>The Odyssey is like so dumb. Odysseus has sex with like a ton of girls but he's going to kill Penelope if she's not faithful? That's not very feminist, Ody. You got some learnin' to do.>Now for today's thought bubble: a little tiny Lysistrata figurine. Oh Homer, we can't possibly hold you accountable for not being a feminist in ancient Greece, after all, it's not like feminism existed back then, oh wait, it totally did, you misogynist pig. >Back to the Odyssey: is Penelope the true hero of the story? Yes. Yes she is. That's all we have time for today, be sure to like and subscribe and buy tickets to my new movie: The Da Vinci Code with Teenagers. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MS4jk5kavy4&t=7m15s
>>12184423>Thought it was a parody of JG>Watch the vid>It's fucking realWew lad
>>12184423Why the fuck does the Odyssey and the Iliad matter in our modern society? 2000 year old ancient Greek fag myths are not relevant today. John Green is correct. Our understanding and appreciation of modern values such as equality is much more humane than any ancient ideals. And I know this post will be considered bait and flamed, but I say this sincerely. This site is full of echo chamber faggots constantly trying to feel superior to normal people through weird stuff. >hey, I have a normal life with a lot of friends, good job, cute girlfriend, baby on the way, and I appreciate that I live in the most modern society in the history of mankind. >4chan brainlet -REEEEEEE have you read Aristophanes in the original Greek thoughIt doesn't matter. Modern values such as science is what will drive humanity forward. And John Green novels are much more relevant to the modern condition than any Ionian fag's musings
>>12184423He is not wrong.I can tell you that for all the women/girls that I know who have read it, Homer's stuff is just one continuous exercise in demoralization and belittlement. I wish people would stop holding it up as some pinnacle of literature when it is so obviously outdated, both from a socio-political one and just basic literary theory point of view. The only reaspn people even still read is because of "le ancient texts".The Odyssey is an old tome that ought to have dissolved in the furnace of time and has absolutely nothing to offer the modern reader. It is not applicable to modern life at all and it only hurts half of the population who want to engage in the subject of reading.John Green may be a ditz, but he is right in his assessment of the odyssey.
I can tell you that for all the women/girls that I know who have engaged in it, penetrative sex is just one continuous exercise in demoralization and belittlement. I wish people would stop holding it up as some pinnacle of sexual experience when it is so obviously outdated, both from a sensual one and just basic orgasm theory point of view. The only reaspn people even still engage in it is because of "le penis".Penetrative sex is an old tradition that ought to have dissolved in the furnace of time and has absolutely nothing to offer the modern aesthete. It is not applicable to modern life at all and it only hurts half of the population who want to engage in sex.
I can tell you that for all the women/girls that I know who have participated in it, monogamous marriage is just one continuous exercise in demoralization and belittlement. I wish people would stop holding it up as some pinnacle of romantic relationships when it is so obviously outdated, both from a socio-political one and just basic sexual theory point of view. The only reaspn people even still do it is because of "le commitment".Monogamy is an old form of union that ought to have dissolved in the furnace of time and has absolutely nothing to offer the modern lover. It is not applicable to modern life at all and it only hurts half of the population who want to engage in romance.
One the greatest works of art produced by man and his reading of of it ultimately boils down to; "this is sexist and antiquated according to my modern, liberal, materialist standards". Imagine being this spiritually stunted.
>>12184549What the fuck do you define anything as art? This post is art
>>12184423this is fucking abominable
>>12184467I don't really know where to start to be honest. If you genuinely believe the "modern values" such as "science" and "equality" to be of such enormous worth that we have nothing to learn from the past, then you genuinely deserve the horrors that are to come. Enjoy your bourgeois bubble and pray that you never have to interact with reality outside of it, because things are pretty awful out there.
>>12184582Your copy of the Odyssey didn't create the internet.
>>12184549>muh spiritualityhuh, that's weird. I didn't realize it was 344 CE
>>12184467>>12184478You see, when sane people who appreciate art and human genius witness a pathetic sniveling cuck like J.Green criticize a towering genius of Homer in a snarky, holier-than-thou manner, the natural reaction here is that of revulsion, and second-hand shame. Ultimately, this is the cause, in case you were truly wondering. A nu-male's barking at one of the greatest achievements of human thought in a distasteful, self-aggrandizing attempt to appear "woke" plays a tune on the nerves of those who still bear some respect for history and it's greats. The rampant politicization and dismantling of "old art" is a fool's errand an a poor man's way of critique, perfectly described in a sci-fi short story "Day Million" - few thousand years from now, people will look at John Green's novels (assuming this trash is even remembered) and consider them barbarous and unbearable. So I guess John Green should shut up and stop writing, he's no better than that misogynist Homer!
>>12184592No, a government military project intent on creating a more effective communications network in the case of a nuclear war did.Your copy of Harry Potter or whatever inane and boring bullshit you read not only "didn't create the internet" but also apparently didn't challenge any of your beliefs in any meaningful enough way to inspire thought.
>OLD WORK BAD BECAUSE OF MY CONTEMPORARY OPINIONSYikes
>>12184467why is "equality" important
"Young adult" "literature" is a contradiction in terms.
>This entire threadMass literacy was a mistake.
>>12184614Why exactly is reading the Odyssey so important? Is it more important than scientific knowledge? And why is it more important in any way than any Harry Potter or john Green novel? It achieves the same effect, it makes some people who read it feel good for a while.
>>12184629Because not everybody is 17 and still stuck in their nihilistic phase. Equality is important because it is logical.
