Tactical advantage of keeping your surplus in so bad condition that Ukraine refuses to accept them?
>>59597477Tons of tanks apparently broke down during training and spare parts are hard to come by. I'm not really surprised. The last tank went out of order in 2003 or so.
>>59597477i can understand mmuh nazi complex meme preventing krauts from having decent army, but come the fuck on, at this point you woudl be conquered by switzerland easilyimagine being top 1 economy in EU and europe, while also beying one of the most defensless nations on the same continent, betting their survival on america and country they destroyed in world war aka poorland and them buying out the mightest army in europe
>>59597477Are those the tanks that were stuck in that Belgian arms dealer's storage facility for like 5 years?
Can they not just use them as defensive turrets or something.
>>59597744No, these are the bundeswehr stock that was phased out. They can't find showers for then and technical know how for training engineers on them has vanished.
>Leopard 1A5 were rejectedAccording to who?
Their army has or at least panzergerenediers have no marching songs or anything official so they all still sing nazi shit it's funny as fuck to hang around them, watching the company commander start singing errica while in the commander seat of a marder .T.brit bong liaison during training exercise
>>59597933Some (10?) were because they wore them out too much during training and don't have the trained mechanics to fix them in Ukraine yet so they left them behind to get fixed up first.
logistics a bitch
>>59597477These tanks were phased out 20 years ago, no shit there's some teething problems with their reactivation, same as the russians had. The difference is, when it happens to western tanks it becomes news and people take action to solve the problem.>>59597728>>59597729Retards.
>>59597905yeah! they're our puppy! and they're getting free treats! yet they are not respectful! I'll call the chancellor immediately and tell him to stop giving our puppy free treats!I am demoralized. this vatnik shill is highly potent and absolutely should remain here shitposting on /k/ 24/7 instead of being sent to the front lines
>>59597905Well, it is Der Spiegel2018 fabrication scandal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Der_Spiegel)The Wall Street Journal cited a former Der Spiegel journalist who said "some of the articles at issue appeared to confirm certain German stereotypes about Trump voters, asking "was this possible because of ideological bias?" An apology ensued from Der Spiegel for looking for a cliché of a Trump-voting town, and not finding it. Mathias Bröckers, former Die Tageszeitung editor, wrote: "the imaginative author simply delivered what his superiors demanded and fit into their spin". American journalist James Kirchick claimed in The Atlantic that "Der Spiegel has long peddled crude and sensational anti-Americanism."
>>59597729>imagine being top 1 economy in EU and europe, while also beying one of the most defensless nations Defense is very expensive to acquire and maintain. Besides, why have a military if your main potential enemy is a dozen countries away? AND the US has their own forces nearby?
>>59597744Would suprise me as we actually did an expensive update and maintenance run for every tank before scrapping them a year later (because of course we did) so the belgian ones should have been in a good condition
It looks like a 50's tank>look it up it isWhy would these even be offered. Have to be complete death traps.
>>59600176The armour sucks total ass by design, but they've been upgraded through the decades to have better optics and fire control and shit so they can get the first shot off. I wouldn't wanna do a push with them, but it's gotta be better than bald ass T-62s that ruskie zetards were pushing back into service before
beggars can be choosers it seems, what a bunch of entitled faggots
What faggot OP forgot to mention: This was a single shipment of 10 Leo 1s that got sent back.>>59597729Dude. They're literally decades-old hulls that had been in non-mothball storage. The newest one of these was retired from service and slated for disposal 20 years ago, and it was just bureaucracy being slow as fuck that kept them from getting cut apart for scrap in the meantime. If at all, it's pretty fucking crazy that most of them still work anyway.
>>59600176The Leo1a5 is not a "50s tank"
>>59600176Place them on borders to rotate t-72 and t-64, at worst place them in territorial defence units and rear.
>>59601041Yeah, and it's the one that did everything it could to maximise dependency on Russian energy.
>>59600176Look, Leopard 1s (even the most modernized versions) are thoroughly obsolescent, but they're not exactly obsolete either. Would I personally want to take one into battle? No. If given the choice, would I pick a Leopard 1A5 over an early- or mid-model T-72? Fucking definitely. No contest.
>>59600176>has to google what a leopard 1 isMaybe stay in /pol/ if you have no clue about this
>>59601366Once upon a time you didn't know either
>>59600878Nah Russia is losing because it's on the defensive in the poorest country in Europe that's on its border.
>>59601354Pretty much everything can punch a hole in everything else. What matters is getting the first shot off and being able to do all the other jobs. They are better suited than the unmodernized 80's soviet types running about. So there ya go.
>>59601583>Pretty much everything can punch a hole in everything elseNot frontally
>>59601644Not so sure about that. Penetrators have come a long way since the 105mm last tangled with T-72s.
