>>12360511Leftists on suicide watch
>>12360511This is a good blog about hunter-gatherer societies. It BTFO's any ideas of them supposedly being egalitarian, peaceful or whatever>https://traditionsofconflict.com/blog/2020/12/13/book-review-humankind-by-rutger-bregman>Contrary to the available evidence, Bregman sums up his caricature, writing that, “For most of human history, then, men and women were more or less equal. Contrary to our stereotype of the caveman as a chest-beating gorilla with a club and a short fuse, our male ancestors were probably not machos. More like proto-feminists.”>Yet the Ache have literal club fights, which were utilized as a tool of social control by powerful adult men. Anthropologists Kim Hill and Ana Hurtado write that, “Before contact, middle-aged men between thirty-five and fifty-five years old were politically powerful and monopolized many fertile women in the population. Younger men were afraid of these “fully grown adult men” because of their strong alliances and the fact that they sometimes killed younger men in club fights.”>Many hunter-gatherer societies had ‘men’s groups’ where initiated adult men would monopolize the best pieces of game for themselves. Among the Hadza hunter-gatherers of East Africa, men would have secret ‘epeme’ feasts, where they would consume the most desirable parts of the large game animals killed, which were forbidden to women, children and the uninitiated. Among the Mi’kmaq foragers of Canada, the missionary Father Le Clercq noted that, “The women, the children, the young boys who have not yet killed any moose, and all of those who are not in condition to go to war against the enemy, do not, as a rule, enter into the wigwams where there is feasting,” and instead must wait for the men to finish before they can have the remains.
>hunter gatherers don't live in 100% egalitarian society>therefore capitalism is the only rational systemlolHGs are, as long as they don't take in slaves, a classless society, just like the first neolithic settlements. classless doesn't mean everyone gets rationed the exact same food and clothes lol
>>12360511Heh… that reminds me when I first read and ethnography on the Sámi people from the early 1900s.
leftists don't care. They'll continue to tell themselves that humans are naturally peaceful and benevolent totally lacking in greed and self-interest if it weren't for the west/capitalism/christianity/private propertythey're fucking retards
>>12360756Great blog. Love cultural anthropology.
>>12360771>income has nothing to do with class :-)lmao
>>12360771>if you just ignore when hunter gatherers take slaves, and you ignore that there's as much economic inequality as modern societies, then rousseau and engels and rawls were correct! righties btfo!!
>>12360771They are divided by sex, age and skill. Usually moreso than in our liberal democratic market societies and that includes the ones led by conservative parties.The biggest gap is our relation with social violence. We mostly restrict competition to non-violent means like dating, elections and markets. Where violence is used instead the pool of goods can be damaged through the competition for these goods. So a lot of the things you call capitalism (very murky label) are part of a system that channels inherent drives, which are much older, to more productive ends that they would otherwise leads us to.
So all these H&G threads are about "pwning" thje leftists?
>>12360886>The biggest gap is our relation with social violencelol wtf?
>>12360847literally yes>>12360848economic inequality isn't equivalent to class society>>12360886>So a lot of the things you call capitalism (very murky label) are part of a system that channels inherent drives, which are much older, to more productive ends that they would otherwise leads us to.capitalism isn't a murky label unless you are a rightoid that believes capitalism is markets and McFreedom
>>12360511These are all fake: first of all true hunter gatherers do not have houses or boats, so they can't own anything by natureSecond thing: Ownership of the land is a completely different concept and it doesn't exist among them since these groups are M O B I L E
>>12360908>it doesn't exist among them since these groups are mobileCan you fucking read
>>12360511Karl Marx is damn based
>>12360902>the new social groups that were developing—the commercial and industrial capitalists and the urban working class in the new factories—were defined mainly in economic terms, either by the ownership of capital or, conversely, by dependence on wages.
>>12360908being a hunter gatherer doesn't mean that you can't own anything, it just means you get food by hunting and gathering naturally growing plants rather than farming or pastoralism.being a hunter gatherer also doesn't mean that you're nomadic either. you could have settled territory that you do all your hunting and gathering in.stop making shit up about something you know nothing about you fucking retard.
>>12360896Like how we consider individuals have their own right to life, their bodies and their properties rather than these being owned by the corporate groups (moieties, clans, bands, longhouses, tribes, etc) that guard them with force and the threat thereof. Like, when you kill someone you don't own, you owe restititution to the owner or relatives of the person you kill, otherwise you or your kin will have to be brutalized to deter the next person who would hurt a member of the other group.
>>12360959We, in our dispassionate way of stranger courts, abstract crime away from particular family and property and think in terms of "debt to society" instead of bloodwite/wergeld.
>>12360511>excess resources among a community leads to inequality and sufferingsounds about right
>>12360771>what are tribe chiefmen
>>12360908>These are all fake: first of all true hunter gatherers do not have houses or boats, so they can't own anything by natureWTF. Do you think they just sleep in the open air?
>>12361023the leftist model of hunter gatherers stops at imagining adam and even walking around naked with leaves covering their genitals.they believe in pure mythology and are totally unconcerned with facts of human biology, archeology, psychology, genetics, anthropology, etc.
>>12361006not found im the earliest neolithic settlements. you had all similar houses and no obvious center of power
>>12360908The oldest surviving ship in the world dates back to 8040–7510 BC, in the Netherlands. Agriculture wouldn't be introduced in that region for a long time
>>12361034Anon, chimpanzees have fucking hierarchies. Just put a group of people together and often there will be a leader. Every hunter gatherer group would have had someone who was the best hunter, another who was valued for his wisdom etc, as well as some (relative) weaklings and idiots.
>>12360771Why do Marxists operate under the idea that its capitalism or their system? That if you can’t prove capitalism is the best system that must mean it’s their system that’s better
>>12361057again, classless society doesn't require everyone to be exactly the same. leadership isn't class distinction as long as the leader works the field with the rest, hunts with the rest, etc. if he lives off the work of other people, then that would be class society
>No agriculture just hunting and fishing>has a complex society with chiefs>has boats and houses>raid each other for slaves>sedentaryhow did they do it?
