Is Hermeticism even remotely relavent in today's world?
Depends, but in terms of spirituality yes absolutely
midwit here. not sure what it is.
>>18697162Foundational esoteric tradition. Read the tabula smaragdina, it's like 10 sentences long
>>18697162Heretical pagan bullshit
What are the basics of Hermeticism? Someone break it down for me.
some people did some things and that’s why the world where it is right nowanyone on /xpol/ and is still alive today will tell you the same thing. anons you ask this on this website, of all websites. digits, racist frogs, are you people deliberately this hardheaded? why do you think they have to keep talking about russian hackers like we all weren’t here to see it.normie boards are the worst
>asked to define Hermeticism>"it's like a more occult neoplatonism">asked to define neoplatonism">"it's like a later modified platonism">asked to define platonism>deer in headlights
>>18697192There are seven principles associated with it, but it's often said that they are a much later addition to the original texts.>the All is mind; the universe is mental>as above, so below; as within, so without>everything moves, everything vibrates, nothing rests>everything oscillates; the measure of the swing to the left is the measure of the swing to the right >rhythm is in everything>every effect has its cause, every cause its effect>gendersource: KybalionAlthough the actual hermetic texts don't spell it out like that, they don't seem to disagree from what I've read
>>18697223>>18697141I think these principles are very relevant now if you still haven’t overcome living a material, nihilistic, consumer lifestyle with a strictly scientific worldview. Life is beyond meat and matter and life is better when you realize this.
>>18697214>asked to define platonismIts a continuation of the Pythagorean tradition without the emphasis on geometry and numbers.
>>18697283>asked to define Pythagorean tradition
>>18697290>asked to define defining>implodes
>>18697297But why indeed anon.>asked to define "why"Go ahead
>>18697223The kybalion is not hermetic
>>18698078It claims to be
What's the best translation of the hermetica? Should I read copenhaver?
>>18697141I need a hermitists library must have books.
>>18697290Its a continuation of the Druidic tradition from Hyperborea
>>18698384Which is a continuation of the Atlantian tradition
>>18697141No, of course not. What kind of a stupid question is that? I suppose you can read some old bullshit if you like and then relate it today's world in order to validate yourself, but this would plainly be a false reading on account of the intrinsic bullshittery of the whole cope.
>>18697180Holy cope. What isn't pagan to you faggot? Hermeticism has more uses to us than semite legalism
>>18697223Kybalion is new age 20th century larp. It has as much connection to the hermetic tradition as instagram influencers selling salt crystal lamps.
>>18697141Yes, if you want to embrace a form of esotericism without leaving the western tradition.>>18698085Every man and his daemon claimed to be Hermetic at one point, see >>18698498>>18698216Yes, Litwa also translated the other Hermetic frgaments in Hermetica II if you want to follow up >>18697180The Church writers, such as Lactantius, who cited Hermes (understood as the Prophet Enoch/Idris in certain streams of thought, especially Islamic) would be surprised to hear that
>>18697141Yes, and I will not elaborate on this claim.
>>1869722320th century Hermeticism has a relation to earlier Hermeticism, alchemy, and Kabbalah in the same way that New Age Western Buddhism has a relationship with other strands of Buddhism. It picks and chooses bits of interest, mixing different traditions, and then incorporates a whole bunch of New Age mystique from the current era. Thus late 19th and early 20th century "Occult" has a lot of Freud, Jung, medium's communicating with the spirit world, magical electricity, aether, and ESP. Sort of how modern New Age will invoke quantum mechanics, because it is new and mysterious.However, Crowley's Quabbalah is not Kabbalah obviously. Schloem is widely considered the authoritative historical scholar on Kabbalah and his On The Kabblah and Its Symbolism is a great work on mysticism in general.Pic related is a good practical work on modern Hermeticism that avoids a bunch of the New Age pitfalls. There is a lot of cross fertilization between Platonism, Gnosticism, Kabbalah, Alchemy, and Hermeticism. Schloem traces the origins.of Kabbalah back to Jewish Gnostics.I found Hermeticism less interesting than other mystical threads. I bounced around a lot and finally had a flash of insight with Boehme's The Signature of All Things, which led me to the systematized logical development of that mystical tradition by Hegel.>>18697223You can see the influence of Heraclitus here. One of the underappreciated contributions of the Gnostics was to reject Plato's eternal and independent forms, and posit a Heraclitean semiotics of the tension of opposites instead. Absolute meanings proceed from the Absolute, the Monad, as emanations, but are created in pairs of tension. Heraclitus thus moves back into the fore, and this gets around the reductio ad absurdum of the Theory of Forms.Boehme takes this a step forward by introduction semiotic necessity to these emanations. God cannot know Itself, cannont be defined without something which it is not. Thus it posits the other to know itself.Hegel takes this semiotics of negation further and builds up a logical system of dialectic to explain Boehme's key insight.
>>18699263If I want to get into Tarot for creative/storytelling purposes (horror fiction), which deck should I get? The standard Rider-Waite or Crowley's Thoth?
>>18699298Standard Rider-Waite. Crowley’s deck uses a lot of esoteric symbolism, while Rider-Waite uses more archetypal images that will be better for story telling purposes.
>>18699320Precise answer, thanks. Any beginner tips?
>>18699320For example, the Rider-Waite high priestess (second card in the top row) drifts a beautiful standing in front of a veil (presumably leading to the underworld) decorated with pomegranates, calling to mind the goddess Persephone. On the other hand, Crowley’s high priestess (second card in the middle row) stands behind a camel, which is associated with the path of gimel on the qabalistic tree of life’s to which this card is assigned.
>>18699329If you’re using the cards for story telling purposes, don’t bother memorizing the divinatory meaning of the cards. Just focus on the imagery and the symbolism (which is still present, it’s just not as esoteric as Crowley’s.)
>>18699339Yeah Rider-Waite seems far more universal, applicable to most characters or plots I could come up with.
>>18699263>One of the underappreciated contributions of the Gnostics was to reject Plato's eternal and independent formsPlato already did that to himself nigga
>>18699349Will do, appreciated
>>18699263Is Bardon's book good if I'm looking for practical, clear steps towards self-initiation and building a personal practice, rather than theoretical musings?
