>It is unethical to put people in a situation where the only escape is suicide and all of the pain, fear, guilt of leaving others behind, and more that comes with it. Not to mention the pain that precedes it that pushes people to this point in the first place. Also, many people are miserable but don’t commit suicide because they are afraid they will survive, fear the pain, don’t want to hurt others, social stigma, the survival instinct, etc. They never should have been put into this situation in the first place.>Additionally, the idea that no more new people should be brought into existence does not necessarily imply by itself that people who have already been forced to exist should stop existing. A person who is currently alive may be happy with their life and want to continue living. However, it is still unethical to create someone else who might not feel the same way. Since there is no way to know how they will feel and no way to receive consent to take the risk, it is not morally justified to reproduce.>Furthermore, people who are born may suffer but still be concerned about how their friends or family will react to a suicide. So even if they are miserable, they will not commit suicide and continue suffering for the sake of others. This does not mean they enjoy life or think it is worth the pain; they simply do not want to hurt others by committing suicide.
Pain, fear, guilt of leaving others behind, all of that wanes in time
>>18696115Are these just assertions, or does he actually present an argument for them? He seems to just be presupposing that suffering is bad.
>>18696140well, it is. if it isn't then subject yourself to suffering
>>18696115>It is unethicalstart with the greeks
>suffering isn't badthen cut your own arms off and become homelessif you sincerely believe this
>>18696115Thread theme: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gd9OhYroLN0
>>18696164>yeah, my parents are divorced, and they're NOT getting back together: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trinU3VD1Zo
>>18696162Lit can't deal with that, just cope.
>>18696155>then subject yourself to sufferingSuffering not being bad doesn't imply that it's good.
>>18696115>It is unethicalboo hoo what a bitchinto the trash it goes
>suffering isn't bad I think I just debunked him.
>It's unethical to do anything that may result in someone else feeling bad at some point.
>>18696162Watch me not do that. Watch me sincerely believe it then not do that anyway. Do something about it. Little boy. Little baby bitch boy. Gonna cry? Gonna cry little bitch boy? Yeah you are.
>>18696265>create life because you feel like it>lol cheer up buddy>stop being selfish!
>>18696248Go stab your balls and come back. I want to see your view on suffering after.
>>18696162What? You're an idiot
>>18696265It's unethical to do things to other people who are unable to consent to your actions purely for your own benefit. It's impossible to defend conception and not rape without employing woman logic.
>>18696162>if you don't personally want to do something that means it's badis this the level we are on now? anon if everything just comes down to what you personally feel about something then what is left to talk about? you do your thing and i'll do mine.
>>18696115I agree with anti-natalism, but only for whites.
>>18696162How many people actually have their arms cut off and are forced to live homeless? I think you're making a mountain out of a mole hill.
by having kids you force them:to be asian, african, european, etc without their consent(they don't choose your race)to be autistic, schizophrenic etc without their consentto have a certain iq without their consent(if you are born with a 70 iq you are fucked)to be born with a certain sexuality(homosexuality, pedophilia, etc) or gender dysphoria etcto be born uglyto be born poor(if you are born poor and also have a 90 iq you are most likely not gonna be able to raise yourself out of poverty)these are why i don't have children. i don't impose these on a person. i am not narcissistic enough to think a kid would like my likeness and my genes
>>18698044it's mostly whites who subscribe to antinatalism as a philosophyi think pro-blacks would be the most opposed to antinatalism
>>18696536we judge what is bad by the reaction we have to it. we have a negative reaction to suffering therefore it's badthat's how we know suffering is bad . no one wants to suffer
>>18698099>it's mostly whites who subscribe to antinatalism as a philosophyTo be blunt, no other race is dumb enough to fall for it
>>18698110i would argue that whites and asians are only ones smart enough to fall for itblacks and hispanics and other racial groups are too dumb to fall it
>>18698113>anti-natalists are smartThe absolute state limpwrists
>>18698113If these races have become so "smart" that it is an evolutionary hindrance, perhaps they are better off dumbing down a bit. Hell, anti-natalism may be nature's way of accomplishing that.
>>18698116breeders tend to be the dumbest people on the planetthat's why i think the average iq of america will be 90 in the future
>>18698120>breedersUnlike yours truly, gigabrain extraordinaire, I presume?
>>18698127i am not smart
>>18698131So you do actually intend on furthering your lineage?
>>18698135nopewhy do people care about continuing their lineage? who cares!
>>18698139Are you one of those "I know that I know nothing" types? I'm just curious
pretending suffering isn't bad to justify breeding and to affirm is cope
>>18698139I care. My ancestors didn't claw themselves out of the mud and commit unspeakable acts of terror to gain a little comfort fo little old me, just so I would piss in their face and call them retards for trying.
>>18698156Eating is cope for feeling hungry innit
>>18698160okay alex joneshttps://youtu.be/tk4-xeAvWqs?t=325
>>18698178He's entirely right. A galactic human empire is what mankind ought to strive for, because we really are just that cool.
>>18698191>Thinking that will be human left Kek, midwits don't even follow the news ,
>>18698093Truly enlightened answer here.
>>18698108We have a negative reaction to homosexuality therefore it's bad. Hm, this is actually making sense.
>>18696155I have watched this webm at least 10 times, each time focusing only on one of the persons involved
>>18696155I subject myself to suffering everyday by abstaining from eating and sitting alone in my room for days on end.
>suffering is unarguably bad>life is suffering>but I wont end my suffering because killing myself is suffering>or causes suffering to others >but not having children will not cause suffering to those that want children>no people who suffer because they cant get children dont exist>yes I make sense are you nut suffering?
