What is it about God sacrificing himself that makes it possible for man to get to heaven?Like why does that achieve anything? I don't get it. I'm not impressed.
>>15101754That was his only son! (himself)
>>15101754Apparently snuffing a guy who didnt rob a bank makes the robber innocent
>>15101762Yes, but why does sacrificing your son (who is yourself) unlock they gates of heaven? How are these two things connected?
>>15101754>I don't get itExactly, most "christians" dont either, most christians dont know almost anything about their religion He saved humanity because he taught about everythingAbout everything that was forgottenGod, demons, sacrifice, nature of love, eternity, history, human nature and vileness, sinHe made such an impact on earth, he saved
>>15101949>He saved humanity because he taught about everythingI used to think this was the story also but it's not.He purposely got himself killed so he could become the sacrificial lamb and splatter his blood on the alter before God, which somehow saves everyone through Jewish blood magic. You also drink his blood to gain its power.
>>15101769You can find it out yourself if you study actual christianity (hundreds of papers and mountains of material about it) Theres no need to make this kind of question here when the answer is lying somewhere else perfectly at your reach If you had the ability to reason of at least a 12 year old you would know thisBut you decide to make a thread on le 4chan
>>15101962>I used to think this was the story also but it's not.>He purposely got himself killed so he could become the sacrificial lamb and splatter his blood on the alter before GodI mean it can easily (and it is) bothYou retard.
>>15101754Man is fallen, because we rejected God's law.The first covenant introduced the law, it was a guardian to the Jews, rules to be followed. By rejecting God's law the consequence is sin, death and punishment. The new covenant with Christ writes the law onto our hearts. Christ took the worst of humanity on him, they tortured and crucified him because he was good. Him dying and rising from the dead defies sin, shows the power of God. Those who believe in him, trust in God, repent and follow the law, will receive his grace and be saved.
Again its like you have low IQ>I used to think it was like this but it actually is like thisIt can be both at the very same time, neither are mutually exclusive you litle niglet
>>15101970His teachings don't save you. It's his blood sacrifice alone that does.
>>15101982Both save you you absolute idiotI mean I know youre an ignorant cunt but why are you talking out of your assMass does not save alone, it is the ordinary life an actions of a christian that save him
>>15101978You are just afraid and upset because I made you face the fact that you worship human sacrifice and Jewish blood magic.
>>15101982>>15101987I mean its 2000 year old scriptures so I KNOW why people are so confused about everythingIts like theyre retarded or something but yeah, maybe thats why he came to savePeople just dont get it and the truth gets lost among low IQIgnorance is truly the root of all evil
>>15101987No, the Bible says your good deeds are nothing but dirty rags before the Lord. It's his sacrifice alone that saves you.Faggot.
>>15101990Im upset your reasoning is so retarded, its like you have the IQ of a childEven now you cant comprehend that lol, anyways I guess youre just a pseudo-intellectual amazing atheistGood luck bro
>>15101754The original christians believed heaven was a jew kindgom on earth that jesus was going to establish when he returned. When that happened all the jews would rise from the dead. It's why resurrection is such a prominent theme in the gospel story. When jesus didn't come back to earth the cope set in and they started saying that acktually, it's a jew kingdom in the sky for dead people.
>>15101996>No, the Bible says your good deeds are nothing but dirty rags before the Lord.Bible literally encourage good deedsYou absolute giga-retarded animalGood deeds DO please God because of the impact it has in this universe
>>15102003Good luck to you too, Jew worshiper. Hope that human sacrifice works out for you.
>>15102005The concept of haven a spiritual realm of peace has always existed in many cultures
>>15102016>good deedsShut the fuck up, boaster.Ephesians 2:8-9For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
>>15102017You lost creatureReturn when you wish, God will never leave you but your actions will always have a consequence
>>15102026If you break down the whole meaning of "faith" it is to believe in a God that WANTS you to do good deedsYou absolute retard, how, how can you be so stupidWell you can be saved by a conversion/miracle but that doesnt exclude the fact that good deeds do please God and exalts your consciousness, which is what God wantsThe devil wants you to be an animal, vile and agressive, indifferent towards others
>>15102028You lost, I proved you wrong right here >>15102026Faith in his sacrifice is what saves you, not good works.
You will never get a straight, consistent answer on this because even the followers of the religion don't get it, so you end up just reading low level apologetics and "because it just is!!!"
