I’m confused. How did a 1995 essay by Umberto Eco, “Ur-Fascism”. Become the modern day scholars definition for fascism?Isn’t it bizarre thatA) it apparently took fifty years after the Nazis were defeated for a widely accepted definition of fascism?AndB) the definition provided is so vague it can be applied to almost any government?
>>13521802>How did a 1995 essay by Umberto Eco, “Ur-Fascism”. Become the modern day scholars definition for fascism?it didn't, academics have criticized that book into oblivion.the problem here is that you only follow youtubers and twitter personalities and come here to shit your garbage opinions
>Marxism is defined by marxists >Anarchism is defined by anarchists >Judaism is defined by jews >Catholicism is defined by catholics>Fascism is defined by anti-fascists Hmmmm
>>13521802>eco>la nave di teseointo the trash
>>13521802Are you the same guy who made a long ass thread about this on Kiwifarms today?
>>13521802>le greedy merchant faceYou would thnk theyd try to conceal themselves somehow, maybe rhinoplasty and different glasses but no, they dont even try
>>13521814>it didn't, academics have criticized that book into oblivion.Which academics? Even if they did it was probably just an offhanded remark about it not being specific enough rather than criticizing the sheer intellectual dishonesty of it (that they never would have forgiven had it come from the "opposite shore")
>>13521914>kiwifarmsWhy would anyone enter that website? My condolences.
>>13521936no you fucking retarded nigger smug idiot.historians have shit all over his book because fascism can't be generalized like that. every "fascism" is different and merits its own precise study.I can give you a name: Enzo Traverso but everything is in italian because we have shit on Eco before anyone else
>>13521963>Italian communists / Italian Trotskyists / Italian Marxist historiansHmm, sounds like a pretty spicy guy. I imagine he has an issue with it because Eco doesn't repeat the marxist party line of "fascism is capitalism in decay/industrialists defending themselves from socialism"? These guys never have anything interesting or novel to say.
>>13521980yeah you're just a smug /pol/tard who can only speak by making suppositions and fame examples.>oh, surely he was never criticized!>and if he was it was only superficially!>and if it wasn't superficially then it must have come from someone I don't like!I hope your drunk dad beats the shit out of you, you worthless piece of trash
The answer is that scholars aren't scholars because they are good at scholarship. They are scholars because they passed a test once.
>>13521997Just disappear into oblivion on the wrong side of history already. You're like a senile dinosaur.
>>13522006>he thinks grad school is just like undergrad and has multiple choice tests
>>13522008you are a worthless piece of nigger trash.you will never have a decent conversation.you will never get to know about stuff.you will never have a fruitful exchange.you are facade of a human being.nothing you say is true.nothing you say you believe.nothing you say is interesting.nothing you say you thought up.suck my cock and balls and then hang yourself in your dirty basement you /pol/tard faggot coomer mutt
>>13522021It is. I have a master's degree from a top 50 world university, and the only thing I had to do to get an A on my paper was to cite every other douchebag in my department.
>>13521980Palmiro Togliatti is one of the main Italian Marxists on this>Fascism is the open, terrorist dictatorship of the most reactionary, most chauvinist and most imperialist elements of finance capital. Fascism tries to secure a mass basis for monopolistic capital among the petty bourgeoisie, appealing to the peasantry, artisans, office employees and civil servants who have been thrown out of their normal course of life, and particularly to the declassed elements in the big cities, also trying to penetrate into the working class.>The increasing clarity exhibited here is important. The bourgeoisie is split, with the most reactionary section pushing towards a fascistic solution to the capitalist crisis. But this section of the bourgeoisie is not able to act on its own, given the pressures of a democratic society. Even if it annuls democracy through disregard for the constitution, it will still need a mass base to protect its fascistic project. This is where the question of the mass base is essential, and this is why fascist ideology draws from both the more reactionary corners of national life (namely, the ideology of racial nationalism) and the socialist movement. The word “Nazi,” which defines the German variant of fascism, is a short form of Nationalsoczialismus, or National Socialism, a phrase which perfectly captures the unstable ideological heritage of this movement.
