How come only the Americans thought of using shotguns in WW1, even though they should've been a pretty obvious weapon of choice for the kind of close range combat often seen during that war?
because others were already some steps further in the more fun direction
>>60198840I don't know dude, how about you build a time machine and do some studies back in 1914 you fucking nerd
>>60198840It wasn't a case of "thought of", it was a case of who had the industrial capacity to do so. Back then the vast majority of European shotguns were double-barrel break actions handmade by relatively small shops. Even with US trench guns they weren't used because they were better than a rifle, they were used because they were perfectly adequate for trench duty, and that freed up a rifle for someone else. Everybody fielded all the guns they could, and it just so happened that the US had a big industry mass-producing shotties already.
>>60198871> they weren't used because they were better than a rifleThey were extremely good at stopping infantry chargers and clearing trenches, though. You can have shit aim and still wound a few guys coming at you with one shot.
>>60198891You can be whopping 2" off target and still get a grazing hit
>>60198891Shot patterns at trench combat distances would be about the size of your fist. The idea of a single shotshell hitting multiple soldiers reeks of movie and video game BS. They absolutely were effective but it's not like they were any better than shooting a man with a 30 cal.
>>60198840The bigger issue is that back then the vast majority of shotgun shells were paper. They tended to deform or break in the damp trench conditions and it really impacted the reliability of the gun. The use of the 1897 is also overplayed. There were maybe 20,000 that actually got used in France.
>>60198840Yuros genuinely thought it was "unsporting", ironically. Plus we had Browning. (PBUH)
>>60198891Also consider how much easier it is to effectively rapid-fire a pump shotgun in a trench warfare clusterfuck than it is with even the smoothest bolt action rifle, especially with a Winchester 1897 that you can slam-fire. Your hands never need to reposition on the gun until it's time to reload It also helps that the bayonet is basically a short sword, too.
>>60198891Shot patterns with buck typically expand 1" per yard past the muzzle up to roughly 30 yards.
>>60199044>genuinely thought it was "unsporting"Nah, that was just normal wartime propaganda/banter, sort of like how the allies whined about the German "butcher blade bayonet". Everybody took every opportunity they could to demonize what the others were doing.
>>60198963They could be cycled and fired at a much higher rate, and it is in fact easier to hit a man with a fist-size shot pattern than a 30 caliber projectile. I've never seen one lined up next to a 1903 or anything but I imagine they were much shorter and handier innatrench as well. I heard from Forgotten Weapons that they didn't do so well in wet conditions because plastic shells either weren't developed or weren't in common use yet, and the paper shells could get fucked up. Plus, IIRC by the time they really had the chance to filter to the front en masse, the trench warfare stage of the conflict had mostly subsided and men were advancing over open terrain more often.
>>60198864Sees you and raises you a Pedersen and a BAR.>>60199050Plus you are not losing anything in capacity over anything but an Enfield, Lebel or some very limited production (borderline prototype) extended magazines. Full reload is slower than strippers though.
>>60199078As in all conflicts. Propaganda 103: It’s bad when they do it, but good when we do it.
>>60199079>plastic shells either weren't developed or weren't in common use yetTrue, but paper comes waxed and full brass shells are a thing
>>60199078Most of the brass did still had very antiquated and "gentlemanly" ideas of warfare. It is why mass charges were still employed in the face of Maxims and Vickers.
>>60199079>I heard from Forgotten Weapons that they didn't do so well in wet conditions because plastic shells either weren't developed or weren't in common use yetThat is absolutely correct, paper shotshells swelling up and getting stuck in guns was a big problem for sportsmen too. All sorts of special tools were invented for extracting stuck shells and were common at any gun shop back in the day. Picrel was a common form, the tool has one part for grabbing the rim of cases and a hook or other device for removing the cylindrical part of a hull if the case head rips off.
>>60199115Another common design was worn like a ring.These are essentially forgotten today but were standard kit for hunters for decades.
>>60199089Paper shells were treated with wax or lacquer in an attempt to waterproof them but it didn't work perfectly. Brass shells did exist but they often got stuck too since brass + steel + moisture = galvanic corrosion.>>60199121It was also common for pocketknives of that era to have shell extractors on them in one form or another, like the one on the lower right on this pic.
>>60198840I think the shotgun was a more obvious option for the Americans than the other countries because USA had already used it extensively in the Philippines for close up jungle combat. In Europe combat distances had usually been much longer and in open areas.
