Why was the British defense against Japan so fucking terrible?You have endless stories of commanders just abandoning their troops and out and out routs against numerically inferior Japs who, contrary to legend, also had absolutely no jungle fighting experience and who were making amphibious assaults against entrenched positions.Particularly, non-white Commonwealth forces just got flat out abandoned.I get that the men in Asia were extremely under supplied and didn't have much hope of relief, but the same was true for the Yanks who inflicted huge losses on the Japs and doggedly defended their doomed posts. US forces were still slugging it out in Corrigador half a year after the garrison was doomed, with almost no food and ravaged by disease. That's even with Macarthur being a full retard who overruled subordinates pleas to begin stockpiling food for a potential need to retreat to the peninsula and withstand a siege.UK forces didn't cover themselves in glory in France either, even though the French are mainly at fault for the rout (granted in a few places the French did make heroic last stands that cost the Germans).But then in North Africa the UK did alright. What made the Far Eastern garrisons so embarrassing? It's surreal contrasted with the bravery of the RAF during the Battle of Britain or even Burger efforts to defend against overwhelming Jap advantage.
>weak bait to get the Brits arguing for you
>>58343273the naval taskforce that was supposed to prevent landings got sunk
>>58343273To add insult, one of the only solid victories in the defense of the East was done by two Chinese divisions after the KMT decided it was in its interests to keep the Burma road open to keep US supplies flowing and sent them across the border. They actually conducted large scale counter attacks and routed some Jap formations before ultimately withdrawing and covering the British retreat in the face of superior forces.
>>58343314So hold out and inflict some serious attrition? The US was outnumbered 8:1 on Corrigador and still managed to inflict a higher number of fatalities before they were finally overwhelmed.
>>58343335>Churchill viewed the fall of Singapore to be "the worst disaster and largest capitulation in British history." However, the British defence was that the Middle East and the Soviet Union had all received higher priorities in the allocation of men and material, so the desired air force strength of 300 to 500 aircraft was never reached, and whereas the Japanese invaded with over two hundred tanks, the British Army in Malaya did not have a single tank.[66] it can be difficult to talk defenders into fighting to last man if no relief force gets promised
>>58343314They still had an entire fucking army and the biggest fortress in Asia against 2 jap divisions
>>58343273The stiff upper lip was going limp
>>58343389There is a difference between fighting to the death and the command going into headlong flight at the first sign of the enemy.The Japs and Americans offered stubborn resistance to each other, even when completely cut off, pretty much throughout the war.
>>58343526>Peter Wykeham suggested that the government in London was more to blame than any of the British commanders in the Far East. Despite repeated requests, the British government did not provide the necessary reinforcements and they denied Brooke-Popham – and therefore Percival – permission to enter neutral Thailand before it was too late to put in place forward defences.[73]also, having played lots of hearts of iron against human players with manual division control only, holding Singapore requires investment with forethought if you intend to hold it against determined attack, its a good place to setup forward defense against japanese because the peninsula is readily reachable from multiple british naval bases in the indian ocean>against 2 jap divisionsagain, if you know you're not getting relief and are reasonable sure the enemy numbers in hundreds of thousands soon its a very bleak outlook
>>58343625>In the post-war Percival Report (written in 1946, published in 1948) the "imminent collapse" of the water supply, estimated by David J. Murnane, the Municipal Water Engineer, on 14 February to occur within 24–48 hours, was highlighted as a direct cause for surrender.[82] According to oral history records, quoted by Louis Allen (author of Singapore 1941–42), Murnane asked for and was promised by General Percival "ten lorries and a hundred Royal Engineers" so he could fix the water supply leaks caused by Japanese bombing and shelling. He never got what he needed: Louis Allen says Murnane got 'one lorry and ten frightened Sikhs'. When confronted again, all that Percival delivered (on 14 February) was one lorry and ten Royal Engineers but it was too late.[83]
>>58343273Their land army historically was never very good. I mean, you have them telling legends building themselves up against literal spear chuckers while have metallic cartridge rifles. They regale the heroic victory against a doomed Napoleon while they hid on a reverse slope waiting for the Prussians. And they're hush-hush about uppity colonials basically running away until they were tired out and gave up the new world continent. Hell, the Scots and lowly Irish did most of the fighting, and now Britannia doesn't even rule the waves.I really have nothing against the Brits, but the only reason we know anything about their military history is because we speak the same language.
