DEFEND THIS RIGHT NOW
The vatican was one of the leading proponents of fake news against the Nazis and claimed they murdered millions of retards and cripples in germany but that was sort of forgotten in favor of the holobunga
>>15627632Wtf has H.G Wells just been vindicated?
>>15627632WHAT THE FUCK WHY DIDN'T THEY INTERVENE????????
>>15627651>>15627644honest question, if nazis werent le epic pagan warrior darwinists cleansing europa of retards and jews and stomping out petty slave morality, then why do neonazis even like them? once you white wash away all the ideological extremist action, youre basically left with nothing but histories most incompetent leadership which committed catastrophic geopolitical blunders they were not ion any way prepared to handle, and utterly destroying the white race in the process
>>15627632What needs to be defended?
>On September 18, 1942, Pius’ assistant, the future Pope Paul VI, received an eyewitness report of “incredible butchery” of Jews in Warsaw. One month prior, Ukrainian Archbishop Andrzej Szeptycki had delivered a similar report informing the pope of atrocities carried out in the Lviv Ghetto, reports Haaretz’s Ofer Aderet.>Soon after, the United States’ envoy to the Vatican asked if it could corroborate accounts of mass killings in Warsaw and Lviv. In response, Vatican Secretary of State Luigi Maglione reportedly stated, “I don’t believe we have information that confirms this serious news in detail.”>While sifting through the papers, the researchers also found a memo from a Vatican staffer that warned against believing the reports, dismissing these accounts on the grounds that Jews “easily exaggerate” and “Orientals”—a reference to Archbishop Sheptytsky—“are really not an example of honesty.”oof
>>15627632I bet he told you every sunday at 11pm that people were dying and that suffering had to end
The opening of the archives has not been a good look for Pius. Afaik he didn't bother intervening to save Jews unless they were converts to Catholicism.
>>15627686Because admitting it would make them look like an evil ideology, therefore they lie about it.
>>15627813>>15627673What the fuck do you guys even mean by "intervene"? What did you expect the Vatican to do? Send soldiers to fight?
>>15627824You reckon if the Pope went onto the radio and said "The Nazis are evil, they are doing evil things and I'm calling on every Catholic to fight them however they can" there wouldn't be millions of 20th century crusaders lining up to fight?
>>15627824It's not about how many divisions he has. He could have used his platform to more vociferously denounce the Germans, which would have strained Nazi-Catholic relationships, and fomented greater disobedience. He didn't because he worried about greater Catholic persecution and the sidelining of his own authority.It comes down to a choice of political expediency over principle. You'd expect the Pope to choose the latter, not the former.
>>15627824Palmist apologism is unreal.
>>15627857>>15627843>>15627834The Holocaust wasn’t evil though
>>15627843No there wouldn't? What kind of retard are you? It wasn't the middle ages, it was the the 20th century, everyone who was already against the Nazis was already fighting them, and those who didn't either had already chosen to keep their heads down or had joined them.>>15627843>He could have used his platform to more vociferously denounce the GermansAll that the pope would've accomplished with that would've been to add Catholics to the list of Nazi victims, the pope had already tried to speak against Germany's invasion of Poland, and all that he accomplished was more violence against Polish catholics.>which would have strained Nazi-Catholic relationships, and fomented greater disobedienceWhen? When Hitler and the Nazis were already in power? Again, the Nazi regime was already suppressing Catholics, are you saying that the pope should've encouraged them to put their own lives at risk.>He didn't because he worried about greater Catholic persecution and the sidelining of his own authority.And I really don't understand why you don't consider this to be perfectly valid and understandable reasons.>It comes down to a choice of political expediency over principle. You'd expect the Pope to choose the latter, not the former.Why? The Pope has a responsibility to ensure the continuation of the church and its members, to actively encourage Catholics to put themselves in harm's way and their families is psychotic, it's really quite shocking for me to see people who geniunely think that the Catholic Church should've just let itself be destroyed for the sake of making a point.
>>15627692Holy fucking based
>>15627874Your argument boils down to, "The Machiavellian approach was the correct one for exactly the suspected reasons." Of course, nobody can say for sure what the Pope speaking up would have done. Imagining Hitler exterminating all Catholics seems unlikely.There's no objective right or wrong on this score. It just sounds to most people craven, un-pope-like, and not standing in the highest traditions of Christianity, which is why the Church stresses that you're wrong and Pius did everything he could, when the record suggests he really didn't.
>>15627843>he worried about greater Catholic persecutionHow evil and untenable a leader to value those he leads. Truly unforgivable conduct not to prefer the wellbeing of Jews, for whatever reason.
