>dooms your armyOkay, shitposting aside, if the Persians hadn't found out about that little goat path, how long could the Greek coalition have realistically held out at Thermopylae? My impression is that they were already essentially at the end of their ropes given that most of their weapons had already been smashed to the point of uselessness and the Spartans were literally fighting Persians with their bare hands during the final battle.
>>59591940middle easterners love the goat so much for winning them that battle that they have had sexual relations with them as thanks forever after
The movie 300 taught me to never trust cripples.
>>59592657it was supposed to teach you not to trust ugly people
>>59591940>My impression is that they were already essentially at the end of their ropes given that most of their weapons had already been smashed to the point of uselessness and the Spartans were literally fighting Persians with their bare hands during the final battle.Wut? I'm literally going to go and get Miltiades and Herodotus and xheck wtf you're talking about.
>>59592657>>59592680The thing is the actual traitor was neither of those. Just your regular every day traitor.
>>59591940I don’t understand how it has come to be that retarded propaganda produced 2500 years ago by a barbarian fringe underculture against a civilized and enlightened empire continues to dominate the imagination of imperialist Americans to this day
>>59592657He wasn't a cripple
>>59592693There's some mention of them running out of weapons, don't remember which source it was. Basically spearheads breaking off, swords getting dull (remember, while steel was a thing it was mostly iron blades) and stuff.
>>59593226brown hands wrote this post
>>59593261Wrong. Now fuck off and die
>>59593274Anon if that's supposed to be some kind of gotcha, those hands are brown. You're not white.
>>59592693Only some of the city states were shitholes though, but it is funny people idolize the worst of them, Sparta. Also as much as people jerk off the Achaemenid empire for being "enlightened" for it's time, like banning slavery, most distant regions in the empire basically de-facto continued to trade in slaves anyways because the Persians didn't have the resources to stop it and didn't want to risk pissing the natives there off making it basically a throwaway gesture.
>>59593299I don’t have a single brown person in my entire extended family. The only possible exception is my wife’s grandfather who was Hungarian. Now is when you kill yourself.
>>59593309>posts brown hands in an attempt to "gotcha" me>tells me to kmsLol. Lmao even.
>>59593349Shut up loser.
>>59593365It's a blue board so I'll refrain from calling you what you are but you know exactly what you are.
>>59593349Are you Hungarian? You sound Hungarian
>>59593383Shut up, Hungarian.
>>59593385>>59593393Hungarians are are lighter skinned than you are and they're still not white. Something to think about.
>>59593401I’m going to now toss this disgusting “gift” your fellow Hungarian gave me in the garbage. Fuck you and you miserable smelly poverty hole
>>59593413Do it, Hungarians are the lowest form of European anyway. Even calling them European is a stretch.
>>59593425Done. That disgusting asiatic race of scum is destroying my western half of the continent. I hate them so much
>>59593261>>59593299>>59593349>>59593383>>59593401Magyaroid btfo. Sic semper papricii
>>59593462You're the one that brough Hungarians into it, I'm calling them barely European brownoids, it's both funny and buffling how you concluded I'm one. Par for the course, nevertheless
>>59593501Shut up, Mughaloid. Go back to speaking your slimy whisperer tongue
>>59593501Kys pannonian subhuman
>>59591940>encounter entrenched enemy>go around themIt's basic military shit, that encounter wasn't even worth noting down for Persians
>>59593226I don't understand how it has come to be that this "le superior persian culture" meme has taken off. Actually that's a lie, I know that it's due to contrarians and SJWs. They want to disparage the birthplace of Western civilization either because muh democracy heckin failed, or because muh ebol whytee. The right man won in the end. Salamis greatest day in world history.
>>59593601I don't understand how it has come to be that this "le superior american culture" meme has taken off. Actually that's a lie, I know that it's due to contrarians and SJWs. They want to disparage the birthplace of socialist civilization either because muh democracy heckin failed, or because muh ebol yellow man.The right man won in the end. Tet Offensive greatest day in world history.
>>59593308Ah yeah, that's often how it goes isn't it.
>>59593611I accept your concession.
