>dude cleopatra had such an amazing ideawow dragging ships across desert and cutting egypt's red sea trade route would pressure octavian for reason and not just immediately backfire >even more genius is her idea to escape to the indo greek kingdom in pakistan nevermind the fact that kingdom was split into multiple petty kingdoms was literally on the verge of being wiped out by steppeniggers I can't take his cleopatra shilling seriously
I turned it off just under 2/3 of the way through, as soon as he mentioned modern braindead politics again.I'm totally done with his content after that, it got shittier and preachy af.
>>15103093It was a good idea considering that the alternative was certain death. Octavian demonstrated he was willing to make certain concessions for economic reasons. Dragging ships like that was not a new thing for the Egyptians either. You had to do it all the time at the Nile cataracts, so they knew how to move ships across land. >>15103448I don't recall any mention of modern politics so it much have been quite brief. Honestly it seems since he came out as a leftists and dunked on Caesar this board has been a lot harsher on his videos that they deserve.
>>15103093Cleopatra was a shining example of Black excellence which you of course resent cause you are a chud.Octavian was a racist POS that felt threatened by a strong queen of Egypt and as such I'm glad this new generation of historians such as picrel are exposing Octavian for who he was (a murdering chud).
>>15103093What happened to him? He used to praise Caezar, then because he killed some faggot rebels he's suddenly the antichrist and the snakes that killed him are the good guys>Octavian bad>Nothing he did is his own achievement>Cleopatra lost because muh Anthony>Muh Anthony muh Anthony muh Anthony>Anthony killed his wife so he's the antichrist but Cleopatra asking Caezar to kill her sister is not that badHipocrite. Don't even get me started on the Cicero wank
>>15104369He praised him as a general and as a schemer. I don't recall him ever praising his moral character. Also I've loved Roman for years but I always sympathized with the likes of Cicero over the Caesars and it frankly blows my mind that so many people feel the opposite.
>>15103093>wow dragging ships across desert and cutting egypt's red sea trade route would pressure octavian for reason and not just immediately backfireIt would allow for Cleo, Antony, and their kids to just leave and continue living their life.Compared to staying in Egypt, and being either executed or put in a triumph, it was the better idea
>>15103626>It was a good ideaLiving as a refugee at the mercy of some foreign ruler is not a great idea by any standard. And hoping that their dinky navy in the red sea could actually do squat was delusional.
>>15104536Don't be so sure. Look at how it turned out for Pompey or Hannibal.
>>15104540>Living as a refugee at the mercy of some foreign ruler is not a great idea by any standard. The upper class of the ancient world did this all the time. It was quite normal even Roman aristocrats did it. They were often allowed to live in the Royal court, and even marry into it.
>>15103093What else did you expect from Histantifa Civilis?
>>15104419Kys faggot
Is Antony and Cleopatra as hot as Romeo and Juliet and worth a watch, or does it suck and I should just watch the Merchant of Venice again?
I think it‘s amazing how despite his attempt of trying to get his audience to think positively of Cleopatra, his video actually supports the sneaky eastern Witch narrative.>Anthony was going to give away the Roman East to Cleopatra, disowned his Roman kids and let her Dynasty rule >cowardly eastern troops are cowards, who abandon him >the Egyptian navy despite being nominally better is incompetent, useless and treacherous>Cleopatra abandoned him in his time of need and probably rationalized it in her female mind as making sense>he dies like a simp, they don’t even get the double suicide right, she betrays him even in deathThere is a reason why in the Old Testament the Semitic Jews warns us about semitic women.
>>15104900Yeah the contrast between how he portrays Antony and Cleopatra is amazing.
>>15104921I remember this board thought he praised Antony because he did some apologia for his plan for the east in one video, this in spite of the fact he usually portrays Anthony as a bit of a fuck up.
>>15104999>I remember this board thought he praised Antony because he did some apologia for his plan for the east in one videoWell it involved cleopatra adn even then he still called it a genius plan.
>>15105004Its been awhile since I watched it but I believe he called it maybe not as bad as its usually portrayed. I don't think he implied it was genius.
>>15105012>don't think he implied it was geniusHe didnt imply it he outright stated it
>>15105068Did he? I don't remember that, though it has been while.
>>15105075Why dont you just watch it?
