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St. Anthony Edition

What Orthodox literature have you been reading lately? Planning on attending Divine Liturgy on Sunday?

Recommended Literature
>The Orthodox Study Bible
>EOB (New Testament):
https://ia601509.us.archive.org/9/items/new-testament-the-eastern-greek-orthodox-bible/New%20Testament%20%28The%20Eastern%20Greek%20Orthodox%20Bible%29.pdf
>The Orthodox Church by Kallistos Ware
>The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware
>The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church by Vladimir Lossky
>God’s Revelation to the Human Heart by Fr. Seraphim Rose
>The Soul After Death by Fr. Seraphim Rose
>The Orthodox Veneration of the Mother of God by St. John Maximovich

https://youtu.be/icjexnL6rI4
https://youtu.be/3VNdXMFleBM
>>
A good little work on Islam from the Orthodox perspective by the hieromartyr Daniel Sysoev. Making Muslims so angry over his success in converting them to Christianity that had to kill him:
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/world/islam-orthodox-view/

St. John of Damascus on Islam
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx
>>
>>19460369
Friends, pray for me.
So I can leave my old life behind and live for Christ.

Please remember those who are here, in this board, learning about what is to follow God. I am one of them.
>>
Any thoughts on the Thomas Hopko books? I'm reading the first one since I've been going to the nearby ROCOR church.
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>>19460444
I will be sure to include you in my prayers, anon.
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>>19460662
I’ve read him here and there in the past and found him nothing but helpful honestly, I enjoyed in particular the sections on worship and liturgy. It helped me grasp it much better in the beginning.
https://www.oca.org/orthodoxy/the-orthodox-faith
>>
>>19460369
>muh orthodoxy
Latest incel LARP
>>
>Gregory Palamas
>Propounds a Platonic theology
>Denounces Plato

Explain this
>>
>>19460738
>Latest incel LARP
>>
Roman Catholic here. Just a reminder that you WILL go to hell for being Orthodox. Sorry, I love you but its the truth. You will burn for eternity by refusing the true Church. I say this out of love. Happy Thanksgiving, but you need to convert now.
>>
LMAO, 6 posts in and they're already raiding the thread. Amazing.
>>
>>19460758
Give me the best reason to become a Catholic. Recommend me one work.

With the centuries of doctrinal innovation and flaunting of tradition with papal supremacy, filioque, hoaxes like the donation of Constantine, literal idol worship by people like Pope Francis and the Pachamama idols, the homosexual infestation of the priesthood, frequent innovation in liturgy, etc. no one can become a Catholic and feel secure in their salvation
>>
>>19460789
Every church father is certain that you must submit to the Roman Pontiff to attain salvation. Seems good enough to me.
>>
>>19460779
It’s because down everyone knows that it is the one true Church that Jesus Christ inaugurated at Pentecost. No matter from what angle one looks at it from, it’s as clear as day—whether one attends services, participates in parish life, lives an Orthodox lifestyle, investigates the history or reads the Scriptures, they all point to Orthodoxy.
>>
>>19460811
Peter was clearly the first among the Apostles. The Pope was traditionally the first among equals, and Rome was seen as an important center of the Church from the beginning. All of this is uncontroversial. Since the 10th century though the bishops of Rome have chosen schisms, innovations and heresy over Orthodoxy.
>>
A great video that gives a lot of book sources, I learned alot:
https://youtu.be/jkmh68urI6A
>>
>>19460789
Judge them by their fruits
>>
>>19460410
Based. The Muslim could note cope with the truth. According to the other person who was in the church when it happened, he went out of the altar when the shooting started and was preaching to the Muslim.

Also enjoyed his work on Moses writing the Pentateuch but it's not in English.
>>
>>19460751
>implying Old Testament is Platonic
>implying Moses is platonic
Just read him, he doesn't quote philosophers but Holy Scripture. And he calls the Platonist system demonic iirc.
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>>19461330
>All this evidence points to direct influence from Greek writings, especially Plato's Laws, on the biblical legal tradition. Finally, it is argued that the creation of the Hebrew Bible took place according to the program found in Plato's Laws for creating a legally authorized national ethical literature, reinforcing the importance of this specific Greek text to the authors of the Torah and Hebrew Bible in the early Hellenistic Era.
https://www.routledge.com/Plato-and-the-Creation-of-the-Hebrew-Bible/Gmirkin/p/book/9780367878368

Makes you think...
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>>19460758
Then how is St. Gregory Palamas not in hell right now according to your church? The uniates venerate him as a saint with Vatican approval and he literally said many times that filioque is an invention of Satan. So is your church wrong on proclaiming who is a saint?
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>>19461369
>evidence points to
>it is argued
Anon...

Plato didn't see God's light directly, just speculated about it. Moses did experience God face to face and talked to Him like a friend.

"AND that you may learn that it was from our teachers—we mean the account given through the prophets—that Plato borrowed his statement that God, having altered matter which was shapeless, made the world, hear the very words spoken through Moses, who, as above shown, was the first prophet, and of greater antiquity than the Greek writers;"
- St. Justin Martyr
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>>19461369
The Greeks are just derivative of Moses.
>>
Are there any orthobros who want to participate in a denominational debate on discird this saturday at 3pm? It would be helpful to have 2
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>>19461517
>Galen was not entirely hostile. Both Plato and Moses, he reasoned, are superior to Epicurus, who ascribed all things, including seemingly purposive characteris-tics, to mere chance. But Plato was wiser than Moses in that his cosmogony included reference to the material cause and not only to the will of the creator in explaining the rationale for why things are as they are. Take the case of hair: why does hair on the top of the head grow continually, while the eyelashes stop growing at a fixed point? According to Galen, Plato's cosmogony in the Timaeus accounts for this difference better than does Moses' in Genesis. For Moses, as Galen understands him, the answer is simple, but unsatisfactory: eyelashes stop growing because God commanded them to do so. By contrast, Plato would counsel us to look to the physiological substratum of the eye-lashes, as well as their 'protective utility', for the explanation.' They grow as far as they need to do to serve their purpose and as far as the hard skin attached to the cartilage of the eyebrow will permit.

You guys remember that time Galen compared Plato to Moses and found the latter wanting?
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>>19461547
Spend your time going to Vespers instead
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>>19461316
>Also enjoyed his work on Moses writing the Pentateuch but it's not in English.
I hope to see these in English one day. That sounds like a highly interesting work.
>>
Anyone know any good things on typology?
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>>19461826
Yeah, the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Orthoniggers are getting real tiresome. Don't act like you're our brothers if you treat us like shit in our threads and when we commit the "'crime"" of trying to save you. Dumb unchristian homosexuals.
>>
>>19461968
>Dumb unchristian homosexuals.
Sounds like your priests
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>>19461547
>saturday
>>19461565
This.
>>
>>19461968
>commit the "'crime"" of trying to save you
Why bother if "invincible ignorance" is a thing and even heretics can be "saved"?
>>
>>19460758
Your Church defends pedophiles.
>>
>>19461626
Yeah it's a good short article.

Here's a fixed Google translate of it if anyone is interested.
https://pastebin.com/9C95vn8G

>The main arguments against the traditional point of view are as follows:

>1. In the Torah, two names of God are used - Yahweh and Elohim, which means that we have two sources before us;
>2. In the Pentateuch, there are recurring plots such as the two Creation stories, the recurring Flood stories, the story of Joseph, which also tells us of multiple authors;
>3. At the time of Moses there was no writing, and therefore he could not write what is attributed to him;
>4. The Jewish religion could not have evolved in the time of Moses to such a pure monotheism, which could only have arisen in the time of the kings;
>5. The text contains Arameisms that could enter the text only since the time of the Babylonian captivity and anachronisms that were impossible for Moses (Ex. 13:17 ; Gen. 14:14; Deut. 34: 1; Gen. 40:15);
>6. Moses could not talk about himself in the third person, talk about his virtues (Num. 12: 3) and write about his death (Deut. 34);
>7. Until the time of King Josiah, no one knew about the law of Deuteronomy, about the centralization of the cult (the people made sacrifices on the high places), and the very discovery of the book of the Law (2 Kings 22: 8-13 ) was the time when Deuteronomy was written.
>>
Is there a place for new orthodox people outside of discord, I honestly can't suffer all the catholic bickering
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>>19462278
Sjruruchunchun#9315
I'll send the server we're debating on. I need 2
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>>19463141
Thanks, I appreciate it
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>>19463176
Just go to church and talk to real people in real life instead?
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>>19463176
Do what >>19463632 said. Coffee time after liturgy or whatever equivalent events that your parish has are max comfy and full of great and friendly people from all my experiences. Last week I had a dude sperging to be about church councils, Plato and Aristotle for like a half an hour
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>>19460789
>Give me the best reason to become a Catholic. Recommend me one work.
Russia and the Universal Church by Vladimir Solvyov
>>
Bump
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>>19463176
there is nothing to be gained from Orthdox Discords, come to church or fellowship some time.
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>>19460758
>watching the new schism holy war play out on /lit/
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>>19464132
Catholics have been doing this shit for millennia now. They are deranged
>>
How does this post not deconstruct Catholicism? I ask because development of doctrine seems to open the door to the ability of any denomination to claim the same things Catholics claim?

>Calvinists can and should cite popes, not as infallible, but as leaders of our Church. Presbyterianism is the heir of the one Church that Rome ceded when they formally apostatized at the Council of Trent. Every pope prior to that was part of our Church, not the apostate church you belong to. Ever heard of the Development of Doctrine? As a challenge to the heresy of Rome, Calvinists needed to clarify the one true faith, leading to the clearer portrait we have today. We also have ministerial succession, which is taught by the Bible, leading from the apostles to all present day Presbyterians, guarding our faith. This succession came by way of Rome to the Anglican church to Presbyterian denominations throughout the world, guaranteeing we have the teachings of the apostles.
>>
>>19464612
>sidelines a crusade to sack Constantinople
>>
How do I venerate a saint?
Do I just look at the idol and feel happy?

I'm very scared of accidentally worshipping the saint, I don't want to go to hell
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>>19464930
icon*
>>
>>19464930
If you're serious, at first you might have pride towards saints or icons. I know I had it at first even though I intellectually I knew it was not an idol.
Think of it as kissing a picture of a loved one, except that with an icon the affection is truly transfered to the person in heaven, this is why icons have to be of a certain kind so they can act as a real representation of the saint and not something imaginary. We're supposed to be eternally with these people in Heaven after the resurrection, so they literally are a family to us.
>>
Bump
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>>19465423
Not him but am I supposed to completely reject all Catholic saints ordained after the schism? There are a couple who really did a lot to bring me into Christianity.
>>
>>19461398
Gregory Palamas grew up in a completely anti-Western culture, where he was not able to be exposed to the arguments against Eastern Orthodoxy in favour of Catholicism. In modern days, we would say he was in an "echo chamber", and even Barlaam was no fan of ours. Palamas was saved through invincible ignorance.

