What are the most overrated and underrated campaigns/battles of WW2?
>>14773739>overratedBattle of El-Alamein>underratedOperation TorchThe North African campaign could, and would, have continued if Rommel didn't have to worry about Americans on his western flank, El-Alamein wasn't at all as decisive as Anglos like to think.
>overratedEverything the French Resistance ever did>underratedThe Finns kicking the Germans out after the Russians left
>>14773739>overratedBattle of the Bulge / Ardennes OffensiveThe war was already lost for Germany at that point, it was a plan borne out of desperation.>underratedEvacuation at DunkirkCould have changed the tide of the war if the Germans had pressed on.
>overrated Battle of BritainEven if the RAF hadn't defeated the Luftwaffe, Sealion was impossible. >underrated August Storm was the most magnificent military operation since Napoleon's Six Days and pop culture pretends it was Stalin beating up an already defeated Japan for propaganda. Nothing further from the truth.
>Battle of the CaribbeanBarely anybody talks or even knows about this one. Around a dozen long-range German and Italian submarines were able to inflict considerable damage with targeted attacks on vessels carrying cargo from two critical industries: bauxite produced in the Guianas and petroleum refining in the Dutch Antilles and Trinidad. Both were vital sources of these important materials for the US and UK, especially bauxite, which the US was heavily dependent on for aluminum production. So many ore carriers and tankers were getting sunk that the American brass were starting to get nervous:>The U-boats in the Caribbean made a severe dent in the annual shipments of one million tons of bauxite to ALCOA and ALCAN in the United States and Canada in 1942–43. US Army Chief of Staff George C. Marshall in May 1942 sent Admiral Ernest J. King his assessment of the situation: the [U-boats] had destroyed 22 per cent of the Allied bauxite fleet, one out of every four Army ships sent to reinforce the Caribbean theater, and 3.5 per cent of Allied tanker tonnage per month. “Our entire war effort,” he warned the Commander in Chief US Fleet, was now “threatened.” Over the first six months, the German raiders dispatched 965,000 tons of Allied shipping in the Caribbean, of which an alarming 57 per cent were tankers. King at times suspended sailings into the area. The US Navy calculated that the sinking of three average ships was equivalent to the damage inflicted by 3,000 successful Luftwaffe bombing sorties.During this critical shortage of bauxite and aluminum, US aircraft production was projected to only reach 48,000 in 1942 instead of the planned 60,000. It's entirely possible that the mere handful of Axis submarines that operated in the Caribbean that year prevented as many as 12,000 aircraft from rolling out of American factories.
>>14773739For underrated I would definitely go with the Roslavl–Novozybkov offensive. The Soviets tried to attack Heeresgruppe Mitte after a good chunk of it went south to support the Kiev operation. The offensive went very badly and the Bryansk Front lost about 50% of its strength and was still trying to reconstitute itself when the Germans launched Typhoon.It is absolutely staggering how many people debate the whole "Was it a good idea to close the Kiev pocket" without having any idea about this at all, or that the defenses on the direct route to Moscow were actually stronger in September than they were in November.
>>14773942>The Finns kicking the Germans out after the Russians leftkek the krauts were really butthurt about this one
>>14774144>it was Stalin beating up an already defeated Japan for propagandaIt pretty much was, only tankies think the Soviets were the ones who beat Japan
>>14774173https://www.visitflorida.com/travel-ideas/articles/arts-history-florida-world-war-ii-u-boat/U boat captains couldn’t believe Florida’s coastal cities were all lit up as a backdrop when they started sinking American ships.
Overrated:>1. D-dayObviously>2. Battle of the BulgeIt was already over by that point>3. Evacuation at DunkirkHow many more books can bongs write about how they ran away?>4. Battle of BritainImportant yes, but not as important as Brits try and make it out to be>5. Second Battle of El-AlameinWasn't the turning point that Anglos try to make it out to be, the most interesting part is how hard the Italians fought in it, only to get shat on afterwards>6. Battle of MidwayWasn't even the turning point in the Pacific, because that had already happened>7. Battle of Iwo JimaDidn't even have to happen in the first place>8. Kokoda Track campaignWas nearly lost, only saved thanks to the Battle of the Coral Sea. Is Australia's 'Gallipoli' of WW2 and created the myth of the 'Chocos' fighting alone (even though they weren't). Also started a trend by Australia historians to call everything a ''''''''''campaign'''''''''' even went it was clearly a battle, this was done to try and make their efforts look just as important as America's.>9. Siege of TobrukGot all the glory during the North African campaign of mid-late 1941, even though the battles outside of Tobruk were just as important.>10. Burma campaignWith the way how Brits tell the story, yes. At the end of the day, that pedo William Slim went up against disease ridden starving japs and yet with how Brits tell the story, you would think it was the turning point in the Pacific war.