>>12184467>>12184478Honestly, I’m on board with a lot of what both of you have to say. There’s so little one can find in a great many texts that have been canonized and exalted to this position of extramundane unimpeachability, and yes still we stand as idolaters before them as before gods. And why? Simply because we’re too scared to break free of the same traditions and routines of the cult of Eurocentrism into which we have been initiated. I for one plan on raising my wife’s sons to look with skeptical eyes upon all inherited traditions and norms. They won’t end up like their asshole father, who still haunts the house I bought and paid for like a poltergeist while I’m away on business. He doesn’t respect my wife, her lines, her limits, any of it. She tells him it’s over, and you’d think the ring on her finger would reinforce that message with the clarity of a glittering diamond, but no, he still finds reason after reason to stay the night, “keeping watch over the kids”, and my wife and I have both had it. And that’s just the kind of toxicly masculine figure the old ancients pedestallized. Humanity will be much better off when brutes like that are culled utterly from its genetic inheritance. And they will be soon, believe you me.
>>12184666And why is it "logical"?
>>12184669A good post.
>>12184666>Equality is important because it is logical.Y I K E S
>>12184666>equality is logicalOh no, it's retarded
>>12184601>X is bad because the year is Y where Y=present year I thought this meme died?
We are entering some high level ironic shitposting
>>12184653Dude. I don't like when people say this, but you really need to go back. Literature isn't about your liberal nihilistic hedonism. Literature is about appreciation for the logos in all of it's forms and beauty. Sure, reading makes you feel good for a little while sometimes, but if you're reading solely for the sake of feeling good and not gaining anything from it (whether it be new ways of thinking about problems or new ways of understanding others) then there isn't much of a point to you being here. Genuinely, go to /r/books or something, they will be more than happy to entertain your vapid and hedonistic approach there.
>>12184676What is ethical is what is logical. As long as treating someone equally is logical, they should be treated equally.
>>12184700What do you mean by treating someone equally? Under the law all people having equal rights? Or something more specific?
>>12184700Please provide your proof for the claim "equality is logical".
>>12184467>reeeeI heard veterans like it because it speaks to their experience and psychology
>>12184699So in your opinion the best literature is the one that educates, rather than entertains? Your favorite novel must be some peer reviewed scientific journal, no?
>>12184467Kill yourself John Green. I'm absolutely serious. I know it is you writing this, just end it all you fucking fraud.
>>12184679>>12184684>>12184691>>12184692>>12184703Just rephrasing what Weininger said, logic and ethics are one. When he says it he is a genius, I guess because it's straight out of the mouth of the misogynistic incel. I can appreciate something from him even though I disagree with his main propositions.
>>12184718I've read a few scientific journals for my job (primarily Nature, Cell, and Science) and I can tell you I learned more about what it means to be alive and what it means to be a human by reading literature than any biology text. Science has its uses but it is anchored within a liberal arts tradition that needs literature to fill out it's weltanshauung.
>>12184726> oh wow when he says it he's a genius but when i say it i'm just a dumb troll on a finnish symphonic power metal fan siteyou getting around to a point?
>>12184726logic is a set of premises and a conclusionYou can argue the conclusion that "quality is good" and "hierarchy is good", just by switching around some premises. Just because something is logically valid (i.e all the premises compel you to accept the conclusion) doesn't mean that it is true. People can have different axioms.
>>12184718Come on, he didnt say that
>>12184666666 is right. Its time to end the death gap in the name of equality.
>>12184735Ok, learning what it means to "be alive" is not information in the scientific sense. To John greens target audience, his novels are just as poignant as anything homer wrote. That's why art is subjective.
>>12184745He knows that already, anon. He's just baiting.
>>12184666Equality as it is known today essentially means ignoring differences rather than acknowledging them/acting in accordance with them, mostly motivated by emotional biases like the slave morality and fallacies like criticising the idea of hierarchies only to invert the preexisting ones and thinking that judgements themselves are unethical. Certainly not a logical thing.
>>12184467Your problem is that you read art through a modern academic’s lens, seeking according to the popular analytic paradigm for how a given work of art conforms or fails to conform to modern liberal ideology and “values”. Although art has always performed the function of articulating and to some extent indirectly promoting a certain set of ethical and moral values, a certain ideology, a certain orientation towards life and others, that is not primarily what art is and it is the “values” embodied in a work of art are not what make that art great. The aesthetic meterstick measures according to criteria that has absolutely nothing to do with values. This is why there are so many universally acknowledged “great” works of art that crystallize radically different societal values. A work of art becomes and remains canonical not because it reinforces heteronormative phallogocentric patriarchy and operates as a tool of indoctrination for the ruling class. It holds strong through the estimations of successive generations because it says things about the human experience that transcend more grounded questions of “values”, and because it’s execution is, on aesthetic terms, qualitatively superior to the execution of those works of art that history consigns to oblivion.
I can tell you that for all the organisms that I know who have engaged in it, breathing is just one continuous exercise in demoralization and belittlement. I wish people would stop holding it up as some pinnacle of living when it is so obviously outdated, both from a sensual one and just basic resperational theory point of view. The only reaspn people even still engage in it is because of "le lungs".Breathing is an old tradition that ought to have dissolved in the furnace of time and has absolutely nothing to offer the modern aesthete. It is not applicable to modern life at all and it only hurts half of the population who want to engage in respiration.
>>12184753You've got to be baiting. I cannot believe that anyone can be genuinely this myopic while also so convinced of their own intelligence.
>>12184758No everyone is certainly not equal. But equal treatment is necessary as long as it is logical. Those biased are exactly what must be avoided because they are illogical. Whether they may be used to that someone equally when they deserve "unequal" treatment and vice versa. John Locke, the founding fathers et all explain this well>>12184761I agree with you up to a point. Art does indeed not deserve to be treated only on the basis of what values it espouses- there are other things that one can appreciate. And certainly the Odyssey and the Iliad have content which can be appreciated from an artistic standpoint. But that's all it is, art. Criticizing its moral values is not a critique on the artwork itself.>>12184757Why is any opinion that disagrees with the majority considered bait? It's so condescending that you consider any effort post with a lot of yous bait and fail, rather fear to engage with it critically. For shame.
