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https://sofrep.com/news/general-dynamics-says-the-armys-next-rifle-should-be-their-bullpup-style-rm277/
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>>47967237
Then it's settled!
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>>47967237
Not beltfed to take full advantage of weight savings of carrying 500+rounds is a waste of tax payers dollars and evident of a corrupt system pandering to corporations like GD and Haliburton. I cannot wait for this coubtry to implode.
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>>47967284
General Dynamics makes a pretty slick .338 MMG
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>>47967237
Well of course they say that.
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Damn, General Dynamics has spoken. Cancel the trials and fire up the machines fellas. We're taking the bullpup abomination with a buttplug on the end to war with China.
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>>47967298
.338 mmq, cute waste of time.
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>>47967237
>Company says customers should buy their product
You don't say
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>>47967237
You're retarded, this article is from October 2019, and is just GD revealing their NGSW entry (which everyone already knows about)

>>47967313
Delta-P's suppressors are top of the line, I dunno why people think of sex toys when they see it.
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>>47967315
It's 3lb lighter than an M240B and it has the range of a .50 cal
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everyone knows that SIG will win in the end. this is massive cope from GD
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>>47967344
They're way out of their league up against GD and Textron and their ammo will not be able to hit the requirements for weight, not to mention the cost of ammo production versus the injection molded plastic of TV and Textron meaning they can't underbid like how they won the M17 contract.
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Bullpups are fucking retarded unless they are pic related
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>>47967333
>a fucking A2 grip
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>>47967439
Based and doing your part.
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>>47967442
All of the NGSW entries take any AR grip.
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>>47967442
A2 grip did nothing wrong
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If GD wins the bullpupists seething will be hilarious

Inb4 we lose all wars because awkward mag changes.
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>>47967483
It has that stupid finger nub that doesn't do anything other than make the grip a bit less comfortable.
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>>47967512
That finger nub gives you superior weapon retention in all environments.
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>>47967539
I have never, nor have I ever heard of anyone else almost losing their rifle only for it to be saved by that faggy little nub on their A2 grip.
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>>47967576
It makes a huge difference whether you realize it or not. Imagine having someone try to rip the rifle out your hands, that nub could save your life.
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>>47967298
socom picked sig's 338 mmg instead
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>>47967628
But I have a sling that's much better at that job.
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>>47967237
Bullpup haters BTFO
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>>47967237
I hope they adopt this. I want to see the USA adopt a meme bullpup right after europe finally ditched theirs for ar15s
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>>47967333
WTF are those two levers? Are they both safeties?
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>>47968500
The large is the safety and the small is the fire select. What I'm wondering is what's the button in front of the safety lever.
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>>47968520
>The large is the safety and the small is the fire select
That's a stupid way of adding complexity for not gain whatsoever
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>>47968530
It's probably due to the system that switches firing from an closed bolt to an open bolt in full auto, or just being hard to get a three position safety in a bullpup form.. The larger safety is also easier to strike, so I don't get any asspain about it, that's the one that matters anyways.
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>>47968562
>open bolt machine guns
>after the fucking 1950's

Jesus Christ, Boston Dynamics is officially fucking retarded. And if the ordinance department wants an open bolt machine gun they're even more retarded than I thought.
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>>47967237
The US adopting a bullpup battle rifle after most of the NATO powers have finally given up on battle rifles and their bullpups and switched to AR pattern rifles in 5.56 would be pretty stupid and funny, so it's pretty likely, but so is adopting a brick full of machinery that ejects from the grip or a rifle that only offers a marginal improvement over what they already have.
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>>47968562
>It's probably due to the system that switches firing from an closed bolt to an open bolt in full auto, or just being hard to get a three position safety in a bullpup form.. The larger safety is also easier to strike, so I don't get any asspain about it, that's the one that matters anyways.
Didn't the FG42 do this WITHOUT requiring two switches?
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>>47967442
Best grip
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>>47967333
>>47968562
Wait, is the ejection port reversible? I hope they make a 5.56 variant for civilian use if/when they lose the contract. Ignoring any impending gun legislation, of course
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>>47968954
>Wait, is the ejection port reversible? I hope they make a 5.56 variant for civilian use if/when they lose the contract. Ignoring any impending gun legislation, of course
It SHOULD be, but you never know.