>>12361059Marx claims capitalism is just one of many historical modes of production. communism is ostensibly what comes next after capitalism but it's not clear what it would be like. Feudalism isn't capitalism, the "Asiatic mode of production" isn't capitalism
>>12360511It's mineIf you disagree, I will club you
>>12361057>Every hunter gatherer group would have had someone who was the best hunterthey aren't guaranteed the best leader at all. For example the San have a practice where they always never heap praise on any specific hunter and often make fun of the bounty as way to curb egos.>chimpanzees have fucking hierarchiesand many animals don't have or have social structure that you can't make solid call on it having one or not
>>12361095Doesn’t that make it very vague? Seems to me like it has disintegrated to just bring that society develops and people have material concerns From “this is where Society is going” and “material concerns have driven every major event in history”
>>12361002Bingo. That's why the H&G societies with more strife tend to be one near competition, face resource strain or other factors which is why they all very heavily very.
>>12361102> many animalsWe're talking about homids here, not shrimps or shit, Jean Cuck
>>12360939They actually have to make migrations if the food output is getting low. that's why they may or may not have set rotation so to speak>being a hunter gatherer doesn't mean that you can't own anythingthe resources and food you all gather are for the sake of the group since surplus often times is very rare in many parts of the world. Especially when hunting for wildlife that isn't small prey requires very heavy energy consumption to obtain. That's why these groups tend to be small because more larger groups are harder to sustain with foraging and hunting since you have to hunt more to feed more.
>>12361111Focusing only on homids is pointless. Especial when Bonobos also exist.
>>12361133Also chimp and gorrilas
>>12361102>W-well this one tribe, in AfricaHoly cope
>>123609081: Hunter-gatherers now all live in extremely marginal land one way or another. But this wasn't always the case, who is to say there weren't some rare state societies, there are definitely recorded instances of them existing.2:Hunter gatherers had boats, plenty of them fished, in theory, groups like the Inuit and even people like the Haida and others in the pacific northwest could be considered hunter-gatherers.3:Hunter gatherers can definitely be relatively advanced, in a myriad of ways, even developing some primitive forms of horticulture and the like.4: Sedentary hunter-gatherer societies have again, been recorded, even then, hunter-gatherers will still have possessions, especially status markers, jewelry, charms, and other trinkets.
>>12361088Fish. And oil, and dogs they bred to serve the same niche as sheep. That's how they did it. >>12361097Based gigacave
>>12361102>they aren't guaranteed the best leader at all.which I never claimed
>>12361133>>12361137Aren't all of these hominins?You did misspell hominin in the first post, right?
Marxists claimed their own brand of socialism scientific compared to other political theory, and certainly more scientific than political liberalism which posits 'the state of nature' and all that. Turns out they aren't any different. Off-topic, but some defend it by saying that unfalsified metaphysical claims are necessary for a theory to begin, especially in social or political philosophy. From the Phoenician's myth in Plato to the Abrahamic myths to deistic liberalism and finally Marxist 'scientific history' myth.
>>12361077So if there's some shaman who doesn't hunt but gets food because otherwise gods angry, that is a class distinction?
Why does anyone think that ancient tribesmen were like communal hippies? It seems like pure romanticism. Animals today don't act like that. A monkey will fight another monkey if it tries to take its food, girlfriends, sleeping place, or territory. Humans with tools and communication would've been even more hardcore than any animals in terms of protectiveness. It's bullshit.
>>12361133>Focusing only on homids is pointless.You mean our closest ancestors? Far more important than fucking shrimps>Especial when Bonobos also exist.Bonobos also have hierarchies. There may be women more higher than in chimps, but that's not to say that there is no hierarchy. Otherwise you might as well argue there was no hierarchy in Victorian Britain because Queen Victoria was a woman>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo#Behavior>Although a male bonobo is dominant to a female in a dyadic interaction, depending on the community, socially-bonded females may be co-dominant with males or dominant over them(even to the extent that females can coerce reluctant males into mating with them). At the top of the hierarchy is a coalition of high-ranking females and males typically headed by an old, experienced matriarch who acts as the decision-maker and leader of the group. Female bonobos typically earn their rank through age, rather than physical intimidation, and top-ranking females will protect immigrant females from male harassment. While bonobos are often called matriarchal, in many communities there is an alpha male who will associate closely with the high-ranking females in the group. He is co-dominant or at least the second most dominant group member after the alpha female, and helps her in curbing the aggressive impulses of adolescent males, has priority access to feeding sites alongside the females, and resident females may show preference for him as a mate.
Anprim, reactionaries and luddites btfo!Truth is that we literally do not resemble our ancestors either physically or psychologically. The self-domestication of the human species is an inherently good thing, we’ve been slowly but surely getting rid of our worst characteristics.As bad as things are today they are immensely preferable to the past.But there’s no need to worry, things WILL get better as time goes by and we get rid of more and more of our bad traits, getting closer and closer to perfection.Progress is fucking real bros!
>>12361077That leader would still get more social power and likely more material wealth dedicated towards them and their kinYou are trying to take the pack out of the wolves it's not going to work mate
>>12361208sure. but remember such a position in society would require food surpluses big enough to keep this priest alive. and also people would have to somehow believe in him and not just do their own worshipping at home (which is what the earliest neolithic settlements seem to have done, because there are no temples in their village layouts)
>>12361256>That leader would still get more social power and likely more material wealthsure I don't disagree. but that's still not class society
>>12361247>my previous claims were shattered so I'll simply do a 180 on them
>>12361258Inuits have shamans and they live in pretty hard conditions. That you cannot find temples does not mean that there were no priests, because even today hunter gatherers typically do not built large temples since they're moving around all the timeOf course in some cases they did have elaborate temples. Gobekli Tepe comes to mind
>>12360511Why did people assume they were egalitarians ?
>>12361295Many leftists want this to be so they can claim that this is a natural state, which we could theoretically go back tooThey don't like hearing about hunter gatherers having forced marriages for women or owning slaves
>>12361308Marxism doesnt claim communism is a natural state, or that capitalism is artificial/fake whatever. they are just different historical ways to organise society dependent on technology, wealth accumulation etc. maybe Rousseau is to blame for this belief, but Marxism is not utopian socialism
>>12361336I'm talking about some modern leftists, not Marx per se.