>>18699263How do you determine when new age material makes false claims that need to be disregarded, and when it presents valuable insights?Some authors I'm currently reading would be grouped into the new age category, namely Monroe and Castaneda. I'm extremely interested in these two people's experiences and the way they are presented to the reader is unique and has no genuine equivalent elsewhere. But I don't want to fall into misunderstandings and misconceptions, so how should I proceed?
>>18699484Forgot to mention but Jung is also grouped into new age and he made interesting and worthwhile contributions, so this whole qualification is muddled and confusing to me. So-called "energy workers" who deal with crystals and bastardizations of chakras are obviously charlatans but it's not just that and I get the impression /lit/ tends to forget that.
Tarot is a sin tho
>>18698085The Kybalion is more of a New Thought treatise that pretends to be Hermetic.
>>18699484Depends on what you are looking for. For a historical perspective, New Age is worse than useless because it invents fake histories. From a practical purpose, syncretic thought might be very useful. A useful guideline is to see if the appeals to tradition are used practically, or if they are basically just there to add authority and mystery.Second is bearing in mind that plenty of traditional and New Age works have ridiculous, falsifiable claims you can safely disgard. No evidence of Platonic sameness and difference particles in an X shape have ever emerged, Decartes theater of the mind doesn't appear in modern neuroscience, etc.I liked Casteneda but it's worth noting that his reports are falsified. Don Juan and the various hallucinations he undergoes do not reflect real experiences. It is a work of fiction, but is still a good read.
>>18699665Tarot is about accessing the subconscious and it's interpretation of major zeitgeist symbiology to help the person get over their current problems within their own mind, proactively. It's not really a sin. It's people just talking it out, but with picture cards.
>>18700064>appeals to traditionIn the main interests I mentioned (Castaneda and Monroe), tradition is pretty much outright disregarded. Monroe has his own experiences that are completely separate from any belief system and he makes no appeal to any religion or philosophy. Haven't read a lot of Castaneda yet but he seems to similarly disregard what isn't part of the shamanism his books are about.>ridiculous, falsifiable claims you can safely disgard.Similarly here, Monroe's work on OBEs, even if it's not empirical, can be replicated easily. He doesn't make any outlandish scientific claims or anything of the sort.Yet some people dislike him specifically for the reason stated above; that he disregards traditions and just works with his own system, which he explains in detail to the reader. There are absolutely no references to any existing traditions or systems, on the contrary he rejects all of them and relates what he saw during his experiences in a factual and relatively unbiased manner.Since you made references to several very ancient, established esoteric traditions like Kabbalah or Hermeticism, and warned against works that would distort or cherrypick from these traditions to present an erroneous viewpoint, I'm assuming your criticism doesn't extend to works that simply have no actual ties to any ancient traditions?>his reports are falsifiedWas that really confirmed? How can we know his experiences were not real at all?
>>18699320Opinion on Jodorowsky/Camoin's tarot of Marseilles?
>>18700112It's pretty based. Most tarot books are generally the same, but his was pretty fantastic in that it's both his personal story with the cards and some research he has done. Also he covers the same shit every other tarot book does.
>>18700086Ahhh... Mental gymnastics. Okay.
>>18700158How else would you find out you want to be gay with your dad, anon?
>>18700100Sure, if there is nothing historical being presented, you can't present it wrong. I'm not a Casteneda expert, only read a few books, but I believe he later admitted to writing fiction.
>>18698417Literally incomprehensible, needs more buzzwords
>>18700158Too hard to follow, huh?
>>18700298It seems like 80% of people on /lit/ don't like big words today. I'm gone for a week and it's turned to even more shit.
OP, you know how there are tons of self-help books that get posted here? Think of hermeticism as beyond all of that. Hermeticism is self-help for becoming God. Hermeticism is about hacking the universe while there are bitches trying to lose five pounds.Hermeticism isn't for everyone. It isn't even for most. Just keep that in mind if you choose to pursue it.
>>18699431bumpHeard Evola's Intro to Magic was good too.
>>18700258So there's nothing wrong with new thought per se, just the historical inaccuracies, simplifications and false statements that sometimes get thrown around and lead to misunderstandings?
>>18700322Arguing about that book is 1/4th of the posts in the /x/ hermeticism/chaos magic threads.
>>18700383Which one, Evola's or Bardon's, and why is it so controversial?I'm just looking for the best practical guide out there and both were recommended several times.
>>18700390Evola.Probably for the same reason /lit/ argues about evola. /x/ has a mega thread with tons of books, just go start looking through them. Anons will rec the beginning texts depending on what yo want.
>>18700394/omg/ I assume? I thought /x/ was more into shit like chaos magic and goetia than hermeticism and the great work.
>>18700375Right. Being old doesn't make something correct anyhow. A problem New Age authors fall into though is using age as an appeal to authority, while simultaneously misrepresenting older works.
No. The bits of truth it gets at were pulled out and subsumed into what is still the greatest work of human insight in history, the Phenomenology.It's still the end goal.
>>18700433Substantiate your claims.
>>18697141No. Nothing besides Netflix, BLM, Pride, and Tiktok are relevant. You got the vaccine, right?
>>18697167>Though attributed to the legendary Hellenistic figure Hermes Trismegistus, the text of the Emerald Tablet first appears in a number of early medieval Arabic sources, the oldest of which dates to the late eighth or early ninth century(i.e. its a cringe LARP)vs>The "philosophical" Hermetica: this category contains religio-philosophical treatises which were mostly written in the second and third centuries CE, though the very earliest one of them, the Definitions of Hermes Trismegistus to Asclepius, may go back to the first century CE(i.e. these are the actual hermetic texts)
>>18699484the claims they make about spirituality you are free to either believe or disbelieve, and the claims they make about history are probably all complete fucking bullshit
>>18700811>actual hermetic textsI've read those too. There's one phrase that often comes to mind.>for the contention is of two against one
>>18700400Chaos magick and demonolatry is just as much part of the great work as hermeticism innit/x/ is into all of it
>>18701002>just as much part of the great workHow so? Isn't stuff like thelema, theosophy, LHRP and all the other things /x/ does mostly unrelated to spiritual advancement?I thought those techniques were mainly about experiencing the supernatural or gaining powers, as opposed to actually changing yourself, rising through divinization and the refinement of the subtle body, et ceteraThe magick shit just seems like a dead-end. Am I completely wrong?