I don't see the point in caring about this issue at all. Cleopatra could be the patra from whence came the cleo and it not make a difference because she was coming up against fucking Agrippa
>>15103626Purple is the noblest shroud.
>>15103093hate this fuck, talking about americas lack of walkable cities in a cleopatra video, he needs humbling via a greased whip
>>15103791Octchudian was basically a hecking school shooter, and a neo-nazi. All these CIS HET WHITE MALES are INCELS.
I'm so sick of people blackwashing Egyptians. They're fucking yellow Arabic looking pagan motherfuckers that Europeans decided to include with Africa which everyone now automatically equates with black.
>>15105454Who asked?
>historia civilisyou guys didnt grow out of this revisionist shill already?
>>15105627Revisionist in what way? Most of what he says about Roman history is pretty mainstream. Of course in most history departments people who use revisionist as an insult tend to get laughed at, since any newly written history is usually in some way a revision.
>>15105578I did
>>15105810>octavian bad>Cleopatra good>ceasar bad>senate good>gauls good>crassus bad >pompey goodliterally taking sides and presenting his own headcanon motivations as fact instead of reporting on the history in an unbiased manner, it's embarrassing and you should maybe crack a fucking book written by someone qualified for once in your life and youd recognize it immediately.
>>15106019Historians have been giving opinions on things like that for centuries. Personally I usually perfer my history to be somewhat nonjudgmental, at least from a modern perspective, but the morality of the end of the Roman Republic has been a matter of public debate since it happened. The Romans commented on it, medieval people commented on it. These vids are not professional level history, which would frankly be very indigestible and uninteresting to a casual audience, and I don't expect them to be. That said, if this were a story and not history, all those labels would be right, except Pompey and maybe Cleopatra, she's merely sympathetic.
>clearly separates his opinion from the simple retelling of the story>explains when sources are particularly murkylooks like you just got filtered. only things that annoyed me are the increasing abundance of memes. >>15103448The part about mixed used urbanism being illegal to build in the US was a meme dude
>>15106038
>>15106054>bro you got heckin filtered!nah, the only source you need is gibbon or Mike Duncan but none of you pseuds are ready for that
>>15106092Is this a joke?
>>15104547The remaining Indo-Greek kingdoms were permanently out of Roman reach and influence, though. You know, since the Parthians were in the way. They would have zero interest in placating the Romans in any way.
>>15106019>>15105810Cleopatra and her brother did nothing wrong.
>>15106019You do know that apart from Cleopatra being good and Octavian being bad, rest of those were for VERY long the orthodox view Also how the fuck do you get him praising Pompey from the videos
>>15106092The only source about Rome you ever need to understand 19th century Germany is Mommsen.
>>15106092Worst thing about getting old is seeing why people used to complain about people posting back in the day and realizing they were all right all alongT. 2010 newfag
>>15103093The thing that got me is how he goes into all this particular detail about how Marc Anthony and Cleopatra said and did this while around like two other people. Then he cuts to Octavian receiving news about Anthony’s death.>Octavian is at camp around probably 100s if not 1000s of men>Is informed about Anthony’s death>Octavian starts crying>”I don’t believe it.”He just shits on Octavian and other so hard for no real reason and jerks off cleopatra—obviously it’s because of his politics. He feels the need to tear down the traditional great man of history in this period (who actually deserves some respect for his accomplishments) and elevate the literal whore who lost.
>>15103093>was literally on the verge of being wiped out by steppeniggersactually it was almost completely finished with only a few cities and settlements remaining. Can't believe "Historia" Civilis put this shit in a video
>>15107650I don't really believe it either. Octavian was clearly willing to kill in order to rise in the world, He fomented and really started the war in order to eliminate a rival. Do all these criticisms come down to disliking these strongmen being criticized? That's stupid.
Somebody is going to have to explain to me why Antony and Cleopatra didn't just buy a boat docked in the Red Sea and leave. Hauling an entire fleet over land is literally completely retarded.