>>15102026>Shut the fuck up.Tone the language down, when you are citing bible verses below. You discredit the faith
>>15102037I literally proved him wrong soI win I guessAlso sacrifice = selfless good deedsRetard.Last advice, read about saints
>>15102034>whole meaning of "faith" it is to believe in a God that WANTS you to do good deedsYou're going to Hell for spreading that false gospel, heretic.
>>15102034Bro as a fellow Christian you have got to chill out. The way you’re throwing out these insults makes it seem like you’re seething big time
>gets increasingly angry with each reply to anon>"I fucking win because I say so!"You can't make this shit up lmao
>>15102041see>>15101977
When Adam sinned, he offended God's honor, infinitely. This offense lost original justice for him and his descendants i.e. original sin. The consequences of this sin were death, both spiritual and physical; as well as concupiscence i.e. the tendency to sin (manifested via covetousness the chief of which in man is lust or sexual desire). The guilt of this sin is only held by our first parents, yet the punishment for it extended down the line of Adam. Mankind was sold under the power of the devil. The Law was given to reveal sin and death and their eventual overthrow by Jesus, but it could not cause one to become righteous. The only way for the offense against God's honor to be repaired was by a perfect, unblemished, and infinite satisfaction to be made on our behalf. And who could do this but God alone, who is infinite? Christ freely and perfectly gave his life up as a reparation for the sin of Adam and the sins of his descendants. He did this out of an act of love, going above and beyond his call of duty by taking on our punishment in our place namely he became sin on our behalf, he suffered, and he died, and took on the curse of the Law and became a curse for us. This act of love atoned for sin, redeemed mankind from the power of death held by the Devil and the curses of the Law, and opened up the possibility of forgivness and reconciliation with God. Jesus's one sacrifice not only merited for him eternal life (that was already striclty owed to him anyway as God in the flesh) but also his merits were so great, so perfect, and more than enough to overflow to us that his merits, stored in the treasury of merit, might be applied to us for our salvation by grace. This we receive through faith in his death. His act of sacrifice was not only perfect, but more than what was required of him, that it atones not only for those who believe in him, but for the whole world, and yet the benefits of it, the merits Christ received, are only of benefit to those who believe in him.
>>15101977Ok, but why does the process of dying as a sacrifice to God do anything? Why was that the method chosen by God? He couldn't do it another way?
>>15101754>What is it about God sacrificing himself that makes it possible for man to get to heaven?Nothing. That's why the idea of Jesus being God makes no sense. But when you go with the original story, that Jesus was a man who defeated sin, thus defeated death, it makes more sense. Man was in bondage to satan because of Adam's sin, and because of Jesus' sinless life, death could not hold him, thus cannot hold us if we follow this new path.
>>15102047Kek its true you retardIf you actually studied christianity you would knowThis is the last thing Ill say since you guys are hyper-retarded and cant put 2 + 2 togetherGod bless you, read the life of saints
Let's say I get a speeding ticket and go to court and have to pay a fine. And a guy that has a perfect clean record comes in and says, "Your honor, I would like to pay for this guy's fine and all future fines with my own life.", and kills himself by stabbing in the neck with a pen.How did his death achieve anything?
>>15102094>Ok, but why does the process of dying as a sacrifice to God do anything?.Because the consequence of sin is death and punishment in hell.Christ dying and then rising is an atonement for our sins. A way for resolution with God. He essentially took our place. Paul writes this in I think Galatians or Corinthians. If we truly believe, then the old sinful person we once were died on that cross. The fact that this event which took place thousands of years ago, we are still talking about shows that God knew what he was doing.
>>15101754>What is it about God sacrificing himself that makes it possible for man to get to heaven?Supposedly he too the collective sins of humanity and appeased himself through self immolation, though it's never explained what sins(original sin? Else?) Or why he needed to do this
>>15102131>Paul writes this in I think Galatians. Galatians 2:20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.
>>15102056Kek Im like that, I come from a very spiteful past I used to believe this world was of flesh and "rationality"God saved me though, through the teachings of a saint, and very recently. I found out he exists and all what they says about heaven, hell, demons, angels is realIts really good recently Ive found out exorcists are usually very rich in knowledge and experience, first hand knowledge God bless you my brother, God bless us allhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4Aq7WGIhzA
>>15101977>God's law.No shrimp or mixed fabric capice?Now give me my burned offerings
>>15102165>No shrimp or mixed fabric capice?You Atheists are like a broken record.There is a distinction between ceremonial laws and moral laws, in the old testament.
