I was idly thinking about the obsidian bladed south American club type weapons, has anyone got any detailed information on how these were used? Were the blades particularly sharp, was this capable of performing cuts analogous to how one would use a sword etcOr was it simply used in a very club-like fashion and was rather blunt bladed?
noits a jungle monkey weapon that is inferior to blades in every way. I would bet most of these were discarded after a battle when their "teeth" broke off its like wrapping a baseball bat in barbed wire. it looks scary but cant cut deep enough to do anything
>>59594806Obsidian is super fucking sharp, like sharper than a razor. The only problem is it's very brittle, so the blade chunks would've needed to've been replaced regularly. There are Spaniard accounts of these things being used to cut the heads of prisoners clean off. It was used like a club but inflicted sword-like injuries. The natives didn't wear armor (with a few exceptions being thick woven plant material, but this was rare), so these things were absolutely fucking deadly
Against an unarmored opponent they were based. Against Spanish armor they were useless.
>>59594806You swing it sideways (bladewise) like swinging a baseball bat.
>>59594806It was a VERY sharp weapon with one account stating that a horse was decapitated with one.My understanding is that the flat side was often used to beat down an individual so that he could be taken alive to be ritually sacrificed.
>>59594838Well surely it would inflict concussive force injuries? It's still a club, a blunt weapon, for e concentrated through the stone blades, in sure it would be effective Vs armour as far as a club is concerned
>>59594806>>59594828It's a hardcore club which will bash the shit out of any opponent. They liked a particularily brutal form of warware and remember: no metal armor at all. It's like a cutting bat - a sword bat? Even if the blades get dull or break off you still have your war club.>>59594828No, the bat with barbed wire is terrible because it gets stuck on the enemy. This won't stick. >its a jungle monkey weapon that is inferior to blades in every way. That's always the wrong way to look at things, as weapons that come later are always superior technologically. For the time period, for the tech development, it's the best they could do and an effective weapon.
>>59594806>Hit someone>Blade cuts him>Blade breaks the very momentIt's the prime example of why these south- and middle american """cultures""" were uncivilized, uncreative, unintelligend fucks that deserved extermination. They didn't have the wheel, they didn't event even the most basic metallurgy outside of turning gold into jewelry.Seriously: Everything is better than using thin sliced of a highly brittle rock. Today one might use razor blades and call it a day.
>>59594838>Against an unarmored opponent they were based. Against Spanish armor they were useless.I believe it would actually be a good close combat weapon, as a war club would knock men off horses, break ribs, kill or maim horses. The issues is that the Aztecs had no counter to guns and horses. Horses were these giant demons and they hadn't developed tactics to handle horse charges so they scattered. Societies would develop these tactics over decades after losing, but the Aztecs just didn't have enough time. So they never GOT to that part of the fight. Yes, with some re-working and training even with their tech development, you COULD make the Aztecs much better fighters.
>>59594968You'd want more mass concentrated at the end for concussive force. The Spaniards weren't particularly heavily-armored, so these things still posed a threat.The atl-atl was similarly regarded with respect, there are anecdotal accounts from the Spanish of them unhorsing armored men and seriously dimpling their breastplates. They were quite lethal where they found flesh.
>>59594968Well sure, but remember that the Spaniard has a musket and a steel saber. The Spaniard has also been training in martial arts since he could walk, and has been eating hearty healthy food stuffs compared to the jungle dwelling native (Most of the first Conquistadors were noble-born, basically knights). That's not to say the native couldn't hurt the Spaniard, but the Spaniard had every advantage.
>>59594969Obsidian usually won't dull due to its physical properties, but it will sheer and shatter. This meant the teeth had to regularly be replaced, but broken teeth were often still a menace even so due to still being razor sharp.
>>59594998>So they never GOT to that part of the fightSo the Spaniards beat their opponent before the real struggle even began. That's just good sound strategy and tactics right there. Granted, the diseases brought by the Spaniards did most of the heavy lifting. But 1v1, the Spaniard was a better fighter, and the natives never would've caught up.
>>59594998The issue was more that the Spaniards got literally everyone to rise against the Triple Alliance, who were feared and despised utterly. Disease was an important (if unintentional) weapon, too.
>>59595000>>59594968While the spanish had technological superiority, remember they had very limited numbers. So it was still dangerous for them to fight. Against the aztec and the inca, they actually employed a lot of native auxiliaries who hated their imperial masters (only to replace them with the spanish, oops).