>>59597477None. It's embarrassing.>>59597905The only relationship a russoid thirdy is capable of comprehending
>>59601683I would not be confident in an L7 reliably frontally penetrating anything more armoured than a T-72A
>>59601366You are a retard.
>>59601748Depends on the range, really. Also, have you seen the bullshit they are fielding now? They rolled into this thing with T-72As and things have only gotten worse since.A lot of folks have gotten used to thinking in terms of the massive overmatch of modern western gear. The old stuff will still tear the ass out of most of the garbage Russia is trotting out there if competently crewed.
>>59597871>They can't find showersoh i could find showers for them
>>59597477>keeping your surplus in so bad conditionIs this really something you want to draw attention to?
>>59597477YikesUkraine has refused to accept a batch of 10 German Leopard 1A5 tanks, "Der Spiegel" reports on Tuesday. As reported, the Ukrainian side stated that the machines needed repair and that not only did it not have spare parts, but it also did not have specialists who could take care of them. According to the findings, Kiev recently notified the appropriate staff at the German Ministry of Defense that the transferred tanks that arrived in Poland require repairs. As noted, some of them need a "major renovation". The Germans handed over "used" tanks. They will repair them. Due to the Ukrainian notification, a group of experts was delegated to Poland to assess the machines. On site, it turned out that the tanks "were heavily worn during the training of Ukrainian soldiers in Germany and require repair." According to Spieel, it was not only the last delivery from Germany that had problems - the tanks transferred to Ukraine in July were withdrawn from use due to "similar problems". When asked about the transfer of destroyed tanks, the German Ministry of Defense said it could not comment on "individual cases." It was also noted that the tanks are being repaired in cooperation with Ukraine At the beginning of August, the daily "Die Welt" reported that the German authorities were "delaying" in delivering weapons promised to Ukraine. As indicated by reference to data published on the German government's website, Ukraine received only 10 of the 110 promised Leopard-1 tanks, 12 of 18 Gepard tanks and 850 pieces of artillery ammunition. On Monday, German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius announced a new aid package for Ukraine worth EUR 400 million, which is to include, among others: ammunition. - Ammunition is what Ukraine needs most in its defense - he said, quoted by the Bild daily
>>59601862... why can't the fucking germans just build a few hundred leo2s per year and send them to Ukraine instead? Even Russians can manage that.
>>59601862>s indicated by reference to data published on the German government's website, Ukraine received only 10 of the 110 promised Leopard-1 tanks, 12 of 18 Gepard tanks and 850 pieces of artillery ammunition.https://www.bundesregierung.de/breg-en/news/military-support-ukraine-2054992>Delivered military support to Ukraine:>20 main battle tanks LEOPARD 1 A5*>46 self-propelled anti-aircraft guns>18,510 rounds 155mm ammunition (before: 15,510)
>>59602381so Der Spiegel just makes shit up?
>>59597992A lot of 'nazi' military songs go much further back than the nazi period. Erica I grant you is from 1938, but there is nothing whatsoever political about the lyrics. It's a little like claiming anyone singing or liking Dixie is a traitor in USA.
>>59597729it would not be so bad as realistically they dont have any hostile invaders next to them as long as burgerland still exists in its current form. Without that the closest you get is poles getting fun ideas The real fucked up part is refusing to ramp up their military industry because its LE HECKIN NAZZZIIIIIIII while having one of the most fucked up gun laws in EU. STILL they try to maintain their dominant share of EU defense procurements while pulling every string they can to not let outside competitors like koreans get a foothold in the EU market. Competitors that are willing to facilitate tech transfer for local logistics upkeep (maintenance, repairing, contructing new units, R&D) which is very valuable when you need to use said weapons for TZD and cant wait for permission to fire every shell from Berlin its like dealing with a fucked up bipolar retard that one part is still a militarist at heart while the other part has been brain washed guilt tripped into active self harm pacifism. To the detriment of the entire neighborhood
>>59597729>mmuh nazi complex meme preventing krauts from having decent armyDon't look into the Bundeswehr during the cold war.It's more a mix of peace dividend and political mismanagement of the Bundeswehr that led to the decline not only internal but also on a societal level.
>>59597477as far as I understand it; these 10 were the ones that the ukrainians trained on that were ground down. but I also could be wrong
>>59603430AAAAAWAY DOWN SOUTH IN THE LAND OF TRAITORS...
>>59600176>Why would these even be offeredOption 1:no tanksOption 2:150 not great tanks
>>59603386More like they dont do good checks what is written. Just like >>59603393 , >>59598187 stated thing was a problem of not checking or believe things that sounded constructed/unbelievable.
>>59600176105mm is still a threat even to russian tanks. there was a good reason why early Abrams had 105mm at the time. 105mm had better ammo at the time than the new 120mm. it depends on what ammo they are given. M900A1 should have no issue penning older russian tanks that make up the largest portion of russia's tank fleet like T-72B/B3 and T-80B/BV/U
>>59597729>betting their survival on AmericaBecause it is a solid bet. America isn't going to let anyone invade Germany. Simple as.