>>12184761>it says things about the human experience that transcend more grounded questions of “values”There's nothing less grounded than values, you insufferable pseud. Aesthetics is the only thing that matters in art.
>>12184771Not an argument.
>>12184793No shit it's not an argument. I'm calling you dumb.
>>12184807OK so tell me what is it about the iliad that is so edifying? The fact that Achilles is a murderer, pillager and probable rapist? Achilles in short, is a hero and taps into a need that most of us have to worship and admire. baseball and American football players play a similar role in modern society, so what is so special about him?
>>12184790We’re talking about values in the sense of modern liberal values regarding, say, the treatment of women. A writer’s capacity for plotting, for pacing, for using figurative language in creative ways, for creating realistic and engaging characters, and for speaking about universal themes that stand outside of questions of sociopolitical ideology are not reducible to his “values”.
>>12184823It's a story about Achille's path back to being human.If you can't interpret this from the text, then I've got bad news for you
>>12184823Imagine being so devoid of substance that your heroic role models are illiterate football players. The stories of the Illiad/Oddessy/Beowulf etc. are stories of conquest against the trials of the world. Your blind materialism is giving you an experience that lacks in value.If you cannot understand Achilles journey towards humanity and meaning then you might as well stop reading anything beyond pop garbage because it's a waste of your time.
>>12184601did you skip all the XXth century literature about the same theme?
>>12184823its a story about forgiveness its clear by the ending
>>12184872They are just as heroic, if not more, because they face real problems, not make believe ones.
hes basically right but that being your entire takeaway from the odyssey is stupid
>>12184881You realize that Africans in the US live the best life that any Africans have ever lived in the history of Africans right?
>>12184891As Milton saidBetter to live in hellThan to serve in heaven
>>12184897You know they can always go back right? American blacks are allowed to "repatriate" to Ghana and Liberia, both of which have very similar constitutions to the United States (Liberia being almost identical in founding documentation).They don't have to stay here if they are so unsatisfied with what white society has provided for them.
>attacking a guy who may or may have not lived 2500 years ago for not agreeing with particular brand of politics of your countryBased!Next John is going to tell me Hitler is a dumdum.
>>12184907Wasn't there a movement in the 70's or 80's with Malcolm X which was exactly about this? Moving back to Africa? It's not so simple though, you know that perfectly well. And the average person would rather prefer servitude in comfort to freedom in pain. Doesn't make it better though.
If past art has no value since it has no value to you (At least, from what you currently perceive), than what value does art have at all?
>>12184881Is this really one of the best heros the 21st century has?
>>12184699>appreciation of logosW R O N GGood literature is dionysian you cuck
>>12184666Equality is the exact opposite of logical. Men and women are radically different and this should be reflected in social customs and under the law.
>>12185121Well, OK. But what are “men” and “women”, then?
>>12184467The Odyssey is actually pretty cool in that, structurally, it's identical to a serialized story. It's a bunch of little episodes that wrap up but also move the overall plot forward. It's like an ancient origin of TV show structure. Pretty neat.
I can tell you that for all the women/girls that I know who have participated in it, piss and shit play is just one continuous exercise in demoralization and belittlement. I wish people would stop holding it up as some pinnacle of romantic relationships when it is so obviously outdated, both from a socio-political one and just basic sexual theory point of view. The only reaspn people even still do it is because of "le taboo".Piss and shit play is an old form of love making that ought to have dissolved in the furnace of time and has absolutely nothing to offer the modern lover. It is not applicable to modern life at all and it only hurts half of the population who want to engage in intercourse.
>>12184881>nigger who gets paid for running around in plastic armor>at 30 years old has over 10 times more wealth than average american generates in a lifetime>his "problem" is others not condoning him publicly and willingly insulting the very nation and institution that allowed him to live in such conditionsI hope this was bait.
>classical literature is worthless and not worth preserving because I can only read it through my modern historical context which finds ancient greek society "disagreeable"this reasoning is fucking retarded I'm sorry
>>12184516please get laid so i don't have to read your posts
>>12184423>digging out a 6 year old video for no reason other than to stir shit upyikes>people agreeing with John Green ITTdouble yikes
>>12184560That would be deep if you were the first one to post that.
>>12184423He doesn't understand arete what a fucking retard. He doesn't understand force what a fuckimg retard. Jesus this guy is an author? He doesn't even try to learn the material.
>>12184666>Equality is important because it is logical.You have some explaining to do. How are different people the same? That looks like a contradiction to me.
>>12185285Equality is important because it is new. And based on the immutable laws of Progress™, what is new is good and what is old is bad.
>>12185125A miserable little pile of secrets. But enough talk, HAVE AT YOU!
What did I think I would get from a thread like this? Serious discussion about the Odyssey? Critique of John Green's analysis style? Nah senpai, screeching sexist and so1boy is much more important.
>>12184789Why is equal treatment logical? How far does that equality extend? Women? Children? The mentally disabled? Animals?
>>12185357>What did I think I would get from a thread like this?A brief moment of smug self-important satisfaction as you deride posters for not delving into topics you'd like to discuss, while completely avoiding to meaningfully contribute on them yourself.
>>12184601>CEneck yourself you lizardthe current year is 2119 ANNO REX
>>12185405Anno Regis And what king are you talking about
Is the Rieu translation okay?
>>12185089Sure Neech. If you say so.
