuck Paris>>22036690no that's literally one of the gayest aspects. even if the Odyssey I don't care much for the extended lineage bits unless it's a recurring character in other major myths
>>22036894>no that's literally one of the gayest aspectsagree to disagree
>>22033892My time isnt that valuable but im not wasting time reading bullshit like this. Nothing to prove by "reading le classics".
>>22037453You will never feel Pallas Athena's grey eyes pierce your soul
>>22037449>Having that length of shaft in your mouthI have to agree with the other anon, seems pretty gay.
>>22037476It's only gay if you're the one receiving. Every Greek and Roman knows this
Good morning anons.Today we read Book 6, which covers the duel of Hector and Ajax (today I learned that there are two Ajaxes…)
>>22037740Darnit I mean Book 7.
>>22034043Diomedes? Hes always just referred to as diomed in my translation, bit bizarre innit
so few comments about book 6? maybe one of the best, both with the last meeting of Hektor and Andromache but also the display of xenia between Diomedes and Glaucos
>>22037758in my Odyssey translation Helios is written 'sun'. you'd think they would've at least capitalized it. but then there's 'Dawn', which is always capitalized.
>>22037793yeah it's one of my favs. it's one of the main reasons I like Hector. he cares about family, his wife and child especially, but he ultimately has to do his duty and follow his fate. it's interesting too because that's mostly the justification of war: it's what you have to do. but Andromache's description of being taken into slavery is one of the ways in which war and its effects are painted in a bad light. but the worst is yet to come
>>22037803his speech feels even kinda "dharmic", especially when he says to not really grief too much, no one is going to kill him who isn't already destined to do so, to each its inescapable fate, whether noble or base, go home and do your duty, war is a business of men
Why is Achilles fighting for Argieves? I dont want to look on net lest I be spoiled.>moyo4x
>>22038507Currently hes seething and crying to his mommy since he was dishonoured by Agamemnon but originally some suitors of Helen made a pact that they'd make sure nothing would happen with her marriage to Menelaus. After she ran off with Paris their agreement when into effect and they convinced other Aechaean kings to help her her back.
>>22038592Ahh I knew about the pact, I didnt about Achilles being the suitor.
>>22038601I'm not actually sure if Achilles was a suitor or not. He could have joined for honour and glory. There also was some prophesy that he would die in battle and also that he was necessary for the Greeks to win the war.
>>22037793>the last meeting of Hektor and Andromache>the last meeting>lastummmm, what happense to Hektor?
>>22037803>he ultimately has to do his duty and follow his fate. it's interesting too because that's mostly the justification of warYeah, this sentiment reminds me of the famous Trojan speech coming in Book 12.> Ah, cousin, could we but survive this war> to live forever deathless, without age,> I would not ever go again to battle,> nor would I send you there for honor's sake> But now a thousand shapes of death surround us,> and no man can escape them, or be safe.> Let us attack--whether to give some fellow> glory or to win it from him.I appreciate that Homer doesn't demonize the Trojans.
>>22039059You will see Zeus-favored frogposter from Sparta son of the great warrior Menelaus
>>22039075Why would a frogposter from Sparta be broken up about the death of Hektor?
>>22039059at some point he says "βάλλ' ἐς κόρακας" and sails away into the sunset to find himself some fine Oread bitches
I was thinking back on the Paris vs Menelaus fight. Often times we hear people say "Why do armies have to fight; why can't the generals and politicians just duke it out?"The Paris and Menelaus fight is interesting in how it handles that question. Last thread, there was a discussion about how much we should read the Gods' actions into things. Did Aphrodite come down and actually scoop up Paris, or did he simply sneak away (under her divine protection)?Concerning the question of why can't the generals and politicians fight, I think we can interpret this scene in two ways.1. If the leaders do fight, the losing side won't accept the results; thus it is a pointless exercise, and one army will always have to crush the other.2. If Paris did just sneak away, then the Iliad is saying that it is the cowardice of some leaders that makes them not fight. The scene is open to interpretation.
>Then in turn the shining son of Hippolochos answered:>‘High-hearted son of Tydeus, why ask of my generation?>As is the generation of leaves, so is that of humanity.>The wind scatters the leaves on the ground, but the live timber>burgeons with leaves again in the season of spring returning.>So one generation of men will grow while another>dies. ...bros..
>>22039493>the scene is open to interpretationI don't think I can rightly say I know for certain what Homer (or whoever created the Iliad) meant by the scene, but given the various other (at least at face-value) interactions mortals have with gods, I think it's fair to interpret it fairly literally. what's the alternative explanation for, say, Achilles being from a sea nymph? or the extended lineage of Nereids in their cave at the depths of the sea? or Thetis going to Hephestus to make new armor for Achilles? what are the metaphors exactly? what are the gods placeholders of? is Achilles just a narcissist/schizo who thinks his mom is a sea nymph and sees visions of her? I just don't see an alternative that's stronger than a literal interpretation (at least as far as what the original composer(s) intended)
>>22039495Apparently the man vs. leaves comparison was a famous simile at the time ... pretty silly that Glaukos puts Diomedes through the whole rigamarole of that extended simile and then launches into an in depth description of his lineage anyways
>>22039270The Trojans are great warriors that deserve respect
1 week in and almost a third of the way through. How many of you are still with us?