>>59594806so the blades would be used to strike at joints and parts of the body unprotected by armor, thus rendering combatants incapacitatedContrary to popular belief, the blades were pretty firmly held in place by pine glue and would only be replaced periodicallythe macuahuitl could also be thrust and catch flesh between the teeth like a saw
>>59594969>Muh sharper than razor bladesJust look how far it protudes from the wooden part. That's not even an inch. And since that shit is so awfully brittle and thin it's not even guaranteed you will cut your oponent in a meaningful way before this shit breaks.>Be scary proud Aztec warrior>Shit your nonexistent pants when you see Spaniards on horseback>Shit your nonexistent pants after you got some spanish germs>Shit your nonexistent pants when they fuck your entire society up with a few hundred men who got horses, METAL armor and gunz. I seriously fail to see a reason why anyone would glorify these people.
>>59595025>parts of the body unprotected by armorWhat armor? These people did not have any form of metallurgy
>>59595000Triple Alliance warriors were usually nobility, too. Their empire was an extraction empire and they lived extremely well at ruinous cost to their subordinated settlements. Which is part of why it was so easy to raise them against their masters.
>>59595024Overall, the Spanish did still prove to be better overlords. The Portuguese rather less so.
>>59595024And the Spanish with their vastly inferior numbers still annihilated the Aztec and Inca. Wiped them out. They're gone. What is your point? There is simply no alternate timeline where those jungle folk made it out alive.
>>59594998Ultimately the Aztecs two biggest enemies were diseases that annihilated their abilities to bounce back from losses, and the fact that they pissed off all the other natives so much that they sided with the Spanish. If they could have really unified their section of Mexico, they could have at least traded space for time and learned how to counter the Spanish. Similarly by the time the Spanish showed up in Peru, the Incan Empire had collapsed from a massive succession crisis, meaning the Spanish' job was already done by the time they showed up.
>>59594806
>>59595017I know, the Aztecs were just kinda screwed because these weird aliens with superior and alien weapons came down and the Aztecs couldn't adapt properly. The first nations in the Americas just got screwed over by their geographic alienation. Horses, rapier, bucker, muskets, metal armor (often not worn due to the heat), all trounce Aztec weapons. unit cohesion is nowhere since they panic and don't know how to handle this. Drills and counter-measures would allow for unit cohesion and let the Aztec numbers work.it's not like they have automatic weapons or gattling guns like later colonial powers did so you CAN just overwhelm them with numbers and accept big losses. To make them have any chance, you'd have to train them, create spears to counter horses, and somehow try to steal as many guns and horses to try to make some advantage. You'd have to make some makeshift chest armor to try to bunt the effect of firearmrs. I think the Phillipino natives created something effective against small rounds.
>>59595037The Spanish gave us MexicoThe Portuguese gave us BrazilClearly one of them fucked up
>>59595031they did use padded armor similar to gambesons called ichcahuipilli.These people weren't stupid, they understood that wearing armor during warfare increased chances of victory.
>>59595061
>>59595037True. Encomienda was probably somewhat worse than the incan system. But no human sacrifices. And mestizos integrated.>>59595038Are you retarded? What do you think my post is saying? Also, no they didn’t. Millions of people still speak nahuatl, mayan and quechua. Those who speak spanish in Latin America today are direct descendents of the native people + europeans + some africans. It was very different from what happened in English colonies, basically just a change of government and religion more than anything.
>>59594806>south AmericanThis is exclusively from mesoamerican aka mexico aka tip of North America.Incas had some bronze and copper weapons but mainly used stone.
>>59595073
One thing about mesoamerican weapons is the existence of the atlatl alongside the bow. Why did they keep using it?
>>59595037>>Spanish "chads" fragmented into 9 small countries.>> Portugueses "virgins" stays unified into one europe-size big country."But.... They were better warlords".Anon................
>>59595017The Aztecs already had a disease problem.I think I read somewhere that around 1/3rd of the inhabitants of what is now Mexico City had tuberculosis before the Spaniards arrived.Couple this with another issue: The Aztecs were not well liked by the surrounding nations and tribes.These other natives were eager to assist the Spaniards with toppling the Aztec empire and they provided things like porters to carry Spanish supplies, guides to lead them along trails, etc.The other tribes basically handled the Conquistadors logistical issues for the chance to stop having their loved ones thrown on altars.
>>59595071One?
>>59595084>Millions of people still speak nahuatl, mayan and quechua>basically just a change of government and religion more than anythingAnd those troglodytes live under Western-style governments, pay taxes, wear Western clothing, consume Western media, use Western currency, and observe Western social and political practices. The Inca and Aztec societies were wiped the fuck out. They ceased to exist. They ceased to exert any power or influence on people. They are gone. Never to return. Their histories were burned. Oh some shit-poor hill people in Central and South America still speak a bastardized version of the Inca and Aztec languages? whoopty fucking doo. They still speak French in Canada, and it's not a French territory. There are 20+ widely spoken languages in China, but good fucking luck identifying 20+ discernible different cultures, they all clamor to identify as Han. Lakota, Shawnee, and Apache natives in the US still speak their languages on reservations, but their culture and society is fucking gone. Completely consumed by Western superiority, because Western society blows those stick-swinging natives out of the water 1000 times out of 1000. Just changed the government and religion? That means that changed, dominated, and dictated the entire fucking society, and for the better. Those Aztec and Inca savages still practiced mass ritual human sacrifice in a time when there was gun powder and printing presses. Stop being a bleeding heart liberal revisionist. The superior Spaniards came in, conquered the savages with ease, eliminated their society, and the world is a better place for it.