>>15627899Doing something good is craven?
>>15627915If you define "good" as "looking after your own faction and letting the others to the wolves", then yeah. The Catholic Church doesn't.
>>15627922But the Jews were the wolves
>>15627632>OH MY GOD SOMEONE KNEW ABOUT THE HOLOCAUST Literally everybody knew, how exactly would you expect an organized extermination effort to remain secret ?True, the Church did very little to stop this, but they did organize networks to help people flee Germany and German-occupied territory under the guise of ecclesiastical activity, with the goal of bringing them to the relative safety of neutral Spain, from where the Franco regime treated them leniently and let them go wherever. Interestingly enough, these networks did not care at all who they were helping, so after helping tens of thousands of Jews escape, they also helped thousands of Nazis escape too, which led to some interesting situations after the end of the war.
>>15627899>Your argument boils down to, "The Machiavellian approach was the correct one for exactly the suspected reasons." Yes? You hold the Vatican to some sort of weird higher moral standard for some reason? Have you forgotten that the Vatican is a state all in its own right, and and as such seeks to preserve the continuation of its own existence, like any other? Are you a Catholic yourself? Because otherwise I really don't understand why do you have this weird higher standards when it comes to the Catholic Church.>Of course, nobody can say for sure what the Pope speaking up would have done. Imagining Hitler exterminating all Catholics seems unlikely.Not all, of course he couldn't have, but it would've put the lives of far more Catholics in danger than they already were, he threw Jews, Jehova's Witnesses, Blacks, Gypsies, homosexuals, slavs, poles and disabled people in concentration camps, why couldn't he have done the same to Catholics? If that were the case the RCC would instead be blamed for putting the lives of its own followers in more danger and being unecessarily aggressive towards the Nazis just for the sake of moral grandstanding and virtue signaling some other bullshit on those lines.>There's no objective right or wrong on this score. The people ITT seem to think there is.>It just sounds to most people craven, un-pope-like, and not standing in the highest traditions of Christianity,Those "most people" don't seem to know an iota of Church history, I'd recommend they research the early centuries of Chirsitanity during the time of the Roman Empire.>which is why the Church stresses that you're wrong and Pius did everything he could, when the record suggests he really didn't.https://historyforatheists.com/2019/05/the-great-myths-7-hitlers-pope/Please educate yourself.
>>15627936Yes me They did nothing wrong and there’s nothing to defend
>>15627686I don't think acknowledging that there were no gas vans and that most warcrimes were invented to justify the war has anything to do with being a neonazi
>>15627922>If you define "good" as "looking after your own faction and letting the others to the wolves", then yeah.Are you saying that's what the Catholic Church did during WWII? Really? I ask you again, what else could the pope have done? Speak openly and vociferously against Hitler and the Nazis? All that it would've accomplished would've been to have gotten more Catholics killed, and the Church probably supressed and dismantled by Mussolini. People act as if the Pope had a million strong standing army ready to go and chose to do nothing, in what world are these people living on? They seem to think that the CC as it is today is the same CC of the middle ages, with vast amounts of power, influence and military force, the CC's power today is miniscule, but for some reason people think that the Pope could've done a massive difference and chose not to, why?
>>15627950Except 100% of the people spouting false statements like that are neonazis
>>15627899>It just sounds to most people craven, un-pope-like, and not standing in the highest traditions of ChristianityPutting your own flock in more risk than they already are in a no-win scenario by speaking up against a far more powerful enemy that you yourself have next to no means of fighting by yourself and protecting your followers, also while being completely surrounded by your enemy's ally is not uncraven, pope-like, and standing in the highest traditions of Christianity?
>>15627632Wtf were they supposed to do? How many battalions does the Pope have?There were a lot of priests who sheltered and aided Jews, and the Catholic hierarchy in the Reich took a strong stand against the deportations of Jews and what we call now Aktion T4.A lot of propaganda against the Pope at the time was instigated by the USSR after the war in order to crush the Catholic church in the Eastern Bloc.
>>15627982>Wtf were they supposed to do?Let their own Church be destroyed and their followers be persecuted and killed completely for the sake of moral brownie points, apparently.
>>15627982>Wtf were they supposed to do?Die, die with honor.
>>15627824He could have:Excommunicate members of the nazi party before the war.Actually go after Hitler and the nazi party in his "Mit brennender Sorge" instead of nonsense that didn't do anything because it was so vague.Revoke the Reichskonkordat.Suppress the bishops who supported hitler.Declare the Zentrum party as no longer the catholic German party for telling their voters to vote for Hitler.There were plenty of opportunities for him to build a catholic resistance against the workers party before the war.