>>59600176If the design sucked, the US wouldn't be scrambling to make their own version.
>>59597729The nazi time left the biggest mark on germany. People see it as a responsibility for it to never happen again. So germany should never again look threatening or dangerous. We regularely have discussions wether we even should have a military. And everyone else is not helping, when grmany is even the slightest bit militaristic or nationalistic then its immediately "Oh the nazis are back.". You even had people pull out that rhetoric when it became clear that germany would essentially be the leader of the EU. It is absolutely a mental disorder on a national level. Germany has been conditioned to think that way.
>>59604822If only we could do the same with russians...
>>59604849The Russians have two disorders even. They are terribly afraid of being invaded cause the mongols raped them, so they always wished to expand to easy to defend natural borders. And the other is that they used to be an empire and now cannot cope with it that they no longer are powerful.Russians are probably too fucked and from an efficiency standpoint it would be easier to completeley eradicate them.For germany it would probably require everyone else to stop yelling nazi at the slightest inconvenience. Though if you really want to make germany happy, let them do just industry, no army, just make equipment for everyone else.
The REALITY was and still is that Germany doesn’t NEED a military — not for actual defense. Why? Because they KNOW the US will defend them. And being honest, what’s wrong with that? If your ally is by far the strongest nation on Earth and they have major bases on your territory do you really need to run your own military?
>>59600176Decent fire control system and thermal gun-sight. That last bit is important to remember since the quality of Ukraine and Russia's tank fleet varies a lot. From reasonably well modernized Soviet shit pieces with western electronics for their optics on the high end, and the literal soviet era shit pieces with no thermals(or even passive night vision) on the low end. Leo 1 is under-armored and under-gunned, but it's better as a night fighter than a lot of the tanks currently in use in the war on the basis that you *can* fight with it at night.If you go by the Oryx loss data for example, it would seem that only under 20% of the T-80 tanks Russia uses are the upgraded ones with thermals.
>>59597477>>59597537explains why he went to greece and asked the leopard 1s..
>>59597729> Be German autist > keep the 149 year slave contract with USA> Be tired> Be weaker then Swiss.> Be anexed by Swiss> Germany GMBH BTFO> Seceed from Swiss per Swiss consitution> Be freeAnon this Is winning strategy
>>59603386Spiegel is a left-wing political magazine. They aren't shy when it comes to cherrypicking their info if that allows them to shit on a non-SPD government.
>>59605537>Russia should just surrender.FTFY. It's the losing side that does the surrendering, retard, and 10 clapped-out Leo 1s aren't changing that Russia is losing.
>>59605233How many T-80 did they lose in those time frames?Isn't the BVM the best tank they have?
>>59605820Hundreds to thousands.>Isn't the BVM the best tank they have?Pretty much.Also, that giant pile of T-80U is basically entirely 4th Guards Tank Division getting repeatedly kicked in the crotch. T-80U is all but extinct in russian service since the Kharkiv counteroffensive.
>>59597729>i can understand mmuh nazi complex memeYou shouldn't base your understanding of reality on memes. The Leo1 is not a particularly complex machine.
>>59601704>None. It's embarrassing.Hint: OP lied.
>>59598065Even more so when you're getting random shit from 20 different manufacturers
>>59602189Who's gonna pay for that? You?
I hope they didn't immediately drive the tanks we gave them into a fucking minefield.
>>59601704>It's embarrassing.10/110 tanks being clapped out after they spent 20+ years in disposal storage (IE, not even monthballed, but stored with no regard for future readiness) and then were heavily used in training is embarassing?
>>59605505Joke is that they shit on SPD constantly too. Your black-white thinking is limiting. They just go full Gutmensch because that is the trend in news media circle.
>>59605820>How many T-80 did they lose in those time frames?Oryx currently stands at 665 T-80's of all types lost. >>59605820>Isn't the BVM the best tank they have?Bit of a tossup between it and the T-90M. T80-BVM can reverse speed worth a damn, but T-90M has an independent thermal sight for the commander. Neither are tanks that a Leo-1 would want to go up against. But neither tank is really all that ubiquitous among the Russian tank forces. [spoiler] It sorta annoys me that Perun lumped the T-64 in with the T-62/T-55 on the short-bus. [/spoiler]
>>59606489It would be interesting to know how many tanks are counted in each bar instead of the relative numbers.Russia lost less tanks in the past few months because they don't have as many left.
>>5959818Oh, it's the magazine that had a cover of a nude child model somewhere
>>59604385Leopard 1 might not be able to use M900. The M60 was not approved for use of M900 and some of the earliest produced M1s couldn't either because the breach couldn't handle them. DM63 would still be an option, or M833, or the plethora of other L7/M68 compatible ammo out there.