>>14775139Underrated:>1. Battle of Port Moresby (first 44 days)The 75 Squadron RAAF 44 day air war above Port Moresby in early 1942 before the land war started>2. Operation BrevityBarely anything has been written about it>3. Operation BattleaxeAlso barely anything has been written about it>4. Operation CrusaderOne of the most insane battles that gets sidelined by the less interesting Second battle of El-Alamein5. First Battle of El-AlameinCompared to the second battle barely anything has been written about it>6. Battle of Milne BayJapan's first land victory carried out by Aussies, yet despite all this it's only now that my country (Aus) is starting to give it any attention. It has always been overlooked by the more talked about Kokoda >7. French West African campaignNot enough written about it>8. East African campaignAlso not enough written about it>9. Syria–Lebanon campaignThe Australian 7th Division was called "the silent seventh" for a reason>10. The Battle of France (excluding Dunkirk)Hasn't been anything written about the French experience during the battle in years
>>14773739>OverratedThe invasion of Italy>UnderratedThe April War and everything that came after
>>14775192This is the 1st time I heard Papua New Guinea mentioned here :-)
>>14775352Yeah /his/ doesn’t really care all too much for the Pacific theatre.The average /his/fags view on the Pacific war is:>japs lost the war at pearl harbour >putting the japs in prison was literally the holocaust and america is like le hitler >the only battle of any importance was midway>nothing else happened after it until the nukes>and macarthur was apparently a genius
>>14775596For me it's the Pacific submarine campaign. I've had some passing interest in Pacific War naval history since my grandfather was a chief warrant officer on an Iowa-class battleship during the war, but Silent Hunter 4 is what really got me into it initially. Now I'm reading books like Blair's Silent Victory and "Japan's Economy in War and Reconstruction" for the economic impact of the complete annihilation of Japanese shipping, making it possibly the most devastating blockade in history. It's quite overlooked by laymen and pop history fans, but most academic literature I've read puts it as one of the most important factors in Japan's defeat, if not the most important, including the Japanese leaders themselves who were interviewed by the US Strategic Bombing Survey after the war. Plus, I can empathize with the submarine skippers, even if it's nowhere near the real thing, on the torpedo issues. If I get mildly annoyed by duds in SH4, I can't even imagine how demoralizing it would be for all your torpedoes to fail and having it blamed on you instead of faulty equipment. The torpedo scandal is one of the most maddening cases of incompetence and neglect in naval history.I'm also trying to get into the war in China but there's very little English literature on the topic. The Battle for China: essays on the military history of the Second Sino-Japanese War is the best single volume I've come across so far, but I wish they'd cover economic and social issues a bit more than just mostly battles and campaigns.
I just want people to talk about the siege of Lille more often, because we fought well. I think it's underrated
>>14775754Wow your grandfather must’ve been through a lot during the war.That’s true, unfortunately there hasn’t been enough written about the Chinese front.
>>14775139>>14775192fuck off, aussies rule ww2
>>14776426I wasn’t talking shit, I’m an Aussie myself.Just telling the truth
>>14773739Where Spaniard War or war in Ethiopia?
Khalkin Gol is underrated because it was a test for deep operations on the Soviet side.
>>14776932The East Africa campaign was Ethiopia
>>14775805They sure did and the krauts were truly based for giving them the honours of war
>>14773739This meme sucks these are all so fucking generic
The New Guinea campaign is absolutely fascinating. Parts of it were basically just Aussies and Japs who had never set foot in the jungle before being led around by tribal natives through the think jungle and accidentally running into each other in the middle of nowhere
>>14780747Craziest thing is that over 90% of Japanese casualties were caused by starvation and disease. That’s basically medieval warfare tier.
>>14774144Is there a good YouTube kino about august storm?