>>18696155Most people do subject themselves to suffering. Work, exercise, proper diet, socializing, horror/sad fiction, beauty (like plucking hairs), strategy/puzzle/platform games, helping the poor, education, challenges (like eating the hottest peppers), camping, sex (like BDSM), etc. You don't do any of these things?
>>18698983Midwit take right here.
>>18696115Everything would be in its place without technologyNo overpopulationKids wouldn't be insanePeople wouldn't feel suicidalEven people who went to war and suffered greatly in the past would overall enjoy life and be glad to liveWe live in the comfort of concrete prisons, none of this is natural and only a mad, psychotic individual can ever adapt
If suffering outweighs pleasure, then you shouldn't try to minimize suffering because that would take effort (suffering). There's suffering in effort. Trying to minimize suffering with effort is thus unethical. Benatar's book is unethical because it takes effort to read it.>you shouldn't read, educate yourself, challenge yourself, do anything difficult, etc. as these are also unethical because effort>you should only eat mushy food because the effort of chewing outweighs taste
>>18699137>People didn't suffer before the industrial revolution
>>18696115Most people don't commit suicide or feel the need to so it is an invalid argument for the majority of people.
>>18699197>>18699204I did not say that people did not suffer in the past, nor that everyone wants to commit suicide. But an increasing amount of people need to take mind-altering drugs to stop feeling inherently unhappy about their lives, and that percentage is increasing every year. It's obvious that the industrial lifestyle is taking a massive toll on people, something they're not wired for.Take children. Many people in the urban-industrial context want to be "childfree" because modern children are in fact fucking horrid. They are disgusting creatures who live tantrum to tantrum, they're morbidly obsessed with consumer products, they're hedonistic, undisciplined, sociopathic, psychotic, sadistic, they are incapable of patience, curiosity, sharing, following directives. They cannot be trusted at any point until they reach adolescence and even then they lack most of the qualities of an adult, which they will have to crash course through when they're like 22.Whereas children of rural families are relaxed, obedient, curious, more attentive and generally more manageable and pleasant to be around. While parent responsibility can mitigate how much of a brat they'll raise, much of the neurotic behavioral patterns of modern kids are unavoidable (lots of work pressure on parents means that you cannot have a mother raising the kids hands-on all the time, peer pressure from other kids who live this lifestyle means that pulling them out of context will get them ostracized and alienated, etc.)People in the past DID suffer but they belonged to a more natural life cycle. It was extremely rare that a healthy person without major issues would feel suicidal, just like that. Today it's becoming the norm for people who are living a tiny fraction of the discomfort and issues that were normal in the past.
>>18699328Bro it is not "normal" to be suicidal what are you on about
>>18696519>purely for your own benefitbut reproducing benefits society?Captcha: GAYSW
>>18699472Reproducing does God's will and brings you closer to saintliness.
>>18699412>According to a report released by the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS), the rate of antidepressant use in this country among teens and adults (people ages 12 and older) increased by almost 400% between 1988–1994 and 2005–2008.>Suicide rates in the United States have risen nearly 30% since 1999, and mental health conditions are one of several factors contributing to suicide. Examining state-level trends in suicide and the multiple circumstances contributing to it can inform comprehensive state suicide prevention planning.Yeah bro everything's fine
>>18696115Nothing is unethical
>>18699518Search 'social contagion'. People just attach themselves to new social fads to feel a part of something. Give someone a name for something and they'll believe they have it. People have always been miserable, it's just now they think there's a way out. Wrongly, as it turns out.
>>18699576>people take brain meds to be part of a trendI dunno man what you said is very true regarding many things and people are acting more retarded than ever, but I doubt that even the most idiotic zoomer would take brain pills just to LARP. Granted, all data is based on prescriptions since you can't track if people stick to their therapy, but I'm not going to believe that the majority of these cases involve people who don't take their meds. It's much simpler to believe that people have been feeling more inherently unhappy.
>>18698857The news are made for midwits
>>18699598>I doubt people would take pills to LARPAnon, people kill themselves so as to feel part of a 'group'. People are fucking idiots, and they'll do anything to fit in with others.
>dude...life kinda just sucks....damn...
>>18696115Benetar is a meme and only makes antinatalism look bad to anyone who is not a brainlet.I hate him so god dame much that even sarah perry has a much betetr book despite all it's flaws.
>>18699931>damn, I... don't have any argument... just sucks...
Anyone who can be convinced by antinatalist arguments should definitely be removed from the gene pool, so it all works out.
I like humanity so much I think it shouldnt exist
>>18696115Antinatalism is bunk.
>>18699968It was a good read and it did not pretend to be so dame obnoxiously sure of itself in ways Memetar does. Sure she was lacking when it comes to understanding some of the social issues, mental health , studies she used but it was a good read.have you read Julio Cabera? He wrote a good critique of benetar.I just really dislike how benetar decided to take a hard approach at his philosophy (there was an attempt) sacrificing the book being as enjoyable as lets say Perry's yet he did not argue against himself or try to actually prove his own position against critique even a laymen would make. he relied so hard on his little square graph and wrote the book around it so pitiful.I was working on text of my own that criituqed current antinatalist works whilst also exploring the folly of some to try make it a political movement and stopped but may well pick it up again after seeing benetar being posted by these nu-atheists (which is what antinatalism has become)
>>18696115Since he's obviously an atheist, how does he justify his gibberish about morals and ethics? What's his final reason to believe in them? Why even concern himself with such spooks?>>18696155>>18696162If there is no God, no Good and Evil, why would my suffering and other peoples suffering have anything to do with each other? To my ego, to my personal experience in this world, they are as different as night and day. What's it to me that someone else expresses pain to me, if it pleases me why not allow him to suffer? After I die for all I know all existence will cease and if it doesn't that's not really my problem, presuming there is no soul. My own consciousness is the only one I'll ever experience and thus the pain it feels is the only kind that can motivate action. The ego can only weigh one course of action against another by how it impacts its own wellbeing, now or in the future. If you think an act would strictly benefit you materialistically but you also expect that you'll be unable to handle the remorse which the remainder of your spook conscience will set upon you, then abstaining from that act would be a perfectly reasonable decision from a totally hedonistic point of view. No ethics involved. Everything can thus become a personal "ethical" commandmend to the atheist, but nothing can ever be universal.