>>59593601Come on. They were more advanced and civilized in every way than the Greeks, who were a bunch of squabbling barbarians at the end of the world. That’s what it was at the time and acknowledging this shouldn’t give you an inferiority complex and trigger some reaction against the wokes or whatever. It bears no meaning on what has happened since. It’s just historical accuracy.
>>59593437>Throwing it in a clean trash bag for a pic so he can pick it back up. Lmao
>>59593632Are you retarded? Do you not take out the trash every evening?
>>59593629>They were more advanced and civilized in every way than the Greeks, who were a bunch of squabbling barbarians at the end of the worldI don't see any Persian advantage. They all were on the same tech level, just different clothes.In the military tech Greeks were actually more advanced with their hoplite and falanx that had no answer, and which together with Macedonian lancers later conquered Asia for Alexander the Great.
>>59593629>lose on all fronts to an enemy that seemed insignificant>continue to gloat about its supposed insignificance for 2500 yearsWas it autism?
>>59593654Persians had>(some) freedom of religion>advanced irrigation >postal system for the largest empire in history at the time>highway system for the largest empire in history at the time>The largest and most peaceful empire in history at the time>refrigerattion technology >the most advanced esthetic gardening culture in the world>fucking windmills>agriculture capable of supporting enormous cities>cities with a bigger population than all of GreeceGreeks had>wine>olive oil>phalanxCome on bro
>>59593664This happened to the Greeks themselves later on in the form of rome, then happened to Rome in the form of the Huns, goths, franks, and vandals (several times), etc etc. all empirical cores eventually get destroyed by their periphery. There have been many books written about this
>>59593711So what? What kind of retarded cope is this? No one is going around crying that Rome the way you are about the Greeks.
>>59593718All I said was the Greeks were primitive barbarians at the time compared to the Persians. No idea why your brain Interpreted it as assault.
>>59593274>open up 4chan for a morning browse with coffee>get wristmogged by an insane European schizoWell fuck this day already
>>59593733You will have to eternally cope, I don't know what to tell you. Persia lost. No one goes around coping that the Romans were heckin backwards barbarians when the Greeka lost to them.
>>59593777I’m sorry if it offends you but this is literally the historical truth. And yes people often mentioned it about Rome and Greece, including the Greeks and even the Romans themselves!Not to mention the word “vandal” foe example still carries that connotation today because of how crazy the disparity in cultural advancement was between them and the empire they destroyed
>>59593794>try to destroy a burgeoning civilization>drastically underestimate their capabilities, fail catastrophically at every level>this is just like the heckin vandals Jesus Christ, what cope. This wasn't the Greeks being the random beneficiaries of a decaying empire, it was a straightforward victory.
>>59593817The discussion wasn’t about why they lost, just about who was the far more advanced civilization. Stay focused.
>>59593849>Moving the goalposts this hard
>>59593849The entire reason they lost is that they bought their own "muh superior culture" propaganda the way you're doing right now.
>>59593851This was the discussion all along>>59593856Could be. Doesn’t mean they weren’t the superior culture. The mongols conquered China despite being illiterate droolcases compared to the Chinese civilization. Sometimes that’s just what happens. The periphery destroys the core. Civilizational advancement and technological superiority doesn’t always translate to the battlefield
>>59593309Your skin is literally brown, you are a brown person in your family
>>59593874Again, you're just taking the decline of a decaying civilization and comparing it to the Persians losing at their height. Not the same thing. Also, it's not just some inevitability that leads to eg. the Chinese losing to the mongols. It's centuries of neglect. They harried and controlled the steppe peoples at their height, they were fully capable of it, they simply abandoned their efforts. I don't know why you simp for decadence so much.
>>59593629They were technogically outmatched by the greeksGreek hoplites carried broze shields while the Persians used wickerThe Athenian ships that smashed the Persian navy were able to do so because they were faster, lighter and more manuevreable than their eastern counterparts
>>59593777NTAHe is correct, Persians were very close to Babylonians, Egyptians and Indians which made them very advanced compared to Greeks that were literally nothing outside 2 islands during the Bronze Age and after its collapse, Hellas was recovering slower than any other civilisation in its vicinity. It took a barbarian to finally kick the Greeks onto the world stage and they still could do nothing about it after he died and they were promptly assimilated by superior Rome one by one.They were superior in mathematics and sciences to most but their civilisation was weak and most of the things we attribute to Hellas was just regional things that happened over 700 years in hundreds of city states that got bunched up together trough the millenia.