>>12184467The problem with this video is that Mr. Green is judging a work of literature with modern ideology. Any actual scholar could tell you that this is absolutely wrong. All the adventures and the characters in the Odyssey come from their time, which is about three thousand years ago, and one can't give an ethical judgment complaining about "patriarchy", for the poem was written in a patriarchist society. When Mr. Green says that Odysseus is the first charachter with post-traumatic stress disorder, he is again applying to an ancient poem our chriteria of judgment. The ethics of that time were based on honour. It was not only normal but also right that Odysseus wanted to kill the people who violated his house and authority. Now, pt.2, you do not understand that literature of all time is an instrument that mankind uses to discover itself. That means that every story is a contemporary story, all the myths, novels, poems, all is happening at the same time because it speaks to us now, it makes us discover our identity. Without literature, mankind would be absolutely nothing, just another animal with a more complicated language. Every single piece of literature is relevant to our condition, mine as much as yours. If you think science is a value, I am afraid that you don't understand that science is only an instrument to achieve something. It doesn't give knowledge, because it can only describe how things work. Science is a form of language that men use to describe and explain the world around them, but doesn't directly speak to men. Science can't give any real knowledge because men apply their logic to the facts, but the facts have no inherent logic. Literature is what gives mankind a soul, because through literature an individual discovers his self. Without literature, mankind is only a mass of people with no will nor free thinking, waiting for someone smarter to tell them what to believe. By refusing literature, you are giving up your free thinking and begging someone to have control over you and mercilessly fuck you in the ass doggystyle
>>12184423Who is this man ?
>>12185569David foster Wallace
>>12185575i can never unsee this
>>12184653People aren't born with an identity. They have to build one through suffering and feeling all aspects of human experience. Literature is what defines you. Harry Potter is an insanely good y.a. book, but if you only read Harry Potter you won't be nothing more than a young adult. If you only read thing that don't stretch and stimulate your mind, you shall forever be mindless.
>>12184423I just speed-read one of his books. It had footnotes and math and quirky precocious kids. It was gay dfw fan fiction basically. A couple of genuinely funny parts though and a decent argument for accepting one’s mediocrity. 4/10. Would recommend to my low iq little sister. I should say that I read it in a foreign language to practice though so it might not be as good in English.
>>12185569The Cereal Cuck
>>12184423Hated this guys since my 8th grade history teacher started playing his shit in classI could smell his weakness then and I can still see it now
>>12184423I had a chance to fuck John Green’s wife about two years ago but I turned her down because I was going through a serious thot patrol phase at the time. But seeing this post makes me wish I had wrecked his home.
>>12184669My heart says this is memery but my brain just doesn't know anymore. Is this the power of the 4chanel?Either way, it's bait and I'm ashamed for having replied.
>>12185685I mean its ok he would still enjoy her whole-grain crunch
>>12184881Your bait is weak and so are you.
>>12185704It’s really obvious bait and very funny too.
>>12184467Gay retarded nigger
>>12185565>Science can't give any real knowledge because men apply their logic to the facts, but the facts have no inherent logic.
Dear Desu,Homer would go on to inspire Virgil, and Virgil would go on to inspire the world.
>>12184478>have dissolved in the furnace of timeThe worst thing about this post is this cringe-tier metaphor.
>>12184467I'll admit it now, I did it for the yous
>>12184582This desu. Pretty soon the rangers are going to die off and leave the Shire unprotected.
>>12184467The only way to understand the present is to look to the past. It allows you to look past the fleeting trends that will be gone tomorrow, and get to the root of human nature.
Start with the Greeks.
>>12185318Really the best post in this thread.
Help me out,anons. I'm presuming that some of you have read 'The Rape Of The Lock' by Alexander Pope. The text is overtly misogynistic, yes, but it was also written in early 18th century. So, will that make the author 'a misogynist'? I am not saying that I would appreciate the text less if the author would be a misogynist, or a bigot, but it wouldn't deny the fact at the core, right? Thanks
>>12184423>Odysseus has sex with like a ton of girls but he's going to kill Penelope if she's not faithful?Sure, he's the male hero, double standards blah blah. But note those women were more powerful than him, so he had no choice but to have sex with them. Of course the attitude today would be "dude sex lmao" so it won't be seen as a bad thing, but there was certainly an emasculating aspect to it that was repugnant to Greeks (which is misogynist in its own right but w/e).Regardless, Odysseus remained devoted to Penelope. He chose his aging, moral wife in his dinky kingdom over beautiful, immortal women in paradise. He did this while it was completely reasonable to believe she had moved on without him. This is paralleled by Penelope remaining devoted to a husband she could have reasonably believed was never going to return home. That is love, senpai.
>>12184467>lol, why do you people read Homer? He's not even christian, this work of "art" contributes to a culture of sinful heathen practices that are a thing of the past. Now we live in the age of our lord jesus christ and renounce such barbarous lack of morals - throw it on the fire with Aristotle's dialogues!A thousand years later and you still do this shit?
>>12184467Ted Kaczynski was right
>>12186882Which is exactly why it's so important to learn history, because it's always the same patterns of shit over and over with better technology, as human nature never changes. And reading texts written at certain times is part of this, as it shows you the values and culture of people at that time.
>>12184669You are absolutely pathetic
>>12184789I think your sense of "logic" comes from more profound moral code or sentiment that most people in today's time have (atleast in the west).If i was a complete egoist with no sentiments on others, then it would be considered "logical" for me to screw them over for my own good.That is why these terms of "logic" are relative.Im no pro at this philosophy thing, there are anons that should know a lot more than me.
>>12184478He is very wrong. In Greek culture, it was perfectly normal for a married man to have sex with other women. For example, in the Odyssey, the big thing that comes to mind is Calypso and her trapping Odysseus on the island for 7 years. That have sex frequently, but Odysseus never gives his heart to her, so eventually, Hermes (I think) made her let him go. He never loved her, and that seems to be what you fail to understand. To the Greeks, sex isn't the same as love.
