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Back to basics edition
Previous Thread: First /wsffg/ thread

Thread rules:
>No anime
>No manga/comic books
>Only books by western authors
>No hololive
>No litrpg

>Recommended reading charts (Look here before asking for vague recs)
https://mega.nz/folder/kj5hWI6J#0cyw0-ZdvZKOJW3fPI6RfQ

>Archive
https://warosu.org/lit/?task=search2&search_subject=wsffg

>Goodreads
I can't sneed

>A link to the ultimate colossal science fiction and fantasy collection torrent.
>>>/t/1023504

>Discord
I can't sneed
>>
Threadly reminder to read Bakker. Start with The Darkness That Comes Before. The Second Apocalypse series is part of the /wsffg/ canon. Not understanding Bakker memes renders you blind to most of the relevant discussion that goes on here.

Other good recommendations are of course:
>Tolkien
>Wolfe
>Dune
>GRRM
>Lovecraft
>Conan the Cimmerian books
>Black Company
>Wheel of Time (YA)
>Sanderson (if you like YA)
>Dying Earth
>Malazan if you really like DnD
>Abercrombie
>Asimov
>H.G. Wells

Any many other recommendations exist. I might expand this pasta further.
>>
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>>18175146
Absolutely fucking excruciatingly based thread. Truth Shines.
>>
>>18175202
>Bakker
Dislike him. Writer of corncobby chronicles. To consider them masterpieces is an absurd delusion. A nonentity, means absolutely nothing to me.
>>
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>>18175265
Not everybody can be saved.
>>
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>>18175276
>Does it filter you?
>>
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MOM I GOT NEW FRIENDS. ALL I HAVE TO DO IS PRETEND THIS FANTASY BOOK IS THE BEST THING EVER
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Tfw I am reading TUC and so many sff threads have already somewhat spoiled the ending for me. I don't know how it is going to happen in detail but I have a good understanding that there will be quite many plot twists and backstabs.
>>
Post YFW the mysterious stranger sprayed his black seed on Esmenet
>>
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just updated the dungeon synth chart I made from last year's /dsd/
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>>18175348
>To enter a furnace stoked by an Old Father...!
>>
>dead thread
>filled with memes and no discussion
Dumb splinter
>>
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>>18175318
*graps your dilator*
>If I pull this off will you die?
>>
>>18175457
You're a fake guy
>>
Anyone else really started pondering existentialism when reading the Ishterebinth chapters?
I've had existential dread for a long time. Reading Nonmen suffer from not dying really changed my position on the subject.
Now I just need salvation
>>
>>18175507
I just started reading book of the new sun. What the fuck is this twin mutts problem? im on book 2 the claw,
>>
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>>18175521
I haven't read Wolfe yet. But he is on my reading list.
>>
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>>18175507
honestly one of the most stunning chapters in fantasy desu. the entire sequence is gripping, from the approach to the mountain, the encounter with the ghouls, the council of the amnesiacs, the sky-beneath-the-mountain, the depths below... absolutely fucking bakker at his most grand and tragic. nonmen are without question my favorite not-elves in any fantasy canon.
>>
>>18175725
>Not-elves
Incredibly based
>>
>>18175146
Is the physical perfection of Nonmen a result of the Inoculation? Were there fat, misshapen, ugly nonmen before Arkfall?
>>
>>18175536
Red Pringled and Envased.
>>
>>18175886
Probably. They still seemed a little more “sterile” than humans and also stronger and longer lived.
>>
>>18175413
Very based chart, my anon. What is a dsd and where do I find it? And what is dungeon synth?
>>
>>18175886
>>18175900

I wonder if the Inoculation is nanomachines...

If you can program nanomachines to identify cancer, then you can turn off cell-death and infinitely replace telomeres and essentially live forever.

Life has two choices, cell death (maximum replication limit) or cancer (infinite cell replication).

If you can solve cancer, you can have no max limit.
>>
Damn, the other thread really went to hell.

Well then, Elaida and Tar Valon are all completely autistic.
>>
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>>18175146
This thread is inherently anti-Asian Fantasy.
>>
>>18175998
How does that explain Womb-Plague?

>>18176023
There are only few bearable women in WoT and one of them is Nynaeve.
>>
>>18176038
It’s also anti african
>>
>>18176044
>How does that explain Womb-Plague?
Safeguard to prevent population explosion.
>>
>>18176078
What about Dolour?
>>
Are russian books western or eastern fantasy?
>>
>>18176144
Western. The point of wsffg is to exclude chinkshit, anime, manga etc. Russian literature has its merits
>>
>>18176144
Let’s be honest- this is strictly an anti-anime/manga/weeb thread.

