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Reading his books rn and wondering if you can get any sort of traditional hindu initiation as someone outside the caste system. Is it possible?
>>
I can't believe Rene Guénon supposedly existed in color. I can only imagine him as a sepia-colored person.
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>>18167577
Lmao
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>>18167577
Is not the same time when you said this on my thread.
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>>18167561
Yeah, especially in the West. You just go to a hindu temple and start talking to one of the priests (can't remember the name). The caste system isn't as big here as in India, mostly because all non south-indian immigrants are of high caste. You could also get married to an indian girl. Her family would absolutely love that you're interested in their religion.
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>>18167599
first*
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>>18167599
Sorry, I don't speak ESL
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>>18167577
Lol, now that you mentioned it, neither can I.
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>>18167561
Yes you can, it’s not that common but its certainly doable. Most or all schools of Vaishnavism offer the Samasrayana initiation into their school, also called the pancha samskara or five purifications; this does not have any ancestral, caste or nationality requirements.

Most schools of Shaivism and Shaktism also offer initiation without any caste requirements either, as they base their initiations on the Tantric Agamas which teach a kind of initiation which the Agamas say are without caste requirements. I have seen a traditional guru of Veerashaivism say in an interview before that they are willing to initiate foreigners who agree to follow all of their sects observances and rules.

The things that you would probably be prohibited from doing would be undergoing a sacred-thread ceremony which is supposed to be only for the twice-born castes; but you dont need to undergo this or some other Vedic-rite related ceremony to be initiated into a sect of Hinduism.

Any of this can be confirmed with like 2 minutes of research but it seems very common for people on /lit/ to either deliberately lie about this or to repeat the misconception that its impossible to be initiated as a foreigner.
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>>18167667
Thank you for your response anon, going to search more about this subject.
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>>18167561
Yes it is. The rich jew who bought Guenon's home in Cairo was initiated into hinduism.
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>>18167561
Not in Advaita-Vedanta
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>>18167989
False.
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>>18168137
How? OP was talking about traditional initiation, not some type of western neo-vedanta.
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>>18167577
Sorry.
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>>18168211
why are his eyes so black
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>>18168211
... Holy based... Pbuh in all his glory...
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>>18168178
When there is parampara, there is initiation. Even if the master is not very strict in his adaptations of Vedanta. Guenon talked about these adaptation of the forms of initiation and unfortunate vulgarization that impoverish them.
Of course westerners keep a second role.
I personally know a western sannyasi in link with the matha of Shringeri, established by Adi Shankara.
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>>18168211
Nice, how did you made it ? It looks like he has make-up though
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>>18167667
Is Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya legit?
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>>18168395
From what I can tell, he traveled to India and was initiated into Vaishnavism there and studied with Vaishnava gurus. Some people poke fun at him for also being into semi-/pol/ tier stuff but I have seen no evidence that he’s not qualified to speak on Vaishnavism and their perspective.
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>>18168444 checked
>into semi-/pol/ tier stuff
Isn't it a good thing ?
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>>18167561
>>18168211
This man has a very long face.
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>>18168542
He is good looking though
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>>18168542
Guénon walks into a bar; the bartender asks: "why the long face?"
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>>18168476
I mean I dont disagree with the right-wing sentiments he expresses but it just feels a little off-putting for me, to go from discussing the nature of the Infinite to muh SJW’s and cultural Marxism. In my experience I’m much more struck by the writings of people who largely stay above politics like Guenon for example. I have not read Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharyas books yet though so that’s just my superficial impression from seeing a few videos and quotes of him.
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>>18168601
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>>18167561
Yeah, buddhism. Read Coomaraswamy next. Good luck
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>>18168619
>buddhism
I don't think is an invalid tradition but not a big fan desu.
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>>18168371
Moar coloar
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>>18168618
Why the wide face?
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>>18167561
If you're of considerable Aryan descent like most Europeans are, you're automatically in the highest possible caste over all Indians.
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>>18167561
Le happy Guénon in colour.
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>>18167561
unrelated question, but why did this nigga believe the end of the kali yuga will come soon when hindu cosmology clearly states it's gonna go on for another 420000 years?
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>>18168862
>troons want to start a white family with 7 kids who all dress the same when they go to church
okay schizo
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>>18167561
If you want to test a hindu guru, ask him about reincarnation, this is the basic guenon-filter.
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>>18168872
>Doesn't know what "poltroon" means.

Read a fucking book.
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>>18168872
>when they go to church

You mean to their local Protestant communal club.
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>>18168902
I assumed you meant “troons from /pol/“ as I had seen at least one poster here unironically trying to say traditionalists were secretly trannies
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>>18168614
Yeah I understand well.
Still I also hate when spiritual people are naive normies, not left wing though but unable to see the wickedness of society, unlike Guenon for example.
Also "muh sjw" is normie tier right wing.
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>>18168444
Thanks for the reply anon. I've been following his Youtube channel for a while where he talks about performing initiations internationally.
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>>18168851
Looks like Adam Driver
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>>18168981
Not him, but it's easier than ever to sort the wheat from the chaff. Priests of the early Kali Yuga had to at least feign piety in public, keeping any evil activities hidden. Nowadays you can get a larger following from being openly evil, so they don't bother with the mask. Horrifying to see, but the compensation is you can filter people with a few simple questions.
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>>18169065
True
But there is also the spiritual ones that at the same time, since they only care about the spiritual, are completely naive about, let's say for example all the bullshit with the corona psyop. I am still chocked everyone failed for it, even in most religious circles (some I know didn't though, like in Athos).
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>>18168818
Noice

What would Guenon (pbuh) have thought about that though ?
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>>18169237
>Athos
Monks around there are also pretty modernized, both in spirit and in technology.
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>>18169237
That's exactly what I'm talking about. If they can't see evil in front of them, how can they be more enlightened than you are? Best to ignore them, no matter how spiritual they claim to be.
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>>18168818
looks like an anime senpai
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>>18169333 Holy triad
Where are they not ?
They were still based in terms of foreseeing of the antichrist.