>>18698108ok but ops paragraph is supposed to be the basis for a philosophy that cant be justified by someones personal feelings. and plenty of people want to suffer because they think it builds character or allows them to bear up to life, or they are just indifferent and accepting of it.
>>18696115Preemptively btfo by Spinoza and Nietzsche. “Suffering” and “pleasure” don’t even have their own ontological basis, they’re purely relative constructs made by relating different experiences to one another and deciding which one is better or worse. Suffering cannot exist without pleasure so it’s literally an affirmation that pleasure can be felt at all.
>>18700500Pretty sure pain is its own dimension on a neural level. Seems like you could have a being whose nociceptors were firing continually, resulting in constant pain and suffering from the moment it existed, without really knowing about pleasure. Though I agree that suffering can be interpreted as relative. If you've experienced some serious shit then minor pains become easier to deal with.
yeah but if that's the case then what's the point of doing anything at all? what good comes out of dwelling on this type of thought process?also what about people who don't read or care about learning? if intelligent people stop reproducing wouldn't that lead to a much stupider population in the future?
Unsurprisingly, /lit/ has the worst discussions on antinatalism on the internet, by far.Even r/antinatalism has better quality discussion than this.
>>18696140Explain how suffering is not bad.
>>18700663Because antinatalism is just a proxy war over tradfaggotry like everything else on this shitty site
>>18700701This post upsets me :(
Note the scandalous hypocrisy of the men of the world: after begrudgingly conceding that life IS nothing but suffering they try claiming that they never affirmed life itself in the first place, that their allegiance was to "potential" all along, i.e. to what life IS NOT, readily admitting that it is THEM that disregard life and take refuge in idiosyncratic "philosophizing". Utterly subhuman.
Now you listen. The vast majority of people doesn't commit suicide. Most people are okay with life. Some might even enjoy it. I've certainly done it once or twice. The chance of your kid becoming one of those normal everyday people is pretty damn high. And despite all the bad things about living that you so eloquently perused, none of that shit will stick to your kid. Life - that's a tough hand to play, you and me know that, but by God, the kid will make it - heck, even enjoy it.
>>18700719The vast majority of people here arguing against antinatalism are literal virgins who live in a dysphoric 2D world of made in Japan anime girls who are shy virgins but also whores who do the ahegao thing when they have premarital sex and go "you will become the next hokage senpai" while they climax. I can't even imagine what they think having kids is like, like the anime woman just goes DING and a 2.5D 10 year old appears, he is literate and obedient and he wants to play baseball (his father doesn't like or play baseball but it doesn't matter) btw he's homeschooled and reads the Bible (unlike his father)then they go shoot mexicans together at the border because that's what Jesus would dothen this family of 3 with no relatives or anyone else because anon hates his father and mother and the anime girl is a drawing (lol) all celebrate this hunt happily over a thanksgiving turkey, whom anon cuts skillfully with his original Japanese Katana with Matthew 10:34 inscribed on it
>>18696155I don't want to.My wants aren't objective truths.
>>18696115That's kind of why I completely forgive and don't harbor ill feelings to a friend that killed himself. Fact is some of us are born into unfavorable circumstances and it can be such a disgustingly difficult fight to put up on the regular.
Someone should find that Benatar fella and kill him.
>>18700830This. I had a sexual 'dry spell' for a long time and got caught up in ideals of wanting kids but then when I broke it last week and finally coomed I instantly remembered how terrified I am of impregnating a girl. It really is just a fantasy, having kids in the current world is an unspeakly horrible thing and you'd have to be completely delusional to noy get that
>>18696446Consider the pain of remembering the people who were dear to you and have been lost. Would you rather not remember? Would you rather not care about these people?Consider the joy a pedophile might get from subjecting a child to a traumatizing experience. Would you like to experience that joy? Would you rather not feel disgust at that?Some instances of suffering we cling to, others we turn away. As with joy. Because of what we want to be or not to be, rather than because of how it would feel.
>>18700894Antinatalists on 4chan basically just want someone else to make kids for them. And they should be happy, since Habib and Tyrone are doing exactly that :^)
>>18700907I meant anti-antinatalistswhoops! all these antis
>>18700830It's the literal opposite. Antinatalists are the ones about how disgusting 3d women are in a pathetic attempt to cope with all their failures.
>>18700915vast majority of antinatalists are urbanite, career oriented people who want to enjoy as much casual sex as possible, you are coping like crazywhy would you even seethe so much if someone doesn't want to have kids? just make more yourself if you're not autisticthen every single time someone makes an argument for circumstantial reasons to be antinatalist you faggots always, always ignore ityou're all a bunch of stupid LARPers
>>18698983retarded cope, I can tell you just started typing out of anger and hoped it would make sense by the end
>>18696519It's unethical for you to keep posting because I didn't give you my consent to make me feel bad by subjecting me to bad arguments. Are you going to stop posting forever now?