>>19462665
Invincible ignorance can be assumed to be almost completely absent nowadays in parts of the world with uncensored internet. The internet is like Pandora's Box, and is probably responsible for more damnation that any other inventions. It gives Satan a completely valid accusation against you: that you had the ability to know X, but chose not to look into it.
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>>19467291
Why do internet Catholics always claim to know exactly who is damned and who is saved?
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>>19467422
It’s the same sort of arrogance that fuels Prots too. They spring from the same soil
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>>19467422
I don't claim to know exactly who is damned and who is saved. Only God knows. I think it is obvious that the internet, as a widely available tool, damages all claims to invincible ignorance to those who have easy access to it. This is a pretty much unavoidable conclusion. It is, in fact, the Eastern Orthodox who claim that everybody outside of their church is damned, so don't think your projection escapes my notice.
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>>19467499
Sorry, what?
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>>19467517
Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus is qualified in the Catholic church, and unqualified in the Eastern Orthodox church. We believe in things like invincible ignorance and baptism of desire, which is exactly the type of thing we are discussing here. If you don't understand the difference between the EO and Catholic views on salvation, why bother responding to me?
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>>19467499
>It is, in fact, the Eastern Orthodox who claim that everybody outside of their church is damned
t. ignorant
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>>19467952
Never read the Fathers, huh, kiddo? They have some pretty interesting comments about this little know figure called the Roman Bishop and whether you can achieve salvation without him.
>>
How do I set my head straight and figure out if I'm not attracted to Orthodoxy just because of the "bells and smells"? It's almost like a meme in Christian circles. Am I being gaslit by Catholics?
>>
>>19468007
>Am I being gaslit by Catholics?
The answer is always yes. Their religion is predicated on changing things while claiming nothing ever changes. Look up their statements on the death penalty for instance. Its gaslighting: the religion.

The worst part is that they market their Talmudism as being intellectual.
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>>19467983
I’m well aware of what the Fathers wrote on this issue. Papal supremacy, infallibility and the universal jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome are innovations. The bishop of Rome was ‘merely’ primus inter pares.
>>19468007
>Am I being gaslit by Catholics?
Yes. Just look at how they are acting in this thread.
>>
>>19467952
Please elucidate the nuance to me, because I just had a discussion with an Eastern Orthodox yesterday (see >>19456718), where he said of a rural Indian child who followed the natural law carved in His heart to the best of his ability, but never had the opportunity to hear the gospel:
"If he is not baptised, then yes [he is damned to Hell for all eternity]. God is more than powerful to arrange the opportunity for him to hear the Gospel, yet in His providence chose not to do so for reasons only known to Him. This doesn't mean that you can somehow be saved by bypassing Christ's sacrifice and participating in it. You need to die with Christ to rise with Him. Otherwise baptism is worthless, and so is the cross, if you can somehow magically be saved without it. [...]
> then you accept invincible ignorance exists to a certain degree
Judgment depends on our actions and good deeds, if he followed his consciousness perfectly then he might escape suffering fully, like the unbaptized infants, but he will still never enter heaven."
Please feel free to correct this Eastern Orthodox anon, and I would appreciate. You do not believe that outside of your church, there is no salvation?

>>19468007
The main point of contention between being a member of one of the EO churches (which one is important, because the Russian Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox are in schism and deny communion to one another) and being an Eastern Catholic is the history of the authority and prerogatives of the bishop of Rome - whether he has universal jurisdiction (the ability to make decisions which affect other sees), and what it exactly means for him to be the "first among equals" or "first in honour". I highly suggest watching debates between prominent apologists (like the famous Erick Ybarra vs. Jay Dyer debate), reading up from a variety of scholarly sources (eg. both Orthodox and Catholic) on the history of the ecumenical councils, the Photian schism, the role of the Papacy in the first millenium, etc. Do the best you can. Even as a Catholic, I still continue to seek out discussions with EO, and surveys of the doctrine and writings of the early church, especially primary sources. It is much easier to be an EO (eg. you almost never face criticism regarding scandals, never have to defend the papacy, etc), so trust me when I say that I did not come to my decision lightly that the Catholic church is the true church.
>>
>>19468044
Honestly, I think it’s absurd to think that the God “who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:4) will be be damning massive amounts of people who have not had a chance to hear the Gospel but who have followed the law written on their heart their entire lives. One could perhaps find support for this notion from certain early apologists such as Justin Martyr:
>"We have been taught that Christ is the first-born of God, and we have declared above that He is the Word of whom every race of men were partakers; and those who lived reasonably are Christians, even though they have been thought atheists; as, among the Greeks, Socrates and Heraclitus, and men like them; and among the barbarians, Abraham, and Ananias, and Azarias, and Misael, and Elias, and many others whose actions and names we now decline to recount, because we know it would be tedious."

Also, I recently spoke with the priest at my church and he also made a remark that we can’t really know who God will save outside of the Church. I wish I had pressed him on this now to hear his reasoning. Orthodoxy is the fullness of Truth though. It may not be the case that every sick person who doesn’t go to the hospital dies but the hospital is clearly the best place for one to get well, both sooner and more completely. We don’t know what one’s chances are if they don’t go—it would be great if most people recovered without going, but we don’t know if most will, and it’s very likely most won’t. Only God knows. The Church is the hospital, Christ is the greatest possible physician for our souls.

If I get a chance to talk to the priest sometime soon I’ll try to ask more
>>
>>19468044
I will never be a Catholic. I wouldn't call myself Orthodox at the moment, because I am still at the doors, but outside of Catholicism's claims of authority, there is absolutely nothing Christ-like in the institutions, in most of the clergy, in most of the people who participate, in the liturgy, in the policies, or anything else. There is so much nonsensical filth that the Catholic church glazes over I cannot possibly think that it is the "true" Church of Christ. And I say this with the full knowledge that institutions are all corrupt to a degree, because men are flawed and corrupt themselves. I don't know anything about the theological ins and outs, but I know Catholicism from experience and when you tell me about your Papal pedigree and your other calls to authority, I say Matthew 7:20. Catholic nations are simply not Christian anymore.
>>
>>19468263
>Catholic nations are simply not Christian anymore
Please tell us of Russia, all ROCOR tithing feeds into Putin as its head.
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>>19468432
Tu quoque fallacy (and a false one at that)
>>
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What does this chart mean when it labels Søren Kierkegaard "Orthodox/Protestant"?
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>>19468634
>Russia is a legitimately Christian nation
OK Corky
>>
>>19468432
>I say this with the full knowledge that institutions are all corrupt to a degree, because men are flawed and corrupt themselves
My problem with Catholicism is the leadership's changes on doctrine and influence over the faith itself, which have nothing to do with what said corrupt leadership does with the money it receives from the lay, which I'm sure is just as filthy.
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>>19468826
Both were corrupted into Ishtar worship before the schism.
>>
19468853
stop spamming please, you're like a broken record
>>
>>19468853
>Ishtar
>>>/v/
>>>/jp/
>>
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>>19468877
picrel Satanic pagan Babylonian.
>>19468927
?
OK Corky
>>
>>19468780
>now have roughly 300 books on my 'want to read' list
great, now i just need another 10 years to read all this
>>
>>19468780
I doubt the maker of that chart even knows
>>
Thoughts on >>19467610?
>>
>>19469310
Makes sense. You all and prods are cut from the same cloth. To be clear both are going to hell. That's why Orthodox feel so guilty all the time and need to obsessively read the Fathers to justify their schism. You wouldn't need to make a general if you weren't looking for someone to change your mind.
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>>19469333
I don't think those were the kind of thoughts he was looking for...
>>
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>Under the proposed changes, confessional boxes, altars and classical sculptures will be replaced with modern art murals, and new sound and light effects to create “emotional spaces”.

>There will be themed chapels on a “discovery trail”, with an emphasis on Africa and Asia, while quotes from the Bible will be projected onto chapel walls in various languages, including Mandarin.

>The final chapel on the trail will have a strong environmental emphasis.

>In June, the Archbishop of Paris, Michel Aupetit, said these would “bring the cathedral into the 21st century while preserving its own identity in the spirit of the Christian tradition”.

>While Africa and Asia will have pride of place, Europe, the Americas and Oceania will either be less evident behind the apse or totally absent. The tour ends at a chapel dedicated to “reconciled creation”, namely environmentalism as set out in Pope Francis’ Laudato Si’ encyclical.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2021/11/26/notre-dame-risks-becoming-woke-disneyland-controversial-renovation/?s=09
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>>19469667
>the Archbishop of Paris, Michel Aupetit, said these would “bring the cathedral into the 21st century while preserving its own identity in the spirit of the Christian tradition”.
Ahahaha even the archbishop supports this?
>>
>>19468780
>Kierkegaard
He was huge influential on Berdyaev and Shestov. He was known in Russia earlier than in West.
t.Orthodox Russian
>>
Who should I read on atonement?
>>
>>19470243
St. Gregory Palamas Homily 16.
>About the economy of the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, and about the grace-filled gifts that have flowed through this, for those who truly believe in Him; and why God, who could in many ways free man from the tyranny of the devil, used this economy. This conversation was spoken on Holy and Great Saturday.

>"It was also necessary for the conqueror to be conquered by that nature which he had conquered, and for the cheat to be outwitted."

https://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2014/03/st-gregory-palamas-on-christs-sacrifice.html
https://imgur.com/a/gNfRQPj

Also this article.
http://www.rochesterorthodoxchurch.org/resources/texts-and-articles/what-christ-accomplished-on-the-cross/
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>>19468192
>we can’t really know who God will save outside of the Church
That's a modern talking point designed to soften the edges of Orthodox teaching. It's basically code for "most people will probably still be saved if they are "good"".
If you legitimately look at tradition, or even read the Gospel, baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation because it frees you from original sin and gives you the spiritual eyes to enter heaven. Even infants who are not baptized cannot enter into heaven (doesn't mean they suffer), not to speak of adults who have separated themselves from God by actual sins. Saying that God will save pagans if they lead "good lives" means God was powerless over their circumstances and couldn't spread the Gospel to them even though they were "good people", but it's simply that they were not ready to receive salvation and didn't want it, so God did not punish them more for rejecting the Gospel. This is actually how the fathers explain early infant death too, that God foresaw their will to do evil in the future, and cut their life short, to enact the greatest mercy possible for them.
Denying this is tantamount to denying original sin and the redemption at the cross, which a lot of Orthodox (in the West mostly) think we don't believe for some reason.
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>>19468044
>It is much easier to be an EO
Depends on what you mean by easier. In the sense that your conscience is light and you just have to believe established teaching then sure.
But with RC you can believe really whatever you want, it's you choosing theology and doctrine based on personal preference. Want to justify Nestorius and sympathize with him? That's fine. Want to be based tradcath extra ecclesiam nulla salus? That's fine too.
Basically perennialism where real truth is so beyond reach and there are only different contradictory forms available to the average person.
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I've been having a hard time with Orthodoxy these days bros. My church just completely tore itself apart. No one would listen to my priest, he wouldn't enforce any rules. But that's not what bothers me. What bothers me is the role of the bishops promoting fear of covid in the flock. I've seen their "covid safety" rules used to beat parishioners over the head with and make them feel excluded. The greek bishops in America convened a council that declared that there is no Orthodox religious exemption for the vaccine. This is patently false, as it's unlawful to do anything that harms the body and the vaccine is harmful to most if not all of the people who get jabbed. Regardless, it's mind-boggling that the Church (and I hesitate to capitalize that "C") would call together a council NOT pertaining to salvation and navigate the issue in such a worldly manner.

Where I've seen Jesus Christ acting most in the world has been outside the walls of the Orthodox Church. It's been very hard for me to see the people that have been going to church for 20 years at my parish act like this. It makes you question the sacraments. Of course, my priest says that almost no one comes in for confession. Maybe that's the reason why, but I know an old Greek woman who has gone to confession twice in her life and she is one of the most God-filled people that I have met.