>>59593916I ‘simp’ for ‘decadence’ because I recognize the significant things about civilizational advancement like religious tolerance and clean water and advanced technology. That’s literally it. It’s not a moral stance.
You can smell the muslim spices itt
>>59593932Also something I missed that I will now quote directly from wikipedia>By the late 4th century BC as many as half of the over one thousand existing Greek cities might have been democracies.So the greeks were more politically and socially advanced than the Persians as well because as we all know democracy is an inherently superior form of government
>>59593932Could be. But the Greeks were not technologically superior. They had a better martial culture perhaps. Perhaps an inherent advantage against a landbased archer based army. Not really saying anything about their actual technological capabilities (bronze wasn’t something the Persians really lacked)
>>59593967Theory of war is a technology, if the Persians had the ability to equip themselves like the Greeks and didn't, then they were technologically inferior in the exact same way as the soviets where when they decided that precision guided weapons were a fad
>>59593966Late fourth century is a hundred years later and Greeks were far more advanced than before by then. Closer to the Persians. Btw, same person and state that ended the Persian empire ended all those democracies (Alexander) literally within a few years of the date you cite so it’s not a great argument here
>>59593979Could be. Doesn’t change the fact that like the mongols conquering China, they were a primitive barbarian group compared to the Achaemenid empire
>>59593943Cultural advancement is not a raw good inherited from the last guy and hoarded. That's WHY empires fail. Cultural advancement is a process, and when it stops, the guy who is culturally advancing is going to do it all over your ass. The Mongols as in the example were ruthless barbarians yeah, but their technical battlefield prowess and their ability to assimilate various cultures and absorb their best technical aspects was something the ailing Chinese couldn't touch.
>>59594011Perhaps. Doesn’t change the fact the Chinese were indeed more advanced, as were the Persians.
>Brownoid is simping brownoid empire while coping hard>/k/ entertains an actual discussion with the brownoid instead of grabbing the pork laced ammo The world has truly gone to shit.
>>59594017>people enjoy a lively and entertaining discussion about history>culture war addict /pol/tard comes in to turn the discussion into his race play fetishI hate you people so much
>>59594015Again you're still mixing the idea of decaying empires losing their grip with the Persians falling on their face at their height, it's not the same thing. And to get at the crux of the cultural issue, the Persian system died with its empire, while the cultural impact of Greek civilization is still felt across the globe to this day. This is the ultimate cause of Persian seethe.
>>59593991You idiot, I've just given you multiple examples of the greeks being more advanced than the PersiansThe Persians were the primitive barbarians in this scenario, and that is why they lost
>>59594044None of that changes the fact that Persians were the more advanced civilization and Greeks were a peripheral barbarian nation. Like I said before, what happened later is unrelated to that historical fact.
>>59594052The fact that the Greeks had already built cultural institutions by that time that would go on to influence the bedrock of Western civilization means they were not so backward.
>>59594046>the Persians were the primitive barbariansThat’s exactly what I disputed. Thanks for making it clear. I don’t agree with this and I don’t think anyone does or should, outside of perhaps people educated by propagandists from 2500 years ago who don’t recognize that.
>>59594027I fail to see how you posting drivel and getting continuously told off constitutes entertainment. Furthermore each post you make solidifies that there's little to no value discussing anything with you because you're a seething brownoid. Literally a waste of time. >>59594044>>59594046>>59594052>>59594062The whole thread is this on repeat. Oh and you showing us your brown hands.
>>59594062The Persians had far more grand and sophisticated cultural systems at the time. What would happen later is a different story. But at the time, the Persians were superior in that department.
>>59594073I think you’re confusing me with several other people but since I think you’re a despicable and miserable person I’ll say I agree with all the people you’re angry at
>>59594075>is "grand and sophisticated">goes up against a new system with less embellishments but different underlying assumptions and crumblesThis describes scientific and technological history over and over again. It's the definition of advancement.
