[a / b / c / d / e / f / g / gif / h / hr / k / m / o / p / r / s / t / u / v / vg / vm / vmg / vr / vrpg / vst / w / wg] [i / ic] [r9k / s4s / vip / qa] [cm / hm / lgbt / y] [3 / aco / adv / an / bant / biz / cgl / ck / co / diy / fa / fit / gd / hc / his / int / jp / lit / mlp / mu / n / news / out / po / pol / pw / qst / sci / soc / sp / tg / toy / trv / tv / vp / vt / wsg / wsr / x / xs] [Settings] [Search] [Mobile] [Home]
Board
Settings Mobile Home
/his/ - History & Humanities

[Advertise on 4chan]


Thread archived.
You cannot reply anymore.


[Advertise on 4chan]


Why did Europe decide to commit suicide over some Serboid chimpout?
>>
>>12359921
muh glorious death
>>
Well somebody doesn't understand 19th century European geopolitics...
>>
>>12359921
Family squabbling, essentially. Only the family in question had command of multiple nations, and their rationalisations called for millions of men to fight each other because none of them realised how meaningless it all was.
>>
>>12359921
german greed essentially
>>
>>12359921
Everyone thought everyone else was bluffing. Then the war got too brutal too fast to circle back. The fact that the war basically went to full throttle immediately was not predicted by anyone. The logical chain from "Austria attacks Serbia, Russia backs Serbia and invades Austria, Germany backs Austria and attacks Russia, France backs Russia and attacks Germany (this would have happened if Germany didn't pre-empt the French), Germany attacks Belgium to get at France, and Britain declares war on Germany to defend Belgium" was well known but nobody really thought it would go that smoothly, someone was bound to break their promise, right? Well, nobody did. Except the Italians I guess.
>Why were they willing to play chicken with the existence of their country on the line
prestige autism and the simple fact that almost nobody realised the scale of what they were getting into.
>>
>>12359921
Autism
>>
>>12360129
>Russia backs Serbia and invades Austria
Except Russia didn't invade Austria. Germans declared war on them anyway
>>
>>12359921
Dumbfucking Austrian nobility.

A banditry problem should be solved using other bandits, not standing armies.
>>
>>12361421
They mobilized. Germany was so scared of Russia that they thought they would have to send 100% of their armies to the east to fight them in a long war, otherwise they would have no chance against them.
The opposite turned out, France proved impossible to crack and Russia couldn't even knock out Austria-Hungary and imploded by itself.
>>
>>12361421
Mobilization in WW1 era was considered an act of war. It means you're massing millions of troops on the border for offensive operations and calling up conscripts/reserves - every other country has to also mobilize or risk being attacked without their armies organized and concentrated. You didn't have to actually invade to be a threat, you had to call up your armies onto the border and that was enough to be seen a provocation for an act of war.

So when Russia attempted limited mobilization only in districts against Austro-Hungaria, Germany still felt threatened mobilized in response and so Russia went full mobilization.
>>
>>12362562
Russia could knock out Austria-Hungary, and were about to do so in the early weeks of the war, and so the Germans had to divert two army corps from the west to save the situation which may have been a crucial factor for why the western offensive failed.
>>
>>12360129
This had almost happened back in 1911 with tensions high between Austria and Serbia, it didn't happen because Russia threatened to garantee Serbia.

What was different in 1914 was the German military command had basically told the Austrians to go for it, because they would deal with the Russians.
This happened because Germany wanted a war, because they were confident they could win it, it wasn't some entanglement.

The actual direct cause of the war was Germany, the reason Germany felt they needed to go to war is more complicated.
>>
The problem is that it was pretty much the first ever industrialised mass warfare.

The closest example to it previously was the American civil war which was much more limited and neither side would back down without total defeat for ideological reasons

The leaders at the time simply couldn’t fathom how bloody it would get so quickly.

So what starts as a minor dispute in Serbia turns into countries feeling grieved at the fact literally tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of their men have died fighting.

After that. De-escalation is nigh impossible. All the countries with such losses will naturally demand compensation in some form or another.

Add on to that the German rape of Belgium. Where they literally broke their own treaty to invade a neutral country for a relatively minor advantage, then brutally mistreated their occupied territories civilians. forced 120 thousand belgians into forced labour and killed thousands with electric fences alone preventing them fleeing.