>>18700939You have made the fundamental error of thinking that the average person is any kind of an 'ist', normal people basically just follow their emotions and practical factors of convenience, and even the few who play around with these abstract concepts are just using them to justify what they already are doing for unrelated reasons. Very few people are wrapped up in the abstract bullshit that you think everyone wrestles with every time they make a decision.
>>18700939Whos seething? Only people I see seethe are the antinatalists who start screeching and telling me to kill myself when I talk about fatherly relationships or some shit. I have my whole life ahead of me and want to have at least one kid at some point. But for arguments sake you guys don't realize that it's up to the elders to shape the future of society by helping guide and mold the young properly. That's where my dumbass parents and so many others flopped, and that's completely changeable. A better future can be built.
>>18696162That's a fallacy of equivocation
>>18696115>omg pain :(Name a more rebbit ideology than this
>>18700994Literally why do you think it is changeable? Parents are always bad, it's just a matter of how. Even if I succeed in being less of a loud and sensitive baby like my boomer dad, I'm sure my lack of authority and self-importance will cause other issues.
>>18701016You have to work on patience, confidence, sense of security and whatever else. Point is to be a strong parental figure by the time you have kids. Problem is too many people either knock some bitch up resulting in having a kid far before they should, before they make enough money, before they're mature enough, and flat-out some crazier types should never have kids to begin with. I completely agree as far as that. I don't think everyone should have kids it's not for everyone and it's no doubt the biggest responsibility you could possibly undertake in life. But I do think plenty of people grow up in loving, supportive families as well. Who actually understand and help one another.
>atheist >objective moral claimsBecause of my religious faith I can never be manipulated into following these retarded DEMONIC trends like antinatalism and veganism that are being PUSHED BY THE HIGHER-UPS! You guys are so psy-opped it’s insane
>>18700977>You have made the fundamental error of thinking that the average person is any kind of an 'ist'of course I didn't mean antinatalist in the sense that they're militant, they just don't wanna have kidsthere are tons of people who think having kids is a chore and nothing elsethe LARP is further evidenced by the fact that nobody on this site ever answers to this like>You're wrong I got married and I have my 2nd kid on the waythey always reply like >>18700994>I have my whole life ahead of me and want to have at least one kid at some point.Which I just don't understand, why does everyone seethe and LARP so much all the time? it's also true that there are antinatalists who are just coping because they don't get pussy and know they'll have get married.antinatalists, anti-antinatalists, they all look like LARPers to meand as I mentioned, everyone's too caught up in the LARP to discuss the argument of people who say "I would like to have kids but the situation looks to grim to do it responsibly"
>>18696115>It is unethical to put people in a situation where the only escape is suicide and all of the pain, fear, guilt of leaving others behind, and more that comes with it.It’s also impossible, since even without suicide any human will eventually die of old age if nothing else
>>18701045Whoah some people plan out their lives with structured goals! And holy shit you're telling me everyone here isn't finished with their life yet? Must be larping!
>>18701034You're missing some really basic points here>you have never had a kid, this is all speculation>even if you had a kid, you couldn't know what was really going on with them (my parents are pretty much unaware of how much they've fucked me up deep down)>a major idea that often goes with anti-natalism and related concepts is that there is literally only suffering, "pleasure" is just a reduction in the absolute amount of suffering, it's still 100%>any intelligent analysis of the current state of the world will tell you that it'll be absurdly different by the time your kids grow up, probably for the worse but even if it's for the better, all of your values will be obsolete and you won't have any idea how to handle them
>>18701069you are pathetic
>>18701069Anon I normally wouldn't make assumptions but we're on 4chan and everyone gets unnaturally on edge about this which usually means the subject struck a nerve
>>18701083First point, fair. I don't have a kid and the experience isn't completely predictable.>my parents are pretty much unaware of how much they've fucked me up deep down)Has it ever occurred to you that you can improve upon the mistakes your parents made? The point is to surpass your father and previous generations. You see their failures and strive to become something better. >blah blah world changeThe more it changes, the more it stays the same. I don't believe you need to meticulously do everything for a growing child, most values are timeless and universal for instance. >>18701092Not an argument >>18701095It reminds me of the type of philosophy that shooters have. It reminds me of Adam Lanza who thought similarly about life.
>>18701064speak english, retard
>>18701122Are you one of these literal autists who doesn't understand what a major and irreversible shift the corona bullshit caused humanity? We will never go back to even the fake version of a 'healthy society' we had a few years ago, the current world order is doomed and life will only begin again after it falls. This would be like trying to have a kid in Rome in 452 AD, except it's also cringey.
I can't take these threads anymore. Why do you people fall for Angloid life denying philosophy? Why do you even engage with such rubbish?
>>18701150You would find any reason to live in fear
>>18701150>mfw someone says "I can't wait till we won't have to use these masks anymore and this will all be over!"
Doesn't deviation from normative activity (participation in reproduction) negatively valence nonconforming actions? By abstaining, you increase net-negative self-appraisal, inducing stress/depressive symptoms. How does Benatar reconcile this with his proposed asymmetry? I don't understand the "ethical" argument being made by his devotees in this thread - for example, by breathing you're depleting resources (global deoxygenation and consequent effects on taxa) that future stock can't consent to (even though they shouldn't exist implicitly as a precondition for the argument). Can someone explain?
>>18701165Honestly you're just a dumb coward who refuses to think about uncomfortable situations. You'll probably grow out of it in a few years but you'll be way behind.
>>18701203The only coward here is you. It's life, everyone has to think about uncomfortable situations, and deal with uncertainty. You think you're so fucking special? You're the only one who deals with anything? You need to touch grass. I see it all, I've been through life too, and at least I have the balls to keep living. You're the one going on about how the world is doomed, we're doomed, and wanting to have children is so stupid bro! Yet I'm the coward? Not only are you a coward, you're a hypocrite, and you're delusional too. By all means walk your own path but coming on here and trying to goad people with your depressing defeatism and victim mentality is sad.