>>18697141I haven't looked that much into Hermeticism yet, but I found this interesting: https://lukesmith.xyz/articles/hedonism-asceticism-and-the-hermetic-answer
>>18701018I'd say so. Shit goes hand in hand. The LBRP is entirely about refining the subtle body, for example. In terms of the Goetia there are a bunch of spirits related to improving and mastering divination, and Thelema is about finding one's True Will, which is both about one's personal power AND wisdom. The magick stuff is an avenue to ascension, but of course not the only one by any means. (although the argument again can be made, depending on the definition of magick, that all is magick)
>>18699431I haven't read Evola, but I have practiced Franz Bardon's Initiation into Hermetics. It is probably the best path I've found but won't hold your hand whatsoever. It's best if you supplement it with several other books as well, but keep in mind in this genre of books there's some contradicting information, and the only way to verify any of it is through practice, and Bardon will teach you the best practices. Easier books to work out of are John Michael Greer's Learning Ritual Magic (and this one will give you really good books to read up on theory stuff as well), and if you really wanna go easy mode Damien Echols' books are very well written but also very basic. Damien Echols' youtube videos have some exceptional content on ritual magick though. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCnRyoC6Oww6FrYVc-BxKyDg/videos
>>18701044I don't like using this term, but I just got the impression from my surface-level understanding that magick was kind of "larpy". I just don't see why you'd choose to go down that path instead of exploring something like hermeticism or tantra for example, both of which are extremely rich and have the benefit of not having come into existence less than a century ago.
>>18701051>It is probably the best path I've foundWhich other paths have you tried or dabbled into?Thank you for the recommendations, regarding the theory I was simply thinking of reading the Hermetica and Asclepius since they're the most foundational texts. I thought Bardon's book alone took care of the practical side but I'll check out Greer and Echols.
>>18701072Kabbalah, Magic, and the Great Work of Self-Transformation by Lyam Thomas Christopher is where I got started, its definitely serviceable but when you get more into it you realize a lot of the Golden Dawn stuff is fluff, and what is there is probably better learned through just reading the Golden Dawn book itself and working it out from there. Like the Golden Dawn, Thelema stuff can be very good but its hit or miss. Modern practices based on occult lodges from 100+ years ago usually have a core of truth that has been completely warped into an abomination. There are some discords I've seen filled with official OTO Thelemites that have read all of the stuff and use the information to seem better than other people or brag or whatever, which ironically sets them back further than normies as far as the Great Work is concerned. In general there is a lot of useful stuff to be gained from such sources but its mostly a waste of time, so in general avoid anything modern (but don't forget there is genuinely lots of good info there.)I have also tried some other modern schools like Quareia (different angle, fairly interesting, but just a different flavor of Golden Dawn fluff like everything else. Worse in a lot of ways.) Generally the best method is to just read a bunch of stuff, find specific authors who do work you're interested in, and read through their work. Eventually work your way up to studying Alchemy because Alchemy is where you'll find all of the real information about the Great Work, but you won't be able to recognize it at first. Remember that at the end of the day it all boils down to mental training and pattern recognition in the beginning. Then you begin to recognize the "daemon" in your life. Certain themes or topics randomly pop into your life out of nowhere and grip you. Follow these trends and give yourself over to trying to understand what's happening. Try to build a rapport with the thing interacting with you through the events in your life, and try to understand what its all building towards. Eventually there is a breakthrough, and you'll be guided by that "spirit" "holy guardian angel" "daemon" whatever you want to call it through the rest of it. Basic magical work is all to prepare your mind, body, and soul and to get you to the point of contact. From there the Great Work reveals itself to you, and its all a very personalized process. But just focus on the practices, like I said Bardon's book is (I believe) the best way to get there, focus on pattern recognition and trying to understand why and how everything fits together the way that it does, and eventually you'll be better guided by your inner self than by any book. This is why practice is more important than reading, but reading helps contextualize and get you thinking about the right things.
>>18701072>>18701188Sorry my formatting is so shit lol I don't really do big write ups on 4chan
>>18701059It's completely understandable. In fact ritual magick (and ritual in general) by its nature has a larp-y aspect to it. From personal experience I can tell you that there's value in it. I doubled my neetbux a year ago after making a sigil and personalized ritual for it.It's a question of inclination and goals. Some people want the orderly aspects, some people just want physical success, some people want wisdom. imo all of that can be achieved through any given path
>>18701072Also keep in mind that if you do read Damien Echols start with High Magick, it'll be very basic but it gives you the fundamentals, and then move onto Angels & Archangels, which is an exceptional book at getting into some of the much more advanced ritual stuff that rarely gets talked about, made very accessible. Its kind of disorientating how fast you get from super basic practices to literally the most advanced 3 hour+ intense daily rituals, but its all presented in the most followable way I've seen.
>>18700818O9A is run by a woman spic now, obviously they don’t know what the fuck is going on
>>18701380>09A is run by
>>18701188>in general avoid everything modernYeah it seems to me that those modern occult groups like GD took a lot of things from kabbalistic and hermetic practices but that in the end their system isn't any better and that some practices or teachings are sometimes questionable or at least spin the truth in their own ways.>you won't be able to recognize it at firstYou're talking about things like the Picatrix where if you're an amateur you won't get any of the symbolism (and might harm yourself)?What you're saying about recognizing the daemon sounds similar to synchronicity which has been happening to me on and off for some time.So I understand correctly, I should start with a regular practice with books like Bardon's, Greer's etc in order to guide me to the point where I'll be able to recognize the daemon, and from there, the great work takes an entirely individual shape specific to my own path, so I'll have to wing it?>>18701304Alright thanks. Right now I'm looking at both hermetic/kabbalistic and tantric sources, I guess I'll need to focus on one of them at some point.
>>18701380>>18701388O9A is run by the CIA, we all know this
>>18701303Aren't you a bit spooked by the idea of letting such powerful influences into your life willingly? Are you able to clearly identify their intentions? Surely this kind of help comes at a cost. I personally don't care for physical success and simply want practical knowledge that I can put to use towards transcendence but I think nefarious influences exist in those domains as well.