>>59595137>The Aztecs were not well liked by the surrounding nations and tribes.This isn't emphasized enough in the pop culture circles. People HATED the 'Aztec.' They were an evil empire of bloodthirsty thieves who quite literally decreased the standard of living on an archeologically-noticeable level. They did not content themselves merely tithing ruinous quantities of goods, but had such a profane proclivity for human sacrifice that to this day it stretches credulity.Apologists for the degeneracy of these people will claim such nonsense that it was an honor to be ritually murdered, conveniently forgetting that most of these victims were extracted via war or forced enlistment from subjugated settlements. Even ritualistic battles were rigged such that the victim had no chance, armed as he was with feathers. The founding myth of this culture involves an act of betraying hospitality and the ritual murder of a defenseless woman. They got what they deserved. Hell, they should've gotten worse.
>>59595125It's a reliable weapon, just like the sling and the staff-sling.
>>59595163
>>59595178>They got what they deserved. Hell, they should've gotten worse.Based.I think part of it descends from the "noble savage" b.s.Just like the idea that natives in what us now the U.S lived some sort of idyllic life and were so honorable that they never broke any treaty or truce, which is an outright lie.In the case of the Aztecs, they were a nightmare to live anywhere near and their subjugation was a requirement for the region to ever advance beyond the Stone Age.
>>59594806The main objective of that kind of weapons was to injure, not to kill.The whole point of war in mesoamerica was to capture prisioners, so later you can sacrifice them to huitzilopocthli (the god of the sun, he needed the blood as food so he can fight against the darnkness and start a new day)Also>all this spaniards were superiorNope, the spaniards had small numbers, and their technology was irrelevent with those numbers, what they did was to ally with the aztec enemies, so at the end for every spaniard they had like 10-15 indigenous allies
What faggots often fail to understand is that the macuahuitl was, by design, an incapacitating weapon and not a lethal one. It's not only a club that can break bone but any cuts it does make would be extremely painful due to all the obsidian shards and splinters it would leave in the wound. Looking at the length of the blades it's pretty obvious it was not designed to chop off bits, the Spanish account of them being able to decapitate horses is bullshit, but it could definitely fuck up anyone struck with it without necessarily killing them. It's a perfect fit for mesoamerican cultures and their ubiquitous slave trade.When we consider that mesoamerica did know how to use copper, as evidenced by the tlaximaltepoztli copper axe (not to mention all the gold), the idea that the macuahuitl was somehow the best they had rather than a weapon with a specific purpose is absurd.
>>59595202You are a faggit for having such a childish image saved on your computer
>>59594806>Were the blades particularly sharp, was this capable of performing cuts analogous to how one would use a sword etcThe blades were extremely sharp. At the same time you're not looking at a single, straight and continuos edge here. The small gaps between the pieces may introduce drag, the transition from stone blades to wooden body certainly will, the blades taken off of a blade core will be slightly curved (when viewed edge-on, not in profile), etc. All of this taken together means that despite the exceptionally sharp edge of the stone parts the overall cutting ability was likely not quite as good as metal blade. But as long as the stone edges survived though (probably only one impact) they could inflict severe cutting wounds and after that, well, you still have a club.Some testing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjN6zdktD4AHistorical overview and a test: https://www.mediafire.com/file/8pcd7x9i1364yjq/The_macuahuitl%252C_an_innovative_weapon_of_the_Late_Post-Classic_in_Mesoamerica.pdf/filePerhaps of some note is that we see somewhat similar ideas elsewhere in the world as well, here area few arrow or spear heads from Sweden, set with small flint edges.>>59594838>Against Spanish armor they were useless.Few conquistadors had any metal armour to speak of, even less were wearing it, turns out its kinda warm in Mexico. On the other hand textile armour gifted or taken form the locals seem to have been pretty popular.>>59595137>These other natives were eager to assist the Spaniards with toppling the Aztec empire and they provided things like porters to carry Spanish supplies, guides to lead them along trails, etc.Plus troops. One perhaps not so well known episode of Cortez adventures in Mexico is that he and his Spanish forces had to flee Tenochtitlan at one point. It was only with a large local army that he could return and actually conquer the place. Had the Aztecs not been so hated, well, it would all have ended in between there instead.
if i tap my hot mug of cocoa then mesoanon shall appear in a puff of smoke
>>59594968one of the problems with them is that when you hit hard enough to start causing serious bludgeoning damage tough the armor that the Spanish wore. The obsidian will flake and even shatter reducing the power of the blow. At witch point a regular round club with perhaps hard stone studs would do better.But you can still use it to go after the un-armored and lightly armored parts of the spanjard you are fighting
>>59595027just soi shit, there's whole Cracked listicles about how awesome these cavemen's sharp-rock clubs were. I think it might have been the same listicle where they were talking about the native American 'mounds' (giant piles of dirt) that were so amazing, and how American natives TOTALLY made it to Europe in canoes centuries before Europeans made it to Americabasically just them jerking their weird little boners over amazing Indians and white man bad
>>59595367Underaged post.