There is still unfathomable Grace within the Orthodox Church. I've been to Athos two times and seen absolute angels on earth. I know what the grace of God can do. But I just can't say that there's not salvation and sainthood outside of Orthodoxy as well. Thanks for reading my blog, enjoy the icon of the Panagia (the first icon painted according to the monks of Dionysiou).
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roooootate attempt
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>>19470859
>I just can't say that there's not salvation and sainthood outside of Orthodoxy as well
That seems like classic demonic temptation, anon. The demons show you evil acts of Orthodox people and somehow from this you conclude that if other people act in a secularly good way, there is salvation for them and the sacraments are somehow false. Salvation isn't works based, otherwise even some rabbinical Jews will be saved. And there is no goodness except for Christ's, no man is righteous onto Himself, but only by participation in Christ's righteousness. In the end times there will be no war and there will be secularized/paganized world peace, but the catch is that it will be established by Antichrist.

Arianism was a worse crisis than covidism, literally all churches in the East were given over to Arians and the Orthodox revival started from a small house church made by St. Gregory the Theologian. I think it is secretly a blessing from God to expose all the ills which were hidden before it all started happening. God does allow turmoil for His Church precisely for this reason, just open the Old Testament.

>I know an old Greek woman who has gone to confession twice in her life and she is one of the most God-filled people that I have met
St. Mary of Egypt also received Christ's body only twice IIRC. For some people this is enough but the exception doesn't negate the rule.
>>
Hymns on Paradise — St Efrem the Syrian
>>
Here is the real truth about what happens to members of other denominations after death.
>Roman Catholics
Go to an infinite realm of courts where angelic judges determine whether they made it to heaven or not based on increasingly minute criteria in a process that is actually eternal.
>American Protestants
Go to Protestant Heaven, which is ruled by Ronald Reagan (pbuh) and in which there is no dancing or rock 'n' roll allowed and which mostly resembles a Florida retirement community.
>Mormons
Go go Mormon Hell, where they are forced to swim in fiery caffeinated beverages while demons shaped like Starbucks cups flail at them forever.
>JWs
Spend eternity going door-to-door in Hell bringing copies of The Watchtower to the world's most uninterested demons.
>>
>>19470887
I'm not concluding that the sacraments are false. Just that living a life walking with Jesus Christ is efficacious as well. Some of the most righteous people I know are protestants. They live by the Spirit of God, and I think they walk a fine and dangerous line because they don't have Holy Tradition, but Salvation is by faith. Do you really think that St Francis of Assisi is not with Christ in the Eschaton? Or Julian Norwich? Are all the Catholic miracles fake?
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>>19470859
Arn't churches generally filled with old people?
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>>19470983
When I went to liturgy I've seen only a few old people, some half of them were middle-aged (30-50), the rest was under 30; there were more people under 20 than old people. Also a handful of little kids and a couple infants. I don't know if Russian women look younger than average, but the stereotype that Russians dress very well is true so I may be off by a few years.
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>>19470905
>Go to an infinite realm of courts where angelic judges determine whether they made it to heaven or not based on increasingly minute criteria in a process that is actually eternal.
Kek.
>After debating this case - again - for twenty and seven hundred years, we can finally agree to sentence thee to Hel-
>Wait! How about article 35642 comma Y?
>Actually that changes everything. We start over!
>Please! Just send me somewhere! Can't I just go to Purgatory?
>(Do we tell him?)
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>>19470914
>walking with Jesus Christ is efficacious as well.
So one's created works can be a substitute for the uncreated works of the Holy Spirit imparted in the sacraments? Grace is absolutely necessary for salvation, and only God's direct works impart it. It is impossible to fully inhere in God's grace when your faith is corrupted. You are teaching works-based salvation.
Also, why do you place yourself as an arbiter of who is walking with Christ? We only have one way of determining this visibly, it is Orthodox faith and a sacramental life in the Church. Only these people are really walking with Christ. All others are foreigners to the ark of salvation.
Anyone who believes in the Holy Trinity but does not join the Orthodox Church is sinning against Christ's and the apostles' teachings, who prayed for unity and spoke against divisions based on doctrine or pride. All protestants engage in the mortal sin of heresy and this is what blocks their salvation, it's no different from being an unrepentant drunkard or fornicator, St. Paul even lists all of these sins together. Obeying the apostles and following their faith is a direct command of Christ. The apostolic faith is not a perennialistic system where you can believe basically anything you want about Christ and still be saved, it's the teaching of the holy fathers and holy councils, and even if an angel is to teach contrary to them, it is anathema.
“Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” (Luke 10:16)

>Do you really think that St Francis of Assisi is not with Christ in the Eschaton?
If he did not repent of his heresy before death, then he is not. We only know who is with Christ based on Orthodoxy proclaiming it by canonization (or Church-wide veneration before official canonization), not based on our personal notion of what sanctity is. "St." Francis was in heavy prelest by the way with his stigmata innovation stuff. If I think for example that William Lane Craig is a "godly man", it doesn't matter even if it is true based on his good works. He will perish for eternity if he does not drop his heresy of Christ not having a human soul and mind. It's the same with other protestants and Roman Catholics. The only RCs conceivably in heaven, aside from those who repented of it, are baptized infants who die too early to sin (or someone equivalent) and even this the RCs try to jeopardize by innovating the practice of not giving infants communion.
>Are all the Catholic miracles fake?
We don't really have to say they were fake. Demons can appear as angels of light and even as the Mother of God, which is what happened at Fatima for instance. The Theotokos would not teach false nonsense about purgatory and the "conversion" of Russia.
http://www.orthodox.org/Fatima.pdf
>>
>>19470914
>>19470859
>It makes you question the sacraments.
If you had an experience and this is the result of it, it is from the demons.
I am pretty sure any spiritual father will tell you this.
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>>19470730
Thank you, anon, this is just what I was looking for
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>>19471362
>If I think for example that William Lane Craig is a "godly man", it doesn't matter even if it is true based on his good works. He will perish for eternity if he does not drop his heresy of Christ not having a human soul and mind.
Such a shame what Craig has turned into. His work was very instrumental in my coming to Christianity but now, as you mention, he shills for old heresies condemned centuries ago, has claimed that Genesis 1-11 are ‘mytho-history’ and that there is no original sin lately. He has gone off the deep end. He has put philosophy and science as an idol
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>>19471362
You are just like the pharisees, abandoning the spirit of the word in favor of silly particulars that have no reality in the biographies of jesus. You have no way of verifying whether the roman catholic or orthodox church actually got its information from the "apostles", all you have is hearsay. Pretty sad how you cant let go of this esotericism and exclusivism which will end up having you condemned to hell most likely.
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>>19471981
We can absolutely know what the first generations of Christians from the apostles thought. Ignatius of Antioch (died early 2nd century) refers to all four orders of the church in his epistle to the Philadelphians. People such as Irenaeus (130 - 202) are strong defenders of Orthodoxy from purveyors of heresy, and Irenaeus was of course a student of Polycarp, and a student of John the Apostle himself. This is just two examples off the top of my head, and they are completely in line with the teachings of the Church today. To deny this you risk claiming that the Church established by Jesus Christ on Pentecost was a failure, and that it did not even last a century after the resurrection, which is tantamount to blasphemy
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>>19467291
>Palamas was saved through invincible ignorance
This is such disingenuous garbage. First papal councils anathematize people like St. Photios the Great and St. Mark of Ephesus, who argued with RC talking points, (calling them explicitly demonic) and so could not have been ignorant of them, and then proclaim them as saints who were saved due to the invented notion of invincible ignorance.
Also St. Gregory was aware of arguments for filioquism and has a whole treatise debunking it. Which argument exactly do you need to hear to make you not invincibly ignorant anymore? Is there a list of them? Since you think he hasn't heard them, surely you must know which ones they are? Seems like just a system to retcon anyone into salvation and make sainthood essentially meaningless. It's a complete denial of history and ultimately refutes the ideology of papism itself.
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>>19472027
Nothing but hearsay. I have a bridge to sell you, btw.
>To deny this you risk claiming that the Church established by Jesus Christ on Pentecost was a failure
You do not understand what he was establishing.
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>>19471981
The Holy Spirit still works in the same Church which keeps the teaching of the great holy father's and ascetics. It's demonstrable in its fruits of producing true saints and martyrs. Our spirituality is the same as it was for At. Anthony and the other early saints. There is no stigmata or protestant mega church charismatic stuff. You can verify this just by reading early works of saints who trace back to the apostles themselves as the other anon pointed out.
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>>19472069
Not surprising that a Protestant is condescending and arrogant and explains nothing.
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>>19472079
I did. I said it was hearsay, and you know that's the truth. The principles of Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church themselves go directly against the Gospel of Christ, which alone shows it isn't established on what was taught by him.
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>>19472098
The Gospels were written by the founders of the Church and the Church established the canon. You would no Bible if it was not for the Church.
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>>19472105
>You would no Bible if it was not for the Church.
These types of arguments just show how feeble minded you are and how pharisaical Christian thought has become. It's like a Jew saying "You would have no Torah if it was not for us." Unbelievable.
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>>19471951
That's what all heresy does, it destroys the mind through pride. He literally thinks he can judge theologians of ecumenical councils and accept anti-arianism on the basis of the same St. Gregory the Theologian who refutes apollinarianism. It's basically modern philosophy, where you pick and choose whatever you want to believe.
It's also always a system of connected thought, there isn't a single universalist for example who also isn't a Christological heretic, they all tend to think Christ could sin. So all talks of good protestants is meaningless, the truly God-fearing ones become Orthodox eventually as seen in many great converts from protestantism who even became saints.
I'd just pray for him if he helped you, he still very much can be saved.