>>58343662>having played lots of hearts of iron against human players with manual division control onlyFuck off gerasimov
>>58343725I am thoroughly convinced I'd wipe the floor with the whole Russian general staff in either hearts of iron, DEFCON, Age of Empires II or Red Alert 2: Yuri's Revenge
>Yet another Armaard threadWhy even bother kek
Armatard, you have several of these threads up already.
>>58343625Brits out in the east lived like old colonialists. Even after Pearl Harbor they went on with a huge and expensive ball. It wasn't a serious post and they didn't feel like they were defending their homes based on all the oral testimony I've heard. The troops were also under trained due to war time deployments and officers of foreign forces often didn't even speak the language of their men. It's no surprise many Indian and other Asian soldiers turned on their commanders, either shooting them to escape or embracing the Japs out right.Really, the whole thing just showed how morally bankrupt the empire was. Lee Kuan Yew, 18 then, among many other Asians, recounts how the image of European superiority was forever blown apart by watching their "defenders," put to easy rout by the Japanese, leaving the natives to face horrendous atrocities. I've seen a few interviews note how the death of all the plants in the luxurious gardens of the Europeans was emblematic of the times.It is weird how France didn't get the memo on all this lol. They carried on with Algeria and Vietnam like it was still 1914.The UK in WWII as a whole is weird. Even with the Blitz you still had dock workers dragging their legs on increasing shifts for the war effort. WWI really did a number on its primary victors, although not as bad as WWII did on its losers (some small state National Guards could probably beat Germany's 60,000 man land forces) and Japan has a huge problem recruiting due to the lack of prestige given to military service.
Kek arma/warriortard has given up the US propaganda and targeted the Bongs instead when will he realise he should be arguing with a country on his level, such as Eritrea or Hati?
My grandfather went from India all the way to Tokyo, via Kohima. The japs were routed so badly that they would find them strewn along the roads and simply shook them to death to save bullets.
>>58343273Wake was not British.At Singapore you had the Brits having to defend the entire Malay peninsula (not just the city of Singapore) with basically 1 infantry division and no tanks. The Malay and Aussie forces were green conscripts with zero training, as were the volunteers.
>>58344085>Wake was not BritishThat's the whole point genius. To compare the disastrous surrender of Singapore to the Americans' hard fought defense of Wake Island. The British failed miserably during the early phase of the war with Japan
>>58344085You're being baited by a faggot shill ignore it.
>>58344132What is the point you are trying to make? At Wake the defenders had all the advantages. Coastal guns decisively trump similar calibre guns on boats, and the US had air power whereas the Japs had none. Meanwhile the balance of power was completely reversed at Singapore.
>>58343273Wasn't Wake a giant embarrassment for Japan?
>>58344149In the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor, the US was in no position to reinforce any of its distant Pacific outposts, let alone a tiny place like Wake Island. Wake Island was doomed, Singapore was not, but the defender of Wake put up a much stiffer fight than the British in Singapore
>>58343994>Defense was considered a massive embarrassment by the British at the time and by British historians.>"No, actually the British military did excellent. Anyone who says otherwise must be Russian!"