>>59595071I'm honestly not sure which one you're referring to
>>59595070It's said the Incans got into contact with Polynesians and started trading chickens and pigs with them just before the Spanish started. It would have been interesting how things may have developed if that started kicking off a couple centuries earlier.
>>59595073>using shark dentures as a weaponLiterally just fucking develop metalworking. Why were brown societies so primitive?
>>59595000these were still very early muskets. how many shots would you be able to get off before a motivated opponent closes on your position? apart from psychological (and ease of training) effect, you'd fare better off with a slingshot or a bow that is just as or more accurate and can fire faster, especially if the numbers are limited and volleys not as devastating. back then pikes were just as importnant as shot
>>59595939>your motivated opponent becomes unmotivated with a .76 caliber lead ball in his gut>your slingshot rocks bounce off my metal armor>your stone tipped arrows bounce off my metal armor>you lack any effective counter to a 12ft long pike>and look, we've a line of 40 12ft pikes>those who survive the volley and the pike line are cut down by my metal saber, and the metal sabers of my homies>my homies and I have trained in hand-to-hand combat and sword fighting since we could walk>your only combat experience is slaughtering defenseless native tribes people who didn't pay the human sacrifice tax to your many heathen gods>you have only thatch woven "armor" >you have no defense against my viruses>you are terrified of my horse, and scatter at the sight of itThose savages got what they deserved. Survival of the fittest.
>>59596022i was just discounting the firearms used back then but you are really underestimating the threat posed by natives. if you really think helmets are some kind of alien technology then put on a metal pot on your head and ask your friend to throw a rock at it.
>>59596106The results of how history actually played out speak for themselves. Spaniard had helmets, body armor, metal swords, pikes, horses, muskets, cohesion & coordination, and individual superior fighting ability. The Spaniards won. End of story. Anyways back to the OP, it's a neat weapon, would be very effective and intimidating for home defense. I'd love to try using it for hog hunting.
>>59595178>The founding myth of this culture involves an act of betraying hospitality and the ritual murder of a defenseless womanTell me more
>>59595907They were busy inventing showering, unlike the spanish
>>59596129The spaniards won because they ally with aztec enemies, not because they wore helmets.>individual superior fighting abilityTop kek, aztecs were by far better warriors. They trained to take down and incapacitate their enemies, and thats way harder than stab them with a sword.
>>59596129>Spaniard had helmets, body armor, metal swords, pikes, horses, muskets, cohesion & coordination, and individual superior fighting ability. The Spaniards won. End of story.Lolno, the Spanish were massacred, chased out and grotesquely humiliated until they came back with an army made up of all the other Mesoamericans that wanted to kill the Aztec and even after that they never conquered Mexico, they moved in to live with the natives, unlike the French and English who did conquer in North America.You are completely out to lunch
>>59596129>Spaniard had helmets, body armor, metal swords, pikes, horses, muskets, cohesion & coordination, and individual superior fighting abilityMidwit take ripped from guns germs and steel. Arquebuses and breastplates are not magic wunderwaffe, they can’t overcome a 10:1 manpower advantage and they’re not why the spanish won.
>>59596204>>59596219>>59596238same fagthe spaniards won, that means they are the superior fighters
>>59594806just get a machete you autist
>>59596287Thats the equivalent of saying: "the soviets won WWII, they are superior fighters"
>>59596315by 1944/1945 they were
>>59595367
>>59596287Try again, you’re just retarded
>>59596362sneaky partial phoneposting samefag
>>59596287>the spaniards wonThe Spanish were on the winning side. They were less than one percent of the army that took Tenochtitlan.
>>59595907>digging in the dirt for special rocks like a mutt>using the fresh kill of the day to make a badass weapon that shows your prowess as a hunterprimitive, you say?
>>59596387>Americans didn't win WW2 they were just on the winning side because they didn't make up the majority of the side that one
>>59596129https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Noche_Tristelol the spaniards almost got fucking annihilated and survived through sheer dumb luck
>>59596427>almostBut they still won. They had better cohesion, better coordination, a better proto-industrial capitalist society to back them. The natives never stood a chance. Total savage death.