>recent survery of hunter-gatherersEpic social science. Next lets see what the feudal aristocracy thinks next.
>>12361340>Marx per seLate Marx did claim primitive humans had communism, a claim which retroactively refutes his entire production unironically. Levi-Strauss (pbuh) is better.
>>12361351Yeah, because they basically did. Nobody in a hunter-gatherer society has private property, nor do they have a feudal fiefdom because those things are fictions of their respective societies.That of course doesn't mean hunter-gatherer societies were equal, the tribal shaman probably eats and ate better than everyone else just like religious hucksters always do, but they obviously have something that is more equal than our society.
>>12361294some guy doing shaman/priest stuff doesn't imply that's all he does and he's a class apart. in kinship based societies there's always an elder/top figure, that might take part in ritualistic shit. also old people might "retire". I think that's not a distinction big enough to warrant calling their societies class society. obviously as groups become bigger and more complex material relations between people form, those guys are the germ of the priestly/aristocratic class.Liverani's book on the near East is interesting on this topic. you can see settlements' different layers change from decentralised and amorphous to more centralised over time. at the bottom layers you find religious tokens on many houses, then you find them only on temples and so on
The "communism is about le perfect equality" is right-wing propaganda, communism has never been about equality, it's been about stopping exploitation in the economic sense.
You'll own nothing and be happy.
Seriously why do communists believe proving capitalism isn’t THE natural order proves Marx right?
>>12361419It doesn't prove Marx right, but it does prove rightoids wrong.
>>12361419Keep defending capitalism. You'll still own nothing and be happy.
>>12361387>Yeah, because they basically did>source needed>Nobody in a hunter-gatherer society has private propertyPrivate property in a Marxian sense didn't exist, or any property for that matter. Primitive men didn't have the means of production, they just had the products themselves. Arguably once the first primitive means of production were developed, an idea of property based on individual experience was developed.> religious hucksters Ngmi>fictionsLol. "Superstructures" are not fiction you retarded Marxist, they are the dimension of man itself.>but they obviously have something that is more equal than our society.They absolutely weren't. Read Pareto.
>>12361419it proves human society is changing and will still change. some rightoids have the belief that capitalism is an eternal, instinctual mode of societal organisation and has always been and will ever be
>>12361451>"Superstructures" are not fiction you retarded MarxistOf course they are. The only reason private property exists is because people believe it does and the government enforces the idea with guns, it's not a feature of objective reality.
This thread is great. Seeing the goalposts being moved in real time is fascinating.
>>12361451>property based on individual experienceexcept you are wrong? property over hunting grounds was obviously communal, property over agricultural land was also communal because in order for land to become fit for agriculture you needed massive amounts of labour to do irrigation works, so you needed a central authority to feed the people doing the irrigation works (while other people worked the fields or hunted or whatever) until the works were done and the land was fit for cultivation. one dude couldn't just simply say he was going to start cultivating a random plot of land.
>>12361472What do you mean though? The picture in the OP is ridiculous bait, and the guy who posted this thread wouldn't believe that kind of horseshit social science if it was about anything else, but since it's about his political enemies it must be true.
>>12361430>>12361453God you're retarded, you understand that when "rightoids" say capitalism is eternal, they are actually playing your game and validating the idea of historical materialism? What the """Right""" (read lolberts) mean by capitalism is both an essential desire and self-interest guiding man throughout history (nothing that different from Marx) and the primary importance of exchange value ("the market") and the influence information such as quality have on the commodity, which, again, is not too dissimilar from Marx. You just have different terms, but the basic concepts are similar, with the difference being that Marxists usually put emphasis on production/supply, and conservatives on demand.
>>12361431Your alternative seems to be someone like Stalin
>>12361493the right also pretends the social institutions of capitalism are eternal (property rights, natural right etc) and that's also demonstrably bullshit historically
>>12361506The right is the side that emphasizes that without the will to fight and die for something, there is no meaning to it. It's the means to fight which are 'god-given'
>>12361517were entering schizo territory here anon, let's stay on topic
If primitive societies will have people with less and people with more why wouldn’t any more advanced society have the same for productive means?What would ever stop chadius Maximus from claiming mire?
>>12360511Marxist historians will just retcon this like they do to everything that debunks their fantasies
>>12361399Thread should've ended here lol.
>>12361463>The only reason private property exists is because people believe it does and the government enforces the idea with guns, it's not a feature of objective reality.Are the fact people believe in it and the government supporting not part of objective reality? Is value part of objective reality? Is work part of objective reality, or simply a term for the act of transformation done by men and influenced by human society? Just because it's not material, doesn't mean it's not real you m*terialist.>>12361480>property over hunting grounds was obviously communal, property over agricultural land was also communal Never denied it, I'm saying that, in order to increase productive efficiency, the idea (not the effective institution) of private property emerged in order to specialize work. Say, Grug was the smith of the tribe, a job which required advanced skills even at a primitive level, since he had the most experience. Naturally at one point, maybe after several smiths are present, Grug's forge stops being "the forge" and becomes "Grug's forge". I believe this was the seed of private property. Also calling hunting grounds "means of production" is not entirely accurate.>because in order for land to become fit for agriculture you needed massive amounts of labour to do irrigation worksThat's very late in time, well after the development of agriculture and the end of primitive communism according to Marx, and it's not universally appliable.
>>12361563>Just because it's not material, doesn't mean it's not real you m*terialist.I didn't say it wasn't real in a social sense, I said it was a fiction, which it is. Laws are also fictions anon, but that doesn't mean I can just stop following them.
>>12361506>the rightLolberts> also pretends the social institutions of capitalism are eternal (property rights, natural right etc) Unless they're retarded and deny the historical existence of common property, they usually don't and just imply the necessity implicit in the emergence of these concepts as the most valid in the guidance of the community.
>>12361594find me a single American rightoid politician who doesn't espouse the view that private property is a God given right/natural right
>>12361572>I didn't say it wasn't real in a social sense, I said it was a fiction, which it isExcept the limits between reality and fiction are very blurred in men: fiction implies a non-material or informational being which is a product of willful artifice. Men didn't create laws willingly, they emerged alongside them as society developed, with their institutionalization being just the final moment of this development. "Fiction" is the dimension of men, for we have been blessed with consciousness.