That said, I really doubt they'll rework it for regular 5.56. If anything, they'd probably try to sell it with their proprietary round, to make money off both ends.
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>>47968879
Nope, two separate switches.

https://youtu.be/RbxRKXKht3Y?t=493
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>>47968973
Yes, though it stands to see if that has to be done with a special lefty bolt or is a simple swap of which side the ejection port cover is on. Additionally, since the polymer rounds don't carry much heat, it wouldn't be painful getting struck by them (although the steel base would still be very hot)
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>>47967237
no shit? Would a company ever say "Don't buy our product buy our competitors"?
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>>47967651
[citation needed]
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>>47968643
Why? It's perfect for machine guns
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>>47969368
>perfect for machine guns
It's not. It reduces accuracy greatly and changes the fundamental feel of the gun to prevent cookoffs. So you give up the normalized use of a weapon with a semi auto function for the sake of being able to have a slightly higher cyclic rate. And if you're firing so much that you're worried about cookoffs your accuracy is dogshit as the barrel expansion has now thrown off your point of impact anyways, and you still need to swap out barrels to stop that. So it's a feature that potentially let's you get an extra bit ammo through the system before you swap the barrels you were already going to swap anyways at the cost of drastically reduced accuracy.
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>>47969297
https://www.all4shooters.com/en/shooting/pro-zone/sig-sauer-mg-338-norma-magnum-machine-gun-for-united-states-special-operation-command/
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>>47968643
I guess you weren't joking, but both the 249 and 240 are open bolt, as well as the PKM and a large amount of LMGs/MMGs from many different countries.
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>>47969619
You fell for SIG marketing, SOCOM completed an evaluation of the MG338 they did not adopt it.
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>>47970128
Then why hasn't SOCOM purchased any GD LWMMGs?
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>>47969709
RPK has a fixed barrel so it needs as much cooling as possible, the FN Minimi (M249/M240) doesn't have a semi-automatic function, so the gun always feels the same to fire.
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>>47970166
Why haven't they purchased any MG338 beyond what was used to evaluate them? Almost like neither has been adopted...
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>>47967237
It's the best design and ammo so it probably should be.
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You don’t have a single clue about any of this, you have got to have the most massive, cavernous, gaping asshole if you had that much bullshit crammed up there.
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>>47970337
>>47969513
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>>47967237

>Bullpup

But can you hit someone with it when you run out of bullets?
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>>47968774
>Brick full of machinery

Textron-chan went on a diet
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>>47967237
Rifle that will win the competition is the company that manages to bribe the right Generals.
Yes, it's really that simple.
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>>47970385
That ejection port is in an awful spot, I don’t think there’s anything they can do about it at this point either.
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>>47970471
I think you can swap which side it ejects. Just put a vfg in front of the ejection port and have it eject to the opposite side of the shooter’s support hand
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>>47970378
I don't see why the location of the magazine would prevent you from bludgeoning someone with it
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>>47967333
can anyone identify that light?
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>>47968454
> chink pup
sort of want.
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>>47970499
They might be able to mitigate the issue but it won’t go away. I wonder why they decided that was a flaw they could live with?
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>>47970416
Explain the XM8 not being adopted.
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Its gonna be Sig. Too much corruption with Sig involved plus its almost just an upgraded M4 platform.
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>>47967237
>company says you should buy company's product!
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>>47970471
If they give it a ramp they could shield the users hand and send those things out at like a 45 degree angle. You can have this idea for free textron.
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>>47970635
not (you), but the government.
They should just buy more lobby-fags and bribe their way into the contract.
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>>47970607
They simply didn't buy the right general. Generalin charge of procurement eventually ended up at Colt (and later went to SIG).
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Reposting a mil procurement anon’s post:
I haven't seen any test data, but I have a strong background in small arms procurement.

Assuming all of the rifles are similarly reliable, accurate and costly, they're going to pick GD. The GD design has the right mix of innovative and risk reductive features.

The Sig ammo design is a technogical dead end, while their action and layout have basically no advantages over legacy designs - it would have been a great submission for an UOR teb years ago, but it's hard to see how it's an appropriate choice for the current situation. All subsystems of the Textron submission are radically innovative and have huge growth potential, but the amount of technical risk is plain to see - it's a great submission but derisking it looks hard. It might get picked, but if it's picked it may jeopordise the project down the track.

GD has enough innovation in the right areas to have half a century of growth potential in key technology, but it also has a lot of classic design features that are low risk. I think it will be assessed as having the big picture advantages of the Textron bid in terms of forcing the moribund small arms industry state of the art forwards, but the technical and industry risk is tolerably low and is unlikely to shipwreck the whole program in a few years.

Of course, the assumption that they're all similarly performant is bad, and there's probably big differences in the test data on the weapons vs specced parameters.