>>18169360
That's a good point I suppose, but do enlightenment really apply to such trivial matters (in comparison to the spiritual) ? If you know the nature of God, do you really know everything ?
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>>18168856
>clearly
where does it ever say that?
also, read this: https://sufipathoflove.com/timeline-of-cycles-by-rene-guenon-and-gaston-georgel/
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>>18169333
What do you mean by modernized in spirit also ?
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>All of Hinduism is just advaita vedanta
>Nooooo! All those other philosophies don't actually exist it's an illusion!
I think I'll stick to what Hindus have to say instead of a self-taught sufi
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>>18169388
in the vishnu purana

Kali-yuga started 3102 BC in past:
= current year + Kali-yuga start year - year zero
= 2021 + 3102 - 1
= 5122 years

Kali-yuga-sandhya (dawn) ends 32,899 AD in future:
= Kali-yuga-sandhya + elapsed Kali-yuga
= 36000 - (2021 + 3102 - 1)
= 30878 years

Kali-yuga-sandhyamsa (dusk) starts 392,899 AD in future:
= Kali-yuga - Kali-yuga-sandhyamsa - elapsed Kali-yuga
= 432000 - 36000 - (2021 + 3102 - 1)
= 390878 years

Kali-yuga ends 428,899 AD in future:
= Kali-yuga - elapsed Kali-yuga
= 432000 - (2021 + 3102 - 1)
= 426878 years
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>>18169414
Did you even read the article I posted? Guenon writes extensively on this in his book traditional forms and cosmic cycles.
Hindu rishis deliberately inflate the numbers.
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>>18169408
>All of Hinduism is just advaita vedanta
He didn't say so, in fact hindus will most likely be more sectarians than Guenon which admitted the orthodoxy of vishishtadvaita for example. Something an advaitist would not do.

>Nooooo! All those other philosophies don't actually exist it's an illusion!
It's just different point of views. And you choose yours according to the veda, if you want to be sectarian you can even say the others are not orthodox. Guenon wasn't.