>>18701130There is no situation where suicide is the only escape
>>18701243>>18701203I doubt that anyone's opinion on the future doe anything about fear. We're all living in fear, because the future will be shit. There's no objective way to deal with it, one can be bitter and prepared for the worst or one can be optimistic and try to ride that. In the end we're all just coping. there's no inherent merit in pushing through disregarding facts and there's no inherent shame in admitting that things will be shit.
>>18701178The truth is that we already basically had this situation, it was just voluntary instead of forced. Corona just made the problem impossible to ignore (unless you are a pathetic retard like that other guy here).
>>18701243it's pathetic how triggered you get over this, you'd have a better time if you just switched back to watching sitcoms on netflix to pretend you don't see how hopeless the current world order is, be sure to order some grubhub while you're at it.
>>18701260Living your life to its natural end *is* the situation we are talking about, retard.
>>18696115>It is unethicalnot my problem
Would antinatalist niggas be pro matrix if it made you never feel a bad thing again?
>>18701555The real question is when are the Wachowski brothers going to credit Sophia Stewart (POC) for her role in crafting The Matrix as a privilege allegory? She wrote The Matrix, as a black woman, they need to bend the knee.
>>18701555No, since it would be a concession to the Demiurge.
>Benatar is the son of (((Solomon))) Benatar, a global-health expert who founded the Bioethics Centre at the University of Cape Town. Not much is known about Benatar's personal life as he deliberately guards his privacy. A jew telling impressionable gentile undergrads to self-sterilize. Shocker.
>>18698093more people should think like you
Exercising the biological functions of one's human body will never be unethical. Doing so in a world that has a disproportionate degree of suffering is. Humans are complex machines that are resistant to most suffering like exposure to the elements, hunger and emotional trauma. People who bitch about it regardless, in my wholly personal and unscientific opinion, should be doxxed, put on a list online and tracked down for crowdfunded assassinations.I wish 4chan crowdfunded assassinations of prominent antinatalists. They're subhuman, rats trying to convince the lion not to breed.
you should only procreate if you're rich and/or beautiful.
>>18696162Gravity isn't bad, but that doesn't mean I'll jump off a cliff, retard.
>>18698924based, this is the way to properly watch webms
>>18701778Cool it with the anti-Semitism
>>18701786>Gravity isn't badWhy not?
>>18701848It allows for planets and atmospheres and life and webs of significance even if it's hard (but not impossible) to escape from and easy to bear when just lying down like how being born/thrown is easy to bear by just eating bread and drinking water and fun when swimming.
>>18696155Most people will object to your statement because they don’t understand philosophical arguments and they think they can proceed by denying any premise. They don’t understand that most philosophical debates wouldn’t actually proceed with someone saying “prove suffering is bad,” because it is a gateway to absurd thinking and the argument becomes bogged down in something uninteresting like base semantics. They don’t understand that it’s possible for a philosophical argument to halt because it has become to absurd or ridiculous, as is the case with proving or not proving “suffering is undesirable.”
>>18701859>It allows for planets and atmospheres and life and webs of significanceWhy would any of these require gravity?
>>18701899without gravity, no complex body could be held together
>>18701889Benatar's "suffering" isn't a sufficient enough axiom to premise the argument, notwithstanding the asymmetry, which is why it's so easily dismissed. His modified utilitarianism is something his own colleagues contested.
>>18701934How do you know this?
>>18701889What gave you the impression that these people want a good debate?
>>18696213What the fuck, I just found out he is unironically Jewish.
>>18701953How do you know that "physics" is true?
>>18701967Babby's first metaphysical questions
>>18696162The seethe that this has generated lmao. /lit/ knows that they’re larping and they hate being exposed.
It's also unethical and hypocritical for an anti natalist to not kill themselves. Be the change you want to see. Anti-natalists are total idiots. A fundamentally misguided, foolish, bitter and dare I say evil and hate-filled mind with nothing to contribute except misery, negativity and an assortment of other unpleasantries nobody wants or asked for.
>>18701993realist epistemology, but we're getting out of the scope of the question
>>18702013there is a real world outside of me and i observe it, and my observations generally correspond to it
>suffering is ok...because...because, it... it just is, ok! Truly can't get what goes inside of someone that thinks like that,
>>18702065More like it's a reality. Your problem is thats all you focus on, there is plenty of good feelings to be had as well. But I guess that's what makes you a bitch ass pessimist at the end of the day.
>>18702041This doesn't even mean anything.
>>18702097Nigger, I know that there are good things in life, the point of antinatilism is not about the living already, you Low IQ nigger gorrila, is about making a fucking bet with someone's life.
>>18702110its the most common sense position there is you moron
>>18702110Kek ofcourse it doesn't, there's some sekret 18th century Hungarian philosopher that we're all conveniently neglecting to mention who talks about how reality is actually not realFunny that you should use terms designed by real humans to argue concepts on a real forum on a real computer with your real underaged faggot fingersWhy don't you communicate to me in 10th dimension, faggot?
communicating in the 10th dimension with Tyler rn, you guys want anything?
>>18701243>You need to touch grassI've only ever started hearing this phrase recently and it makes me think of a naked autistic child caked in shit coming out of a hole in the ground and stroking some boomer's lawn
>>18702273This shit spreads from social media almost instantly. A new phrase appears overnight and everyone fucking uses it. There's that buck shit too that didn't exist last week and now it's everywhere. I wish it were just spam AIs but you see it everywhere else too, people just repeat shit now like parrots.