>>59596393Yes, PRIMITIVE- No written word- No wheel- No metallurgy- Massive human sacrificesEuropean people had been further ca 2000 years B.C. So yeah. Savages, troglodytes, cavemen
>muh superior Aztec warriorThey were curb stomped by the Spanish cavalry in Otumba when they tried to face them in an open field pitched battle, despite having a massive numerical superiority (including the Tlaxcalan allied to Spain).>The Aztecs, meanwhile, had not encountered Castilians in battle, despite their long exposure to them during the Spaniards' time in Tenochtitlan. They were unfamiliar with the use of troops mounted on horses as shock troops and were taken aback when mounted Spanish soldiers continually charged at them. For all of their numbers, they were unprepared to endure cavalry charges>Spanish success was also thanks to Cortés' strategy; he had instructed his troops to strike primarily at the captains and leaders of their opponent. Cortés himself recognized the Aztec leader Matlatzincatl for his rich armor, headdress, and flag. He correctly assumed that defeating their leader and capturing their flag would result in the defeat of the Aztecs. He communicated his idea to his captains and led a charge for Matlatzincatl, followed by Gonzalo de Sandoval, Pedro de Alvarado, Cristóbal de Olid, Juan de Salamanca, and Alonso Dávila. Cortés attacked the Aztec leader with his lance, and the rest of his captains broke the ranks of the warriors around him. Matlatzincatl was slain by Juan de Salamanca, who retrieved the Aztec battle-standard and delivered it to Cortés. With their leader slain, the Aztec force diminished gradually, and the Tlaxcalan and Castilian warriors routed them.
>>59596498>>59596511These are learned anons who speak the truth. All the other opinions in this thread are from leaking liberal revisionists
They won because God was on the side of the SpanishThe Aztecs were vile, demon worshipping savages who had to be cleansed of their evil ways.The Spaniards brought gunpowder, firearms and steel, along with horses, Catholicism, and civilization; with these they were destined to win. Ignore the ooga booga coming from the seething brownoid shitskin injuns in this thread.They are only a quarter White and thus much closer the beasts than men.No matter, in several generations perhaps they'll be bleached enough to qualify as something approaching a human being.
>>59595907Those swords were developed by pacific islanders you retard. I don't know where they'd even find iron or metal to work with
>>59594806Padded textile armor is quite resistant to blunt force trauma, however the razor sharp obsidian would cut it open and any flesh it meets. It is not easy to land a heavy blow against a skilled opponent, as you might see in YT videos of dorks chopping a piece of pork with it, the obsidian meant that lighter opportunistic strikes had more effect than a regular club.
>>59596805They found a few nails and such from pieces of shipwrecks that drifted on their shores, but nothing to really work with
>>59596498>- No written wordbasically Chinese
>>59596498>-No wheelThey had wheels, but they had no draft animals. No horses, no oxen, no buffalo, no nothing. Tenochtitlan was built on a swamp, boats were the most efficient way to move anything.Obviously there was no way the Aztecs were going to hold against Spanish invasion but their society was a lot more advanced than you give them cred it for.
>>59594806so these were mostly for, as everything was back in the time of Aztec dominus and tribal warfare, for taking prisoners. The reason they have short, stubby blades is to not kill you in one swing, although that could occur, but rather to fill you with an immense desire to not be hit again, as then you would be taken captive and sacrificed
>>59594806>>59594969>That's always the wrong way to look at things, as weapons that come later are always superior technologically. For the time period, for the tech development, it's the best they could do and an effective weapon.These also weren't supposed to be used for killing, they were used for maiming. Soldiers were rewarded and promoted based on who they were able to capture so they could bring them back as slaves and sacrifices.
>>59594828I wouldn't want to be hit with either.
>>59596511That was the biggest problem for the Aztecs, only their leaders could make the great sacrifices necessary to appease the gods and so without them their otherwise brave and self-sacrificial warriors had no reason to be there. If the Aztecs had their own version of the Holy Communion their warriors would have fought on believing god is still watching and judging them and the conquistadors would eventually suffer from fatigue and be overwhelmed, including the horses in that heat.Often sociological quirks are overstated as factors, but here we see one that actually had a profound effect on history.
>>59596908Post an archeological example of the pre Columbian savages using a wheel
>>59596985wheels are basically self-evident, it is the most meme of "inventions", it is far more difficult to start a fire than to carve a wheel out of wood
>>59596985Why are you so resistant to learning?https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/the-concept-of-the-wheel-in-ancient-mesoamericaYou'd like reading this, it's all very interesting.
>>59594806Meme weapon. People love to point to the account of that horse being killed, but if they were so good at killing horses why didn’t they proceed to wipe out Cortez and his men when they were ridiculously outnumbered and only had a handful of horses? Give me a spear any day
>>59597008Damn Disney was never original.
>>59597008>>59597033I said PRE-Columbian
It was a rotocentric culture, let's not pretend like they never thought about rotation.