Russian lit should be allowed as well as any Asian authors that write actual books (think Cixin Liu)... but that might be controversial and encourage the dreaded weeks so I won’t argue it too much.
>>
>>18176183
>>18176185
Is Cradle chinkshit or western?
>>
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>wsffg

Goddamn look at what the anime poster have done

I hope you're satisfied
>>
>>18176205
Just regular shit I guess
>>
>>18176094
the dolour seems to be just the extreme depression and dementia of having a brain designed to live 800 years in a body that has lived 10,000+ years. coupled with the nonmen's naturally giga-emotional responses to stimuli and you have the perfect storm of mental illness.

the descriptions of the far-gone erratics reduced to an animalic status like sranc deep in the bowels of ishterebinth will always haunt me. but the "halfway there" ones, the nonmen teetering on the edge of sanity despite their best efforts to hold steady, were the most tragic of all.
>>
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has a non-white person ever written any speculative fiction worth reading???
>>
>>18176298
honestly octavia butler is pretty darn good, bloodchild is one of my favorite short stories ever and lilith's brood is pretty based as well
>>
>>18175276
I don't think anybody considers the second apocalypse a masterpiece, it’s not even finished. He is however the best living fantasy author. One who isn't pozzed to fuck, doesn't want to be, and actually has something to say beyond telling a surface level fantasy story for the gormless modern audience genre fiction now has.
>>
>>18175202
add Rothfuss and Stephen King and we have a damn good list
>>
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>>18176318
>I don't think anybody considers the second apocalypse a masterpiece
>it’s not even finished
anon, i......
>>
>>18175215
this picture bothers me

every axis should read DAMNATION
>>
Here we go another thread for the Bakker shills.
>>
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>>18176341
>>18176341
>Here we go another thread for the Bakker shills.
>>
>>18175886
>>18175900
As far as I'm aware there's no reason to think nonmen were ever not supermen. No source speaks of this and they themselves don't remember it that way. They always treated humans like stupid apes because that's what humans always were compared to them, until the tutelage when some of them realized that humans, weak and pathetic as they may, are still the only chance for at least some aspects of nonmen culture to survive.
A race of genius level IQ people with flawless looks and effortless body builder bodies.

I think the reason the Inchoroi didn't kill them all with a universal womb plague is that they get off on being cruel, and they knew that the nonmen were doomed after the loss of the women. The Inchoroi were deliberately created to NOT be cold, calculating and efficient. Perhaps it also aped some universal plan with regards to the No-God's ability to destroy birth. It's said that for the No-God to work, the genocide has to be drawn out, it wouldn't do to just execute everyone, even if that was an option.
>>
>>18176339
Yeah, it's shit. you can't fit everything into a grid like that. In reality groups will cluster around certain points while whole stretches are completely empty. For example, Chorae are one of the holiest and most orderly objects, while the No-God transcends salvation-damnation by sidestepping the whole process. The chart also doesn't know whether it wants to sort people by their alignment, or by their goals.
>>
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>>18176405
>tfw realizing the fatal synergy – even romance – between the indomitable passions and madnesses that rule the hearts of both the Cunoroi and the Inchoroi

Cheers, Anon. To Life, to Love, and to this accursed World.
>>
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>>18176416
it's a meme retard, it's meant as a joke. make your own if it troubles you so much
>>
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>>18175202
Is The Darkness that Comes Before a good starting point for fantasy/medieval genre? I've never really had any experience with the genre other than Oblivion and Dark Souls
>>
>>18176436
Wheel of time is a good starting point, for Tolkienian fantasy.
>>
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>>18176436
I wouldn't call it light reading, it's certainly much darker, heavier, and stranger than say a GRRM. That said, if you like the idea of challenging, byzantine, and somewhat overwrought baroque literary "black fantasy" filled with philosophical musings and a dash of sardonic humor, it will not disappoint....
>>
Given that nonmrn lived like 400 years even before, and discovered sorcery, its safe to say that they were far smarter even back then compared to humans.

They're also said to be masters of warfare, and some of their kings and such were able to 1v1 Inchoroi, which kinda implies they were just as superhuman beforehand anyway. The Inchoroi wouldn't give them superhuman abilities if all they asked for was eternal life, especially not if they planned on betraying them.
>>
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>>18176436
>Is The Darkness that Comes Before a good starting point for fantasy/medieval genre?

It's more of an ending point.
>>
>>18176418
I don't think the two are much alike. I think the Cunuroi are supposed to be reminiscent of literary figures from our antique world. Melodramatic and stern, larger than life, and vibrant, a kind of barbarian splendor that rouses strange passions in our hearts, makes us feel as though our detachment and discipline made us less in some way.