>>60199101>mass charges were still employed in the face of Maxims and VickersThat's not why "over the top" mass charges were used
>>60198840smgs are far better for trenches, and then you're not left with a gun incapable of longer range fire, thats why there was much more of a push for them instead of shotguns
>>60199469It's not like the idea of shotguns was unknown in Europe. Coach guns with bayonets were common defensive weapons. Blunderbusses loaded with shot were standard navy equipment during the age of sail. Buck-and ball loads for muskets have been around as long as muskets have, likewise with canister shot for cannons. Early military cartridges like .577 Snider, .45-70 and .450/.577 Martini-Henry were made in shot versions. The idea of using shotguns for military purposes wasn't some big new secret the Americans discovered. It was really just as simple as: we're at war, we need all the guns we can get, there's already companies with modern factories tooled up making shotguns, let's have them add a bayonet mount and a heat shield to one of their existing designs and now we've got a simple means of cranking out more weapons for the boys across the pond.
I know this discussion is about historical use of shotguns in war but I'd like to say that modern semi-auto 12ga shotguns are terrifying. Imagine trying to assault a structure where a gunman is holed up with a 1301 loaded with #4 buck. 8 shots of 20-24 pellets as fast as the trigger can be pulled. If you're wearing armor they'll treat it like a turkey hunt and chop your neck off.
>>60198871The US had plenty of rifles. They used shotguns because they had benefits for the context.>>60198963No dumbass, you "well acktually it's not like vidya" clowns have now gone in the other direction to where you think people are essentially doing the same thing as landing rifle hits on fast moving birds dozens of yards out. Spread is highly variable with your choke. With a cylinder choke you can have a 40 inch spread at 20 yards, which is completely feasible given the trenches back then, although it would likely be closer than that.Are you likely to hit multiple people? No. Is the spread going to cover a decent bit? Yes. You're talking on trajectory versus torso size spreads at longer distances. And of course they are easier to cycle and there is more chance of an instantly incapacitating wound with multiple projectiles.
>>60199115>having to do D&E on a shotgun chamber>followed by curettage
>>60198840Pump action shotguns were just were not very popular in Europe and Europeans have this weird autism where they absolutely refuse to admit Americans could do literally anything right, it's also why in WW2 most the European nations kinda scoffed at SMG's as anything but rearline "poormans" MG's until the Finnish had to use a bunch out of necessity and caused the Russians to wake up to how good SMG's actually were for frontline troops.
>>601988401) They actually barely used them. Like <20k guns were issued IIRC and way fewer saw use. Germans are sore losers, if they are losing it's because you aren't following the rules they made up in their head.2) Other countries did use shotguns in different military contexts (break-action sporting guns were used by both sides for carrier pigeon message interception, for example) but they didn't have a shitload of sporting pump guns to saw down lying around. They had one or two shot pheasant guns, many of them hand made.3) They didn't have the blinding autistic genius of one specific Mormon to create assembly line production pump guns at mass scale, or the demand for them that the American sporting marked provided so that that production capacity was already in place before the war even got going.4) Americans had been taking their shotguns from home to war with them anyway, at least as far back as the Mexican-American war (prior to that the prevalence of smoothbore muskets didn't really require you to have separate platforms for ball or shot). They knew how useful something like a coach gun was defensively. Having a better dedicated one for a more modern war with more modern procurement made sense.
>>60198891you have to be 18 to post here
The US in 1914 was second only to the Bomgs in war experience, having had the Indian Wars, the Spanish American War and and the Philippines Insurrection. A lot of these were close-up fights, where a pump-action shottie was just the ticket in pre sub-machine gun era. The Brits had been fighting in longer-range conflict theaters. So the mix in a Doughboy infantry assault circa early 1918 should have been use the machine guns and supporting rifles for suppressing fire, with a maneuver element of rifles and shotguns to get into the trench. Once the shotguns get into the trench, it’s shoot up the trench while the riflemen protect from over the top and toss grenades around the next zig-zag so that they shotgunners round the bend right after the grenade burst to start blasting any live enemy in that section. Keep rolling up the trench.
>>60199050>muh slamfireunderaged pls go
>>60202470>>60202644pretty much these
>>60198871This.The pump was a very new, and very American thing. Shotguns were widely regarded in European countries as guns the lords used to hunt birds.Oh and Mr. Pershing thought they worked well against the Moros so he decided to use them in WW1 alsoAnyone who has not fired an 1897 needs to do so. One of those guns I can never part with, it's just so awesome.
>>60198840>logisticsPaper cartridges in wet conditions can work, it's just a pain in the ass to keep them not swollen. Early lmg/smg development, pistols, and flamethrowers were adequate without introducing another round in to the supply chain. >>60198963>it's not like they were any better than shooting a man with a 30 cal.A fist size hole is much preferable in the event your .30 cal is off the A zone enough to not be immediately debilitating. A flesh wound then becomes a huge chunk of ass spit out on the floor more likely to break through shock/adrenaline. Recoil's preferable to most of the thoroughly not-intermediate calibers, same for the overall length. They had the choke technology to make the spread whatever they liked if it was an issue.
