Ignoring current events, does this place have any history? Were they ever a real country before the Soviet Union?
>>15628361Yes, for example, the Cossacks. That region was very distinct from Russia proper for most of history. It wasn’t until Russification by the Romanovs and later communist that it became more Russian “Russian” history takes place entirely within the modern Ukrainian region for like its first 500 years. Those epic Rus Vikings actually settled in Ukraine. And before this, they had a pretty deep contact with the Greeks and Romans.And before THAT, you have the Scythians, who were in contact with the Persians and Egyptians
>>15628361No joke, they were likely the birhplace of transgenderism.http://classics.mit.edu/Hippocrates/airwatpl.22.22.html
>>15628361It's older than Russia actually.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27
>>15628388Kievan Rus is the historical period for the region, the land was actually known as The Rus geographically at the time.
>>15628391Doesn't change what I said. Le epin Russia is a direct invention of Mongols, while Rus is something totally different and much older.
>>15628404Not necessarily true because Ivan IV proclaimed himself Tsar of all the Rus renaming the territory to Rus(sia) indicating something greater in size. Ukraine didn't exist until 1991 whatsoever throughout history.
>>15628361It was a geographic idea starting in the early 19th century (the "borderland" between Russia proper and Turks/Proto-Romania/Austria) which gradually evolved into a nationality over the 19th and early 20th century. Arguably the single most important foundational event was the formation (and recognition by the Russian Provisional Government) of the Ukrainian Rada in March 1917. Before that it was really just poets and intellectuals who had any conception of "Ukraine" not just being the name of a region of Russia.Anybody who brings up the medieval Rus in a conversation about the formation of Ukraine is 100% retarded and shouldn't be taken seriously.
>>15628428>Ukraine didn't exist until 1991 whatsoever throughout history.>what is Ukrainian SSR?You are a retard lol. Modern Ukraine didn't just fall from the sky. The legal basis for it is older than 90 years, but culturally and genetically it is much older.
>>15628428Renaming something doesn't change its history. Ukraine emerged as a viking state, Russia emerged as tax collectors for the mongols>Ukraine didn't exist until 1991 whatsoever throughout history.no.
>>15628432Ukrainians have a better claim to the Kievan Rus than Russians
>>15628361>does this place have any history?Of course it does, are fucking serious?
>>15628432>just being the name of a region of Russia.Galicia was not part of Russia
>>15628466>>15628470Nothing about the Rus even slightly resembled a "state"Literally just Viking trading posts on the river-road from Scandinavia to Constantinople where 99% of the land was completely ungoverned in any capacityThere's a reason they got completely rolled over by both the Mongols and the Poles/Lithuanians
>>15628361Ukraine as a place absolutely has a long history with persistent local cultures and frequent intrusions of neighboring peoples like the Greeks, Vikings, Poles, Lithuanians, Germans, and Russians. Some cultures have largely disappeared or permutated into something unrecognizable like the Scythians and more recently the active eradication of the Crimean Tatars by the Russians. There were also aggressive attempts to Russify the region during Russian control, a side effect of Russians coming much later and their arrival overlapping with modern ideas about nationality and ethnicity.To be honest most modern countries are really absurd fabrications if you go back far enough into their histories, Ukraine as a concept definitely speaks to the shared history of a region and the current day wars are doing a lot to solidify the idea of a Ukrainian nation but its long been a meeting ground between cultures and a space that has been subjected to waves of colonialism and conquest.
>>15628428>proclaimedAnd I proclaim myself the Grand Duke of Cornwall.>Ukraine didn't exist until 1991 whatsoever throughout historyConsider consulting a history textbook for once
>>15628481Calling Galicia "Ukraine" in the 19th century would have functionally been a call for Russian Imperial expansionism
>>15628482It was as much a State at any other in western europe at the time.Not that it matters, Ukranians have a better claim to the Kievan Rus than Russians
>>15628361>does this place have any history?Yes, but not ukrainian
>>15628496your point being?
>>15628388>It'sWhat *it* exactly? Ukraine? Not really. Also novgorod was the first russian city
>>15628470No, they are not russians
>>15628498>Not that it matters, Scandinavians have a better claim to the Kievan Rus than Slavsftfy
>>15628361Nowhere in Europe hasn't been a hundred different nations over the last thousands of years. Its stupid to care where lines on maps are today while ignoring racial territory being the real item of significance.