>>12187511Yeah but that’s a perfect manifestation of patriarchy. Men get to run around and fuck their film and women have to wait home chaste and obedient
>>12186433Historical accounts of Pope's life do not reinforce the idea that "The Rape of the Lock" is misogynistic. Most of Pope's closest friends were female and he tended to support his female friends more than his male friends. In fact, due to his short stature and the fact that he had to wear what is essentially a girdle due to his back problems, he was overtly feminized in contemporary accounts and had trouble in homosocial spheres. From what I understand of Pope criticism, people tend to think of the poem as satirical. Pope is satirizing material culture as it plays out in the relationship between men and women rather than blatantly criticizing the women.
>>12184423Gun fact, Homer is actually short for homersexual, no wonder he was such a woman-hater
>>12187517Nö shit - but take a look at this >>12187490.Through the mirror of history we can learn from our past and though there are some things we do better now, there's still a lot to learn from the ol' Greeks - and the things we don't know is much more important to worry about than the things that we know.
>>12184478>I can tell you that for all the women/girls Femanon here, and not all women are as retarded as you seem to be and some of us don't read literature for moral lessons.Fuck, I can't imagine thinking like this. I'd have to throw out most of my favourite literature for not aligning perfectly with my own views or for not moralising about the questionable behaviour of their characters. This is exactly why it's important to read old texts, to see and understand how fleeting certain cultural standards are and how little they matter in that they'll be washed away by time soon enough. People should to be exposed to different cultures to see that the values of their time and culture are not universal or special.
>>12187517Yep that's how it was back then. An whats the deal with that? Is that a reason to not praise a work of literature?Its stupid to ignore history because it hurts our feelings. History serves the porpuse to understand and learn from the past. Ignoring truth for the sake of confort is dumb imo.That piece of literature was considered great for that time. It required a lot more thought and work to produce than most half ass shit writer's do. That is why it is praised, because of the historical setting and what it represents.
>>12187530Here’s a fun fact: I’ve got you in my sniper scope, say your prayers.
>>12184614>>12184807I know you posted this ten hours ago but holy shit you ruined this dude hahahahahahahahahahhaha
When you reach supreme artistic mastery you will trigger ignorant liberal doofuses for generations. Based Homer. Yes, he existed and was one man. I will not be reading replies.
>>12187558You go grrrrrrrrrl!
>>12187561This is ironic. You meant to say fun fact and said gun fact. I meant to say gun fact and said fun fact. Well, time to kill myself (with a gun)
>>12184467>values such as scienceMaximum bait
>>12187586It’s a LARP.
>>12184823Aaaaaaaah dem keks! I'm crying!
>>12184933So you've just contradicted yourself, if you agree with the Milton statement.
>poster says "women do/think x">"actually, I'm living proof that's wrong">retards on /lit/ REEEE like there's snake among themI suppose I'm the real retard for still bothering.>>12187590Didn't realise /lit/ was a super secret website that women couldn't access.
>>12187634You are better off not even telling you are a woman and just argue that is not how it works or ignore it. While i agree that there are a majority of retards that refuse to argue because of that. Painting everyone here with the same brush is just as stupid.
>>12184423John Green is a great inspiration to me. He leads by bad example. He is everything I want to avoid. He is the kind of intellectual zombie that I could have become if I had taken just a few wrong turns.
>>12187683>>12187683>Painting everyone here with the same brush is just as stupid.That was my point about making generalisations about women. And I said "retards on /lit/" not /lit/ in general to avoid doing the same. I wouldn't post here if it were just retards.>>12187683>You are better off not even telling you are a womanI post here a lot and almost never do. I usually just ignore the /r9k/esque "women are bitches and whores" threads, but in cases when people claim "women do/think x about literature" I can't help it sometimes just my existence is proof of how wrong they are.
>>12184467Are you fucking kidding me
Green is infinitely more intelligent than this board and you guys will never compare to him and his achievements.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yi1RHrDtMsk&index=3&t=0s&list=LLlgCIZkQM3njDrrhtg2uXeg
>>12187634It’s not that there aren’t women here it’s that there are no women here who think that way, dingbat.
>>12187760This is just an advanced way of saying "post tits or gtfo" isn't it, because that's the only way to prove my point.
>>12184467If they don't matter in our society why the fuck does he talk about them lmao
>>12187741Eh, guess you are right.Sometimes i dont even know how can anyone from the female gender browse this place without having a major stroke from time to time.Would love to browse a /r9k/ equivalent for women, to see the kind of stuff they would say. Too bad.
>>12187804I've spent years lurking on all sorts of weird corners of the internet with people vehemently hating every group in existence - women, men, white people, black people, dogs - I'm pretty numb to most of it by now, but ever so often I get frustrated. But despite not being male, I get similarly frustrated at "men are all scum" posts sometimes.>Would love to browse a /r9k/ equivalent for women, to see the kind of stuff they would say. Too bad.Nah, got you there. Go over to lolcowfarm and the /g/ or /ot/ boards.
>>12187804Go to Tumblr desu
>>12187804To prove my point, literally the first page
>>12184700>>12184666>>12184467"Equality" is spiteful, envious and deceitful. It is sacrificing one of your sheep to kill two of your neighbour's. In the modern ideology of equality there is nothing that will make the world better.
>>12187830>Go over to lolcowfarm and the /g/ or /ot/ boards.Yeah i know the existence of those boards. But i heard the mods literally ban everyone that says its male. Also the board is slow af. Most threads are months old.>>12187832Cant even bother. The site will be dead after the nsfw update anyway.>>12187835Jesus crist, this is fantastic. A exact copy of most of /r9k/. Do they also have feel threads? Do they also feel lonely, craving for intimacy like some robots do with women? Or is it just pure fucking hate towards men?Never thought this could be real, not at this point of having men-hate threads. Are they incels aswell?