>>22039999checkedI'm still here but I'm trailing behind a bit. I haven't done a serious amount of reading in a while so staying focused hasn't been easy.
>>2203389>tfw 3 books behind because travel got in the way
>>22039999Just finished book 7, the Ajax/Hector fight was kino.Amazing sportsmanship on Hektor’s part, he really ennobles the Trojans as a whole.Pretty amazing that the Hektor is carrying all of Ilion on his back and basically only has shit for brains Paris as a back-up, while the Achaeans have the deepest bench of all time.
>>22039999Quads checked, still reading, a bit ahead
>>22040015>>22040242>>22040320Less than I expected desu bump
>>22039999Me me me Im hereStarting book 8 maybe today ill go till 10 as someone in past thread said it picks up from then on. Also Ajax and Hector fight is so weird, they want to kill each other but still part with gifts>>22039059I dont think its the last.
>>22039999Here here. I might not contribute much but I always read the books
On chapter 9 and Achilles rant is soo good, this does get better right?
>>22041801book 10 is a nice little detour imho, then for about 5 books it does get a bit repetitive
how do you read so much frens... I am still at book two
>>22041860dont worry fren, you'll read alright one daywhats stopping you? attention span or vocabulary?
>>22041860Im goung on ahead as in few days I may not get to reaf, also I have no other business so
>>22041867both, I already have the "easier" translation of Fagles, but my attention span is so short as well. I never read this much or as structuredly
>>22041928I'm falling a bit behind too anon dw
>>22041928stay disciplined fren, YAGMI
>>22042921Yeah, I mean pride in the sense of honour, not the Christian sense. My translation actually says 'anger' more than pride or honour.>the very word Greeks had which we translate as "honor" was directly related to the PIE verb for hearing, κλέος < *klewos i.e it's what others hear of youInteresting. The Ancient Greeks, and all Aryan cultures, seem to prioritise reputation above all. They even went to war just to build a name for themselves; in fact, it seems almost like a theological view of immortality the way it's mentioned.
>>22042952shit I deleted because the other anon deleted his post, let's not keep doing it
>>22042959Lol, my bad anon. I deleted it because it seemed a little silly and narcissistic to share a pointless anecdote like that.
>>22042825I've experienced the same thing. It's like everyone seems as if they'd do immoral things for money if they had the chance. If I were to say otherwise they always say "you're lying" or "you think you're better than everyone else." Many people seem to be dishonest and lack any principles whatsoever. That they're willing to abandon all their beliefs just for money or some other material benefit no matter how small and if you wouldn't there's something wrong with you. Your brother being a doctor yet still would shill big pharma for money show it isn't really about someone poor trying to better their situation either. It really does feel like our society is built on dishonesty. I wonder was it always like this or if this just how it is now. I don't doubt that the media further fuels this and profits from it. Another thing is that honour is pretty meaningless in the modern world. Achilies seething about how Agamemnon took Briseis seemed a bit silly to me but it shows how little honour, especially in war, means to us today. We don't respect honour or hold ourselves/others to any "higher" code. People (literally) are willing to prostitute themselves and do all sorts of things by dishonest means to get ahead of others. I really think this is a big part of what leads to a low trust society.
>>22043008I didn't really want to derail the thread but our conversation, more specifically, was about the vax. That pic rings true, but what bothers me more than the VAX GOOD people are the people partial to all the same information as me and you and yet still indifferent. I dropped out of my old career partly because I didn't want to take the vax; I got hounded by family and friends for more than a year until they gave up. My brother, who was aware of these issues, who I had conversations with about this, took it no questions asked and carried on like it was nothing, I suppose he had no other choice. I had a friend who I deemed rational enough to understand and even after I explain these things to him the ultimate response I got was "ok but why do you care so much? You can't really do anything about it." My experience might be skewed partly since the community I'm part of doesn't have as deep ties with the rest of my country but the whole thing made me realise that a lot of people, despite signalling otherwise, really have zero conception of the greater good in their minds. They literally have no acquaintance with that idea as anything more than a social signal or token you're supposed to flash to be a normal person which to me is a lot worse than just being manipulated.
Zeus comes across as very insecure; re-iterating again and again his supreme power, when no one is questioning it.
>>22041811I disagree. The night journey of Book 10 is great, no disagreement there. But Books 11-15 provide a steady build up until the crescendo after Patroclus enters the war. I'd say Books 1-9 are repetitive there's a lot of back and forth between the Achaeans and the Trojans. Hope is restored, all hope is lost, hope is restored, etc. In Books 11-15, despite the tug of war that is still going on, the Trojan advance is inexorable, evidence by the declining amount of space that the Greeks are left between the attacking Trojan army and their ships.Once Patroclus enters the war in Book 16 though all bets are off. From then on there is no complaint of boredom.
