Why don't Americans allow EU countries to give these to Ukraine?
>>56162530Yeah that's weird. Nasams is okay, so is IRIS-T SLM, but patriot is somehow out of the question.
>>56162530Too afraid it turns out to be mediocre and PAC3 to be overpriced as frequently rumored.
>>56162530Did someone offer them?
>>56162530Fears that Russia will scream “escalation” and do something stupid, unironically. >>56162597Retard. Patriot AA is one of the most effective and proven systems out there. Russia was throwing a bitch fit when US deployed Patriots in the East.
>>56162669>Fears that Russia will scream “escalation” and do something stupid, unironically.There's no real difference between patriot, NASAMS and IRIS-T SLM. So that can't be it.
>why doesnt the US give XYZ to Ukrainebecause when it fails or is destroyed you cant paint a Z on it and pretend it was russian
>>56162666noGermany and Netherlands have Patriot units stationed in Slovakia since shortly after the invasion in Februarythe US has some stationed in Poland too to guard logistical airfields, I thinkafter the recent incident in Poland that killed 2 people, Germany offered to deploy a Patriot unit to Polandthe Polish government then told Germany to give the system to Ukraine in another attempt to make Germany look bad again(this wasn't even up for debate, it's a German army unit we're talking about, not a system to be given away)https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-asks-germany-send-patriot-missile-launchers-ukraine-2022-11-23/
>>56162708Then you look at the map...
>>56162530No one wants to erode their missile defense posture when the world is looking unstable again.
>>56162669Patriot proved itself to be trash against Saddam's Scuds, which were soviet missiles 2 generations behind Iskander and 3 generations behind Kalibr.Every system the US isn't sending is either they know it won't do shit (like F-16) or they have literally no inventory (ATACMS).
>>56162712>the Polish government then told Germany to give the system to Ukraine in another attempt to make Germany look bad againIt's even more funny: officially, the polish government bad accepted tbe proposal and Germany will send a battery over (along with soldiers to man it).But on Twitter, their defense minister has a big mouth and says "wHy DoN't YoU sEnD iT tO uKrAiNe iNsTeAd?"
>>56162849That was 30 years ago you fucking moron. Modern Patriot has nothing to do with those systems.
>>56162530Other than Poland who else has modern Patriots in Europe? And Poland sure as fuck won't give them brand new PAC-3MSE they just bought.
>>56162907Germany has 12 batteries apparently, though I have no idea if they're modernized or not
>>56162666Germany giving some to PolandPoland instantly backstabbing Germany by asking them to send to Ukraine instead (why not send themselves after receiving them)Germany MoD saying that we must 'consult' with other NATO partners, in other words Americans
>>56162530uuuuuuuuuuuuh if it gets in russian's hands the patriot system is fuckedyou can fuck off with your retarded nafo memes too
>>56163538They are not. They got some PAC-3MSE but they are not in service yet.
they need a compatible radar system though
>>56162907did the polish even get their order yet?I know they ordered them and they were supposed to arrive this yearish
>>56164167>if it gets in russian's handsYou're mistaking it with chechen cock
>>56162699Nigger, what? PAC 2, PAC 2 GEM, PAC 3, and PAC 3 MSE are nowhere near the same as a GL AIM-120C7.
Patriot batteries cost something like 1 billion dollars, and ukies already have S-300s for theater/long-range air defence. NASAMS and IRIS T are short - medium range weapons which fill up the gaps by shooting low flying missiles.
>>56162699Patriot batteries are one of the most effective anti-ballistic missile systems out there. Russia had a huge problem with the US deploying Patriots in Poland as it would pose a significant impediment to Russian nuclear ICBMs to strike or retaliate. Similarly, Russia would have a huge issue with Patriots being given to Ukraine as it would mean the same thing as them being in Poland, basically a huge potential reduction in Russia’s nuclear strike capability. Russia would view the deployment of such a tried and true cornerstone of the NATO anti-BM force as a direct threat against its nuclear capability.
>>56162849That was the early 90s, using PAC 2, and early PAC 3 and old radar units. Even then, Patriot did well against scuds. The Israelis kept their Patriot's in manual mode, which deceased intercept times, even after the US trainers told them daily to keep it in auto mode. Even when the US trainers would switch them to auto, by the next morning the kikes switched them to manual. Israel was wanting their own domestic SAM, and fucked the Patriot to try and get it. On phone, or would link the reports. All you need to do is search, though.
>>56162849The size of the "scuds" and the final tumbling and autofragmentation made them almost impossible of completely destroy, specially the warhead. Even with current tech would be difficult.
>>56164489This. Most scuds were intercepted and knocked off course but the debris would still cause a lot of damage.
>>56164340ukies will eventually run out of s300/buk missiles. And they'd better have a replacement (with trained personnel) by that time. Supplying patriots/f16s earlier rather than later will let em to start accumulating the necessary expertise before it is too late.
>>56162530They don't actually work, and we don't anyone to find out.
>>56164489No, the fuse delay was wrong, causing the fragmenting warhead to explode aft of the warhead. This would sometimes leave the warhead untouched. The fuse was fixed with PAC 2 GEM+, and hit-to-kill PAC 3. The PAC 3 is able to hit maneuvering warheads found on Pershing II's. It has no trouble taking out a shitty Scud.
>>56164167I don't think Russians are capable of reverse engineering them at this point
Maintenance and training.