>>12187517Yeah but if you can't appreciate the mutual devotion, that's just sad.
>>12184478>>12184467>>12184666>>12184669>>12184726what the absolute fuck is going on in this thread? You troglodytes better be baiting.
>>12187870>>12187870Yeah, it's quite slow but it's really startling how similar it is to the male chans in ways.>Do they also feel lonely, craving for intimacy like some robots do with women?Yes. They actually often complain about being unable to get along or fit in with with other women, besides desiring female friendship above all.I've also seen some pretty fucking creepy confessions concerning stalking (both men and women).>Are they incels aswell?There are both femcels and sluts. Don't think I've seen much hate between them though there's much cattiness about other topics.
>>12184666But nobody is actually equal. Thats called cloning.
>>12187987>identical twins don't exist
>>12187558basedNow get off this website.
>>12188007Turn off the computer, go outside.
>>12188007>>12188013Meet each other, fall in love
>>12188013I read it like>How do I get off this website
>>12187558show me your fucking tits
>>12188105if you can get doubles I'll do it
>>12188120Dubs are reserved for more important issues
>>12187588Wow thank you Peter Griffin from the long-running hit television cartoon Family Guy
>>12187996They aren't actually identical.
>>12184823He is all that.The plot progression is how he becomes that (Odysseus deception, Agamemnon mismanagement, Death of his buttbuddy, etc) and what restores him to sanity (the appearance of Priam, kingtroy, alone unarmed, to collect hector's body from the greeks).No one seriously worships archilles for being brad pitt anon.
>>12184897Noo, as Miltons Satan said. Not the same thing.Given Milton's intro intent of "Justifying God's ways to man", Satan's sentiment is epicly wrong.
>>12185089This didacticism itself is Appollonian. You are not convincing.
>>12184467Based and greenpilled
>>12188741Sounds cool though
>>12188797That it does. No doubt.
>>12184467>trying to feel superiorI don't have to try, after reading your post.
Playing either/or with modern sensibilities and an ancient epic poem is so fucking retarded that every john greenlike should willingly castrate himself to create the new slave class
>>12184467>I live in the most modern societyNow THIS is a strange statement.
>>12184592and the polarisation caused by the Internet is literally pushing wealthy nations closer and closer to civil war.
>>12184423He really thinks that women and men behave the same about sex? Why is he allow to poison our youth?
>>12188840Good. Looking forward to finally being able to #eattherich.
someone post the image where the guy said he wanted to rape john green
>>12189035because he's a virgin
>>12184478>I can tell you that for all the women/girlsthis reasoning is the biggest crock of shit. do those women have the totality of female experience contained within themselves? Of course not. It's like when someone says "as an African reading Heart of Darkness, I say it's a racist book," as if they speak for all africans, as if africans were unable to have different opinions than the speaker, as if it's even possible to divide the realm of ideas down intersectional lines. Any argument that uses identity as a crutch like this is trashHaven't read the illiad or oddysey but this thread is full of a lot of plebeian opinions. It's insultingly reductive to reduce a work of art to its ephemeral political and sociocultural concerns. (any work of art, really, unless it's been written directly in response to or as an extension of modern intersectional, Marxist, feminist .etc. methods for understanding literature. )If you need to do this to understand a text you shouldn't be reading, or, at the very least, you shouldn't be mouthing off about what you read. Every time you do it actively hinders those who seek the higher expressions of which the arts are possible.
>>12184467Have a well deserved (you) for this bait.
>>12184601>le current year>ceApply yourself.
>>12184700you cant derive ethics from logic alone, you need to expand your point a bit more
>>12185405>>12189281Every academic source uses CE...
>>12189331Unless you're pulling a direct quote, don't encourage academics to continue raping culture.
>>12188251They're as identical as clones, which was my point.
>>12189242>Haven't read the illiad or oddysey>but I'll open my stupid yapYikes
>>12184423>implying Patroclus is Achilles' sexual loverRREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>12184423Is John Green an accurate representation of burger education?Even as a 16 year old (so the target age group) when I watched a few of his crash course world history videos, I felt it was dumbed down history compared to what we were learning in A Level History (UK) and felt too old for it. We didn't cover much history in terms of time periods in school, but went into much greater depth. From about the age of 12, it wasn't "this thing happened" but "why and how this thing happened" and a lot of the subject was to do with discussing different sources and their merits and weaknesses. Going by his videos, American history feels really dumbed down in comparison.
>>12184423This is the cuckiest face I’ve seen in some time.
>>12184666>equality is logical
>>12189550Shakespeare has quite an amusing subtle depiction of them as a couple in Troilus, Patroclus always following at Achilles’ heel’s like a big bottom dog
>>12184423Every time I see this fag I wanna draw him, so today's that day
>>12184726If you have are a king and have so much power that nobody could overthrow you and you could live forever there are two paths you can take. One is the logical one of maximising your benefit by making everyone subservient to you so you face no harm or pain. The other is the ethical one of abandoning your power and rejoining your fellow man.
>>12189646Why is abandoning the throne the ethical choice? What if being an all powerful king is more ethical than abdicating the throne to a tyrant?
>>12189638Nice, anon. Nice
>>12189638Haha cool. Saved for future threads.
>>12189706There is no transfer of power. It's just gone.
>>12189718If we take the ethical choice to serve the maximum amount of people (let's not get into why this is true because this is the trolley problem), then you can only do this when you have maximum power. The logical choice is the ethical choice.
>>12184666Go home satan, you're drunk.
>>12184423>Fuck The Iliad and Odyssey>Now, The Fault in our Stars! That's a book.Does he not understand how he's coming off?