>>22043413idk I would agree, book 1-9 are quite more varied, it's not just fighting either, in fact there's the build up to book 5 with Diomedes going super saiyan, the catalogue of the ships, two duels, Odysseus' cunning in full display saving Agamenon's failed shenanigans, Hektor's personal trip to Ilion and his wife, Zeus' putting other gods in their place and book 9's long speeches11 to 15 has its juice but it's quite flatter, the gods are for the most just butthurt watching Zeus having fun from afar, the action is restricted to a smaller area
>>22043516respect, but not agree
>>22043384I think he's just fed up with all the retards wasting his time
>>22043384You are correct - he’s constantly threatening to slap a bitch but Hera and Athena are always looking around for other Olympians who might be able to tag team him.Also there’s at least one conversation between Zeus and Poseidon earlier in books 4 or 5 where Zeus implies that a fight between them wouldn’t be a blowout victory on Zeus’ part.
>>22043384I think at least to some extent, if not primarily, this can be explained by the context of the oral tradition of the Iliad. afaik no bard ever recited the whole thing in one go, but people would recite large sections at one time or another. and so naturally one might repeat lines that actually make sense in the progression of the story, and also help the bard remember what lines follow.
>>22043623I think there’s a conversation between Hera and Poseidon where Poseidon says that said fight would be a blowout in Zeus’ favor. I’d tend to trust this conversation more, since it is said out of Zeus’ earshot by gods that would rather things be otherwise. … but maybe Poseidon was just exaggerating to get out of defying Zeus like Hera wanted.>>22043741This is interesting, thanks anon.
>>22037803Hector is a patriot while Achilles is bound by steppe aryan honor culture
Today is Book 9. The “Achilles come back” book.
>>22045376Also >Hector. My retarded brother cant do anything and whole army wishes him dead>lost a fight against man whose wife he stoleBut achilles is no crybaby either, anyone'd be miffed if someone took everything you earned and gave it to others who did nothing. Agamemnon should himself beg to Achilles simce he insulted him, I hope he does I know they make up but sadly I dont think Agamemnon will.
>"Kill Agamemnon. Behead Agamemnon. Roundhouse kick Agamemnon off the Achaean wall. Slam dunk Agamemnon's sons into the house of Hades. Crucify filthy Agamemnon. Defecate in Agamemnon's food. Launch Agamemnon into the Tartarus. Roast Agamemnon on a spit. Toss Agamemnon into an active volcano. Urinate into Agamemnon's wine. Twist Agamemnon's head off. Report Agamemnon to Apollo. Karate chop Agamemnon in half. Curb stomp pregnant Agamemnon's wives. Trap Agamemnon in quicksand. Crush Agamemnon between two boulders. Feed Agamemnon to dogs. Feed Agamemnon to crows. Stomp Agamemnon's skull with bronze toed boots. Cremate Agamemnon on a pyre. Lobotomize Agamemnon. Drown Agamemnon in the wine-dark sea. Kick old Agamemnon down the trench. Slice Agamemnon with a bronze sword." - Achilled suggested calmlydamn Achilles, it's just a war bride
>monday 15th>book 6This, pic related, is one of my favourite scenes in the epopeebased or cringe?
>>22045415> Agamemnon should himself beg to Achilles simce he insulted himThis is literally Book 9. But, alas, it’s too late. A stitch in time saves nine.
>>22045465based, it's one of the parts where I know many lines by heart(almost)δαιμονίη μή μοί τι λίην ἀκαχίζεο θυμῷ, οὐ γάρ τις μ'ὑπὲρ αἶσαν ἀνὴρ Αΐδι προϊάψει, μοῖραν δ'οὔ τινά φημι πεφυγμένον ἔμμεναι ἀνδρῶν, οὐ κακὸν οὐδὲ μὲν ἐσθλὸν ἐπὴν τὰ πρῶτα γένηται, ἀλλ'ἐς οἶκον ἰοῦσα τὰ σ'αὐτῆς ἔργα κόμιζε, ἱστόν τ'ἠλακάτην τε καὶ ἀμφιπόλοισι κέλευεν ἔργον ἐποικέσθαι, πόλεμος δ'ἀνδρέσσι μέλεσει πᾶσι μάλιστα δ'ἐμοὶ τοὶ Ἴλιον ἐγγεγάασιν
Stand strong fellow sufferers, read page after page an don't panic in your heart to read scene after scene of battles and combat, I don't want to see you filtered here
>>22045637You have successfully rallied the frogposters! There is no escape! We must defend the ships!
>>22039999Here anonI just finished book 6. Will catch up tonight.
On to book 15Who is your favourite god? Why is zues thought of most powerful?