Somewhat related but I'm currently reading a book on Nanking. I know it's unpopular to hate the Japs on 4chan because everyone is a weeb but what the fuck man. Japanese are fucked. Even reading about them in the Pacific is just insane. In my opinion I think the Japs were a lot scarier/more evil than the Germans. It makes me think of that moral alignment meme. Germans would be lawful evil while the Japanese would be chaotic evil.
>>14781323I read Rape of Nanking this year and I'm reading about Unit 731 now. My opinion of Japan became seriously degraded after reading about their wartime conduct. I regard them as being savage people, but I really believe that if I hate them, then I would only become like them. They treated the Chinese that way because they hated the Chinese, we should not become like them and be hateful. I do agree with you that the Imperial Japanese forces were worse than the Nazis.
>>14781335You make a good point. I try not to be hateful but still. I'm Australian so we were fighting the Japanese a lot in the Pacific. I shudder to think of what horrible things may have happened to them.
>>14781353You are my brother country. Our countrymen fought together during WWII and your nation sent many men to their deaths during the Korean war. I am happy about that, that our countries share a blood bond. I cannot forget about these things.
>>14780893>Pacific War shouldn’t happenEmpire of Japan rethinking over northern conquest against Soviet
>>14781323>lawful evil >chaotic evilReddit that way.
>>14775754Not a Chinese theater expert, but I really like Tuchman's "Stilwell and the American Experience in China". It's more about China and less about Stilwell than you might expect.
>>14781323>>14781335>>14781353>I'm turning Japanese I'm turning JapaneseOh stop the drama. If you really want to avoid falling into the pit of racial hatred, stop indulging the categorically bigoted idea that the wartime conduct of Japanese up to a hundred years ago means they are a morally tainted race past, present and future. Hating them so much you'd be afraid to be anything like them is just drawing the same nasty noxious water from the same nasty, noxious well.No willpower is needed here, just don't believe dumb ideas about human morality or social groups. I'm not a weeb, by the way, or a Jap apologist by a long shot. I just don't know how anybody who gives a shit about the dangers of racial hatred would actually judge today's ordinary Japanese based on Nanking or anything like that. Like what's your issue with hate, then, if races and nations can actually be just inherently rotten.The politics and values of modern Japan indicate a society that has (through either trauma, reflection, foreign intercession or all the above) firmly rejected militarism and past Japanese sins. Even if bullshit "face-saving" politics sometimes obscures a full accounting of exactly what the country has rejected, I think actions speak louder than whatever silence their gay pride seems to demand
>>14773944They made a blockbuster movie about Dunkirk like 5 years ago
>>14782245It can still be underrated. Contrary to all the seething bonghate the film elicited in places like this, only chip-shouldered fucktards saw that thing and felt the message was "we did it lads we won the war! and all by our selves"it wasn't a tropey war movie in that way. Frankly it was more of a disaster movie set in a war
>>14782312Go and search up Dunkirk books, you’ll see just how many have been written in just the past 20 years alone.The evacuation is not underrated at all, you’re literally the only person who thinks this. Now go and search up something truly underrated like the First Battle of El-Alamein and see how little has been written about it.
>>14774223Go home glantzfag, you’re a nu-soi Cuck.
>>14773739I was going to say that the leyte battles and samar in particular should go right to the top as hilariously overwanked but then I realized that I may have a slightly different perspective to the normies
>>14782312The Dunkirk movie was a bit of a shocking opposition to Hollywood standard formula of films.As most people here know, Hollywood loves insert racial diversity into historic movies where there shouldnt be any diversity. I dont think there is a single American ww2 movie that is entirely white anymore. It will always feature an intermixed squad of hispanics, blacks and whites.But Dunkirk was just about 100 percent white, which ironically is not accurate. Britain had millions of indians in its armed forces and the odds of not seeing a single one crewing of those ships would have been pretty exceptional.
