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It makes me so upset when people talk about how HRT should be a last resort and we should accept ourselves as we are if we can. Especially if they think that we should be prevented from getting it. Screw you. I get to decide what sort of a person I want to be. Not you. Why do you think you have a say over my gender? Over my body? Totalitarian fuckwits. If you don't believe that people's bodies are theirs you don't believe in freedom at all.

Transitioning is not just about escaping from pain, but is also about pursuing one's truest self. It's running toward fulfillment. I don't want to be some other fucking person whether I'm happy or not. I want to be me.
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>>27724408
exactly bicth !!!
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>>27724436
Simple as
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You should have autonomy over yourself but you should also take a moment to realize that medical science can /not/ give you what you actually want at this point. All you're doing is turning your body into a gross mockery of what you desire, and it would be better to learn to live with yourself instead (at least until medicine advances enough).

I have sympathy for your plight, I really do. But part of becoming adult is learning that there are some things you simply can not change, and learning to live with yourself is the best thing you can do.
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>>27724408
Right on
>>27724927
>You should have autonomy over yourself but you should also take a moment to realize that medical science can /not/ give you what you actually want at this point.
We know. That's the cause of dysphoria you fucking idiot.
>All you're doing is turning your body into a gross mockery of what you desire
I'll be the one who decides whether my body is gross or not. The opinion if some random clueless phobe on the other side of earth is irrelevant.
>I have sympathy for your plight, I really do
If you had sympathy you'd listen to our voices. Just fuck off and stop pretending you're some Jordan Peterson substitute parental figure
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>>27724927
What is possible is not what I want, but it's far better to have that than to have nothing at all. People do not live forever, yet we strive to avoid death for as long as we can. People are not perfect, yet we strive to do our best. I am male, but I strive to live as a woman despite of that, getting as close as possible to that ideal. That I can't have everything I want does not mean that I should have nothing, or else humanity's existence is itself a mistake.

I want this, and in any case I am happy to have it, and so I shall pursue it.
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>>27725023
I think that it's very tricky. Some children will grow out of being trans and some will not. We need to make sure that by adulthood each has the sort of body that's right for them. For that reason I think that a blanket ban is misplaced. Instead doctors should work with the children to figure out what's right for them. To try to figure out what sort of a person they'll grow up to be.
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>>27724408
>Why do you think you have a say over my gender?
Gender is merely an opinion. They have their say, you have yours. Quite a different question to whether people should be allowed to take HRT or not.
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100% agree with OP.

The only gatekeeping that is needed would simply be making sure the person is capable of understanding the consequences of their decision.

No different than getting married, joining the military or signing up for a credit card.
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>>27725101
I actually don't disagree with that (though I think there's usually something materially unusual about trans people and that thing is what people are expressing their opinion on). What I meant by that is that people do not have a say in how others lead their gendered lives. They are of course free to hold their own beliefs about gender.
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>>27724408
it's because they self insert and imagine themselves as switching and hate it instead of trying to understand us

>>27725023
>Children has no mental capability to deal with this yet
ok gatekeeper. Children are going through massive dysphoria and misery at puberty due to terfs like you.
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>>27725071
>grow out of being trans
you don't grow out of being trans idiot.. the ones that are forced to cope and try to be normal due to social pressure are what your describing. We're born this way
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>>27725209
Sorry, what I meant by that is that some children who believe themselves to be trans eventually desist.
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>>27724408
in that case stop pretending you have a medical problem and admit transitioning is just the same as any other cosmetic procedure and shouldn't get you any special rights or be paid for by anyone but yourself.
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>>27724408
and it's even more toxic when you realize that the whole point of being trans is that you are not who you are.
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>>27725267
Speaking in terms of what is materially true, I do think trans people typically want what they do because they are biologically unusual in some key ways. So I think it's simply true that a medical problem is often (if not always) involved. However that is not the entire story. Yes, gender dysphoria hurts, but that it hurts is not the sole reason why trans people want to transition.