>>59597060>>59597033>Pic 3: Wheeled whistles and figurines manufactured in the 8th century A.D.Your worldview is shattering.
>>59596805Nips figured it out.
>>59597008>carve a wheel out of wood if you have sand and cordage and water you don't even need to CARVE that shit you can just abrasive saw log rounds out of downed trees, which people have, forever .>verification not required >it was revealed to me in a dream
>>59597033checked and >mexican wheels pic related thanks for sharing
>>59596511>the Spanish cavalry in Otumbalmao you left out the part where they were running away, got fucking rolled, and only "won" because the Aztec commander slipped in the mud and accidentally epired, leaving enough time for the Spanish to run away>>59596498lmao literally everything you wrote is wrong except for the human sacrifice>>59596714>God was on the side of the Spanishlet me put itn simple terms. In North America, the white man came and colonized the continent, and they're still there today.In Mexico, the Spanish came and settled on the continent, and now we have Mexicans, and the Spanish are gone. I think it's abundantly clear who won
>>59597072Too bad they never thought of a better use for the wheel than childrens' toys and calendars for more efficient devil worship. Even an ultra-isolationist and reclusive culture like the Japanese were centuries technologically more advanced and instantly grasped the value of European technology.
>>59597147>it was revealed to me in a dreamI believe you implicitly, but I'd like to see it happen, I know bronze saws often used sand as an abrasive to cut stone, but never heard of cord and sand used to cut wood and it is difficult to imagine, is there a YT video demonstrating this curious process, maybe you can make one
>>59597201You may not know this but the Aztecs also instantly grasped the value of European technology but instead of playing baseball they got slaughtered and it might adapting hard to do.
>>59595024>they actually employed a lot of native auxiliaries who hated their imperial masters (only to replace them with the spanish, oops).>chop off live baby dicks to sew a baby dick suit, to appease the cloud God Xmklxklhaineyho >Reee why do they want to replace us with the lesser of evils
>>59594832Deadliest warrior (the T.V. show) had a specialist claim that the macuahuitl could slice through a horse's neck.Dan Marcaida was impressed when it actually did that.
>>59597201
>>59595070the Phillipino's answer to small rounds was mind altering substances.the U.S. switched to the .45 and the problem was solved. this was before the 1911 btw.
>>59595070>create spears to counter horses,You never have to spear a llama. They were completely unprepared for horses.> and somehow try to steal as many guns and horses to try to make some advantage.Apache style
This is a good thread. I love meso history.
>>59597138Japan is a little bigger then Tahiti
>>59597138Start digging.
>>59596805Even Pacific Islanders, especially Melanesia had access to copper ore. They were just too stupid to use it on account of being brown.
>>59594969>No, the bat with barbed wire is terrible because it gets stuck on the enemy. This won't stick.This is something only zombiefags who have never hit anything in their life say.
>>59595024>only to replace them with the spanish, oopsWhat do you mean "oops" they were literally happy to install the Spanish as their gods because these masters didn't flay their children alive and wear skin suits made from them.What do you think they wanted, a modern liberal democracy? They were just cave men that didn't want lunatics to eat them any more.
>>59598015I mean life under the Spanish definitely sucked. Just not as much as life under the Aztecs.
>>59598033>I mean life under the Spanish definitely sucked. Just not as much as life under the Aztecs.Then it didn't suck. Living under the Aztecs is basically the universal measuring stick of whether life sucks or not.
>>59595125Atlatl-like "javelin launchers" (most of them made out of leather or rope) were widespread until the Roman Empire phased them out. So given the tech level in mesoamerica, well, yep. It's about the same if you ask me. They simply never unlocked proper ranged weapons. (Their bows were merely self shortbows barely fit for hunting by european standards. Their only viable ranged weapon was unironically the sling and very few could use it.) Same as these glorified clubs. Prehistoric tech means prehistoric weapons.
>>59598033>I mean life under the Spanish definitely sucked.Compared to what?
>>59597033he asked for pre colombian WHEELS not pre colombian WEB DESIGN>https://www.mexicolore.co.uk/aztecs/home/the-concept-of-the-wheel-in-ancient-mesoamerica
>>59594998I'm too lazy to cite exact passages from it, but Ian Heath's "Armies of the 16th century vol 2. The armies of the Aztec and Inca Empires, other native peoples of the Americas, and the Conquistadores" gave a pretty good assessment of the Spanish-vs-indigenous warfare. I'd have liked citations for each specific claim rather than just sources at the end, but it's still good.Rejoice, I can ust copy and paste the text.>From the moment that the first one was put ashore onHispaniola in November 1493, however, horses were thekey to Spanish success in the Americas. They gave theSpaniards not just distinct tactical and logisticaladvantages, but a morale advantage too, because theIndians, who had never seen such creatures before, wereinitially scared to death of them. Their importance issummed up well by Girolamo Benzoni, who, following thedefeat and death of governor Diego Gutíerrez of NewCarthage at the head of an all-infantry force, observed that‘if we had possessed but four horses the Indians would nothave fought, for they dread this very spirited animal morethan all the arms that the Spaniards have used against them.So that they say publicly, it is not the valour of theChristians, nor their arms, artillery, lances, swords, orcrossbows that have subdued them, but the fear, the fright,inspired by their horses. And we know this by experience,for in every place where the Spaniards have not beenaccompanied by horses they have been vanquished by theIndians’. (Cont)
>>59598176Actually fuck this it's too much text to copy it all. But basically the horse is the key asset.