Also he had an hindu guru, so he is not self-thaught (which he couldn't at that time)
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>>18169436
so the world will really end in like 10 years??? is that enough time for guenon's prophesied "invertion of quality" and the reign of the antichrist to be established?
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>>18169388
>Krita-Yuga (Golden) – 62,770 B.C. to 36,850 B.C.
>Treta-Yuga (Silver) – 36,850 B.C. to 17,410 B.C.
>Dvapara-Yuga (Bronze) – 17,410 B.C. to 4,450 B.C.
>Kali-Yuga (Iron) – 4,450 B.C. to 2,030 A.D.
Holy shit! The end is nigh.
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>>18169396
I am not a specialist on this subject so I don't want to speak about all monks on Mount Athos, but some of them seem to have a similar mentality to that of the average orthodox believers, for example the fascination with miracles and other things of a more or less material order, also the so called "prophecies" about all sort of things, the big importance which is attribute to all of this is quite modernist. If you read Guenon, his definition of "mysticism" would fit very well in this context. Bad again, my remarks are based on the more outward level, so who knows what is still there.
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>>18169449
Get initiated until it's too late!
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>>18169449
I think it might be sooner than we think, but no one knows exactly when.
I don't think anyone expected the pandemic and how life would be radically changed like this.
The shias believe that Imam Mahdi will come after the red death and the white death, one is a bloody world war and the other is a disease, with each taking a third of the population.
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>>18169506
>>18169506
well the last world war was 80 years ago and covid isn't even close to killing a third of the population, so unless something unprecedent happens within the next decade guenon's calculations seem to be incorrect. he also prophesized the working of fabulous "phenomena" by people with infernal powers, identical to those worked by the truly initiated, which i have yet to see any hint of
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>>18169553
>he also prophesized the working of fabulous "phenomena" by people with infernal powers, identical to those worked by the truly initiated, which i have yet to see any hint of
I also thought about this, what if is true but the agents of the counter-initiation are operating in a more hidden way? Or maybe it needs more time?
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>>18169553
I have to agree with you on that because God clearly says:
>>Indeed, Allah ˹alone˺ has the knowledge of the Hour. He sends down the rain,1 and knows what is in the wombs.2 No soul knows what it will earn for tomorrow, and no soul knows in what land it will die. Surely Allah is All-Knowing, All-Aware.
there's also the phantom time hypothesis which if true could mean that we are in the 1800s or 1900s and not in 2000s
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>>18167600
>Her family would absolutely love that you're interested in their religion.
???? I know some Indians get excited when a westerner shows interest in their customs, language, etc. but *every* Indian I've met is extremely strict about marrying within the race, even the younger ones. Why would they make an exception for a Shaivist LARPer?
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>>18169586
yes. in the end i believe that only God actually knows when the kali yuga will end, given that it even is a "when" in the normal understanding, since time will win over space whatever that may mean
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>>18169605
>Why would they make an exception for a Shaivist LARPer?
because you are white
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>>18169468
I don't think they care that much in prophecies in the mount Athos at least they didn't care at all about the ones of saint Paissios the athonite (of course there is everything and you can believe it).
In an article about christianism and initiation Guenon talked about mysticism and initiation in regard to orthodoxy. In fact he said there is no mysticism in orthodoxy. Orthodox still know powers are just gifts and visions are just for the lower stages of the spiritual journey and I don't think they fail in sentimentality, that is the mark of mysticism. Instead, they still have their dotrine against prelest. There is no big discontinuity between the average orthodox and the mount athos in the spirit, the best being there of course.
So yes of course, but not too much, also the renewal of hesychasm because of saint Joseph the troglodyte makes the mount Athos have some good spiritual fathers, from what I can tell.
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>>18169719
I know Guenon's article where he spoke about hesychasm and he was right that there are certain technical modes of prayer which usually, when things like this are found in other traditions, they are connected with initiation. I honestly didn't saw any proof of initiation until now in hesychasm, Guenon didn't really had much knowledge on this subject either, at least as far as I know, and he said in the article that we should investigate further on this topic. In my opinion there are two possibilities: 1.there was an initiation but it became exteriorized and therefore lost (like Guenon thought about the sacraments) or 2. there is still an initiation but is almost inaccessible (like Guenon said that in the final period of Kali Yuga, initiatic organizations will become more and more closed, like a seashell). Concering the second possibility, I read in the comments on a french guenonian blog that there was a small group of orthodox monks which preferred to die without passing the initiatic lineage forward, in order to avoid degeneration or something like that. This really made me curious, I will try to find that comment again.
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>>18168211
What blessed sight! A beatific vision of the master himself!
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>>18168395
He’s an Aryan Invasion denier, so no.
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>>18169935
In orthodoxy there is : a spiritual father, a benediction (medium from spiritual influences, kissing the hand,...), learning a prayer, a teaching about how to practice it (that usually the spiritual father teach directly). Under the guidance and in obedience to a spiritual father the prayer bear fruits, according to testimonies about the latter century saints ( for example saint Charalambos of Bourazeri usually taught it to visitors who had spiritual enlightenment by praying in his guidance). There is an instance of saint Joseph the hesychast sending spiritual knowledge to a disciple at a determined time and telling it to him in advance. Initiation isn't necessarily administratively determined by a ceremony. Since orthodoxy is not limited to a given number of sacraments and since it have a lot of benediction we can suppose a lot of things can take the role of the baraka. We know kissing the hand of a spiritual father often gives illumination and peace. And monks do this every day with their elder. So it might be an existential direct link more than an administrative one. Also I know living spiritual fathers that opened voluntarily in a direct and immediate what are now their disciples to the spiritual realm.

But also maybe ultimately, the initiation might be becoming monk itself (or hermit with a spiritual father). Since it is said you are reborn again like after the baptism. So initiation can go from a spiritual father in a direct way (learning prayer, kissing the hand, being in the presence of the spiritual master,...) or/and through the administrative way of monachism, still conducted by an elder. And there were no breaking of the monastic tradition in orthodoxy.

Michel Valsan was of the opinion that there is still initiation in orthodoxy.

Of course christians do not have a non-dualist path, even their initiation is devotional, so there is no guenonian esoterism in it, and that is normal. Christian dogmas, without the filioque heresy, play the role of the metaphysics.
The orthodox doesn't admit they have initiation but since they view the link with a spiritual father to be necessary it is the same.
I see no reason, except the abusive assimilation of orthodox monachism to the western one to suppose the forms of orthodox christian initation to not be "enough".
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>>18169935
>>18170377

I would be interested by this comment and the blog (tagada ?). Was that about coptic monks ?