>>19472098
>go directly against the Gospel of Christ
The Orthodox Church is the Church who the Holy Scripture is written for and compiled by. It is not an invisible body of believers the apostle Paul addresses in his epistles. Christ promises the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. This promise is a lie if immediately in the first-second century the Church became largely apostate. If your Bible is compiled by a group of apostates I have very bad news for you, you can't be sure you can trust it.
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>>19472122
That is true, there would be no Torah if not for the preservation of it by true followers of Moses who God protected. It's both a work of God and of faithful prophets and priests preserving the tradition.
The Church is just the New Israel. It's still a visible group as God's chosen people, except now it includes all nations.
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>>19472122
You’re offering no rebuttals here. Yeah, the Torah was preserved as well. Without the Church you have no way of knowing what is Scripture and what isn’t. In fact Prots can’t even respect the canon, they have to throw out books and claim that the Church was somehow in error for over a millennia, and still claim that Scripture alone is enough, when Scripture doesn’t even support Scripture alone or say what the contents of Scripture even are. Protestantism is built on a foundation of sand
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>>19472135
Again, it is very telling how rabbinical your definition of the Church is. I never said the disciples apostated, I am saying that what you commonly call the "Church" was in reality not established by them, but by men who claimed they were their students. We can demonstrate this very easily by comparing the principles of Roman Catholicism/Orthodox and the direct words of Christ. You don't understand Matthew 16:17, and I doubt you ever will.
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>>19472158
The point is the Torah being preserved by a body of people does not denote that we follow that body into hell.
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>>19472161
Matthew 16:18*
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>>19472171
They were evidently trustworthy enough so that Jesus said to do what they say but not to do what they did. They were legalistic, proud and hypocritical, but they carried on a living tradition effectively. I

Matthew 23:2-3
>“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
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>>19472171
It's the same body that accepted Christ, the New Testament Church is a continuation of the Old Testament, with the eternal priesthood intact.
>>
Between KJV, ESV, RSV which English Bible should I refer to? It seems like many English Orthodox actually prefer the KJV to more modern translations even if it lacks the Apocrypha, but I'd like to have more detail.
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>>19472197
Your understanding of this verse contradicts much of what Jesus said about the Pharisees. They told people to divorce their wives with a certificate, just as their forefathers who were hard of heart were told to do by Moses, but this was adultery and was sinful. The living tradition was corrupted by the sins of their fathers.
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>>19472222
Yeah, I’m not telling you to follow the Law of Moses, anon, I’m saying that they successfully carried on the tradition, and were thus able to preserve the scriptures to the time of the Church today. Without them there’d be no way to know what was from Moses and the prophets, and what wasn’t. Same with everything in the New Testament.
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>>19472217
It seems like you'd need multiple translations either way.
Check this article out if you haven't already - http://www.saintjonah.org/articles/translations.htm
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>>19472325
I've seen that one. I've also managed to grab a Russian Synodal translation but it's lacking the Apocrypha (no Judith, etc.) I don't know if this was done because it's a portable version or because it's a Protestant Bible (Russians all use the same translation apparently).
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>>19472477
>Russian Synodal translation but it's lacking the Apocrypha
Sounds weird. I'm Russian and this is the first time I've even heard of such a thing. There are multiple translations into Russian but that's mostly the New Testament, liturgically we use Church Slavonic which is almost a word for word copy of the Received Text in the Byzantine tradition, while the Synodal translation is based on the Masoretic text.
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>>19472716
That's doubly weird since while looking in the Eurozone this wasn't the only Bible witout Apocrypha. I wanted a smaller one, so I went with this. FWIW the publisher is the Russian Bible Society.
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>>19460369
Happy Christmas fasting everyone I wish you luck
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>>19472850
Merry Christmas, anon, and same to you! I’m excited to see what Christmas is like around the church
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>>19467283
Orthodoxy considers that only God knows all the saints.
>>
I always struggle with cold-feet before I show up on Sundays but the priest said he wants to set up a meeting with me in the coming week so maybe I’m just doubting too much
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>>19473572
Just go, anon. You'll be glad you did.
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>>19473717
That’s what seems to happen. It always turns out much better than I thought.
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>>19473572
This will be my second Sunday. Never been happier to wake up at 5AM to travel in the rain.grypg
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>>19473802
Are you the guy who took the train for a long trip to the liturgy last week?
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>>19473937
Yeah that's me
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>>19473946
Cool, good luck, I hope you are able to find a priest who is willing to talk with you!
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>>19473994
Thanks anon.
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>>19472217
Get EOB New Testament and the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint is the patrician choice. ESV is good for quick reference.
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>>19472217
I'm very slowly assembling a (possibly?) usable Bible for the English community by using a Byzantine revision of the ASV as my base for the NT--this revision was completed earlier this year and posted online for open-source use, alongside a similar revision of Brenton's LXX. It's coming along slowly, as I'm still trying to figure out the layout (section headers or no, quotation marks or no, whether to stick with this paragraph format or go back to verse-by-verse how I had it initially, etc.) I'm using the EOB as a crutch for a lot of aesthetic changes to the ASV, but thus far it's been nothing major yet; the biggest change I did so far was auto-replace every use of "elder" with "presbyter" in Matthew. I'm also using the Tyndale House Greek New Testament for paragraph breaks, which produces some different results than I see in, say, the RSV. I'm thinking of doing all this initial typesetting and then, perhaps, opening it up to /oclg/ and possibly the broader Church community for comments/suggestions on edits. Dunno, as I'm largely doing this for typesetting practice. I'm open to thoughts.
>>
New Testament criticism doesn't affect my faith at all, especially since now it is usually accepted that the early Church did preserve Christianity as it was developed (even if these scholars would deny that it is the real faith and teachings of Christ). No, where I falter is the apparent historical origins and development of monotheism and Old Testament criticism. I have thought of some solutions to these quandaries, but they are problematic and, as far as I have read, un-Orthodox.

It bothers me very deeply, but then when I read the words of Christ, or the lives of St. Herman of Alaska or St. Mary Skobtsova, my fears are assuaged, and it all makes sense, if even for just a fraction of a second. It is a beautiful feeling and I want to feel it all the time.

Of course the temptation to simply say that the scholars are completely mistaken or even that their evidence is a Satanic counterfeit to challenge our faith is very enticing, but for me that is a coward's way out. For me to say that would actually be a lack of faith on my part, because I am scared all the time I will read something that will shake my faith irreparably. I have too little faith to withstand such a challenge.

Nevertheless, not my will but His be done. Please pray for me, and sorry for my rant.
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>>19473572
I'm feeling this myself, currently going to two different churches one sat (Serbian) and one sun (OCA)

The OCA church is bowing hard to the covid stuff and makes me want to leave for the Serbian but the Serbian one is fairly small and sat worship feels weird to me. It's stressing me out more than I thought as I want to be baptized in the new year and I'm struggling on knowing where to stay.
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>>19474723
All the arguments of so-called scholars boil down to starting from the false premise that Christ is not God. Literally every single one of them uses this presupposition in the reasoning, and we know that a false premise can prove anything.
Fr. Daniel Sysoev deals well with popular atheistic argumentation you still see to this day on 4chan threads. (>>19463141)

Also check out this video about monotheism being a supposed later invention.
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>>19474774
I got to an OCA church and they follow the city mask-mandate during the liturgy, but it’s funny because as soon as the liturgy ends and people go upstairs literally no-one wears their mask and they just chat and drink coffee. I can’t figure out what their position is.
>>19474723
>where I falter is the apparent historical origins and development of monotheism
I highly recommend you watch these. They are long, but well worth the time. Trust me:
https://youtu.be/za260DIsgzQ
https://youtu.be/b-bMgXQV7no
They are both very highly sourced
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>>19474830
Sadly my church has ended all after church gathering so it leaves me feeling a bit disheartened when everyone just kind of goes home now after liturgy where before we would go some where after or stay at church. I know the main point is the liturgy but I'm missing that brotherhood. Troubling times.
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>>19474830
>I got to an OCA church and they follow the city mask-mandate during the liturgy, but it’s funny because as soon as the liturgy ends and people go upstairs literally no-one wears their mask and they just chat and drink coffee. I can’t figure out what their position is.
All that means is it's just for public appearances. Since the after-liturgy stuff is seen as separate, being upstairs and out of view, things loosen up.
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>>19474844
That was my guess as well, in case some city government goon walks in or something of a similar nature.
>>19474842
Oh wow, that would be tough. Of course though the Liturgy is the centerpiece, you’re right that fellowship is also vital.
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>>19474795
Forgot link.
https://youtu.be/kx_C6oKNOWA
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>>19474830
>I got to an OCA church and they follow the city mask-mandate during the liturgy, but it’s funny because as soon as the liturgy ends and people go upstairs literally no-one wears their mask and they just chat and drink coffee. I can’t figure out what their position is.
Most people at my church either didn't care what you did or were anti-mask. My priest is pretty anti-mask but ultimately he decided to wear one out of obedience, although ironically within weeks of making that decision our state's mask mandates became more lax.
>>19474795
>>19474830
>>19474894
I appreciate it, brothers. I have been baptized for less than two months, and so far I am deaf and blind to the grace of the God (though I know He really is there, even if I feel nothing), and since I can't feel it in my heart and am just going off assumptions and deductions it is easy for my faith to waver. Though he's not Orthodox by any stretch of the mind, it really struck me while reading Henry Corbin when he mentioned that the result of a failed initiation was inevitably agnosticism, which I often feel like I'm hurtling uncontrollably towards. As faithless as I am, I pray that God saves me.
>>
so is that Genesis, Creation, and Early Man reprint actually happening?
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>>19474994
I hope so, the pdf starts to become difficult ro read like 100 pages in with all the errors and spelling mistakes.
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>>19474937
When I’m having trouble I’m always left to think about Mark 9:24, “I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!” Such a simple verse but one that is easy to relate to in many ways. I will keep you in my prayers, anon.
>>19474994
Is this just a rumor or has there been any real word? I sure hope it’s true, because I really would enjoy getting a copy. I do not see it even listed on the website for St. Herman Press
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>>19463722
the guy who wrote this book is incredibly based btw
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>>19474994
I should email the publisher
>>
>Newrome Press announces "Illuminated Septuagint" with a revised and improved Lexham LXX in September 2020
>replies to a comment saying they hope to release it in late 2021/early 2022
>still no word
It hurts.
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>>19475979
Sad to see this happen so often. I think the EOB had plans for a Septuagint translation too but it never was completed
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>>19475990
Yes, the EOB was basically a crowdsourced project that had plans for a full Bible, finished the NT in 2011 after about 4 years, and then just died presumably because nobody had the energy to keep going after the high of finishing the NT. At some point, they gave Newrome and Legacy Icons the rights to use the translation for their own releases; Legacy Icons then made their own partial translation of the OT for their liturgical books. I'm wondering if I should shoot Newrome an email to see if the Illuminated Septuagint is still in progress?
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>>19467517
>“By far the best and most in-depth book that has ever been written on the Catholic Church’s infallible teaching on the necessity of the Catholic Faith and the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.” (From many who have read it)
>(From many who have read it)
So what they all just decided to give that exact same spiel or something LOL
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>>19474937
There is no failure in baptism, because it is God's direct miraculous working. It changes you once and for all, you may not see at first but it really is the case. Seems like this is a temptation allowed to test how you rely on Him.
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>>19476044
I just emailed them. I'll post the reply here or in a future thread if I get it.
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>>19467499
>It is, in fact, the Eastern Orthodox who claim that everybody outside of their church is damned
This is extreme projection and stupidity. A strict Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus was Catholic dogma in the 1600s on and repealed in the 1992 catechism. The Orthodox Church has never made such absolutist claims.
>>
Due to weather and other problems I decided against going and I'm feeling pretty downcast about it. Have a good Sunday everyone.

Since literature is the topic, yesterday I received the little prayer book I mentioned in the other thread. It's a very nice no-nonsense breviary in English.
I'll check out for the rest of the day.
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>>19476436
God is trying to stop you from worshiping Mary.
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Orthodoooooox
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>>19476903
I like it how you can just see the seethe pouring out of the author of this image
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>>19476862
The only churches within 200km are Catholic and I can ask the Virgin Mary to intercede for me just fine from home, so that would be a very weird way to go about it. Anon don't you think it is a bit arrogant to think that you know what God wants of total strangers?
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>>19477122
The further you explore Orthodoxy the more some Prots will act like this in my experience, especially online.
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>>19476903
I've known a guy exactly like that. Ran through the entire repertoire of internet identities before they became cool. Over the course of the past 5 years I've known him, he's been a libertarian, a socialist, a Q-anon believer, a Trump-fan, a Trump-hater, a fedora-tipping atheist, a catholic, an orthodox and last I spoke with him, he had become a woke acolyte who had poured through all of Toni Morrison's novels because he desperately wanted to fuck a really disagreeable and completely, bona fide 75-IQ retarded (but thicc, fair's fair) Somali woman who was studying literature.