>>22046375oldest son of Kronos(yeeted into the abyss)he's kinda explicit even when they are about to throw hands with Poseidon and he tells the latter to fuck off back to the sea or the olympus, the latter is also a son of Kronos but younger
A comparison of my favorite description so far:Fitzgerald:>Athena came, kindling the fight, for Zeus >who views the wide world, as his humor changed, >had sent her down to stiffen the Danaans. >As when from storm-lit heaven he bends a rainbow, >omen of war to mortal men, or omen >of a chill tempest, pelting flocks and herds, >and ending the field work of countrymen, >so, folded in a ragged cloud of stormlight, >Athena entered the Akhaian host. The use of "stormlit" / "stormlight" do describe Athena is incredible, you get a real sense of how she's meant to be depicted (often being covered in a cloud and flashing lightning, but "stormlight" really drives it home in my minds eye). Fagles translates the first portion a little better imo:Fagles:>down like a lurid rainbow Zeus sends arching>down to mortal men from the high skies. a sign of war>or blizzard to freeze the summer's warmth and put a halt>to men's work on the face of the earth and harry flocks->so shrouded round in a lurid cloud came Pallas now>and dove in the Argive ranks to fire up each man"lurid rainbow" adds color and flavor, and I prefer it to Fitzgerald--but "lurid cloud" doesn't do as much for me as "stormlight". Another description of Athena I like a lot:Fagles:>and down their ranks the fiery-eyed Athena bore>her awesome shield of storm, ageless, deathless –>a hundred golden tassels, all of them braided tight>and each worth a hundred oxen, float along the front.>Her shield of lightning dazzling, swirling around her,>headlong on Athena swept through the Argive armies,The aegis she has is a shield that seems to be a literal storm (or at least, cloud covered and wreathed in lightning) and is inspiring to view.
>>22046435Actually in order of age it’s Hades>Poseidon>Zeus
>>22047607in the Iliad in book 15 Zeus explicitly rebukes him by telling him he's the oldest of the two, but apparently in other sources the order is inverted? I didn't know thisI speed this word to you from storming Zeus.He commands you to quit the war and slaughter now,go back to the tribes of gods or down to your bright sea!But if you will not obey his orders, if you spurn them,he threatens to come here in person, fight you down,power against power. Avoid his grasp, he warns.He claims he is far greater than you in striking force,he is the first-born too!....
>>22047645Here’s what I was able to find:>The real order of the 1st Generation by birth (pre-eaten) is: Hestia, Hades, Demeter, Poseidon, Hera, & then Zeus/Post-Eaten: Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Hades, & then Hestia.>Hestia is considered as the 1st & the last because she was born 1st, but regurgitated last, so through this way she would be the eldest & youngest child. Zeus was the last child to be born, but was never swallowed. He was hidden until grown, where he then forced his Father to release his siblings. They returned in reverse order they were born.
>>22047645In this way Zeus is both the alpha and the omega of the original generation of the earthly gods, and from there he births the second generation of gods which each represent post-civilisational developments. I found this fascinating.
>>22047645>>22047744>>22047758Rhea gave birth to the Hades, Poseidon, Zeus in the order "Hades, [other Gods], Poseidon, [other Gods], Zeus". Zeus is the last. Kronos then ate all of the Gods except Zeus. Zeus then made Kronos puke them up. Thus, Zeus is the youngest (born last) and the oldest (they're "re-birthed" by Kronos vomiting them up).A similar tripartition works with Odin, who is simultaneously the oldest being in existence and also the youngest of the three brothers (the other two being Vili and Ve). It's a Skyfather thing.
>>22047770nice, I guess this settles it, I'm reading Hesiod before the Odyssey
Right, I agree with this. What I was getting at though is that it's noticeable to me how the first generation of gods all represent domains that existed in the world of primordial man, whereas the second generation, Zeus' children, all rule over areas of life born after the advent of civilisation. It lends credence to the hypothesis that mythology, rather than arbitrary stories, is deep anthropology preserved through symbolic ancestral memory insofar as it is the development of man's self-consciousness as separate from the world.Kronos's(time) children:>Zeus - sky (all-father)>Hera - birth (all-mother)>Poseideon - sea>Demeter - spring/harvest>Hades - death/underworld>Hestia - home/hearthZeus' children:>Hephaestus - craft/techne>Ares - war and violence>Athena - wisdom and strategy>Apollo - mathematics and music>Artemis - the hunt>Hermes - communication and travel>Dionysus - wine
woops used wrong image first time round
Today is Book 10 of the Sillysad. The night quest.
>>22049480I read it last night. Very Assassin’s Creed.Also, Diomedes dgaf, he WILL murder you in his sleep.
Could Diomedes defeat Achilles?
>>22049546Diomedes(forma original) < Achilles(forma original) < Diomedes(forma empoderato por Atena) < Achilles(forma de gran ira)
>>22049575Wouldn't the wisdom of Athena be even more effective against someone in rage?
>>22049575Based take from Hispanic anon, once Achilles goes Aristeia-Saiyajin, he is unbeatable by a mortal.
Frens Patracus took me over and Ive read upto 22
>>22049502Yeah, Book 10 is a cool break from the repetitiveness of the Iliad.Also, I pictured Dolon looking like that old Donald Duck meme Dolan.
I've never read the Iliad. Any anons wanna share their perspective on how the characters view the gods? Do they revere them as all powerful like the abrahamic god or more akin to having an extremely powerful ruler? Do they joke about them, are there sceptics or haters?