Also sacraments can become support and acquire an esoteric value thanks to initiation, the initiate becoming able to reach it.
The differences between western and eastern monachism are numerous : the filioque, techniques, mysticism (Guenon said there were none in orthodoxy, and indeed it came after the schism), the priviledged link with a spiritual masters that is supposed to be advanced in the way, hesychasm, the theology of the energies,...
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>>18170377
Well, what concerns me about christianity in general and orthodoxy in particular, is that it tends to be very dualistic. Many orthodox monks spoke about their spiritual battles with demons and so forth, without reaching any concrete realization on this earth(I always had a sinister feeling about this stories of the monks desu). Like what would be for example the equivalent in orthodoxy of the islamic "primordial man" or "universal man"?
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>>18170440
>I would be interested by this comment and the blog (tagada ?). Was that about coptic monks ?
that was the blog but can't remember the article, don't even know if it was on topic
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>>18170491
>>18170513
same anon here, I will sleep and come back in 8 hours if the thread will not die
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>>18170528
Yeah me too ahah
>>18170491
Me too but it was always like that. I think it's just the christian way. You don't find non-dualism in it. But even dualist school have initiation in India for example.
Not reaching anything is the worst but eh, it happens everywhere. Still there is "spiritual laws" in orthodoxy and it's not a question of luck, but of personal work and purity.
The equivalent to the primordil man is the new Adam, the Christ, the Alpha an the Omega that saves all the humanity within himself.
>>
what the fuck is that midface
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>>18169237
This is what bothers me too. You have spiritual leaders like the EO Patriarchate saying it's a moral imperative for Orthodox Christians to support BLM without understanding the Marxist and other ideological implications behind the movement.
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>>18170606
This one is particularly cucked. He got the vaccine, is ecumenist, fight against opposition in the holy mountain by ejecting elders,...
Monks just fear too much to stop naming him during liturgy (a form of protestation that have been used by saints to withdraw from an heterodox patriarch).
He is more than just naive, he is a key piece and is not orthodox.
Fortunate he doesn't have absolute autority.
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>>18170657
I assumed you were talking about the patriarch of Constantinople.
He also stopped the liturgy wordwide (he is responsible of the church that are not autonomous) while not being obligated during the scamdemic
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>>18170657
>fight against opposition in the holy mountain by ejecting elders,...
Oh fuck, I have ambitions to become a monk and live at Athos. Has he replaced those elders with those who support the globohomo and great reset agenda?
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>>18170704
No, still good one from what I remember.
It was the elder of saint paul monastery. The current one is said to be saint
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>>18168211
MY EYES!!
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>>18168211
This isn't accurate. All written records say he had blue eyes
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>>18168211
>As reported by Abdu Zikhari (ra) in his observations of the Philospher (pbuh) in his late Cairo years (c. 1941-1951), "My dear friend grew increasingly frustrated at times when I would bring his mail and person affects from the junction, an errand I was pleased to do for such a great man. His frustration was not at me, but the contents. For he oft received letters and magazines with the newly developed coloured film whereupon a great sigh was heard and the utterance that preceded thereof was the following, "Coloured images beget an uncoloured mind. Remember that. For what the soul and inner faculties would fill in, it is now obscured by the narrator of inks which deceive the eye and mind, and corrupt and kill the soul. Verily, its producers will suffer eternal hellfire." He then tore and set ablaze the images. He warned me among others to never use colour film, an artifice of the devil and stairway to hell.
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>>18171048
I like Guenon, but is reasoning is clearly disingenuous. We had colored art since dawn of Man, why the hell would motion picture be an exception?
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>>18171080
Everything realistic.
>>18171048
Very based. What is the source ?
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>>18171080
Images are not art. They are screenshots of reality. Without a reference, the veracity of them could not be ascertained and brain does not think critically of its content. Guenon also possessed a degerotype camera and developing equipment despite being obsolete.
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>>18169436
>Hindu rishis deliberately inflate the numbers.
Lol so Guenon thought he knew better than the actual Hindu texts he believed in. Ridiculous.
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>>18171417
Yes.
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>>18171118
>Images are not art. They are screenshots of reality.
Photography absolutely is an artform. A camera creates an image in a way that can be adjusted and manipulated, it doesn't magically capture a slice of reality.
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>>18171417
The original text has it at 1200 divine years. Many hindu scholars don't agree on the wikipedia number of 434620346823 years or whatever. And I think that the exact date is unknowable, but what is certain is that we are nearing the end of this cycle.
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>>18171518
The original texts all state that a solar year is one day and night of the gods. One divine year is 360 solar years (using the traditional calendar of 360 days). Guenon claims, with no good reason, that we can take a divine year as a solar year. This is not what the Hindu texts say and Guenon is against the tradition here.

If you don't believe me, check the texts themselves:

Mahabharata 12.224 (critical edition) = 12.231 (bombay edition)

Vishnu Purana 1.3

Manusmriti 1.67-73
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>>18170584
Well orthodoxy is for sure a valid tradition, so is catholicism but even more incomplete.
>You don't find non-dualism in it.
True in a way but at the same time you also have people like Meister Eckhart.
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>>18172350
The differences are :
>the filioque
>technics of prayer to control the mental (respiration, body,...)
>relationship with the spiritual fathers
>No limitation of sacraments to a given number
>Benedictions of a spiritual father can be counted as sacraments
>No mysticism
>Always the same thing unchanged, like for example the artstyle or chants (even the gregorian is a reconstruction)
>A lot of saints in the last century to the point you can't easily count them all
>Obediance is to the faith and the spiritual father, not to the pope or patriarch.
>Hesychasm in general with the Jesus prayer that a master teach directly with specific instruction that there is not in catholicism with the idea that it is with the benediction of the spiritual master that you can get enlightened.
>Rejections of meditative imaginations like you find in Ignace of Loyola methods
>Rejection of sensations or visions

So the difference is not a question of scale or intensity but of qualitative jump : orthodoxy is in another category, and I don't talk about all the consequences, liked feminization of the western form or differing experiences in contemplation.

According to Guenon there were no initiation but only mysticism in catholicism, while it wasn't the case in orthodoxy.
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>>18172934
The sacraments are initiatic. Once you realize this nothing else will matter, this list is purely accidental. Filioque is true by the way.

Why do you bother with that anyway? Do you believe in the real presence or not? It seems like you seek visions of the 'uncreated fire' rather than Christ.
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>>18173090
>The sacraments are initiatic
There is no such thing as initiation given to all people indiscriminately.
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>>18173090
If you get communion with indignity, without discernment, you collect bad fruits, right ?
If you don't prepare yourself before communion you don't collect neither good nor bad fruits, right ?

In order to effectively know about the real presence, in order for the sacrament to not only appear as a sign, you must therefore prepare yourself.
This preparation is all the initiation. It makes the potential benefit of baptism and sacraments effective.
Without cleaning your eye, it doesn't matter if it receive light, you will not see anything, or only some deformation sometimes.