>>59594085>No it's not just me posting the same thing again and again, it's multiple people, I swear.
>>59594095>fanfictionWhere’s the part where you have sex with me>>59594094Could be. But the point still stands that just like the Chinese were more civilized than the mongols, so were the Persians to the Greeks, in my humble opinion.
>>59593932>Greek hoplites carried broze shields while the Persians used wickerCould be because greek hoplites were rich aristocrats while the persian footsoldier was a peasant. I bet elite persian footsoldier had bronze (and likely was ethnically greek, persians were horse lovers)
>>59594106The other anon is doing rather well countering your shit but I know that this is a completely pointless discussion because your mind is made and you're discussing in bad faith. You are literally posting variations of the same shit like a broken record. >Muh Persians more advanced than the Greeks>Muh western propaganda>Muh Mongols and Chinese
>>59594137I’m not talking about “western propaganda”. I’m talking about the Greek account of the wars being anti Persian propaganda. You have a serious problem dude.
>>59593983The first Greek democracies emerged in 500BC and those same democratic institutions survived Alexander's suppression to re-emerge after his death, making then noticeably more robust than the more primitive governing institutions of the Persian empire which never recovered from Alexander's conquest
>>59594152Alexander and his successors governed largely thru the existing Persian built institutions. The ruling dynasties changed but the system and institutions remained until late Roman times and even past that
>>59594166Anon re-read his post, you aren't even disagreeing with it
>>59594166And yet the persian empire never existed again after his conquest, despite greek democracy immediately reasserting itself following his deathThere is a clear trend here of the Greek system being more advanced
>>59594178It did? The Parthian empire was a kind of successor and then the Sassanian empire was a complete Persian empire. These are way after Alexander
>>59591940The land battle was lost once the naval battle was. Traitor or no, they weren't going to hold out any longer
>>59593183>>59592657There was no "Greek patriotism" there were just a bunch of Greek City States that all had their own agenda and a LOT of them were actually pro-Persian because Persia's beef was with the major Greek City States (Athens, Sparta and Thebes) in particular and these minor City States wanted Athens, Thebes and Sparta to be put down a notch or two. The Persians did not intend to conquer Greece, it was a punitive expedition to punish Athens and Sparta for attacking culturally Greek settlements under Persian protection and raiding them.You know... a lord defending their vassals from aggression. It was the morally just thing to do in that case. If your own towns get raided you send over an army.Pretty much everything Homer writes about the Persians is Zigger tier projection: there was little slavery in the Persian Empire while Slavery was running RAMPANT in Greece. The Persians also had freedom of religion and the Persian Emperor was simply a "king of kings" (especially since the word equivalent for "emperor" didn't exist yet). Meaning: all the individual kingdoms making up the empire still had a large degree of autonomy, they simply had to pay tribute to the emperor. While Greek style conquest was very much about cultural subjugation.Essentially anything negative he attributes to Persians applied to the Greeks in truth.The funny thing is that the Greeks "won" autonomy for Greek cities in Asia in the Persian Empire... something the cities already had. Basically everything the Persians gave the Greeks was something that didn't cost the Persians much to do. That is something Alexander the Great found out when he invaded Asia Minor under the guise of "Liberating" the Greeks in the Persian Empire: none actually WANTED to be liberated, they were cool with being part of Persia. Which put the entire cause for his invasion into jeopardy.
>>59594273Not homer. Herodotus you mean? But yes you’re right about all that
>>59594273>homer >ziggers operate on the same logic the greeks did (????)>persian dindus>there is no achaean identity which Alexander leaned on hundreds of years laterPersians installed tyrants on behalf of the Eastern Greeks! in the past the Eastern Greeks even lobbied for Sparta to fight for them.>No mention of the Ionian RevoltThe most /int/cel post I've ever seen. The Delian league offers far more autonomy than the Persians ever did. Any revision Persians get nowadays is proxy to socialists and brown spite. Never step foot in Europe or America.YWNBAW
>>59594376>Any revision Persians get nowadays is proxy to socialists and brown spiteThe thread is rife with it. Look, the vast nature of the Achaemenid Empire, similar to other large historical empires, required a decentralized approach to governance. This decentralization was not because granting freedoms and respecting cultural practices was end in itself but because it was a practical necessity given the empire's size.