As for rights.. which ones do you think trans people should not have, if they choose to be as they are?

>>27725278
What do you mean by that?
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>>27725276
Doctors routinely do gatekeep people.
Doesn't your reasoning apply to every condition?
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>>27724408
This is what happens when you accept "political enbies" (aka. not really androgynous people/enbies, just cis people that likes the overall idea of breaking the binary and call themselves enbies).

They start theorizing the most deranged takes, like "HRT is bad, actually", and speak on behalf of the trans community.
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>>27725352
how's that different from any cosmetic procedure?
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>>27725352
>What do you mean by that?
you aren't you. you have the wrong sex that doesn not fit your gender
so it's pointless trying to be happy with who you are if you are not who you are.
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>>27725373
First, it *is* at least partially a cosmetic procedure. You're not entirely off. However it's more like a cosmetic procedure done on someone malformed or disfigured than it is one that is meant to merely enhance a person's beauty. It's corrective. Or, at the very least, it's experienced as corrective.

Second, hormones are not solely cosmetic. They directly affect the mind in certain ways. A lot of boymoders, for instance, report feeling better just by taking them despite not looking any different. This is a story that's commonly repeated by many trans people, to the point where it's reasonable to guess that there really might be something to the idea that certain people just "run" better on certain hormonal profiles due to some quirks of their biology.
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>>27725410
Oh, I see. Thank you for explaining.
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>>27725457
Yeah, of course. I don't see why you're bringing that up though?
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>>27725457
The only thing a Y chromosome does is make your gonad's make testosterone though.
So really by blocking or introducing estradiol, your just by passing that fact... the only meaningful difference between men and woman. It's all just hormonal.
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>>27725457
DNA and autosomal chromosomes are common for XY and XX and female genes can be activated in males by estrogen receptor activity you trigger with exogenous estrogen.
Sex chromosomes give you only testicles or ovaries. If the SRY gene is malfunctioning in Y chromosome, there will be full feminization with preservation of fertility. If a XX person has mutated X chromosome with SRY gene, they will have testicles and be masculinized.
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Your whole post is subversion OP. Self is context, not choice. You didn't choose anything like some RPG game, and you choose nothing now. It's all been decided already, pre set by ages begone. So now you are here, and you are you. And you have tools to work; why distract yourself over flesh? There's works to be done, great works of love and society and future.
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>>27725556
Morever, happiness is time passing, anger is time passing. Love is time remained, as to the workings of it? You guessed it, it's self. The challenge, the sacrifice, the labors of discovery, these are all stepping stones to the place that only YOU can reach. That person though, you don't get to choose, you only get to move them forward. Don't waste your move.
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>>27725556
I am part of the work! In moving through society as myself, I change it. In working on myself, I make the future. A person is ever part of the world into which they are born, not some artist that stands apart from it.

You could say I haven chosen nothing, but then you'd have to say no one ever chooses anything, and so how can you ask why I act as I do? I had no choice! Same as everyone else, under your view.
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>>27724927
>you should wait until science has advanced enough
>but lemme go ahead and kneecap said science so it can never get to this imaginary point
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>>27725576
All is passing. We will all die one day. The stars will blink out, one by one, and the world will grow cold, and so it shall remain for countless eternities. The world itself will die one day and the brief moment during which it was active will be a twinkle in the eye of infinity.