>>15102165>Now give me my burned offeringsI don't think so, no burned offerings for you before you restore the Kingdom of Israel and rebuild your temple :^)
>>15102178 >moral lawsUuuh let's see...you can beat your slave but only if he doesn't die k?Now back to the sacrifices....
>>15102178>There is a distinction between ceremonial laws and moral laws, in the old testament.No there isn't. That's just an invented cope to deal with how Jesus said Torah law is forever.
>>15102162I'm glad you saved your mind. But Christianity is weakness, it's for the weak minded and cuckolded. I face reality like a man. I don't love my enemy or turn the other cheek like a weak bitch.
>>15102205I "faced reality like a man"I was one of the most manliest, GROUNDED, rational person to existThen I discovered God is real and that he is a caring God with a consciousness you cant comprehend you, he loves you more than a man can understandTrust me I was a giga-atheist like you only respecting christianity because well it helped the poor and weak to believe in somethingTurns out the "simple" people are closer to the truth than most "intellectuals"The ironyI will only give you an advice, give God a chance, I already know he exists and Christ is our true king but for an atheist who doesnt understand anything like yourselfJust try, come home
>>15101754In the Old Testament, they slaughtered lambs to convene with God- the idea being you 'put' your sins into the lamb, and when you slaughter the lamb, the lamb gets sent to hell instead of you (if you don't get it, don't worry, nobody does).Easentially they say the same thing happened, but Jesus was God himself, so it was some kind of huge lamb sacrifice (aka Lamb of God) and so it was such a huge sacrifice that we're all clear forever and ever and that we can only be a part of this cool awesome sacrifice if we really believe hard enough and don't do anything too bad and do good deeds (depending on which church you attend) or simply believe really hard (depending on which church you attend)
>>15102205>>15102221Trust me I used to believe "KILL EVERY PERSON WHOM I CONSIDER INFERIOR" a thing Like low intellect less rational people had not any rights to exist in my mindMuch like what the freemasons who rule society thinkGod I was so fucking stupid, and I used to think like that because I thought this world was only flesh and "rationality"I was ignorant like many
>>15102230>God I was so fucking stupid, and I used to think like that because I thought this world was only flesh and "rationality"And if there was the chance God existed he was a cold GodAnd that "rules of nature" the strong above the weak was all we hadBut no, we dont understand our history and why things are like they are right nowEden was real, everything they said was real, we just dont understandGod didnt create death nor illness
>>15102221>he is a caring God with a consciousness you cant comprehend you, he loves you more than a man can understandNah dude, he lets babies die of brain cancer every day. 5 million children die every year around the world from diarrhea. Horrific things happen every day, God doesn't care, he doesn't help anyone, he doesn't answer prayers, he doesn't do shit. That's because there is only Nature, and it is cruel and unforgiving. It doesn't have consciousness or awareness, it's just physics and chemical reactions, and natural selection.
>>15102241>Nah dude, he lets babies die of brain cancer every dayYou simply dont understand our pastThe present>babys with cancer and sheeitcomes from the past, "sin" transmutes human genes, sin is just a word for fucking yourself and others You just dont understand, sorry
>>15102240>God didnt create death nor illnessDo you people not read your books?>I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.Isaiah 45:7
>>15102255>You just dont understandYou're just uneducated and scientifically illiterate. You don't understand reality around you. You probably think the earth is 6,000 years old and Noah's Ark really happened.
Saints do teach about the truth and God, they have the grace, direct knowledge from heaven like JesusLike everyone really but they have it developed because of their nature and the work of their ancestorsThe devil wont allow a "Saint" to exist though
>>15102263I used to believe in everything you believe lolAbout le big bang and le evolution, really I thought that REALLY was fucking itREALLY, exactly like you probably moreNow I believe in creationism, againYou just dont understand, sorry>>15102262>Do you people not read your books?Literally the scriptures say the first thing demons did after their revelion was create deathTime became mans enemyBible says God made Adam and Eve immortalOld testament is a bit sussy though, its ancient scriptures even older than 2000 years
>>15102289You don't "believe" in those things, you're supposed to study the science behind it so you can understand how it works and can verify it to yourself.You're just a fucking retard.
>>15102289>Literally the scriptures say the first thing demons did after their revelion was create deathWhere?>Old testament is a bit sussy though, its ancient scriptures even older than 2000 years.So are you saying that verse is false?
>>15102178>There is a distinction between ceremonial laws and moral laws, in the old testament Where in Bible is this distinction explained?