The only constant identity of these people is that they are actors in the most profound sense.
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>>19477142
>these people
Americans?
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>>19460738
>latest
you're like four years late bro
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>>19474723
Jesus saying that it was Moses who wrote about Him in the Torah, and Moses appearing on Mt. Tabor is all a Christian really needs to believe.
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>>19477122
Apparently no one within 200 km of (You) actually reads the Bible then.
>don't you think it is a bit arrogant to think that you know what God wants of total strangers
I just assume that the Bible applies to everyone, including those whom I do not personally know.
>>
I went to Divine Liturgy for the first time today. It clearly wasn't for me. How is a Westerner in the only church in the country supposed to fit in to a tradition that is so culturally different, we well as the fact it was 90% in Greek and 10% in English, with me being the only native there?
It sucks, theologically I agree with the Orthodox on most things (more than Protestant and far more than Catholic). I would feel like a LARPer if I tried any more, as I could just not 'feel' the liturgy. It felt completely alien.
I imagine it feels more 'natural' in America as you have American priests and laity with generations of immigration, so everyone is at least American despite their ancestry.
>>19473802
Also this, I had to get up at the same time
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>>19478723
>I agree with the Orthodox on most things (more than Protestant and far more than Catholic)
Utterly retarded. As a Protestant you can take only the parts you agree with and reject anything else.
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>>19478723
This is why they always just redirect you to the local Catholic Church. Not because they want you to become Catholic instead, but because they know you're larping.
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>>19467517
Holy shit. What kind of blurb is that?
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>>19478827
Literally
>Source: Believe me.
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>>19477993
Please just open a Protestant literature general to talk about how awful everyone else is, at least you can talk about everything but books in your own environment. That is if you are actually driven by some kind of crusading spirit, which I doubt because going out of your way to annoy others just because you can do it freely is a core trait of nihlists.
>>19472716
I confirm that it's pretty difficult to find a Bible in Russian that has the Apocrypha in the EU. The only ones I can find with the Apocrypha are either from the USA or from Russia.
If you're still here can you at least tell me if "Synodal" always refers to the same translation?
>>
Strange request but any orthodoxfriends have recommendations for youtube channels summarizing theological and christological disputes? I used to have a few and lost them.

Really interested in the debate between Barlaam and Palamas but I also want to have some visually ordered summaries of the various councils and controversies since I've gotten so rusty I am practically starting from scratch.
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>>19478806
But I wasn't LARPing. I was quite serious about it after all of the reading I've done. And the priest never said such thing to me. He was happy I came, and asked that I come next weekend.
But I understand your point, the cultural difference is too great I think.
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>>19478723
Not all Orthodox Churches are like this. Mine is all in English. Look into different churches
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>>19478862
>if "Synodal" always refers to the same translation?
Yeah Synodal is the standard Russian translation approved by the Russian Patriarchate. All Orthodox use it as pretty much the default for reading at home, the other translations are either sectarians like JW or more academic translations.
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>>19478862
>talk about everything but books
>post quoted mentions the Bible twice
>>>/int/
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>>19478983
Welp, for the time being I'll get this one. As long as the translation is not changed arbitrarily to fit Protestant views and the NT is the same it will have to do.
On a side note it's impressive how inaccessible everything becomes once you steer just a little bit outside of what is available through the usual channels. Many of these Russian Bibles don't even have an ISBN to refer to.
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>>19460758
Wake me up when Novus Ordo has been eradicated, and when Rome recants the Filioque clause, and apologizes for Mexicans.
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>>19460369
My Catholic church will be hosting a queer service. I struggle with my own faith but this cannot be the will of God, can it? Please recommend me something to read that helps me deal with this soul-crushing nihilism.
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>>19479058
>My Catholic church will be hosting a queer service. I struggle with my own faith but this cannot be the will of God, can it
This is unironically demonic and an abomination to God. Wew
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>>19478880
>youtube channels summarizing theological and christological disputes
I like these two. It's not so much about debates either, mostly talking about Orthodoxy. The first one touches on some pretty deep topics, the only channel on youtube I've seen covering some things. I recommend the video about Christ's human nature since basically all of the West has this notion very confused.
https://youtu.be/uHp6ItDQ6hU
https://www.youtube.com/c/therealMedWhite/featured

>Really interested in the debate between Barlaam and Palamas
Beware of Western scholars trying to mix everything to make it seem like it's really the same thing with only language differences, or trying to say "Palamism" is some special school of thought and not just the teachings already found in St. Paul's epistles and the Old Testament.
I suggest just reading the Triads themselves, it's not heavy Platonist philosophy or anything, if you know the NT and basic terminology like ousia, hypostasis, etc it's fine.

>According to the Fathers, deification is an essential energy of God; but any essence of which the essential energies are created must itself necessarily be created!478... Barlaam indeed does not blush to claim that all the powers and natural energies of God are created, even though our faith teaches us that every saint is a temple of God by reason of the grace that indwells him. How could the dwelling place of a creature be a temple of God? How could every saint become uncreated by grace, if this grace is created?
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Grigorij_Palama/the-triads/#0_14
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>>19479067
There is a gay banner hanging outside the church right now. The Catholic youth association put it up.
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>>19479026
>On a side note it's impressive how inaccessible everything becomes once you steer just a little bit outside of what is available through the usual channels.
This. Even in Russia it's hard to get a good full Bible in Church Slavonic. There's like two variants of them available for sale.
I'm also looking into getting a full Septuagint but this seems very hard as well. There are some sites selling Gospels from Mt. Athos but that's about it. I'm tempted to just print out some books like Genesis and hand-bind them myself.
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>>19479115
Just become Protestant, we have Bibles.
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>>19479058
>helps me deal with this soul-crushing nihilism
Pic related. What you experienced is a systematic attack by the spirits of evil in heavenly places St. Paul talks about. Also his book Nihilism and the one in the OP.
>For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Ephesians 6:12)
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>>19479169
>become Protestant
Why would I bow down to Satan? We have Bibles too, without gutted canons, the real thing. I just want to learn another language and have a good hard copy.
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>>19479169
No you don’t. You have texts translated from Masoretic manuscripts and have cut out multiple books of the Bible while simultaneously claiming ‘muh scripture alone’. Protestantism is built on a foundation of sand. Come to the true Church of the Apostles
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>>19479104
>a queer service
>There is a gay banner hanging outside the church right now.
That's basically no different from an idol hanging outside the church.
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>>19479169
>become Protestant
This really is a meaningless call. What am I supposed to do? Protest against the Roman Church? There is no one coherent theology in "protestantism".
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>>19479115
Assuming you have a grasp rather than a mastery of Russian, enough to understand the Synodal vesion; is the Slavonic so different than the Synodal version that it is impossible to follow? I have compared the two versions on Bible Study App (https://andbible.github.io/) and they look fairly similar in most places.
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>>19479255
>there's no coherent theology in the Bible
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>>19479255
Just ignore him, he's probably not even a Christian but just someone who wants to be disruptive.
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>>19479241
The gay flag is not an idol. Next you will say a church cannot fly the flag of their nation.
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>>19479291
LGBTQ is a demonic ideology in rebellion to God. Why should a church dedicated to the worship of the Lord fly flags dedicated to anal sex and unnatural pairings?
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>>19479257
Slavonic is very close to the Greek even in word order, so it's different and not immediately clear to most Russians but foreigners might have an advantage. I wouldn't say it's much harder, it's just different and has more grammar which doesn't exist in Russian, like dual numbers. It's somewhat comparable to KJV vs modern English.

But knowing just the basic forms of the words in the Synodal you could understand quite a lot. There's also a lot more repetition/redundancy like in Greek or Hebrew (he said, he said, etc), so it makes it easier for liturgical reading and memorization. The Synodal version changes the text quite a bit. People who know both Greek and Slavonic say that verses from one immediately trigger in their memory verses from the other, it's very a close translation.

I would say the Gospels are the easiest part in Slavonic, especially John is very good to learn from.
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>>19479291
>gay flag is not an idol
It's like flying a flag of Canaan and Amalek-pride outside the Holy Temple in Jerusalem. Would you think that would be more permissible than directly placing a Canaanite idol there?
>>
What can I expect from the Church around Christmas time?
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Hypothetically, if I was dating a cute vampire girl, would that be considered a sin?
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>>19479726
Vampires are people imbued with demonic activities.
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It feels as if I appreciate the Liturgy more with every subsequent visit. It really needs multiple visits to grasp and imbibe.
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>>19479726
Anon you shouldn't entertain this kind of lascivious thought to begin with.
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>>19460369
Highly recommended

https://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/reading/

Also check this:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=gdHSWmfkdgg
https://youtube.com/watch?v=-UQaOwsPrJw
>>
Is Russia in general, and Russian Orthodoxy specifically, one of those impenetrable cultures where you will never be remotely accepted, and will be at best be treated with mild condescension no matter how hard you try? What are the things you should avoid when you approach Russian Orthodoxy?
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6AlOJ4MvbtQ
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>>19480847
Based priest. Notice how much healthier he looks than his counterparts too.
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Anons, I highly recommend reading St. John Chrysostom's homilies on Matthew. I'm consistently amazed both at the depth of even simple parts of the Gospel and at Chrysostom's eloquence.
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>>19480966
Any particularly version you’d recommend? Matthew is my favorite gospel, so my interest is piqued
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>>19479439
Frankincense and myrrh.
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>>19480974
I'm reading the collected works e-book off Amazon, the translation is decent for what it is. I'm sure someone mpre familiar with the intimacies of translating the Fathers can weigh in with more detail, though.
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>>19481004
Thanks, anon, I will look into that. It will work for my purposes. Appreciate it
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>>19460369
>What Orthodox literature have you been reading lately?
None
>Planning on attending Divine Liturgy on Sunday?
No
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The Jews fear the golden-mouthed man
https://www.tertullian.org/fathers/index.htm#Chrysostom_Against_the_Jews
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(((Roman))) 'Catholics' legit think Barlaam made sense.

Guess what, God is personal and you can know him.
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Am I in error if I understand the Trinity as something like this?
>The Father as God in transcendence
>The Spirit as God in immanence
>The Son as God in unity of immanence and transcendence
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>>19479115
in the age of Lulu, a slavonic bible should be easy to acquire for anyone who has a slavonic bible pdf
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can one be a misanthrope and a christian? can I hate people, live as a hermit as much as possible, and still get salvation? if I have to do something I'd rather donate a lot to charity than ever help a person in real life
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>>19481424
If you say there is an abstract impersonal God who manifests transcendence as the Father, then yes, it is pure modalism heresy. The Father is the Father, He is not understood by any other concept, but by being unbegotten and cause of all. All three persons share the three properties you listed.
And saying
>unity of immanence and transcendence
sounds like splitting the Holy Spirit into two pieces. The Spirit is not a subordinated entity to the diad of "Father and Son". That is the filioque heresy.

