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>be told Hemingway sucks and is overacted for my whole university
>everyone on the internet says Hemingway sucks
>"less is less" "terrible female characters" "macho posturing"
> start reading Carver, Beattie, Richard Ford, and the other people edited by Lish
> realize they are all a bit like Hemingway stories I read in university
> go back and start reading Hemingway
> read In Our Time, major novels
> prose is totally free of lyrical look at me bullshit I see everywhere, no spending 1 page describing outfits, just straight to the story. Just writes what he wants to tell you about with room for interpretation instead of hand-holding.
> realize that Lish crowd are extensions of Hemingway into contemporary life
>realize B.E.E is Hemingway for yuppies.
> realize all of flash fiction is aping early Hemingway
> realize George Saunders is an extension of Hemingway's dislike of phoniness into humor and corporate culture
> Tons of early metafiction is a reaction against Hemingway
> Realize Hemingway is rarely posturing, often has weak male characters trying to overcome their weakness, a lot of the typical male interest is just a rural upbringing and the 'posturing' accusation is urban snobbery
> Hemingway grasps how women are both wonderful (Something Comes to an End, For Whom The Bell Tolls) and terrible ( Sun Also Rises, Short and Happy Life of Francis Macomber)
> a lot of the "terrible women characters..." is just Hemingway being honest about how awful people are and how temporary things are
>realize Hemingway is actually great
>>
>>19051599
Welcome
>>
Never understood what people mean with "hypermasculinity" in Hemingway's work. Topics like war and fishing are pretty masculine, yes, but that's just the nature of it.
>>
cool story bro
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>>19051599
B.E.E. is less than Hemingway although he tries
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>>19051599
I don't understand using The Sun Also Rises as an example of a 'terrible woman.' Brett is one of the greatest female characters I've encountered in any book. And she's not a terrible person from a moral standpoint either.
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>>19051599
He is stylistically so influential. Whenever I try something contemporary I think it reads like a Hemingway book.
>>
Hemingway and Joyce are the two most influential English-language writers of the 20th century.

You can build entire family trees with those two
>>
if someone decided to do a daily thread on /lit/, even if he had nothing to post about, just out of discipline and with some gimmick like a telegraph style, he would be banned soon. but op would still read his book.
>>
Nearly everybody you meet who tries to write like Hemingway or likes Hemingway is a total douche and a faggot, and yet somehow, Hemingway himself is great.
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>>19051726
same thing goes for Cormac McCarthy
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>>19051615
Hemingway's male characters didn't have erotic fantasies about getting it up the ass, so they're hypermasculine.
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>>19051754
read the garden of eden
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>>19051726
I agree wholeheartedly. I dislike the Hemingway imitators but when I read Hemingway I realized I actually like him. I think maybe he had more of an ear for the sound and length of sentences than we give him credit for. He reads very smoothly. The opening chapter to A Farewell to Arms is like that, it rolls our so effortlessly, like water.
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>>19051781
Correction: didn't ALL have erotic fantasies about getting it up the ass
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>>19051599
90% of all Hemingway hate from women is due to issues with their daddy. The other 10% is from sucking a Hemingway fans dick for a couple of years.
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>>19051781
rewritten by his tranny son with the help of his resentful widow
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>>19051649
*ahem*
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>>19051981
Faulkner is very influenced by Joyce
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>>19051782
People underestimate how great of a stylist Hemingway was. They perceive because most of his sentences are simple and direct not much effort is involved in stylising.