>>12361622>American rightoid politicianNo such thing, all Americans are either lolberts or post-lolberts, liberal by heart and thus non-conservative.
>>12361628Take your meds schizo
>>12361643Not yet /k/thulhu.
>>12361628sounds a pretty materialist account of the development of law, instead of the idealist "muh god and Reason" memes usually thrown around
>>12361664>sounds a pretty materialist account of the development of lawAs I said, materialism and idealism are both relevant to men, which is the creature endowed both with unlimited material desire and the piety needed to limit himself and connect to higher authorities, if they exist, and truths, with these thus acting as the architrave of human society. Historical materialism and idealism are both relevant and have to be synthesized in order to obtain a clear historical view.
>>12361705Well the point I made earlier which you got ticked off about was that I said private property and fiefdoms were fictions of their respective ages, which they are. The reason aristocracy looks like the way it does is because of the economic system of feudalism, and the same goes for capitalism.
>>12361543Because in advanced societies morality would also be advanced enough for Chadians to know that it’s not fair for some to have so much and the rest to have so little.
>>12360511>Marxists are retardedmore news at eleven.
>>12361733Nietzsche rejected bourgeois morality aka natural rights aka slave morality
>>12361748>If i say so its trueAlso its pretty ironic a commie faggot would talk about slavery or morals consider any state that was built on marxists ideals fall short on both of these things.
>>12361095>Feudalism isn't capitalism, the "Asiatic mode of production" isn't capitalismWhich is ridiculous if you spend any amount of time thinking about it.Feudalism isn't capitalism, yet somehow a feudal society where wealth has concentrated into the hands of "the 1%", is also the end state of capitalism that leftist activists warn about.
>>12360771Nobody mentioned capitalism, schizo
>>12361722>which they areThey're not, and I have already explained why. Calling them fiction hardly has any meaning even from a Marxist perspective.>The reason aristocracy looks like the way it does is because of the economic system of feudalism, and the same goes for capitalism.Not entirely true in both cases. You have to remember that economies are not totally apersonal systems (thus the failure of statistics) and that the inherited laws and morality act as a powerful force on change. Simply put, superstructure (and man in general) is by nature conservative and substructure is progressive, and thus destructive.
>>12361748Natural rights in philosophical lingo don't mean what you think they do.
>>12361748>it's another muh Nietzsche is nuanced so he agrees with me obviously episode
>>12361769>>If i say so its trueI mean, it's a pretty uncontroversial reading of NEETcha. the while idea of beyond Good and Evil is to leave behind Christian morality, which is at the base of 19th century bourgeois idealism.If you think all Nitz-chan did was seethe about le commies you are retarded. he was primarily a critique of the society he lived in
>>12361214The people spewing and propagating these myths are not even trying to do anthropology and simply get it wrong, they are deliberately building propaganda to justify and legitimize their political agenda.
>>12360511So? The ideal of humanity is still a communist state. We also came from monkeys, but I know that chimpanzees are literally shrieking apes.The idea that any of our ancestors were some mythical perfection is a rightoid cope. Leftism is about the future, focusing on the past is for right wing losers
>>12361833>The idea that any of our ancestors were some mythical perfection is a rightoid cope. Leftism is about the future, focusing on the past is for right wing losersNigga it was literally Engels himself that proposed in his theory about the historical modes of production that hunter gatherers lived under what he called primitive communism.
>>12361776the way property works in capitalism is extremely different to the way people produced things in fedualism. Marxism (And non Marxist structuralists like Braudel) don't just reduce all of the complexity of human society to income or property distribution statistics. not to mention any leftist out there is against capitalism but not for the return of feudalism either
>>12361833>The ideal of humanity is still a communist stateWhat's so ideal about being a slave that is forbidden to own property, and any right to self defense?
>>12361387>something that is more equal than our society.quite literally EVERY CAVEMAN OWNS NOTHING.
>>12361854>communism is what State Department propaganda Films from the 1950s say it is, where the Bolsheviks take your toothbrush and rape your wife
>>12361838Engels never called for the return to monke. calling early human society some kind of primitive communism doesn'tean you want to live like that
>>12361867irl they nationalise your toothbrush for the future socialism in worker's paradise and redistribute your wife to the working class, I know.
>>12361838Okay? I don't agree with Engels. He and Marx were wrong about a lot of things, most of all their ideas with historical progress. Lenin's praxis proved this wrong.>>12361854that's capitalism
>>12361833>Leftism is about the futureThen why are all the leftists countries more underdeveloped than the rightwing/liberal ones?
All of you are being fucking retards. Reason why probably needs its own thread. Keep an eye out faggots you’re on notice.
>>12361862Yeah that's why it's called *primitive* communism anon. It's called communism because there are no exploitative economic relationships, and it's called primitive because social production doesn't exist at all.
>>12361903Reminder that this commie faggot is a literal jew lmfao
>>12361909>there are no exploitative economic relationships>source needed
>>12361909>Implying grug didnt smash his neighbour skull in so he could take control of the fruit tree.Get a load of this nigger.
>>12361892what about all the countries that were backward ass shit during "right wing/liberal" colonial rule?the Soviet Union was the first country to put a man in space, had hundreds of Nobel Prize winners, developed an industry on top of the agrarian backwardness of tsarism, and all of that while having to waste a lot of resources on an army, being attacked by Nazism and encircled by hostile bourgeois states
>>12361935that's not exploitation. btw Stirner is Engels' sockpuppet account
>>12361931There aren't in the sense of some guy owning a piece of land other people work on and taking half the shit they produce for the privilege of using said land.
Re-bourgeoization. The neo-bourgeoise after the revolution fails to uphold the ideals of actual communism.
>>12361867Reminder that communists can't explain how exactly hotels work under communism, or explain why paying rent to stay in a room for a week is not exploitation, but paying rent to stay in an apartment for a year is.
