Unless someone has a great interest in the history of late antiquity, I don’t think one can even comprehend just how misleading this book is. Its distortion of history is simply breathtaking. I’m completely in awe. Where does one even begin?
I’ll start with the book cover > Out of the tens of thousands of Greek and Roman statues found not even seventy have a cross carved. Also according to the majority of the scholars who have dealt with this issue the carving of the crosses in those few statues whas a way of preserving the statues and not of destroying them.> Helen Saradi, “The Use of Ancient Spolia in Byzantine Monuments: The Archaeological and Literary Evidence,” International Journal of the Classical Tradition 3 (1997): 403–404, suggests that “another means of incorporating the pagan past into the Christian world was to carve the sign of the cross on the forehead of statues, in particular those of Roman emperors. It has been shown that the cross on the forehead stood for the sphragis, directly related to the baptism. Thus these statues were Christianized and the represented persons were included among the Christians. This use of the cross was positive and it was not meant to indicate that the statues were ‘neutralized.’ The fact that it was mostly statues of members of the Julio-Claudian dynasty received the cross on the forehead takes on a special significance. It probably indicates that they had been chosen by God to become part of his divine plan, since Christ came to earth during that dynastic rule.”’
>>19225179> Nixey says remains of Great Library of Alexandria at Serapeum destroyed by Christians (xxvii, 90+): There are five contemporary or near-contemporary accounts of the destruction of the Serapeum, none mentions books or a library. There's no clear reference to a library there for well over a century before. So literally no proof any existence of a library in the Serapeum by any primary source or even the destruction of it by Christians. Completely made up by Nixey’s imagination.
>>19225197> Talks about how Serapeum was destroyed by Christians > Of course conveniently omits to mention that the Serapeum was housing a pagan gang that was rounding up, murdering and torturing Christians > Serapeum was not destroyed by a Christian mob but Roman soldiers. Christians later joined in out of anger after the pagan murderers were allowed to safely go freeFull story which the author omits since it goes against her narrative about pagan always been innocent and good> Pagans in Alexandria became outraged after Christians found a bunch of sacred pagan items in an abandoned temple’s basement and had them mockingly paraded around for everyone to see. The pagans then got together a gang based in the Serapeum complex and ventured out into the streets at night to kidnap prominent Christians, drag them back to the temple and torture and kill them. Their victims were crucified, had their legs broken and were then thrown down a well. The prefect of the city had the Serapeum surrounded by troops and there was a stand off for many weeks, during which time both factions petitioned the emperor Theodosius in Constantinople. To restore peace, Theodosius ruled that the pagan terrorists could leave the temple unmolested and ordered that they were not to be killed, but also ordered the temple to be demolished so it could no longer be a focus of violent pagan resistence.This was carried out by Roman troops, but the large Christian crowd, outraged that the pagan killers had escaped alive, joined in.
>>19225229Makes it seem as if there was some kind of empire wide orgy and policy of destruction. Archeological evidence has already proven this to be far from the truth. Of course she leaves this evidence out. Goes against her narrative.> Drawing on surveys of the evidence by Penelope J. Goodman, Richard Bayliss and several others shows that the tales of widespread, systematic destruction and desacralisation are artefacts of rhetoric and not reflected in the hard archaeological evidence. He notes that “only 2.4% of all known temples in Gaul have evidence of being destroyed by violence” (p. xxv). The picture is the same elsewhere: only a few examples are to be found in Africa, all in the city of Cyrene, only one example in the whole of Asia Minor and just one in Greece (and that is the temple destroyed by the Visigoths). And so it goes on: just one example in Italy, three in Britain and just seven in Egypt – including the Serapeum. The exception to this rule seems to have been the provinces of the Levant, which “seems to have been a hot spot of temple destruction: 21 of 43 cases of temple destruction/desecration cited by Bayliss come from this zone” (Lavan, p. xxxviii).
>>19225241Hypatia’s death is made out to be religious instead of political. Once more a lie. The city of Alexandria was well-known throughout its history for its contentious and bloody street politics, which Hypatia involved herself in. Quick video debunking Hyptia myth:https://youtu.be/TR8YJcL_5jUWe know what we do about Hypatia because Christian writers praised her and condemned her murder. The Christian writers like Socrates Scholasticus spoke highly of Hyptia and condemned her murder and the mob who killed her as being ‘unchristian,’ writing ”surly nothing can be farther from the spirit of Christianity than the allowance of massacres, fight and transactions of the sort.”So makes an isolated incident that was confined to the bloody street politics of Alexandria and even condemned by many Christians at the time as a representation of what late antiquity was like.
Jeez, Christcucks are so impotent they never own up what they did or do.
>>19225272>the pagans were good guys dey dindu nuffin it was raycismshut up nigger
>>19225272So are you saying all historians of late antiquity who condemned this book as a travesty are ‘Christcucks’? Why should one take a journalist like Nixey (not even a historian) seriously anyway?Are you saying atheists like Tim O’Neill are chrstcucks? Why do they have to gain anyway?https://historyforatheists.com/2017/11/review-catherine-nixey-the-darkening-age/I’m not a Christian, but as a lover of late antiquity, I absolutely despise this book because it distorts history.
