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Wild drunken hypothetical here, theres a big fuss over what can go through plates. But what about around plates? Seems like distance is the only limiting factor here but #4 buckshot seems like an extremely accessible albeit niche way to shoo off an armored assailant. If my face and neck or worse cock'n'balls were shredded i think i would have a hard time continuing aggression. Thoughts? Yeahs?
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You're going to have a very limited engagement window where you get the right amount of spread.

Room to room? Might as well be a single projectile.
50 yards and out, you're going to get over-matched.

I think smarter money would be a deep capacity semi-auto, most of their area isn't rifle plate, so just shoot at them.
However, if you have an under barrel 12 gauge accessory, you could fire your #4 buck if you find yourself at optimal shotgun range.
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>>50822098
>Under barrel 12 gauge

This ain't call of duty you noguns faggot
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>>50822098
>under barrel 12 gauge
Just out of curiosity, how many people do you think actually own these, or something similar? They’re prohibitively expensive for what they are, have incredibly limited range and capacity (mad short barrels), and not only do companies like KAC not offer them to civilians, you can’t just slap them onto any barrel and they’re nfa items. I thought they were cool when I was a kid, but they’re only useful or breaching.
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>>50822151
Is this it? Have we finally circled the square?
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>>50822098
>might as well be a single projectile
Not if you use the right barrel for the job.
https://youtu.be/CT4k5pZjDhE
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>>50822203
Why do more people not used rifled barrels for home defense? Makes a lot of sense. Otherwise you’ll get almost no spread in home defense ranges and might as well just use an ar.
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>>50822218
because if someone is firearms-literate enough to know that a rifled bbl is better for HD distances, they either have a rifled bbl on their HD shotgun already or they DO just use an AR.
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>>50822218
99% of gun owners hear "rifled barrel" and are convinced you can only use it for slugs without knowing why.
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>>50822167
Yes they exist, but they are literally just breaching tools. They aren't any good for much else, hell they aren't even as good as a stand-alone shotgun for breaching because after you breech, you got a heavy ass shotgun hanging off your rifle slowing it the hell down. How the fuck are you even gonna aim that thing anyway?
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>>50822218
I have a rifled barrel for large game. Is it really better for HD?
>>50822259
This actually is my exact thought, that it is only meant for sabot slugs. Could you please elaborate?
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>>50822356
Don't use a rifled barrel for shot that's just dumb. It'll tear up the wad and your pattern will be extremely random. You want a consistent pattern in a HD shotgun.
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>>50822356
Centrifugal force causes the shot to be pushed away from the center of rotation, making the shot spread significantly faster. See the vid on this post >>50822203
>>50822376
Looked pretty consistent on my source. Also, I don't see a point in having consistent patterns in HD if the pattern is going to be 6" at its widest in the longest possible HD ranges. You could argue risk of collateral damage, but the great majority of people use 00 buck which would probably get overpenetration even if you hit 2 guys lined up behind each other.
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>>50822356
>This actually is my exact thought, that it is only meant for sabot slugs. Could you please elaborate?
They *are* meant for sabot slugs. That is their purpose. Let's back up a bit.

A shotgun is a specialist tool for point shooting (as opposed to aiming with sights) at small fast-moving game, like flying birds or a running rabbit, and by extension the modern sports of Skeet, Trap, Sporting Clays, and so on. That is the purpose of a shotgun in general. It's not meant for shooting people or large game, that's what a rifle is for, and is much better at. Slugs and slug barrels exist as a compromise for people who can't afford a rifle, can't have or use a rifle for legal reasons like bans or rifles or shotgun-only hunting seasons, but need to take large game.