>>18701391Yeah pretty much, when you get into this field you have to realize that the goal is to be able to see the pattern of the universe and understand it. This is why so many different paths work. They're all just derived from observations of the same pattern. This is why I say pattern recognition is so important. Tantra stuff (I am no expert in eastern stuff by any means but I have looked into it a bit) generally gives good methods and practices, but the theory tends to leave a lot to be desired. Western stuff has great theory, but tends to produce people who are too stuck in their own heads and don't actually do the work. They both have merits. This is why the Alchemists are so great, because they managed to push theory further than anyone else, while retaining actual practices. They realized that the natural world is a metaphor for the divine.Keep in mind, symbolism is infinitely deep, because the physical universe itself is a metaphor for archetype, not the other way around. If you are not guarded and well trained, this exploration will drive you insane very easily. This is why you don't just read a passage of a book and ascend. Your body will not let you contemplate the right things until you're ready to, out of a sense of self-preservation. This is why divinity of the body is important. You are building a vessel that can contain the infinity of the universe, so don't skimp out if you want true enlightenment. It's a lot easier to read a bunch of stuff that makes you feel cool and enlightened and then brag about it, than it is to turn yourself into a vehicle that can contain the divine.This whole conversation reminds me of something I was told a few weeks ago in a vision of sorts. Might help in some way so I'll just post it."Thy Self remains invisible to make thou believe that thy thoughts are thy own, to protect thy ego from devouring itself alive.The Tzimtzum (body, soul, vehicle for consciousness) must pass through the refiner's forge, until it becomes the Merkabah (chariot) and the Hekhalot (throne.) Only then does Spirit descend.For thy Spirit is so great that if thou beheldst thou would surely die, Why not instead reside, for a time, in the world of Men, so as to appreciate thy apotheosis once ready, as opposed to momentary Bliss preceding Annihilation."
Magic isn't real you retards. It's a bunch of charlatans after your money and bussy. No one can summon demons. I'll live stream any demon ritual you want and not give af because that shit us fake and gay. Material is all there is.Shit, even qualia isn't really there and is mostly illusion. The sooner you realize you're a bugman the better, because bugmanism is all there is.
>>18701388This. Retards gonna reet
>>18697290>Thothian tradition in Ancient Egypt.
>>18697141Hermeticism is dead. Crypto-Buddhists puppet it's corpse. If you want to learn about Hermeticism don't read anything post-19th century.
>>18697141It's relevant to my feelingsAnd also making super big shit coin gambling money with facts logic and magic
>>18701956If not then how bunni come outta hatMagic is when your mom enjoys me last nightNot spookey CrowleyBut Pythagoras flexing this 3/4/5"er Hehe statues have small peeepee
>>18700818Not in the slightest.
>>18699484Look up the face of the author.
>>18701404This is a fair concern. When I got into it initially I did out of desperation. My family has a background in this stuff but I was never formally trained or initiated or anything, it's been pretty much DIY since day one. The reason I'm not worried is because, as corny as it sounds, I have faith that it'll be fine. Can I identify a spirit's intention? Not fully, but there are tells like how they behave and how their energy feels. You can feel hostility and love/respect. They are very distinct energies. Of course, what a god or demon or other spirit truly has planned is a mystery, but I haven't gotten fucked up or over yet, aside by the occasional trickster whose sole purpose seems to be to annoy you. Respect begets respect, and protection is vital.>practical knowledgeI'm not trying to convert you towards anything, but the way I see it it's a kind of business transaction. There are plenty of spirits that can help with, say, literature or music or astronomy or charisma or whatever else knowledge you require. This can come in the form of being guided to a certain book or person at an opportune time, direct instruction in dreams or visions, or just straight up a "knowing" that just pops into your head.>transcendenceMe too, but I figure there has to be an important reason for material existence as well, and if I can live better physically than I do now, then why shouldn't I strive for that as well.>malevolenceNo doubt. You can fuck yourself up if you're not careful. Which is why protection, cleansing, verifying personal gnosis is so important. It's not easy, but it can be done, and if you're "meant" for it you will do it despite all risks. I hope that clears some things up.
>>18697180nigger tier retard christcucks trying to spread their retardation as always
>>18704787Physiognomy is legit.
>>18701956>Material is all there is.Hahahahahahaha
>>18704797What facial features do you look out for?
>>18698388I would argue that Hyperborea came before Atlantis but I can't disagree with those digits
>>18705282>>18705286Blavatsky has neither of those and she's a hack
>>18705306>sheWell there's another thing to watch out for
>>18705306she has a troll face. also,>is a woman
>>18697141As others have said, absolutely. It is one of the more lamentably forgotten religious streams of thought, any 4/5 attempts to revive it have failed miserably.. Start with the Hermetica, I personally prefer the Scott translation, with the understanding that the initial text, the Corpus Hermeticum, was very likely written by an actual Hermes Trismestigus somewhere between 100-300 AD, and the Asclepius/Emerald Tablet are still worthwhile sources, but came later. The Nag Hammadi library and general New Testament are also relevant for building a basic understanding, but despite the inclusion of the Nag Hammadi it is almost polar opposite to Gnosticism in thought.The basic idea of Hermeticism is that God, the Father of All, creates the world within a void, and then forms it while also creating Man to help with develop the sphere of Nature while giving Man primacy of the Seven Archons (Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Mercury, The Moon, and the Sun) because he is made in God's image.it is this reflection that drives Nature, and Man seeing his reflection in nature, to seducing Man. This is synonymous with the Fall of Adam and Eve, as Nature herself is a work not yet complete.In falling, Man manifests and lives as mortal creature while still being tied to God by the divine spark inherent to him as a child of God, and in turn has the goal of returning to God by way of not just enlightenment, but also in aiming to complete the unfinished, now fallen, state of Nature. Because Nature is incomplete, and rebelled in seducing Man, there is such things as suffering, materialism, all of the things the Gnostics associate with the Demiurge. Hermes receives all of this from the spirit Poemandres, the Shepherd of Men.There is also some other information about the Logos (in some translations, the Word outright,) being sent into the flesh from God to guide and bring salvation to man.The major difference between Gnosticism and Hermeticism is that, in Hermeticism, the world is not to be spurned outright; it too is a work of God, just one unfinished and faulty by virtue of it's incomplete nature. Man must live, work, and grow in the world; that is why Hermeticism is outright pronatalistic (there are passages of Hermes explaining that the man who dies childless has suffered an incredibly lamentable fate, that having and raising children is among the most pious of acts, and the extensive symbolism behind alchemy that requires the alchemist to become married at some point), and that a man attempting enlightenment must not shut the world out entirely.It is stated that neglecting talents and gifts given by the Lord is a grave sin (I point also to the Parable of the Talents), things like that. Studying everything and putting the meaning behind it all is pretty much the ticket to entry.It is not for everyone, probably mostly everyone, but you'll only know if you are among those who cannot turn away from it by trying1/?