>>59594396No. They were explicitly giving freedoms that the directly preceding Babylonian and Assyrian empires did not. They carried out a fundamental change in governance and a new imperial philosophy
>>59594410The fact that they gave these concession and freedoms does not necessarily mean that it was an end in itself is my point, not that they didn't give them.
>>59594461Also to note, the Assyrian Empire, while large, was smaller than the later Achaemenid Persian Empire in the same region. Unlike the Achaemenids, the Assyrians controlled territories that were closely connected in the Near Eastern world, making their governance more manageable despite cultural differences. In comparison, the Achaemenids had to unite culturally diverse regions, which was a more challenging task.
>>59594461It wasn’t decentralization. It was to create a different vision of empire, which was far more effective and peaceful, hence better
>>59594461>>59594477And of course all these things are beneficial to the imperial core, they wouldn’t be done otherwise but the reasoning wasn’t decentralization or weakening the imperial core. The idea was stabilization. The core was just as strong as ever
>>59593632He didn't want it touching the other garbage.
>>59594492It was also because the Persians did not rely on vassals for direct food shipment, but rather used a superior modern system of monetary payment as vassalage. Again, more advanced civilization
>>59591940>Okay, shitposting asideHow could you lie like this OP?
>>59594477Describing the Achaemenids as a completely tolerant and multicultural state is an overstatement. Sometimes, in an effort to counterbalance certain historical interpretations, there's a tendency to swing too far in the opposite direction, either exaggerating or idealizing some attributes.Things like complete cultural freedom, religious beliefs, and the mixing of diverse groups on equal terms may seem much more appealing to modern people as they are closer to a modern multicultural state, but such an approach would create an overly positive caricature that is essentially the opposite of what you accuse the Greeks of doing. The Achaemenids were ready to resort to brutal actions when they deemed it necessary, including executions, population deportations, conquering foreign territories, sacking cities, and destroying temples. Being in the path of their empire was never a pleasant experience.
>>59594544I agree fully. Just pointed out that being a more efficient, rational, and planned empire they utilized a less brutal conception of empirical exploitation alongside their numerous other civilizational advances.
>>59594507>the Persians did not rely on vassals for direct food shipment, but rather used a superior modern system of monetary payment as vassalage. Again, more advanced civilizationThat is an extreme simplification and idealization of the actual system in place. Again, an overly positive caricature.
>>59594568No. It’s one of the several reasons why they did not resort to outright conquest, mass enslavement and wars of annihilation at the periphery. It’s not at all a positive portrayal nor is it intended to be one.
>>59593299Anon you need to touch grass. There's a thing called getting a tan.
>it's another "muh multiculturalism" persian cope episodeIf tolerance is so good why didn't it win?
>>59594560>>59594568>>59594581I like how I'm trying to have a rational discussion about overly positive caricatures of brutal empires and you're unable to form a sentence about the Persian empire without a multitude of positive adjectives attached, kek.
>>59594609You can handle it I’m sure
>>59594581>reasons why they did not resort to outright conquest, mass enslavement and wars of annihilation at the peripheryWhat. Are you forgetting that Darius expanded the empire greatly? He conquered lands from the Indus River in the east to Egypt in the west, and started the first persian invasion of Greece. What is that if not outright conquest?
>>59594637It’s not outright conquest in the Babylonian or Assyrian sense. If it’s confusing then maybe a different word is better for it.
>>59594647To be clear: the Persians did resort to outright conquest in the nearest areas to the core. But in the periphery, control was less severe.
>>59594647Ah it's not conquest, it's conquest. Gotcha. We're just gonna move the goalpoasts again.
>>59594661Correct. If it’s too difficult for you, don’t engage.
>>59594609Diaspora nationalists are the least nuanced people on earth.