What I don't get, is why we have to believe it's true, in order for it to save us
>>15102307Not saying its false but its misinterpreted, lostLike analogy thing taken to the literal and viceversa>Where?There was this erudite theologist explaining the scriptures about creation Trying to find it but you would help me if you try finding that material tooAlso God being above death doesnt mean he created it lol
>>15102306>You don't "believe" in those things, you're supposed to study the science behind it so you can understand how it works and can verify it to yourself.Youre so mentally retarded thoughYou believe in those things because "scientists" studied themThen they explained it to you and me, then we believed itYoure so mentally retarded its unreal Its like I have to be fucking gigaspecific with you so you understand what Im trying to say>HURR DURR WE JUST DONT BELIEV IN THOSE THINGSYes I know you fucking retard, I meant I believed the teachings or "le studied le science"Youre so stupid its unreal
>>15102363I was literally a fucking intellect supremacist, always been and I still amRationality and intellect comes from God, stupidity comes from wretchedness Creationism is real
None of you are getting it.God ordained that Jesus would be the sacrifice for mankind’s sins before the world began. It’s not a case of “oops, sin came into the world so now God was forced to think of a method to redeem humanity”.No; instead, God has planned that humanity would sin, and had planned that His Son would be the sacrifice to save His elect. By this, He shows His mercy to the elect, and His wrath to the reprobate >who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,2 Timothy 1:9
>>15102363>Then they explained it to you and me, then we believed itYou were just a popsci believing retard with no real education.Keep believing Noah's Ark, faggot.
>>15102382Why God wait 4000 years before healing the curse of death?
>>15102363I guarantee you this, God is not going to answer your prayers, and you will not be going to heaven after you die. He doesn't exist. You're not even a real Christian, look at how you talk. Scumbag.
>>15102435Jesus’ sacrifice covered the sins of the elect throughout all time (past present future)
>>15102444Dumb
>>15102507It’s actually amazing
>>15102444refuted by post-structuralism
>>15102444Why God not wait 6000 years before healing the curse of death?
There’s more to it than that. It’s a combination of these:1. His teachings were perfect, his life was perfect, and his death is part of his perfect moral message. His death proved once and for all the depravity of the rich (Sadducees), the academics (Pharisees and scribes), the politicians (Pilate), and general human nature — that when God comes to earth we actually kill him. He humbled himself so that we would be humbled. He taught us that the perfect man should die for the truth. He died so that we could live in truth. Additionally, his ability to submit to the crucifixion out of love is a moral perfection, because —2. He was the anointed savior of all the teachings of Israel, who was prophesied to die for sins. Jesus is the finality of the Ancient Judaism — a religion much different than modern Judaism by the way. This is why the New Testament reads like a new and final prophecy, whereas the Jews have just been scribbling notes since 200BC. Christianity is a continuation of the oldest western religion, with elements of all other western religions. Lastly,3. It’s an eternal testament of human sin. When we look at Christ, we can see ourselves in two ways: either crucifying or being crucified. We look at the Cross and see the punishment of sin, plus we see the mercy of truth of God
>Like why does that achieve anything? Depends on who you're asking, if you're the leader of the cult, it can do wonders for you
>>15101754Funny that the rise of Christianity coincided with the fall of Rome.
>>15103705Not really. Rome was already said to be in decline in the second century. Christians didn’t make up 10% of the Roman Empire population until 300AD. If Roman Paganism was so brilliant, you’ll need to explain how their religion died out to someone who was literally crucified under Pilate. Talk about embarrassing — where were your gods?
>>15101754Wait, Jesus was a sacrifice?
>>15101754Its just the primitive Idea that disobeying God demands a blood sacrifice. In Early Christian thinking the sacrifice of Jesus made the need to constantly kill animals for satisfy God obsolete. It makes no sense to most people today because we don't see animal sacrifices as anything more than the primitive ritual that it is.
The same way Adam gave original sin to all mankind. God the Son joined joined to the human nature that is common to us, and overcame death in his resurrection and ascension into heaven. He only needed to die so that he could alter the shared universal human nature by this.
>>15102026>muh filthy ragsYour religion is worthless:James 1:26-27If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not bridle his tongue, he deceives his heart and his religion is worthless. PURE AND UNDEFILED IN GODS EYES to take care of poor people:>27Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
>>15105059 >Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!John 1:29
>>15102178>He thinks christians can eat pork and shrimpYou probably celebrate pagan holidays like christmas also.