The only people off the top of my head worth reading directly on the subject after the 16th century or so are Mary Anne Atwood, Valentin Tomberg/The Martinists (thought most, if not all modern Martinist orders are charlatans), Swedenborg, and a handful of scholarly reference documents like the Mytho-Hermetic DictionaryEvola is OK at best, and committed the least egregious act of trying to dress his Tradionalism in Hermetic clothing. Every order like the OTO, Golden Dawn, and anything Crowley has touched are barely worth looking into. They are a corruption of the original Hermetic source and bear little in common. One could say there has even been a split in how the Hermetic tradition has survived so far; one of it's more glitzy aesthetic traits and some of the theory being picked up by relatively recent occultists, and one which has only somewhat sprouted as a hybridized offshoot of Christianity, specifically Catholacism.The Kybalion, Bardon's work, they're both misleading at best and actively counterproductive at worst, and that is speaking from experience. The Kybalion is new age garbage that has boiled down the slightest, most sheer aspects of Hermeticism and attempted to go in a totally different direction. Bardon peddled the religious equivalent of snake oil with the basics he knew, and if he succeeded would have committed the sin of making the information too easily readable.That's one of the biggest points: this kind've stuff isn't supposed to be easy to figure out, it isn't supposed to be neatly laid out and correlated with minimum explanation and theory. Personally, if it's not a historical piece, I would be suspicious of any book purporting to be relevant to Hermeticism that's under 300 pages.As for verifiably good sources, works from Ficino, Boehme, Albertus Magnus, Origen, the British and German alchemists, the aforementioned Tomberg and Atwood (Meditations on the Tarot is an incredible book, I highly recommend it. A Suggestive Inquiry of the Hermetic Mystery is like a written challenge if using your studied knowledge to decipher several hundred pages of information), and other sources like the Picatrix, which is a very explanation heavy treatise on not-gay Astrology2/?
For starting information, Hermes Trismestigus was called the Thrice-Great for he had mastered the three Esoteric Sciences: Alchemy, Astrology, and Thaumaturgy.These three studies form the tripod of Hermetic research, and weave into each other. A very basic metaphor would be that Thaumaturgy is both an extreme set of theory as well as practices that build executable 'blueprints'. Astrology is one big reference dictionary that has had it's symbolism encoded into the seven planets and Zodiac, and is a sighting tool for what you draw from Thaumaturgy. Alchemy is the physical operation, as in the material, worldly kind, of what you derive from Thaumaturgy and have sufficiently translated through Astrology. In turn, Alchemy allows for further working of Thaumaturgy and further meaning to be derived from Astrology. All three interlock and support one another in study and practice.Be suspicious of, if not outright avoidant, of anything which quotes the Kybalion.Don't stand out in a field doing wizard shit until you're studied for some several years, and preferably have a Hermetic Homie or two, as man was not meant to pursue this work alone.Be suspicious of any occultist which is fat, this rule has never, ever led me astray. That means you too, get running. A head of gold cannot be supported in feet of clay, and that includes trying to achieve esoteric knowledge while being a fatass or skelly.As time goes on and you become more knowledgeable, you'll start to see an emergent chain of information which verifies itself from the knowledge of what came before it, and you can use this to spot the authenticity of a work by consistencies or inconsistencies therein.For example, if something combines Saturn and Satan, it's obviously wrong. Satan, the fallen angel, is a kind've celestial prosecution lawyer who attempts to tempt man to spite God, Saturn is the planetary body which governs, to be brief, negativity, toil, time, death, and things decaying, and isn't evil so much as an operative machine fulfilling a purpose. Same goes for confusion the Fallen Spirit of Nature with either of the above; Satan seeks to lead Man astray from the light of God, the Fallen Spirit seeks to make Man forget he has a soul in the first place.The alchemical color staging is Black, White, Yellow, Red (Nigredo, Albedo, Citrinitas, and Rubedo)The major focus of Astrology is the planets, not the ZodiacGood luck, friends, I'm gonna go to bed now
>>18705367What do you think of Jung's alchemy?
>>18705400Jung isn't 1/1, but he's better than anything done in a long while. Don't expect him to be a perfect conversion, and he's kind've doing his own thing, but is overall solid and a good supplement.
>>18705367>Bardon peddled the religious equivalent of snake oil with the basics he knewIsn't his book literally meant as a self-initiation, and not a rigorous exposition on hermeticism itself?
>>18705648I wouldn't be so harsh if he didn't couple his system of self-initiation to Hermeticism as an idea. By lacking exposition, the thing you are supposed to have a built up understanding of before trying to become 'initiated', his book misses the entire point
>>18705654>if he didn't couple his system of self-initiation to HermeticismDoes he give blatantly inaccurate information?Do the practices listed in his book lead to harm if they are not supplemented with a theoretical foundation?
>>18705391How long did it take you to become this knowledgeable on symbolism? I've read quite a bit of texts from various traditions but my knowledge still feels incredibly shallow, and my practice is a mishmash of various things that seem to work for me so far, but is not rigorous in the slightest
>>18705282>>18705286fish lips and general goblin head shape
>>18705367>Meditations on the TarotI bought this in English, received it, then learned that it was originally written in French which is my native language, is the English translation as good or should I return it?