>>15628502>russian cityRussia didn't exist until 1547Also,>no archeological evidence of novgorod before ~930 AD
>>15628504Sorry David Davidovich, you're the equivalent of an Indian claiming he's the REAL successor to the British Raj (not like those Pakis amirite)
>>15628380>Yes, for example, the Cossacks.Concentrated around the Eastern region near Crimea and largely Russian-speaking. The Ukrainian language is found in the West, in former Austria-Hungary territory.
>>15628515>Russia didn't exist until 1547Wrong
>>15628522So are ukrainians actually russians?
>>15628506kievan Rus weren't russians either
>>15628531lol, no. Western ukraine wasn't russian until recen times, and only for about 46 years
>>15628527Well, even if you account for Muscovy, the earliest date would be 1282, when it was carved out of Vladimir-Suzdal by the Mongols.
Why are russians so ashamed of their mongol ancestry?
>>15628554Destroys their entire historical narrative. Feet of clay.
>>15628506the Russian state grew out of the Duchy of Muscovy centuries after the Kievan Rus had gone into decline and splintered apart, the Duchy was also some 800 km away from the old Kievan Rus heartland. in addition the Kievan Rus' political insitutions were descendants of the early Viking rulers and osmosis from relations with the Byzantines, the institutions that governed and administered the Duchy of Muscovy were overwhelmingly inherited from the elite's role in the predatory tribute and tax system imposed by their Mongol masters. they even have different linguistic histories with Ukrainian being distinctly it's own language dating to before Muscovy was even a thing and only become further removed due to interaction with German, Yiddish, and Polish over the centuries, by the 1600s translators were needed between Ukrainian and Russian speakers as Ukrainian had come to resemble a Western Slavic language.
>>15628515Russia is quite literally successor of Rus, same as USSR is successor of Russian Empire and Russian Federation is successor of USSR.To say Rus was Kievan, because Kiev was at one point a capital of Rus' sia is laughable. How quickly this thread got derailed by seething nafos. You read through one article le ukraine mentions dating back to 900s and now think it was some legitimate state older than russia, when in reality total mentions of said ukraine to that period can only be counted on one hand.The people existed. They belonged to different states that interchanged over centuries. Ukraine did not exist formally ever until Russian Empire conquered that territory from Khans and named that region to literally be called as "territory on the border". Then during WW1 soviets released it in peace pact after surrendering to Germany because communists are retarded and they thought independent revolutions will occur all over the world, so land concessions didnt matter. Then they reconquered that land they released within few years. And now we seen a formal creation of Ukraine in 1991. Keep in mind. Ukraine, just like Russia voted to exit Soviet Union. After the exit there were independent votes in Eastern states to join Russia and they very violently supressed. Its a very circumstancially created nation and had things occured even slightly differently, we probably would have never seen that country be formed.
>>15628578>Russia is quite literally successor of Rus,why?>To say Rus was Kievan, because Kiev was at one point a capital of Rus' sia is laughable. We say it because the Rus heartland and capital was contained in modern Ukraine>Ukraine did not exist formally ever until Russian Empire conquered that territory from Khans and named that region to literally be called as "territory on the border".They didn't conquer western ukraine
>>15628428>Ukraine didn't exist until 1991 whatsoever throughout history.Ukrainian SSR just fucking dropped out of the sky because Lenin imagined it then?
>>15628552>MuscovyThere were no such state
>>15628484>To be honest most modern countries are really absurd fabrications if you go back far enough into their histories,Seriously, Ukraine's existence as separate from Russia is no more or less absurd than Norway breaking away from Sweden and Denmark, or Portugal being distinct from Spain.
>>15628543Daniil Galitsky called himself a Russian jfyi
>>15628596By your logic, Russia lays claim to entire Mongol Empire because it at one point governed the land on which modern Russia lays. The nations identity is a little more complex than that.>Russia is quite literally successor of Rus,>why?Maybe because Rus' quite literally means Russian land? If anything, the fact that Kiev was at one point a capital of russian land reinforces russian claim to ukraine
>>15628554Ukrainians are anthropologically closer to Asians than Russians
>>15628638That was before muscovites usurped the name though
>>15628498there was more jews in Kiev than ukranians in early 20 centuryukranian identity comes from peasants who are rural folk ie object of history not a subject+Kiev were literally bought by Russian Empire from Poland
>>15628534It was, but it wasnt kievan
>>15628639>muh nameIs there any cotinuity between the kievan Rus state and modern Russia?