>>58343273Unsurprising. Brit military history is:>Lose to America, twice>Hide behind Russia and the rest of Europe as the best Napoleon, jump in to take credit.>Hide behind France as they beat back Russian aggression against the sick Ottoman Empire>Hide behind France as they defeat Germany, take credit.>Hide behind America and the Soviets as they defeat Germany, Italy, and Japan, take credit
>>58344149The brits outmanned the Japanese 3 to 1 in Singapore, were fortified and had fortified defenses and STILL got wreckedBy far England was the most useless nation out of the entire allies
>>58343273>Why was the British defense against Japan so fucking terrible?didn't read past this, how about the fact they were already engaged in a massive war you retard? If the British Empire wasn't at war with Germany they obviously would have done much better against Japan.
>>58344379Ah yes, the massive British land and sea battles of 1941...They had more artillery and men and fortified positions.Plus, the navy was supposed to be the best in the world and yet got raped by the Japan. In 1941 the Japanese navy was clearly the best in the world, although the US quickly caught up as it built experience and more ships, and Jap naval aviators the best bar none. Their torpedo hit rate shat all over the Americans.
>>58344379Despite the war with Germany, British forces in Singapore outnumbered the invading Japanese force. Their failure was due to incompetence and cowardice, not numbers or logistics
Not OP but i am very interested in this questionhow did the allies get fucking STEAMROLLED in the pacific in ground engagements despite seldomly being heavily outnumbered or outmatched technology wiseDid the allies simply like to pull out of places before logistics got strained to avoid "stalingrads", but got too autistic about it?
>>58343724Don't forget one of their most famous incidents is a foolish and pointless charge of light cavalry. This isn't some heroic last stand, this is akin to if the French celebrated agincourt for how brave their knights pointlessly charged and did fuck all. British colonial hubris reminds me a bit of our own chest thumping when it comes to the GWOT. Iraq 2001 has reasons to be proud but subsequently it becomes a lot more like a modern day version of the come out ye black and tans lyrics about zulus with bows and arrows while they had 12 pounders.
>>58343724>the only reason we know anything about their military history is because we speak the same language.And because they created the largest empire in human history and were the unrivalled global hegemon for a hundred years. A lot of arguments you can make against the bongs but historical/military irrelevancy isn't really one of them.
>>58344608Iraq 1991*.
>>58344572Japan had naval superiority and air superiority. Numbers don't tell the whole story. The Brits used a ton of Asian and Indian forces who they did not treat particularly well and who fell apart when the Japs came. The Japanese were able to hammer positions with naval bombardment and bombing runs while the Allies had trouble even getting food.The Malayan Peninsula was defendable, but small island bases were not. The Philippines was in between. Without MacArthur being worse than useless, it probably could have held out longer, maybe even a year, but that wouldn't necessarily be a good thing strategically. There would have been huge pressure for a rescue attack that would likely have been a strategic blunder for the US to attempt. As it was, the US quickly reversed the momentum at Midway and proved they could slug it out with the Japs under adverse conditions of Guadalcanal just fine.
>>58343273You have to take into account the forces that were actually stationed there: from the beginning those were second-rate at best, with the priority being Europe and Africa where they were currently fighting a war, not Asia where Japan was being a bit scary. Even after Japan attacked, the focus was still in Europe and Africa because holding Singapore didn’t mean much if the Suez canal was lost. Plus Asia is big, and the UK had lots of strategic depth there. That’s something they didn’t have in Europe and Africa.So it’s no wonder the best divisions with the best equipment were sent away from Asia, especially after Dunkirk where the UK lost a lot of its equipment by choosing to prioritize evacuation of troops over materiel. So you have these troops who are poorly trained, equipped, and probably poorly motivated. Then you get hit by the Japs. Say what you will, but they were *fanatically* motivated, and after their initial victories they pressed their advances like rabid monkeys, meaning the British colonial troops had to abandon what equipment they had and make forced marches just to be able to have enough time to set up a defensive line, otherwise the japs would overrun them while they dug trenches. So at Singapore, you had a lot of troops sure, but they were heavily demoralized from repeated failures, they had to abandon most of their MGs, AT guns, Artillery, etc, and completely exhausted after fighting or force-marching for days on end. With all that in mind, it’s no surprise that the most determined resistance in Singapore was put up by scratch units of local WWI veterans and Malays, people who were determined to fight for their homes, and in the case of the WWI vets, probably better training via their experience.