>>18702196Take your meds, schizo.
>>18702065>suffering is bad...because...because, it... it just is, ok!
>>18700895Okay but why wouldn't you choose to experience joy at everything if you could?
>>18700693You need it in order to grow. You need it so you can appreciate the good.
I got a vasectomy because I'm an antinatalist.I also live with my gf and have sex regularly - you nerds should try it sometime..
>>18696115>So even if they are miserable, they will not commit suicide and continue suffering for the sake of others. This does not mean they enjoy life or think it is worth the pain; they simply do not want to hurt others by committing suicideLmao me
For the vast majority of people pleasure outweighs any suffering they might endure. You're never going to convince anyone except other depressives. I don't know why you keep posting this.
>>18696140>suffering is good!if suffering is good then it’s not suffering. if you want to suffer, you’re not suffering
>>18702908>you nerds should try it sometime..Living with YOUR gf or having sex?
>>18696137>noone dares address this
>>18703287>masochism not real!
Antinatalism < Efilism <<<<<<<<<<<<<<< STROGG ism
>>18703073You're lying to yourself. You're just justifying your fear of death as a more noble emotion to avoid the realisation of what a pathetic wretch you really are.
>>18696162jfl this pissed everyone off and no one has a good response to it, good shit
>>18699328>they're hedonistic, undisciplined, sociopathic, psychotic, sadistic, they are incapable of patience, curiosity, sharing, following directives. They cannot be trusted at any point until they reach adolescenceThat's every child to ever live
>>18703073It's good thing that you show worry of hurting others. It shows you have deep compassion and still have significant attachment to existence. You should certainly pursue those things that keep you steady in our reality instead of dragging yourself down continually through the hellish rabbit hole that is anti-natalism and nihilism.
>>18696115do it for your senpai
>>18702126More to my point.
>>18702804Both claims are demonstrably false.
>>18696115>you can’t have babies because my feefees are hurt >:(Modern philosophy everyone.
>>18700830>reads the Bible (unlike his father)Kek
>>18696115It's only unethical to have children if you are poor and non European.
>>18700693Working out hurts, yet you get sex in the endBut as you are an incel you shall never grasp this
>>18705101Causality is itself absurd.
>>18701162As always, sentiment precedes argument. Benatar just put into coherent language what people blindly believe anyway.
>>18696137What's it like being dead, corpse?
>>18702000you are a dumb faggot
>>18706557I wouldn't know, but that's what I'm asking the anti-natalists
>>18702097No, there aren't. "Pleasure" is just a more digestable form of suffering.
>>18706780You're a coward
>>18702000What makes you think the performing the deed will yield the intended results?
>>18702000t. have kids and now wants everybody else to suffer the same fate
>>18706871It's really not that hard to swallow a bottle of painkillers and drink a bottle of red wine
>>18706897I mean the deed of successfully committing suicide.
>>18705173Women detest inconsistency and lack of ambition
>>18707023It is demonstrable that "too much" suffering only leads to destruction, it is NOT demonstrable that ANY amount of suffering leads to any amount of growth. It is demonstrable that one does not need ANY amount of suffering to appreciate anything good.
>>18700693How can you know any joy without any pain? To comprehend anything is to compare it with something else and realize the key differences. In a world without suffering nothing would have value or worth. No sympathy or empathy would exist and there would be no connection people would have with each other. To say it's unethical to reproduce because you're bound to bring suffering is the same as saying it's justified to reproduce so that you're offspring can experience joy as well. The amount of either is arbitrary so you can't really argue that there will be more suffering than joy. The current times we live in are not reflective of the entire lifespan of our species and this cannot be used as an example of more people suffering than not.>tldr suffering is not inherently bad because it is necessary for joy
>>18707043Do you understand what "causality itself is absurd" means?
>>18707095Which of these is more enjoyable: hugging your grandma or hugging or grandma after lighting her on fire?
>>18707069That's just not true. As my post >>18707095 states, being that our brains work on a comparison based system. Suffering is inevitable to experience any real joy. Furthermore, it has been proven that through adversity many people have appreciated the growth they went through to overcome it. Like a previous anon stated, working out and going through that adversity has brought positive results in a person's inner and outer strength. You can't just claim that "ANY amount of suffering" does not lead to growth
>>18707133Yes, I can, and I do. Since it is demonstrable that "too much" suffering only leads to destruction, the lesser kinds and degrees of suffering are likely to correlate, not cause, any and all amount of growth, which is observed despite the suffering, not because of it.
>>18707109Hugging my grandma, but let me ask you this. Why is hugging your grandma enjoyable? Say you hug her everyday and you nor your grandma will ever die so you'll always hug her for eternity would it still be enjoyable? Would it not be a chore after a few thousand years? In that scenario there's no initial suffering involved because you'll both never die and neither of you ever feel the pain of being deprived of a hug from each other, yet there is no happiness that would derive from this
>>18707166So you concede that your argument is divorced from reality?
>>18707166>>18707173Like clockwork, by the way: >>18700771
>>18707133You clearly havent suffered any serious crisis you fucking moron using pain from exercise as an example of suffering. Jesus, these are the retards we take literary inspiration from? Go back when you're older than 19
>>18707156Without that suffering there would not have been anything for the growth to initiate from. You wouldn't have gotten stronger if you just sat there and let your arms get weak. Also the fact that you're using "too much" to describe the amount of suffering bring destructive doesn't prove anything. "Too much" of anything is destructive. Too much water and you'll drown but you still need it to survive. You can't derive the idea that because too much suffering is destructive then a lesser amount is destructive as well.