Life is now, in this fleeting moment! I make the most of my one move by making that move which I WANT to make, not the move some other person thinks I should make.
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>>27725578
I don't ask anything of you, you ask that of yourself. And unfortunately, it's been the wrong questions and absolutely the wrong answers. I can't be the one to question/answer, this one (I, me, this person) is only one of many, and many more after will be there and here too. What we do here is not for nothing, but living only self is detriment. Yes you are yourself, but here's the kicker, we are like rainbows, sharing colors with one another, parts of ourselves exists within eachother, taking form into something truly beautiful. And in the end, we pass that forward.
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>>27725644
What you want is flesh, and that's not a real choice, even if you ever completely comfortable with it (and we're not, trust me on that at least). What you need is yourself, and your self needing time and yes death, but the in-between, that's yours - make it of brightness, make it of song and a place we can all meet.
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>>27725659
Forgive me, I must have been confused by the question mark.
You can partake in my rainbow, if you'd like. Perhaps that would teach you more than trying to change its colors so that they're more like yours.
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>>27725686
I thought that there are no real choices? It was all decided already, preset by ages begone. So what is the difference? What is wrong with wanting this, and taking it? Flesh is as much a part of the world as anything else.
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>>27725689
Nothing to forgive, and i appreciate your colors, i do, even if i don't get to behold em in my physical hands. The colors howbeit, i agree cannot be changed. Though we can rinse ourselves, and mix the ingredients, recalibrate. And no, i don't want yours like mine or vice versa, it wouldn't matter if so anyways. Because they are as they are already, again, our context - so what weight is worth our carrying? Have we become jugglers of sort? It hurts, knowing that you hurt (among others) i haven't been down that muck, i only know what i know (which is nothing). But i know pain. The pain is worth defeating, and it's just you.
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>>27725722
If you are meaning what i said in reference of the in-between being yours. Please, replace the word choice with context. The inbetween (context) is yours, let it be hymns of self control and confidence. You can tell yourself no, it's good actually. The clich├ęs make so much sense after you've willingly allowed yourself to be defeated (by your own hand)
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>>27725675
>Your XY chromosomes will still be intact making you still a biological male.
Sex chromosomes don't mean anything besides creating testicles or ovaries. And their function is to produce hormones which you can take exogenously. Also we are already capable of turning testicles into ovaries in adult mice by turning on a single gene. Our possibilities are only going to increase.
Feminization and masculinization of appearance are in autosomal chromosomes. Bone growth is irreversible, but can be modified to female pattern by taking HRT before bones grow too much.
>mammary glands to produce milk
Trannies have mammary glands to produce milk and they produce milk. You're showing you completely don't know what you're talking about.
>womb
breeder subhuman. women who remove their wombs stop being women?
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>>27725770
>>27725801
It's defiance I chose, not defeat. You think think one to be the other.
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>>27724927
>noooo don't do the thing that'll make you happy just bc it's not 100%
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>>27724408
Based and self-lovepilled
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>>27725897
It won't be happiness though, the word in itself is fleeting, such is why it's worth chasing. Drug addicts, criminals, rapists will pursue endless happiness because they don't want to know what it means to be otherwise. The in-between, that's what creates heroes, inspiration and character. Having the bravery to live with self, the truth and understanding that what you want isn't what you're always gonna get.
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>>27725866
And the only defying or denial is to yourself and the truth of self. You stand in your own way. Be that one you that strives for all the other persons that you are. Everyday we are dying as someone and waking up as another. We're lucky because that time and place is inside us. We can travel time and space of self, reflect and know that the only direction we have is forward (with foot, without hand, eye or elsewhere, but that should be made by fate, not wasting resources or time).
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>>27725998
What is the difference between living even though one will one day die, and transitioning even though one can't change one's sex? What you want isn't what you're always gonna get, but you need to do your best to get it anyway. All else is life-denying. All else is the logic of death.
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>>27726053
In what sense do I stand in my own way by pursuing this, any more than I stand in my own way by pursuing anything at all?
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>>27726065
>>27726090
That's really the greatest part of all this mess, especially when it has to do with the big YOU. I'll bring it back to the RPG analysis, you level up. And you'll need all the outlets (even the subversion like this) the challenge of perception and how you can use it all to your own goals. Remember though, context of how and where, maybe not at first (if you start off rich, per say) eventually you get there though, a place of real options (see how we can change the language) leaving choice as it's supposed to be - the barefoot will, laid ahead, always there, ahead, waiting for you to step foot. You have tools, these assets are important and funnel into eachother (mind, body, spirit) they need one another to function properly. We can all become too focused on one aspect, so don't you ever worry about having to start over, yes we do, but check it out...we have all the time in the world for the things we were set out to do.