>>58344608The charge of the light brigade, while stupid, wasn't quite as stupid as you're making it sound.They were given orders to charge the guns, they looked at the guns and said, 'well this is suicide but orders are orders'. They charged the guns and just before they got into their range they had moved far forward enough for the enemies recently abandoned cannons to now be visible to them on a completely seperate hill.They had charged the wrong guns, and it was too late to turn around.It's the textbook example of the need for precise communication in war. From the commander's position he could see the Russians had abandoned their artillery and ordered the light brigade to go secure it. By the time the light brigade, who couldn't see the abandoned cannons, got the order it had become 'charge the guns', so they did.
>>58343526Singapore was not a fortress. AT All. No one ever spent a second making it one either. That's the Joke
*coughs*
>>58344085They outnumbered the japs and we're on the defensive. They were pathetic.
>>58344728>They had more men and they were defending, that’s an automatic winDoes your entire knowledge of warfare come from fucking civilization 5?
>>58344674thanks bruv
>>58344572Japan was honestly superior at the beginning. Veteran troops, a modern doctrine, literal unbreakable moral, and local logistics. Only once the allies could bring an even more modern method of war, and superior logistics to bear did japan begin to be crushed. Could you imagine being some colonial conscript paid nothing treated like shit and expected to take a fucking charge from a Japanese imperial guard unit. Now how about take a twelfth charge after a month of forced marches and daily bombings, and nightly terror attacks. The Japanese with any momentum were pretty unstoppable. The issue came the moment enemy artillery or airport could shatter that. Then infantry is just infantry again.
>>58344621Mongols, just as large land wise and a slightly larger proportion of the world population. Also Qing China is the most populous country to ever exist as a percent of the planets population.
>>58344749Huh I never implied they should have won, in fact I posted multiple times in this thread about how they had absolutely no chance as winning asn Singapore wasn't even a defensive city. But have fun putting words into my mouth. Not being able to win and losing like a bitch are completely seperate events.
>>58343273>this is definitely bait butThe Japs had four divisions - two elite, two regular - and had trained for months in jungle warfare and reconnoitred Malaya thoroughly. They had tanks, wings of fighters and bombers, and naval supremacy.The Brits had one colonial garrison division, two divisions of Indians and one brigade of Australians. The Indians had been formed mere months ago and hadn't completed training. The Australians were equipped with about a third of their weapons, and all of them had only small arms and light guns, and not enough of them.The numbers given in Wikipedia are understated for both sides. However, the balance of COMBAT forces is as above. The rest includes support units (Japanese) and colonial admin (British).Pop history and Brit propaganda has made much of the Battle of Malaya, but it wasn't really that instructive for a student of military operations. The Burma campaign is much more interesting.
>>58344823>They outnumbered the japs and we're on the defensive. They were pathetic.So what did you mean by this then?
>>58344823>they had absolutely no chance as winning asn Singapore wasn't even a defensive city>they were patheticYou need to be beaten up by a gang of huge 6 feet tall niggers and then told you're pathetic for not winning.
>>58344706that's in 1945 after England got their shit together, had a shorter logistic trail coming from India compared the Japanese, and whittling them down slowly over a couple years.
>>58344881>over a couple yearsThis begs the question what the fuck the Japs were doing over the same period.The bongs learned, they didn't. And that's why "adaptability" is one of the least cited but most decisive traits in combat.
>>58344891Japs had been busy in China since '37
>>58344790>just as largeIf you ignore the 10+ million square kilometre difference, sure.
>>58344903So? The British were busy in Europe and Africa since '39.The Japs had lost the initiative by end 1942. Their great offensive lasted less than a year really.
>>58344572colonial postings aren't desirable so the quality of dudes you get there isn't going to be high
>>58344891If adaptability means the greatest industrial power by far joining your side, then I guess.