>>22050343Iliad is my first greek book, god are very human yet they think themselves wiser, but fight among themselves for little things, and are swayed by anything if they want, characters give them respect and even though Zeus work for opposite side they never admonish him but other gods sometimes are harmed, but never made fun of outright nit yet.Zeus is decnt enough I had predeliction that he was menece but he is alright, and if you consider him with Cronus his father he is better no comparision. As some anon said previously to reply to reply to my post , Cronus is uncivilized and Zeus is civilized he has his problems but I looked at Cronus's history and he ate his own kids. Thus the famous Saturn eating his own child oil paintI dont know but if anyone of you see Skallagrim and lindibeige, but reading this I see how prominent spesrs are and how swords have taken limelight away, those guys videos I remebered whole way till now whenever spesr comes up in Iliad. Also im gonna complete it whole today sorry for that but I really wanna talk mare and I will as you guys move forward, some scenes exude such brootherhood, I wish I had such friends.
>>22050506Thanks for your insight drunkanon.
>>22050343I wouldn't say any of them are depicted as haters, exactly, as they do seem appreciative of the glory that they receive, which they believe ultimately comes from the gods. they have a lot of reverence for them, but at the same time think that the gods are ultimately self-interested and will do whatever they are inclined to do. in book 24, Achilles talks with Priam, the man whose son he killed in revenge, and tells him that mortals suffer while the gods live carefree. and basically that at one time Zeus will give a man either a mix of good and bad fate, or a purely bad fate - whatever he and the other gods will. there are also a few instances where people say that the gods are conjuring up evil by causing the war to play out the way it is. Hector in book 7 Hector says that Zeus is κακὰ φρονέων, which literally means something like "pondering evils", in orchestrating the war
>>22050523Thanks anon, that's quite helpful. Also, did they see the gods as part of a single pantheon as we do today? It just feels a little strange to think about how they'd fight under a god against basically another member of the same family.
>>22049546Achilles was considered the greatest warrior in the known world. Outside of divine intervention I'd say him being defeated is possible technically but it's improbable realistically. Also fun fact, Ajax the lesser is considered the second best spear fighter after Achilles. Or maybe that's a euphemism for fucking. I hardly know the language or history enough to know if they were having a giggle describing him.
>>22050612if I understand what you're asking, yes the gods are all part of a complicated lineage, but they do sometimes have conflicts with one another. there are many moments in the Iliad where one god wills one thing but another another thing. for instance, in book 3 Athena tries to help Menelaus to kill Paris, but Aphrodite saves Paris at the last second. also, in book 1, Thetis (sea nymph) asks Zeus to help her son Achilles, and Zeus is initially reluctant to engage in the war because he fears of Hera, his wife, getting upset and quarreling with him.but I wouldn't exactly say the mortal characters "fight under" one god or another in some staunch way. some priests, for instance, will be in charge of the temple of some god, but even still they and people in general worship all the gods. it's the gods themselves that choose the sides of mortals, for one reason or another. also in book 1, for instance, Apollo starts killing tons of Achaeans because Agamemnon abducted the daughter (Chryseis) of one of his beloved Trojan priests (Chryses). though if Apollo had a temple in Sparta (Greece) for instance, and the same thing happened, there'd be no reason to assume that he wouldn't have done the same against the Trojans. and it's not like Agamemnon did this in spite of Apollo
>>22050740>in spite of Apolloto spite Apollo*
>>22050740Ah thanks anon. That clears up a few doubts I had.
>>22050519Haven't drank since long, just phonefagging
>>22050343One thing that I'm surprised by is the lack of respect that Greeks have for the gods in their actions.On the one hand, yes, they entreat Zeus and hope for his favor and believe that Zeus' favor will genuinely help them win. it's not like they profane Zeus.On the other hand, not long into the Iliad the Greeks become convinced that Zeus is on the Trojans' side and as a result the Greeks ... just keep fighting? If the most powerful god was against your endeavor, wouldn't you be a little more hopeless? I can't imagine the Israelites going to war, discerning that God was on the side of their enemies, and still fighting it out just to see how it ends.
>>22051609I think it's more of a difference of belief. Greek gods do as they will while humanity would do as they will. If Zeus was against you it was still on you to do what you were fated to do. In this case, fight a war. Whereas in the Abrahamic faiths everything is ordained by God. If God wasn't with you then you weren't supposed to do it. I'm pretty sure this comes down to the fact that destiny and fate and what-have-you in Greek myth wasn't tied to a particular deity as gods too had fates of their own. So you simply kept on trucking since whatever was going to happen was going to happen regardless of the will of the gods.
>>22051645Good point. I was personally reconciling the two by comparing the capriciousness of the Greek gods with the steadfastness of the God of Israel. If Zeus is against you today, he might be for you tomorrow after he has a good lovemaking sess with Hera. Therefore, keep fighting until the tide turns in your favor again.If the God of Israel is against you, there's probably some more grounded reason for it and he's not just going to change his mind and favor you the next day if you've done nothing to change.
>>22051663That's also pretty good. The Greek gods were notoriously finicky. Like the difference between your drunk uncle forgetting why he was throwing empty cans at you and your cranky grandpa silently judging you for your choices and withholding inheritance.
>>22051703Topkek anon, topkek
>>22049575If you are from latam is it true you all love dragonball z?