>>18707173You can't disconnect life from suffering so in arguing that life would be better without it is disconnected from reality. I merely painted a false reality that would fit your apparent argument. But you failed to actually argue against that scenario or my point so your question is irrelevant
>>18707194>You can't derive the idea that because too much suffering is destructive then a lesser amount is destructive as well.I can, and this is more toward my point of radical skepticism. Indeed, why would any amount of water actually cause you to live when its excess apparently causes you to die? It is much more intellectually honest to renounce Causality entirely and turn to Occasionalism.
>>18707181Now you're just arguing about amounts of suffering. I've already mentioned that the amount is arbitrary and "serious crisis" is subjective. The original argument was whether suffering in general was useless/unethical. Stop projecting onto the argument and getting emotional about the topic so you can think clearly>Go back when you're older than 19Ya great ad hominem
>>18707207I believe the original question was one of doing away with life altogether, no?
are there really only like 90 unique posters on lit?
>>18698093Lol, this anon is admitting to be a retarded faggot and>>18698868>>18698093are lapping it up. Actually, since you are a faggot ant brain, maybe it is best that you don't reproduce. Good on ya!
>>18707225Also, I doubt anyone in this thread will understand this, but note how Causality actually destroys the very actuality of its object(s): per the water example, it could be said that things have no actual quality whatsoever and only are per a continuous all-pervading quantity, Dialectically approaching the very Gnostic arguments of the world being totally illusory.
>>18696155I subject myself to suffering by continuously getting triggered by these threads. I love it
>>18707225>It is much more intellectually honest to renounce Causality entirely and turn to OccasionalismIt's not though. In the bounds of this reality, whether an external force outside our perception is behind it pragmatically there is cause and effect. Furthermore using the word excess implies the existence of the limit of water you can consume and ergo the realistic bounds between too much water(suffering) and enough of it
>>18707261This doesn't even mean anything.
>>18707100Calling causality absurd is absurd in itself, as you, and especially you, are incapable of applying or subtracting meaning to causality (inconsistent). The sciences also tend to show there is a final cause to natural phenomena, such as the purpose of DNA to create more copies and variations of itself, the final cause of movement and heat being entropy, so the universe isn't silent on meaning (and why would it? Meaning is saying that there is truth, and the physical laws are what is true.) Secondly, people who hold that causality is absurd in the first place think they have no meaning in their lives (life is part a continuous causal chain) which is expected for an antinatalist incel. Ambition requires that life has meaning as there would be nothing to ambire towards if life didn't. Thinking that life is only about suffering is to subtract meaning from life, and this consequently makes ambition impossible.And that's why you can't have sex
>>18707232Well doing away with reproduction altogether because with life comes suffering so to bring forth life is apparently unethical
Man, this thread is good proof that you should just stab people instead of arguing with them
>>18707276This is barely grammatically coherent, the first sentence is gibberish.
>>18696446No thanks, I don't wish to do that.
>>18707367Can't find any meaning in English too, amazing
>>18707318yes man why do so few people understand this \books for this feel?
>>18696115>don’t commit suicide because they are afraid they will surviveRetards. You won't survive jumping off a bridge 200 meters above solid ground.>fear the painBad call. Jump off a bridge 200m over ground and it'll be instantaneous. >don’t want to hurt othersThat's your problem for being too considerate of others. If you genuinely believe your existence is wrong, you shouldn't keep it going.>social stigmaIn that case, the stigma is the problem, not the act of being brought into this world itself. Besides, what the fuck does stigma matter to you when you're dead? Again, you're just being retarded>the survival instinctPeople have kids due to instinct too, so if you can't expect people to kill themselves due to instinct, you can't expect people to stop having kids either.>etc.Fuck off, list the other reasons if they exist or don't mention them at all. TL;DR: ANTINATALISTS ARE AN EMBARRASSMENT TO THEMSELVES AND OTHERS
I am literally retarded to the point where I cannot function, I cannot be relied upon because I'm stupid and I always mess up. It's not due to character or some weird comorbidity, my brain is just stupid and it does stupid things. It's generalized poor brain capacity. If I had to bring my kid to kindergarten I would with absolute certainty forget it in the car and find it dead. How am I supposed to tell myself that I should keep on living? The very foundation of my person is broken, I'm a useless burden and nothing else. I cannot keep a job because no company would give me an ounce of responsibility. People trying to trust me to not forget or fuck things up have suffered the consequences of it to their embarrassment or financial costs. Why should I not kill myself?
>>18707935Nobody understands how difficult it is to live as a retard, as some low IQ subhuman who cannot function like a proper human being. There's nothing worse than this, you can still be useful without a leg or some other problem, it's impossible to be useful without a brain. And there are so many people today that in no way I can justify keeping myself alive and waste breath and food for everyone. I'm so fucking tired.
>>18696115Ultimately we have a personal responsibility for our own lives and for our own happiness. In the case you see it as an impossibility, we have—to borrow Sartre—the radical freedom to leave. I see no reason to blame one's parents—they are not responsible for your happiness, you are—for begetting you; even if your life is suffering, it is not your parents' fault nor responsibility. They gave you an opportunity; how you use it is your choice. Likewise, you have the choice to choose oblivion, and is it your responsibility to worry about the mismanagement of the 'potential handed to you', of their sadness and disappointment when you do not outlive them?I don't see how one can blame others for one's suffering, for being 'forced into this world of flesh', whilst simultaneously avoiding suicide to prevent parents and friends from feeling quilty. How can you both blame them and feel quilty for their feeling responsibility?You were given an opportunity—for better or worse—to happiness and more. If your hopes were never realised—be it for fate, circumstance or personal responsibility—can you ultimately blame anyone for being given that chance?Even if it all comes to naught, is not the possibility—as remote as it may have been—better than nothing at all?>Many people are miserable but don’t commit suicide because they are afraid they will survive, fear the pain, don’t want to hurt others, social stigma, the survival instinct, etc. They never should have been put into this situation in the first place.Ultimately it is their choice, their responsibility; they can blame none but themselves. They may be miserable, yes, but they might have not been; they might still not be. Whether they take that chance is responsibility of none but theirs alone—a child can blame his parents for his unhappiness but it is reprehensible for an adult to do so; he must choose for himself – and live for himself also: One cannot spend his whole life in the shadow of one's parents; if one feels that life itself is a mistake he must decide whether to see it through or to end it forthright; to blame someone else is outright cowardice. One must bear the responsibility of living one's life—whether he's prepared for it or not—and the responsibility for ending it also.