At that point it became both a war from the allies of wanting satisfaction for their losses, and for a sense of justice for the Belgians. Along with fear of what Germany would do if they had power over them.

After all. If Germany was willing to fuck the Belgians over that hard despite them not even being enemies to Germany, not even being part of the allies, just for being NEUTRAL. what would the Germans do to their actual enemies if they managed to win?

Germany was pretty much seen as acting like a non civilised country after they broke their treaty to invade Belgium.
>>
>>12363192
Nonsense. Even if they took Hungary they wouldn't knock out AH (and they never through the Carpathians).
Germany had to send forces east because they panicked after the invasion of Prussia, but that ended in a complete Russian collapse before the reinforcements got there.
Russia was a total failure in WW1, it's quite embarrassing. But they did made up for it in the next one.
>>
>>12363011
>So when Russia attempted limited mobilization only in districts
Then the tsar's advisors told him it's IMPOSSIBLE because if their neat spreadsheets and he went along with mobilizing against both Germany and Austria-Hungary.
Rasputing warned him.
>>
>>12363256
>German military command had basically told the Austrians to go for it, because they would deal with the Russians.
Did you see this in a dream? They wanted the Austrians to hold back Russia while they dealt with France. Instead Austria sent half of its army to invade Serbia.
>>
>>12362562
>They mobilized
>>12363011
>Mobilization in WW1 era was considered an act of war.
Not it wasn't considered an act of war, retards
>>
>>12363498
>Nonsense. Even if they took Hungary they wouldn't knock out AH
Imagine being such a delusional retard
>But they did made up for it in the next one.
Of course, a commietard
>>
>>12364860
>Intricate plans for mobilization contributed greatly to the beginning of World War I, since in 1914, under the laws and customs of warfare then observed (not to mention the desire to avoid compromising national security), general mobilization of one nation's military forces was invariably considered an act of war by that country's likely enemies.

Learn to history, retard
>>
>>12359921
Monarchism
>>
It was really only the involvement of England that was unjust.
>>
>>12363383
Belgium wasn't neutral. Fuck off. You are not neutral, if you make a ton of secret treaties only with one side, which uses you to contain the other side. Belgium wasn't raped either. That's 100 year old entente propaganda.
>>
>>12359921
No nukes and nobody knew what post 1900s Total War looked like yet.
>>
>>12363383
>Germany was pretty much seen as acting like a non civilised country after they broke their treaty to invade Belgium.

People keep harping on this but nobody talks about the Bongs invading Greece just a year later.
>>
>>12365665
Guess who did more damage
>>
>>12364873
The Austro-Hungarian industrial base was not in Hungary, dumbass. And Russia performed terribly in WW1, completely below expectations and completely surpassed expectations in WW2.
>>
>>12359921
Germany used the serbian crisis as a pretext to launch its war on France and Russia and achieve continental hegemony.
>>
>>12366283
There were hawks and doves in all governments.
In the end it was the Russians who decided to blow up the regional conflict into an international one.
>>
File: alternateww1.png (84 KB, 1200x1000)
84 KB
84 KB PNG
>>12359921
because Germany made a bad foreign policy
>>
>>12366295
Germany IS a bad foreign policy
>>
File: 1524209874732.jpg (176 KB, 1459x859)
176 KB
176 KB JPG
>>12360129
>Everyone thought everyone else was bluffing.

Wrong. Everyone liked war, and thought it was glorious, and the reason why is that most war before that point had only been relatively small skirmishes between 1000-1500 people in a small area of land using muskets.

They didn't know what they were getting themselves into with the advent of machineguns, chemical warfare and modern artillery.
>>
>>12363383
>Add on to that the German rape of Belgium. Where they literally broke their own treaty to invade a neutral country for a relatively minor advantage, then brutally mistreated their occupied territories civilians. forced 120 thousand belgians into forced labour and killed thousands with electric fences alone preventing them fleeing.