> That night at the hotel, in our room with the long empty hall outside and our shoes outside the door, a thick carpet on the floor of the room, outside the windows the rain falling and in the room light and pleasant and cheerful, then the light out and it exciting with smooth sheets and the bed comfortable, feeling that we had come home, feeling no longer alone, waking in the night to find the other one there, and not gone away; all other things were unreal. We slept when we were tired and if we woke the other one woke so no one was not alone. Often a man wishes to be alone and a girl wishes to be alone too and if they love each other they are jealous of that in each other, but I can truly say we never felt that. We could feel alone when we were together, alone against the others. It has only happened to me like that once. I have been alone while I Was with many girls and that is the way you can be most lonely. But we were never lonely and never afraid when we were together. I know that the night is not the same as the day: that all things are different, that the things of the night cannot be explained in the day, because they do not then exist, and the night can be a dreadful time for lonely people once their loneliness has started. But with Catherine there was almost no difference in the night except that it was an even better time. If people bring so much courage to this world the world has to kill them to break them, so of course it kills them. The world breaks every one and afterward many are strong at the broken places. But those that will not break it kills. It kills the very good and the very gentle and the very brave impartially. If you are none of these you can be sure it will kill you too but there will be no special hurry.

This is masterful style.
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>>19051599
it really is ironic how many people who bitch about hemingway also write is styles absolutely cribbed from his
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>>19051599
Correct
>>
Alright, read The Old Man and The Sea.

Tell me what happens besides “there’s this guy right, and he’s old but he’s really tough and DETERMINED. So he goes out and fishes and the entire story is about this guy that is really tough so he does a lot of stuff that shows determination and toughness. In the end, he loses the fish!”

It’s drearily macho in that regard, it’s like he’s writing a tv script for a SpikeTV show.

Albeit, if you’re reflecting on the story afterwards and really examining the relationship between the Old Man and the fish that is able to be told, Hemingway’s writing style is amazing at establishing that relationship. Somehow he manages to morph both the fish and the Old Man into a symbiotic relationship that accentuates the struggle at hand, which in turn gives a riveting account of the processes of determination in one’s mind (over a prolonged period of time, enabling such processes of determination to be examined thoroughly).

I haven’t read any of his other literature, just that one bc my mom picked me up a copy when she went to Hemingway’s house. All together though, I hated Hemingway’s “The Old Man and the Sea” in the beginning and I still do, but fuck his literature is written for people who can’t examine masculinity from an institutional perspective.
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>>19051847
>his tranny son
lol did he really
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>>19052579
are you 12?
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>>19052579
>Tell me what happens besides “there’s this guy right, and he’s old but he’s really tough and DETERMINED. So he goes out and fishes and the entire story is about this guy that is really tough so he does a lot of stuff that shows determination and toughness. In the end, he loses the fish!”
The Old Man and the Sea is a great novels because it tells such a deep and complete story with elegant simplicity.
The story is about Santiago's attempts to restore his own pride and honor. It's about a man struggling with life, and between the lines with his own death. I'd say it's more about that than his mere determination to catch a fish. Hint hint, Santiago dreams of a group of lions. What's the term for a lion's group? A pride.
Santiago, during the climax, becomes a noble knight as he fights for his fish. One can scarcely imagine a braver and more devoted fighter than Santiago. All that struggle. This is Sisyphus. This is Christ in Gethsemane. Yet he loses. What's interesting is that in the process, he proved to the other fisherman that he really was damn good, in a sense. All glory, but only for a skeleton of a fish.
The purely macho angle entirely misses the point. Which leads me to believe that those who are fixated on the masculinity aspect among academia also miss this interesting theme, unfortunately. There is something masculine about the story during the actual struggle, as Santiago exhibits a martial virtue. But the thematic content id far deeper.
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>>19051637
Doesn't she just spend the entire book getting all the men to fight over her, then turns them all against each other? Eventually she just hooks up with a matador anyway
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>>19051649
>deal with him Hemingway, deal with him.
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>>19052710
kek
>Hemingway’s 1961 obituary in The New York Times characterized Joyce as “a thin, wispy and unmuscled man with defective eyesight” (perhaps the result of a syphilis infection), and also notes that the two writers “did a certain amount of drinking together” in Paris.... the Ulysses author would pick drunken fights, then duck behind his burly friend and say, “Deal with him, Hemingway. Deal with him.” (That scene also gets mentioned in The Times obituary.) Hemingway, who convinced himself at one time he had the makings of a real pugilist, was likely happy to oblige. Joyce, writes Hemingway biographer James R. Mellow, “was an admirer of Hemingway’s adventurous lifestyle” and worried aloud that his books were too “suburban” next to those of his friend, of whom he said in a Danish interview, “he’s a good writer, Hemingway. He writes as he is… there is much more behind Hemingway’s form than people know.”
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>>19052026
I love this paragraph, it's perfect
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>>19052579
Please go and visit a gym, try to raise your testosterone, stop masturbating so much
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>>19051754
Hemingway on the other hand...
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>>19052771
Masturbating increases t-levels, bro.
>>
>>19052579
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSu9WSfE2xk
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>>19052788
maybe a little if you do it once a month. otherwise no, it lowers.
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>>19052771
Oh hush up you ogre. How droll you are.
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>>19051599
>"less is less"
It really isn't. I fucking hate literature people obsessed with prose.
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>>19051981
He's good but not as influental.
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>>19052999
what
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>>19052724
I had no idea they were friends
Amazing
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>>19053207
I understand this view. The problem with prosefags is that they either granulate to nothing or expand endlessly with pointlessly purple descriptions. There tends to be no in-between. Prose is a means to an end. Treat it how you'd like
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>>19051599
I only read the Old Man and the Sea, which was ok, and For Whom the Bell Tolls, which I found atrocious.
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My mother hates Hemingway, I don't get why he's so controversial.
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>>19051599
Read a few of his books even though I didn't like them much, only thing that really stuck was that one chapter from For Whom the Bell Tolls. The lack of lyricism is a minus
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>>19053283
Maybe only women hate him
>>
>>19052579
>>19052681
Wtf? I thought he caught the fish! What a loser!
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>>19051599
You're right, he was *very* influential. So influential that his achievement is obscured because the world he invented is now just considered "normality".