The list I made is all the initiatic means to purify your spiritual eye. Dogmas are also means of purification and the Filioque is an heresy (that would be too long to explain it to you but even pope - orthodox at that time - resisted it's imposition by the germans). Read history of the Church and the mystagogy of saint Photios ; according to your capacities.

There is no dichotomy between the uncreated fire and Christ only a distinction with his human appearance to us.
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Yes
Advita Vedanta imitates people
https://ramakrishna.org/
https://www.advaita-vedanta.org/avhp/ this one is a comfy 90s site

The Hare Krishnas do lots of initations
https://centres.iskcon.org/

Kashmiri Shivites of Kauai's Hindu Monestary
https://www.himalayanacademy.com/livespiritually/monastic-life/how-to
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>>18173991
Himalayan Academy is southern Shaiva Siddhanta, not Kashmir Shavism. The latter is extinct in terms of lineage.
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>>18173239
John 3:16
>16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

God's grace is gratuitous, it's not for a select sect.

John 18:20
>"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret.
>I said nothing in secret.

you either believe in Christ or Guénon. what is it gonna be? Guénon was not an infallible teacher. Read more Guénon until you realize this, or read some criticism, like Schuon's book on him.

>>18173899
how old are you?

The discernment expected is that communicant should acknowledge that THAT IS THE BODY OF CHRIST. (and of course be in a state of grace)

Re-read what you wrote, your list is not about 'initiatic means to purify the spiritual eye'. It's mostly about how you view differences betwen EO and CC.

To say there's no real spirituality in the west would be a lie, to use the jesuitic anti-mystical inclination as example is dishonest --- why not benedictine, carthusian, augustinian spirituality? Most of your list is garbage, to be honest, and you sound more infatuated with the IDEA of becoming a spiritually initiated than with actual spirituality. This would fall under what you so call prelest, which much of the younger orthodox are guilt of. You shouldn't even bother with this stuff if you are not mature.
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>>18174048
Taking quotes from the Bible in a literal way doesn't prove anything and they can even seem to be contradictory. Your egalitarianism is in contradiction with the Christendom of the Middle Ages. Today catholics act like there was only the Church in that period(which they don't really understand anyway), what about the initiatic organizations? The craft initiation of the medieval masonry, the Fedeli d'Amore of Dante, The Order of the Temple, or different groups related to christian hermeticism? This is not a question of being saved, but of attaining certain states of being which can be achieved only after receiving initiation, which is nothing else than spiritual influence transmitted by someone who already possess it, from higher to lower. Initiation understood in this way can be found in all great religions of the world, only your tradition lacks it. You can either accept the truth, as uncomfortable as it may be, or you are just lying to yourself.
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>>18174048
>how old are you?
This is an anonymous board, I don't talk about myself and you should worry about actually what I say. No one is too old or young to consider religious matters (given it is not for entertainment but for his spiritual benefit).

Acknowledging that it is the body of Christ is a whole spiritual experience, not just a rational one. That's why there is the need of a proper spiritual preparation, called "initiation" in guenonian circles. It is a purification of passions through asceticism and a stability of the mind through the mental prayer (Prayer of the heart that used to be condemned by catholic circles and now accepted by some of them in a purged form).
The catholic church doesn't have the means of purification I listed. In fact they thought for centuries the hesychastic means of purification were hereticals, and that it was a pantheist illusion (and some still think so).
Orthodox don't say there is no spirituality in catholicism, only that they forgot deification (theosis) or forgot the means to it. They limited the effect of God's grace to someone, they said these effects were limited. On can't judge everything, but it is a fact that catholic mysticism, and it's theory, is very different from orthodox spirituality. I would say it is tainted (by visions, sentiment,....), not pure spirituality. It is not tainted because of guiltiness, but because there is not the means to reach the highest goal of participation to God's energies (also something catholics declare pantheistic).

Now I assumed at the beginning, since you joined a guenonian conversation, that you were a guenonian (Borellian ?) ; that is, one who had an understanding of metaphysics. If you can't have that, maybe I should politely stop the conversation since you won't be able to grasp the difference between mysticism and initiation, nor the importance of dogmas, technics,... And you won't be able to understand that one should start from the metaphysical principles (here the christian dogmas) to only apply it after to special cases, and not the other way around, as you started to do. Doctrine have the priority upon what we could know of some supposed saints in the past. Theology is above history. Also I started badly the discussion with the supposition you would understand guenonian points, so my bad.
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>>18174351
This is ego speaking.
>This is not a question of being saved
Exactly. It's about egoic self-deification. It is always a matter of devotional path to salvation versus intellectual self-deification.