>>15107740I don’t care if he doesn’t believe it or not, I can see why one could reasonably question it, but he’s clearly tilted in some way.>oh yeah, this thing cleopatra said and did that put her in a positive light definitely happened.>only 3 people could’ve attested to it>meanwhile this thing that put Octavian in a good/human light definitely didn’t happen despite there potentially being way more witnessesHe doesn’t even qualify anything about cleopatra’s last days and what she does despite all of her ladies in waiting seemingly dying as well. So who the fuck even passed these stories on?And it’s not just this video. Throughout the series with octavian, he constantly shits on him every chance he gets. It’s obvious he just straight up doesn’t like Octavian.
>>15107794> Throughout the series with Octavian, he constantly shits on him every chance he gets. It’s obvious he just straight up doesn’t like Octavian.You are correct. I don't really like him either so I guess it doesn't bother me.
>>15104369I recall him saying something like “more politics is always good” and that’s why he preferred the republic between Caesar dictatorship
>>15107805You’re retarded for not liking him
>>15108546I tend not to like dictators or tyrants but I'm not surprised that a lot of people here do.
Watching his rome videos all this time made me realize I didn't really care about Roman history, I just liked Caesar. Shit got real boring once he died.
>>15109142I guarantee there’s some retard you jerk off that’s just as tyrannical, if not more tyrannical, than Octavian. I’m not even an Octavian fan btw
It's always weird for me when people develop hate boners for fictional characters or celebs or historical figures. Identifying with what you hate is so lame and gay.
>>15109142You’re a fucking retard
>>15103093It was a genuinely good idea? They had no other place to flee to and no way of defeating Octavian. That was probably the only way for them to survive and possibly get some concessions too.
>>15104540Oh ok let's just fucking die then.
>>15107389> Octavian being bad not orthodox viewMost of the Roman historians specifically agree and comment on Octavian being a rotten snake prior to taking power, then suddenly being magically transmuted into a benevolent leader.
>>15109497>specifically agree and comment onlike for example?
>>15109522My favourite and the one I know off the top of my head is from Julian's The Caesars. There are a few others I recall, like the quote from some historian that Titus wouldn't have had his good reputation had he lived longer nor Augustus had he died earlier meaning wouldn't have been able to salvage his reputation from his earlier actions.Julian> Octavianus entered, changing colour continually, like a chameleon, turning now pale now red; one moment his expression was gloomy, sombre, and overcast, the next he unbent and showed all the charms of Aphrodite and the Graces. Moreover in the glances of his eyes he was fain to resemble mighty Helios, for he preferred that none who approached should be able to meet his gaze.> "Good Heavens!" exclaimed Silenus, "what a changeable monster is this! What mischief will he do us?"> "Cease trifling", said Apollo, "after I have handed him over to Zenon here, I shall transform him for you straightway to gold without alloy. Come, Zenon" he cried, "take charge of my nursling". Zenon obeyed, and thereupon, by reciting over Octavianus a few of his doctrines, in the fashion of those who mutter the incantations of Zamolxis, he made him wise and temperate.
>>15109638A good one from Suetonius which should be contrasted with the glowing review he gives for the character of Augustus after Actium.> He was for ten years a member of the triumvirate for restoring the State to order, and though he opposed his colleagues for some time and tried to prevent a proscription, yet when it was begun, he carried it through with greater severity than either of them. For while they could oftentimes be moved by personal influence and entreaties, he alone was most insistent that no one should be spared, even adding to the list his guardian Gaius Toranius, who had also been the colleague of his father Octavius in the aedileship. Julius Saturninus adds that after the proscription was over Marcus Lepidus addressed the senate in justification of the past and held out hope of leniency thereafter, since enough punishment had been inflicted; but that Augustus on the contrary declared that he had consented to end the proscription only on condition that he was allowed a free hand for the future. However, to show his regret for this inflexibility, he later honoured Titus Vinius Philopoemen with equestrian rank, because it was said that he had hidden his patron, who was on the list.
>>15109642Continued> While he was triumvir, Augustus incurred general detestation by many of his acts. For example, when he was addressing the soldiers and a throng of civilians had been admitted to the assembly, noticing that Pinarius, a Roman knight, was taking notes, he ordered that he be stabbed on the spot, thinking him an eavesdropper and a spy. Because Tedius Afer, consul elect, railed at some act of his in spiteful terms, he uttered such terrible threats that Afer committed suicide. Again, when Quintus Gallius, a praetor, held some folded tablets under his robe as he was paying his respects, Augustus, suspecting that he had a sword concealed there, did not dare to make a search on the spot for fear it should turn out to be something else; but a little later he had Gallius hustled from the tribunal by some centurions and soldiers, tortured him as if he were a slave, and though he made no confession, ordered his execution, first tearing out the man's eyes with his own hand. He himself writes, however, that Gallius made a treacherous attack on him after asking for an audience, and was haled to prison; and that after he was dismissed under sentence of banishment, he either lost his life by shipwreck or was waylaid by brigands.
