Did the Germans under Hitler actually want to colonise a massive amount of land in the east?
>>14521593Define massive. If you mean replacing the entire native population between Germany and the Urals with Germans then no. German colonization was to be concentrated into three 'marks' (Crimea-Kherson, Memel-Narew, and Ingermanland) outside of the immediate Reich as well as in thirty-six settlement bases all situated behind the Leningrad-Bryansk-Crimea Line. All in all, around 5.5 million people (Reichsdeutsche, Volksdeutsche, Germanics, and Germanizable natives) settled across a period of twenty-five years in five Five Year Plans according to the most recent and detailed iteration of Generalplan Ost.
>>14521665>implying that amount of land (pictured in OP) is not massive
>>14521593Yes, Hitler states in Mein Kampf that he wants to instill a pioneer spirit in the German people to colonize the "Lebensraum im Osten", very much in homage to the Manifest Destiny doctrine.
>>14521665But is there any proof? I see the idea denied constantly on /pol/ and other such places. Is it just cope? (especially since such denial beliefs are normally propagated by slav Nazis)
>>14521684It is most certainly massive and should the Germans have reached the A-A Line as was the objective of Barbarossa then they territory they controlled would be even more massive. However OP's question, in the way I interpreted it, seemed to be predicated on the idea that the entire expanse of that territory was to be colonized which simply wasn't going to be the case as I pointed out in my post. Comparatively speaking, the areas marked for German colonization were indeed rather small when compared to the overall expanse of territory that the Greater Reich presided over as you pointed out. >>14521716You are aware that you download and read the Generalplan Ost for yourself yes? What I am saying is nothing more than what was actually written by the German planners themselves.
>>14521665Fun part is they could do that today if they wanted most of east euro rural regions are underpopulated, any german with some kash could just buy up land and go wolksdoiching
>>14521809Yes well, the same factors that would have worked against the Nazi government's attempts to settle Germans in the east would still apply today, perhaps even more so. That being, people don't want to become farmers in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by hostile populations with few economic prospects. Even in Hitler's time, despite Blood and Soil propaganda and the idealization of rural, farming life, people were still moving to the larger cities in droves. To actually find the 3.5 million Germans deemed necessary to fulfill the quotas set by the plan who would be willing to move from Hamburg or the Ruhr to the Crimea would be rather difficult then, imagine how difficult it would be now. The period of Ostsiedlung and drang nach osten has come to an end.
>>14521802>You are aware that you download and read the Generalplan Ost for yourself yes?I didn't think there was one single 'plan' document
>>14521854Thing is nazis didnt realy have a good record of pulling off theyr 'generalplans'Theyr MO seemed to be launching a megalomaniacal project, complicating it to the point even the buerocracy didnt know wtf theyre supposed to be beurocratizing, then kicking and hamfisting and outsourcing slavic manpower trough it till they run out of resources
>>14521880You would be correct. There are in fact six versions of Generalplan Ost. The one I am describing is the fourth and most detailed surviving iteration by Dr Konrad Meyer. I'll provide a link: https://www.1000dokumente.de/index.html?c=dokument_de&dokument=0138_gpo&object=pdf&st=&l=deRun this pdf through an online translator (I use Deepl) and, bar some hard to decipher numbers that are a result of the original PDF itself, you will have an excellent translation.
>>14521904Well I'm not exactly sure what you mean by other 'generalplans' but I can agree that bureaucratic confusion was endemic to the regime although there were plans to fix this after the war should they have won.
>>14521946Funny, cause that whole tendency to clusterfuck things is a major part of why they lost
>>14521593Suspiciously the actual plans have never been found> Nearly all the wartime documentation on Generalplan Ost was deliberately destroyed shortly before Germany's defeat in May 1945, and the full proposal has never been foundHowever we do actually have a real plan set out and initiated by Germany during the war that goes against the "germans wanted to genocide all slavs" narrative. Germany initiated a program to immigrate all germans living in eastern europe back towards parts of eastern germany. Hitler referred to this newly acquired land (old german land) as the new "breadbasket" for Germany and this was the real lebensraum plan. To build the land up agriculture with German communities who were outside the Reich and make Germany self-sufficient.
>>14522289https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing_of_Zamojszczyzna_by_Nazi_GermanyThey literally started doing this during the war. These territories weren't annexed to the Reich and remained part of the General Government.
>>14521593Germans didn't really care to uproot their lives and move to bumfuck Belarus somewhere. That's why Hitler had to coax millions of ethnic Germans from SE Europe to colonize the conquered lands. It backfired hilariously when those ethnic Germans were expelled and all of them went to Germany, not Hungary or Romania or wherever they actually came from.
>>14522289>random picture >no date or anything I don't know if this is ignorance or deliberate dishonesty.