I'm six books in and I don't understand why the gods are so unwilling to help the Greeks. Based on my notes,gods who have helped Troy:AphroditeAresApolloHephaestusArtemisLetoBellonaThetisZeusGranted, Ares is said to go back and forth, Zeus is only helping temporarily and Thetis would presumably be Greek aligned if Achilles wasn't throwing a shit fit. Now here's the gods who have helped the Greeks:AthenaHeraSo, nobody except the losers in the judgement of Paris. Everyone else is either neutral or supporting Troy, it seems like. Maybe they think that destroying a city is disporportionate retribution for a kidnapping? Are the Greeks, dare I say, in the wrong?
>>22053040Because Troy were very pieous toward the Gods, I think, only Agamnenon was pieous towards Zeus, on the other side Achilles and Diomedes were haughty, specially Achilles
Book 11 today, the beginning of the Trojan advance :’(
>>22053040Greeks also gain Poseidon, which you’d rather have than pretty much any god on the Trojan side, excepting Zeus.
>>22053745it's so fucking over Argive sisters...
Why don't the Trojans just give Helen back? Everyone in Troy seems to hate Paris and want him dead so much it's actually funny. Just force him to let her go.
>>22054636Isn't Paris Priam's son? That's like asking an American "why don't you force Hunter Biden to give up drugs and hookers."
I am starting to hate this nigga Nestor so much>if only i was le strong like b4>oh when i was your age I couldve done this and that>bla bla blacan this boomer fucking die already
>>22054636the cause of war then was about Helen but after that breach of the pact(menelaos wins over paris) it was an entirely different scenario, Danaans were pretty much set on after that to wage war and trojans couldnt do anything much but accept
>>22054914>enters Nestor with his long and boring flashback of glory daysnever felt this good to skip a wall of text
>>22054921Wait what? Didn't the break of the pact happen after 10 years of already waging war? How were they not "set" on the war yet? I often think while reading this that it really doesn't sound like they're in the tenth year of the war but the first.
I'm done with book 10, but honestly i think i dont have a clear idea why the war (really) started and what is the reason behind the fight between Achilles and Agamenon. I think i read poorly the first books and then just follow along.Other than that i love Diomedes. Loved book 10 and encounter of spies in the battlefield.It seems to me that in the fights each hero "respects" the turn of each other in the battlefield. Meaning that it appears to me that the fights between them happen like in turns?? Similar to an RPG? Again, don't know if i'm reading poorly as i thit with the first couple of books.I will re read the first books later today to make sure i grasp the whole story and the disputes behind the heroes.
>>22055048I apologize for not clarifying enough, what I meant was the agreement they made when they set out to settle to avoid an all out war, a duel between Paris and Menelaos, just when the Akhaians were outside Troy's gates.
>>22055153tl;dr Achilles and Agamemnon get two hot bitches as loot, gods get mad, priest tells Agamemnon the only way to make the gods not angry is to give back his hot bitch, Achilles brought him the guy who said this so now Agy is mad at Achilles and wants his bitch from him when he has no right to take her.
>>22055153>Akhaians brought home some daughter of one of Apollo's favored and faithful priest>the father of said captive came and begged Agamnenon and the Akhaian army to release his daughter>Agamnenon tells him to fuck off>priest prays to Apollo>Apollo rains arrows of devastating shit and piss missiles to poor Akhaians for straight 9 days(or 10 idk)>Thetis, mother of Akhilleus, tells Akhilleus why this plague is happening and instructs him what he must do to appease Apollo's rage - that is, ask Agamnenon to give up the priest's daughter>enter Akhilleus convincing Agamnenon about the said priest's daughter>Agamnenon tells Akhilleus to fuck off and mind his own business.. mocks him and threatens him to steal Akhilleus' girl(i dont rlly know what made Agamnenon to respond like this)>...conversation gets heated, Akhilleus almost kills Agamnenon had Athena not intervened>Akhilleus cries to his mamma Thetis>Thetis asks daddy Zeus to punish bad boy Agamnenon for shaming his boy Akhilleus10 books later..>Akhilleus sipping wine watching Agamnenon fuck up
What did being a bastard child mean back then? It seems like every time a bastard son is mentioned they're treated with the same honour/respect as any other warrior who wass a legitimate child. Also how did marriage work at that time?
>>22055239It meant the same thing as it does today, I think biggest difference was you didn't inherit anything. I don't think sex out of wedlock was as frowned on as in Christian influenced societies especially if it was with a slave so a bastard wasn't necessarily seen as shameful. Just guessing I'm not an expert on greek culture
>>22055239generally it will mean son of X but of a concubine/slave woman not the wife
>>22055153The war started because:>goddesses at a party>discord personified throws apple labeled "to the fairest">Athena, Hera, Aphrodite all think the apple is for them>call Paris to decide who is the fairest (i forget why they called Paris of all people)>each promises Paris a reward if he picks her>Athena: wisdom in battle>Hera: huge kingdom>Aphrodite: most beautiful woman>coombrained Pairis chooses Aphrodite (even though with Athena's gift he could have gotten the other two imo)>Aphrodite gets him Helen>Menelaus already married to Helen>back before they were married everyone wanted to marry Helen so her father (I think) made everyone swear to defend the marriage of whomever actually married her so that's why all these other nations join in the fightingBut if you were listening to Homer sing you already knew all this which is why he doesn't spell it all out explicitly
>>22055411Tyndareus or however you spell his name wanted to turn a bunch of the people down but they were very powerful people so he couldn't think of a way to respectfully get them to accept that he didn't want them there and Odysseus came up with the idea of the oath so that they wouldn't all go apeshit.