Someone-or-other said, "every single writer after Hemingway is indebted to Hemingway, with the exception of Nabokov". That's an exaggeration but not a huge one..
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>>19052579
>It’s drearily macho

I hate fags so much bros...
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>>19052026
>That night at the hotel, in our room with the long empty hall outside and our shoes outside the door, a thick carpet on the floor of the room, outside the windows the rain falling and in the room light and pleasant and cheerful, then the light out and it exciting with smooth sheets and the bed comfortable, feeling that we had come home,
What the fuck is he saying?
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>>19053226
if you want an escape from bad prose you should read Flaubert, Stendhal and Henry James they write prose how it's supposed to be written
--
on another note unrelated, Hemingway in my mind is an american mishima, Laconic, concise, and modernist. The best of all traits prose can offer and is of peak quality for it's time even in comparison to a lot of the non-modernist hogwash sentimental poetry that had peaked afterwards.
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>>19051599
>everyone on the internet says Hemingway sucks
>"less is less" "terrible female characters" "macho posturing"
Maybe you should stop visiting reddit.
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>>19053761
How can you not comprehend this?
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>>19052689
No. She doesn't 'get' all the men to fight over her. The men of the novel were going to fight over her no matter what decision she made, this was a fate out of her control.
>>
Where do i start with him? Not a burger here.
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>>19054040
literally anywhere.
for hemingway, order only matters if you are a complete beginner
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>>19054075
>complete beginner
meant eginner in literature.
as straightforward as hemingway's books are, retards still get filtered
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>>19051599
>and the other people edited by Lish
>> realize they are all a bit like Hemingway stories I read in university
>>> realize that Lish crowd are extensions of Hemingway into contemporary life
You do realize most of what lish's edits is extremely experimental writing that has nothing to do with hemingway at all? Carver saga was what made lish infamous but he could care less about the stories and carver himself. Also, just because something is minimalistic does not mean its "lesser hemingway" like the fuck? Most of his stuff and style is self-inspired and taken from his journalistic background, this is the case with a ton of american writers: Kerouac, Hunter S Thomp., McCarthy, etc. Most of these guys are self inspired by their travels and end up having dry" styles of writing. If were talking of influence Fitzgerald had a hand in helping Hemingway a lot and The Great Gatsby has better prose and feels much more filled with content than any 1 hemingway book.