>>14521854This would most likely not be tha case actually. Before WWI there were already new farming settlements being made in largely the areas the lost (mostly Danzig corridor I believe). The National Socialists set this foreward in a quite successful plan in east Prussia where they took land from the Junkers and gave this to new farmers which was kind of a tryout for the east. The erbhof laws played a huge role in this. The first (or best) son would inherit the farm and have to pay for the training of all other sons. These sons would then get some money from the state and with that and the training it was hoped they could make their own farming dynasty. They would be a pretty big and continuously growing source of new settlers.
>>14522352That poster was from 1939.Look up "Heim ins Reich"I still don't understand why Germany would try and immigrate all germans away from eastern europe if their plans were to wipe out the slavic populations and replace them with Germans. Only in annexed parts of Poland (the majority of which had been part of the 2nd reich) was there in effort to repopulate the region with Germans.
>>14522360My response was more tailored to anon's idea that the process of German settlement in the east could be accomplished today. Obviously, it could be done in Hitler's time, but it would still be difficult, even the planners of Generalplan Ost recognized this. Of course, they had to be careful about their wording when reporting to Himmler. Instead of just saying 'we don't have enough Germans willing to settle the new territories' they specifically made mention that the plans might be realized 'should sufficient amounts of willing Germans be made available given economic conditions' which to me, suggests that even they believed it to be somewhat wishful thinking and that's just 5.5 million people out of over 100 million Germans in Europe. So yes, it would have been possible over a period of twenty five years but not easy by any means and would require a concerted effort on the part of the state to make those specific regions intended for colonization more attractive to ethnic Germans. >>14522289>Suspiciously, the actual plans have never been foundI've posted the most detailed iteration in this very thread so we actually do have a plan, not that it suggests something as far fetched as 'Germany wanting to genocide all the Slavs' but we do have a plan nonetheless.
>>14521593The goals were to A. totally destroy the Russian state/the USSR and prevent a land power from forming anywhere east of Germany, to be done by driving as many Slavs as possible past the Urals to hopefully fight amongst themselves and B. to prevent a retarded and objectively false Malthusian idea about the German population not having enough land in 1919-borders Germany to survive without resorting to cannibalism
>>14522377Hitler really wanted nothing to do with the east and certainly didn't want to have to govern it.> In regard to Poland, Germany has only one outstanding interest, and that is absolute security for the eastern boundary of the Reich. At least during the war we cannot avoid also taking on the ballast of administering the General Government. [...] I need not assure you, Duce, that once this war is over we ourselves have only the greatest interest in ridding ourselves of this ballast of administration and responsibility—provided, however, that every further threat to the eastern boundary of the Reich is precluded.It appears he pretty much wanted back the 1914 borders in East Prussia before millions of Germans had been forced out by the Poles. Not saying this wasn't cruel but understandable. This is the only "generalplan ost" that we actually know was implemented and wasn't just wishful brainstorming by bureaucrats.
>>14522461Your Goal A is partially correct. The Germans did desire that no military power west of the Urals exist but Germany. But the part of about driving as many Slavs past the Urals as possible is only incorrect. The plan to deport 30 million Slavs beyond the Urals was drawn up by the RSHA and the idea was so discredited (as we know from Erhard Wetzel's memoranda) that they were unofficially cast aside in the discussion of Germanization, not just in the east but also in places like Slovenia and Bohemia. We have the Generalplan Ost that followed, it doesn't call for deportation but rather limited colonization of very specific sites.>Without resorting to cannibalism Fears of having to resort to cannibalism had nothing to do with it. National Socialist geopolitics were influenced by Mckinder's 'Heartland Theory' and by the examples set by their rival empires. They believed that in order to contest the might of continental sized adversaries like the USA, they needed access to a massive territorial base that would act as an exclusive market for Germany, making it both self-sufficient in the absolute basic necessities of life, especially food and essential raw materials, blockade proof and unable to be starved into submission as it was in WWI, economically capable of competing with the USA (which would have been augmented as a result of European economic integration as part of Walter Funk's 'European Economic Community' (basically a Nazi EU) and basically of a size that allowed it to more efficiently project power. If you really think about it, most Nazi geopolitical aims were really just expanding on the aims of the Imperial government that preceded it. The Nazi EEC is the equivalent to Imperial Germany's Mitteleuropa concept, with the same ostensible goals.
>>14522485>Hitler really wanted nothing to do with the East and certainly didn't want to govern itI'm sorry anon, but that's just factually incorrect. The only word that comes to mind when reading about Hitler's attitude towards the Ukraine for example is obsessed and for understandable reasons. It would be foolhardy to take Hitler at his word when he's placating Mussolini. To get a true picture, one has to read what he said in private and more importantly, examine the actual actions he undertook.