>>15102081Only post worth considering in this whole thread.
>>15101754Post nut clarity after having killed God's son, Christians had to justify their fuck up some how
>>15101754Given the phrasing of your post, I doubt you're asking in sincerity, but I'll humor you.Man committed Original Sin, which is a crime against God. Since Yahweh is a God of justice, He demands that the perpetrators of crimes be punished for their actions. Since the punishment for sin is death, that means somebody has to die to pay for the crime. However since God is a God of mercy and love as well, He does not immediately evaporate humanity from existence, but, since He is ontologically incapable of saying anything that isn't true or going back on His word, He condemns them two-fold: 1. they must eventually grow old and die, 2. every sin must be paid with the death of a living thing, which compasses animal sacrifice; the animal dies so that man does not have to.Now the problem is that the lifeblood of the animal only really satisfies the justice of a single crime committed by a single person, and there are lots and lots of people committing lots and lots of sin, so the only way man can get out of this vicious cycle of debt-sacrifice is to pay a sum that can equivocate the blood-debt of every single human being ever to exist in the past and those yet to exist in the future, which requires an infinite resource. The only being who has an infinite amount of grace with which to pay that sin-debt in perpetuity is God Himself, thus God the Son must incarnate as a human, and countenance a single human sacrifice; himself, to himself. Does that satisfy the philosophical basis for your question?
>>15107509>Since the punishment for sin is death, that means somebody has to die to pay for the crime.Adam and Eve died for their crime>every sin must be paid with the death of a living thing, which compasses animal sacrifice; the animal dies so that man does not have to.People still died after sacrificing animals. People who weren't Jews never sacrificed animals and lived just as long. Sacrificing an animal never extended anyone's life.>so the only way man can get out of this vicious cycle of debt-sacrifice is to pay a sum that can equivocate the blood-debt of every single human being ever to existWhy did God set up this incredibly retarded "blood debt" sacrifice system again?
>>15101754A God empathizing with human nature. He suffered as we suffer.
>>15107548Only for like half a day, then got turned back into a perfect immortal that lives in eternal bliss in heaven.
>>15107548God wouldn't need to do that though to empathaise with us
>>15101964You are literally telling OP to read hundreds of papers and mountains of material. Why on earth should someone be willing to devote that much time to this nonsense?
>>15107537I can see you aren't taking this discussion seriously and never had any intent to do so.Many such cases.
>>15101754Jews were literally obsessed with the lamb thing, sacrifice and shit. They still are, unfortunately for us all.
>>15107554He resurrected. He's the first of the resurrected. Until that point, through sin existed a kind of spiritual death that he had the power to overcome and thus decided heceforth man shall not die (this spiritual death). He will resurrect us, that was the whole idea of the sacrifice.The judgement is another different matter, and the good deeds are for him to separate the ones who are ready from the ones that still are not. Like a book each of the thoughts you have thought will be measured used for the final decision.>>15107558He wouldn't need to do that but he did. This is not a matter of utilitarianism, it's a matter of will.
>>15107509Well intentioned but flawed explanation. The blood of bulls and goats do not actually atone for sin (Heb 10:4), since the Law does not justify, the righteousness of a lamb cannot be transferred to a person since the lamb is an animal, it has no righteousness, it cannot satisfy God's justice, let alone release us from the debt incurred on us by mortal sin. Rather, the sacrifices served two purposes: 1. To reveal sin and its consequences to the world (Rom 3:19-20, Rom 5:20) and 2. To foreshadow the overthrow of sin and death by Jesus Christ (Heb 10:1). It was not the works of the Law that made someone righteous, rather it was the faith of the person in God and his promises that made a person righteous before God (i.e. Abraham was justified by faith). Of course this did not negate the necessity for those who received the Law to have works as faith alone does not justify (Jam 2:24), though this is a different discussion. In the Old Testament atonement was possible without the need for sacrifice (Lev 5:1-13, Num 31:50), and yet a covenant was always inaugurated through blood which these variant methods of atonement were done in (Exo 24:8), and in fact blood atonement was distinct because only blood could atone for the soul (Lev 17:11).
>>15101754 The so called "Christians" of today (LARPers, really) misunderstood the Sacred Texts. What Jesus did was serve as example to us all. Everybody has to sacrifice.
>>15102152>It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me.Very creepy. Cult shit. He is outright saying his religion has replaced his authentic identity.