The US already had a nearly 20-year history of using both slide-action and single-shot shotguns in combat.
>>60202707So are you arguing that you can't slamfire a Winchester 1897, that it's slower than working a bolt, or that assault troops attacking a trench didn't slamfire?
>>60203060I'm arguing that slamfire is retarded and no one actually used it in attacking a trench, or if they did they were retarded. You've clearly never fired a slamfire shotgun and just think it sounds cool. It fucks up your accuracy and it doesn't even practically increase your rate of fire.
>>60198840Because militaries are in general run by old people who resist change and as a result end up doing stupid shit for a long time just because it worked in the past with no regard for current circumstances. For fucks sake during WWI they instructed men to march and fire toward enemy trenches instead of firing. They were issuing six foot long rifles with bayonets on the end as close quarters trench fighting instruments as if almost literally anything else wouldn’t be better in that type of warfare.
>>60203086>I'm arguing that slamfire is retarded and no one actually used it in attacking a trenchAnd you’re calling other people retarded? Yeah guy, I’m sure infantry really hated being able to send a fuckton of lead down range in Quick succession. Only a moron would want that.
>>60202644>The US in 1914 was second only to the Bomgs in war experienceAmerimutts really are this fucking ignorant of world history.
>>60203115You're up late for someone who has school in the morning.
>>60199080>raises you something weaker that barely existed and a fuckhuge automatic rifle that only Rambo could use in a confined spaceYou may be retarded.
>>60202644The US in 1914 was a fucking joke.
>>60204022>posts M1915>retorts that Pedersen "barely existed"What kind of retard are you?
>>60198891>You can have shit aimNo, you can't. At trench distances if you missed with a rifle, you'd miss with a shotgun too. Stop getting all of your firearms knowledge from video games you tard.
>>60204028>World's largest economy by far>World's richest country >Massive population advantage on Euros>Euros already crying about the "Americanization of the world" in the 1890s.>JokeFunny.
>>60204103>The irony of this post.
>>60199080>raises you a Pedersen and a BAR.a never fielded retrofit SMG contraption and light machine gun fed from a 20 round magazine.
>>60201489A hit at shotgun ranges with a full size rifle cartridge is a done deal
>>60201489>They used shotguns because they had benefits for the context.The benefit was increased production of arms.>With a cylinder choke you can have a 40 inch spread at 20 yardsI don't think you've ever patterned a shotgun in your life.https://www.theboxotruth.com/threads/the-box-o-truth-20-buckshot-patterns.327/
>>60203115You ever fired a slamfire shotty, anon? They're not appreciably faster than a regular pump and they're a lot less controllable. Slamfire is a meme.
>>60205035Yes, I own an old Ithaca. Have you tried not having noodle arms?
>>60198840Because Americans are the smartest and most handsome.
Hearing americans talk about WWI is like listening to fish speak about flying
>>60204109>no bro it totally has a 10 foot spread at 3 meters i know because i played call of duty
>>60206480>he doesn’t knoweuros shitting on the very nation they had to beg to come over in the final 18 months to drag their retarded asses across the finish line as if wasting the preceding three years pointlessly slaughtering each other without said nation providing much needed adult supervision is some sort of flex to be proud of - this sort of misplaced hubris is what we in the states refer to as “being too clever by half”>pic related
>>60205767>I slamfired birdshot into the dirt with my grandpa's ithica so obviously it's faster and good for combat
>>60209278>dramatic bloc of text to make a statement about Euros being "too clever by half">fucks it upsasuga and case in point
>>60209459>hundreds of videos of slamfiring without issues>anyone with a modicum of ability to control recoil has no issue hitting targets while slamfiring with standard 2 3/4 00fuck off retard
>>60210220It has zero advantages over simply pulling the trigger again and plenty of disadvantages. It doesn't make you any faster. Sorry to upset you.
>>60211624>but you can just not hold the trigger and only pull it after cycling!or you could just hold the trigger down if the intent is to shoot quickly>plenty of disadvantagesyou haven't named a single one
>>60212032>you haven't named a single oneIt reduces your accuracy by shaking the gun around. You don't know what you're talking about, just stop. Slamfire is not good, it's a trap for nogunz and fuddlore.
>>60212130you don't need to be accurate when the target is 10 metres away
>>60206480Imagine bragging about the conduct of WW1
>>60209318Skimming the calm Philippine seas at 30 knots in an inflatable boat with these things soaring aside is among the kinoest things I’ve ever done
>>60198840>How come only the Americans thought of using shotguns in WW1Just American genius really. No one else had invented one, except the french one that was made of paper with a wax coating so it did not clear treches properly but the American one went BANG BZNG BANG and won the world war for the UN and the UN unnaxified the world and all the dogld stuud znd clapped and gave the USA medals except for Chip who did not make it back because eveyone held his hand too tight as hus arterey retracted up his ass and strangled his brain. The closing scene is the American flag fluttering on Chips grave while taps plays on a bugle.