>>12184467>modern values such as equality>Modern values such as scienceChoose one.
>>12184700This is it, you have to be trolling. Define equality then, if it is so logical. Equality of opportunity? The thing that already exist in the majority of countries? Or equality of outcome, which is partially responsible for close to 100 million deaths? You're edgy, on some sort of moral high horse while still being willfully ignorant about his own clearly naive opinion.
>>12187890They’re discord trannies.
>>12184653>Is it more important than scientific knowledge?>Are carbohydrates more important than protein?They complete each other idiot. Also what scientific knowledge? You're insecurely vague about your arguments. Scientific knowledge as in what's empirically deductible? One could easily argue there are equally important subjects which aren't. Your so called "equality is important and logical" hasn't been empirically observed anywhere to be "logical" or even "important" for that matter. It's metaphysics.
>>12184726>Weininger geniusYou're quality content for a mediocre sitcom damn.
>>12184423Isn't this the guy who likes cock in his cheerios
>>12187517>a perfect manifestation of patriarchy.You've completely lost it. Don't believe in fairy tales.
>>12186811in scroll VI princess Nausicaa has thoughts of being with odysseus but he doesn't go for it.When I first saw him I thought him plain, but now his appearance is like that of the gods who dwell in heaven. I should like my future husband to be just such another as he is, if he would only stay here and not want to go away.even when they first meet he is extremely cautious and mentions Artemis
>>12184423I cant argue that John green videos are hit or miss, but that one where he queried Dodie as to the state of his spodie was powerful and life affirming.
>>12184467i cant believe the number of ppl who fell for this bait
>>12185158Another bootlicking smoothed brained basement dweller kys.
>>12190674the unique folding patterns of gyri and sulci are closely aligned with genetic ancestry....nogs have smother brains....
>>12189729Abdicating is only ethical if the common man will live virtuous on his own accord.
>>12184423I hate this.
>>12190216Oh hey Jordan! You look cute with that beard.
>>12190725Yet you're acting like boot licking simpleton.
>>12184699"Literature is about..." Got any evidence for that?
>>12184653The Odyssey is the foundation of your culture and the entire western canon. What it means to be a man, what it means to have a family, what it means to be just and right, it all comes from books like The Odyssey. Even if you disagree with what books like The Odyssey and The Iliad say on these matters, that is still a rebuttal to the foundation these book laid.
>>12186811>his dinky kingdom Odysseus came with only twelve ships
>>12190873 refrain thee, and be not minded to strive singly against kings. For I deem that there is no viler mortal than thou...thou shouldst not take the name of kings in thy mouth as thou protest, to cast reproaches upon them, odysseus speaking to thersites you are acting like thersites and if this was irl i would give you a beatdown too
>>12190894Right, wouldn't that make his kingdom pretty dinky? Unless you're going by the UK usage of the word, which doesn't mean "shabby".
>>12190867>Jordan is the only intellectual to have ever talked about equality of opportunity vs outcomeHow new are you?
>>12190937 I will tell you what he had.There are twelve herds of cattle upon the main land, and as many flocks of sheep, there are also twelve droves of pigs, while his own men and hired strangers feed him twelve widely spreading herds of goats. Here in Ithaca he runs even large flocks of goats on the far end of the island, and they are in the charge of excellent goat herds. Each one of these sends the suitors the best goat in the flock every day. As for myself, I am in charge of the pigs that you see here, and I have to keep picking out the best I have and sending it to them."scroll XIVa texas ranch has more livestock than odysseus did.and the dinky i use is just modest not shabby
>>12190949>calling Memerson an "intellectual"
>>12184607There aren't going to be any books or people a few thousand years from now
>>12184423>Loathsome AcademicThis thing is bad because it can't be used to promote my values.>Genius Lit UserBut pretty?
>>12191104What? A published professor from University of Toronto? Whose job is to conduct research? How is that not an intellectual? Nice bait brainlet.
>>12189638lol replace Home with yourself
>>12191081For a man as cunning as Odysseus, he sure as shit didn't put it to good use at home.
>>12184607>You see, when sane people who appreciate art and human genius witness a pathetic sniveling cuck like J.Green criticize a towering genius of Homer in a snarky, holier-than-thou manner, the natural reaction here is that of revulsion, and second-hand shameI find myself filled with the urge to commit an act of defenestration. I mean there comes a point where you realize further communication is pointless and only demeans you, so the only rational response is to wordlessly rise up and throw the speaker out of the window.
>>12185405based and redpilled
>>12187214based and red pilled
>>12184700>As long as treating someone equally is logicalit isn't
>>12184467>Modern values such as science is what will drive humanity forward.
>>12185405>>12185447Fools, it's 2771 Ad Urbe Condita
>>12186433The Rape of the Lock is generally considered a satire
>>12189579Not really, his stuff is for people who went to a bad secondary school or who never paid attention in classes. Also the US doesn't have a common curriculum nationwide, so education quality varies a lot from school to school and state to state.
Thank you for killing a third of my brain cells, anon.
>>12185125XY and XX chomosomes? High testosterone and high oestrogen? Abs and boobs? Without uterus and with uterus? Testicles and ovaries? Penis and vagina? Why is this even a debate? Even if there are exceptions, men and women are not physically equal you high-school dropout.
>>12187558No one cares
>>12184467Masterfully crafted bait. Well done.
>>12184467You kill a cultures myths, no matter how old you kill a culture. Imagine Scandinavia if no one wrote the eddas. Imagine if all the /lit/ of antiquity was destroyed because it was out dated.
>>12187558I don’t know what I expected the replies to be. Even when yours is fully relevant to what we’re discussing here.