>>18705391first time I've seen someone shit on the Kybalion.I have a feeling this guy was the Napoleon Hill of /x/
>>18705738/lit/ shits on the Kybalion all the time
>>18697141No —as a Demiourgistic doctrine, it is, by universal definition, irrelevant; biology, by itself, is confined to, and recycled within, nature, which is the domain of the Demiourgos; bios is relevated, and revolutionized, to theos only through Jesus Christ.
>>18705665Not the same anon, but from personal experience Bardon has little to no information on protecting yourself from the metaphysical and psychological forces you're interacting with, while his system of initiation is quite potent, which more or less guarantees that you will come in contact with powers you cannot control and which will fuck you up to some degree. The theory he presents, while technically being correct, is also so sparse, that it will not help you to properly understand and integrate these experiences. Theoretically you are supposed to go through his exercises very slowly and only start the next step when you have mastered the current one, which would mitigate or even negate these problems, but since self-initiation means you have no teacher who can tell you when you have reached the required level of mastery, you will overestimate your abilities and fly too close to the sun.Bardon’s “Der Weg des wahren Adepten” was the first occult system I used and it was quite a wild ride. I had far more intense spiritual experiences and frequent moments of gnosis than with any other system I have used since, but I also had far more mental and physical breakdowns during this practice. So kind of a mixed bag. Not really a good place to start, but certainly a good addition to an already well grounded practice. A solid practical addendum if you will.I also agree with >>18705665 that his system has very little to do with the actual historical tradition of Hermeticism, it’s closer to the general currents of european occultism and esotericism of the early 20th century and to a lesser degree the late 19th century.
>>18705979What would you recommend instead to someone who can't currently find a teacher/guru
>>18699329If you're going to include divination in your stories, the Ten of Swords is the card that means "you're fucked, everything is about to go wrong." Death doesn't mean literal death, but major change of any sort in a person's life.
>>18705969Hermeticism =/= Gnosticism
>>18705391you seem pretty knowledgeable, so i will ask, why are there so many fags, trannies, spiritually feminine men in occultism? It seems like an endeavor for degenerates which makes me skeptical
>>18706176Yes, Hermeticism is an agnostic, Demiourgistic doctrine —do you have a "point"?
>>18706262First of all, you need to understand the distinction between New Age bullshit and what interpretation is hermeneutically correct. New Age occultism is an outlet for degenerates to express themselves as failures via some Discordian worship. You can also see this in alternative philosophy like Bataille or Foucalt. You know someone is legit if they aren't monolingual
>>18697223Every single instinct I have despises these ideas and I have no idea why
Can a non Christian schizo explain it
>>18706289Fucking define 'demiourgistic' you giga nigger
>>18706300You might be a hylic
>>18706305Read my first post in this thread, and infer your answer from its implications.
>>18706374get a vasectomy then
>>18706301Ancient Pagan mystery religions (mainly from Greece/Egypt) which were increasingly synthesized with the shifting philosophical and religious milieu of the Eastern Mediterranean (Platonism, Pythagoreanism, Judaism, Early Christianity). Eventually it splintered into the Arabic world where a new wave of Hermetic/Aristotelian/Neo-Platonic syntheses would be enacted within a harder Semitic framework, eventually this is passed on into Northern Europe during the Renaissance through the fall of Byzantium and the Re-Conquista where it would mainly settle in the Rhineland. The Rhineland was a hotbed of esoteric intellectual activity because of the lack of a rigorous institutional system of education (most of the European Schools were in France and Italy) and thus finding itself outside of the sphere of Scholastic hegemony mysticism and esoteric doctrines came to prevail there. The Rhineland I believe was mainly introduced to Hermetic and Kabbalist doctrines by way of Iberia whereas in Italy the reception of the Corpus Hermeticum and Plato from the Greek East led to Latin translations and the formation of the Florentine schools headed by Ficino and Mirandola. Figures like Bruno and Agrippa (more traditionally "occult") are from this branch whereas guys like Boehme or Reuchlin come from the Rhenish branch (and are more oriented towards a Judeo-Christian Kabbalah as opposed to the blatant paganism of Bruno and Agrippa). After the Enlightenment Hermeticism had one major revival in Germany through the Romanticists and German Idealists (Hegel, Schelling, Goethe, Novalis, etc...) and since then not too much has come of it.
>>18706063The first thing I would seriously recommend is participating in the rituals of an exoteric religion, whose style of worship corresponds best with the occult tradition you are interested in and with whom you have a meaningful relationship. I for example was raised catholic and while I am no longer a member of the state church in my country, I still go to mass and I am an active member of a local church. The symbolism and ritual of the Catholic Church complement my hermetic practice and ground this practice in the tradition and history of a legitimate, recognized religion. Participating in exoteric religion gives you something to fall back on when your esoteric practices are not going well, are stalling or are becoming too intense. It also gives you a community and support network, which is generally good to prevent mental and physical degradation, and prevents you from losing yourself in narcissistic delusions, a very real danger when doing anything involving the occult. If you have no support network, keep away from all of this and get a few friends first. I cannot stress this enough! You will drive yourself mad, if you do all of this in isolation.The second thing is to start with one of the generally well accepted courses of self-initiation. I have had good experiences with systems based upon the Golden Dawn and can especially recommend “Learning Ritual Magic” by John Michael Greer, et al., and “The Middle Pillar” by Israel Regardie. These might not be the most authentic or potent traditions and the Golden Dawn really likes pseudo-egyptian kitsch, but it is a solid point to start, which emphasizes the importance of regular meditation, spiritual protection and theory as the foundation of praxis. I personally find that the silliness and inauthenticity also works to prevent the above mentioned narcissistic delusions.The third thing is to read authentic texts, meaning historical texts, as mentioned by the anon above. The 16th century is a good cutoff point for hermetic materials, as for this particular tradition you would want to read books from late antiquity and the renaissance: The “Corpus Hermeticum” is a good primary source to start with. I have and can recommend the version edited by Copenhaver, published by Cambridge University Press. Frances A. Yates “Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition” is a good secondary source for renaissance hermeticism, a bit old, but I think still a classic. “The Cambridge Handbook of Western Mysticism and Esotericism” by Glen Alexander Magee et al. is another good secondary source, a solid introduction to the field of western esotericism as a whole with a lot of good literature recommendation.Or ignore all this, start with Bardon and just see what happens. Praxis leads to theory, not vice versa.