Here is a word for you - heterotelic
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>>27726298
Sorry, I don't think I understand that answer. Can you explain things more concretely?
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>>27725457
your DNA contains instructions for making you male or female, or do you think all phenotype genes occur on the sex chromosomes? hormones are the software that tell your genes what to express. you can't actually be posting here and talking about HRT and science without understanding that bare minimum.
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>>27726318
No worries, and don't apologize, i can get ahead of myself with these subjects; as I am very enthusiastic about the self and the possibilities that we each inherit from the unique stations we are placed into. I, come from a broken home. Rapist father, drug mother, etc.
The difference being, even through the darkness, i had the will to keep my hands outta the cookie jar. Of course, it'd make things so much easier for me to give in to desire and the wanting. And I want everything, every woman to love me, every man to obey me. But who am I? I am the prince of nothing, future kind of the wastelands, whom can deny my crown? Now, how could I use that darkness to my advantage? How may I get something outta the experience? Making myself available, among the suffering, knowing myself as only the fool. Yet...there's people and things, thoughts, pain still, creating chaos. Do you respond or react? Or do you simply allow it to pass through like a ghost, and as these things pass, will they feel your chill?
Concrete? Look down and stomp, it's there for balance, we'll willingly turn upside just so we can make something our own, even if the object or whatever loses function. Hubris.
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>>27726488
I'm sorry to hear about your family.
As for the rest.. aren't those desires too? You have to want to do something before you can do it. In the end whatever you do is your revealed preference.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revealed_preference
So what's the great difference between wanting to be who you are now, and so making yourself who you are now, and wanting every woman to love you, and every man to obey you? Making yourself available is what you want.
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>>27726298
Going to have to agree with >>27726318, the stream of consciousness way you wrote this out makes it seem like a schizophrenic wrote this, or maybe just a teenager. I think I can decipher it with the keyword you left at the end, heterotrolic.
Purpose outside of yourself is good to have, but it's ultimately a personal choice to choose one. I would rather follow my own idea of heterotrolic purpose. As the saying goes, "If you meet the Buddha on the side of the road, kill him".
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>>27725556
>There's works to be done, great works of love and society and future.
Yes but being trans and taking HRT doesn't stop you from producing great works and creating a lasting legacy
>>27725578
>I am part of the work! In moving through society as myself
Yeah me too, which is why I do what I want, like transitioning and taking HRT, so long as my mark shall be made upon this Earth with passion
>>27725644
>All is passing. We will all die one day.
Like you said here, who the fuck cares, let people do whatever they want to be happy and whole, don't project your pseud ideological musings onto others, live for yourself and to yourself, you and others owe eachother nothing

You've basically spent this entire fucking chain unraveling your original point re: subversion via debating yourself
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>>27726545
Yes desires. Yet, lacking real function. What need do I have of the will and whims of man/woman subjecting themselves to me? It'd be all flesh. Suffering under the weight of one aspect. That jagged point of 3 (self) always come back. So we can fight the desire, good. Now what of the spirit? The spirit wants clarification, why did my parents do this? Why couldn't they just figure it out or at the very least become dull enough people to raise a child in decency? Will the spirit ever really receive these answers? No, parents are dead. So the spirit will always have a lingering question. How can i use that? Making myseld available, knowing myself the fool. And mind? Imma fool remember; simple pleasures are enough (such as a deep breathe, a nap). Now where could I go wrong with this wanting, desires? Allowing it to fuel my pursuit, distracting me from the moments that'll bring me closer to myself. And every day, you are happening (for yourself or for someone). Happening to a world unknown. Yours.
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>>27726652
The second and third responses are indeed by a person other than the one who made the first response, and are arguing with them
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>>27724927
> Until medicine advances enough

HRT expresses all the secondary characteristics of the other gender, if you ask me that is advanced
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>>27726675
Sorry, I think you misunderstood my question. What I was saying there is that by denying yourself those desires you are in fact acting on your other desires, because you necessarily want to do what you're doing now more than you want to do those other things. What you are doing now, is adhering to your desire not to adhere to those desires.