>>59598200tl;ldr the horse was king, sword really good, guns did not matter much. I don't think it's listed in this section but I believe the Floridian indians or some continental USA ones learned quick how to fight the spanish - duck before they shot or hide behind trees and then go fuck em up. After all, the musket was pretty much trash versus the comanche savages until Samuel Colt came along and saved the day
>>59596143NTA but quick summary. Aztec history starts with the "Long Migration", basically the aztecs were so unbelievably dickish they were forced to migrate because their neighbors kept trying to kill them until they managed to get to a literal island on a lake to be isolated enough they were left to fester.According to their history before this period they were underlings of the Colhua, another tribe, and got so strong the Colhua decided to propose an alliance, which the Aztecs agreed. Now, most mesoamerican peoples were feudal so the Colhua of course offered a marriage as was customary. But see I said MOST. The Aztecs weren't feudal. While they had a nominal emperor, the Aztecs were a theocracy. Basically, like the Pope, their Emperor was considered the representative of their real leader. Huitzilopochtli, god of war. So when their deranged little brains were handed the Colhua princess to prepare her for the wedding with "their leader", they didn't understand "dress her up to marry your enperor", as the Colhua meant. No. What they understood was "ritualistically butcher her, cover a whole room with her entrails, eat her meat, make a suit out of her skin, and send the high priest to the court wearing it and claiming to channel her spirit... So... That's what they did!Needless to say the Colhua were murderously mad about this silly misunderstanding and promptly tried to kill them all. But sadly for central america, the rats managed to flee.
>>59598313god sent the Spanish to stop the abomination that was emerging in the Americas
>>59594806Obsidian is absurdly sharp, with proper swings these things would definitely cut deep enough to kill, or at the very least incapacitate you long enough to be dragged off to have your heart ripped outhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjN6zdktD4Adamaged blades would be replaced and if you somehow found yourself without any it's still a giant chunk of hardwood you're swinging around. I think the Aztecs were one of the few objectively evil civilizations to exist.
>>59598221>FloridaYah turns out ganking people in the swamp is extremely effective.
As I understand it they actually evolved from axes. Flint (and obsidian) axes have a single piece at the top. Macuahuitls were basically when you started adding more blades down the "haft" to give you a broader cutting edge, eventually evolving into these cricket-bat type weaponsArmour was also much lighter in mesoamerica (partially due to heat, partially due to available material), so the weapon was more effective. Functionally they were used as clubs that offered the capacity for a very lethal first few blowsThey were an interesting solution to weapons development given the resources available, but would probably have been abandoned in favour of metal if the Aztecs had survived. Hell, the Purepecha were already going that way when the Spanish showed upThe defeat of the Aztecs boils down more to disease and political instability (the Aztecs were not kind to their tributaries, so the Spanish found it easy to make allies), although Spanish weaponry was a very effective force multiplier. The Inca had a somewhat similar problem, though their instability was due to poor legitimacy from conquests being so recent.
>>59598313>basically the aztecs were so unbelievably dickish they were forced to migrate because their neighbors kept trying to kill themSounds familiar...
>>59598964They were, however, also terrible at finance.
>>59597190>Spanish are goneThe rich people of Mexico are the descendants of the Spanish and almost everyone in Mexico is half Spanish.
>>59598015They were happy for a short time. Meet the new boss.>>59598055Esl? There are things that suck that are not as bad as human sacrifice. Living in the rain sucks.
>>59598147Compared to not being the untouchables in a new caste system and hacienda economy.
>>59595027>>59595654You guys are just basement dweller faggots that try to find a political angle in everything. The Aztec warriors were cool brave warriors and fought till the very end. They weren't afraid of fighting the invading forces head on, even when they were outnumbered.
>>59596022Actually if you read about it, the Spaniards ended up using lighter cloth based "armor" due to the heat and humidity. And no, they didn't run away from their horses upon sight lol. But of course you're fatass tried turning this into some racial argument calling them savages even though the Spaniards would burn people alive for an accusation of witch craft. The Spaniards at their PEAK couldn't even defeat their neighboring European nation despite being the richest country in the world with the most amount of resources. I'm not defending the Aztecs completely because they were bad toward their neighbors too. But don't pretend that the Spaniards were holy and infallible either lol. Retard.