>>14783574>implying Anglos would have let Pajeets on their ships
>>14783582you're right, they stink too bad to bottom and their dicks are too small to top, they'd never make in the royal navy
>>14775139You didnt mention Stalingrad, which is usually attributed as "decisive" when it was more of a reality check of the current situation.>9. Siege of TobrukThe funny part about Tobruk was that it was barely even used by the Axis when they finally captured it because it was within range of British naval and airforce, no merchant ship wanted to make the trip, and the port capacity was too small to make any difference.The North African campaign as a whole was just a massive clusterfuck for the Axis. Probably the most pointless offensive of the war since it was a reckless drain on resources, no clear objective, and fighting on unfavorable terms.>3. Evacuation at DunkirkThis one is actually more important that its credited to be. There was a real chance of Churchill being forced by parlament to begin peace talks with Germany if Dunkirk failed.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1940_British_war_cabinet_crisis>4. Battle of BritainAgreed, the entire offensive was reckless and moronic and relied on assumptions of impossible results.>8. East African campaignIt was over before it really truly began. Italian army attacks the British garrison,British garrison withdrawsItalian army sits on its captured ground.Britain returns with a larger forceItalian army surrender.The end.
>>14783304Normies generally don’t care about naval history, compared to land wars
>>14784290naval warfare is so romantic though
>mfw the dodecanese campaign
>>14773944>Could have changed the tide of the war if the Germans had pressed on.pressed on to what?
>>14784388You see, if the Germans ignored the retreating French forces, and pushed their operationally depleted panzer formations into the swamp without infantry support, then they would have wiped out the BEF and forced Britain to surrender and girls wouldn't find me repulsive! If you disagree you're a jew! An Hebrew JEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW! God I wished Hitler won and would slap me on the back for apping to ridiculous thoughts of German victory that I don't understand how retarded they are.
>>14775596>putting the japs in prison was literally the holocaust and america is like le hitlerit was a totally unnecessary racist policy, a violation of American ideals, and a cowardly abrogation of responsibility by the supreme court who rubber stamped it by saying "well the military said it's necessary to have concentration camps, so that's good enough to pass strict scrutiny because we're at war" even though the Brits had processed tens of thousands German resident aliens in mere months to determine which were loyal enemies and which were potential saboteurs. The whole policy was nonsense, because there was no credible threat.
>>14775754If you ever get the chance to visit, at Pearl Harbor they have a Submarine from the pacific campaign set up as a museum. It has an excellent audio tour with interviews from the captain, officers and crew, explaining what it was like to fight the war. Very interesting and harrowing stuff. That particular boat was lucky, and survived a number of close calls, but they talked about how 25% of the subs were destroyed, with all hands lost at sea, which was the worst fatality rate of any job in the US military in ww2. The submarine service was entirely voluntary, and was sold to the sailors that it was dangerous but this was the place to be if you wanted to really do some damage to the japs. Most of the crews were people who had been at Pearl Harbor, or knew people who had been killed there.
>>14775754Here's my recommended reading on the economic and social issues of the Sino-Japanese War1. Timothy Brook, Collaboration: Japanese Agents and Local Elites in Wartime China. (2005) An in depth study of the controversial phenomenon of collaboration at the ground level.2. Parks Coble, Chinese Capitalists in Japan's New Order: The Occupied Lower Yangzi 1937-1945. (2003) This significant study discusses the range of reactions of the Chinese Bourgeoisie to Japanese control of the lower Yangzi region.3. Paul Cohen, Speaking to History: The Story of King Goujian in 20th Century China. (2008) This is a really strange and interesting one, during the sino-japanese war many chinese wrote about a connection between their present disasters and that of the 5th century BC King Goujian, a figure that is essentially unknown to foreigners, even those who have studied China. Cohen calls this a phenomenon of "insider cultural knowledge". I felt like I was really getting down the iceberg reading this.4. Joshua Fogel, The Nanjing Massacre in History and Historiography. (2000) Essays in this book look at what happened in Nanjing in late 1937-early 1938, how Chinese and Japanese historians see it, and the interpretive challenges posed by the event.5. Theodore White and Annalee Jacoby, Thunder Out of China (1946) This creates a very vivid picture of wartime China, and well deserves its reputation as a classic.
>>14773739Although it isn't even remotely related to WW2 since it was independently its own war, the Ecuador-Peruvian War of 1941 should be all the way at the bottom. It was just some south American border conflict that wasn't even reported in the newspapers till two weeks later after Ecuadors defeat.
>>14773739The most overrated battle of World War II was the Normandy Campaign, because of its popularity among the masses. The most underrated battle of World War II was the Battle of Khalkhin Gol, because of its obscurity in the West.