>>18706439thanks, great response
Has anyone read pic rel? It looks like it has good information but I don't want to fuck myself up and end up psychotic as >>18705979 says
>>18706063Oh, and don't get a teacher when it comes to occult stuff. I have never met one that wasn't a crook or a schizo. There are no true, unbroken lines of transmission, just individuals who read and experimented. The best you can get is someone who has more experience from the same starting point as you. If you are lucky you might find a mentor, but neither teachers nor gurus exist for the western tradition in a meaningfull, institutionalised sense.
>>18706300Fascinating. Don't listen to the other anons calling you a hylic. Your hatred for these ideas can be a jumping off point for self-discovery and mastery
>>18706461>You will drive yourself mad, if you do all of this in isolation.I'm a NEET hermit and normal people already consider me unhinged. Though if I fuck myself up I'll be able to rely on my family so I'm not completely isolated.>well accepted courses of self-initiationWere the traditionalists the only ones to be autistically opposed to self-initiation?Are there systems other than the Golden Dawn that are open to this, or is everything else gatekept by guruism?What do you think of people who pick and choose and build their own personal practice from a patchwork of different methods?>read authentic textsI am but man the sheer number of them is fucking insane. I'm not even done with Plato yet, then there's the entire hermetic corpus, all the cryptic alchemical texts that'll take years to decipher and fully understand like the picatrix, then Ficino, Bruno, Mirandola etc, and then the whole Boehme and Hegel thing, then Jung's interpretations... I was planning on starting with Tomberg's book for an overview but what you said sounds good too.Just hermeticism alone is enormous though. And that's not even getting into Kabbalah and Gnosticism, let alone eastern stuff. I feel overwhelmed just thinking about it.>>18706530>neither teachers nor gurus exist for the western traditionThen, would you say that every individual path is idiosyncratic?Do you think looking into eastern traditions for structured guidance is useful or will just waste time?
>>18706556>Were the traditionalists the only ones to be autistically opposed to self-initiation?Evola wasn't, and infact he thought self-initiation was the only means left available go Western man in the Kali Yuga.
>>18706556A few quick answers as I'm finishing for the night >Were the traditionalists the only ones to be autistically opposed to self-initiation?>Are there systems other than the Golden Dawn that are open to this, or is everything else gatekept by The Golden Dawn was not open to self-initiation, no lodge was. Self-initiation is a modern concept, partially created by the collapse of the old lodges. It's also nearly impossible to self-initiate using the original Golden Dawn rituals, as they are far too complicated and require multiple participants. But the semiotic system can be used and is pretty practical. And I really don't think the opinion of the original Golden Dawn concerning self-initiation matters, given that the founders made almost all their rituals up. The internal logic of the symbols and their correspondence to higher and lower reality matters, not neccesary where the symbols came from.I have no specific opinion concerning the traditionalists, as I am not very familiar with them. I only read "Revolt against the modern world" and found it very silly and pessimistic. >What do you think of people who pick and choose and build their own personal practice from a patchwork of different methods?>Then, would you say that every individual path is idiosyncratic?I think it's important to start with a coherent symbolic system, which necessarily means copying someone more experienced than oneself. This is also is why I emphasize the importance of exoteric religion, because here unbroken lines of tradition exist that go back hundreds or thousands of years, a wellspring of spiritual knowledge and experience. But in the long run every spiritual practice, be it esoteric or exoteric requires its practitioner to move beyond the received system and expand and develop his own. As such I thing each path, at the end of the day, is idiosyncratic, but not relativistic. >Do you think looking into eastern traditions for structured guidance is useful or will just waste time? Eastern practices can be a good addition, if you can connect with their underlying framework. They never worked for me, as the metaphysics which their symbols express are incompatible with my own. But even so they did not work for me, I do not consider them a waste of time. More knowledge and experience is never a waste and it is just as important to know what doesn't work for you, as it is to know what does.
>>18706852>the metaphysics which their symbols express are incompatible with my own.Do you need everything to be compatible? I wouldn't expect a single extant tradition to fully encompass the particularity of the specific beliefs of a given individual but it's more of a rough framework if nothing else
>>18703856Read St. Augustine, every subsection about demons in City of God. There is a glossary in the back.
>>18707185Why should the Christian concept of demons hold precedence over other conceptions?
>>18707096I generally agree, but there are limits to this when it comes to praxis. You can intellectually engage with any given tradition, but emotionally and spiritually there will always be certain systems with which you can connect better than others, and systems which are so alien to you, that you can not connect with them at all. This is of course not fixed for all time, but based upon your personal state of mind and the state of your spiritual development.
>>18707196I suppose so but you can still use their practices in some cases. What were the things in eastern religion that felt emotionally alien to you?
>>18707195Insofar as you believe in a "One," an absolute, a Prime mover, a source of all, the Christian/Augustinian classification of a demons is the simple categorization of every incorporeal, rational, intellectual Will that exists beneath that very Creator. It's not special or even degrading, it's an umbrella that does nothing to speak of types or qualities, of which there are many, perhaps some even "good", but not blessed; yet even the blessed are not to be sought after for the purposes of intercession or wish-fulfillment. In this way Augustine places demons and angels on a similar footing. Therefore, if you would not think of angels (or lesser gods or saints or immortals) as a dirty word, you shouldn't think of demons, merely according to its Christian window-dressing, as a dirty word.
>>18707321>even the blessed are not to be sought after for the purposes of intercession or wish-fulfillment.Why? What about help in spiritual development?I know entities that exist on superior (or inferior) planes of existence are real and can interact with us, I believe their guidance can be useful but that under no circumstances they should be entirely trusted, relied on, and that no contract should ever be made with any entity of any kind.