There is no escape from desire at all. All you can do is choose to pursue different desires. And so, what makes some better than the others?
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>>27726677
Oh my bad, this board needs IDs, and I need more sleep, ty for heads up, now I seem like the retard kek
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>>27726761
No big deal Anon, and sorry for embarrassing you.
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>>27726580
>>27726652
Imma nut for sure, and that's okay. Admitting to our faults is absolutely part of our forwarding. And i shall apologize, i do have great passion for the truth of self. Meaning, to allow what's ahead to happen without (by your hand) corrupting the possibilities. It really would be easier to have base animal instincts, these flesh distractions have consistently been a bother for all societies. The romance in self is finding that truth without influence(s) - just the plate handed to you at birth, be it you do young, be it innocence riped away. You as the observer, quixotic, just be there, and let it be. And yes, you do owe it to everyone, and you're not gonna like it either. We are everyone, we feel, we kill all the same. That fear inside you, it's justified, it's a truth knowing that you need to be step up and be away from the excuses.
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>>27724927
lol i should wait to get a uterus or get my bones replaced? why the fuck wouldnt I change everything else right now if I could? I want my life to be liveable it doesn't have to be perfect.

This is some of the dumbest shit I have ever heard on here.
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>>27726845
Livable would entail function, cutting off yourself and replacing it with flesh from another part of the body only covers up a denial. Denying yourself is suffering, you've denied any idea or courage you can have as the natural you. And that's the weight I pray you let go, there's nothing to prove by dragging it along; it won't be accepted (and I am not saying by others, but yes they too) it won't be accepted by you because you've essentially cut yourself off from yourself. Don't create that wall, it can't be broken down after a certain degree. You can always put that pill down, you can always stop eating junk. You can't gain life back where it counts (penis/vagina). This is a war and the bodies are already too high. I want you, just you, to want you.
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>>27726923
there is no natural person. plenty of people in the contemporary world would perish without medication and its truly arrogant to affirm that they should deny themselves this and accept death. you have a preconceived notion that being trans is bad, but it has only helped me live a life without worrying about the thing that previously consumed me. you should check yourself and fuck off. the above poster was right, you are a fucking pseud and/or teenager. you're only speaking from your own experience, not recognizing you aren't enlightened about the lives of others at all. you don't know my true self at all, fool.
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>>27727002
We should accept death, being it as it truly is (the only guarantee). Sure, we've gotten to a good and swell place whereas we can hold out longer, we made that happen together. With an understanding of how we want to get there, and we got there (without understanding all that we had to sacrifice). And i am a fool, I've happily admitted in several responses. Do you bleed? Do you cry? What other experiences need we know before we can say we know how it feels to suffer? I'll never know your true self, that's entirely your journey. I am only here to say: I believe in you, the whole you. You will have to be the one though that continues, and it can be done without want.
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>>27727085
that's not what you're saying, charlatan.
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>>27727128
Hm?
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>>27726723
Aye, again, don't apologize, but I love your manners. Sure, in a subversive spin around, we cannot fully escape desire (as with any sin, which fundamentally creates pillars around our spirit). Answering questions with questions can of course, be fun. We have to fall back to basics in these stalemates, that is need. You need food for energy etc. So we take it in moderation, the needs vs the wants - i need to go pick up my check, i want to spend the money, but i need some odds and ends for the house, i can wait until next check to fulfill (in moderation) that burning desire to complete my card sets. What's the advantage of completing this set? Well...if need be, i could sell it for 10x the original price...do I want to? No. Will I? Eventually, because I'll move on from this want and use it as a good function. Every place and time has an advantage. You're born a man or a woman but you want to be other. What advantages could you afford? In our modern age, many. You're a man who is actually a woman, that's beautiful. You've found you, and be that (the flesh means nothing to that notion).
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People always speak about these things so naively.
Freedoms are only granted to the extent that they don't cause disturbances in society overall. For example, far too many people think free speech means you can say literally anything, but there are a plentiful amount of exceptions (libel, slander, misrepresentation etc).
The simple matter of the fact is trans people are an extreme minority and if they're deemed to have a negative impact on society, then they're not going to be granted leeway.
Those who are vocal and in the spotlight have done an amazing job at ruining trans optics and unless something is collectively done as a group to remedy the fact then things aren't going to get better.
Compelled speech, trans sports, anything to do with kids and non passers in women's spaces needs to end if you ever want society to accept you. All this was pushed on people way too fast and has resulted in the backlash you're seeing now.
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>>27724408
Ok groomer
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>>27726923
How is that denial? Is that person not perfectly aware of what they're doing? When we eat instead of starving, do we deny the natural us that is dead? When we seek shelter when it's cold, do we deny the natural us that froze to death?