Can you shot shot out of a rifled barrel? Sure, it won't harm the barrel. But you probably wouldn't want to. At the distances shotguns are typically used for their intended purpose--hunting or shooting clays--the pattern is going to be miserable and you're not going to hit a damn thing. At home defense distances it doesn't really matter, there won't be time for enough spread anyway. Now there's probably some magic distance at which a rifled barrel will increase hit proability without leaving the pattern too thin, but what's the point of cucking your performance at most ranges only to have a slight hit probability advantage at one particular range? It seems like a silly trade-off to make.
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>>50822166
KAC doesn't offer them to civvies directly but they're easily found if you want one. All the big NFA dealers have them. And C-More sells the M26 straight to civvies. I don't have an under-barrel version but I do have C-More's M26 PDW, the standalone pistol configuration.
They are totally impractical unless you're a literal door kicker, I can't think of any practical role, mine is just a fun range blaster.
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>>50821495
#1 is best. Much better penetration than #4, especially at 50 yards, and especially through cover, and still a good shot count.
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>>50821495
Always aim for the groin.
I use #00 Buck, and consider pic related to rank very highly in my little armory.
The shotgun is an underrated weapon that ought to be considered more closely.
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>>50822910
Nobody underrates shotguns. It's the first thing people suggest when some poorfag asks what he can get for $300 or when someone asks for a good choice for a practical first gun. Shotguns are awesome, everyone gets this.
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>>50822223
>watch demolition ranch youtube video
>It SpReAdS!!!
>best for home defense, totally firearms literate here guys
>>50822463
Spread isn’t a good thing for home defense, that’s what you don’t understand.
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>>50823013
I would like to hear the reasoning behind this. Every single defensive firearm has been going for more and more capacity because it is assumed that you will miss. By increasing the spread of a shotgun, you are greatly increasing your hit probability without the possibility of harming it due to the specific ranges that are common in the home.
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>>50823013
Spreading is for legs and jam
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>>50823041
Spread greatly limits your range.
Spread increases your chance of hitting something you don't want to hit.
Spread is also a problem if there are holes in your pattern. It doesn't do you any good if the pattern is centered on the bad guy but no pellets actually manage to hit him in a vital spot.

Most of the time people want to minimize spread with shotguns compared to a cylinder bore, this is why the invention of the choke was such a huge deal back in the 19th century, and why things like Federal Flight Control buckshot are a thing today.
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>>50822928
I'm looking for a double barrel side by side and can't seem to find one the easy route. mind telling me how troublesome it is to deal with your local fun store for a gunbroker FFL bid and sale? there's been a few going for a fair amount lately.
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>>50823041
>Every single defensive firearm has been going for more and more capacity because it is assumed that you will miss.
Not really the reason, you have a responsibility not to miss. Increased capacity gives you more ammunition to incapacitate multiple assailants, not license to spray. “Every round sent down range has a lawyer attached to it.” You are accountable for every pellet, and if you’re intentionally spiraling out your pattern, you are setting a condition where you are turning pellets that would have been on target into fliers that are now headed for your neighbor’s bedroom. Shotgun spread is great for clays and birds, but raw killing power is the focus as a defensive gun.
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>>50823081
I've bought many guns off of gunbroker, it's pretty damn easy.
Call or Email your FFL and have them send a copy of their license to the seller. Pay the seller. The seller sends the gun to your FFL, you go there and pick it up. I've never been charged more than $25 for this. Pretty simple.
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>>50823081
Really easy actually. Just let them know in advance.
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>>50822098
>deep capacity semi auto
just make it full auto if this is your goal
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>>50823062
>Spread greatly limits your range.
That's fine because the longest range you will typically find in a house is 10 yards.
>Spread increases your chance of hitting something you don't want to hit.
So does firing any bullet capable of killing. Overpenetration is possible with all but the most anemic handgun rounds and the risk is widely considered to be negligible, especially when the shot has to exit a building, enter another building, and hit something that it would otherwise miss with a 0.1 degree change in trajectory.
>Spread is also a problem if there are holes in your pattern.
That's way you don't use low pellet count crap like 00 buck. It penetrates twice as much as it needs to and greatly reduces pellet count. Holes in the pattern are a moot point within reason because there is no guarantee that your aim is centered on something vital in the first place. That's the point of increasing hit probability.
>people want to minimize spread with shotguns
For general use, yes. I am talking about using it solely for ranges within 10 yards.
>>50823084
>raw killing power is the focus as a defensive gun
I agree, which is why I advocate for increased spread. A 2" hole center mass is not a guaranteed incapacitation. 20 .25" holes in the entire torso, plus 5 in both arms is also not guaranteed to immediately incapacitate, but massively increases the chance you hit something immediately important to life function.
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>>50823240
You asked a generic question about spread and you got your generic answer.