>>15628633>Seriously, Ukraine's existence as separate from Russia is no more or less absurd than Norway breaking away from Sweden and Denmark, or Portugal being distinct from SpainDefinitely a big difference. Ukraine has been its own state for 30 years. Portugal and Norway for at least 800 years as Kingdoms.
>>15628654western ukraine was not part of Russia though
>>15628576>the Russian state grew out of theNovgorod
>>15628578>Russia is quite literally successor of RusIn the same way HRE is a true Roman empire (it's very clearly not)>USSR is successor of Russian EmpireThey took over most the territory of the russian empire, but the are not russian empire, since they literally killed, expelled, repressed the people in charge of it. >Russian Federation is successor of USSR*one of the>To say Rus was Kievan, because Kiev was at one point a capital of Rus' sia is laughable.But Kyiv was the most important city of the Rus'>How quickly this thread got derailed by seething nafos. You read through one article le ukraine mentions dating back to 900s and now think it was some legitimate state older than russia, when in reality total mentions of said ukraine to that period can only be counted on one hand.History of Ukraine is a centuries-long struggle for independence.>Ukraine did not exist formally ever until Russian Empire conquered that territory from Khans and named that region to literally be called as "territory on the border".Now you are just straight up making shit up, since the toponym "Vkraina" is mentioned in Kyivan Chronicle from ~1200. >Then during WW1 soviets released it in peace pact... .Exept for the fact that UNR proclaimed independence a year before that>And now we seen a formal creation of Ukraine in 1991.No? Google UNR government in exile. >Keep in mind. Ukraine, just like Russia voted to exit Soviet Union.Ah, the infamous self-contradictory referendum that didn't mean shit. >After the exit there were independent votes in Eastern states to join Russia and they very violently supressed.No? Where the fuck do you get that shit from? > had things occured even slightly differently, we probably would have never seen that country be formed.I don't think so. Not with national self-consciousness awaking across Europe.
>>15628653Yes, a lot of. Also there were no kievan rus', it was just rus'
>>15628654And Canada has only been an independent state since 1983. Pack it up, boys, the country obviously isn't real and we're all actually British again now.Age, despite what some Euros think, does not determine how real a country is or not. If there's people there who say "I am Ukrainian" and they fight to defend that, then it's a real country. The fact that Ukrainians have *not* folded and are still fighting is indicative of a very real identity. Fake countries are like Afghanistan, they roll over in a single weekend.
>>15628653You realise the Rus was initially just on modern Russian/Belarussian land and it only then conqiered kiev and moved their capitol there?And you're saying Kievan Rus is Ukrainian because it had Kiev in its name? Do you know see how retarded your political prejudices make you sound?
>>15628670The Grand Duchy of Moscow (Russian: Beликoe княжecтвo Mocкoвcкoe, romanized: _Velikoye knyazhestvo Moskovskoye_This is its real name
>>15628663>In the same way HRE is a true Roman empire (it's very clearly not)rus is a subject of rus(rurikids)russia is a subject of rurikidsloss of some land out of rurikid control makes them not russiando even aware how feudalism works?
>>15628660>NovgorodMuscovites literally sacked Novgorod
>>15628659You keep reposting that in the thread as if it matters
>>15628682That's what I said, Muscovy
>>15628687rurikidssubject of feudal society is nobility,not localitykeep your statist revisionism for kindergartners
>>15628687and the Kiev principality destroyed Chernihov and Galicia Volyn
>>15628688It does though. Modern russians imperialist claim that all of Ukraine has always belonged to russia, this is false
>>15628698It is not
>>15628388no one cares about your political opinion fag, moscow was owned by a prince of novgorod, the initial capital, and the same dynasty that created modern russia also created the kievan rus, they were all one back then.no matter how much you cry about it the fact wont change.
>>15628685>rus is a subject of rus(rurikids)With a big asterisk>russia is a subject of rurikidsOne of the branches in a short period between 1574 and 1610.>loss of some land out of rurikid control makes them not russianIf you domain is confined to some far away settler frontier in a swamp, you are no one. >do even aware how feudalism works?Oh, I do. But it's not a question of feudalism here. It's a question of common sense.
>>15628702>rurikidsWas it some sort of rurikid himself walking house to house torching stuff?