>>19225272oh yes pagans would never burn books or destroy stuff or anything like -> James Partington’s 1957 book entitled, A Short History of Chemistry. In this book, Partington explains that little is known today about ancient chemistry because much of what was written down did not survive antiquity. He says that the word “Chemistry” first appeared in a Roman edict by Diocletian in which all books of the Egyptians in Alexandria on the topic of chemeia are ordered to be burnt.> “Diocletian sought out and burned books about this. [It is said] that due to the Egyptians' revolting behavior Diocletian treated them harshly and murderously. After seeking out the books written by the ancient [Egyptians] concerning the alchemy of gold and silver, he burned them so that the Egyptians would no longer have wealth from such a technique, nor would their surfeit of money in the future embolden them against the Romans.”
>>19225229If you're going to complain about omissions, you might mention that the Christians "found" those artifacts in a temple which was "abandoned" because the practice of pagan rites had been forcibly forbidden.
>>19225293>>19225297>>19225307Sophistry notwithstanding, i admire muslims who are openly proud of their acts. Christians are literally SJWs who want to be the goodest boys and yet are full of hatred towards other non-xtian people. Jeez, sort yourselves.
>>19225179>>19225197>>19225229>>19225241>>19225264not an argument
>>19225318Alexandria was one of the most Christian cities in the Roman Empire so yeah it was definitely an abandoned temple. Emperor Julian even wrote a sad letter to the population of Alexandria in 362 asking why the majority of them had become Christian > ... But the blessings that are vouchsafed by the visible gods to all in common, every day, not merely to a few persons or a single race, or to one city, but to the whole world at the same time, how can you fail to know what they are? Are you alone insensible to the beams that descend from Helios? Are you alone ignorant that summer and winter are from him? Or that all kinds of animal and plant life proceed from him? And do you not perceive what great blessings the city derives from her who is generated from and by him, even Selene who is the creator of the whole universe? Yet you have the audacity not to adore any one of these gods; and you think that one whom neither you nor your fathers have ever seen, even Jesus, ought to rank as God the Word. But the god whom from time immemorial the whole race of mankind has beheld and looked up to and worshipped, and from that worship prospered, I mean mighty Helios..
>>19225323I honestly can’t think of anything more SJW than journalists like Nixey distorting history and crying about how Christians killed and persecuted grillons of pagans 1600 years ago.
>>19225337Literally debunked all her main misleading claims and exaggerations. But of course anti-Christians naturally only have the backing of a raving female journalist (still angry that over her monk father and nun mother for being strict parents) instead of an actual historian.
>>19225389So pointing out that she’s a journalist with no credentials in the history of late antiquity (or any history for that matter) is ad-hom now?
Imagine being Nixey and going to the greatest university in the world, which was founded by Christians in Medieval England (or the ‘dark ages’ as she calls it in her book) as one of the centres for Christian and ancient learning.Imagine then picking a degree in classical literature because you’re unfortunately a woman and humanities is the only option for the great majority of females. Imagine then tirelessly having to read all that classics literature preserved by Christian monks for centuries (which Christians actually all destroyed but has miraculously survived). Imagine then after finishing your humanities degree realising that you can’t do shit with it in the modern day and literally having to ask yourself what’s the point of a classics degree: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/higher/catherine-nixey-what-s-the-point-of-a-classics-degree-564000.htmlImagine then being forced to make money by writing about how Christians destroyed all ancient literature and learning you got taught in a Christian created institution to gullible, low-IQ neopagans.Yes, it would be shameful but you picked a degree in humanities and have lost all dignity and need to make money and survive, so what else can you do? Poor Nixey. Don’t pick humanities, guys.
>>19225307What's the problem? You're of the opinion that alchemists and magic users should be murdered and their works destroyed. It's why you support all of the campaigns to destroy pagan literature, by men like Cyril and Justinian. It's why you cheer on the part in the New Testament where the Greeks destroy all of the books in Athens.
>>19225423Isn't surprising as Christians too once sat with pagan centres of learning to study Greek philosophy and then closed them down.
>>19225307>egyptian alchemists should have been allowed to engage in counterfeiting>but galileo should have been shot for daring to suggest that rabbis in 600BC didn't have physical cosmology figured outYou know that this position just defends Progressivism, right? You're just admitting that Christianity is intellectually backwards and that you're a mindless drone, you just are upset that you're on the receiving end of it now.
Pagans should read more. Read about how your religion is intimately tied with its national State for political reasons. The political and the religious are one and the same for this is the most rigorous way to ascertain political dominance on a people. The laws and institutions must be sacralized in order to be respected. It is not by chance that as the political regime begins to decline, its local religion likewise degenerates, vide pagan roman temples being abandoned and or used as prostitution house by the 2nd/3rd century AD.