>"There was a time," he says, "when the world shook to the stamping chorus of our march..."
>"There was such a time..."
>"A time when we," Cleric says, "when we!—were many, and when these depravities—these skinnies—were few. There was a time when your forefathers wept at the merest rumour of our displeasure, when you offered up your sons and daughters to turn aside our capricious fury!"
>"The most foolish among us," Cleric continues, "has forgotten more than your wisest will ever know. Even your Wizard is but a child stumbling in his father's boots. You are but twig-thin candles, burning fast and bright, revealing far more than your span allows you to fathom."
>"But now look at us," he booms down to their astonished shadows. "Diminished. Perpetually foundering. Lost without memories. Persecuted as false. Hunted by the very depths we warred to uncover, the very darkness we sought to illuminate."
>"One day you, who have never been mighty or great, will ask where the glory has gone. Failing strength. Failing nerve. You will find yourself faltering at every turn, and your arrogance will grow brittle, defensive.

The Inchoroi on the other hand are a designed race with narrow horizons and specific goals and no desire or capacity to go beyond their mission. Their passions are their goad. They lack any complexity, and arouse as much feeling as your average banker.


>>18176431
Cope.
>>
>>18176444
It has a large cast of extremely obnoxious characters and half of the books are mind-numbingly boring filler and side quests. It's a bad place to start.
>>
>>18176521
I don't know, anon, its pretty interesting so far. Only up to book 5 though.
>>
>>18176535
The main plot is interesting, but prepare yourself for it freezing in place for 3-4 books in a row soon.
>>
>>18176540
Ah, that's the slog I've been hearing about for awhile now. I'm dreading it.
>>
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Anyone else think of the Inchoroi as Bakker's answer to Balrogs?

I also think of the Emwama as not-Hobbits (given their relationship with the elves) and Umiaki, the tree that Kellhus was hung from, as a "not-Ent" in the way it's described.
>>
>>18176549
The way I got through it was straight up skipping through chapter PoVs I didn't give a shit about. It becomes pretty manageable if you do that, and it’s not like you're going to miss much.
>>
>>18176661
Thanks, will do.
>>
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>>18175914
every november and december on /mu/ there are two special generals; nothing but black metal november (nbbmn) and dungeon synth december (dsd)
dungeon synth is genre that "came out of" black metal in the 90s
it has a unique aesthetic, and I look forward to both threads every year
https://youtu.be/XKSu-wZChcQ
https://youtu.be/v1UEmyE5BzU
https://youtu.be/fuXDoUR4XO4
here are a few of my favorites
>>
>>18176645
I don't think any of these have things in common.
>>
>>18175146
Yo, I asked this in its own thread, but since this is more active: do you guys know of any maybe lesser-known fantasy with unique, interesting settings? Something less derivative.
>>
>>18176753
He literally refers to the emwama as haflings at one point. Use your imagination sometimes friend, it's useful for enjoying the genre.
>>
Redpill me on Sara J Maas. I read one of her books and she's been cancelled.
>>
>>18176793
her primary audience is teenage girls so take from that what you will
>>
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Massive butthurt
>>
>>18176763
Deltora Quest?
>>
>>18176832
lmao I loved those as a kid, but idk if I'd call them unique
>>
Anyone ever read the Red Inja books by Richard Tierney and David Smith. I’ve been going through them and they’re super fun. Great Sword and Sorcery.
>>
>>18176837
Yeah, I was just thinking of something off the top of my head. I do remember them being completely nightmarish for a childrens series.

Maybe for something that is more adult, the Gomenghast series? I can't answer in depth because I got bored of the first book.
>>
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>He would not make the mistake of underestimating either her or her resources again. This whore-cum-Consort.
Bakker sama, I kneel...
>>
Cross post from other thread; which can come up with better suggestions... Fight!

Need help with suggestions. I feel like I've read all the most popular series and can't find anything to hook me anymore. I just don't feel anything with that oomph that makes you keep reading

What I enjoyed: stormlight, WoT, realm of elderlings, kingkiller, books of babel, that one series with the guy who calls wolf's or something about drum beats and fire princess that gets a burned face, lightbringer, cradle, a song of fire and ice

What I dropped: riyria, king of thorns (dropped after 2nd book), first law (dropped after second book), codex alexia (after like 3rd book), Thomas covenant (halfway through book one, not sure if I want to continue), malazan (dropped after book 3, I honestly want to continue reading, but I've forgotten so much but still remember most the main events so it'll be a torture rereading it while knowing what's going to happen
>>
>>18177095
DUNE.
>>
>>18177107
Read up to book 3 I think? Then I lost interest. Wasn't really into the new sibling duo
>>
>tfw finally finished the unholy consult so I can understand all bakker shitposts
>tfw the ride is also over
Bittersweet
>>
>>18177168
Its worth it for God Emperor of Dune.
>>
>>18177095
Witcher probably, going off what you've read. I could give you more specific reqs, but what do you value most in a book?
>>
>>18177095
I finished riyria and some prequel books recently. the only trilogy had a pretty cool pay off in the end.
>>
>>18177329
Perhaps emotional impact? Character driven, growth of characters, overcoming desperate trials, maybe some romance too.