I'm actually hopeful for this project. I think M4 is really going to be phased out for conventional combatants, while SF and second line staff will keep carbines in stock for a while longer.
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>>47970547
Textron really dropped the ball by not making their rifle a bullpup.
>ejection port is now in approximately the same place as a traditional rifle
>no chance of someone blocking it with their hand
>no issues with offhand shooting
>can either lower the ammo pressure and give a longer barrel so you still get the same velocity but the gun doesn't eat barrels for breakfast, or keep the same barrel length and pressure and now you have a rifle much more compact than their competition, including the other bullpup rifle.
>if they chose the former they can raise the pressure back to normal levels and cut the barrel down when the military inevitably asks for a shorter version.
Prove me wrong in a way that isn't just the standard nonsensical bitching about bullpups, you can't.
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I thought GenDyn made missiles and shit, not small arms. Have they made other guns?
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>>47970719
I have an even stronger background in small arms procurement and they're going to pick SIG.
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>>47970758
GD partnered with Beretta.
Textron is with HK, Winchester and Olin.
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>>47970719
>I think M4 is really going to be phased out for conventional combatants
>army is going to replace a light-recoiling intermediate cartridge with a magnum moose-buster
lol no.
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>>47970719
My hope is that Textron wins and their polymer cased telescoped ammo kick starts a new age of small arms development. GD's ammo is neat, but it's really just an incremental upgrade over brass cases. Sig's ammo is a fuckin' joke that's just brass cased ammo, but more expensive.
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>>47970769
I have the strongest small arms procurement background available with +5 to hit and vorpal. If they pick Sig, the project will get shitcanned and they'll stick with M4 because why even bother.
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If it's not the GM6 Lynx then the army is gay
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>>47970874
nice range toy
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>>47967439
I want a real 28" M14 with a UBGL bros.
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>>47970806
>I think the army is going to keep a calibre in service that can't wound an adversary with a centre mass shot.
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>>47970735
I love bullpups personally, and I think textrons design is wasted on a traditional style rifle.
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>>47970809
While I agree, I’m not so sure the US is interested in being the first one to take the leap. TVs ammo would be the easiest to adopt, a crossed all current weapon systems.
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>>47970769
anons really do not grasp how small SIG is compared to Textron and GD
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>>47971713
all SIG does is small arms though.
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>>47971762
which is why their rifle is just a rehash of an existing product, they have no R&D
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>>47967237
it looks like he is running with scissors. reported
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>>47971762
While Textron and General Dynamics are fucking massive defense industry giants who produce aircraft (Textron Scorpion), missiles, tank armaments, and shitloads of equipment and electronic systems for military aircraft. Sig Sauer USA is shitting out designs left and right and is unable to properly quality control them. If for whatever reason the military picks Sig’s design I guarantee you it’ll be a repeat of the M16s early days.
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>>47971762
That's why GD's contracted Beretta and Textron's contracted HK for design work.
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>>47970973
Yes. Rounds on target matter more even if they don't give optimal wounding every time. Gigantic magnum-powered rounds are not conducive to getting rounds on target in a hurry
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>>47971975
Personal Carbines are all fired in semi auto anyway, I seriously doubt the recoil will matter that much and it will probably matter less if their recoil dampening systems improve from where they are now.
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>>47971991
>Personal Carbines are all fired in semi auto anyway, I seriously doubt the recoil will matter that much
recoil matters in semi
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>>47971996
>look at my split times on this target 300 yards away

Mkay.
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>>47971915
shitting out 50 flavors of the same pistol and piston AR does not take much R&D budget
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>>47967333
I want to see them entries all set up to launch 40mm Pikes, the thought of SACLOS missiles out of an under barrel launcher is amazing to me
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>>47972152
The Army's hinting at wanting a new infantry squad level counter-defilade tool. I wonder what they'll go with.