If you read the Books of Acts, it is very clear that they considered Jesus' teachings the important part and the resurrection was regarded as proof of divinity.That's why you will never get a satisfactory answer to this. The crucifixion has symbolic significance, but you will never find an explanation for the big animal sacrifice balance sheet in space because it's overly-literal nonsense made up by stupid people.
>>15107609This is a modern explanation, by the way. This is not what Christians throughout history actually thought.
>>15107649Quite the contrary, actually. This is more or less the standard western Christian conception of atonement, having naturally developed out of the traditional ransom theory, standing alongside the recapitulatory stance that eastern Christendom tends to emphasize. Neither are mutually exclusive, they can't since they both flowed out of the original atonement theory of the Church, just with different emphases on two key aspects of the cross.
>>15107608>He wouldn't need to do that but he did. This is not a matter of utilitarianism, it's a matter of will.Then what meaning does it have? It's a superfluous action
>>15107701None. Why should it have meaning? The wind blows, the sun shines. God wills. We die and by his will resurrect.
>>15107674Atonement does not historically involve the idea that sacrifice just shows us how bad sin is, no.
>>15107713>Why should it have meaningI feel this is a controvertial statemnt for a christian to make
>>15107609I was trying to conceptualize it for laymen. Would you say it's more accurate to describe the sacrifices as a sort of "bail bond"? Letting you stay out of jail and deferring judgment so that God doesn't blast you into atoms instantly for having the effrontery to sin, which is otherwise what you'd deserve for transgressing?
>>15107701It's an act of love, of course it's superfluous, that's the whole point of love in the first place, it's not a cold-blooded zero-sum business transaction with an ulterior motive of gain behind it, there is nothing we have that God needs or can gain advantage thereby
>>15107788No.
>>15107896U
>>15107749And I didn't say that. Read the post again.
>>15107806>It's an act of love,Doing some weird esoteric blood ritual is not an act of love
>>15108951Also why can't the act of love be forgiveness by itself? Why insert the sacrifice?
>>15108961Because God is love, agape. Agape is sacrificial love, willing the absolute best for others, so it is in the very nature of God to do this (No greater love has anyone than this, that he lay down his life for his friends John 15:13). Could God have forgiven sin without the need for sacrifice. Perhaps, but not only is God a God of justice, but also one of love (in fact these are identical in God by divine simplicity):>For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a righteous person [as aquitted in a court]—though perhaps for a [morally] good person someone might actually dare to die.>But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us.Much more surely, therefore, since we have now been justified by his blood, will we be saved through him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more surely, having been reconciled, will we be saved by his life.Romans 5:8-11
>>15109004*Romans 5:6-11
>>15109004 But christ sacrifice is an egotistic act from yhwh to placate himself, he wanted blood, it wasn't for us.
>>15109004>No greater love has anyone than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.but god created the systen that made it necessary in the first place.It's as if you were tied on the road,a car about to hit you and the guy that tied you pushes you away and is hit instead.
>>15109047No God just is this. He is a necessary being, his essence just is his existence.
>>15109052This sounds like a mindless prime mover with no controll over its actions
>>15109022>it wasn't for us.It was for the elect
>>15109081No it was for yhwh, that was the only way he could be placated
>>15109097Makes no sense. It was a loving gift for the elect and was also done to glorify God. If God just wanted to be "placated" then He could instantly cast every person into hell.
>>15109126How is a guy dying on a post a gift?I though the whole point was to atone for sin, and the god decides that
>>15109134The entire point of Jesus' sacrifice is that it was a gift for the elect. In doing that, God showed His mercy to those who He would save.>For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 6:23
>>15109189God will save all.
>>15109219He will save all of the elect, but not all of mankind.>I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.John 17:9>But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”Matthew 8:12>Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.Matthew 25:41>They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might2 Thessalonians 1:9
>>15109424God's love is boundless, Universal. He cares for his children, all of them. God will save all. The rest will find the way. None shall be left behind.
>>15109610This completely disagrees with Scripture, of course. It is heretical to believe such a thing.
>>15109634How do you explain away all the Christians who disagrees with you?
>>15109731Calvinists use circular reasoning to say they are not true Christians. Of course other Christians say Calvinists are not Christians. Christians tend to accuse other Christians who disagree with of not actually being Christians.
>>15109731By the Word of God. Anyway, universalism is a minority view among Christians and is widely understood to be an absolute heresy
>>15109776Calvinism is a minority view among Christians and is widely understood to be an absolute heresy (except I'm not lying, it REALLY is an heresy)