>>12361971meant for >>12361892>>12361931When there is no economy- no currency, interest, or measured value- it is virtually impossible to exploit a worker. Labor theory of value mathematically proves that economic exploitations is essentially accomplished by fudging the numbers. No numbers to fudge, no exploitation. Or at least, much little than under capital systems.
>>12361958>implyingRussia was gonna industrialize with or without communism saying anything else is just tankie cope and everyone knows it.>Muh space raceIf i recall america reached the moon first so commie lost that battle kek..>Muh coloniesDid more good in the long run than bad for those shitholes, implying i should apoloigize for introducing modern medicine backward niggers.>encircled by hostile bourgeois statesKinda like how the Soviet union was encircling Ukraine, Poland and other central asian states, unprovoked.seethedilateand neck urself.
>>12361990paying rent isn't exploitation per se. Housing, Food, Transportation, are all prerequisites for workers to be in good enough shape to work. it's in wage labour that exploitation actually takes place. The bourgeoisie as a whole is responsible for all the aspects necessary for the self reproduction of capitalism.In slavery all of that is taken care of by the slaveowner, in capitalism it's distributed among different members of the bourgeoisie
>>12361480>property over agricultural landthread is about hunter gatheres, not farmers dipshitpre-industrial agriculture was heavily influenced by weather pattern that created surplus years and famine years. getting your calories met during surplus years was trivial, and cavemen had nothing to do all day but fuck around after breakfast.
>>12361994>When there is no economy- no currency, interest, or measured value- it is virtually impossible to exploit a workerThere is an economy, just not the capitalist one. I also can't see how it is impossible to exploit a worker. Do you think the tribe elders actually hunted alongside the younger generations. They were the ones charged with the distribution of the resources, so the economy as per the modern definition of it. > Labor theory of valueLol>mathematically Lol>proves that economic exploitations is essentially accomplished by fudging the numbersNo, if it exists it's because the elites control the narrative and debunk or ignore any claim or concept of "economic exploitation" in the system, and the majority, as usual, follows. That's because economic exploitation is by nature considered an exception, not the norm. You overestimate the mass' capability for critical thought.>Or at least, much little than under capital systems.Economic exploitation is relative, and thus metrically uncountable, and has a stable ratio, read Pareto.
>>12362013>Russia was gonna industrialize with or without communism saying anything else is just tankie cope and everyone knows it.I agree, I'm not a tankie, but it's undeniable that if aristocratic bourgeoise capitalism was behind the industrialization it would've taken half the time at least. Russian planes would still be have propellers and they would have never been able to have a nuclear program if it wasn't for the revolution, unless they were piggybacked by an even worse imperialist power.>muh space raceevery technological achievement was done by the soviets. I don't even care about the space race though, I don't consider myself an american>muh coloniesThey did more bad when it came to material conditions. You argue against primitive communism but then say it's worse than oppressive post imperial capitalism? You're a clown>encirclingYeah I agree, Stalin was a neo-bourge fuckface>>12362030>paying rent isn't exploitation per seYes it is. The existence of ownership granting certain rights over the non-owning class within it is a microcosm of the definition of exploitation.
>>12362013>Russia was gonna industrialize with or without communismjust like Africa, South America, and India naturally industrialised in that time, no? no lol>moon landinganother State program anyway. In that sense the US was copying the SU lol. Still the SU was first in something capitalism wasn't. and was miles ahead anything Europeans could achieve at the time. not to mention countries that were comparably rural societies when the Russian Revolution happened. to this day there's no African space program>>Muh colonies>Did more good in the long run than bad for those shitholesCommunism would clearly have worked better>Ukraine, Poland...so you just came in defense of colonialism in Africa but not you cry for the poor Ukrainians? lol
>>12360908no boats are very very old
>>12362053>There is an economy, just not the capitalist oneTell that to an economist. Hunter-gatherers are, by definition, without capital input.>lol, lolgreat refutations lmao>Economic exploitation is relativesure, but it can still be counted by approxread Emma Goldman
>>12361493>conservatives on demand.and rightly so. for the vast majority of products, the population of consumers eclipses the population of workers by orders of magnitude. only very niche products like fine art patronage have an inverse relationship between producers and consumers. customer focused utility benefits the most people.
>>12362079So you admit that the Ukranians were in fact enslaved by the bolsheviks kikes? Mashallah its a cristmas miracle.>>12362074I dont get it? I dont even believe in equality so this meme is pretty shit tier. poor and stupid people deserve to live like trash.
>>12362086>Tell that to an economist.An economist would tell you "economy" is simply the way to optimally distribute resources in society, I'd know.>great refutations lmaoRead Popper, the guy was a fag but his epistemology is good for (you).>sure, but it can still be counted by approxAnd it stays relatively stable over time.>read this anarchotranny wom*nNo. I will NOT read women.
>Capitalism wastes funds on useless prestige projects rather than helping the material circumstances of the poor and proles>OMG DID YOU KNOW THE SOVIETS WON THE SPACE RACE?
>>12362099thats retarded. separating the working class into different groups and then calling them minorities is stupid. the working people are still a majority of the population and the bourgeoisie a minority
>>12362107kulaks were taken care of in all of the SU. Polish, Ukrainian or not.
>>12362030>paying rent isn't exploitation per seThen why the leftist hostility to "landlords"?Is it all just a cynical strategy to gain the support of the urban poor?
>>12362074capitalistbros I don't feel so good...
>>12362134Now compare that to eastern europe.>>12362132Yeah im sure thats exactly what is said in those propaganda poster u have up on ur wall, fag.
>>12362067>Russian planes would still be have propellersThat seems ridiculous as everyone else's planes still had propellers until the invention of the fighter jet and even then propellers still continue to be the norm today.
>>12362134They should just put all drug addicts in prison or work camps like the commies did. Out of sight, out of mind.
>>12362079>just like Africa, South America, and India naturally industrialised in that time, no?India was around 2005 where Russia was in 1914 - rapidly developing country.And obviously India would've had developed faster if they didn't ditch at the very least the advice(if not the expertise) of the British and didn't descend into what they dubbed "agrarian socialism".