>>18707213Calling it alien was maybe a bit hard on my part, but I'm mostly thinking of buddhisms anti-essentialism. My personal believes are mostly shaped by christian neoplatonism in particular and abrahamic mysticism in general, which means a religion that denies not only the phenomenological reality, but also any essential reality, only accepting the depended reality of dharma, does not work for me as a spiritual system and practices that emphasize these beliefs run counter to the rest of my experiences, knowledge and beliefs, which means that I can not integrate them in an adequate way, either subsuming them into my established worldview or forgetting them over time. On a simpler level I am also not very interested in these religions right now, which means I am unwilling to put the work in, that would be neccesary to make them work and the last time I seriously studied eastern texts was a few years ago. But this applies very much to me specifically, if you have more interest in the subject you obviously can get a lot more out of it than I did.
>>18697141when i found my husband he used to be into stuff like this - I am still into stuff like thisbut now he just drinks beer and watches netflix and I sit with my books not knowing how he changed so quickly and how he doesn't detest himself being so much of a normieplease, men, don't ever stop reading
>>18707432>anti-essentialismThis is exactly the problem I have with it too. I still struggle to figure out what is the right view between emptiness and platonism or realism in a broader sense. I cannot bring myself to believe in anatta's full negation of individual existence, but I am also not fully convinced of the inherent reality of the world that surrounds us. Were you always intuitively drawn to the neoplatonist view or did it happen over time? If it's the latter, what shaped your opinions and helped you decide?
>>18707468Is this the same as Michael Talbot's Holographic Universe? Book's sitting on my shelf, haven't read it yet.
>>18707475Well it is all the same thing mate. Hermeticism is the science behind the holographic universe. The rules of the matrix so to speak. That article is much shorter and easier to process and follow than most books you have to read 300 pages worth. Not that books arent great but it helps most people to read a condensed form written for the laymen before moving on to more complex material. It also incorporates a lot more than would generally be covered in a single book specializing in one aspect of what all is included there.
>>18707496So far this article looks extremely similar to the CIA gateway/project stargate documents too, you should read the report if you haven't.
>>18706485I find it hard to believe nobody knows about this book, maybe I'll make a thread later
>>18697223>the All is mind; the universe is mentalsure>as above, so below; as within, so withoutagree>everything moves, everything vibrates, nothing restsokay but sounds a bit gay>everything oscillates; the measure of the swing to the left is the measure of the swing to the rightgay>rhythm is in everythinggay>every effect has its cause, every cause its effectsounds trite but okay>gendergay
>>18707468Many things in this essay are just false. El isn't the Hebrew name for Saturn. The double slit experiment doesn't prove particles are conscious.
>>18707459The guy with the essay wasn't me. >Were you always intuitively drawn to the neoplatonist view or did it happen over time? If it's the latter, what shaped your opinions and helped you decide?I used to be a nihilistic materialst in my teenage years, the whole anti-religious-know-it-all-skeptic deal, but even then I experienced the world and the self as irreal and false. In my early twenties I had a religious awakening, which really confused me and lead me to catholicism, which lead me to the platonic and neoplatonic streams within christianity, from that through some twists and turns first to Bardon, then to various occult and mystical traditions, as well as classical and renaissance philosophy. I used to have a lot of doubts and questions concerning the reality or unreality of the self and of being itself, but currently I have reached a (potentially temporary) state of ontological security, with positions that mostly align with a moderate form of christian neoplatonism with hermetic tendencies. But I was always "intuitively drawn" to this worldview, there was no real develoment over time, more a discovery that came with the process of learning about these belief systems. Like learning a lan guage that describes what I already experienced.This is my last post for tonight. I hope some of this was a little bit helpfull and wish you the best on your search.
>>18700112Marseilles gang rise up
>>18700064He also ran a death cult. The rabbit hole goes very deep with little Carlos.https://www.salon.com/2007/04/12/castaneda/
>>18705733I cannot speak of the French version, but the English version is incredible. You may get more out of it, being natively French for a French version, however. As a rule it's always better to read something in it's original language if you can>>18705695Three years and counting of on and off study. I will admit I have a penchant for working with symbolism in the background as an amateur artist, but with enough time you start to pick up on everything as a kind've second language. Alchemy and Mysticism by Roob is a great example, and a very neat artbook, of how deep the symbolism behind everything can go. I primarily keep to the Hermetic Christian tradition and practice, consistency is king.>>18706262They are taking up a bastardized, farflung, and mutated form of something which was originally virtuous, and would have reviled them. They see it as an alternative to traditional religion.As >>18706295 said, they're all in for the New Age Bullshit>>18706461What are your thoughts on Meditations of the Tarot as both a practicing Catholic and Hermeticist? Given my home in the American South I am generally confined to Protestantism
>>18708221He's pretty much the only person I am aware of (excluding Padmasambhava, arguably) who has exposed the archonic light trap that /x/ schizos, neognostics and remote viewers are only starting to discover right now. Castaneda was a mysterious figure.
>>18707518I have heard of it many years ago and started to read it but forget all about it over time. I will have to give it another go, ty mate
>>18707979>t. plebGo LARP somewhere else, you are out of your depth here
David Myatt's Tractates on the Corpus Hermeticum are very insightful.
>>18708617Not an argument you fucking pseud, read a book instead of this surface level shallow new age shit
>>18706295>>18706287do you consider the golden dawn, oto, thelema, etc as new age? crowley is a homosexual and even someone who is getting recommended in this thread like John Michael Greer gives off terribly effeminate and subversive vibes.
>>18708280>They are taking up a bastardized, farflung, and mutated form of something which was originally virtuousdon't you think a lot of this stuff like lurianic kabbalism has its roots in gnosticism which is pretty much the ultimate degeneracy?
>>18709273You don't know what you're talking about.
>>18709257New age isn't bad just because it's new age.
>>18709279which part?>lurianic kabbalism has its roots in gnosticismIsaac Bashevis Singer attributes gnostic origins to the kabbalah and gershom scholem himself draws "numerous and substantial parallels with Gnosticism" to lurianism> gnosticism is pretty much the ultimate degeneracythis is pretty evident
>>18709352>this is pretty evidentIf you're a retard/tradcath
>>18709405"if god is real why do bad things happen?""bro.... what if god is EVIL!!!!!"lol
>>18709448Gnostics don't think Yahweh is evil,
>>18709448Thanks for confirming you know nothing about this subject lol
This thread was moved to >>>/his/11603671