You are not after Truth (for God is the Truth), but after lineages of initiation so you can larp with and feed your ego. Any hermit achieves higher spirituality than such secret larper clubs.
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>>18172350
>>18174048
I didn't answer to you about meister Eickhart.
That fact is orthodoxy isn't an administration. It is a faith dogmatically defined and even if the pope adopted one that was heretical at the time (filioque, supremacy of Rome,...) it seems Meister Eckhart didn't, even if he obeyed the patriarch of western europe. I will not dwelve into the possible historical reasons of this. Also orthodox like him. But still, his metaphysical sensibility with a lot of reflexion and paradox is not very christian in it's sensibility. Some can say that it's part of the dominican spirit, so part of a latter development. Of course you will find non-duality or just the doctrine of deification in his oeuvre, but to this extant it is pretty original and anormal for a christian (even though it doesn't mean anything about his sanctity).
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>>18174426
Why do you insert into a guenonian discussing to mock it ?
You should stick to christian religion and actually read some unbiased history of the church. At least try to understand your own religion before starting a debate outside of your own perspective.
Your axiom is religious, good, then work on it instead of opposing your premise to those of others.
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>>18174426
>Any hermit achieves higher spirituality than such secret larper clubs.
Really? Maybe you have certain prejudices against freemasonry but what about the sufis for example? Have you ever heard of the "primordial man" and the "universal man"? Where is this to be found in catholic monasticism? The taoists have other terms for the exact same things so is not something particular to Islam or Sufism.
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>>18174420
>>18174481
>according to your capacities
>since you won't be able to grasp the difference
>won't be able to understand
>supposition you would understand guenonian points

quit this pompous arrogant bullshit. i have well read guénon and i'm telling you he's wrong on denying the initiatic value of the sacraments (as he is wrong on a lot of stuff he talks about dante). he is not infallible like i said, and he was initiated into how many groups? 4? 6? not even advatins exempt him of critique (not to mention buddhists). you take his words for granted when even other associates criticized him (as schuon on this very matter). if you deny the initiatic elements of the sacraments because "guénon said so" you are substituting Christ and his Church for guénon.

i do not intend to mock guénon, i appreciate some of his writings but the 4chan guenonians are the most ridiculous crypto idolaters and i wish he was never spammer in here. he is only an authority for cultists like you --- as in cult of a person.

the question should not be about east vs west as i have no interest in debating with schismatics on church history (they rather seek ecumenism with anglicans and lutherans) but whether the sacraments are initiatic or not --- and on this the authority of roman church already taught they are
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>>18174568
>if you deny the initiatic elements of the sacraments because "guénon said so" you are substituting Christ and his Church for guénon.
You don't understand my point :
Independantly of Guenon, from a spiritual perspective there is a necessary distinction between the sacraments and the preparation for their efficacity. A preparation everyone undergo normally but that is long and not easy process where few succeed (saints).
Sacrament doesn't work alone, without prior purification through asceticism and prayer (i.e. a baby isn't saint magically because he got baptized).

There is more : orthodox deny the presence of sacraments in the roman church. For various change in the form as well as in dogmas and in the discipline that accompany it. I would deny catholics their sacraments for the same reasons that completely join the ones given above.

You throw accusations but you can't address argumentative points. Then you conclude on an argument of autority (that you never left) invoking the roman church. That is pretty weak and is fideism.

Also Borella is an heretic feminist, schuon too and went into spiritual illusion (I won't post the naked photos of him).
Guenon is of course not an autority for traditions, that are autonomous, but he was accepted in Islam without any problem with anyone and have always been respected worldwide. You too should respect him.

You don't want to discuss - refuting any potential common ground that is not the pope - and you lack respect, I won't talk to you anymore.
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Western initiation does not exist. west is Socrates
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>>18174798
you say as if the preparation was exclusive to other initiations when the sacraments in themselves are initiatic.

i haver never read borella, most of critique against guénon come from personal conclusions ad points given by another former member of schuon's tariqa (though there is bolton and daniélou too). any 'guenonian' enthusiast would first have to deal with the fact he inherited the shankaran view from the theosophical society but that's another hole.

i also do not intend to disrespect you but you did come with arrogant underestimation as if you were on a higher ground.

in the end it all comes down to the choice between personal devotion and salvation versus intellectual arrogance for self deification, and for your own sake i hope you choose the former. you mention schuon, yes, and you should know very well how intellectuals fall from their objectives and secret groups devolve into all sorts of degenerate practices, a very common trend. the supposed egoless goal is never attained, the ego instead is crowned as godlike and degeneration occurs.

humility and prayer, yes, this is the path to sanctity, and there is no other path higher than it --- as your own fr. seraphim rose said. everything else is prelest.
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>>18174798
>Also Borella is an heretic feminist, schuon too
Please, tell me more about this.
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>>18174960
>any 'guenonian' enthusiast would first have to deal with the fact he inherited the shankaran view from the theosophical society
Very funny, can't believe that I wasted my time with someone who reached such a conclusion.
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>>18175024
should've known his first stop was at the theosophical society which adopts shankara as the orthodox hindu view. where do you think he got to know him?
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>>18174991
Borella talks about that in "La femme et le sacerdoce". I don't know if it has been translated in english.
He condemn "masculinism" as an unworthy and degrading attitude, says women are not inferior, but in fact are the royal spiritual priesthood (men taking care of the material one), by nature co-liturge and guardians of the interiority.
It's in the line of John Paul II's view expressed in "mulieris dignitatem".
He also says the Virgin mary (representing feminity) is a divine principle, that her supposed immaculate conception is in link with the filioque,...


Schuon too, and he goes to suppose a feminine principle above the already absolute principle represent as masculine. The feminine being above in his opinion because of the Virgin and the quality of mercy. Counter-initiatic tier
https://www.themathesontrust.org/library/colorless-light-and-pure-air

With the two you can see various implications of the filioque heresy.