anglo propaganda
>>
>>12366290
Not really, the serbian crisis could have stayed a squabble between Russia and Austria over some slavic lands. What turned into a whole european war was Germany's unconditionnal backing of Austria, steering it to declare that war that could allow them to attack Russia and France.
>>
>>12366303
Neutral Americans with absolutely no reason to want American involvement reported the very same.
>>
>>12366316
yeah, even moldbug said that the anglos were in the wrong by falsely portraying germans as some barbaric monkeys, they´re in the wrong and it´s their fault WW2 happened too
>>
>>12366325
>Brits: The Germans are raping Belgium!
>Americans: Well that's hyperbole but the Germans are doing some pretty serious shit to Belgium regardless
Retard
>>
File: DasPerfideAlbion.gif (897 KB, 1100x1589)
897 KB
897 KB GIF
>>12366325
>anglos were in the wrong by falsely portraying germans as some barbaric monkeys

lol
>>
>>12360026
By the time of WW1, the French had no royals, the ones in Britain had no power, the ones in Germany had an odd form of power sharing, and only Russia was entirely autocratic (and ironically the Russians were the most gun-shy about mobilisation arguably because talking to your cousin is a much more humanizing experience about what war will bring in comparison to looking at a map.), this is an idiotically simple explanation for a complicated war, the story of post Napoleonic Europe is the system of the congress of Europe eroding and eventually collapsing in 1914.
>>
>>12366308
Austria-Hungary was Germany's only ally, they couldn't let them be crushed without being geostrategically compromised. Meanwhile Serbia was not vital to Russian interests at all, it was all a prestige thing. And Russia didn't have any serious beef with either Germany or Austria-Hungary, there was no proper reason to invade them. Hence why their morale was low, which led to the revolution.
Meanwhile the 'sick man of Europe' where all the minorities hated each others guts kept fighting on, defeat after defeat after defeat, because the public saw the war as a defensive one.
>>
>>12366376
>Austria-Hungary was Germany's only ally
This was also Germany's own fault. They had excellent prospects but were not so strong as to become the logical victim of a coalition, the only country that categorically could not be their ally was France, but they managed to alienate basically everyone else as well.
>They couldn't let them be crushed
No such thing would have occurred if Austria seized the initiative against Serbia more enthusiastically, but in truth, that was extremely unlikely. It was Austria's erratic swinging from slow deliberation to a extremely tight ultimatum that made a larger European war possible, the norm was for such crises to last months with slow negotiations at every step.
>>
>>12366376
If they only intended to preserve Austria, they wouldn't have given Austria the blank check for a war in the Balkans. That was the surest way to induce a war between Austria and Russia.
>>12366426
>This was also Germany's own fault. They had excellent prospects but were not so strong as to become the logical victim of a coalition, the only country that categorically could not be their ally was France, but they managed to alienate basically everyone else as well.
Something Bismarck understood and he spend the two decades after 1870 isolating France and managing alliances with all the major powers. His successors weren't as wise.
>>
>>12366426
I have no idea what need germany had to fight anyone for any reason, but seems like the determined fate of teutons to just be dumb warmongers.
>>
>>12366438
The excuse was that Russia, beginning proper industrialisation in the early 1910s, would surpass Germany's strength within a few years, and France was assumed to be a steadfast Russian ally. If Russia alone was stronger than Germany, and Germany also had to leave troops to hold off France, they'd be fucked.
Such a view completely ignores that Britain is absolutely fucking not going to let Russia steamroll through Central Europe, but Prussian autism demanded they be the strongest country in Europe in a 1v1 context even though that was never going to fucking happen with the geopolitical situation by 1914
>>
>>12364873
What do you think would happen if Russia broke into Hungary in 1914? You think Vienna would just capitulate?
On the contrary, they would have German forces rushing in to save the situation and the overstretched Russians would suffered a catastrophe worse than Tannenberg or Gorlice-Tarnow.
Germany would also take over command of AU forces in 1914 instead of 1917 and keep them on the defensive. Conrad wouldn't be able to deplete their armies with his idiotic offensives.
>>
>>12366448
Britain has no magic wand though, it can provides finances to build coalitions and naval supremacy, but its land army wasn't strong enough to prevent Russia from steamrolling on central Europe. Actually that's literally what happened during WW2.
>>
>>12366432
Austria had a completely legitimate casus belli. They couldn't allow Serbia to keep launching terror attacks against them. Anyone who's dealt with a bully knows that turning the other cheek does not work.
Russia had also backed off on Balkan issues in 1878 and in 1908. How were they to know this time they would go in? Particularly when their armies would've been sooo much stronger in just a few years. It was a stupid thing to do.
>>
>>12366479
Austria made it impossible not to have war on Serbia with their ultimatum and were nudged to do that by Germany. They also disregarded Russian ultimatium to stop war because of Germany's unconditional backing that materialized by the declaration of war of Germany on Russia and France.
Again factor off Germany and you have just a balkanic crisis between Austria and Russia that would at best have been defused through diplomacy at worst a regional, limited war between Austria and Russia.
Germany turned it into the european war it wanted to achieve hegemony, absolute security (same thing).
>>
>>12366494
The ultimatum being outrageous has been massively exaggerated. The demands were to stop the newspapers from openly calling for war, to stop smuggling weapons to Bosnia, arrest known terrorists and let Austrian policemen help apprehend The Black Hand. Serbia could have accepted it and thwarted the war, but they got their blank check from Russia and opted for war.