>>19225453You do realise centres of learning continued in the eastern Roman Empire? Another thing debunked by Tim O’Neill > In fact, despite the eighteenth century thunderings of Nixey’s favourite authority, Gibbon, it was actually nothing like this. To begin with the Academy that was closed down in Athens as a consequence of this law could not trace its “history back in an unbroken line …. to Plato himself, almost a thousand years before” (p. xxvii) – it actually only dated back to the late fourth century AD, when it had been established by the neo-Platonist scholar Plutarch. The original Academy of Plato had ceased to exist centuries before. More importantly, the law that brought about the end of this new Academy was not aimed at shutting it or any other school down, just at removing the dwindling number of pagan teachers from the public purse – a key element that Nixey dismisses as “a finicky detail or two about pay”. As the always sensible Edward J. Watts details comprehensively in his article on the subject (“Justinian, Malalas and the End of Athenian Philosophical Teaching in A.D. 529”, The Journal of Roman Studies, 94, 2004, pp. 168-182) the more general imperial decree was used by local Christian authorities to cripple the Academy led by the overtly anti-Christian and Iamblichan Platonist teacher Damascius. But this was not some great Empire-wide crackdown on “philosophy” generally – just a local affair that affected an anti-Christian school.> Of course, Nixey dresses the incident up with typically ponderous drama, detailing how Damascius and his followers decided to abandon the Roman Empire and seek out sunnier philosophical climes in Persia, at the court of the new King Khosrow I. I suppose that would have made a suitable ending for her book, with the descent of “a Dark Age” and the poor philosophers riding off into the sunrise, seeking sanctuary from Christian oppression in the wisdom and tolerance of the east. Except even Nixey could not distort things that badly, so she has to relate the sequel – the Persian king turned out to be an idiot and the philosophers pleaded to be allowed to return home. Then the supposedly terrible Christian emperor accepted them back and they were allowed to continue to teach privately, just not on the public purse.
>>19225488I don't see what the Ottoman Empire has to do with this.
>>19225297>It's the historyforatheists spammerplease die
>>19225444A myth once more. Christians did not destroy valuable pagan writings like Homer or Plato. They specifically targeted three things.> anti-Christian polemics like those written by Celsus> Magical and divination texts (which many have still survived and you can search up, but no one reads cause they’re they’re truly shit with no value)> heretical Christian texts like gospel of Thomas or those written by AriansIf Christian destroyed valuable pagan writings then why did Emperor Julian ask Christians why the enjoy learning and teaching classical texts so much?> “If the reading of your own scriptures is sufficient for you, why do you nibble at the learning of the Hellenes? And yet it were better to keep men away from that learning than from the eating of sacrificial meat. For by that, as even Paul says, he who eats thereof is not harmed, but the conscience of the brother who sees him might be offended according to you, O most wise and arrogant men!”I know my late antiquity very well. You don’t besides what you’ve gathered from pop history written by journalists like Nixey.
>>19225493Can you read? Literally says nothing about the Ottoman Empire. It’s talking about the eastern Roman Empire in the 6th century.
>>19225488>To begin with the Academy that was closed down in AthensNice. Regardless, i guess it's nice they were made Christian. It's still wisdom, huh.
>>19225504>>19225456> Historians work from sources. Axe-grinders like Nixey pick, choose, and fabricate whatever “facts” suit their ‘a priori’ agenda. Devotees of the long discredited and quaintly 19th century ‘conflict thesis’ between religion and science desperately need mobs of Christians burning books of Pagan wisdom—never mind that we have no sources for that book burning; never mind that the only reason we have any of these works at all is because Christians and Muslims preserved, copied, translated, and commented on them. (I’m aware that we do have sources about Christians burning the books of heretical Christian sects. They did burn books, but not the books of Pagan science, math, and philosophy which the axe-grinders so desperately need them to have burned.)> Since the Enlightenment—falsely so-called–the axe-grinders would routinely claim that Christians burned the Library of Alexandria, insisting that historians who maintained otherwise were covering up Christian crimes against knowledge—we’d have colonized Mars centuries ago if those pesky Christians hadn’t burned all the science and math books, fer cryin’ out loud–until even they had to finally concede that all available evidence argues that the great library’s collection burned when Caesar was laying siege to Alexandria, decades before Christ was born.> “But Christians must have burned books of Pagan wisdom!” the poor dears cried out in anguish. So vested were they in this myth of book burning that they went looking for other libraries in Alexandria the loss of which they could blame on Christian mobs and latched onto the Serapeum. “See!” they shout triumphantly. “Christians DID burn the Library of Alexandria, just not THAT Library of Alexandria! Huzzah! Excelsior!”> The big problem with this narrative is that it isn’t supported by the historical record. We have multiple primary sources about the events in question, none of which contain an account of any such book burning. Furthermore, we do have a primary source written a few decades by Ammianus Marcellinus before the Serapeum was razed which indicates that the books were already long gone.
>>19225519You really think a neo-platonic academy that believed in mysticism was full of wisdom and scientific thought? And they were allowed to continue teaching their mystical nonsense. They were just no longer supported by the public purse.Why don’t you properly read?
>>19225456Who shot anyone for Heliocentrism, fool? I know pagans have done worse for merely suggesting that the sun wasn’t a God.> Anaxagoras (5th century BCE), claimed that the Sun was "a fiery mass, larger than the Peloponnese"; a charge of impiety was brought against him, and he was forced to flee Athens.You do realise that cosmology was more than anything based on Aristotle? Geocentric model was his thing. Since ancient pagan times Aristotle’s cosmology was seen as the correct one. Once more proving your natural ignorance about history.
>>19225575You don't believe in it doesn't mean it is by default a falsehood. Creationism is accepted by millions too, a completely bullshit religious nonsense is yet taught sincerely around the world.
>>19225609And creationism is bullshit too and so is the mysticism taught by neo-Platonics. Nothing of value lost.
>christians didn't really destroy paganism they just completely replaced itDunno... seems like the Alexandria gang was on to something about fighting back.
>>19225716Yes. Just as atheism didn’t destroy Christianity. It replaced it. Street fighting between pagans and Christians was limited to Egypt and the Levent. Nothing like that happened in Greece, Gaul or Rome. I guess the latter didn’t care enough to fight for their pagan religion.In fact, check up all the fanatical pagans and they all come from the Eastern empire (such as Syria, Anatolia and Egypt for some reason). They were a minority in the east, but an extremely loud one. On the other hand, the fanatical Christians like Theodosius, Gratian and Rufinus came from the western Roman Empire.