For example in Gentlemen bastards, Ravens shadow, Robin hobb, and dune all have parts where they grow up and have to survive in very harsh conditions
>>
>>18176511
>Hunted by the very depths we warred to uncover, the very darkness we sought to illuminate."

Might be a clue that they created the Dunyain, who are now in control of the Consult.
>>
>>18177344
I only gave it like 30 pages to be honest, but dropped it because it felt like the characters were trying too hard to be quirky or something, jts been a while. I think maybe one of the characters was supposed to be very badass, a hard-core killer type, but he was like 15 or something and it just felt forced.
>>
>>18177329
Are the books different than the TV show? Cause the lack of personality of the Mc was a turn off for me. I dropped it after a few episodes and skipped around.
>>
Is Western stuff really so different from Eastern? I'm reading The Witches of Karres and so far two different lolis, the both of them sisters who are also his cousins, have told Captain Pausert they'll be of marriageable age "soon."
It's also just been a fun book so far.
>>
>>18177557
>Is Western stuff really so different from Eastern?
No, but a few anons want to be extremely reductive with their definition of Science Fiction and Fantasy
>>
>>18177573
Looking through both threads and having seen the arguments. I honestly think it has less to do with eastern and western authors and more so how autistic the anime poster is. Constantly shilling anime, manga and some pretty lame light novel trash a ton too.
>>
>>18177594
Just check the other thread and anons were getting pissed that other anons were trying to discuss Xianxia and LitRpg. Pretty clear cut to me.
>>
>>18177614
I also saw people posting about hololive, light novels, sometimes poking their toes into the icy pool that is manga. You obviously will get spergs complain about legitimate eastern literature, but it seems pretty obvious that weebish autism drove off a bunch of people.
>>
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>>18177370
In that case Witcher is a good call. I'd also say to look into David Gemmell (start with Legend). I think Legend is the only book to ever make me actually tear up a little.

Since you enjoyed Sanderson/WoT I'll spitball other series: Riftwar cycle, The Belgariad, The Black Company, Demon Cycle, Dresden Files.

Now that I think about it, Dresden files seems to fit pretty well. Urban setting and first person, but it has everything you seem to be looking for - assloads of character growth, friends and relationships, the MC takes his lumps every book, lots of magic, some romance etc.

>>18177418
Yes, Geralt in the show is like a dumbed down meme version of book Geralt. He doesn't exactly shoot out quips or wisecracks, but he has a distinct grim sense of humour in the novels and does actually converse instead of just monosyllabically grunting.
>>
>>18177614
Pretty much all of what was being talked about there was actual shit though. Take revered insanity for example, it reads as though it was written by either a child or AI.

https://novelfull.com/reverend-insanity/chapter-1.html
Its actual nonsense.
>This place is already covered in inescapable nets, this time you will definitely be decapitated!
>They did not move; everyone was wary of Fang Yuan’s final attack.
>For 6 hours this tense moment went on until the evening came, the sun casting its rays upon the side of the mountain. In that moment, it was as if the place was on fire.

Sure I got a laugh from reading a few paragraphs, but otherwise I feel genuine sadness for the people who enjoy that sort of stuff. Constant shilling of crap - and an utter refusal to stfu about it - is what made this breakaway thread happen.
>>
>>18177557
you can fuck off back to the other thread you piece of shit.
Really, why aren't you happy with shitting the fucking main thread so much people make an alternative? you must come here and shit this one as well?
I just want to talk about book with out anime shit in them you have SEVEARAL whole boards for you tranny shit, go to them for fucks sake. Fuck off.
>>
>>18177741
>the witches of karres by james h. schmitz (1966)
>>
>>18177763
Not science fiction or fantast, so fuck off
>>
>>18177775
Posting vtubers so much might have destroyed your brain, retard-kun...
>>
>>18177775
nice false flag anime tranny, it's actually sci-fi and might even be classified as fantasy
>>18177763
put it in my back log I'm going to start the blade itself this weekend and after finishing the book, and maybe the series if it's good, I might give it a try.
>>
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>>18177837
.
>>
>>18177371
this is my theory too, the Dûnyain were a breeding experiment initiated by the Cunoroi. they bred the emwama after all