>>12362110>admits my point on the approxThat was the most important one, thanks.YWNDLTV (you will never disprove labor theory of value)>>12362157Maybe it was a bad example, but my point still stands
>>12362079>just like Africa, South America, and India naturally industrialised in that time, Did they not?Are we supposed to pretend that none of those regions possess domestic industry?
>>12361506>>12361594communal property is still property. shared ownership still implies an out-group that is not in possession. h-g societies traded all the time, and later pastoralist tribes raided each other's cattle (and women and slaves).
>>12362114The bourgeoise don't exist, there's no such thing as a class that exists entirely without engaging in labor.
>>12362170>admits economic exploitation hasn't had any big statistic change in history and thus isn't certain to have anyMy point is that even it can be counted, ita concept itself is rooted in Marxism and represents its a-priori perspective , and is thus incompatible with bougie economics in practice and theory. It's like aprioristically deciding x is true and making up a calculation system for it. External results which would influence it though show it's irrelevant.>YWNDLTV (you will never disprove labor theory of value)Of course, I won't. If I had the possibility, it would actually be scientific, rather than magick.
>>12362079The Russian empire was actually industrializing, to the point that the German leadership thought it would overtake Germany after several years.>miles ahead anything Europeans could achieve at the timeMost of the USSR's population was in Europe or of European descent.>so you just came in defense of colonialism in Africa but not you cry for the poor Ukrainians?Not that guy, and I don't think colonialism was really all that good for the local people. However, what the Soviets did kinda removes their "moral highground".
>>12362134>tfw you realize a surplus population of idle junkies and mentally ill that rely entirely on the largess of society to survive is actually demonstrative of a prosperous charitable society that prevents such human waste from meeting their inevitable Darwinian fate.
>>12361399Slavery, arranged marriages, stealing - these aren't instances of economic exploitation?
>>12361967LoL cheiftains ate better all the time, proof all over this thread before you culture wars faggots shitted it up
>>12361994>When there is no economy- no currency, interest, or measured value>implying inter-tribal trade didn't exist>implying wampum and seashells didn't exist>implying values wasn't measured in a barter systemretard is only correct about lending and interest because in hunter-gatherer societies, if one party is starving, that means everybody is starving and if one party has a surplus, everybody has a surplus.ALL producer-consumer transactions are exploitative to one party or the other, because the future value of the transacted product is unknowable. predicatble maybe, but inherently unknowable.
>>12362412>retard is only correct about lending and interest because in hunter-gatherer societies, if one party is starving, that means everybody is starving and if one party has a surplus, everybody has a surplus.No see >>12360756>Many hunter-gatherer societies had ‘men’s groups’ where initiated adult men would monopolize the best pieces of game for themselves. Among the Hadza hunter-gatherers of East Africa, men would have secret ‘epeme’ feasts, where they would consume the most desirable parts of the large game animals killed, which were forbidden to women, children and the uninitiated. Among the Mi’kmaq foragers of Canada, the missionary Father Le Clercq noted that, “The women, the children, the young boys who have not yet killed any moose, and all of those who are not in condition to go to war against the enemy, do not, as a rule, enter into the wigwams where there is feasting,” and instead must wait for the men to finish before they can have the remains.
ITT>communists seething about their theories>getting BTFO by actual data from hunter gatherer societies
The commies are kinda right desu Also find me a single major conservative papers whose policy isn’t at least “climate change might be real or not so let’s err on the side on caution and say it’s fake”
>>12362086>Goldmanevery fucking time
>>12362458>The commies are kinda right desuHow. Hunter gatherer societies have leaders, unequal division of resources, forced marriages, slavery, warfare, violence etc.>muh climate changenot relevant
>>12362470About conservatives thinking we live in the end of history
>>12362114the working class implicitly separates themselves. anybody buying anything in a store is engaging in enabling behavior that allows the capitalist to continue "exploiting the workers." consumers are just workers who are tribalistically OK with exploiting workers other than themselves
>>12362134>t. i know that train station
>>12360511>steven pinkerAlso took five seconds to see his statement about the Gini coefficient is false. https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/11/171115130853.htmHunter-gatherers were not fully egalitarian, had some vague notion of property (bonk if you pls) but they still typically lived communally. Rightoids are also retarded, considering they're celebrating this ruthless Darwinian conception of the world, up until you remind them it's just survival of the fittest with how the West will inevitably be swallowed up by China. Haha your grandkids will be brown and that's just Darwin for ya :^)
>>12362170>YWNDLTV>what are unsold rotten fruit? what are empty houses and hotel rooms? what are clothes that don't fit right? what are defective or damaged products? what is theft or fire?the marginal value of any non-mitigatable risk causes the difference in value between cost and price. every business that has ever gone bankrupt refutes LTV.
>>12362260to be fair that's the path they're forced into if they don't want to/aren't able to participate in monetary society. try building a structure in the woods and living off the land, you'll get arrested for violating zoning/game laws or maybe shot if the landowner isn't in the moodthere was a hermit who had his cabin he built and lived in for 27 years burned out while he was in court after the city arrested him for trespassing earlier this yearhttps://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9871885/Hermit-River-Dave-says-hes-happier-billionaires-release-jail.htmlit was originally just a trespassing thing after the property changed hands from one family member to another but the authorities wouldn't let him go back even if he got the ok from the new owners because the structure was no bueno. the powers that be won't let you live a natural life without being subject to private property regulations and taxation. there's some people who squat on federal land but it's up to the whims of whoever finds them if they go to jail or not100 years ago you could live on your own terms if you isolated yourself far enough but helicopters and drones and such make it that much harder
>>123624281) i meant that in the context of intertribal trade, not intra-tribal allocation. weather patterns created prosperity or poverty for all tribes a the local area.2) intra-tribally, the prolies are still eating something, not starving. the bougies are simply eating tastier.
>>12362554>your grandkids will be browneveryone in this thread is either a khv incel who has never seen un-pixelated genitalia, or a self-mutilated eunuch
>>12361399In a stateless society, what's preventing the mountainfolk from raiding the lowlanders?