Also, you could call grenadiers that carry that thing in numbers "pikemen"

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2020/11/06/army-launches-new-effort-to-tackle-no-1-squad-capability-gap/

>The new program will open up the type of munition to meet the counter-defilade problem at the squad level, but Stambersky said the weapon must have variable power magnification in its fire control, a range of at least 1,000 meters and a “family of ammunition.”
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>>47972731
XM25 grenade launcher ended up being shit.
Is there anything that isn’t a grenade launcher even viable for this task?
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>>47972953
XM25 was great by most accounts, killed by some retard that loaded it wrong
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>>47967487
Arguments on /k/
>military rifle or caliber changes are irrelevant because arty and air support does all the killing
also
>we can’t pick a bull pup despite its advantages because mag changes are awkward
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>>47971975
Ineffective rounds on target do not matter. 5.56 isn't marginally effective against Chinese and Russian infantry, it's ineffective. EPR does not fix this. Riflemen are entirely worthless against other well equipped infantry right now and that needs to be fixed.
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>>47973119
A round through the shoulder or arm still incapacitates the person
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>>47972953
The current tool is the 84mm. The new tool will be a better rocket launcher.
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>>47973128
Is this bait? Are you going to post a Silence of the Lambs meme after this with something about brachial nerves? Or will it be a Starship Troops meme about hands?
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>>47973150
Chest plates don’t even cover most of your chest
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>>47967237
>bullpup
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>>47973210
Why not just aim for the head? It’s bigger than someone’s arm/shoulder.
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>>47973138
Mortar?
If it is a mortar how is it inadequate for the task now?
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>>47973119
>what is a pelvis shot
faggot lol
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>>47967237
everyone loves a bullpup no matter what they say
would love to have a mdr-x or aug, hell even an rdb
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>>47970813
hand over the xm8 buddy
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>>47967442
Through suffering we will have absolution
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>>47968643
Literally every MG used is open bolt, what are you on about?
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>>47970719
I don't think so. The whole project is starting from the flawed concept of going back to 7.62 because STOPPANPOWAH. Then they started writing requirements based on over match data for current issue plates while ignoring two critical facts.

1: you need to actually get a hit on target and a low recoiling round that you can carry a lot of is important. Nothing about current combat or the proliferation of body armor among RF and PRC infantry makes all the research and combat studies they did in SALVO/SPIW/Agile any less valid. It doesn't matter if your whiz-bang round can blow through both sides of Cheyenne Mountain if you can't get reliable hits. They tried to mitigate some of this with the new elctro-optic sights, but those are only effective past 300m, where it is unlikely you'll be able to see the enemy through all the intervening cover and concealment. Outside of arid, mountainous environments all that extra range and power is just wasted energy and unneeded weapon/ammo weight.

2: As soon as this is fielded there will be a 2-3 year capability gap before the Russians and/or Chinese begin fielding a better plate. There's a lot of talk about future growth of the design, but honestly, I'm not seeing it. Yeah, the peripherals will be neato with that powered rail and all, but the core rifle is already pushing against what is currently possible. I'm not a material science engineer, so who gives a fuck what I think but there's a lot of design compromises and decisions going on in that rifle in order to achieve the velocity and length requirements.

All in all I think the entire program is based on a flawed concept that inappropriately married the promising LSAT line of effort with the aborted ICSR. I really think its just the full-power advocates trying to hitch their broken wagon to a solid horse. If anything good comes from this program, it will be the 5.56 EPR projectile in the TrueVelocity case to create a lightweight M855A2-thing.
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>>47973472
russia and china don't have enough money to field new plate armor that quickly.
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>>47973319
84mm Carl Gustav M3 or M4 depending on how cool you are. A recoiless rifle/rocket launcher depending on what ammo you're using. Has timed airburst munitions. Infinitely more effected than the XMeme25 for counterdefilade and also a useful anti-armour, anti-structure and anti-fortification weapon.
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>>47973845
China is spending massive piles of money on defense, and granted Russia wouldn't be able to field large quantities quickly. However, either power would just have to field enough of them to combat soldiers to make the new rifles moot. And I think reducing your soldiers vulnerability to enemy small arms is a pretty big motivator. If the PLA wanted to protect 1/3 of its people with two plates and I'll just assume the cost per plate is twice what the US paid per ESAPI, then that cost would be ~725 million USD. Stiff, but certainly doable if the PRC expects to face the US in ground combat, which I don't think is a massively likely scenario.

It's important to get new innovations out to the field, but if you rush it you'll end up like the 8mm Lebel and hamstring yourself for decades. The polymer ammunition is a big deal, the chambering they have chosen for it, is not. The battle rifle is dead, trying to bring it back would be a mistake.
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>>47973917
>rocket launcher
NO. Just because its a tube that goes over the shoulder doesn't mean it shoots rockets. Its a recoiless rifle and its principals of operation have as much to do with a rocket system as a gas turbine has to do with a diesel.
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>>47970537
They're really bad. The recoil spring bottoms out on every shot.
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>>47970809
Textron can't win because their design has the rifle eject casings right where the user's support hand naturally rests.
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>>47974445
the support hand is a little further up but yeah I can see how that might be an issue. From the test firing videos and interviews I've seen the dudes firing it don't have a problem with it.
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>>47974445
Could just go out the front. Or just extend the tube further.
Thats an easy fix as it looks to just be a plastic molding.
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>>47973413
Mdrx is pretty kino ngl
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>>47967333
Wait wait wait, when exactly was this image taken? I know its pretty "new" because we haven't seen it with the battery attached until this one and its also using the black magazines from group images of the latest prototypes (early ones were tan), but this gun lacks the adjustable stock. Is that was the black track on the back is supposed to be? I guess the adjustable stock portion is removable and you can have the old aesthetics if you want.