There is no reason at all to sanctify the natural course of events.

>>27727438
When I transition, is it not in moderation? What tells you that there is any excess here?
When you seek to deny your desires, is it not in excess? What tells you that man should not give in more to that which he wants, as the animals do? Is that not natural, and do you not sanctify nature?
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>>27727533
I do not speak of acceptance. I speak of justice. It is simply wrong to deny us this freedom. If society chooses to be wrong, so be it. Many societies were and are. In any case there is absolutely no connection between any of the things you wrote of and it being inherently unjust to deny us in this.
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>>27727678
Justice is an abstract concept that has to be agreed upon by the majority. There is no objective sense of it to be referenced. It's always shifting.
You need to think in more practical terms if you ever want anything to truly change.
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>>27727602
I'd ask the same question in that regard, are they fully aware of these procedures? Cocktail of anti depressants, head filled with what ifs instead of tasks done and ready for the next. Otherwise, the questions in circles, those aren't questions that really need answering, they answer for themselves in action (even the base mind of animals know when to shelter without questions). What tells you when it's in excess? Your body will grow, it will weaken. Your mind will dull if not in use, criticism will be become assault instead of someone offering a different view. Nature dies too, and as whom we are, we kill it faster than usual because we forgot moderation.
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>>27727703
The majority has no particular say about justice. The Jews of Germany were not in the wrong simply because the majority sought to exterminate them. This would be true even if the outside world did not exist. As to objectivity.. of course there's nothing objective to be pointed to, but this does not matter. We adhere to our own subjective conception of justice nevertheless, and people tend to share common conceptions regarding justice, and so it affects the world. Above is simple statement: by your own code your actions are unjust.

As to change, the current outrage is manufactured, and the solution to it will be likewise manufactured. Do not take the anger of the masses at face value. They're just repeating what their tabloids told them. The solution to that is to have other tabloids tell them otherwise.
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>>27727817
You're trying to look at it philosophically in a bubble which is largely irrelevant.
Those in power and the collective masses decide what is right and wrong. Some simple tabloids aren't going to fix trans acceptance.
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>>27727796
So moderation breeds wellness. I see.
In which case, isn't not transitioning excess, since it results in death and dullness of mind, while transitioning results in life and acuity? Is it not just like an animal seeking shelter?
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>>27727848
>You're trying to look at it philosophically in a bubble which is largely irrelevant.
Every civil movement begins with an appeal to one's sense of justice and decency.

>Those in power and the collective masses decide what is right and wrong.
Those in power and the collective masses would call you evil for thinking the Jews of Germany to be evil, and their tormentors to be good, simply because their tormentors were in power and had the support of the collective masses. Do you accept that judgement? Are you evil?