You whiny faggots and the author of this tripe don't know what suffering is.
>>18707953If you've had sleep apnea you can understand a fraction of it.
>>18708254This is by far the most retarded post I've read in a while.
>>18700939>vast majority of antinatalists are urbanite, career oriented people who want to enjoy as much casual sex as possibleLike Ligotti, right? Come off it, man...
>>18696115>Ignoring that it's unethical to disobey God and introduce suffering in the world by your own actions>Ignoring that it's through suffering we come to remember God, since temporary happiness distracts us from eternity, but happiness born from union with God touches eternity>ignoring that without God you have no rational basis to presuppose that suffering is even bad, it's just appeals to "muh feels"begome Orthodox, accept your suffering in the world as your personal golgotha, and draw close enough to God so that you could, like countless martyrs, be subjected to torturous suffering by butthurt atheists and feel nothing but the joy of eternity
>>18709810Kike on a stick
>>18707255How did you know i was gnostic? >ft. YWYH
>>18707255I really enjoy your mentioning of this because all reality is nothing but your perception. Everything that you objectively take for truth is blanketed by your subjective experience and perception of the physical world around you that is limited by your 5 senses
>>18707255>the attempted proof that causality destroys the actuality of its objects of this is a hypothetical "It could be said", not a conclusive proofIronic that an argument against actuality is posited on purely hypothetical grounds. Why are we supposed to believe hypothetical speculations? Granted, if you were to try to conclusively prove (and not just hypothesise) that causality destroys actuality, or that causality does not exist, you would have to commit to a performative contradiction and utilise causation in an argument.Become Orthodox, stop being gnostic sophists and accept that God has made the world, and you in it, and that it is intelligible by virtue of His Word, despite your attempts to saw off the branch you are sitting on.
>>18698160Ultra gigs based, keep struggling on based brother. Do not let the Lastmen poison your spirit
>>18696115What if by evolution or science a man is made without self. Would his argument still apply? I posit that it would not.A alien or construct without self that can still reproduce and survive, might be a evolutionary benefit, maybe even superior to those with. The sense of self and ego might be a evolutionary cul-de-sac.If a person could exist at all times in a flow state, never self conscious, never self aware, never pondering mortality or its own failures. That seems functionally superior. Considering its the idea state for all athletes who "want to get out of the way of thinking and just do" or scientists who have a "eureka" moment while taking a shower, maybe his philosophy only applies to a subset of state of consciousness. Ones that will eventually be weeded out.
>>18696115I have enjoyed my life and want to prolong it. I appreciate that my parents brought me into being, and I will strive to secure a good life for my offspring. If you are an anti-natalist, chances are your parents and community failed you, and for that you have my pity.
>>18700693Suffering is one of the major forces in human progress
>>18699472People don't have children for their benefit to society. The closest you get is people having children in the hopes that their children will become famous by benefiting society, and the parents will be able to leech status from that. Societal benefits from reproduction are a side effect, and there are many people that society would benefit more from not being born.>>18700964You made the choice to feel bad about my post; I've done nothing to you.
>>18710184I'm happy for you, and if your description of your own life applied to everyone, I think it would be hard to find an antinatalist anywhere. But let's say you're part of the 95% of people who live happy, fulfilled, long, and loving lives. How can you be certain that your children will also be part of that 95%, and not be born a psychopath or pedophile or mentally retarded or a disfigured cripple without working arms or legs, or any of the other demographics not suitable for life in modern society? But maybe it's not 95% and 5%, maybe it's more like 99 and 1. Or maybe even 99.9 and 0.1. What's a suitable risk chance to justify playing Russian roulette with your child's life? What will you do if you roll the dice and lose, and conceive a child incapable of enjoying a life worth living?
>Life is pain and suffering Well thats your opinion you fucking absolute retards. Life would be a lot better if we didn't have stupid fucks like you noncing about. Now do us a favour and kill yourself.
>>18696115An entire "argument" that basically amounts to an even dumber exploration of the subject than a Taylor Swift song.
>>18710338The only possible solution is to detect these problems during pregnancy and abort if present.
>>18709967This is even more incoherent than the meatheads' posts above. My God.
>>18710480Sure, assuming you don't believe life begins at conception. But a lot of these things can't currently be screened for, so can we agree that it's unethical to conceive children until it's possible to screen for or fix all of the genetic and developmental problems that can lead to someone being born into a life not worth living? That still doesn't address the chance of burning to death or other possible instances of suffering, but I'll grant that there's probably some point at which the continuation of the human race takes precedence over an extremely insignificant chance of the child being made to truly suffer or die.I don't think we're there yet though: there's currently no risk of humanity dying off, and there's still lot of people suffering through awful lives due to circumstances that can't be predicted in advance.
>>18710685All we've agreed to is that there is a certain degree of risk which is acceptable. For you, it must be far lower than what it currently is. For me, the current risk is acceptable.