>>13521841This lol. Why would i expect a rational view of fascism from someone with a seething hatred of it?
>F-fascism is... is.... IS all scary thing combined
>>13522383Well stated. It's the same segments of society forming the base for fascism every damn time. "Male Fantasies" by Klaus Thewelweit (sp?) is a vreat look at the personal lives of many fascists, specifically focusing on far right former freikorps and their relationships and sexualities. Makes it pretty apparent why the Nazis burned the patient records at the Magnus Hirschfeld Institute instead of keeping them around for persecution - they had a bunch of their members in them.
>fascism is when u r crazy and gay XDDDDD
Fascism is a historical phenomenon of the period 1919-1945 characterized by the emergence of revanchist nationalist movements. Any attempt to refer to a postwar movement as fascist is inaccurate and anyone self-identifying as one after the defeat of the Axis is a LARPer.
>>13522762What do fascists define fascism as?
>>13522936Nationalism and non-marxist socialism that replaces the dialectic of classes by that of states.
>>13522869Yeah, after 1919, people just decided to be nationalist.
>>13522968Fascism is a distinctive form of nationalism. It is by no means the predominant variety of it.
>>13522978Is that the "academic" consensus?
>>13522936A nationalist, anticapitalist, anticommunist and revolutionary movement that believes in the supreme authority of the state, the substitution of class struggle by class collaboration, autarchy and corporatist economics. It also promotes roman LARPing and irredentism for african and balkan territories.Ah, and it also has its own voluntary militia of blackshirts to fight the enemies of fascism
>>13521802I've read a lot of books on fascism published in the 00s and 10s, every single ones said that defining fascism is extremely hard and there's no generally agreed upon definition.Eco's version is not the one scholars use, it's the one journos and tv (((experts))) use.
>>13523233>A nationalist, anticapitalist, anticommunist and revolutionary movement that believes in the supreme authority of the state, the substitution of class struggle by class collaboration, autarchy and corporatist economics.First non retard answer ITT
>>13521802Comunist try to put their ideology in practice, but they cantFascists try to put their practices into an ideology and fail
>>13522981Don't care.>>13523233>anticapitalist>supported by capitalists
>>13521802Because fascism isn't an intellectually-rooted movement in the way that communism and anarchism are. Hell, aside from Mussolini, very few of the historical figures generally considered to be fascists even called themselves fascist.
>>13522869there is not an ''eternal fascist'' anymore than an ''eternal girondin''
>>13523378Capitalists supported communism a lot more than they supported fascism
>>13521841Zionism seems to be defined more by people against it though
>>13522855>>13522383congratulations on provimg the polchud right
>>13523587has to be b8 no way people are actually this retarded
>>13523716They spent more money funding the USSR during WW2 than they did on all fascist countries combined.
>>13523721Wow the governments of western countries supported their co-belligerents for a four year period against a common enemy after clashing with the Soviets before and after.
>>13523735>a Rockefeller owned company built all of Soviet petroleum industry during Stalinism >countless tons of armament shipped to the USSR during the war >Ho Chi Minh receiving funds and arms to fight against the Japs >commie guerillas in Yugoslavia supplied as well >USA funding every fucking communist shitter on Earth from Pol Pot to MEK and those Kurdish YPG gypsies >capitalist US corporations outsourcing production to communist China and making it a superpower USA is a KIKE SHITHOLE COUNTRY and the biggest enabler of communism worldwide
>>13523756take your fucking meds
>>13523782OK Enrique. Go back to making tacos.
>>13522967>>13522869Since when nationalism is linked to fascism? Fascist Italy weren't nationalist till germs took over. National Socialism was limited to germany alone.
>>13523808I mopped the floor with you kike boy
>>13523830>schizo rambling>accusing everyone who disagrees of being a JewDo you prefer burritos or tortillas?