>>19225162>CatherineDude the leading female neurscience researcher says emotions are just us feeling concepts we've assigned and have no deep biological basis. Look up how Emotions Are Made.Do not, ever, read any nonfiction by women.
>>19225746The eastern pagans understood what they were up against. Canaries in the coal mine, the first enemies of the mosaic distinction. The Romans were careless god adopters
>>19225551There's a problem with just working from sources. Sometimes we know sources exist because they are referenced in other works. For example, we know of pagan works that existed but did not survive simply because they were referred to by Christian apologists. Interesting that none of them survived. To think that Christians did not actively suppress pagan texts is extremely naive.Simply looking at the historical record is not sufficient to make an assesment of what happened in the past. Should we be forced to believe that the Bering Land Bridge is the only way people crossed into the Americas? Or should we consider the assumption that there were vast water routes of which all evidence is under the ocean?
>>19225179Hmmm I’m not sure if I buy this argument
>>19225493Where are you seeing any mention of the Ottoman Empire anywhere in this post, you absolute autist?
Paganbros...I thought only Christians did stuff like this...>The Platonic Academy was destroyed by the Roman dictator Sulla in 86 BC.>In 86 BC, Lucius Cornelius Sulla laid siege to Athens and conquered the city, causing much destruction. It was during the siege that he laid waste to the Academy, as Plutarch relates: "He laid hands upon the sacred groves and ravaged the Academy, which was the most wooded of the city's suburbs, as well as the Lyceum.">The destruction of the Academy seems to have been so severe as to make the reconstruction and re-opening of the Academy impossible.---->the fire started by Caesar destroyed 40,000 scrolls from the Library of Alexandria.---->In 322 BC, Demophilus and Eurymedon the Hierophant reportedly denounced Aristotle for impiety, prompting him to flee to his mother's family estate in Chalcis, on Euboea, at which occasion he was said to have stated: "I will not allow the Athenians to sin twice against philosophy" – a reference to Athens's trial and execution of Socrates.>In 399 BC, Socrates went on trial and was subsequently found guilty of both corrupting the minds of the youth of Athens and of impiety (asebeia, "not believing in the gods of the state"), and as a punishment sentenced to death, caused by the drinking of a mixture containing poison hemlock.
Good posts ITT. I've been reading City of God and realized how unsustainable paganism was. It's rituals were state-funded debaucheries that celebrated all-too-human, flawed Gods, whose worship was claimed to have material benefits but brought none. And each god was given only a sliver of domain, meaning that you would have to worship a million different deities to reach every aspect of life. Not to mention how the upper classes thought the rituals were goofy poetic myths, and themselves truly believed in mystery religions and philosophy, but were happy to deceive the public at large with their ostentatious displays.If the enlightenment and atheism almost killed Christianity, imagine what it would have done to (Greco-Roman) Paganism, which already had such a flimsy basis that Augustine was able to blow it to pieces in the 400s. If Julian actually managed to revive Paganism in any meaningful way, it would've had to been along the Hindu lines of making all the deities out to be avatars (is that the right word?) or aspects of Jupiter, and mingling it the already-burgeoning monotheistic philosophies. Otherwise I'm certain there would have been an outright abandonment of religion altogether by the time an 'enlightenment' phase came to Europe.
>>19227239Your analysis is from Augustine. Do you think his impression on Paganism is objective and unbiased?
>>19225162This book's falsehoods have been covered adequately anon. Is there really a need to have another thread on the matter?
>>19227239>If Julian actually managed to revive PaganismHe certainly went about it the wrong way. Essentially, he was trying to beat Christianity at their own game with making paganism a much more in-depth system than it actually way
>>19225264>Socrates ScholasticusThat’s one heck of a name
>>19225639Yes, evil won. Yet pagans survived in European spirit despite crusades and suppressions. Maybe you're the one denying the psyche. Your mystics had to sugarcoat your fanaticism with near eastern mysticism to even have a presentable case at hand.
>>19225444So you are going to forget all the Christian, Jewish and Islamic contributions to alchemy and magic? Oh what was invented by? A Jew. When was the highest alchemical output in Europe? The Christian Era.
>>19227448>Oh what was invented by?What was alchemy invented by?Yes, alchemy was invented by a female Jew so you owe us abrahamics for alchemy.
>Christians bad an intolerant>Pagans wise and nobleIt's pure demoralization. You see this with shows like Vikings and The Last Kingdom. Paganism is useful to globohomo because it leads to an impulsive population lead by elites without the need for personal virtue.
>>19227463Consider also that Christianity is at the root of most successful national identity movements as well. It's in the best interests of globohomo to discourage it.
>>19225162Great thread OP
>Apparently Miss Nixey thinks that damage to the frescos in the Mithraeum of Santa Prisca in Rome is clear evidence of the use of an axe by the early Christians. Dr K. blandly suggests that perhaps she missed the work of Bryan Ward-Perkins in 2004, showing that the damage was caused by a failed conservation attempt in 1953.https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog/tag/catherine-nixey/
Christians are leftists. Revolutionary Jews. Tearing down our statues. Renaming our streets and squares. Whipping up a frenzy among the detritus and rightfully outcast, promising them absolution, power, and the illusion of community as long as they renounce their real lives and submit themselves to your political prescriptions. Real religions don’t even know they’re religions. Romans didn’t call themselves Pagan. Pagan is a slang term used by literal city-slickers to describe the yucky, unfashionable, “out of touch” country folk who hadn’t joined the feel-good self-congratulatory social club larping as a religion, but (HORRIFYINGLY) still practiced their nation’s actual traditions. It’s literally the same thing as when a shitlib talks about “red necks” or “flyovers” and their ignorant, old-fashioned beliefs. Jesus and I are both ashamed of Christians.