>>15627995You first champ.
>>15628036>Excommunicate members of the nazi party before the war.https://historyforatheists.com/2019/05/the-great-myths-7-hitlers-pope/>Actually go after Hitler and the nazi party in his "Mit brennender Sorge" instead of nonsense that didn't do anything because it was so vague.Again, all that it would've accompished would've been to put more Catholics at risk.>Revoke the Reichskonkordat.Again, only would've put more Catholics in danger, it wouldn't have accomplished anything of value.>Suppress the bishops who supported hitler.He did.>Declare the Zentrum party as no longer the catholic German party for telling their voters to vote for Hitler.And what would that have accomplished?>There were plenty of opportunities for him to build a catholic resistance against the workers party before the war.Just so that they would all be imprisoned and killed, like it happened with the communists and anarchist, and eventually anyone who didn't fully agree with the Nazis? Anon, let me be clear on this, it took three, THREE major world powers united to stop the Nazis, there's absolutely zero that the CC could have done to prevent the rise of fascism.
>>15628077>Catholics at riskWhat's the point of Christians rejecting the practice of worshiping roman emperors? They should have just bent the knee since refusing to give them worship caused martyrdom.>And what would that have accomplished?>there's absolutely zero that the CC could have done to prevent the rise of fascism.What causes this mental retardation?
>>15628110>What's the point of Christians rejecting the practice of worshiping roman emperors? They should have just bent the knee since refusing to give them worship caused martyrdom.There's a very, very big difference between deciding to stand by your beliefs and being willing to face the consequences yourself, and someone else putting YOU at risk by THEIR actions without your consent.Also, afaik no one was asking German Catholics to worship Hitler, so this comparison is retarded.
>>15627982Idk. Maybe say something to the public. Palpists are literally complicit over murder.
>>15627632>Defend ThisI don't like the people who were in the camps.
>>15627660>Important public men like yourself are not "common men". Of course, history alone can show how important this or that public man has been; at all events, you do not look at the world as a "common man."
>>15627632>holocaust ""atrocities""Nice try JIDF. There is no evidence for ""gas chambers"", nor a Hitler order.
>>15627632So you believe them when they say this but you won't believe them when they read the bible?
>>15627834Not really antisemitism was really bad back then, and there was tons of violence at the time remember how most of these countries had actual empires, and their fathers fought in the bloodiest war in the world at the time. Also a ton of countries already rejected jewish refugees when they had the chance.
>>15628505no i believe they read the bible
>>15627686Something about being anti-communist, I guess. It's kind of the same wheelhouse as being a Stalinist, where advocates will take credit for opposing a great enemy even though they were actually enabling that enemy geopolitically the entire time.
>>15627943>Because otherwise I really don't understand why do you have this weird higher standards when it comes to the Catholic Church.Are you retarded? Do you really actually lack the mental faculties to understand why someone would have higher moral standards for a theocracy that preaches morality and benevolence than a secular state?>why couldn't he have done the same to Catholics?Are you retarded? Maybe because catholics represented 41% of Germany’s population and they would be far harder to oppress than a minority?
I mean, the Vatican protected Nazi refugees so why would they say anything.
>>15627899No, this falls under just way theory. It was neither clear a successful war would oppose the Nazis at that time nor that there was a coalition of Allies who would fight according to narrow rules governing the Vatican theory of just war. Fact of the matter is, the Vatican still thinks wars should be fought by three hundred year old standards which was the last time they had to hash out some limits. Plus the idea the pope says jump and millions of young men will, is a fantasy. How about they stop watching porn first, like he already demands?
>>15629328>Are you retarded?>Are you retarded?Is there an echo in your head?It doesn’t matter how many men opposed Hitler, they had no guns and any leadership which would try to organize against him will find themselves dead within days of any opposition. You live in a fantasy where logistics and leadership don’t matter.
>>15627834Canaris already had to foil at least one scheme by Hitler to kill the Pope. If he had gone out and publicly blown the whistle on the Final Solution, the Vatican would have been flattened by the Luftwaffe in short order.
In this thread>liberals seething>jews seething>protestants seethingToday is a good day
>>15627632The Catholic Church saved thousands of Jews and many more thousand Christians during the war. All while doing it’s best to end it on both sides. For all its heroic efforts you still drag its name through the mud. Vatican II was a mistake.
>>15629389>My faith is measured by how much everyone else seethes at meThe noble Catholic worshipper, everyone. Go kiss some Africans' feet with your pops.
>>15627660I thought he could use punctuation better than that.
>>15627977>Except 100% of the people spouting false statements like that are neonazisNice argument Senator, why don't you back it up with a source.