>>58344674>The Malayan Peninsula was defendableHard noThe Malayan "Peninsula" was basically one giant island with 1,600km of coastline. The interior is mainly plantation, jungle and mountain other than the key coastal roads and two or three passes. Roads dictate logistics support, but combat troops can infiltrate through the countryside. It is basically as bad as Nam.Singapore island is that as well, but smaller, about half the size of Oahu. In 1942 it was also mostly plantation, with a small city of 1 million at the south end. The trouble is that it has no food supply and the British lacked weapons. Unless you're willing to slaughter the civilian population, surrender was really the only option.A comparable island in WW2 is Okinawa, the taking of which lasted 3 months. But the Japanese had stockpiled weapons there, the Japanese defenders were three times the combat strength of the British at Singapore, and the fanatical fighting ended up killing half the Okinawan populace.
>>58344964No. Adaptability means changing your tactics to the terrain, and to counter the enemy's tactics. The IJA rarely did; the British made great changes in how they fought, and ended up the true masters of jungle warfare by war's end.
>>58344621I said land army, that the naval thing went sideways is a different argument. I'd probably praise the ANZACs more in the more "recent" conflicts, but the British army was always a last, last second to the navy. Which is kind of shitty how the British navy basically has two LHDs that they call aircraft carriers and nuke technology we gave them for their entire national defense.I actually do like them though. It's just kind of a sad affair to see an empire in decline. Don't worry, we'll catch up with you soon.
>>58343273Because they stripped the east of forces for this rather big war happening in Europe. The east was undermanned and what men were there were 2nd rate retards not fit for battle in North Africa.
>>58344421>Ah yes, the massive British land and sea battles of 1941...What is the Atlantic and Mediterranean campaign
Why was killing civilians so common in WW2?
>>58343724>New model army>7 years warLmao, retard
>>58344260>In the immediate aftermath of Pearl Harbor, the US was in no position to reinforce any of its distant Pacific outposts, let alone a tiny place like Wake Island. Wake Island was doomed, Singapore was not, but the defender of Wake put up a much stiffer fight than the British in Singaporehow was Wake doomed but Singapore not? Neither outposts were capable of being reinforced. The only difference was at Singapore the attackers were on land, could be resupplied, and had local sources of water and food, and there were not a million civilians crammed onto Wake Island.
>>58346273Why are burger takes always so delusional? Is it the corn syrup, the fentanyl, or the lack of history?
>>58343662>manual onlyIs it a house rule enforced for all? So no battle plans other than amphib?
>>58343526>entire fucking armyThey were outnumbered in combat troops, under-equipped, and 2/3rds of those "troops" were Indian recruits formed a few months before who hadn't even passed basic training>the biggest fortress in Asia"Fortress" was only the name of a future battle plan, one that never got implemented. Fucking Nanking and Shanghai had better defensive works than any town in Malaya>2 jap divisionsFour, two of them the very best of the IJA.>>58343662>the British government did not provide the necessary reinforcementsTrue>permission to enter neutral Thailandwould have done fuck all!it's like blaming Hitler for not invading Spain in order to defend against D-day!do people actually look at the fucking map before they spout such nonsense?!>having played lots of hearts of ironeven in HOI, if you have an inferior naval fleet the war is basically lostin fact your troops will be deleted more or less instantaneously with no supply and enemy green air
>>58344891Japan suffered extreme military stagnation thanks to their own propaganda and jingoism. They believed themselves superior and not needing to adapt, only to believe in themselves, to achieve victory. Their tactics worked against the Chinese because they had firepower superiority and good training while the Chinese had neither in most cases. As their enemies adapted Japan did not and often could not. Banzai charges only work when you have either total surprise or a massive firepower advantage.