>>13523894I noticed you didn't refute any of my points you desperate little shitblood
>>13523894how does it feel to get blown the fuck out
>>13521802It became popular precisely because it can be applied to almost any government more centralized than actual anarchy. It isn't beholden to any actual material organization of the economy or specific construction of the state and its relationship with capital and the general populace. Which are the true identifiers of fascism and what make it what it is. And in being disconnected from difficulties like material reality, Eco's definition becomes very easy to throw at anything you dislike.
>>13521980polcel retards like you are the lowest life form on this entire website, right next to the lgbt losers and the indians on biz spamming shitcoins.
>>13523917This isn't an example of Dunning-Kruger. You are using the pop-sci understanding of the term rather than the actual study. Which, fittingly enough, means that you're displaying the ignorance you accuse of others.
>>13524707They are objectively retarded and so are you.
>>13522383>Fascism is when things are le badHow is that analysis any more relevant, accurate, or useful than some random trailer park libertarian's explanation of 'socialism' (it's when the government does stuff, the more stuff the government does the more socialismy it is)?
>>13524715Still wasn't an example of the Dunning-Kruger effect being displayed, you are still ignorant. Do yourself a favor and actually read so you don't look so foolish next time.
>>13524730Your feelings got really hurt from being called out. Still, you probably haven't finished the reading assignment I gave you. Get on that.
>>13524737You got your understanding of a scientific term from reddit, there is no basedjack that can accurately depict you.
>>13524744You are certainly making the effort to find one, however.
>>13524747Not quite, I don't think it captures the entirety of your essence.
>>13524752No, it's still missing something.
>>13524756You really have set yourself an impossible task, I'm afraid.
I don't think there's a consensus on it. I like Roger Griffin's theory of it being revolutionary nationalism that will emerge in unique ways depending on the context. This commonly included regarding society as an integral whole (i.e the doctrine of fascism regards the state as the expression of the conscience/will of the people), a national crisis that can only be solved through radical restructuring of the state, and adopting the aesthetics of a mythical past (plus just an increase in the aestheticization of politics in general).
>>13524762Just not quite there.
>>13524772can you like stop your /qa/brainrot-spurred spergout please
>>13524772If you've any artistic talent, a self-portrait might be faster.
Off-topic, but I always had the impression "Umberto Eco" is some old author, like Renaissance or 18/19th century. That's how it seemed in the 90s, when on TV you kept hearing "book by Umberto Eco" or "author Umberto Eco" and it was made to seem special and revered like it was some classical author. Turns out it's a contemporary author.
>>13524773OK nine consecutive basedjaks is enough I guess.>>13524776I accept your concession.
>>13524784You gave up. A shame, I'm sure you were close.
>You gave up. A shame, I'm sure you were close.
>>13524795I tried to find one that you liked but I guess they all hit too close to home for you.
>>13524799No points for quitters.
>>13524798Oh it seems a new /qa/non has emerged to help find the 'jak for you.
>No points for quitters,
>>13522383>>13522855As a mostly neutral observer I can only say that the post ww2 wave of retards attempting to psychoanalize fascism is pretty funny honestly. Of course its all propaganda, like so would be a of a work claiming to psychoanalize the "communist type" (who surprisingly enough also often happens to be the resentful, marginalized and anormal, truly, we have discovered black thread again) of course it doesn't mean the authors were being malicious while writing the book, they probably genuinely thiought or think they figured it out.It's just kind of funny to me.
>>13521802>it apparently took fifty years after the Nazis were defeated for a widely accepted definition of fascism?Fascism is any form of government that would end the class warfare by forcing all classes to collaborate together. Yes, I know it mean [modern guy] isn't one. And no he isn't one.
>>13521980>yea bruh why even read his critique when I can attack the person directlyAre you literally a retard? As in, your IQ is enough to grantee you NEET bucks?
>>13524777His books are really good, that's why
>>13521802I legit wonder how someone can use this shit definition, and not be aware of how shit it is. As in, are the people repeating it aware that they're essentially lying?
>>13522383I really take issue with the part of this definition regarding finance capital. To me it's pretty apparent that in many ways fascism is characterized by the dominance of finance capital by manufacturing capital.
>>13522859Very, very based indeed.