although Bakker's hints might alternately position the Dûn as simply an atheistic philosophical movement focused on Logos that arose in the ancient north before the Apocalypse. however, due to their proximity to the Tutelage, there had to be some kind of Nonman influence going on there.
>>
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>>18177844
..
>>
>>18177837
Even never having read any Epic Fantasy (Tolkien ripoffs) or much fantasy at all, Lord of the Rings was too boring for me. What can I read that's like it but not as dry and shallow?
>>
>>18177855
...
>>
>>18177855
meh list
>>
>>18175725
what book?
>>
>>18176549
Do you have a list of characters that can be skipped?
>>
>>18177905
the second apocalypse by r scott bakker
this is from the Great Ordeal (book 6)
>>
>>18177941
>r scott bakker
I haven't read any of his stuff. Should I start with The Prince of Nothing series?
>>
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>>18177952
It's a favorite of many here. Dark, perhaps excessively so, but quite unique, interesting and powerful. First book in the series is The Darkness That Comes Before.
>>
>>18177981
Thanks, anon. I've read many references to Bakker here, and The Darkness That Comes Before seems pretty interesting.
>>
>>18177981
does it ever redeem itself? like is it just brutally pessimistic to the very end or is there some ray of hope we can gain from reading this?
>>
>>18177994
for example in malazan, after reading felisins story arc, i lost part of my naivety that ill never get back. how can someone suffer so much... only to find out the ride never stops
>>
>>18177994
my personal criticism of bakker is his lack of that ray of light. or rather its absolute dimness. dude is negative as fuck and even a little tiny glimmer of light that wasn't tainted with irony and despair would elevate his works in a profound way.

the man needs to find the God he hopes exists.
>>
>>18177994
Not really, but the themes the author is going for become far clearer/deeper after the first book.
>>
>>18178078
>>18178028
i probably cant take it then. if its anything like where in malazan felisin goes through all that shit, then starts to build a new life for herself, just to get killed by her sister who never even became cognizant of the fact it was her and then the world just goes on. while the whole story was great, it was just, i dunno too much
>>
>>18177644
Is this from the book obsessed with joggers? It's the woman sucking him off blank?
>>
you bakkerfags made me have a dream about hijacking the No-God.

it was incredibly detailed, greatly resembling the fanart of the No-God even thoughi've never even read bakker before

what have you fucks done to me
>>
>>18178380
nor have i ever even seen any fanart of the No-God before
>>
Nice there's finally a containment thread for the autistic spergs. You faggots could also go back to your trannycords and trannydits if 4chan culture offends you so much. You shouldn't have to seethe and impotently shake your little fists at the screen every time someone posts a cartoon picture reaction at you, it's unhealthy.
>>
>>18178387
>>18178380
Its all part of the Gnosis anon. Seswatha's dreams.
>>
>>18178614
OP specifically says no to:
>anime
>trannies (no goodreads or discord)
Only the good stuff here, I’m sorry if your containment for /a/ and /co/ AKA sffg isn’t so popular
>>
>>18178614
does it trouble you?
>>
>>18175146
>>No hololive
what is it?
>>
>>18178871
https://en.hololive.tv/
>>
>>18175521
>twin mutts
err, who?
>>
>>18176766
Doesn't matter. They're nothing alike. The comparison is more like wolves to chihuahuas. Hobbits are totally different and fulfil a different role because Tolkien is totally different to Bakker. Hobbits are the idealisation of the English countryside in a race.
>>
>>18178940
Emwama are beta bugmen who have been bred to serve the alpha race.
>>
>>18175146
Based.
>>
>Days after organising a successful rebellion, stilling the Amyrilin and establishing herself as the new Amyrlinin, you get infiltrated by the mother of all Darkfriends
Do Red Ajah really?
>>
>>18178940
emwama are literally grimdark hobbits

>Tolkien is totally different to Bakker
yes but that's the fucking point, he's a deconstruction of tolkien or response or whatever the fuck you wanna say

t. Bakker himself
>>
>>18179216
aside from being small they still have no similarities. there is nothing to indicate they are taken from hobbits.
>>
>>18178877
Agia
>>
>>18175146
>no discord
>no goodreads
Extremely based.
>>
>>18175146
>Black rider on a pegasus
Wait, what?
>>
>>18179246
It's just Bakker's warped sense of humor. The entire series is a grimdark inversion of LOTR.

Emwama are the obvious hobbit analogs. Small and innocent and get turned into memory butter by their elfdwarf overlords.
>>
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Does this chart still hold up? Or is it missing something? I'm a zoomie.
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>>18179516
>Does this chart still hold up?
Tolkien hasn't gotten any less dead since it was made
>>
Tell me about bakker why should i read his books?
>>
>>18179822
Do you like Terry Brooks? How about Terry Brooks riffing on Frank Herbert? If so, you might like the writing style of R. Scott Bakker.
Dreadful white bread prose but the content is interesting.
>>
>>18176318
> R. Scott Bakker is the best living fantasy author.

Richard Kadrey
Scott Westerfeld
Scott Lynch
Aliette de Bodard

Or is this some sort of joke meme?
>>
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Project Hail Mary by Andy Weir - A Review

It's The Martian, simple as. If you liked that, you'll like this.
>>
>>18179964
>One man must save the earth from space mold
I've already read Echopraxia
>>
>>18180000
Weir doesn't have Watts' 'orrible people doing 'orrible things fixation. Plus, the "science" in Hail Mary is more accessible. Not as friendly as The Martian, where a clever lad could anticipate problems and brainstorm potential solutions. Hail Mary is still very much a sit back and watch The Pros From Dover work book, but the reader can understand how things worked afterward.