>>58343320The Chinese had been in a civil war since 1911. A big part of Japan's (limited) success in China was the fact that they invaded in the middle of an absolutely massive civil war and that the Communists alternately fought but also tacitly helped the Japs take down the KMT. Chinese continued to fight each other during the war with Japan.Claims that Mao was a fully Japanese ally are overblown. The Communists fought some huge actions against Japan, with both sides losing hundreds of thousands of men across all of them, but in the scale of a war more costly than the Eastern Front (if one counts the entire Chinese Civil War) it was a less than full commitment.The British troops out East were mostly fresh and unprepared. The Chinese were hardened veterans used to dealing with Japanese armor, air, and sea superiority. It is completely unsurprising that the KMT or Mao could succeed where the fresh and under supplied Brits failed. China was definitely on the losing end of their war with Japan but they did inflict atrocious losses on the invaders over time through sheer weight of numbers and tenacity.China would go on to keep fighting after WWII ended for everyone else for 5 more years at the cost of 5-6 million more lives.Why people underestimated them in Korea is totally beyond me. The Chinese also routed the US led UN force in Korea worse than the Japs or Germans ever managed, although the scale of the rout was mostly due to MacArthur being a terrible commander.This isn't embarrassing, but just what you'd expect, green forces doing worse than highly veteran ones.
>>58350693>Japan suffered extreme military stagnation thanks to their own propaganda and jingoism. They believed themselves superior and not needing to adapt, only to believe in themselves, to achieve victoryYup>As their enemies adapted Japan did not and often could not. Banzai charges only work when you have either total surprise or a massive firepower advantageOr a massive numerical advantage.For example, during the Burma campaign - I think battle of the Admin Box - a British platoon was overrun by a Japanese attack, simply because they charged into the teeth of the British guns until the British literally ran out of ammo. In typical British fashion, their accounts of course focus on their own casualties, the terrible hand to hand combat that followed, the loss of the position. But looking past that, isn't it really a failure on the part of the IJA? The losses can't possibly have justified the gains.
>>58350693They suffered military stagnation because they didn't have the industry to supply every division with trucks, field guns, howitzers, or even decent telephone sets. If they could, they would've modernized. It was not an option for them.
>>58350846Maybe in that one instance, but the overall campaigns early after Pearl Harbor had losses that heavily favored the Japanese. Their bigger problem was:>Not pushing their advantage at the Coral Sea, which could have given them a huge strategic victory that would dramatically change the shape of the war, and>Having their codes broken so that the Americans could pick a battle at a place and time of their choosing with the advantage of surprise.By all accounts, the Japanese had significantly better pilots and ship crews at the very outset of the war. US torpedo runs often ended with most of the bombers shot down and no hits, while the Japs had an awesome hit rate, one that would never be matched again during the war. The Zero, which eventually would be massively outclassed, was then the best fighter in theater with the best pilots flying them. US victory at Midway was contingent on an intelligence fuck up and Japanese hubris, which led to them not sending up enough recon planes or planning enough for a trap.It wasn't until Midway that the Japs began facing real strategically meaningful losses, and they initially fought quite well on land, largely owing to naval and air support that was slowly withered away by attrition. Guadalcanal was an absolute slog for the US in comparison to later battles where they had air and naval superiority instead of being on the receiving end of such attacks.The British loss in Burma and the Malay is only embarrassing because of the manner in which it occured, not because it occured, and the massive atrocities against civilians who weren't given any cover to flee because of the collapse. No one expected them to win, but a fighting retreat in good order could have saved a lot more soldiers and civilians.That when the Brits took hard stands it forced the Japs into costly frontal charges just goes to show what a better defense could have done. Escape to China in good order was always an option, unlike the islands
>>58350945>If they could, they would'veindeed; if I could, I'd deep dick Anya Taylor Joy morning noon and night.once again, the story of Japan in WW2 is one of strategic overreach all around. they bit off far far more than they could chew.