>>15109638I checked and it was Cassius Dio.> In this respect, indeed, he is regarded as having equalled the long reign of Augustus, since it is maintained that Augustus would never have been loved had he lived a shorter time, nor Titus had he lived longer. For Augustus, though at the outset he showed himself rather harsh because of the wars and the factional strife, was later able, in the course of time, to achieve a brilliant reputation for his kindly deeds; Titus, on the other hand, ruled with mildness and died at the height of his glory, whereas, if he had lived a long time, it might have been shown that he owes his present fame more to good fortune than to merit.
>>15109642Not a great example because Suetonius uses antithesis as his main shtick..
>>15109263Brilliant defense of Augustus's character, right out of Tacitus . . . Oh, wait, Tacitus implied Octavian was an opportunist who used avenging his father and state security as excuses.
>>15103093https://acoup.blog/2023/05/26/collections-on-the-reign-of-cleopatra/
>>15109824>who used avenging his father and state security as excuseswhich is... bad?
>>15109900Tacitus certainly believed it was bad
>>15109824>>15109976Kys cuckstoria cuckvilis
>>15109976Tacitus was a sore loser who was butthurt at the whole principate because Domitian was mean to him once. He is schizo conspiracy tier.
>>15109990Lusting after strongmen doesn't make you strong, it makes you the guy watching from the closet.
>>15110017>*sucks Cicero's dick*
>>15110036Cicero was incredibly self serving at times, bent the rules and made huge mistakes in who he backed. For all I don't like Octavian, the conflict between Pompey and Caesar showed the republic was doomed without major overhauls that a conservative like Cicero probably was not prepared to make. So no, I don't. In fact if we were just looking at Octavian's reforms as Augustus, he did far more to stabilize the state than Cicero ever could.
>>15110057Yeah. People who lust for power are selfish regardless of their political views and I just don't see a point in taking sides and acting all morally superior about it - why not just admit that everyone involved was a jerk and that you just like some jerks better than others?
>>15110067I kind of due. I would probably watch a history that trashed Cicero and Cato just as much as I would one that trashes Octavian. None of these figures are beyond criticism. I just find everyone rushing to defend the guy who pulled the republic off life support and buried it a little weird.
>>15110017Kys cuckstoria cuckvilis
>>15110090I am not defending him against criticism but against outright distorting history to make him look like an irredeemable monster. I am not attached to any form of government in particular and the Republic was pretty pathetic at its end so nothing of value was lost.
>>15110122I don't think he distorted history. Most of the stuff he said about Caesar and Octavian is not new. People were shitting on them since they came to power.While I understand how annoying it can be when people project modern morality and norms onto the past, professional historians judge historical people in various ways all the time. Its not revisionism or out of the norm. > the Republic was pretty pathetic at its end so nothing of value was lost.I do somewhat agree with this. The system had broken down and was always pretty abusive to the people in the provinces anyway. But the Empire had problems from the beginning. Augustus built it on political expediency. it It only worked if there was a guy on the throne smart and popular enough to keep everything running.
>>15109468>was a genuinely good ideaCongrats on being a retard
>>15110258>Most of the stuff he said about Caesar and Octavian is not new.That's the point. Everything is known - there are only so many sources and there is only so much that you can get out of them. But there are always those self-proclaimed historians that are like "Let me tell you the TRUTH about X" and just spin some ludicrous yarns out of the same old shit you've heard a thousand times.
>>15110308Please elaborate on what you think was the correct course of action for them.
>>15110321not getting into a fight they can't win
>>15110321A less wimpy suicide, preferably dying at Actium. Why is the assumption that the correct course of action is to preserve ones life rather than to do the right thing?
>>15110363>>15110371Holy shit just kys retards
>>15110017So what does lusting after weak, pathetic losers like you're doing make you?