>So then this one and only God is not Wordless. And possessing the Word, He will have it not as without a subsistence, nor as having had a beginning, nor as destined to cease to be. For there never was a time when God was not Word: but He ever possesses His own Word, begotten of Himself, not, as our word is, without a subsistence and dissolving into air, but having a subsistence in Him and life and perfection, not proceeding out of Himself but ever existing within Himself.
>Moreover the Word must also possess Spirit. For in fact even our word is not destitute of spirit; but in our case the spirit is something different from our essence. For there is an attraction and movement of the air which is drawn in and poured forth that the body may be sustained. And it is this which in the moment of utterance becomes the articulate word, revealing in itself the force of the word. But in the case of the divine nature, which is simple and uncompound, we must confess in all piety that there exists a Spirit of God, for the Word is not more imperfect than our own word.
>All then that the Son and the Spirit have is from the Father, even their very being: and unless the Father is, neither the Son nor the Spirit is. And unless the Father possesses a certain attribute, neither the Son nor the Spirit possesses it: and through the Father, that is, because of the Father""s existence, the Son and the Spirit exist, and through the Father, that is, because of the Father having the qualities, the Son and the Spirit have all their qualities, those of being unbegotten, and of birth and of procession being excepted. For in these hypostatic or personal properties alone do the three holy subsistences differ from each other, being indivisibly divided not by essence but by the distinguishing mark of their proper and peculiar subsistence.
- St. John of Damascus, https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/Ioann_Damaskin/an-exact-exposition-of-the-orthodox-faith/#0_7

Sometimes it is said that the Son is the hypostatized wisdom of the Father, it is meant that the Son manifests the Father's uncreated wisdom in the Sonly way. The Spirit would do this in His way too. Every action of the Holy Trinity involves all three persons, and this is for example why the Father cannot incarnate, since only the Son is begotten. The Father sent the Son to be incarnate in the Holy Spirit. This video kind of touches on it https://youtu.be/lWIlqYmwYZg
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>>19482122
>can one be a misanthrope and a christian?
No. That's insane, Christ is also human so you would have to hate Christ as well. And other humans are made in His image. Hating humans is a demonic activity, since they are creations of Christ which will never cease to exist in a body due to their goodness of nature and Christ saving us from death. You aren't supposed to become a hermit to escape the material world like the 'gnostics' teach.
> I'd rather donate a lot to charity than ever help a person in real life
That's what the Pharisees did, donate money to the temple instead of helping their family and thinking that removes from them Christ's commandment of honoring your parents, which He Himself obeyed. It is the same with loving your neighbor as yourself, it's the main commandment shown by example to us in Christ.
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>>19480847
>Jesus has a fallen human nature
>human nature in Christ can act independently from the one person of the Logos
I cringe every time I hear this. It might the one most common heresy of our time since it includes all the evil teachings from arianism to gnosticism.

>The wicked one, then, made his assault from without, not by thoughts prompted inwardly, just as it was with Adam. For it was not by inward thoughts, but by the serpent that Adam was assailed. But the Lord repulsed the assault and dispelled it like vapour, in order that the passions which assailed him and were overcome might be easily subdued by us, and that the new Adam should save the old.
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>>19480543
As far as I know, Russian Orthodoxy in the US is the more "accepting" one.
You just have to find the correct parish for you, there are churches under Russian jurisdiction which serve in English for example.
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>>19481085
It's also very interesting that the enlightenment and humanism is extremely tied to this debate, with magicians and pagan revivalists like Pletho and later Giordano Bruno all being connected to Barlaam.
Also ecumenism and false unity based on neoplatonism has origin in this time in the Ferraro-Florentine council, where humanist supporters of Barlaam signed the union in spite of direct orders by their patriarchs to not accept anything if the West would push its filioque error.
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>>19482336
There is also a Protestant line of humanism.
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>>19482351
Protestants just inherited many of the falsehoods of Roman Catholicism in their schism. The filioque for example is just an assumption they take for granted.
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>>19482122
>if I have to do something I'd rather donate a lot to charity than ever help a person in real life
The Catholic church is so rich because it favors this mindset.
>can one be a misanthrope and a christian? can I hate people, live as a hermit as much as possible, and still get salvation?
No, you can't. The good news is that if you take Christianity seriously your misanthrophy will be healed.
You probably think it's stupid to give up misanthropy, and that renouncing it opens you up for defeat. Yes, people are wicked and the world is a terrible place, full of deceit, and those who are meek and charitable are constantly used, mocked and thrown to the wayside. It's understandable that you can only think this way, but first of all, this is not universally true.
There is like a veil in front of your eyes that needs to be lifted. You're seeing everyone as wicked because it's convenient to live in fear than to venture out to find the good, and as long as you will be blinded by this sentiment you will never find any good anywhere. You have been defeated already.
The truth is that there are indeed people who want to do good, all of them struggling against sin, and those people are exceedingly rare. Jesus himself didn't preach in a saccharine land of niceties, He had to navigate a world full of hostility, and he was mocked, assaulted and eventually killed by a mass of wicked people. There is nothing new to the foundations of misanthropy, it's nothing "modern", this is reality now, as it was and as it will ever be.
And now about yourself, you are wicked too. If you are so dominated by absolute hatred for people that you are sheltering it against your faith, how can you expect God to lead you on a good path? You seek salvation, yet how can you condemn others if you cannot give up the same pride and hatred you condemn in others? If it is hatred and evil that you want to indulge in, it is not God who will lead you but Satan.
Everything changes when you answer to God for your actions, words, and thoughts.
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>>19482131
The filioque is utterly patristic.

Thus, St. John of Damascus:
>Think of the Father as a spring of life begetting the Son like a river and the Holy Ghost like a sea, for the spring and the river and sea are all one nature.

>Think of the Father as a root, and of the Son as a branch, and the Spirit as a fruit, for the substance in these three is one.
Source: https://orthochristian.com/43553.html

This captures, by image or analogy, the Roman position respecting the role of the Son as understood according to the filioque.

Root-branch-fruit. The idea of the Son as "branch" is a perfect metaphor for the Roman position respecting the filioque. And yes, he is indeed speaking of hypostatic origin here, with the Father as sole cause (which is what Rome teaches).
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>>19482976
Filioque is somewhat of a meme. It is an unnecessary and unilateral addition to the creed and it risks being misunderstood if not properly explained, in that the wording could lead to an undermining of the role of the Father as the fountainhead and monarchy of the Trinity. I see why it is objected too, but it’s not the root of all evil. Many patristic authors, iirc, used better wording, saying that the Holy Spirit goes *through* the Son, which doesn’t make the Son seem like He has the *exact* same role as the Father.
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>>19482976
>St. John of Damascus:
He literally destroys any possibility for filioque in the very post you're replying to. It seems Romans can't even grasp their own doctrine of filioque.

>>For in these hypostatic or personal properties alone do the three holy subsistences differ from each other
Causing divine persons is the hypostatic property of the Father. The Father and Son cannot share this without the Holy Spirit also sharing it. So either the Father and Son are identical, or the Holy Spirit causes a fourth divine person.
You have created a new shared property of Father and Son the Spirit is excluded from. This is not the Holy Trinity but a dualistic abomination. It doesn't matter how may specifications of "as from a single principle" you insert. There is still a diad of Father and Son possessing something the Spirit is not participating in.

This patristic teaching of St. John of Damascus is consistently the argument against filioque by the Eastern fathers like St. Gregory Palamas.

>So how are the different beginnings one? After all, the great Dionysius says in the second chapter the words about divine names: "what belongs to the Father and the Son, the same is applied to the God-giving Spirit as a common property and equally"; and the great Basil in his chapters refuting the Eunomians: “everything common to the Father and the Son is common to the Spirit” . If the spiration is common to the Father and the Son, then it is common to the Spirit, and the Trinity will be fourfold, and the Spirit will bring forth another spirit.

>After all, we say that the existence of the Son is from the Father, as born from the divine essence, that is, according to the paternal hypostasis. For one is the essence of the Three; so that the [property] to give birth is attached to the paternal hypostasis, and it is impossible for the Son to be from the Spirit. Since the Holy Spirit is also from the Father, then He is also emanating from the divine essence according to the paternal hypostasis, for the essence of the Three is always and in everything one. Therefore, the [property] to spirate is applied to the paternal hypostasis, and it is impossible for the Spirit to be from the Son, since it is impossible for the Son to possess the hypostasis of the Father. For according to the most sacred Damascene, “we recognize the difference between divine hypostases in only three features: the causeless and the paternal, the conditioned cause and filial, and the conditioned cause and spirated” . Do you see how the hypostasis of the Son is not [together] the cause, but only is a conditioned cause? For only one thing - he says - this [the hypostasis of the Son] has as a peculiarity, as well as the [hypostasis] of the Spirit. Do you see at the same time that the paternal [hypostasis], as a paternal characteristic, encompasses both birth and spiration? So, if the Holy Spirit is from the Son, then the Son will also be the Cause and will also be the Father as the Cause.
>>
Post some of your favorite quotes, orthobros.
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>>19482122
>can one be a misanthrope and a christian?
No, love is a main part of Christianity. God is love, and we are told to love another as God has loved us, and to love our neighbor as ourselves. If we think of the persons of the Trinity as abiding in mutual, eternal and uncreated love, we can understand to an extent what it is God is calling us to in our own lives. This is why Christian fellowship is extremely important. And don’t get me wrong, this is an extremely difficult teaching even though it seems so basic. The current state of the world makes it easy to be misanthropic, but there are many more good people on this planet than you’d think.
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>>19483107
>saying that the Holy Spirit goes *through* the Son,
St. Gregory Palamas calls this blasphemy too if you want to say the Spirit receives _origin_ through the Son in a mediated way. Only the uncreated energies are manifested eternally through the Son, from the Father and in the Spirit. So the Father loves the Son in the Spirit, the Son reciprocates the Fatherly love back in the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit loves the Father through the Son in eternity. But only creatures receive existence through the Son (John 1:3).

>However, for this reason, we will not consider that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, for we would rather dishonor Him than glorify Him, reckoning Him among those [creatures] who received being through the Son. Therefore, we consider Him in a special way and eternally emanating from the Father alone, just as the Son is born [in a special way and eternally]. And believing in this way, we will glorify Him and worship [Him] with the Father and the Son.

>but it’s not the root of all evil
It's called explicitly satanic many times by Orthodox saints. St. Palamas says that even a slight error in God leads to great errors in everything else, which is a plainly demonstrable truth.
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>>19483130
>The sorrow which takes hold of the heart that has sinned against love is more piercing than any other pain. It is no right to say that sinners in hell are deprived of the love of God. . . . But love acts in a double way, as suffering in the reproved, and as joy in the blessed.
t. St. Isaac the Syrian

His quote on hell is what really made me start digging deeper into Orthodoxy. I don’t believe in his other views on hell though
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>>19483184
>his other views on hell though
The texts which speak about apokatastasis were written by a Nestorian, not St. Isaac, if that's what you're referring to. We even have St. Paisios confirming this.

One day, sitting at the bench outside of Stavronikita, the Elder was visiting with pilgrims, among whom was a high school teacher of theology. The theology teacher, repeating a popular Western error, claimed that Abba Isaac the Syrian was a Nestorian. Father Paisios tried to persuade him that Abba Isaac was not only Orthodox but also a saint, and that his Ascetical Homilies possess great grace and strength. But the Elder’s words were in vain: the theology teacher stubbornly insisted on his views. The Elder left for his hermitage, praying and so sad that he was in tears.