I don't even hate hemingway like most on here, i enjoy a lot of his output but to say hes THIS influential not name any of his peers at the time(hmm who could they be?) is just absurd. Also, name dropping Lish as if he's relevant here at all... I actually wonder if he's even read any Hemingway considers Carver's stories are basically his lmao
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>>19053897
I can but why the fuck did he say it like that? It's written really poorly
>muh style
Kys
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>>19052788
no.
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>>19051615
>hypermasculinity
I wonder who could be behind remarks like this.
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>>19052945
>Oh hush up you ogre. How droll you are.
lol @ trying to sound posh and failing
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>>19051599
>>be told Hemingway sucks and is overacted for my whole university
>>everyone on the internet says Hemingway sucks
>>"less is less" "terrible female characters" "macho posturing"
I would understand and accept this if the people who said it thought modern and postmodern maximalists like Gaddis Gass or Barth were what literature should be. But they never do; they just read woke versions of simple prose.
>>
>>19051599
Read his retard novel Across the River and Through the Trees and you'll see without the flashy persona and the appeals to your ego what Hemingway's writing truly is

>>19051847
So his son and widow wrote the best Hemingway book, kek?

>>19051637
lol she's a criticism of a liberated female, feminists have seethed about that book, as have Jews with Robert Cohn.

>>19051649
Yes and that's not necessarily a good thing. Most of the pulp writers, or genre writers like Wells and Conrad were clearly more well-read and better writers than Hemingway. Nabokov, Lowry, and Faulkner are clearly much better.

>>19053203
He's an actual writer Hemingway wrote his books to sell modernism and himself to most people. His hypermasculine persona is a marketing technique to get men to read his books.

>>19053273
For Whom the Bell Tolls is pretty bad, it's Hemingway at his worst. The dialogue and exposition are grating and endless. Sun Also Rises is just a more-vanilla Kerouac novel, and Farewell to Arms is mediocre. He's not great in all honesty. I'd reccomend Garden of Eden or Islands in the Stream as last-effort Hemingways. Maybe his retard book too: Across the River and Into the Streams, I did enjoy that one.

>>19055281
Yeah it's written poorly.
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>>19052026
Right, this sort of writing really isn't easy, and is no sort of macho posturing
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>>19055344
>For Whom the Bell Tolls is pretty bad, it's Hemingway at his worst.
The section where Pilar recounts the day her people took over the town and rounded up the fascists was the finest, most visceral bit of writing Hemingway ever did. It was sheer divinity.
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>>19055373
Bad writing doesn't turn good even if the subject matter is something you enjoy.
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>>19055373
I thought it was heavy-handed and melodramatic, and think that type of writing is easy to sympathize with an already impressionable American audience. It's the literary equivalent of Spielberg or Casablanca.
Pure divinity is God-tier Melville prose, or Swinburne's poetry not this stuff.

I may be thinking of the Valencia monologue though, do you have an excerpt? Also, every character spoke like an archtype in that book. The gypsy and old-man and Pablo were so cliched. Not to mention it's like 300 pages longer than his other books.
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>>19051599
Hemingway was hypermasculine, but his writing was NOT.
The inverse is true for Robert E Howard though.
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>>19051599
Congratulations on becoming a man.
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>>19052026
Frugal and boring.
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>>19052710
>>19052724
haha what in the fuck
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>>19051599
I really like Hemingway too
>>
It's just liberals crying that white men exist. Nothing to see here
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>>19052026
>We slept when we were tired and if we woke the other one woke so no one was not alone. Often a man wishes to be alone and a girl wishes to be alone too and if they love each other they are jealous of that in each other, but I can truly say we never felt that. We could feel alone when we were together, alone against the others. It has only happened to me like that once. I have been alone while I Was with many girls and that is the way you can be most lonely. But we were never lonely and never afraid when we were together.
What in the name of teenage angst cringe fest is this shit?
>>
How can Hemingways titles be so perfect?
>>
who the fuck actually hates hemingway?