Now, if you're talking strictly within under 10 yards? Sure, spread makes sense there. Get what you can. Alas, the spreader inserts that work awesome with short-range skeet loads take up too much room to be used with buckshot. So long as you're sure that the rifling isn't leaving you with a donut pattern (easily verified by shooting paper) it should be fine within 10 yards.
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>>50823240
>20 gauge
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>>50823240
>A 2" hole center mass is not a guaranteed incapacitation
You can do all the mental gymnastics you want but the data is clear. Rifles outperform shotguns in real world shootings.
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>>50822218
What makes a rifled barrel better than rifled slugs?
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>>50824094
>>A 2" hole center mass is not a guaranteed incapacitation
it's not. the only guaranteed instant stoppage is between the eyes/nose
>>50824094
>the data is clear. Rifles outperform shotguns in real world shootings.
what data?
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>>50823240
It won’t be a predictable spread set up like that. You won’t get to choose where the holes in your pattern are, so you very well could be decreasing the amount of pellets on target on a well-aimed shot. With more pellets, and especially with more pattern interference (which is what rifling does to shot), you are denting and degrading the pellets, they are bouncing around off of the rifling and each other, losing velocity, and going off on wild trajectories. No serious person, agency, or military does this shit. It is YouTube clickbait and you should stop taking advice from people like this. It is irresponsible.
>>50824094
>Rifles outperform shotguns in real world shootings.
With an asterisk they do. Lots and lots of people are retarded and load high brass birdshot and even target loads intentionally or unintentionally. I know one person who kept loaded a bean bag, a bird shot, and then a buckshot in the tube. The variation in power within the 12 gauge chambering between loads is massive compared to a rifle.
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>>50824172
A rifled barrel spins the slug. The term "rifled slug" is a bit of marketing bullshit. Those angled fins or whatever you want to call them on a "rifled slug" have nothing to do with spin. Instead, they are there to allow the slug to deform so they can be safely fired through a choke. Check out the slow-mo videos Taufledermaus has on Youtube, normal "rifled slugs" like Fosters don't spin.

>>50824426
>it's not. the only guaranteed instant stoppage is between the eyes/nose
Agreed. It was the rest of the sentence that was silly, I just didn't bother to greentext the whole thing to save space.

>what data?
I just posted it.

>>50824512
The pattern may or may not be predictable, anon can determine that by checking the pattern on paper. All the rest of the stuff you said is absolutely true, but really doesn't matter at anon's 10 yard limit.

As for the "asterisk", the "rifle" data is also tainted with 22's, varmint loads, you name it. But it's the best data we have, and it beats armchair discussions and fuddlore.
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>>50824701
a book called "street stoppers"?
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>>50824701
>As for the "asterisk", the "rifle" data is also tainted with 22's, varmint loads, you name it. But it's the best data we have, and it beats armchair discussions and fuddlore.
That’s true but most rifles above .22 are a lot more potent than target loads. A .22 lead nose will penetrate a lot better than a target load pellet. A .223 varmint load is a killer. It’s not really fudd lore to make the comparison, it’s just mass and speed.
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>>50824701
>As for the "asterisk", the "rifle" data is also tainted with 22's, varmint loads, you name it.

You do know that the reverse also applies. There may be 22s in the data, but there is also pop pop's 30-06 and 30-30. For every 22 there is probably a duur rifle in there too. Shotgun effectiveness can only go down since it pretty much peaks at 12 gauge buck for anti-personel use.
There are way too many idiots that just grab the cheapest shit they can find to use for their HD gun or are gullible enough to believe that blowing up a can of beans with birdshot makes it good enough for defensive use. Just look at the comment section on any birdshot vs buckshot for home defense videos o. Youlube.
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>>50824701
I just looked up exactly what you said on YouTube and the consensus was they do indeed spin, just a little slow.
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>>50826365
But anon, would YOU like to be shot with .410 birdshot?
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>>50826365
If you believe a load of birdshot from across your bedroom is going to do anything but put a big-ass hole in your chest you need to put the AR down for a minute and get some more shotgun experience.
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>>50826365
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlHsVQDbyx4
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>>50827856
>>50827375
>>50827693

Blowing up a plastic skull covered in jello ain't realistic. I didn't say that birdshot wouldn't kill, but that it isn't as effective as buck. Like a 22lr is to a 5.56 is cheap birdshot to buckshot. Hell, lead BB or larger is great and is totally adequate, but that's not what people are referring to when they say birdshot is inferior to buck. They are talking about the people that buy a box of low power 7.5 shot dove loads for their home defense shotgun. I would feel fully confident using BB sized birdshot for defense I side the home, but #4 is better and more consistent, #1 buck is even more so. I also don't live in an apartment and humans aren't the only thing I may need to shoot so I use buck because it suits my particular set of needs.