>Some simple tabloids aren't going to fix trans acceptance.
Those tabloids are behind this backlash, so they could certainly undo it.
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>>27727922
You're entirely twisting the argument. It's not saying the jews were evil, but that in that time period, the nazis were in complete power and got to dictate the code of justice. What people think a century later is completely irrelevant and changes nothing to the events that occurred.
It's also a far stretch to compare the holocaust to "trans rights" and will make you come off as extremely disingenuous.
>Those tabloids are behind this backlash, so they could certainly undo it.
Things have progressed passed the idea that a bit of reverse propaganda is going to undo it is delusional. You already have very vocal groups doing that now and it's simply adding fuel to the fire because nothing is being done in a conducive manner. We are not at a big picture point, it's all about the tiny details and how things are being conducted that matters.
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>>27728053
>You're entirely twisting the argument. It's not saying the jews were evil, but that in that time period, the nazis were in complete power and got to dictate the code of justice. What people think a century later is completely irrelevant and changes nothing to the events that occurred.
What does it mean that they got to dictate the code of justice, if not that the Jews were evil while the code of justice said that they are evil?

>It's also a far stretch to compare the holocaust to "trans rights" and will make you come off as extremely disingenuous.
We're discussing right and wrong, are we not? This is an example of where your way of thinking fails.

>Things have progressed passed the idea that a bit of reverse propaganda is going to undo it is delusional. You already have very vocal groups doing that now and it's simply adding fuel to the fire because nothing is being done in a conducive manner. We are not at a big picture point, it's all about the tiny details and how things are being conducted that matters.
For the last few years major press outlets have widely demonized transgender people, with no proper counterbalance, as have conservatives across various countries. Your mistake is in ignoring that and looking to the ostensible issues people raise. Those are not their real concerns. Just the casus bellum. To try to acquiesce to their demands will just invite further attack. The actual game is played across the media landscape, and is won on the level of political powers.
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>>27728158
>What does it mean that they got to dictate the code of justice, if not that the Jews were evil while the code of justice said that they are evil?
To the nazis in that time period, yes.
You're trying to look at it from an outside lens, which serves no practical purpose.
>We're discussing right and wrong, are we not? This is an example of where your way of thinking fails.
I'm not trying to because it's completely subjective and trying to appeal to that without any context is a pointless discussion imo.

As for your last part, I'll simply address the concerns in America where one political power is never fully in control. It's a two party system that's always at war with each other, yet despite the liberal media landscape trying to advocate for trans people, there is still an increasing number of people that are opposing it. You're not going to win those people over with more propaganda, that is already going on. You have to go deeper than that an actually resolve the concerns. The foundation has already been laid and it's not going to be possible to simply pave over it with a new one.
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>>27727533
the minority shouldn't suffer because of a few vocal and bad minorities WITHIN that minority
and a bunch of the things you talked about are just excuses used by transphobes to be transphobic
no community is perfect, there will ALWAYS be conflict and things we don't agree
why do we as a community have to solve every single thing wrong with every single member in the community to be respected?
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>>27728317
>To the nazis in that time period, yes.
So to certain people who lived in a particular time period, but not absolutely, right? Now ask: why did you have to say this, if the majority decides what is right and wrong? Couldn't you just say that, yes, back then the jews were evil because most thought of them that way?

>You're trying to look at it from an outside lens, which serves no practical purpose.
It serves a very practical purpose: it allows me to point out that the majority has no special authority over morality.

>I'm not trying to because it's completely subjective and trying to appeal to that without any context is a pointless discussion imo.
Human subjectivity tends to produce the same patterns over and over, across time and space. Different moral codes often have features in common, even if they were developed without any contact. This is because humans have particular proclivities. As a result different codes have values in common.

I appeal to those values.

>As for your last part, I'll simply address the concerns in America where one political power is never fully in control. It's a two party system that's always at war with each other, yet despite the liberal media landscape trying to advocate for trans people, there is still an increasing number of people that are opposing it. You're not going to win those people over with more propaganda, that is already going on.
The right has attacked transgender people a thousand times more vehemently than the left has ever defended them. Fox News is ranting about the trannies day and night. Is there a network as popular that dedicates just as much screen time to defending trans people? The tabloids, especially the British ones, attack trans people week after week. Are there tabloids that defend them as frequently?