>>15628707It literally is
>>15628663Argument is retarded. Its same as saying French Republic is not successor of Kingdom of France because the government body changed. In regards to Kiev argument, see >>15628679They conquered the city and put a capitol there. Kiev dindt conquer them. They conquered Kiev.It seems like a lot of you guys are amateurs at the topic, but you you go selectively learning on "how to prove your talking point.com". Problem with that is that you dont actually learn history, you just learn bare minimum evidence to backup your retarded claims whilst not knowing the context
>>15628704>Modern russians imperialist claimThis is a /his/tory discussion about history. Take your nafo troon uhg ass back to pol and go preach there. Im sorry the actual history does not agree with your gay ass talking points
>>15628747Again, no archeological evidence of novgorod before ~930/40>It seems like a lot of you guys are amateurs at the topic, but you you go selectively learning on "how to prove your talking point.com". Problem with that is that you dont actually learn history, you just learn bare minimum evidence to backup your retarded claims whilst not knowing the contextRussian historiography is a fucking farce
>>15628729To be fair, until Russia's unification its all subjective. We cant really look as if every time someone conquered one small state, it immediately means everything has changed.
>>15628757At this point you're not even making related arguments, but just embarassing yourself. I'm sorry little buddy, but Russia will win and reclaim what its lost from Ukraine. That is inevitable and this little thread is not your sole domain to seethe about it. Go outside for a walk. All this Rus hating is bad for your health
>>15628380>THAT, you have the ScythiansOSSETIANS = SCYTHIANS
>>15628745So the real name of ukrainians is kuevites
>>15628747They actually are ukrainians who spread ukrainian propaganda here
>>15628361None of the slavic countries were real countries before USSR to be honest, they were all part of Kievan Rus, which was a scandanavian colony. Russians treat Kievan Rus as some kind of golden age for their people, but it wasn't even run by Slavs, it was run by Nords.>>15628380>And before THAT, you have the Scythians, who were in contact with the Persians and EgyptiansNot a unique feature to them, and totally irrelevant to their history. Are you suggesting that Ossetians and Parthians are Ukrainian people?
>>15629034>Kievan RusWhen will you stop using this fake name
>>15629034>None of the slavic countries were real countries before USSR to be honestAlso wrong >>15629034>which was a scandanavian colonyWrong>>15629034>but it wasn't even run by Slavs, it was run by Nords.And wrong
>>15628729there may be made direct analogies with carolingiansyou're the one who rejects objective norms of time in favor for anachronistic fantasies>If you domain is confined to some far away settler frontier in a swamp, you are no one. blood and hierarchy in legal order decidepeople hold power not places
>>15628734territories are not acting you're pathetic cretin
>>15629043It's what it's known by so that's what I'll use.>>15629047> doesn't elaborateWhatever you say, slav farming equipment. Just know that Rurik wouldn't put any of you in good regard.
One of the most important regions in the world for ancient genetics and haploautists as this is probably the homeland of the Western Steppe Herder genetic profile (Sredny Stog - Indo-Europeans).
Slavs who were initially close to/identical to modern Russians on account of being the capital of the Kievan Rus who spent a few centuries getting bunga-bunga'd by poles [Commonwealth] and then a century or two after that getting bunga-bunga'd by Germans in the far-western part of the country [Austrian-Empire, Lemburg] while the Russian's were getting bunga-bunga'd by half of asia. So as a result their speaking style / dialect / language is basically Russian warped with Polish and the written Ukrainian language is expressed in Latin like Polish and not Cyrillic like Russian.I ultimately don't understand the autism with Russians trying to prove their 'brotherhood and unity' or something to that effect, Ethnos for the most part is sorta a self-referential thing imo.>BUT IF YOU LOOK AT DA GENE'S AND IF YOU LOOK AT DA KIEVAN RUS' WE ARE BOTH THE SA-Yeah but they DON'T THINK OF THEMSELVES AS RUSSIAN. The almost exact same thing could be said of Serbs-Croats [And they don't even PRETEND to speak a different language.] but if you go up to a Croatian and call him Serbian or vice-versa, he will refuse you, because HE IS CROATIAN, He is most definitely NOT Serbian, and views them as the outsider.
>>15629135all the real (confirmed in historical sources) first kings of Russia had Slavic names (Vladimir, Svyatoslav, Yaroslav)
>>15629766Half of ukraine was ander rule of Crimea tatars and kiev was captured by mongols while novgorod wasn't. Also Ukrainian identity mostly began to be forcibly imposed by the Bolsheviks after 1917
>>15629766>written Ukrainian language is expressed in Latin like PolishAnd this just a lie
They're one of the many ethnicities that tried to create their own nations in the age of nationalism except unlike Italy and Germany, they failedHad they succeeded they would have been considered a nation same as the ones above