>>59594666No, but this is what I've been saying from the start, that you're discussing in bad faith and that therefore this is pointless. Though I guess this makes my attempt less pointless because it demonstrates that I was right all along.
>>59594673I don’t think I’ve ever even met a Persian/Iranian/whatever
>>59594673Correct, brownoids doubly so.
>>59594647The confused ones are the pro-Persians, and they've been confused for thousands of years. Confused that anyone could desire to resist and confused that they could do so successfully. The arrogance is unfathomable and has resurged in support of modern academic arrogance which carries the same confused notions underlying its behavior.
>>59594691I’ve been stating my opinion. You’re getting awfully personal about it but I just don’t care. Make all the declarations you want I concede all personal arguments
>>59593226Meanwhile, I understand in the shade.
>>59594718There's nothing personal about it, I'm merely calling you out on your bullshit. If tht's "awfully personal" then online discussion might not be your calling.
>>59594673I don't think it's a result of ethnic Persoids. I've seen this sentiment creeping into the mainstream as a revisionist backlash. It's literally seethe that the Greeks were giga chuds and Persians, being self important, effete, and on a "mission of tolerance" at the end of a spear, represent how they view themselves.
>>59594762Glad you were able to cope with it.
>>59593274Post nipples to settle the debate
>>59591940They could hold out as long as they had weapons and men with a desire to use them, just like any other war.The Persians would have won there either way, the goatpath only accelerated the inevitable.
>>59594766More blatant propaganda. How do people fall for this shit lol
>>59594273Blatant /chtg/ poster
>>59594955How is it propaganda when you can literally see the narrative being enforced in this thread?
>>59595028It’s literally propaganda written by the Greeks 2500 years ago. This is known by everyone. I’m not talking “secret nwo propaganda” I’m talking actual literal propaganda intended to influence the way the Greeks saw themselves and thought of themselves, written 2500 years ago. Gigachads vs effete Persians isn’t real history. It’s retarded nonsense for brainwashing the youth.
>>59595105>’m not talking “secret nwo propaganda” IWhat the fuck are you talking about? I'm talking about mainstream characterization, not whatever shit you made up in your head. >Gigachads vs effete Persians isn’t real historyYou clearly struggle to read, or think. I am not describing the "real history", I am describing the mindset with which your cohort approaches the subject. I didn't say chads, I said chuds, aka the modern effete thinker's main (largely fictitious) adversary.
>>59595168No idea what you’re talking about or what your problem is. Don’t care for the culture war nonsense sorry
>>59595193>don't care, respond anyway>misrepresent the argument, get corrected, get angry because you willingly engaged in a discussion you don't care about?
>>59595200Sorry Buddy. I just don’t care.
>>59595215sure. feel free to not interject with another dumb post.
>>59595220I’m sorry it bothered you so much. It wasn’t on purpose.
>say something>someone replies to you>when you engage them, this person puts their fingers in their ears and begins loudly proclaiming that they don't care, but doesn't stop responding to you?
>>59595241he thinks you're me
>>59593274>posts A white handwe on /k/ subscribe to the shrodingers nigger theory. All posters are black until you post the time stamp.
>>59595241He thinks you’re me
>>59595258I'm still confused why you keep replying.
>>59595271Sorry for that too.
>>59595241It is I he thinks you are.
>>59595241Me, he thinks you’re
>>59595241He doth reckon thou art I
>>59594273>The Persians did not intend to conquer Greece, it was a punitive expedition to punish Athens and Sparta for attacking culturally Greek settlements under Persian protection and raiding them.>You know... a lord defending their vassals from aggression. It was the morally just thing to do in that case. If your own towns get raided you send over an army.The first Persian invasion of Greece was a direct response to Athenian support of the Ionian Revolt (Sparta ironically enough refused to support the Ionians even when offered enormous sums of gold, leading them to turn to Athens instead), so more comparable to a proxy war that got out of hand and spiraled into a direct confrontation between the Greek city states and Persia.It didn’t help that Athens and Sparta had killed the Persian ambassadors sent to deliver terms to them (turns out that 300 didn’t entirely embellish the “This is Sparta” scene).Later incursions were driven by the Persian desire to avenge their previous defeats.