>>14522377These regions were majority Polish before the war. They wanted to deport Poles to General Government and populate this land with Germans. If it's 1939 then they were the best buddies with the Soviets, so no wonder they never mentioned Generalplan Ost. It probably wasn't even a thing yet.
>>14522581>These regions were majority Polish before the war.Yes I know. I've alluded to that in previous posts. However that was after a massive demographic shift at the end of WW1 and the establishment of Poland.> The new eastern territory annexed to the Reich has a total area of 87,000 sq. km. The population was about 9 1/2 million. The share of the Polish population in this area in 1939 was on average 82%, the German share about 11%.> In the former Prussian provinces of Poznan and West Prussia, the German population at the outbreak of the World War (referring to WW1) was about 50%, i.e. it balanced out proportionally with the Polish population.Hitler wanted to go back to 1914 status.
One thing is clear. Germany had no intention on reviving a Polish or Russian state in the event of a victory, nor did they have any intention on reviving an Estonian or Ukrainian state.The conquered territory was to be under German control, and what we are certain about is that the purpose of this conquered territory was to make Germany an imperial dominating power that could sustain itself through domestic food production and access to raw material.It is hard to think that the germans would immediately begin a program of mass extermination without any replacement demographic in such a vast amount of land. we're talking a native population of nearly 4 times thats larger than that of Germany was going to be replaced in a short timeframe. Israel is still working on settlements of what is merely maybe 0.5% of that vast landmass?The end goal was to reap the profit of the production from these lands which you definetly will not achive if you begin killing all its inhabitants.But neither would the Germans be very happy about accepting this popultion as new Germans. Poles and Czechs were already heavily segregated from Germany proper.Without documents, just how can we speculate that this eastern part of the new Germany would have been administrated and treated over the course of the decades and century. Would it have been a Belgian Congo where max production was enforced through harsh treatments? Would it have been a Cambodian styled re-arrangement of society where cities would be depopulated out to the countryside to work in the fields? Would it have been a Japanese styled Manchuria that was "self governerd" under military presence that brutalized the civilian population?
>>14522654I must disagree on some points. I think it is rather clear that the Reichskommissariat system was a transitory stage established to ensure that the German dominated power structure particularly insofar as it concerned economic matters solidified before re-examining the political administration and transitioning thereafter to a more stable and permanent model. Experiments in autonomy and limited self-governance under German tutelage were already present throughout the occupied territories. The Baltic states retained most of their pre-Soviet political infrastructure within Ostland and enjoyed varying amounts of autonomy. Hitler himself said that he foresaw the Ukraine becoming a protectorate in twenty or so years following the war. Kaukasus was already slated to become a sort of confederacy of the various peoples of the region who enjoy autonomy so long as the flow of oil was ensured. Even the worst of them all, Moskowien was experimenting with self-governance in the form of the Lokot Autonomy. >PolesAs for the Poles, yes they remained heavily discriminated against to varying degrees based on the Reichsgaue in question (less so in Danzig-West Prussia, East Prussia, and Upper Silesia and moreso in the Wartheland) >CzechsCzechs on the other hand were planned to be incentivized to become a part of the German bio-politic. Through a combination of limited settlement, cultural assimilation and general 'carrot' policies the Czechs were to be won over and properly Germanized although when exactly the Protectorate would be dissolved is difficult to say since Hitler ordered that all discussion surrounding such matters be postponed. >Without documentationWe do have documentation. I've posted it in this thread.
>>14521802The denialist argument usually goes that it was made and drafted by a minor retard official or somw shit like that ratjer than offical policy but idk.
>>14522789Technically speaking, the men in question who drafted all six versions of GPO, whether they were from the RSHA or the RFK were not big-wigs by any means. However, they had state support and it is known that Himmler personally read over most if not all of them and added his own input although the later versions dealing with colonization in the USSR itself probably never saw Hitler's desk because Himmler made mention that he still requires the Fuhrer's approval and Hitler demanded that there be no more talk of the matter after Stalingrad. So if we are being fair, then yes, it is true that the more far reaching later versions never went past the planning stage but they are good indicators for what the Germans wanted to do and in great detail as well if you look at the version I've posted which is the most detailed and complete of the six. So no, it was not 'yet' official policy per say (in regards to the USSR, in regards to Poland it more or less was) but it's a good indicator as to what kinds of trends of thought were in vogue at the time.
>>14521593>Congrats young Hans you have fought bravely and brought victory upon our glorious Reich!>also here is Helga your loyal tradwife>you are now required to resettle in bumfuck nowhere russia, start a farm there, live without any utilities while surrounded by a starving hostile indigenous population>oh and also you are required to have at least 4 children, we need more settlers and soldiers for our 1000 years Reich>Sieg Heil!I have just begun to realise the scale of nazi autism.