When he had come to a spot on the path near a large plane tree, something happened to him. These words, “something happened”, were the only description he gave us of the incident, not wanting to reveal the exact details. According to one testimony, he saw in a vision the choir of the holy fathers passing before him, and one of them, stopping, said to him, “I am Isaac the Syrian. I am completely Orthodox. The Nestorian heresy was indeed present in my region, but I fought against it.” We are not in a position to endorse or to reject the reliability of this witness. We know for certain only that the Elder experienced a supranatural occurence that confirmed with perfect clarity the holiness and total Orthodoxy of Abba Isaac.
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>>19483130
A proud monk has no need for a demon; he himself became a demon and an adversary to himself.
St. John of the Ladder.
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>>19483184
>>19483193
>>19483208
Swag, thanks for posting. I want to read more about orthodoxy. I have a sneaking suspicion it has some interesting theory.
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>>19483231
You may enjoy this book. It gives a good look into the spiritual life of Orthodoxy. It is very accessible while still being a stimulating read. Each chapter is ended by many quotes from famous saints and Orthodox writers that are quite nice.
>>
>If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”
how true is this? would you only jerk off and eat pizza if christianity was proven wrong tomorrow?
ancient greece and rome managed to have impressive civilizations without promise of a reward in the afterlife
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>>19483270
NTA, but here's a follow-up question: Is it reasonable to take from this that man inevitably develops a pagan ethic if he's not in Christ?
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>>19483270
Yeah, since that's exactly what I did before I knew Christ.
There really is no value in life if you do not live forever in a transfigured body.
> impressive civilizations
They were basically masturbating and eating pizza and making sacrifice to demons, with some good parts eventually arising/being preserved from ancient tradition, since man is naturally good by nature. All materialism/paganism devolves into meaningless fornication eventually. Just look at the uncontrollable lust these civilizations had.
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>>19483270
>would you only jerk off and eat pizza if christianity was proven wrong tomorrow?
Hopefully not, but I probably would. If Christianity was somehow proven false I wouldn’t turn into an atheist though. I believed in God before becoming Christian but I was never able to overcome many of my problems in life before becoming Christian.
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>>19483305
Yes, all pagans essentially believe the world was formless chaos and has evil at the beginning. I've heard the view that the fallen angels who were there at Genesis 1:1 remember this and transmitted this knowledge in a corrupted way to basically all cultures who fell into idolatry. This is why perennialism is so appealing to many people, it's just a corrupted form of the original perennial teaching of Christ.
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>>19483362
Oh yeah, how does eastern orthodoxy deal with the problem of evil post-fall? How did demons come into being?
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>>19483270
>without promise of a reward in the afterlife
I don't know how this was injected into ancient Rome or Greece, probably by Americans, but there was no such thing as the complete and utter nihilism of modernity in those civilizations. There was no such thing as "Oh yeah when we die we're just food for worms, there is no truth" in ancient Rome or Greece or what have you. This is a purely post-industrial concept.
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>>19483473
>How did demons come into being?
They’re fallen angels.

>There was no such thing as "Oh yeah when we die we're just food for worms, there is no truth" in ancient Rome or Greece or what have you.
One can find aspects of it in the thought of Greek sophists, whose ideas have basically become mainstream today in many senses with their atheism, relativism, ‘man as the measure of all things’-sort of thinking. It has reached its most destructive forms only in the last few centuries though when it has become widespread and made the foundation of Western societies. Modern science with its godless reductionistic and materialistic way of viewing the world is the main cause, but a lot of this stuff, strictly speaking, isn’t new.
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>>19483613
Second half meant for: >>19483477
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>>19483613
Yeah but largely speaking, no culture in the past embraced the kind of worldview we have today, so I think the idea that the Romans or Greeks managed to create create and lasting cultures while having the same materialistic mindset as today is erroneous.
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>>19483682
I definitely agree. I think the modern world draws off of pagan sources and a sort of distortion of Christian views. It is unique.
>>
Who to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Meyendorff
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Lossky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Schmemann
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Florovsky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_of_Sourozh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaroslav_Pelikan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_E._Gillquist
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christos_Yannaras
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sophrony_(Sakharov)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumitru_St%C4%83niloae
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Popovi%C4%87
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kallistos_Ware
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McGuckin
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Swinburne
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>>19483980
ask your priest
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>>19483983
This is a _recommendation_. These authors are published by Orthodox publishing houses in Russia and around the world.
>>
One of the most interesting people in the 20th century

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pio_Filippani_Ronconi
>>
>>19484006
Then you should've added a colon after "Who to read", silly.
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>>19483983
>having priests
Get with New Testament times alte kaker.
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>>19484021
If I wanted to ask, I would put a question mark, dear anon
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>>19484024
Stop reading Prot translations that obscure the fact that elders, overseers and servants were appointed wherever the apostles went, i.e. priests, bishops and deacons
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>>19483980
Just read the saints first, then you will not be fooled by any modern heretical outlooks. From this list Fr. Staniloae is the most traditional I think and St. Justin Popovich of course, but one man from your list literally prayed in a "Hindu ashram".
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>>19484024
>noo laying on of hands to pass authority is just a metaphor!
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>>19484059
But the EOB uses presbyters, overseers, and deacons.
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>>19484077
>but one man from your list literally prayed in a "Hindu ashram
Why does this keep happening? I’m starting to think that Hindu ideas are actually one of the most dangerous spiritual forces out there today. It happened under our nose, but these ideas have been permeating the Western consciousness for a while now. Ideas like ‘karma’, ‘yoga’ and even reincarnation are increasingly mainstream and everyday English words. Most of the New Age scene is founded on ideas straight from Advaita Vedanta and other Vedic and Pagan ideas. ISKCON’s influence should not be overlooked either. No matter how much these people profess to worship one God in Krishna, or Rama, or whatever avatara they want to point to, they are pagans whose religion is founded on idol worship and polytheism.
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>>19484108
>Why does this keep happening?
My guess would be that people don't adopt the traditional mindset of the saints but try to create their own religion with Orthodox aesthetics. There's no way someone who has the same faith and mindset as the holy fathers of the ecumenical councils would think this is acceptable action for a Christian, much less a bishop who is a symbol of Christ Himself.

It's for sure a demonic system way beyond the normal person's understanding or grasp. This is why we have to rely on saints to not get confused.
>>
Redpill me on why I should go Eastern Orthodox rather than Eastern Catholic; the latter would have both Western saints as an option I could venerate (St. Joan of Arc, for example) and I would have more options of churches I could commune at if I ever needed to move for work
Literally the only other option would be to become Eastern Orthodox, and if I move for work I don't go to church and don't receive the Eucharist for who knows how long, unless I take the Roman Catholic Eucharist (which they offer to EO) and get excommunicated by the EO for it
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>>19484108
>Ideas like ‘karma’, ‘yoga’ and even reincarnation are increasingly mainstream and everyday English words. Most of the New Age scene is founded on ideas straight from Advaita Vedanta and other Vedic and Pagan ideas.
Meh. I think Westerners are largely uninterested in these concepts. Say, something like "Yoga" pretty much translates to soft gymnastics, of the likes of Tai Chi. If you ask a Westerner what "Karma" is, he'll most likely answer something like "you reap what you sow", and very rarely "if something bad happens to you, it's because you did something bad in a past life" but this is very rare. Either way it's a reductive view of Karma as understood by Buddhism. I'm very firm on the idea that none of these things matter at all on their own, what matters is separating people from their culture and legacy. Buddhism's only asset from this point of view is being a very remote religion that is difficult to put into practice, difficult to understand, difficult to practice in a Western context, so by the time it gets into the West it's completely stripped out and reshaped into some sort of inoffensive spiritual padding for people who feel lost. Hence when they tell depressed people to "try mindful meditation".
The real objective is pulling people away from Christian roots. Lately I've been observing things a bit and whereas I thought in the past that the Zeitgeist was veering sharply toward irreligion, through some kind of all-encompassing cynicism toward all spirituality, this isn't true. So much of what is being done is specifically anti-Christian. Then other "spiritualities" are offered, but it doesn't matter which. It doesn't matter if they offer you Paganism or Buddhism, both of which are DOA in the West, as long as it's DOA they're happy, and because they can scratch the itch without committing to anything, people will be happy too until a new spiritual fad comes up.
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>>19484248
(I talk about Buddhism because AFAIK no Westerners adopt concepts like Karma from Hinduism; it's always from Buddhism)
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>>19484237
Because it's the truth and being in heresy or schism is a mortal sin. Roman Catholicism is an incoherent system, Eastern Catholicism just highlights this by having saints which were previously condemned as heretics by popes. Eastern Catholicism is just a perennialistic ploy to try and embed Orthodoxy into Roman Catholicism while not really solving the theological issues. It's a purely political unity, not the unity you see Christ praying for, not the unity of St. Paul who tells us to be one in the faith we received, not the unity of the church fathers where St. Maximus the Confessor was willing to die over not communing with monothelites, or even just not calling them heretics.
Modern Roman Catholicism does not care about truth or theology, you just construct it as you go along. Latin nestorianized heart worship, literal Nestorius veneration in the Syriac and Indian churches, and veneration of St. Gregory Palamas and St. Photios the Great somehow exists in the same church for them and they consider this fine.

If there was no Orthodox church in my entire country I would still never become Eastern Catholic because I would lose salvation. Having true and correct faith is most important because without this we cannot truly commune with Christ.
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>>19484108
Hindus and Buddhists also try to lure Christians into practicing aspects of their religion through using Jesus as bait. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen them take Jesus and claim he was akshually a bodhisattva or a guru. Of course their idea of Jesus is not the Christian view of Jesus. Muslims do the same thing. Everyone wants Jesus and wants to reshape Him in their image. David Bentley Hart constantly shills for this sort of nonsense in his books
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>>19484379
This. It's fascinating that even most demonic systems cannot really deny Jesus, they just try to co-opt Him into their framework.
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>>19484427
Yeah, it really is. Everyone is of course aware of leftists who try to use Jesus as some sort of stick to beat Evangelicals with as well—“He was a socialist!”, etc. Everyone is forced to reckon with Him in one way or another. I cannot think of anyone comparable. For example who wants to co-opt Muhammad?
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>>19484077
>but one man from your list literally prayed in a "Hindu ashram"
Who's that?
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>>19484427
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
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>>19483130
Not a quote, but a passage about the OT by St. Maximus the Confessor.

>What is the meaning of the brazen serpent that Moses hung on a high [banner] in the desert?

Anciently, having deceived man, the mental serpent through disobedience mixed into our flesh the law of sin, like a serpent crawling into us through pleasure, therefore, if one who walks through virtue that does not have passions, turns to Egypt, that is, into the darkness of sin, then thought-snakes will sting him. But if he looks at the crucified Lord, whose flesh, suspended on a high [cross], has killed and made the law of sin, which is in our flesh from the serpent, inactive, then he will be saved. The copper serpent, since neither destruction nor rust touches the nature of copper, just as the Lord was not touched by the rust of sin and His flesh did not see corruption (Acts 2:31).

Gregory the Theologian mentions this in the following words: The brazen serpent is suspended against the stinging serpents, but not as an image of the One who suffered for us, but as the image of the opposite. And again: the Believer subjugates the forces subordinated to him [that is, the devil] .This also needs to be clarified. The one who has cleansed the eyes of the soul with virtue and knowledge clearly realizes that evil is not [any] existence, that it does not exist in anything from existence, except in actions.