Brainlet ideologies in general tend to fuse all their opponents into one imaginary blob due to them not being smart enough to understand nuance or context.See far-left and "fascism", feminists and "patriarchy, anti-semites and the "jewish conspiracy", anglo-saxon libertarians and "statism"...
>>13525249the blob is usually more like one person,at least they treated as such. Or at best a group of close friends.
>>13522383>Fascism is when *pejorative from my personal ideological perspective* and *pejorative from my personal ideological perspective *Fascinating stuff
>>13522855>fascists are GAY!Bravo Adorno, brilliant theory
>>13525249Except the "jewish conspiracy" theories are actually rooted in reality, at least in the west. There's lots of powerful feminists and women in positions of power so we can rule out patriarchy in the west though it does exist in places like the Middle East. There's plenty of anti-fascists among billionaires and politicians and actually admitting you like fascism is practically forbidden. On the other hand, how many politicians are there who hate jews? How many billionaires? How many mainstream media figures? Practically zero.
>>13525712After ww2 there was a plentiful supply of that shlock running around the world, the authoritarian personality, among other gay attempts to pathologize their enemies.
>>13521841Marxists, Anarchists, Jews, and Catholics all have definitions for each other. It will surprise you to learn that adopting a worldview implies a relationship to other ideological systems.
>>13525685>social democrats are fascist>nazis are not fascistfalangist cope
>>13523378more than supported them, capitalists bribed fascist officials to have better priviledges and not having to give concessions to workers
>>13521802It must necessarily depend on sophistry, as "fascism" ezsentially means you are supposed to cooperate with others and tace care to not do anything that is harmfult to others, instead of being a purely self interested "I got mine, fuck you, your problem" sociopath, and nobody can honestly argue that's bad.
Nothing Eco did will ever compare to the damage caused by Orwell when he equated dictatorships with fascism.
>>13525685if a national socialist is not a fascist, he's by definition a syndicalist.But this, it's pretty much the best definition.Fascism, is only fascism if it achieves it's means via popular support, no matter how short-termed their policies they are. All fascists in history actively tried to achieve institutional supermajorities and promoted bread & circus to increased popular support. Political leaders that actually committed to fascism:see:HitlerMussoMao >inb4 commie, commies aren't immune to fascismPeronChavez >inb4 socialism, all latam syndies are oligarchs in disguiseKirchnerEvo MoralesDa SilvaNot that it matters anymore. Internet discourse is filled with people demanding their countries' judges to be party members and the violent exclusion of anyone who doesn't share their political ideas. Everyone's a cryptofascist today
>>13527042>MaoDefinitely not, his whole thing was perpetual class war and constant upheaval of national order.
>>13527501>Mao Zedong's New Democracy concept calls for "the peasantry, the proletariat, the petty bourgeoisie and national and patriotic elements from the bourgeoisie to collectively operate for the building of a socialist society".Sounds like Class Collaboration achieved by setting some social classes as enemies via exclusionist rhetoric to me.Not too different from what Hitler did.
>>13521802>Become the modern day scholars definition for fascism?It didn’t it’s the Reddit definition.You also answer your question in your own OP.>the definition provided is so vague it can be applied to almost any government?Umberto Eco created his definition because there were people he didn’t like that he wanted to call fascist but didn’t fit the traditional mould.Being a leftoid he decides to write a wall of text worth of framing in order to change the definition so the people he didn’t like were now fascists.The trick to debating anyone using Ecos word is just ask,How any points do they need to fit?If it’s all it’s a shit definition because well know fascists like Dollfuss don’t meet the definition.If it’s only 1 it’s a retarded definition because everyone is a fascist then.There is no agree criteria because it supposed to be a hammer to selectively label people.It’s also a wall of text so just make fun of them.The left can’t meme and the left can’t define.
>>13523821>Fascist Italy weren't nationalistWHAT?Have you read Gentiles work?
>>13521802>a 1995 essay by Umberto Eco, “Ur-Fascism”. Become the modern day scholars definition for fascismSource?
>>13523414Is this a good thing or a bad thing?