The idea you can stab a god with a spear, not a magic spear but a regular ass spear, and hurt them is shocking to me. I've never seen the Greek gods portrayed as being that vulnerable.
>>22056036them 1200 BC rules be hittin different ong
>>22056036Gods are just humans.
>>22055169Thanks crass anon
> Now the Lord of the Great Plains, Agamemnon, > hit one with a spear-cast in the chest> above the nippleWhat did he mean by this? This is like the eighth mention of nipples in the Iliad.
>>22056497Well you know where nipples are, don't you? That's why.
>>22055155No, I understand you, I've just been constantly wondering what was going on the past 9 years while reading the text.
>>22055239Meant natural heir but not lawful heir. I don't think there was any shame attached to it such as in the Christian sense as the other anons pointed out. They were still expected to fight in wars and had class privileges over serfs and so on. I find the treatment of bastards in pagan contexts Greece and Japan quite interesting.
>>22056189Other way round, these men are called godlike and nothing like the men of Homer's day over and over if you noticed.
There's a lot of repeating numbers here don't you think, above all 9, 9 days, 9 years, bit also 10 gifts and so and so, I think there's a reason for this repeating pattern wash to you think, has anyone a theory as to why this is? I'm gonna shoot my shot, and say it's an allegory for the initiated, more obvious on the Odyssey, but I think it's also present here, like the hermetic legacy the Greeks got from Egypt, though never explicitly stated, very common to read it on this ancient stories.
Ok so Ive read it all But there is no mention of horse or attack on Troy where is it? In Odyssey?
>>22057666It's briefly mentioned in the Odyssey but the story is told to us in full by Virgil in his Aeneid
Since we're about halfway now:https://strawpoll.com/polls/40ZmqV6bMZa
>>22057932I’m the first to vote for Odysseus? Give me a break.
>>22057999He was my third choice anon. But I had to go with bigguy4u Ajax because imagine being so based you keep a manlet archer under your shield to snipe fags running away.
>book 14why is Zeus afraid of Night(Nyx)?
>>22058184it's more like awe and respect, i.e held himself from doing anything improper to Her
>>22057932Are people really voting for Diomedes just because of the book in which he went globlin mode?
>mfw Zeus is just one of them dudes that is the son of a bad dad and a bad husband and it messed him up because he had a bad role model and he’s doing his best, and he’s doing better than his dad, but you can’t ask him to be perfect because he’s playing the best he can with the hand he was dealt
>>22058257He's been pretty cool so far but I was expecting more votes for Agamemnon.
>>22058434I can't imagine anyone voting for Agabadleader
Now that we're halfway through the Iliad:1. What assumptions did you have about the Iliad that turned out to be disproven?2. What did you not expect that you like about the Iliad?
>>220586941. None, I read the 50-page introduction.2. The beautiful similes of nature. The entire "epic" feeling in general caught me off guard.
Is Achilles a gay?
>>22058839If I read correctly, a couple chapters ago it literally said he and Patroclus each slept with a different girl in different beds... I'm starting to think the chuds were right and this whole flaming Achilles thing was another fake homo appropriation.
>>22058219>awe and respectSeems not like it, I think he's legitimately afraid of the powers of Nyx, he just can't let away Hypnos who hid in his mother's cave(Nyx) just because he holds her in "awe and respect". In someway, there's something in Nyx Zeus just can't risk to fuck with
>>22058694>What assumptions did you have about the Iliad that turned out to be disproven?assumption - boring and repetitive, although it sometimes is like a good 30% of the chunk, I didn't expect I would be hooked with the power dynamics at play among the Olympians>What did you not expect that you like about the Iliad?Gods are just as capricious(or even more) as mortals
>>22058927the greek says "ἅζετο γὰρ μὴ Νυκτὶ θοῇ ἀποθύμια ἕρδοι", ἄζομαι can mean to fear/reverence but Nyx isn't the object, it says "fear lest (he) do something ἀποθύμιον to swift Night", ἀποθύμιος means something like hateful/disagreeablethis actually reminds me of when he addresses Poseidon and tells him to fuck off, later he says it's good for men that they didn't actually get into a fight, so maybe something similar is implied, i.e he could take Nyx but it would be quite a sweat and problematic
>>22058988>but it would be quite a sweatWhat did he mean by this?
>>22058764>The beautiful similes of natureI've not really liked these.>Diomedes spear pierced the man's skull, a fair distance above his nipple>and his brains sprayed out the back of his head.>Imagine a lion closing in on his prey, a deer.>The lion bites the front of the deer's head,>and its brains spray out the back of its head.