>>56164732>They don't actually work, and we don't anyone to find out.ITS THIS, you cant $cam anyone into buying some worthless piece of shit when it gets exposed by RussiaSAME REASON ISRAEL cannot and will not send any of its equipment.>it will get exposed by Russia, and it will created 'domestic loss of confidence' that westoid governments fear utterly
>>56162530>Germany gives patriots to poland.>poland says give it to Ukraine.>Germany NOOO YOU CANT DO THAT.thats what literally happened today. I am happy this board is not retarded enough to believe that Ukraine will get F-35s next.
>>56168696vatniks always project
https://twitter.com/SpriterMonitor1/status/1595909592206172165>poland already has patriots next to Ukraine.>Germany offers another patriots to poland but refusal for ukraine to receive it from polandI dont know what mental gymnastics is going on to describe this mental retardation.
>>56164140I'm sure this is a true story.
>>56162569Because in theory Patriots can shoot down NOOKs and the rest of the EU wants to keep them ready for the Russian NOOKS
>>56162849The Patriot missile had a memory leak back then that was only fixed by rebooting itPatriots that were regularly rebooted hit missile fine, ones that didn't, lagged
>>56168837I think everyone just gave up on ukraine, even the next package deal from the U.S. is described as being not enough according to the last package deals ukraine has received. Than on January we whill have new congress members which will majorly republican which we have yet to see if they will approve of spending to ukraine.
>>56168909this shit again? You're still trying this tired bullshit?
>>56162530As well as what everyone else said, it's just plain overkill. NASAMS is way better, because the ammo is essentially infinite (we've made somewhere over 100000 AIM-9s for example and have plenty of capacity to churn AA missiles out since America is built around air power doctrine) and is completely fine for what Ukraine needs. Hell if anything Ukraine needs more on the other side of the spectrum, CIWS and aa guns for cost effective volume tertiary defense against cheap drones and low grade cruise missiles and shit, not fancy stuff.
>>56168995>CIWSthe fool always looks to the past.
>>56168875Not a memory leak, but a floating point precision issue as 24bit floating point isn't precise enough to represent a centisecond.
>>56168995>Ukraine has received NASAMS capable of firing AIM-9Source? I'd be very surprised. Most NASAMS can only fire AMRAAM.
>>56169017>first prototypes soonAnon Ukraine needs stuff NOW, not next year. So yeah like I said relatively simple basic stuff is good enough. I have no doubt this war will be a big accelerator in anti-drone technology development, and after Ukraine wins and is starting to get built up I'm sure they will be keeping a high priority close eye on these sorts of systems (as will everyone else on Europes "frontier" vs Russia and others). Maybe in 2025 or 2026 or whatever we really will see lots of lasers start to get deployed across Eastern Europe, though US will want them on ships and so on as well and I have no idea how fast they'll be able to get pumped out once they enter mass production.In the mean time though guns and repurposing air to air missiles for ground use are good strats. And either way Patriot is still not a good fit.
>>56169041>Source? I'd be very surprised. Most NASAMS can only fire AMRAAM.NASAMS 3 added the AIM-9 and IRIS back in 2019 IIRC. Given we're only trickling handfuls of units I'd be very surprised if they weren't sending those precisely because it'd let NATO lean on massively higher stock cheaper less effective missiles for the bulk of supply. I'll see if I can find a source but I know I read about aim-9s for use there which necessarily meant NASAMS 3 even if the journalist didn't understand the different generations.
>>56169041>>56169092Found it (or one anyway):>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/08/us/politics/russia-ukraine-missiles-nasams.html>The launcher is capable of firing four different American-made missiles, Mr. Williams said, including the heat-seeking AIM-9X Sidewinder and the AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile, which has a radar that can home in on airborne threats about 30 miles away. Additionally, it can identify targets approaching from any direction, Mr. Williams said.So definitely NASAMS 3.
>>56169060>prototypesthey've already had units at the platoon level for some time now. We're late into Q4 2022.
>>56169122Just going by what the picture said, and even that first one says "will deliver the first prototypes at the platoon level in 4QFY22.">they've already had units at the platoon level for some time now. We're late into Q4 2022.Sure, that's on schedule for the initial one, but still sounds like it's well off mass production and general distribution. And if they can't produce enough and consider them disposable enough to send extras to Ukraine then it's not really relevant to Ukraine right now is it? It certainly might be next summer even, let alone in a few years.
>>56162530Because they don't work very well and if that got out they couldn't sell more.
>>56172535always projection with the pidorashkas, hmm?
>>56164140>>56168841it is true.Germany offered to deploy a Patriot unit of the Bundeswehr to Poland and to use German Eurofighters to help with air policing over Poland after the missile strike that killed 2 Polish civilians recently. Poland initially accepted the offer regarding the Patriot missiles (not sure about the Eurofighters):https://apnews.com/article/nato-technology-germany-slovakia-mariusz-blaszczak-d356f522df81933f04287f21b3045512The Polish PiS government, being the anti-German backstabbing faggots that they are, then went on to ask Germany to deploy the unit to Ukraine instead, which would turn Germany into a participant in the war, and is obviously a completely retarded suggestion, only intended to make Germany look bad after the inevitable refusal:https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-asks-germany-send-patriot-missile-launchers-ukraine-2022-11-23/There was never talk about Patriot systems being given to Ukraine. It was always a German military unit operating Patriots.
>>56162530>Russian SEAD munitions have hardware that are designed to only see NATO radar sets>Literally designed to not be able to see Soviet/Russian made radar sets>because of this it's more effective to just give Ukraine old Soviet equipmentThis is before we even go into logistics, experience and training
>>56164455Only PAC-2s were used in the Gulf War