You can google "schuon naked to see some of his paints. Also there is a website in french that talks about his bad conduct against Guénon
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>>18175045
I am tired of this idea, popularized by Sedgwick, that Guenon was a crypto-theosophist, reading some of his books is enough to realize how absurd it is. No one knows where he first heard of Shankara and it has no importance. What matters are his sources on advaita-vedanta and the rest of hinduism, which were learned from the authentic hindus which he personally knew. His ring with the "aum" inscription was probably from this people.
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>>18175112
i don't care about sedgwick, this point is raised by another person (e-mail exchange between robert bolton and upton). there is no reason to adopt shankara as opposed to ramanuja or madvha other than the fact it was the popularized by blavatsky within the context of a soil sowed by german idealism. why shankara to begin with? advaita is crypto buddhism.
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>>18175111
>Schuon too, and he goes to suppose a feminine principle above the already absolute principle represent as masculine.
I can't arse myself to read 50 pages. Can you point out to me where he explicitly says this?
>He condemn "masculinism" as an unworthy and degrading attitude
Even Julius Evola condemned masculine attitudes like machismo as a degeneration of the masculine principle.

Besides this, I don't see any problem with the feminine being the generative and creative force. Guenon and Schuon are in agreement on this. In Taoism, the feminine principle (yin) precedes the masculine (yang).
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>>18175237
>advaita is crypto buddhism
Is this the phrase you have to say in order to be initiated inito the counter-guenonian mysteries?
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>>18174047
Siddhanta itself is supposed to be descended from kashmir shaivism, perhaps that's what anon was thinking
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>>18175408
Why is kashmir shaivism so popular today? I heard many people talking about it.
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>>18175308

Masculinism is a neologism invented by feminist, it is quite strange to use that as a traditionalist. Also given every single traditional source is "macho", even saint women in the sense Borella had in mind : the opinion that women are subordinate and of inferior birth. I'm interested by the source of this sentence of Evola, even if I don't like him and don't use him as an autority. I am just curious.

Schuon have been influenced by the catholic vision of Mary and of the Trinity
Since he believe the papist new dogma of the immaculate conception he said :
>“Christianity in practice deifies the Mother of Christ, despite exoteric reservations, namely the distinction between latria and hyperdulia”—that is, between worship, properly speaking, and the highest form of veneration (Face of the Absolute, 227).
>"On the one hand, the Gospel says of the Holy Virgin that she is ‘full of grace’ and that ‘the Lord is with thee,’ and that ‘henceforth all generations shall call me blessed’; on the other hand, Christ inherited from the Virgin his entire human nature, from the psychic as well as physical point of view, so that his sacramental body and blood are fundamentally those of the Virgin. Now a person who possesses such prerogatives—to the point of being called ‘Mother of God’ - necessarily has an ‘avataric’ quality, expressed theologically by the idea of ‘Immaculate Conception.’" p. 13
He start from this to subvert the traditional hierarchy (of sexes and aspects of the divinity), as Mary is normally a creature and is not avatara ; but he think she is the avatara of the supreme state.
pages 25-27 and it continues at least to the page 30, the author Cutsinger, disciple of Schuon, still quoting him, talks about the feminine being supposedly superior and more infinite than the masculine.
He also says as Borella, that women are more spiritual
It is all just like sophiology, condemned by the russian orthodox church.

Purusha, in non-dualism, is the supreme and the Prakriti (ignorance, illusion, maya, the principle of limitation) is bellow Him. They are both respectively masculine and feminine.
The materia prima, pure potentiality, is bellow God, pure act (in aristotelician terms).
Yang is the light and Yin the darkness, ignorance. The Sky is above Earth, the Earth comes first to us because we come from it toward the Sky (the divine).
Adam is above Eve, created for him.
In the kabbala, justice is feminine and mercy masculine.
And so on and so on.

Schuon tried to be smarter than traditions, betrayed Guenon, criticized him in his back,... he tried to justify papist madness and tried to distort metaphysicall truth with this motive in mind. This while thinking - unlike Guenon - that esoterism exist as a separate entity from traditions and that he was above them all
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>>18176765
>I'm interested by the source of this sentence of Evola, even if I don't like him and don't use him as an autority. I am just curious.
I don't know if he explicitly says that about male attitude in The Metaphysics of Sex, but he has said masculinity as well as femininity has degenerated, but he has hinted at it in Negrified America which can be found in The Bow and the Club, where he talks about boxing and our fascination with it and says the masculine quality of strength has degenerated to brutality.
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>>18176864
To clarify, I just started reading the Metaphysics of Sex.
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>>18176765
cutsinger was eastern orthodox
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>>18175237
Im not the other poster

>this point is raised by another person
It’s a ridiculous “guilt-by-association” ploy which is of no relevance, Paul Deussen and other western Indologists were already fascinated with Shankara and were writing enthusiastically about him for decades before Guenon. Moreover, if a mistaken person gets something correct on a rare occasion, that doesn’t taint that knowledge just because a notable person who was wrong about other stuff already agreed with it. The Nazis conducted the first national anti-tobacco campaigns and so on but that doesn’t mean tobacco is good.