>>19227499Pagans were literal niggers.
>>19227439> muh near easternNeoplatonism is middle eastern, idiot.> Plotinus (/plɒˈtaJnəs/; Greek: Πλωτῖνος, Plōtînos; c.204/5 – 270) was a major Hellenistic  philosopher born and raised in Roman Egypt, regarded by modern scholarship as the founder of Neoplatonism.>Eunapius reported that Plotinus was born in Lyco, which could either refer to the modern Asyut in Upper Egypt or Deltaic Lycopolis, in Lower Egypt. This has led to speculations that he may have been either native Egyptian, Hellenized Egyptian, Greek, or Roman.>Three distinct phases in classical neoplatonism after Plotinus can be distinguished: the work of his student Porphyry; that of Iamblichus and his school in Syria; and the period in the fifth and sixth centuries, when the Academies in Alexandria and Athens flourished.>Porphyry of Tyre (/ˈpɔːrfJri/; Greek: Πορφύριος, Porphýrios; Arabic: فرفوريوس, Furfūriyūs; c.234 – c.305 AD) was a Phoenician Neoplatonic philosopher born in Tyre, Roman Syria>Iamblichus (/aJˈæmblJkəs/; Greek: Ἰάμβλιχος Iámblichos; Safaitic: 𐩺𐩣𐩴𐩫 /yamlik/ “[the deity] reigns”; c. AD 245 – c. 325) was a Syrian Neoplatonist philosopher of Arab origin. He determined the direction that would later be taken by Neoplatonic philosophy.>The Roman emperor Julian, not content with Eunapius' more modest eulogy that he was inferior to Porphyry only in style, regarded Iamblichus as more than second to Plato, and claimed he would give all the gold of Lydia for one epistle of Iamblichus.
>>19227504Alright pal, you wanna explain what exactly the issue with human sacrifice is? Most of the time they were sacrificing either slaves, captured foreigners, or, in the case of a couple of creepy agricultural rituals, physically deformed people. No part of the sacrifice went to waste. You get a ton of high nutrient meat while also reducing the number of low-quality people in your tribe. Seems like something we should embrace with passion in times like these.
>>19225609Evolution is an actual semitic Babylonian idea that is taught without proof because it's endorsed by the kabalah.https://www.icr.org/article/evolution-religion-not-science/https://archive.org/details/A.n.Field-WhyCollegesBreedCommunists1941/page/n99/mode/2up?q=jews
>>19227538Blah blah blah backward angry noises
>>19227499>Christians are leftists. Revolutionary Jews. Tearing down our statues. Renaming our streets and squares.Yeah I can’t imagine the far right doing anything like that - oh wait…didn’t Nazis literally destroy 12,000 statues after taking over France cause many made them seethe? I guess the far right really aren’t as different as they like to always portray themselves. Also communists are anything like iconoclasts. Have you seen the many statues they’ve built to worship over like pagans did for their Gods?
>>19227554So you restored to whataboutery, jew?
>>19227554Hmm I beginning to think that modern leftists aren’t inspired by ancient Christians….but some other more recent people….
>>19227439>evil wonPretty unpagan of you to complain about POWER. Read about the formation of greek poleis and see how what thrived was whatever managed to conquer and destroy most efficiently.
>>19225494>YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO USE THIS SOURCE THAT PROVES ME WORNG BECAUSE...YOU JUST CAN'T OK
>>19227578I'm not a western pagan anyway. Pretty presumptuous of you to go for the easy mode.
>>19225162The lower culture always assimilates the higher whether now as in Western culture or in the past with the Christians assimilating Pagans.
>>19227632Egon Friedell cultural history of a modern age volume 1
>>19227625> Christians assimilating PagansIs that why Julian so desperately wanted pagans, especially pagan priests, to imitate Christians? > Julian's attempts to reinvigorate the people shifted the focus of paganism from a system of tradition to a religion with some of the same characteristics that he opposed in Christianity. For example, Julian attempted to introduce a tighter organization for the priesthood, with greater qualifications of character and service. Classical paganism simply did not accept this idea of priests as model citizens. Priests were elites with social prestige and financial power who organized festivals and helped pay for them. Yet Julian's attempt to impose moral strictness on the civic position of priesthood only made paganism more in tune with Christian morality, drawing it further from paganism's system of tradition.> Indeed, this development of a pagan order created the foundations of a bridge of reconciliation over which paganism and Christianity could meet. Likewise, Julian's persecution of Christians, who by pagan standards were simply part of a different cult, was quite an un-pagan attitude that transformed paganism into a religion that accepted only one form of religious experience while excluding all others—such as Christianity. In trying to compete with Christianity in this manner, Julian fundamentally changed the nature of pagan worship. That is, he made paganism a religion, whereas it once had been only a system of tradition.
>>19227553>We have to resist the jew>but also believe the jew's metaphysics!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZafFGGNAef8
>>19225456>write a book>put the pope's arguments in the mouth of a moronic character called "simplicio" and have your self insert destroy him with facts and logic>act surprised when he gets pissed off at youNot saying he deserved to be killed for it, but its not like he was trying to avoid it.