Shotguns require knowledge or research to know what you need to use and the average person with a shotgun will just put anything that says 12 gauge into their gun and call it a day.
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>>50830276
>Like a 22lr is to a 5.56 is cheap birdshot to buckshot
Eh, not quite. It's still an ounce of lead doing a respectable speed and at super short range it's still in the fucking shot cup. Within room distances it's more like .380 vs 9mm unless you've gone out of your way to buy dust loads.
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>>50827693
Here, watch a video of a woman taking a load of birdshot to the chest and walking it off.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kc9ZeHIGphk
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>>50830276
>I would feel fully confident using BB sized birdshot for defense I side the home
You shouldn't.
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>>50830313
That guy had dodgy ammo, he also had 2 duds in that shooting. You can walk off .50 BMG if it's a dud.
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>>50822151
Sir, you needlessly impugn the honor of my firearm collection. A brief search will reveal multiple makes of underbarrel shotgun available for purchase 'IRL'.

>>50822166
>how many people do you think actually own these
Almost nobody, but if you're like OP and you want to shoot a cloud of shot around a rile plate, this may be the most sensible way to get there.
It also allows for:
Door breaching loads
Shooting small drones with birdshot
Shooting security cameras with birdshot
Maybe, just maybe, skeet shooting a thrown grenade.
Dragon's breath rounds for signalling or lighting spilled fuel from a distance.
The US military has shape charge 12 gauge rounds (somewhere), super unlikely, but there's your rifle-plate solution if you somehow got some.

>>50822203
Then you get room to room, but your buck's all in a hoop, and the hoop is bigger than a man at 20 yards.

>>50823094
>just do full auto
Civilians probably have to worry about ammo consumption more, and I've heard the maximum useful range for full auto AR15 on a point target is about 50 yards if you're particularly skilled.
Probably better to have a slower rate of aimed fire, than a very high rate that's just for covering fire beyond modest distances.
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>>50827693
>If you believe a load of birdshot from across your bedroom is going to do anything but put a big-ass hole in your chest
Will it pulverize ribs? Yes.
Will it destroy the heart/lung? Maybe
Will it punch through the other side? Probably not.
You can kill a man with a blank if you are close enough. Birdshot is only optimal if you live in an apartment, just to mitigate over penetration. Anything birdshot can do buckshot can do better, except kill birds.

Is an AR the best home defenceman weapon? No.
Is it better than fucking birdshot? Yes.
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>>50830433
>room to room
>20 yards
Bro, how big is your house?
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>>50822218
>>50822223
The point of a shotgun for HD isn't the spread to improve hit probability, it's to blow a softball sized hole where you hit them.
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>>50822151
>he doesnt oper9 with a master key on his assault rifle 15
ngmi
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>>50830814
>Birdshot is only optimal
In context we're generally talking about "oh shit I only have a box of 7 1/2, is Tyrone going to rape me" situations, in which case Tyrone is definitely going to have a bad day.
I don't think it's ever optimal, even at room ranges, unless you're getting up into ~5mm birdshot that could equally be described as light buckshot, and that's not the sort of thing you just have lying around.
However ARs in a populated apartment building are fucking retarded, especially if they're short barrel and toted by the kind of zoomer who thinks ARs are appropriate in that situation.
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>>50830320
Lead BB penetrates 12 inches in gel testing. Only a little bit less penetration than #4 buck.
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>>50831505
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/shotgun-penetration-with-various-rounds/

BB is more like 10 to 11 inches with some going 12 plus.
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>>50823081
dixiegunworks has pedersoli double barrel percussion muzzleloading shotguns
they arent fast to reload but with .69 cal paper cartridges in a 12 gauge model you'll keep up a steady reload rate
they are very pretty shotguns but you're looking $1k minimum brand new
also have shipped straight to your door
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>>50822910
please do not aim there have SOME MERCY
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>>50821495
for fast spread i recommend hammering all your #4 buckshot into cubes and use with a rifled barrel to maximize spread
aim center mass and hit everything but the plate at the right distance
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>>50831548
If Tyrone busts down my door, he is losing his nuts. I shall feed them to the squirrels.
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>>50827693
>>50827856
Why don’t you ask Dick Cheney’s buddy about it?
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At what range does the weight difference between lead shot and steel shot start to matter?
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>>50821495
>shotgun
>turkey hunt
Think about it.
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>>50832786
Even Cheney isn't enough of a cunt to go quail shooting with a 12ga. That was a 28 and the guy he shot was 30-40 yards away.
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>>50834275
the only thing cheney was hunting that day was long pig
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>>50821495
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipc1llezmoM
same as you cast for your 1951 in 36 (.380/.375)
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>>50822166
>Expensive
For rubber eaters, maybe.



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