Still, keeps your attention -- unlike Artemis, and is a fast paced read.
>>
Black Company or Memory, Sorrow and Thorn?
>>
>>18179941
Yeah none of them are as good.

Also:
>Scott Lynch
fucking kek. Dude is literally Sanderson tier, in that he provides an interesting story that is puddle deep.
>>
>>18180284
When you referenced Terry Brooks as "good" I thought you were joking. Now, I'm not so sure.
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>>18178871
This retard shit.
>>18173808
>>18171240
>>
>>18180368
I've not mentioned Brooks once. All the best fantasy authors are dead, and of the 'modern' guys that replaced them Bakker is the best. His stories got nuked because the first book is hard to parse and he writes actual 'grimdark' fiction which - in today's market - is tantamount to commercial suicide.

Sure there are writers today better than him, but no fantasy ones. He has the prose, themes, and world to be second to none - among those alive -in that genre.
>>
I'm quite liking the blade itself, the description of the pain and troublesomeness that a fucked up leg gives you is kino as fuck.
>>
>>18180480
The series is good at treating Glokta as an actual cripple, and not just having his wound be a sometimes-troubling aesthetic.

Honestly despite people claiming Abercrombie is pozzed I don't really see it. He has some of the best character work currently around, imo.
>>
>>18180526
People claiming him to be pozzed are not referring to his early works, most agreed they are solid works, but if you have read the latest books you can see him veer of course.
>>
>>18180560
I suppose so, but even in his current trilogy is not particularly pozzed. I could see him giving into peer pressure with this last book given how it is set up, but so far the female characters haven't been particularly bad. Savine for example gets the shit beaten out of her and humiliated, and Leo's mother totally side-lined.

I'm more worried about the fantasy stuff he is going to be writing afterwards. Something dumb about demons iirc. I wish Joe would just stick to making Northman kino tbqhwyf.
>>
Read the first Elric Saga book today, and while it's certainly rough around the edges and merely an introduction to the series, as well as being written while Moorcock was still inexperienced and hardly prolific at his craft, the promise of what comes next and seeing Elric's destiny unfold and witnessing the climax is a very alluring one and that was the main draw for me reading further. That, and wanting to understand the impact this series had on fantasy while it was still dominated by third-rate Tolkien rip-offs. Can't wait to read more of it, Stormbringer is wild on all accounts and given the foreshadowing I expect the series to really pick up from here on out.

>>18175202
>no Moorcock
>no Ursula
WHAT
>>
Can any of you fine fellows recommend any fantasy (or horror fiction) with the tone and themes of popular folk songs and ballads like Long Lamkin, Little Sir Hugh, The Two Sisters, Long A-Growing etc?
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5c1Yb9528c
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxhKOR2U-JY
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8h-7ols1V4

About to start a novel called Tussaud, it's a gothic fantasy about wax automatons. Can't say I have the highest expectation but a recommendation is a recommendation.
>>
>>18180731
Thomas Mann's Royal Highness.
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>>18180597
But what if it turns out to be good demon stuff?
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>>18176329
>>18180709
Will add these to the list.
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>>18180744
I've only read his popular short fiction, how does it hold up?
>>
>>18180751
We don't know all that much about it, but from what he has said my hopes aren't that high. I'll check it out when it comes out most likely, but I think Wisdom of Crowds will be a good litmus test for if Joe has gone off the deep end or is still good.
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>>18180769
Very good. And you should also read his novels, it's his best stuff.
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>The study is so deep, Father...
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>>18180788
Danke, it's another one for the list.
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>>18180815
Bitte, enjoy.
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>>18175202
I'm not going to stop shilling David Gemmell until at least one of you fucks enjoys him. Start with Legend and have a wonderful time.
>>
>>18180831
Can you elaborate on his work. What are the themes and atmosphere of his work? Is his work YA?
>>
>>18180831
If this is supposed to sell me on him, it managed to do the opposite.
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>>18180731
Under the Northern Sky, maybe. Its more ancient fantasy England than gothic though.
>>
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>>18180831
>>18180852

Rothfuss seemed to like Legend.