>>19227625Maybe with Greco-Roman paganism. But barbaric Germanic paganism had nothing to offer and Christianity was superior it.
>>19227662You’re picking one particular time in the period of the late Roman Empire. My reference is to the overall arc. Christianity over the course of 400 years replaced paganism and in my opinion was an example of an inferior more primitive set of beliefs replacing a more sophisticated system. And honestly that bears out in the archeological record….which are ruins that we knew and still know very little about. Same thing happened on the Colorado plateau that McCarthy references. And some would argue is happening today with the decline of Western culture.
>>19227624A monk and a nun had a child? Such an unholy matrimony could have only produced witches and anti-Christs.
>>19227689The Germanic tribes (Visgoths) were Christian.
>>19225504>Magical and divination texts (which many have still survived and you can search up, but no one reads cause they’re they’re truly shit with no value)>heretical Christian texts like gospel of Thomas or those written by AriansYeah, your retardation is stage four.
324 CE: Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire. At Dydima, Asia Minor, he sacks the Oracle of God Apollo and tortures its priests to death. He also evicts the Gentiles from Mt. Athos and destroys all local Greek Temples.326 CE: Emperor Constantine, following the instructions of his mother Helen, destroys the Temple of Asclepius in Aigeai of Cilicia and several temples dedicated to Aphrodite in Jerusalem, Aphaca, Mambre, Phoenice, Baalbek and elsewhere.335 CE: Constantine sacks countless Greco-Roman temples throughout Asia Minor and Palestine and orders the execution by crucifixion of "all magicians and soothsayers". The Neo-Platonist philosopher Sopatros is executed.341 CE: Emperor Constas, son of Constantinus, persecutes "all the soothsayers and the Hellenists". Many Gentiles are either imprisoned or executed.346 CE: New large-scale persecutions against the Gentiles in Constantinople. Banishment of the famous orator Libanius, who is accused of being a "magician".353 CE: An edict of Constantius orders the death penalty for any form of worship involving sacrifices to "idols".354 CE: A new edict of Constantius orders the closing of all Gentile temples. Some of them are profaned and turned into brothels or gambling rooms. Executions of Gentile priests. First burning of libraries in various cities of the Empire. The first lime factories are built next to closed temples. A large part of religious Greco-Roman art and architecture is turned into lime. 356 CE: A new edict of Constantius orders the destruction of the Gentile temples and the execution of all "idolaters".
>>19227720You're goalpost moving.
357 CE: Constantius outlaws all methods of Divination, including Astrology.359 CE: In Skythopolis, Syria, Christians organize the first death camps for the torture and execution of Gentiles arrested throughout the Empire.361 to 363 CE: Religious tolerance and restoration of ancient cults declared in Constantinople (11th December 361) by the (LAST TRUE) Emperor Flavius Claudius Julianus.363 CE: Assassination of Emperor Julianus (26th June) . 364 CE: Emperor Flavius Jovianus orders the burning of the Library of Antioch. An Imperial edict (11th September) orders the death penalty for all who worship their ancestral Gods or practice Divination ("sileat omnibus perpetuo divinandi uriositas"). Three different edicts (4th February, 9th September, 23rd December) order the confiscation of all properties of the Gentile temples and the death penalty for participation in non-Christian rituals, even private ones.365 CE: An Imperial edict (17th November) forbids Gentile officers of the army from taking command of Christian soldiers.370 CE: Emperor Valens orders a tremendous persecution of Gentiles throughout the Eastern Empire. In Antioch, among many others, the ex-governor Fidustius and the priests Hilarius and Patricius are executed. Tons of books are burnt in the squares of cities throughout the Eastern Empire. All friends of Julianus are persecuted (Orebasius, Sallustius, Pegasius etc.). The philosopher Simonides is burned alive and the philosopher Maximus is decapitated.372 CE: Emperor Valens orders the governor of Asia Minor to exterminate the Gentiles and all their writings.373 CE: New prohibition of all methods of Divination. The term "Pagan" (pagani, villagers) is introduced by the Christians to lessen the Gentiles.375 CE: The Temple of Asclepius in Epidaurus, Greece, is closed down.380 CE: On 27th February, Christianity becomes the exclusive religion of the Roman Empire by an edict of Emperor Flavius Theodosius, requiring that "all the various nations, which are subject to our clemency and moderation should continue in the profession of that religion, which was delivered to the Romans by the divine Apostle Peter". Non-Christians are called "loathsome, heretics, stupid and blind". In another edict Theodosius calls "insane" those that do not believe in the Christian god and outlaws all disagreements with the Church dogmas. Ambrosius, bishop of Milan, starts destroying all the Pagan temples of his area. Christian priests lead a mob against the Temple of Demeter in Eleusis and try to lynch the hierophants Nestorius and Priskus. The 95 year-old hierophant Nestorius ends the Eleusinian Mysteries and announces the predominance of “mental darkness over the human race”.