>>58350391>permission to enter neutral ThailandHistorigraph did a good video of this. Initial British command uncertainty basically fucked them from the start.If they were allowed to enter Thailand, they could have concentrated their force and prevented Japan from organising during or shortly after they offloaded from their transports in Thailand. As it was, they dallied at the border and were essentially defeated in detail with the troops instead having to perform a fighting retreat over hundreds of km and losing a lot of their heavier weaponry. Japanese aggression really did carry the day in a big way in this instance. It's a good example of political indicesion leading to a heavy defeat due to poor leadershiphttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtDTVB3_gfo
>>58351072>The Zero, which eventually would be massively outclassed, was then the best fighter in theater with the best pilots flying them. US victory at Midway was contingent on an intelligence fuck up and Japanese hubris, which led to them not sending up enough recon planes or planning enough for a trap.Except US also fared better in aircraft/pilot losses at Coral Sea, even accounting for aircraft lost due to losing Ryujo. The only time Japanese pilots in A6M Zeros had the upperhand were against untrained Marine corps fighters or against equally untrained British/Aussie garrison flying Buffalos or worse.
>>58351130Losing more aircraft is acceptable when your pilots actually fly close enough to have their torpedos hit instead of dropping them way out of effective range in a panic.The early hours of Midway looked like a disaster despite the total surprise achieved because waves of Devastators were being almost completely shot down without scoring any hits. The tide only turned because hits were eventually scored.Not to mention the Japanese advantage in night fighting early in the war.
>>58351130Bagging a fleet carrier and almost bagging another (which should have been chased down since it was easily doable at that point) is more important than losing an extra 20 planes.If you lose planes sinking a fleet carrier, that isn't a disadvantage.You lose less aircraft if you dump your torpedos way out and your fighters stay at altitude instead of covering, a common US problem early in the war, but it doesn't mean you're better off.
>>58350945>and could not
>>58351129The Thais had border troops ready to defend against an incursion so there is doubt the British forces would even have got through to the beaches, and if the Japanese landing in Malaya further down the coast succeeded despite prepared British defences on own ground, why should it be any different for British forces in Thailand - in fact it would be much worse, as the British forces would have just finished fighting through the Thai border troops and arrived at the beach!Think about it - you want British troops to fight through the Thais in order to attack Japs whom you expect to land on Thai beaches within the next two days. Lmaowut? That is even more ridiculous than Market-Garden. It's like expecting German troops to completely wipe out the Airborne troops in Normandy and defeat the invasion by 9 June 1944.The "poor leadership" is expecting Krohcol to have made any sense at all in the first place.>and losing a lot of their heavier weaponryThose British troops didn't have much in the first place. They were severely under-equipped compared to the nominal authorised TOE.
>>58351072>a fighting retreat in good order could have saved a lot moreIt's hard to imagine the British doing more. They did all that they could, as isolated infantry battalions. It is the colonial support system which broke down, not the Army. When the Burmese natives gave up and disintegrated, the British formations lost their rear-area support and essentially became islands in a sea of at best neutral, at worst hostile natives.>when the Brits took hard stands it forced the Japs into costly frontal charges just goes to show what a better defense could have doneIt goes to show what having proper equipment, proper training, and proper sustainment can do.
>>58343273No tanks, third rate garrison troops, gigantic underestimation of the competence of the enemy. The US had same general problems to a lesser degree in the phillipines with basically the same result
>>58352360Look at the map, the Thais would have got fucked and the British would have been able to consolidate on the ports, if allowed.The fact that they weren't given the go signal, but equally not given the no-go signal far enough in advance that they could have withdrawn to more favourable terrain for defence is what fucked them.They were left isolated in poorly defensible positions a long distance from their supply hubs with poor support is what ultimately fucked them. The whole campaign was a massive own goal caused by being put far down the priority list by the politicians back home.
>>58350226This was a group of experienced players, AI had no chance
>>58353287>the Thais would have got fuckedNot an assumption I'm willing to back.>if allowedConsider the Jap invasion timetable and tell me if they would have been.Also, don't forget the two more Jap divisions marching into Thailand from the North.