Well good. Adjustable stocks on a bullpup is one of the dumber things I've ever heard was necessary or desirable. The LOP is already on the long side, how many people want it to be longer, or so much longer that they need an adjustable stock instead of just using a thicker buttpad?
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>>47974205
chinese plates suck and any soldier who wears one and gets hit will die from spalling
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>>47974735
Holding a gun that far out gets real old real fast. Even in the company's own promo vids, the hand moves over the ejection port.
>>47975217
t. some brit sitting in "fortress singapore", 1940
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>>47975217
>t. some brit sitting in "fortress singapore", 1940
they didn't have plate carriers back then
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>>47974315
You're just flat out wrong. A Carl Gustav firing RAP is a rocket launcher. A Carl Gustav firing a round that isn't RA is a recoilless rifle. Please take your ignorant aspergers elsewhere.
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>>47973472
>1: you need to actually get a hit on target and a low recoiling round that you can carry a lot of is important.

the military's combat procedure is basically throw more lead at the enemy than they throw at you. the equivalent of standing up and yelling at a bear to get it to run away. you don't need accuracy if you're throwing tons of firepower at the enemy. eventually some shots are going to hit, and it's better to have a few shots hit and be effective, rather than fire a few shots, have them hit, but be ineffective.
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>>47970385
Did they seriously have a chance to design a rifle from the ground up and put the charging handle in the same god awful spot as the M4?
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>>47975922
The Textron entry has been highly iterative. You can see that the charging handle now runs from the rear of the handguard to the optics, just beneath the 12 o'clock rail.
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>>47973389
>hits the wall they were taking cover behind, as most people do
What now
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>>47975922
You know, I wonder if the original prototype was designed by Textron themselves and so is both rough and has the trappings of the M4, but the later prototypes were HK's work and so have charging handles in their preferred position.
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>>47970719
They’re going to pick Sig.

>Already have the ammunition manufacturing capacity
>SIG platform close enough to M4 to require minimal training during transition.
>M17/18
>Sig has stated everything is made here and they can ramp up production/make adjustments with one phone call.

There is absolutely no reason they would choose another manufacturer.
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>>47976500
Except that there's no reason to pick Sig. They would abandon the project before picking Sig. I can make a stronger form of the argument you made for picking Sig the M4. It doesn't change that it would be pointless.

Most of your arguments also make no sense. Like, it will not be any cheaper or easier to train people from M4 to the Sig than to the other rifles. You're still going to have an identical proforma conversion course. The fact that Sig makes the M17 is also a bad thing - why would the army want to consolidate leverage with a single small arms supplier? I could go on, but I won't.

Unless the Sig is actually a much better rifle, it won't be picked. If it is picked, the program will be killed.
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>>47976500
>There is absolutely no reason they would choose another manufacturer.

The money savings from shipping lighter ammo

The ergonomic benefits of smaller cased telescoped ammo on the weapon design

Being able to produce more ammo, faster and cheaper since you just injection mold plastic instead of having to slowly draw out brass from a disk into a case
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>>47976500
SIG has less manufacturing capacity than either Textron or GD.
And both are already making their own cartridges for their own testing.
>>
>bullpup
>this can't go wrong!
lmao the US military is retarded, Instead of issuing literally all soldiers with new weapons that have complex shitty mechanics that are unfamilier, why don't they get someone to manufacture and contract a bunch of 6.5 sneedmore ar style rifles with new barrels. These shit rifles are going to be nightmares to repair.
>>
>>47976707
The pentagon brass is aware of the sneedmore meme and /k/ memes in general. There's no way they're going to select 6.5 at this point.
>>
>>47976532
>The fact that Sig makes the M17 is also a bad thing - why would the army want to consolidate leverage with a single small arms supplier?
There was a lengthy period of time where Colt was manufacturing both the military's service rifle and sidearm. Not unprecedented, especially if some generals are jockeying for post-service employment.



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