>>19227702Don’t make me laugh. Germanic paganism was not sophisticated. Go drink some cum and worship some tree like some oppressed blue avatar.> Anglo-Saxon England, within the space of a single generation, pagan warriors had become Christian farmers. Christian burial was rapidly adopted (Wilson 1967), many choosing to be buried in churchyards (Graham-Campbell 1980). By the tenth century their ferocious leaders were commissioning stone crosses and establishing private chapels on their new estates>[the] Evidence... all points to wide acceptance of the new faith already by the end of the 9th century. In the first decade of the 10th century the Danes can still be classed “pagans” by their enemies, but this is the last indication of any continuation of heathen religion (Whitelock 1941, xx).>Those Vikings who, after the late ninth-century partitions of land in East Anglia, Northumbria, and Mercia, settled in the area later known as the Danelaw, were amongst the first Scandinavians to adopt Christianity. They were Christian at least two or three generations before Harold Bluetooth’s claim to the conversion of Denmark (Roesdahl 1997) . The rapid conversion of Scandinavian settlers, so we are led to believe, demonstrates the weakness of their own pagan religions in the face of an all-embracing Christianity
>>19227730>Emperor Constantine declares Christianity as the only official religion of the Roman Empire.First sentence and you're already wrong. Christianity wasn't the sole official religion of the empire until the reign Theodosius. Not even gonna bother reading the rest of whatever you copy and pasted from some reddit post.
>>19227731>muh christcucks didnt destroy ancient culture>except these hundreds of texts that I personally deem uninportant or heretical>stop moving the goalpostEmbarassing
>>19227739The original claim here >>19225444 was that Christians destroyed pagan literature. You got shown wrong so now you've moved the claim to "Christians destroyed ancient culture" whatever that means.
>>19227730>>19227734Nice historical fiction. Constantine never made Christianity the offical religion of the empire.
>>19227746>literature is not cultureYeah, you're a troll, or too retarder. Either way, good grief, my job here is done.
> Show me one evidence or source of Christians deliberately destroying pagan literature like Homer or Virgil> Nope can’t do it but they did it> lack of evidence is not evidence. show me a source > no> show me> no> Show me > noSummary of this video: https://youtu.be/Ss_QwKylzeY
>>19227768You faggots always run away. Better luck next thread, buddy.
Cry more christcucksThere will never be an adequate reckoning for what you have done in the name of lies
>>19227746How is this not obvious? Certainly clearer than the idea Jesus was a real person. From : The Christians As Romans Saw Them by Robert Wilken
>>19227855This doesn't even make sense. If Christians destroyed all the copies of Celsus' writing, how was Origen able to read it and respond to it.?
Christianity became based only once hierarchy and reliable systems of oppression were established. It’s the same with any ideology. Subversive and gay until it’s in charge. Then it rules with a firm, and inevitably conservative, hand.
>>19228500stop describing things as "based", "subversive" and "gay". You sound like a high schooler. Grow up.
>>19225162>I don’t think one can even comprehend just how misleading this book is. Its distortion of history is simply breathtaking. I’m completely in aweProbably because it is anti-Christian propaganda
>>19228500>thinks Christianity didn’t have hierarchy and apostolic authority from the very beginning>thinks that Christians ‘subverted’ anything except for demon worship, pederast and a moribund pagan societyCringe
>>19228628Hmmmm yeah nah I don’t think so. Code switching? Nah mayne this my CULTURE. DIS MY CULCHA. Plus I have a lot of problems with word selection and recall since I started abusing my ADD medication so I think my vocabulary is probably smaller than it was in middle school. I should have killed myself years ago.
>>19227746I'm >>19225444, not >>19227739. Your initial claim was that Christians didn't destroy pre-Christian texts. You not only ignored Augustine, Cyril, and Eusebius not only bragging about this, but then turned around and said that it's a good thing. Seethe more, fag.
>>19227735Just a heads up but the book that you're citing, The Construction of Homosexuality by (((David F. Greenberg))) says that Jesus was a homosexual prostitute and that Christianity is a giant scam to fuck little boys. It also says that Clovis converted to fuck little boys, as did every Christian monarch, because polytheism is an anti-Semitic scheme to destroy homosexuality. I know you didn't look into these claims that you're making before furiously googling "how to btfo white nationalists", but I figured I'd let you in on the meme.
>>19227906It makes perfect sense. There was a time when both pagan and Christian writings were accepted (200s). During this time each side disputes with the other. Later all the pagan writings are burned but the Christian ones are preserved. Therefore we know the pagan ones existed and we can reconstruct their arguments based on what the Christians said of them.Here’s an easier analogy. 1950s. Book A says Trannies should receive electroshock therapy. 1990s. Book B says there are 87 different genders. And Book A is wrong trannies are perfectly normal. 2020s. Book A is controversial and removed from libraries. 2050s. Trannies succeed in lobbying United Nations to force the United Alliance of TechnoCompanies to remove work from internet. 2080s. Possession of error at literature is outlawed and punishable by lifetime in jail. 2126 : western civilization completely fails. 2350: the pieces are picked up again and archeologists and scholars study book b. There are no traces of book A bit we know it exists since it’s referenced by book b.
Ashoka practically genocided the Ajivikas out of existence, Sinhalese Buddhists don't treat Tamil Hindus awfully well, Hindus don't treat dalits particularly well, etc etc. Everyone has blood on their hands, and I'm assuming that the idea that religion can be "culpable for violence" here, something I don't think is entirely accurate. This obviously applies to atheism and the like as well. This level of argumentation is barely above that of the most genuine and naïve defense of humanism.
>>19227867You want citations on an obvious and logical fact here… but easily accept that dinasours were on the ark and Jesus is the son of God. I’m sorry you’re just fucking stupid.
>>19225162This book is absolutely horrendous.