So, since the serpent, the originator of evil, mixed the curvature of sin to man through disobedience, Moses ordered to hang the brazen serpent, showing [at the same time] what was to be done with the Lord in the future; After all, he alone, through the passions, nailed sin to the cross and showed [it] to to be inactive and dead.

The one who looks at Him and believes that the enemy has died and has become inactive, that also mortifies the forces subordinated to him, for [the enemy] can no longer harm him through feelings or the sensory - [through all that] over which he has power. That is why the [holy] father says: not as an image, but as an image of the opposite, pointing to the mortification of the devil.
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Are we going to use /oclg/ as a subject from now on?
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>>19484890
Given that the Christian threads haven't gotten nuked or moved to /his/ since this and the Catholic thread have added it to the subject form, yes.
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>>19484890
Yeah like the other anon said, it seems to have preserved the thread. I barely changed anything in the OP too so I guess the key is to designate it as literature
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/oclg/
/clg/
/aclg/
and now
/pclg/
>>19483891

Stahp
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>>19484953
It's really silly that it all hangs on such trivialities, but I'm not complaining.
Either way even if I was mostly talking about translations I'll try to keep my posts more literature-based. I'd hate to see this general disappear since it's now the only thread I visit on /lit/.
Speaking of which has anyone read A Pilgrim's Tale? It's not a theological text, just a novel.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Way_of_a_Pilgrim
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>>19483130
>Isaiah 59:14-19
Justice is turned back, and righteousness stands afar off; for truth has fallen in the public squares, and uprightness cannot enter. Truth is lacking, and he who departs from evil makes himself a prey. The Lord saw it, and it displeased him that there was no justice. He saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no one to intervene; then his own arm brought him victory, and his righteousness upheld him. He put on righteousness as a breastplate, and a helmet of salvation upon his head; he put on garments of vengeance for clothing, and wrapped himself in fury as a mantle. According to their deeds, so will he repay, wrath to his adversaries, requital to his enemies; to the coastlands he will render requital. So they shall fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come like a rushing stream, which the wind of the Lord drives.
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>>19484978
obviously someone's trying to get the whole shebang banned.
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>>19484978
In theory I don’t mind this, but like the other anon said, I hope it won’t get the threads banned, because I find this general to be pretty comfy. Jannies here can be awful. They’ll delete dozens of literature-related threads but will keep up for days coomer-bait, /pol/ posts and off-topic “Write What’s On Your Mind” garbage.
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>>19483130
The hand of the Lord came upon me and brought me out in the Spirit of the Lord, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Then He caused me to pass by them all around, and behold, there were very many in the open valley; and indeed they were very dry. And He said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” So I answered, “O Lord God, You know.”
Again He said to me, “Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.”
So I prophesied as I was commanded; and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and suddenly a rattling; and the bones came together, bone to bone. Indeed, as I looked, the sinews and the flesh came upon them, and the skin covered them over; but there was no breath in them.
Also He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and breath came into them, and they lived, and stood upon their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Ezekiel 37:1-10.
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>>19484978
>Catholics and Orthodox start a thing
>Protestants fuck it up
Many such cases.
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Until Seraphim Rose’s books on Eden are reprinted, what is the best work on Biblical creation and the nature of Adam and Eve in Paradise?
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>>19485366
The Holy Bible, before, until, and after anyone's crappy book.
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>>19483123
>He literally destroys any possibility for filioque in the very post you're replying to.
No, he does not.

When he writes:
>All then that the Son and the Spirit have is from the Father, even their very being
(i) Those words establish the Father as sole cause, but as I noted, that is what Rome teaches.

And (ii) Nothing St. John of Damascus wrote in the passage you quoted (>>19482131) is inconsistent with his remarks respecting that hypostatic origin of the Spirit which I quoted above (>>19482976), to wit:
>Think of the Father as a spring of life begetting the Son like a river and the Holy Ghost like a sea, for the spring and the river and sea are all one nature.

>Think of the Father as a root, and of the Son as a branch, and the Spirit as a fruit, for the substance in these three is one.
Source: https://orthochristian.com/43553.html

>Causing divine persons is the hypostatic property of the Father. The Father and Son cannot share this without the Holy Spirit also sharing it.

But the Son does not share in the sense of in any way usurping the Father's role as sole cause.

And again, St. John of Damascus writes:
> But the Holy Spirit is not the Son of the Father but the Spirit of the Father as proceeding from the Father. For there is no impulse without Spirit. And we speak also of the Spirit of the Son, not as through proceeding from Him, but as proceeding through Him from the Father. For the Father alone is cause.
Source: http://www.orthodox.net/fathers/exacti.html#BOOK_I_CHAPTER_I (Chapter XII)

That last word "cause" establishes that John is speaking of hypostatic origin when he speaks of the Spirit "proceeding through Him [the Son] from the Father." This in short is what the Roman Church means in its filioque -- the same as what St. John says above.

>>19483107
>I see why it is objected too, but it’s not the root of all evil.
I agree with both these points.
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>>19483980
Recommending Ware, McGuckin and Swinburne is near enough a sin that you should confess it to your priest.
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>>19485366
Nature of Adam is tied intimately to Christology and the human nature of Christ. St. John of Damascus has very detailed explanations in his Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. It also has chapters on creation and paradise.
For creation see St. Ephrem the Syrian on Genesis and St. Basil the Great's Hexaemeron.

https://sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home/genesis/st-ephrem-the-syrian-on-creation
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>>19485441
>Noooo you can’t read exegesis and discussion of Genesis 1-3 based on Scripture!
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>>19460369
>The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware
Ware literally posits a Nestorian Jesus in this book. Stop recommending it you fucking retard.
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>>19485620
Ware isn’t great but he doesn’t do what you’re saying he did. I just read that book recently
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>>19485633
I've read it twice and I know for a fact that he did. A ROCOR bishop even officially denounced the book for Ware's statement. You're probably just not discerning enough to have picked up on it.
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>>19485366
Along with what the other anon said, look into parts of The Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching by Irenaeus. He touches on Paradise
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>>19485662
I don’t think you’ve read it bro
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>>19485662
>A ROCOR bishop
So?
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>>19485602
You're confusing eternal manifestation and hypostatic origin. Any passage using "through" language is about eternal manifestation exclusively. Read St. Gregory of Palamas' apodictic treatise on the Holy Spirit if you really want to understand.

If there is a real property X of God, it is either unique to one person or is shared by all three. According to St. John and all the saints. If the Son is in any sense involved in causing the Spirit, be it as single principle, or co-cause, this breaks the above doctrine of uniqueness of hypostatic properties. Since the property X of "involved in causation of divine person" now is neither unique to one hypostasis, nor shared by all. It is not hard to grasp.
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>>19485683
>who cares what bishops say? x)
Yeah ok retard
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>>19485675
Nestorius could agree with the three points above though. It's his idea of union that is heretical since it is based on the divine will and not the hypostais of the Word.
You can easily be Nestorian and use Orthodox language. Not saying the book does it, I havent read it. For example suggesting that Christ could sin in His humanity would bring you into Nestorianism even without affirming explicitly any Nestorian position.
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>>19485685
>You're confusing eternal manifestation and hypostatic origin

Nope. You're ignoring the plain language of St. John of Damascus, writing in An Exact Exposition of the Divine Faith:

> But the Holy Spirit is not the Son of the Father but the Spirit of the Father as proceeding from the Father. For there is no impulse without Spirit. And we speak also of the Spirit of the Son, not as through proceeding from Him, but as proceeding through Him from the Father. For the Father alone is cause.

That last phrase, "For the Father alone is cause," establishes that John is speaking of hypostatic origin when he speaks, in the immediately preceding sentence, of the Spirit "proceeding through Him [the Son] from the Father."

Again, what St. John of Damascus says here is exactly what the Roman Church means in its filioque.
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>>19485697
>who cares what schismatic bishops say
Yes.
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>>19485713
He mentions in the book that He had no sin as well, so I have no clue what the other guy is talking about.
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>>19484592
bump
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>>19485720
I'm becoming convinced RC do not actually read the fathers but just quote-mine.

>Further, it should be understood that we do not speak of the Father as derived from any one, but we speak of Him as the Father of the Son. And we do not speak of the Son as Cause or Father, but we speak of Him both as from the Father, and as the Son of the Father. And we speak likewise of the Holy Spirit as from the Father, and call Him the Spirit of the Father. *And we do not speak of the Spirit as from the Son: but yet we call Him the Spirit of the Son*. For if any one hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His, saith the divine apostle. And we confess that He is manifested and imparted to us through the Son. For He breathed upon His Disciples, says he, and said, Receive ye the Holy Spirit. It is just the same as in the case of the sun from which come both the ray and the radiance (for the sun itself is the source of both the ray and the radiance), and it is through the ray that the radiance is imparted to us, and it is the radiance itself by which we are lightened and in which we participate. Further we do not speak of the Son of the Spirit, or of the Son as derived from the Spirit.

Here in the same sentence he uses the two senses to show the distinction and literally explains how the Spirit is the Spirit of the Son, by the manner of His works. It is an analogy similar to the root analogy, which shows energy (both eternal and temporal), not origin.

>And the Holy Spirit is the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of His Divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son in a manner known to Himself, but different from that of generation. [...]
>The Father is the source and cause of the Son and the Holy Spirit: Father of the Son alone and producer of the Holy Spirit. The Son is Son, Word, Wisdom, Power, Image, Effulgence, Impress of the Father and derived from the Father. But the Holy Spirit is not the Son of the Father but the Spirit of the Father as proceeding from the Father. For there is no impulse without Spirit. And we speak also of the Spirit of the Son, not as through proceeding from Him, but as proceeding through Him from the Father. For the Father alone is cause.

In the last sentence he literally makes a distinction between cause, i.e. origin and the sense in which the Spirit is of the Son in a different, non-causal sense. Only time "through" or "Spirit of Son" is used is either explicitly energetic, or to contrast it with the hypostatic origin in the exact same sentence. Just open the book and ctrl-f "through the".

>proceeding from the Father and communicated through the Son
>And we confess that He is manifested and imparted to us through the Son.
>begetter of the Word, and through the Word the Producer of the revealing Spirit
>the power of the Father revealing the hidden mysteries of His Divinity, proceeding from the Father through the Son
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>>19485977
Thanks for your thoughtful response. I'm going to review the points you raise, and will respond on next /oclg/ if needs be.
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Read it
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If we are not justified by works, but by faith alone, then what should I be doing? Am I being called, surely not to let myself give in to sin, but to throw my sin to Christ and pray for the ability to resist temptation? Then am I not praying for the ability to perform works? By praying for release from the things I am weakest to, aren't I implicitly attempting to live by the Law? This hasn't been a problem for me before, but after it came in to my mind earlier today, I haven't been able to stop thinking about it.
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>>19487256
Remember that we are called to grow in virture and to partake in the divine nature, i.e. growing into the likeness of God and becoming by grace what He is by nature. Faith without works is dead. And the entirety of the Law is fulfilled from loving your neighbor as yourself and loving the Lord your God your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind (Romans 13:8-10, Matthew 22:37-40)
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>>19487456
Thank you, anon.
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>>19487524
Glad to have helped. God bless
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to all the catholics in the thread needlessly bickering and kvetching, fuck you
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>>19487655
Not them, but I'm just sticking around because I want to hear from the anon who emailed Newrome Press about the Illuminated Septuagint so I can buy it too.
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Based thread.



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