>>12362585>you could live on your own terms if you isolated yourself far enoughlefties shit on elon musk when they say space travel will be for the elite, but that's only short term thinking. in the long term it will allow prolies to fuckoffinnawoods in space. there are no landlords in space
>>12362554You will never have communism, anon. It will never happen. I was going to say that your grandchildren will live under capitalism, but you won't reproduce anyway.
>>12362667>you won't reproduce anywayProjection. Bow down to your future master.
>>12362635volunteer security personnel, aka vigilantes like the McMichaels
>>12362192none of those have a space program, and they all have mostly agricultural and resource extraction based economies
>>12362682You realize China's fertility rate is in the shitter, right?
>>12362682>Commies will lick the boots of fascists as long as they have a red flagSo this is the power of scientific socialism... whoa
>>12362682>cites the country with 114/100 gender ratio and 100M non-reproductive males.theoretically the incel chinks have more incentive to become trannies than any westoid
>>12362554>Haha your grandkids will be brown and that's just Darwin for ya :^)You think that's a "gotcha"? I'm mixed and dislike commies
>>12362554>China>brownNEWSFLASH! Pigmentation, light reflection and refraction are social constructs!
>>12362712yet they don't lolmutts become trannies because they are getting ready to receive SCC (small chink cock)
>>12362810Corporations under state control within a capitalist economic framework is pretty close to fascism, yes.
>>12362824fascism is class war against the working class in a moment at which he working class is radicalising. not the same in china. China is just another state capitalist project
>>12362837>fascism is class war against the working class in a moment at which he working class is radicalising
>>12361133Bonobos are much more violent than humans. their peaceful nature is as compared to chimps.
>>12362843the bourgeoisie is not a monolithic thing. Fascism was the solution for the Italian and German bourgeoisie, not for the American, French or British Bourgeoisie.hell even Italian Fascism was already pretty mild by the time of the war, because the working class was already pretty much tamed.The allies going to war with Hitler doesnt mean Hitler was somehow not a bourgeois politician. The allies went to war with the German Empire aswell, and even wanted the Soviets to reopen the eastern front, doesn't make the German Kaiser anything but a defender of the German Bourgeoisie
>>12362837This is just regurgitated platitudes that commies mouth off rather than realizing that they are just doing exactly the same as fascists. It's like rationalizing that anything a capitalist country does is 'imperialism', but when a commie country flatout invades a neighbor to take their land, it's not "technically" imperialism because of some reductive and myopic Marxist interpretation.
>>12362945>the bourgeoisie is not a monolithic thing. Fascism was the solution for the Italian and German bourgeoisie, not for the American, French or British Bourgeoisie.>hell even Italian Fascism was already pretty mild by the time of the war, because the working class was already pretty much tamed.>The allies going to war with Hitler doesnt mean Hitler was somehow not a bourgeois politician. The allies went to war with the German Empire aswell, and even wanted the Soviets to reopen the eastern front, doesn't make the German Kaiser anything but a defender of the German Bourgeoisblown the fuck outcommunism was funded by wall street jews, kiddiehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfHGLcRz-P8
>>12362837I dont know how people can feel that rightoids are reductive when commies say shit like this
>>12360511I literally had a discussion about this with communists other day. I told them primitive communism non-sense was bullshit. They literally made it up - I like I said they did. Sociology is not a real science - it allows psueds like Marxists to spew their non-sense without being challenged on it. Too bad empirical methods of analysis have improved significantly since then because its been forcing Marxoids to take Ls ever since.
>>12361399You can't stop exploitation because its necessary for human survival. The OP shows this by proving even primitive human beings were as exploitation as anyone else of their environment and people. Humans have to exploit each other because they are competing for scarce resources and time to do productive tasks, retard. You just don't understand human nature.
>>12362554That article doesn't even debunk the OP, retard. It actually agrees because they fine similar Gini values - you just lied. Living communally doesn't necessarily mean people are communistic. You can live communally, and still have hierarchies of people who receive more based on their skills and position.
>>12361023A tent is not quite a house. That's why we call them tents.You can't have a life of comfort and settle down in a movable house because of the nature of your life. Just like in US trailer parks, only tourists and white trash lives there
>>12363385wrong, dumb faggot
>>12363385hunter-gatherer gini median .17
>>12363359>You can't stop exploitation because its necessary for human survivalYou can by making everyone's an equal shareholder of collective economy. Somehow coops do exist and they have higher survivability rates than more traditional private small business.
>>12360511>a recent surveyfucking time travelers
>>12363339sociology can be a real science, but when it is done as a real science it is indistinguishable from economics and psychology. it happens to be the case that sociology is simply full of zealots of the leftwing secular religion doing nothing but preaching ideological speculation.also, ethnography isn't academic research or science. At best it is journalism. Infact due to leftist ethical considerations it can't even serve very well as data gathering for history. >durr hurr due to privacy concerns for those I was doing ethnography of, I wasn't able gather any proof or evidence for anything I'm claiming tee hee
>>12360511bunkerchuds on suicide watch>b b but muh protocommunist hunter gatherers
>>12360756also destroys the subhuman roasties who keep insisting without evidence that that matriarchal societies where the norm this is so good
>>12363406>You can by making everyone's an equal shareholder of collective economyThat still would be exploiting people, idiot, because it comes at the opportunity cost of exploiting scare time to make that happen. Also, since people are inherently unequal from own genetic inclinations that would create another opportunity cost because people who are more productive are going to have to limit their potential by treating everyone as an "equal shareholder" when in reality some human beings are better producers than others and would be design have to contribute more to meet collective interests. Your solutions are uniquely utopian. Ah, yes, I should surrender my abilities to achieve the best results for myself because of your foolish belief that it would be "sinful" for me to best exploit my environment to the best of my abilities as I do now. Even your argument, about co-operatives is non-sense because we see that co-operatives are niche, and can't even compete with traditional capitalist organizations that focus on productivity instead of collective equity. Like you people have no fucking argument that makes any fucking sense. You are essentially arguing for a position benefits you at the expense of the mass majority of people who are satisfied with an economic that works best for them. You people literally don't live in reality - why do you most people hate you, and don't hold any power in the countries you live? People aren't stupid - they understand the implications of your terrible beliefs. Get a clue.