It's the lack of parity. Nothing more. The concerns themselves are as real as the fear that gay teachers are grooming kids. It's really about Christian homophobia.
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>>27728476
Yes, if you think justice or right/wrong is ever going to be absolute or objective then you're simply wrong. It's entirely based on context. I'm not going to reiterate this on further replies.

>It serves a very practical purpose: it allows me to point out that the majority has no special authority over morality.
It absolutely does. Sure, you as an individual person may keep your own morality, but you have to look in terms of society. The majority will come together to found laws, social etiquette and basic rules that are enforced and expected to be adhered to.

In the end, it doesn't really matter what one person appeals to. You can live your life however you want, but there will always be consequences based on where you are and what the current collective has decided.

That's the issue isn't it? Why would any huge company, that's based first and foremost on revenue, devote so much revenue to trans defense when they're such an extreme minority. It's not going to happen. You have to address the issues that are being attacked so that there is so little to attack that it doesn't hold up.
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>>27728747
>Yes, if you think justice or right/wrong is ever going to be absolute or objective then you're simply wrong. It's entirely based on context. I'm not going to reiterate this on further replies.
Come on, now. That something isn't objective does not mean that one is banned from speaking from within their own subjectivity. Objectively it is no better to live than it is to die, because objectively speaking morality does not exist, but people will openly opine otherwise because they have faith in their way. So is the case for many moral issues.

>It absolutely does. Sure, you as an individual person may keep your own morality, but you have to look in terms of society. The majority will come together to found laws, social etiquette and basic rules that are enforced and expected to be adhered to.
Certainly, but that majority will tend to do so based on certain moral principles, and you can appeal to those principles they have in common with you to sway them. Abolition as a movement, for instance, drew on Christian morality.

>In the end, it doesn't really matter what one person appeals to. You can live your life however you want, but there will always be consequences based on where you are and what the current collective has decided.
Persuasion relies, in part, on appealing to the values of the persuaded. The collective's ways can be changed.

>That's the issue isn't it? Why would any huge company, that's based first and foremost on revenue, devote so much revenue to trans defense when they're such an extreme minority. It's not going to happen.
That is another matter. I agree that the financial incentive isn't there right now. Things might be otherwise with funding/politics, though.

>You have to address the issues that are being attacked so that there is so little to attack that it doesn't hold up.
The attackers take the existence of trans people as an affront. They will not stop in response to concessions. They'll keep going.
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>>27728747
>>27728871
My personal views, by the way, are not entirely within the confines of the party line. I don't think MTFs who transition as adults should compete with women and I do not think that it's absolutely crucial that they are allowed to use women's restrooms provided that there is some other safe accommodation for them. However I'm aware that making these concessions won't win me any friends, because these issues are symptoms rather than the cause of the attack. As to children transitioning, that is a different matter. People should receive the care they empirically need whether the majority is for it or not.
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>>27728871
>The collective's ways can be changed
I agree with you on this and I'd like to see them changed, but you're offering no practical methods of doing so. This isn't going to happen on a global scale of just saying "hey, you're wrong, cut it out". It's going to have to be waves of small victories in the areas of concern to change public perception.
I have to leave for now so I guess it'll end at that.
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>>27728951
I think there is worth both to personal persuasion, rooted in common values, and to grand strategy. What I don't think is that the hatred for us is genuinely simply rooted in all of the talking points handed to the haters from on high. They're a means, not the root of the issue.
Take care, Anon.
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>>27724927
even if it's a half measure starting hrt will do you a lot better than repressing.
normies are retarded and literally believe the "woman born in man's body" shit, it's not about just being "born wrong" it's about being extremely uncomfortable with the body you're in. If having man skin and facial hair makes you want to kill yourself and you have the option of making it better with hrt then of course you're gonna feel better with the problem being alleviated in some capacity.
>b-but you'll never be a REAL woman!
and schizos will never be able to make themselves retroactively insane, doesn't mean we should just deny them treatment and teach them that they "should just accept themselves as the schizos they naturally are instead :-)"



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