T. >>18180837
>>
I'm not really a sf aficionado, but is /lit/ so unappreciative of the genre that the major authors of the golden age and post-golden age barely get a mention? Come on, Bradbury, Asimov, Heinlein, PKD, heck the early guys like Van Vogt...there is a lot of value there, more so than in the slender genre of fantasy.
>>
>>18180915
https://rsbakker.wordpress.com/essay-archive/the-future-of-literature-in-the-age-of-information/
>This means all the old and largely unfounded prejudices against genre fiction must be set aside. Genre only seems antithetical to ‘literature’ because the literary have turned it into a flattering foil, abandoned it, in effect, leaving a rhetorical fog of self-congratulation in their wake. In my own case, I chose epic fantasy because I knew the best way to provoke readers with a narrative meditation on the nature and consequences of belief was to reach actual believers. And provoke I did. Other writers, like China Mieville, M. John Harrison, Gene Wolfe, John Crowley, to name just a few, are doing the same thing, producing work that is obviously literary, openly provocative, yet unheard of in literary circles for the simple sin of wearing wrong generic skin. These are the writers who are genuinely shaking things up, as opposed to hawking intellectual and aesthetic buzzes inside the literary echo chamber.
>>
>>18180908
>Rothfuss seemed to like Legend.
Even more of a reason not to touch it.

>>18180915
/lit/ has garbage taste and only worships high-school/college reading lists, and an occasional meme or two. Don't trust the board.
>>
>>18180922
is right about /lit/ in general.
I like the philosophy bros tho
>>
>>18180837
Its main themes are heroism, redemption, advancing age, I guess. Legend deals with an aging/old hero fighting impossible odds that he knows he cannot defeat, with following books chronicling his journey from a simple woodsman to becoming a famed warrior.

I wouldn’t say it is particularly deep, but it is quite contemplative of its chosen issues. The prose is good. Its almost like a more introspective Conan, though maybe Gemmell isn’t quite as skilful a writer as Howard.
>>
>>18180922
What books aside from Bakker would you recommend?
>>
>>18180947
A couple of anons are okay, but mostly this board offers people nothing outside of spoonfeeding them lists that could be acquired in a few seconds wrth of googling and the illusion of socializing with people that share your earnest interest in whatever avenue of literature you're into, when in reality it's full of dumb dumbs that spout fallacy ridden gibberish, on top of being irony poisoned to a severe degree. Even the shitposting hasn't been that good in the last few years.
>>
>>18180990
Zelazny's The Chronicles of Amber, tbqh. People seem to have forgotten it, although it's big in /sffg/.
>>
>>18180998
What makes Amber Chronicles good?
>>
>>18181060
Political intrigue, well thought out and a sprawling epic that sadly got rushed in the later portion due to Zelazny being ill and rushing to finish the series because he was afraid he'll die before managing to do so, but it's still one of the best fantasy series out there and just damn good literature in general. It's a must read for any fantasy fan.
>>
>>18175413
I loved Bröderna Lejonhjärta as a kid. Great story.
>>
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>>18180922
>even more of a reason not to touch it
Yeah, I can't think why that anon thought posting that shit was a good idea. I would still recommend Gemmell, but I haven't read Legend. He's a fun writer, the two of his books I've read so far, Morningstar and Knights of Dark Renown, were good. Morningstar obviously took heavy influence from Robin Hood, Dark Renown from the Knights of the Round Table, but I think he does interesting things with them.
The major fault with the two I've read, which are standalones and not part of larger series so I don't know if this is a thing that happens in all his books, is that they start on a very small scale and continue with that until the halfway point, where things get slightly bigger. Then major events are crammed into the last 50 or so pages, like the fate of kingdoms, or time travel, and so on
>>
>>18176854
>Red Inja books by Richard Tierney and David Smith
Dude I had to google that ... apparently you meant Red Sonja?
>>
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this thread is based as hell and infinitely superior to the tranny vtumor cancer that /sffg/ has become. long may it reign.
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>>18181439
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Books for this feel?
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>Scrutiny. Calculation.
>>
>>18181516
almost any epic fantasy? Book of the New Sun?
>>
I'm a brainlet when it comes to math, but I'm intrigued by some of the books by Greg Egan, any suggestions as where to start with him, any that aren't particularly too math-focused?
>>
>>18175146
Based OP.
Threadly reminder that No-God never EVER, Bakkerfags.
>>
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>>18181613
>>
>>18181626
Some day anon, some day...
>>
>>18181516
you'd struggle to find a fantasy book that doesn't follow the hero's jouney format.
I can't think of one desu.
>>
>>18181879
bakker, stop reading shlock sp
>>
>>18181525
>that he could look so pale in the light of his son!
>>
>>18183193
>bakker working out his obvious daddy issues
>>
>>18181626
>>18181613
He had major issues with his shit publisher to the point that he barely managed to release The Second Apocalypse books. Hew got absolutely dogshit covers that make them look like the most generic bargain bin trash. His publisher has since been bought by a corporation and his books have gone out of print. Seriously, check amazon, they don't even sell him anymore, you can only get his books from marketplace vendors selling off dwindling old new stock.
>>
Will it be good?
>>
>>18183220
If it doesn't sell why would they bother? Bakker is just gonna be irrelevant and forgotten.
>>
>>18180380
I didn't know that those two are connected, but I'm not surprised that the trannies who took over sffg also run that thread. It explains why so many inexplicably posted their shit ideas for writing books in sffg.
>>
>>18177917
No I don't, would appreciate one.
>>
>>18183233
yeah just maybe annoying political
>>
Guys I read DUNE a year or so ago and wasn't really impressed but I watched pic related recently because I was bored (and a Lynchfag) and my interest in the series has piqued once more.
Should I give the original book a reread or jump into Messiah or just stick to wikipedia since I'm more or less spoiled on the overall plot of the series?
>>
>>18183235
I think his series isn't worse than any of the other big ones, just weird, in a way that some people find interesting, and others find confusing. Negative reviews rarely point out actual problems with the books, they mostly talk about how the reviewer is too dumb to understand what is going on, while also complaining that Bakker explains too much.
People who can't stomach the rape are legit, but there's rape in other popular books as well, including Malazan. I was actually put off a lot by how Malazan handled child sexual abuse, the author clearly has no idea and so shouldn't have used it. That book made me actively angry at the author. Bakker has far, far more and worse rape, but I feel that it's treated with appropriate seriousness and evokes a kind of horror at what is happening that I assume filters people far more than the dumb normie take on rape that other authors have, and that people just gloss over because they don't know what sexual abuse is really like either somehow. Another thing that makes me feel like I exist in a separate reality from other people. /rant