>>12362837>GUYS! GUYS! GUYS! WE HAVE TO HOLD HANDS AND LIVE LIKE SARDINES AND WAIT FOR THE COMMUNIST PARTY TO FINALLY WITHER AWAY THE STATE AND CLASS SOCIETY BRO! >what? NO! YOU AREN'T BEING EXPLOITED! KEEP WORKING, THE WORKERS UTOPIA IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!God, you people are utter fucking retards. Stop posting on /his/ - you faggots are beyond hope. Kill yourselves - please.Marxists are people who have created an entire pseudo-science to deny the agency our genes give us to act as if society is the determining factory for our status in the world. The lies these people tell to hide reality from people is utterly fucking pathetic and shameful.
>>12363489>That still would be exploiting peopleNo, it wouldn't.>Muh genetically better producerExploitation and leadership are not bound to genetics, and so is productivity. Good genes certainly help, but material and social capital have more influence.
>>12360511So basically another Marxist concept debunked and it's not some minute irrelevant detail it was an original prominent idea introduced by Marx. If you are an honest commie shouldn't this shake your Marxist beliefs just a little bit?
>>12361059Why can't porkies asses the issues with Capitalism without seething about a system that has never worked?>hey man why are these monopolies cornering the markets and why were some death squads funded by Coca Cola and..>STFU YOU'RE A COMMUNIST STOP MENTIONING THOSE THINGS YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY SHILLING GOBMUNISM
>>12363540>No, it wouldn't.How the fuck are you not exploiting people by wasting their fucking time with ideas that could not possibly work in their life time? Everything you do has a cost because every thing you do is time you could have been doing something else. You are an absolute retard - you really think we should wait for you to figure out the solution for our lives because, the utopian in you believes you know what circumstances works for everyone and not ourselves who live in reality and have to address these problems NOW and not in some distant future - you fucking moron. There is no way you're an adult because only a fucking CHILD would have your mind.>Exploitation and leadership are not bound to geneticsActually, retard, the point about genetics isn't being made here you stupid fuck. Exploitation is necessary for human beings to make the best use of their finite time to get things done. We will always have to exploit human beings to get things. That's a fact - it doesn't matter economic theory you have its a foundation of ALL economic theory. You are just a shrew, pathetic utilitarian who denies the reality even your beliefs would subject others to exploitation for your revolutionary goals. I thank god every day you fucking retards lost the Cold War, and rightly so condemned and mocked by society. You idiots have no business discussing what the world ought to be.
>>12363569The problem isn't capitalism - its you. You just don't want to accept the fact that being an adult means you have responsibilities. Your parents need to kick your ass out of the house make your bum ass get a job.
> Soviet archaeologists interpreted the paleolithic Venus figures, many of which were found in the Soviet Union in the 1920s and 1930s, as evidence of a primeval communist matriarchy. Influenced by Morgan's and Engels' works they viewed the various paleolithic cultures as being primitive communist and matriarchal.So this is where the entire meme about pre Industrial societies being matriarchal. Liberally Soviet/Jewish pseudoscience but I read an article by a commie recently that claimed the patriarchy emerged with capitalism. God I hate those subhumans so much
Depends where you live. In my city and around, empty plots including marginal lands are used for illegal farming. Sometimes they got tents.If we got rid of some of these government regs we could go back to having garden hermits like Victorians did.
>>12363589https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyphenLearn how to use it. Then accept that the white race is doomed to extinction and that's just a positive side effect of modern capitalism.
>>12361748Nietzsche rejected bourgeois morality because he was an aristocrat. That's not a really good argument, retard because he also rejected socialism for the same reasons - its the morality of the replaceable, resentful underclasses. Nietzsche explicitly argued the concerns of the workers should be ignored because they only exist to produce goods for the best members of of society. Don't bring up Nietzsche, kid, he didn't like you degenerates at all.>"Accordingly we must accept this cruel sounding truth that slavery is of the essence ofCulture; a truth of course, which leaves no doubt as to the absolute value of Existence. Thistruth is the vulture that gnaws at the liver of the Promethean promoter of Culture. Themisery of toiling men must still increase in order to make the production of the world of artpossible to a small number of Olympian men. Here is to be found the source of that secretwrath nourished by Communists and Socialists of all times, and also by their feebler descendants, the white race of the “Liberals,” not only against the arts, but also againstclassical antiquity. "Nietzsche agrees with the bourgeois on this point though - exploitation, inequality are necessary because they tools to separate the wheat from the craft. Socialists simply the weak who are let behind, and who endless plead as they drown.Don't come here acting like you've read Nietzsche, profligate. He hated degenerates like you.
>>12363632You need to accept the fact you only exist to serve the superior members of society, and you will perish without ever achieving your socialist dreams. People like you have to die, suffer to make way for better individuals.
>>12363653>suffer to make way for better individuals.I'm happy you accept your future Chinese masters with such grace, as do I. The yellow century is upon us and as usual only the fittest will survive!
>>12360917Yes, you idiotic retard; the paper mentioned does not talk about land ownership. At all. Hunter-gatherers do not own land. Inequality =/= land ownership, anyway, you can be "unequal" in a million ways, this entire paper/thread seems like rightists grasping for straws to stretch the definition of "unequal" to its absolute limits to "pwn dae cummies" or some shit like that.
>>12361639>No such thing, all Americans are either lolberts or post-lolberts, liberal by heart and thus non-conservative.Based and long-view-of-history pilled. Fuck aristocratic conservatism!
>>12363718Retard what happened to "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" Hunter gatherers were unequal and patriarchal contrary to what Marx said>>12363668
>>12363807That guy's not me. Just to clarify, I'm a social democrat, not a big fan of the PRC. Highly regulated capitalism is good at this stage of technological development, though some industries like healthcare need to be nationalized altogether. It's just you fascist pricks have an extremely inconsistent, cruel, and idiotic world view that needs to be pointed out sometimes. The minute the shoe's on the other foot you start crying about how white babies need to be subsidized but everyone else should die in the cold. Let the stronger men win, well China's well on its way to being the stronger man and we'll see what they do with that. Maybe reevaluate, sweetie pie. Lmk if this is friendly fire ok, qt.