>>19229011This is governed by your materialistic presuppositions
>>19227867City of God, by Augustine.
>>19225359You can see where the practice/mentality comes from though.
>>19229245If it disappeared then it’s probably not that they destroyed it, but that they just didn’t preserve it.
>>19225423She's dumb but it's not either/or. This thread demonstrates your dishonesty and hatred as well.
>>19228681Oh, well news for you, i'm not the anon who originally made that claim either.
>>19228864>Later all the pagan writings are burnedI didn't realize you were this historically illiterate. How do you think we have complete pagan writings today if all of them were burned you fucking tard?>>19229011I don't accept either of those two things. Try to make an argument instead a strawman please.
>>19229059What does Augustine say that verifies the claim?
>>19229059Augustine argues the exact opposite, that pagan learning ought to be preserved and studied>Just as the Egyptians had not only idols and grave burdens which the people of Israel detested and avoided, so also they had vases and ornaments of gold and silver and clothing which the Israelites took with them secretly when they fled, as if to put them to a better use. …. In the same way all the teachings of the pagans contain not only simulated and superstitious imaginings and grave burdens of unnecessary labour, …. but also liberal disciplines more suited to the uses of truth, and some most useful precepts concerning morals. Even some truths concerning the worship of the one God are discovered among them.
>>19227855>>19228864Once more. I’ve already addressed this. >>19225504Christians naturally destroyed anti-Christian polemics like those written by Celsus (although their arguments have still survived by Christian refutation). But this is normal. Pagans would burn Christian writings and anti-pagan polemics as well during Christian persecutions (in fact pagans were the ones who started the practice of book burnings and Christians only followed their example). But you have still provided no evidence whatsoever that Christians actually destroyed valuable pagans works like Iliad, Ovid, Virgil, etc and all that stuff, which is what matters. No gives a shit about heretical Arian texts or anti-Christian polemics.
>Christian do thing = good>non Christian do thing = grr bad
Christians didn't destroy pagan literature. They did destroy a ton of heretical Christian literature, but the conflicts between different Christianities were extremely bitter and intense while paganism died out softly and without a fight, even the brief attempted revival under Julian being pretty much a larp. So while we have virtually nothing from Marcion, or the Valentinians, or Arius, we have quite a decent collection of writing from neoplatonists like Plotinus, Proclus, Porphyry (except his Against the Christians, which *was* burned for obvious reasons), Damascius etc.. They weren't a threat and had some interesting philosophical speculations for a handful of Christians.What it is fair to say however is that most Christians of Late Antiquity thought classical learning was suspicious or irrelevant, and had no value, and they simply didn't bother to read it or copy it. So our only (incomplete) manuscript of Cicero's Republic was scratched out in the 7th century by some monk who wrote yet another copy of Augustine's exposition of the Psalms over it, because parchment was scarce and no-one in monasteries cared what Cicero had to say about constitutional government.
>>19227239Religions don't win or lose because they make the most sense theologically. Hinduism is a good example: if you think paganism lost because polytheism is dumb then how did Hinduism resist the Muslim invasions? The neoplatonists had just as developed a theology of oneness as classical Indian philosophy did. The answer is in their social base: Hinduism had the caste system and the Brahmins to solidify itself, while the social base of Greco-Roman paganism was in the traditional urban aristocracy that collapsed in the crisis of the third century as hyperinflation, plague and war crippled urban society.
>>19225197They probably would have keep a decent collection of books and scrolls there though, like a big church or any centre of religion would.>>19225241>destroyed by the VisigothsThis is the real story of Roman destruction: the Blonde Beasts from the North did it. Christianity preserved some of the Roman inheritance in the West but the great leap backwards into the Middle Ages were the victory of the babarian invasions.
>>19225307Alchemy scammers conning people into believing they could transmutate base metals into gold was a real social problem that needed to be dealt with up until the modern age. Hard to know that the knowledge derived from the attempts would develop into a real science and not remain mere grift.
>>19227769I'm surprised Holland was so lax
>>19229658>they weren't a threat>their writings were burnedHmmm
Wait until you learn about pic related.>Against a backdrop of Islamophobia, Europeans are increasingly airbrushing from history their cultural debt to the Muslim world. But this legacy lives on in some of Europe’s most recognisable buildings, from Notre-Dame Cathedral to the Houses of Parliament. This beautifully illustrated book reveals the Arab and Islamic roots of Europe’s architectural heritage. Diana Darke traces ideas and styles from vibrant Middle Eastern centres like Damascus, Baghdad and Cairo, via Muslim Spain, Venice and Sicily into Europe. She describes how medieval crusaders, pilgrims and merchants encountered Arab Muslim culture on their way to the Holy Land; and explores more recent artistic interaction between Ottoman and Western cultures, including Sir Christopher Wren’s inspirations in the ‘Saracen’ style of Gothic architecture. Recovering this long yet overlooked history of architectural ‘borrowing’, Stealing from the Saracens is a rich tale of cultural exchange, shedding new light on Europe’s greatest landmarks.
>>19230006>Diana Darkeon an unrelated note, why do women love Islam so much?
>>19230075Obvious answer : women desire the carefreeness of being oppressed and limited in what they do by a paternal figure and they aren't getting their fix of that in the western world.
>>19229388>>19229658>they didn't destroy it>but they destroyed it>and it deserved to be destroyed for being wicked and homophobic and anti-semitic and nazi>see? im a good goy, let me into the progressive stack!rod dreher was a mistake