>>59595654Not everything is a competition chuddie normal people can appreciate both a symphony and a pop song
>>59598360God isn't real lol. I know you're a Christ-fag, but I know I could be a better Christian than you if i did believe that shit. If I had to bet, you're probably a cherry picking faggot that chooses which Bible verses are literal and which are "out of context" or "not meant to be taken literally" whenever it conveniences you. You probably sin all the time, but then just pray really quick because "muh forgiveness". You lack discipline.
>>59598160KEK
>>59598360*sends the pedophile empire to clean up the cannibals*The Spanish did some nasty shit back home too btw. I assume you don't care about that though.
>>59598313>send the high priest to the court wearing it and claiming to channel her spirit...lmao poor guy. Bet he was just standing around confused in his footsie pajama people-suit like "What did I do?" while the room went absolutely apeshit
>>59596445>The natives never stood a chance. Total savage death.It wasn't native against Spaniard it was Spaniards leading all the non Aztec Natives to victory over the Aztecs.It wasn't a story of how whites beat natives, it was a story about blessed brownoids would be to have a white master to serve.
>>59599208I dont see that option on the list of things that could have happened to them, sorry.Compared to what realistic outcome?
>>59594806They were an attempt to imitate the sea faring atlanteans swords when the tec was lost after she sank they had stories of there arms passed down so they tried to replicate the sword.
>>59597339How many drugs have you done and what injuries have you been able to withstand while on them? Bc it really doesnt work that. Some people are wretched enough to grit their way through maiming, and long term drug use can contribute to this process, but no is ignoring bullets bc they smoked a coca leaf.
>>59599097>everyone in Mexico is half Spanish.>Mexicans are half whitelmao do you hear yourself
>>59596978>Often sociological quirks are overstated as factorsbut they shouldn't be. people only do this because they cannot imagine people so different from themselves
>>59596315The soviets were superior to the Germans and would have won without allied intervention or help.
>>59599900Khrushchev and Stalin were of the opinion that the Germans would have beaten the Soviets without allied lend-lease. The exact translated quote from his memoirs reads: >"If the United States had not helped us, we would not have won the war. One-on-one against Hitler's Germany, we would not have withstood its onslaught and would have lost the war. No one talks about this officially, and Stalin never, I think, left any written traces of his opinion, but I can say that he expressed this view several times in conversations with me.">http://militera.lib.ru/memo/russian/khruschev1/28.html
>>59594832thanks for providing the actual answer here, anon. there wasn't quite the right mix of raw materials in the region to make even bronze so swords weren't an option. but behold the power of volcanic geology! obsidian will *fuck* you up when honed, like it's mind-numbingly sharp
>>59595852Chickens, sweet potatoes and pigs ended up in both Polynesia and South America ahead of European colonization b/c the Polynesians were that OP at sailing and the Inca were formidable as hell. pretty cool imo
>>59599720I never said that but if you consider Spaniards to be white I guess you yes
>>59596919>Man, I'd rather get my heart ripped out than get whacked againSus
>>59598313>What they understood was "ritualistically butcher her, cover a whole room with her entrails, eat her meat, make a suit out of her skin, and send the high priest to the court wearing it and claiming to channel her spirit... So... That's what they did!Imagine that poor girl, excited for her wedding, and out turning to confusion and then horror as the knives come out. God and the Spanish were too kind to the Aztecs.
>>59595017Most of the natives hated the Aztecs, they were happy to sign on with Spanish to overthrow them.
>>59598932>though their instability was due to poor legitimacy from conquests being so recent.That goes for the Aztecs too, their empire was only 70 years old or so when the Spanish showed up, and was a politically unstable alliance to boot.
>>59594806In all honesty the cutting obsidian is probably insignificant in the overall weapon damage. Probably just wacking someone over the head with the club is just as bad. Especially in a primitive jungle battle. Rather have a long stick with a sharp piece at the end.
it's pretty cool
>>59599240h-ha yeah you're right sorry
>>59601711>In all honesty the cutting obsidian is probably insignificant in the overall weapon damage.Well, think of it this way, it turns what might be a glancing or awkwardly shallow hit (which with a club can mean you did effectively nothing) into this long bloody gash that, while easily fixable with modern medicine, the caveman you're fighting has no good way to treat. A scrape might become a foot long wound, shallow sure, but a practical death sentence long term. It also gives you options if your enemy manages to press in on you and you cant get a good swing.
>>59594806Macana's fascinate me, but they and Caribbean warfare are subjects that interest me. I've never actually looked into it tho. The gunstock warclub is also another comparable weapon.
>>59606766It's spelled Mackuhuwhatill.
>>59606766Gunstock clubs are fucking kino and massively underappreciated. Them and ball clubs.
>>59595699Right? If you're trying to prove that the Spanish were better overlords, you'd probably use Chile as your example.