>>60216303brrr brrrbrrr brrrbrr br br de brrrrrr de de brrrrrrrrrrrrFor Chip.
>>60198963Has never patterned a shotgun
>>60217561Used them in nam, like in the five fingers, scrotum ripped and strapped into the groin just emptying that pump into the treeline while the thump thump thump of the bird comers in. Slick with sweat and pasxing out as the heroin hits as the doir gunner dumps his last belts. Good times
>>60198840I read once that the brits did testing on issuing shotguns but found them less than satisfactory, mostly because they did the tests with a side by side instead of a pump.
>>60217769Charlie sheen and Martin sheen arm wrestlin in the nude and carlis hatcock playing russian roulette with barnes while charlie creeps out if the dark and hits the perimiter wire with sappers. Good times.
>>60210131>pompous euro so frothy over a burger playfully reminding them that they’re actually just as stupid as the rest of us despite their pretensions he opts to skip the rebuttal altogether and go right for the jugular:>”Oh yeah? Well your post’s formatting isn’t quite to my particular tastes and leaves much to be desired in terms of establishing proper continuity therefore I think we can all agree that whatever underlying point was being made can be safely disregarded without any further discussion.”At this point you’re proving my point far more effectively than I am proving yours.
>>60203192 I should have said in RECENT war experience. The Krauts beat the French in 1871 because the French were clinically retarded, since then, not much. The Austrians were mostly busy murdering Serbs and Czechs and Magyars and ethnic Krafts. The Italians were most,y murdering each other with the occasional stint of getting BTFOd by Negro warriors of Somalia or Ethiopia. The Russians…who knows what the fuck the Russians were doing? Losing their assets to the Japs, fomenting revolutions, drinking vodka, starving, and arresting each other, I guess. So, yes, the Bongs were off Building Empire, and the Yanks were doing their own half-assed version of it in Cuba and Philippines and chasing the odd Julio bandidos and desperados. Also oppressing American Indians. You have an alternate history where the 3rd French Empire or the 4th French Republic, (hard to keep track with those assholes), morphed into a military heavyweight by clobbering some palookas between 1871 and 1914? The Krauts actually DID, but von Bismarck, being the smartest Kraut that has ever lived, told them all to cool it and get back to work building new and better weapons. Especially battleships, since Navalism was “the Hot New Thing” in that period. What glorious military campaigns did Italy undertake between 1870-1914? They defeated The Papal States, (hooray!), and Garibaldi United the peninsula IIRC. Please fill in the gaps in my history here, AO learned one.
>>60204028 Hmmm, yes, But by 1917, we were the ones whose ass every Euro was busy kissing. So we tagged in late in the match and put the Krauts on the mat by stopping their 1918 offensive at Belleau Wood. Sue us for being smart, and thank us for being there with the wares when it counted. Or you’d be speaking German and kissing the Kaiser’s pimpled ass like the Bongs have to kiss Charlie Trey’s wrinkled old Krautish bum. Fuck you.
>>60209278 The side effects of enthusiastic sodomy and eating unpasteurized cheese… Many such cases.
>>60219099>Krauts beat the French in 1871 because the French were clinically retardedI'm noticing a trend
>>60214197I see your fudd masters have trained you well in their dark arts.
>>60199080Shotguns in WWI were a thing because they were particularily useful in trench clearing. Rifles and machineguns were not practical in the confined space of a trench.The Germans however developed the first submachine gun for their infiltration units.
>>60204123Used 40 round mags, anon. Still, MP18 is superior
>>60198840Because brits are fucking stupid.
>>60224320Fugg, I'm a retard; You meant BAR capacity. Second half stands though
>>60219244Read "The Arms of Krupp" last year. Very good breakdown of Franco-Prussian war and extremely interesting history of modern cannon development. Highly recommended.
>>60198840>the kind of close range combat often seen during that war?real life isn't like video gamesyou need to be 18 or older to post here
>>60225727>often seen during THAT war?Can you not read? He specified WWI. Hand to hand combat was a real enough possibility in trench warfare that people were carrying handmade clubs and maces and shit. WWI was completely unlike any other war.
>>60224342 Yep.Seconded.Who needs steel guns, Capitan DeLoser? We have BRONZE, just like Napoleon did! Don't worry about le Boche...look at them building railroad sidings half a kilometer long in these sleepy little border towns!
>>60226313real life isn't like video games you need to be 18 or older to post here