if you genuinely believe he's mediocre, you will never understand literature, period.
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>>19055947
From the Hemingway Library edition of A Farewell to Arms:
>Possible titles for the novel are listed [below]... the earliest titles clearly associated with the book appear on the first page of the handwritten manuscript: "The World's Room" and "Nights and Forever." Two additional titles appear later in the same manuscript on an inserted typewritten page: "A Seperate Peace" and "The Hill of Heaven" (added in Hemingway's hand).

Here's the list of titles Hemingway considered for A Farewell to Arms:
>Love in War
>Sorrow for Pleasure
>A Farewell to Arms
>Late Wisdom (underlined)
>The Enchantment (underlined & crossed out)
>If You Must Love (underlined)
>World Enough and Time
>In Praise of His Mistress (underlined)
>Every Night and All
>Of Wounds and Other Causes
>The Retreat from Italy (underlined)
>As Others Are
>Love is one fervent fire
>Kindlit without Desire
>A World to See
>Patriots Progress
>The Grand Tour
>The Italian Journey (underlined)
>The World's Room
>Disorder and Early Sorrow
>An Italian Chronicle
>The Time Exchanged
>Death once Dead
>They who get shot
>The Italian Experience (underlined)
>Love in Italy
>Love in War
>The Sentimental Education (underlined)
>In Another Country and Besides (underlined)
>Education of the Flesh
>The Carnal Education
>The Sentimental Education
>The Sentimental Education of Frederick Henry
from another handwritten page of possible titles:
>Thing That Has Been
>Nights and Forever
>In Another Country
>Knowledge Increaseth Sorror
>The Peculiar Treasure
>One Event Happeneth To Them All
>One Thing For Them All
>Nothing Better For A Man
>Time of War
>The World's Room
>One Thing is Certain (underlined)
>The Long Home
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>>19055997
>Knowledge Increaseth Sorror
Sorrow*
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>>19051649
Nah, not really. Joyce for sure, no doubt. But Hemingway wasn't very influential outside the English-sphere until not very long ago. Might be anecdotal but non English speaking writers would never mention Hemingway during most of the XXth century. Eliot, Joyce and Faulkner, however, where widely loved. Eliot's case is specially interesting as people seemed to be reading him even before English was the lingua franca of the world.
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>>19056071
He was probably referring to English literature and it is very true that Hemingway has been incredibly influential there.
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>>19051981
The faulkner anons are getting uppity
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>>19051599
only read the first and the last line and you're a predictable human being

and so obviously like Hemingway

he's decent but he's nowhere near Faulkner, Melville, Roth etc.
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>>19052026
>This is masterful style.

Indeed. And not just style, but substance too.

I recall him pointing that out in one of his Esquire articles in the collected journalism volume (a must-read if you're a Hem fan), in which he frequently gave writing tips: He pointed out that although everyone focused on his distinctive style, it was the *substance* of his writing that made his writing powerful and memorable.
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>>19056590
How is that masterful prose. I swear to christ you psueds are too much.
How is:
>That night at the hotel, in our room with the long empty hall outside and our shoes outside the door, a thick carpet on the floor of the room, outside the windows the rain falling and in the room light and pleasant and cheerful, then the light out and it exciting with smooth sheets and the bed comfortable
'""masterful''''''
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>>19056621
If you gotta ask, you'll never know.
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>>19056621
Sometimes I really hate this website.
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>>19056430
>Roth
>>
Hemmingway filters women and faggots.
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>>19055344
>>19055384
>>19055490
>>19055906
>>19056621

lmao it’s fine to not like a writer or their style but why do you people act like you know what you’re talking about

American hours on this website are the worst
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>>19056786
All hours are American hours



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