>>15629389>Christianity still dying Indeed today was a good day
>>15629967Seething right infront of him only makes his day better anon
>>15627969Anyone who didn't mindlessly throw themselves into the war against Germany like it was their duty as a human was a bad guy, you see.The same thing happens with Petain, who prioritized the survival of the French people under occupation over rabidly sticking it to the Germans and gets demonized for it.
>>15630961You think like a simple minded child. You judge people with hindsight. You overvalue your own opinions. And you are objectively a worse person than the Nazis.
>>15627651>murdered millions of retards and cripplesbut why would they attack their own party?
Not reading most of the gay retarded wehraboo vs jude shitflinging in here. I have a more interesting question. If the the vatican called for a war / crusade, do you think Catholics and/or ostensibly Catholic nations would actually go to war? When was the last time a Pope exercised overt political power?
>>15631579>When was the last time a Pope exercised overt political power?Excommunicating southern segregationist. Destroying internal support for the Salazar regime by releasing the encyclical "Populorum Progressio" which condemned nationalism and racism.
>>15631579>If the the vatican called for a war / crusade, do you think Catholics and/or ostensibly Catholic nations would actually go to war?Absolutely not lol.But it could have had a real political impact. If the Pope made a public statement against the Nazis and called on Catholics to resist, he could still have mobilized Catholics to protest en masse and resist the Nazi government.Now of course the Pope was in a precarious political situation while Rome was still controlled by Mussolini and later German occupiers, and there was a risk of persecution of Catholics by the Germans.However I think the influence that German Catholic Bishops had on ending the Euthanasia program in German mental hospitals shows that they were not powerless, and a public statement from the Pope no less would have put serious political pressure on the Nazi regime.
>>15631627>shows that they were not powerlessYou just don't get it. They had no influence whatsoever
>>15631627nigga i wasn't talkin about the thread topic. I agree it would've had impact though. I was more wondering what Catholics would think about a papal political act / call to crusade in the current year
>>15627632Contextless clickbait refuted by, of all people, the boomers at the Catholic League>https://www.catholicleague.org/pius-xii-the-latest-attempted-smear/>Father König urged the Holy See to not make public what he was revealing in the letter because he feared for his own life and the lives of the others who had provided the intelligence. This is but one of several such messages that Pius had to take into account when he chose action and diplomacy over banging away at the bully pulpit."Denouncing" Hitler would have done nothing other than ramp up the anticlerical attacks that the Nazis were already undertaking.
>>15627692>dismissing these accounts on the grounds that Jews “easily exaggerate” and “Orientals”—a reference to Archbishop Sheptytsky—“are really not an example of honesty.”Is he wrong?
>>156280771st, 2nd, and 3rd largest economies https://www.statista.com/statistics/1334182/wwii-pre-war-gdp/
>>15627692>>While sifting through the papers, the researchers also found a memo from a Vatican staffer that warned against believing the reports, dismissing these accounts on the grounds that Jews “easily exaggerate” and “Orientals”—a reference to Archbishop Sheptytsky—“are really not an example of honesty.”The Catholic church has fallen far these past 80 years.
>>15627950>there were no gas vansThere were.https://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2015/10/contemporary-german-documents-on.htmlhttps://imgur.com/gallery/GdGDg
>DEFEND THIS RIGHT NOWThere is nothing wrong with physically exterminating people who killed our savior Jesus Christ and are synagogue of satan Simple as that
>>15627692Its kind of insane how pre-internet it was so easy to hide atrocities.Nowadays one pogrom happens and there are videos of it everywhere within hours Makes me wonder how many genocides went unnoticed by history
>>15627632wtf I love the Vatican now
>>15631914Well the whole story of Jews being slaves in Egypt was something they made up too, so...
>>15633421the catholic church has been taking Ls for over 500 years, anyone who could see through machiavelli's thinly veiled criticisms of the borgias was aware of how cynical the religion had become, even back then
>>15635013>for over 500 years500 years ago Catholicism was taking over the world, the fuck are you talking about? 500 years ago Catholic Spain and Portugal were swallowing up the Americas and converting an entire continent's worth of people to Catholicism, Ignatius of Loyola and the Jesuits were going to all the corners of the earth and converting people everywhere they went, yes the Protestant reformation happened, but the Catholic Church struck right back with the Counterreformation. 500 year ago Catholicism was at the top of the world, which is why it's the largest Christian denomination till today. The true fall of Catholicism has been happening, I'd say, since the 18th century onwards, and it's been a very slow decline, it's only now since the 1960s onwards that this decline has been accelerating.