>>12184467saving this for future reference based leftypol posters write the best intellectually challenging memes
>>12193768I know I'm late but you're a sneaky one aint cha
Why does John Green keep making similes comparing women to cereal? It's very dehumanizing to women.
>>12194054Did he do that more than once?
What's a conservative estimate for how many miles of pole his wife took?
>>12194068a lot. Just lookatat grin.
>>12184467Best /lit/ bait of the week
>>12184666>>12184700> Equality is important because it is logical.>Why?>What is ethical is what is logical.
>>12184666>>12184700>>12184726>Equality is good because it’s logical>It’s logical because it’s ethical>It’s ethical because it’s logical>If you disagree you’re a virginThis has to be a high quality troll. I refuse to believe someone could unironically make an a argument this purely circular and then call people virgins for disagreeing. Are you parodying the mental dynamics of sheeple who tacitly accept this but never actually lay out how ridiculous the rhetoric is?
>>12184651because people can read, they think just being able to look at a book and put the words together in their minds also gives them the equal ability to comprehend the meaning, and when they can't or when their simplistic interpretation is rejected by others they lash out
>>12194380Actually it's just proof that "logic" and "ethics" are purely insubstantial constructs of the word games that people call philosophy. Objective ethics and logic as presented can only ever be little more than thinly veiled ideological shackles since I could literally state "I think murder is ethical and logical" and you would be incapable of disproving what I said since ultimately all logic and ethics is nothing but a subjective choice.
>>12186811This anon gets it
>>12191081to be fair a modern ranch has industrial production
>>12194068That nose...that grin...look suspiciously familiar
>>12194642Ethics is a spook. Logic is montiroring causation, make of it what you will
>>12195149this is rocky Ithaca, not the best pasture land.
>>12184467imagine being this autistic
>>12184669>my wife's sonsI knew you were trolling at that point.10/10
>>12194642Everything is subjective, anon. That doesn't mean it's meaningless. Ethics are entirely subjective to the person who creates them and you can't rationally prove that they're wrong no matter what those ethics might be, but that doesn't mean we can't have intelligent debate about what ethics should be or how people should act. I can tell you, for instance, that you oughn't murder people because it exploits their (subjective) pain and suffering without ulterior purpose, which is unjust and therefore unethical.
>>12195169Lmao look at the guy that has never studied logic
>>12186811Does he really get forced into sexual intercourse? I really need to read it if true.
>>12184431 reminder for hank & john green P4Ahttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gj7Xif4s8vk
>>12195929yes he gets held against his will for sexual purposes for 8 years
>>12195979odyssey has a scene where odysseus comes down to the beach and weeps thinking of penelope and his fate
>>12184467Based and redpilled
>>12184423>>12184466It literally is a parody you retarded faggot.>>12184423I almost lost it when he thought slaughtering the guys who stole his food in an effort to fuck his wife wasn't justified. I remember their earlier content as being fairly informative, but John seems really fixated on this whole "I want to celebrate women sleeping around," meme. The perpetual nervousness of his voice disgusts me.
>>12188007Based>>12188013Based>>12188019Based>>12187558>Woman's takeaway from the Odyssey is that cultural standards are fleetingGuess how I know you have and were born with a vagina?
>>12188120>>12188200Do it faggot
>>12184669you almost had me
>>12196438>only being able to take away one thing from a piece of literatureI'm sorry you're a brainlet, anon.
kids in history classes actually get assigned this tripe.
>>12184666>Equality is important because it is logical.It isn't though. People aren't equal and shouldn't be treated as equal.
>>12197528individuals are not equalpeople should not be treated unequally based on large categories they belong tothe large Catholic population should understand this concept more than anyone, 90% of the 1 billion Catholics aren't responsible for pedophiles in the church
>>12197551No, they shouldn't not be treated equally. Keep your delusion to your self.
>>12191081>12 Olympians>12 tribes of Israel12 is a religious number, not an accurate accounting.You probably think Moses spent literally 40 years in the desert.
>>12197733How is it religious? What is it's significance?
>>12197733>(((religious number)))fuck off with that gematria
>>12184666Trips confirm /pol/ seething
>>12184467Holy fucking based
>His solution to a bunch of suitors barbecuing his pigs and fucking his maids and attempting to fuck his wife on his property was mass slaughterWhat the fuck else do you expect someone to do in that situation? Pat them on the back, slap them on the wrist and tell them to have a good day?I actually agree with him that it's a prime example of how Greeks thought about how deceptive women are and how it's okay for men to be hypocritical during that cultural region and epoch, but I wish he didn't strangle it with stretched and unintuitive points like this.
>>12185752but it's true, there is literally no knowledge that can ever be gained from Empiricism>but muh internet and technologyNot evidence or an argument.
>>12190433Oh look it's been a month, so how did it go?
>>12197494>Pomo demonstrates inferiority of his method because what I actually meant was not "There is only one takeaway" but instead "The takeaway is the exact opposite of what you are claiming - the reason the Greek ideal persists is because of its confidence with itself, men ascribe to that norm, you are a retard."
>>12184478> just basic literary theory point of viewcan you elaborate? is it no longer a tenet of lit theory that literature is discursive? and that contemporary narrative strategies and motifs are descended from Greek constructions? You can pretty much trace a straight line from the Greeks to now in the development of lit and philosophy. How is understanding arguably the most influential western text not relevant to contemporary literary theory? You couldn't even have your bullshit CRT and queer lit crit without the Greeks.
>>12199485This is no refutation
>>12200449>something cannot show both how we have changed and remained the sameI posted the original post being discussed - of course what was remained the same is important too, as you can get to heart of human nature and behaviour. It's also very different to our current society(ies) in the West, as an honor based society. You can see this in how a lot of modern readers dislike Achilles and prefer Odysseus, when iirc the opposite was apparently true of the Romans who were another honour society.