It's weird to me how poorly his books sell, because online he is treated as one of the biggest fantasy authors. Does he have a strong following among hardcore fans of the genre, but filters the bulk of the casual masses? This discrepancy between discussion and praise on the one hand, and low sales on the other is strange to me.
>>
>>18183337
Messiah, its a quick read and it'll allow you to easily springboard into the other novels.
>>
>>18183338
Dude got nuked in the public perception area, no doubt. I think the fact that the first book is by far the hardest to understand factors in too. But combine that with every female character being a whore and you only need to look to see the seethe it evoked in a very large subset of fantasy readers. That sort of negative publicity can kill pretty much anything, let alone an unknown author’s debut.

Basically it has a really, really tough entry point for a massive chunk of readers. Confusing opening, ''''sexism''''', and being mega grimdark (in the actual sense of the word) all go towards providing a giant filter that most genre fiction readers can't be fucked going through. Which is a massive shame, since I'm only on book 3 and it’s one of my all time favourites already.
>>
>>18183620
The sexism gets better in the second series of books too, and the second is one of the best books in the entire series period, so I think if people could just get to that they'd get hooked.
>>
>>18183633
Thats the really annoying thing, since we get the emancipation of Esmenet in book two, and from what I hear Bakker even has a badass school of witches later on. But some readers (often the same people who claim to love grimdark) can't handle a book filled with fundamental religious zealots in a medieval society treating women like shit...

...So they drop it and miss the society changing and becoming more egalitarian, instead reading books where that is already the case (and only milk toast, softball grimdark ideas are written about).
>>
>>18179941
best starter novel you'd rec for each of those four?
>>
So other than Bakker who should I read if I want whores and rape?
>>
>>18175146
>Returns to /lit/ to find that /sffg/ has become /wsffg/
Something happened here.... a terrible battle....
>>
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>>18183959
No, the other one still exists and yet remains. We few fled and created a general of our own out of spite and intolerance of their anime faggotry. I, for one, will die on this hill. Here I will stay, here I will die, and here I will be buried. I bade thee, my brothers: abandon not the general, surrender not the standard!
>>
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>>18183935
>>
>>18184005
Well I could read prince of thorns but everyone says it's terrible.
>>
>>18183220
>you can only get his books from marketplace vendors selling off dwindling old new stock.
Oh shit, I wasn't planning on reading Bakker (at least not for awhile) but if he goes completely out of print, and doesn't get popular enough to warrant a re-run of his books, then we'd better buy them now before they become too hard to find
>>
>>18184079
Just pirate, it's already too late for Bakker. There's no hope for him.
>>
>>18180137
the charms of black company fade after the first 2 books, though if you are a maalzan fan go for it; mst is a precursor of sorts for fantasy such as asoiaf.
>>
>>18184112
How does it feel to know that, at the end of the day, Bakker was just a fad? His name is doomed to never be spoken again in the forums of Fantasy discussion, mentioned only in passing, in secret, in shadowy corners and empty alleyways of the internet. The memory of his works is relegated to remain and reside in the archives of /sffg/.
>>
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>>18184005
Is there a chart of fantasy novels for people who aren't edgelords?
>>
>>18184139
Good in a way. It means I get to soapbox on everyone else's tastes, since at the end of the day Bakker is a really good author, just one who caught the opposite of lightning in a bottle.

It doesn't change how good or bad the books are for me. Though I do wish he'd got the recognition that far worse authors get for not even a tenth the skill or thought in their works.
>>
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Bakker is grimderp and cringe
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>>18184005
Why did you crop out the "BOOKS TO AVOID:" at the top of this chart?
>>
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>>18175202





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