> there is no reason to adopt shankara as opposed to ramanuja or madvha
That’s nonsense, there are many arguments which can be made for why Shankara’s reading of the Upanishads should be accepted as the most orthodox. Have you ever read the Upanishads? They are stuffed to the brim with countless passages that say “Brahman is Atman”, “Brahman is the inner Self of all beings” “All this is Brahman”, “there is no other entity but Brahman” etc, all of them very clearly pointing to the unity or non-duality of God and the Self. This rules Madhva out right from the bat, he engages in disingenuous quote mining to interpret every Upanishad to mean the exact opposite of what they clearly mean when read and taken at face value. Ramanuja accepts like Shankara the passages affirming unity but he has to deal with the problem that Ramanuja affirms the reality of multiplicity which is denied by the Upanishads at many places. Shankara accepts both the pro-unity and anti-multiplicity passages without issue, Ramanuja has to engage in a balancing act where he tries to have his cake and eat it too.

>advaita is crypto buddhism.
That’s not true, on every level the fundamental metaphysical conclusions of Advaita are diametrically opposed to those of Buddhism. Advaita is unashamedly Absolutist and speaks unreservedly of the Supreme Lord and eternal consciousness, Buddhism reacts with hostility to such concepts. Other Vedantists in some ways are actually more Buddhistic than Shankara. Ramanuja’s analysis of the nature of conciousness is closer to Buddhisms than Shankara is. Ramanuja holds like the Buddhists that all consciousness is essentially dependent on the object associated with it and that there can be no pure unattached consciousness, and that without the object existing there cannot be any consciousness. Shankara following the Upanishads which imply as much says that consciousness can be pure and non-dual without any object; and that this is actually the nature of consciousness as such and that its self-revealing or self-illuminating existence as pure presence is prior to and independent of the objects but its not normally perceived by people due to indiscrimination etc.
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>>18177069
>Shankara’s reading of the Upanishads should be accepted as the most orthodox.

when was advaita considered an orthodox school please tell me

vadiraja refuted shankara btw
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>>18169237
You have spiritually enlightened sages and gurus like the Dalai Lama who travel around the world meeting presidents, prime ministers, royalty, politicians, CEOs, and all manner of rich elites between. I wonder given how spiritually enlightened and hermetic their lifestyles are, if they know just how vain, prideful, greedy, materialist, sociopathic the people they meet are and only share their feelings of contempt for them among their inner circles, and whether they divulge only the most bare bones of ascetic and initiatic practices to them because they want to preserve their traditions as much as possible and the elites are so unworthy to learn them.
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>>18177132
>You have spiritually enlightened sages and gurus like the Dalai Lama
bait
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>>18176897
well not so much since he saw himself "above exoterism" and consequently was oeucumenist, even believing in the immaculate conception,... that even thomas aquinas, bernard of clairvaux, bonaventure,... rejected
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>>18177274
immaculate conception is implied by the greeting of the angel --- "hail Mary, full of grace"
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>>18177105
>when was advaita considered an orthodox school please tell me
The definition of orthodox in Hinduism is fluid and has changed over time, under the most common definitions (i.e. accepting the Sruti as revealed scriptures, belonging to one of the 6 darshanas including... Vedanta) that are used Advaita Vedanta is an orthodox school. There have been groups of Hindus who have accepted Advaita as orthodox since the days of Gaudapada and Shankara if not much earlier, and we know this from the fact that they have a continuous presence in the Sanskrit and other Indian literature from Shankara onwards, Advaita has had temples and centers of teaching located all around India for many centuries attended by Hindus and there is documentation of this in the literature from the period.

Examples of their influence are numerous. The naked or loincloth clad armed 'Naga' ascetics who became known for armed resistance to the Mughals and Muslim bandits and who participated in many battles of the late medieval period all for the most part belonged to one specific sub-group of the Dashnami Sampradaya Advaita tradition, and this remains true of the remaining Naga monks in India today. The author of the most widely used Mahabharata commentary in Sanskrit studies was a 17th century Advaitin Chaturdhara. The 14th century Advaitin Vidyaranya was the kingmaker, patron saint and high priest to the founders of the Vijayanagara Empire, and the capital of it had a temple dedicated to him.

>vadiraja refuted shankara btw
I've read his arguments and explained why they are wrong on /lit/ before, somebody once replied to me about this trying to dispute it but stopped participating in the discussion quickly once I had clarified what my argument exactly was. if you'd like to summarize Vadiraja's arguments or post them here I can once again explain the error they make.
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>>18175408
>Siddhanta itself is supposed to be descended from kashmir shaivism
As I understood it Siddhanta was a dualist Shaivite theology that was developed out of the earlier dualist Pashupata Shaivism movement, somewhat before Kashmir Shaivism, and that Kashmir Shaivism viewed itself as superceding the previous dualistic Shaivism while integrating and inheriting certain teachings from them, to arrive at what the Kashmir Shaivites held to be a superior kind of non-dualism. The type of Shaiva Siddhanta that the Hawaii monastery follow appears however to be a rarer sub-type of it that follows a non-dual or qualified non-dualist type of Shaiva Siddhanta theology which evidently arose later than the more common dualist form of it. I could be wrong though.
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>>18177291
The fact she is blessed doesn't mean anything. κεχαριτωμένη means highly favored, and even if it would mean "full of grace" and we wanted to interpret it in the sense of the immaculate conception, then what everyone said woul still apply, that she has been purified of the consequences of the original fall, but after her conception, or else she would be divine by nature.

Instead, it is pretty clear that the Virgin mary was a creature. KJV, luc 1, 28-38 :
>28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

>29 And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

>30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

>31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

>32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

>33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

>34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

>35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

>36 And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

>37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

>38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.



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