>>14522962The whole idea of a nationstate in the modern age attempting to conquer such a vast extreme amount of land like a fucking Khan is evidence enough.And for what reason? They were proven wrong mere 20 years after the war by West Germany that you dont need to capture an insane landmass to become an economic global force.Pic related is also evidence of how detached they were from reality. Anyone who looks at this image will instantly come to the conclusion that they may have lost the war without some jewish conspiracy.
>>14523226I'm guessing this is b8 but I'll take it just for run.Your image would imply that countries who have large, industrialized populations with access to extremely large sums of land tend to dominate on a militaristic and usually economic scale. Places such as the US, China, India and to a lesser extent, russia.
>>14521665Why Crimea?Did they want to live among Greeks and Turks or displace them?
>>14523815They wanted to replace them
>>14521593One of the most important reasons for war was lebensraum so yes, eastern Europe and Caucasus were ripe for colonization for overcrowded Germans.
>>14523812This is /his/, we dont do bait.What the image tells you is that the central powers were at an EXTREME disadvantage.The few german colonies were almost immediately captured or cut off from Germany.Two of Germanys allies were politically unstable, underdeveloped and second tier military capacity.The Entente/Allies controlled the flow of global goods and production. After 2 years Germany suffered from extreme shortage in nearly every article of a functional society and industry. Not to mention manpower and food.
>>14521593>>14526616There wasn't even enough Germans to fully settle German land pre invasion of Poland.You retarded illiterate imbeciles.
>>14521593It's not actually massive, that's just the map projections. It's way smaller than Brazil.
>>14523226>to become an economic global forceLmao Germany has smaller total GDP than the state of California. Not saying they're doing bad, the average German is clearly very well off but that's not enough to be considered a global economic power. Otherwise Luxembourg would be one
>>14523226>Implying scale isn't vital to be a true superpowerLike that other anon said nations like Germany are wealthy but they simply can't compare to the economies of large countries like America, China or the late Soviet Union.
>>14521936>he doesn't speak and read G*rman
>>14522377>I still don't understand why Germany would try and immigrate all germans away from eastern europePeople=workers+soldiersYou need to kill the bear before you butcher it.
>>14526696>>14526728Of course they're not going to come close to USA. Every single nation has been dwarfed by the US economy since the beginning of the 20th century.But West Germany was the largest economy in Europe in the 1960s, and double that of China.And that is a global economic force by definition.
>>14528493>a country propped up by the US to be a bulwark of capitalism, neoliberalism and globohomo on the European continent and the main front against the Eastern Bloc is allowed to become rich by an actual economic powerhouse which is America
>>14528502Germany recieved 3 times less than Britain, less than half of France, and roughly the same as Netherlands and Italy from US economic stimulation after the war.
>>14525691>>14523815>>14521665This guy is a jew, unironically, and Crimea was historically Gothic. Germans were playing with the idea of reclaiming Old Prussian lands and East Germanic lands.And no, there is no iteration of generalplan Ost which lays any of this out, this guy literally just makes it up and speculates based on historian speculation.
>>14528565These are three different people you are lumping together and I am one of them for some reason. Not that it matters, but I can guarantee there is not a trace of Jewish blood in me. And how are you going to in one sentence say that 'Crimea was historically Gothic and the Germans playing with idea of reclaiming East Germanic lands' and then in the next sentence 'there is no iteration of Generalplan Ost which lays any of this out'. If Crimea is historically Gothic and the Germans wanted to reclaim it as you yourself stated then how is what I am saying about German desires to colonize the peninsula contradicting that? And I haven't made anything up. I have literally posted Konrad Meyer's Generalplan Ost for anyone to read whenever they want to. The original document can be found on the same site as the more legible PDF so I don't know what you are getting so defensive over. If anything I'm doing you a favor. At least that version of GPO thoroughly demonstrates that the far more murderous version drafted by the RSHA was categorically rejected.
>>14528493>Ignoring the other countries I mentionedEven during its final years the Soviet economy was still several times larger than that of West Germany and only half the size of America's. That is the sort of economic capability you need to create a superpower and something that Hitler (and for that matter the Imperial government as well) attempted to secure for Germany and deprive from Russia.
>>14521802There was no immediate plan for the colonization but I would imagine that over the apparent thousand year Reich they would eventually get around to doing it.
>>14522962Okay you don't want to do this but there are people who want to do this and are frustrated by the fact that they can't just go and do this. "If you fight in this war we will give you land farm." is the defining motivation for soldiers through most of history.
>>14528565Crimea was settled by Greeks before Goths were a lingustic group.
>>14530486meant to add: proto-Germanic as a language originates around ~500BC