>>22058694>What assumptions did you have about the Iliad that turned out to be disproven?I thought that there would be less assumed knowledge required. Homer doesn't tell you anything about the gods or the origin of the war. I don't blame him, I just didn't think there would be so much assumed of the reader.>What did you not expect that you like about the Iliad?I must say that I'm not loving the Iliad. However, there are some unique aspects of the Iliad that I appreciate. For one, Homer's choice of timeline is quite counter-intuitive. This is a decade-plus long war, and he only shows you a few day span 10 years into the war. He doesn't even show you the resolution? This is some independent thinking in his choice of framing the narrative. Second, I like how complex the weave is of the motivations of the characters. For example: Zues is helping the Trojans because Agamemnon took Achilles bride and Achilles' mom entreated Zeus on Achilles' behalf to go against Achilles' own army, despite the fact that Zeus' wife favors Achilles' army. I feel like most books I read have very simple motivations, but the motivations of the characters of the Iliad reflect the complexity of real life.
>>22059177I meant "break a sweat"
>>22047910Remember, anon, that Chronos (time) and Kronos (Zeus's father) are different figures, though it is a common misconception.
>>22059351Nta, but did not know. Thanks
>>22059501As far as we know, the confusion started all the way back in Roman times, so it is hard to blame anons for not knowing. I was a bit disappointed when I found out.
>>22059351>>22059501>>22059574The greeks often conflated the two (according to Plutarch) and its more attested to them being the same being than it is the other way around. Or at least has been for just over 2k years since the Romans co-opted it all. I think Hesiod has them as being the same being as well
Homer seems to have a very "might makes right" worldview. The only characters he has clear contempt for are Thersites and Paris and it's mostly because they're lousy warriors. Meanwhile if you're a badass like Achilles, you can be forgiven for anything, even sabotaging his own side by turning Zeus against them. At least the scene with Hector's wife and kid convinced me the poet isn't soulless. Hector is really the only hero who isn't a monster by modern standards. Paris is a rapist, the Greeks are rapists, plus they're planning to kill or enslave every person in Troy. I know, we must be able to look past our modern moral standards, but this sure requires a lot more of that than most ancient stories I've read.In general the way war is portrayed just seems naive and absurd. The strongest fighters are all royalty, I guess because of their superior blood lol, to such an extent that it almost seems like the war is solely between them. Like, Achilles commands fifty ships of men! I don't know how many men that is, but all of them together have got to make more difference on the battlefield than even the strongest individual fighter, yet it's framed as if Achilles himself is the real asset because he's just so fearsome. Is this because you get more glory from personally stabbing people than from being a good general? Maybe I could overlook this absurdity for the sake of entertainment, but I'm not getting much of that, so I do get distracted by these things.
>>22060758>The only characters he has clear contempt for are Thersites and ParisBro, homer bagged all over Dolon and that one lopsided Achaean guy from the first or second book that tried to talk smack to Agamemnon. He hates cowards, not the weak.
>>22060758can't really enjoy the book if you aren't thinking about carnivore on carnivore violence and having a taste for raw meat, these men were wolves
>>22062153Who would battle without any armor?
by the end we should discuss which death was most brutal
>>22058694>1. What assumptions did you have about the Iliad that turned out to be disproven?I literally only watched the movie Troy and had a high school Ancient Greek & Roman history course for prior knowledge. I assumed it was the men driving the story for the most part but it has certainly been the Gods meddling >2. What did you not expect that you like about the Iliad?I am a fan of the gruesome combat. Did not expect soldiers getting their jaws and nipples speared and bleeding out crying for mom. Also I do love the nuance of Homer describing the background of the fighters maybe as they die or are about to die, either way it paints a picture that this is a battle for the ages
>>22043537this is one of my favorite paintings of all time. If I was armenian or russian i would probably like this painting even more
>Odysseus and Diomedes sneak into the Trojan camp to spy on them>instead they just ambush some guys and steal horsesDid I miss something? Did they find out all they needed to know from Dolon and decided to sneak into the camp anyway just for funsies?
>>22063955What does it have to do with Armenia or Russia?
>>22063983The actions they took mostly reflect what they found out from Dolon. They were able to kill the king of a reinforcement ally troop. That is meaningful.
>>22063470this is one of my favorite paintings of all time. If I was armenian or russian i would probably like this painting even more
>>22058988nigga i think it's fair to concede the fight to Nyx if they ever get in a fight. why do u hold Zeus on so much might? Nyx is literally a primordial Goddess, little stormcloud bro dont want any of that smoke, she'd devour lightning bolts in encompassing darkness
>>22060758not withstanding countless predator-prey metaphors, it really has become repetitively mind-numbing and I just skim over it at this point
>>22062153this is one of my favorite paintings of all time. If I was armenian or russian i would probably like this painting even more
I'dd be super suspicious of Odysseus. People never stop talking about how tricky he is
>>22064905The benefits of having maxed out charisma.
>>22063995the dude in the painting looks Russian or Armenian
>>22064905I think he's referred to more as sensible and strategic while still loyal to the Achaeans rather than "devious-devising" such as Kronos.