And treating Germany as a single entity is just disingenuous. They had warmongers and people doing all they could to avert the war, just like every other country.
>>
>>12366448
geopolitical excuses are irrelevant if they are just gonna wake up in the morning and think on how to disturb everyone else.

I refuse to believe live in Germany is so boring fighting the world is always the solution.
>>
>>12366551
Germany absolutely wanted the war and was delusional about it till the very end just think of Lusitania and the Zimmermann
>>
File: Lusitania_warning.jpg (264 KB, 331x931)
264 KB
264 KB JPG
>>12366561
>Lusitania
Germany did nothing wrong there
that ship was listed as an auxiliary cruiser and carried ammo, that made it a legitimate military target
its passengers weren't aware of that, essentially they were used as human shields
the German embassy even warned explicitly beforehand about that, pic related
>Zimmermann
diplomatically unwise bc it was an unrealistic proposal, but not unreasonable
it was a proposal for an alliance with Mexico *in the case that the US attacked Germany*. It wasn't intended to attack the US, just to distract them in case they attacked first.

that said, I agree Germany wanted the war in 1914 to crush Russia and France, but the propaganda you continue to repeat is silly
>>
>>12366561
Oh, fuck off. There were people who absolutely wanted war and others who were fighting to de-escalate the situation.
I could claim Serbia ABSOLUTELY WANTED WAR too. But that's not true, their prime minister certainly didn't.
>>
>>12366571
>>12366576
Look everyone brought black powder to the barrel but one lit it up
>>
>Russia mobilised, Russia scary
>but my emperor you refused to renew peace treaty with Russia
>>
>>12366592
Both Germany and Russia could've backed off and not supported their ally. Both chose to back them, yet Germany's unequivocally at fault?
Does not compute.
>>
>>12366606
>the guy in charge of the country is literally my cousin, he's not gonna throw his entire country just for some french people is he?
>>
>>12366628
>Would Wilhelm really throw Germany away for Franz Ferdinand
>>
>>12366426
>No such thing would have occurred if Austria seized the initiative against Serbia more enthusiastically
Austria had really dumb internal politics. They could've easily garnered international support for the assassination of their prince, but they chose to Forbid anyone to come to his funeral because the Habsburg elite hated him.
They also stalled with the ultimatum because the French foreign minister was visiting Russia and they thought it was better to wait till he went home.
>>
imo, it was absolutely reasonable for Germany to go to war against Russia to carve out buffer states in Eastern Europe
Russia was huge, and about to industrialize, it would've become unstoppable given a few more years, and Germany would've ended up at Russia's mercy
what was stupid was not making sure to isolate Russia beforehand and limiting the war to Eastern Europe
Bismarck waged war against powerful enemies too (Austria, France), but he made sure that he did so under the best possible circumstances
>>
>>12366696
They had no conflict whatsoever, no territorial demands on one another, they had been allies a few decades back. Their monarchs were cousins. And they were also major trade partners, Germany was getting rich selling goods to Russia.
The only real reason they would have to go to war was if the Ottoman pie was gonna go out for grabs and they wouldn't be able to reach an agreement with Russia wanting the Straits and Germany building the Berlin-Baghdad railway.
But going to war over some pointless shithole like Serbia was incredibly stupid from both sides.
>>
File: dfqizb090b731.jpg (201 KB, 1807x1335)
201 KB
201 KB JPG
>>12366725
Serbia wasn't what the war was about, it was just the excuse
as the Ottomans withdrew from the Balkans, both Austria and Russia wanted to expand their power there, so their interests clashed, and Germany had to decide between Russia and Austria
it chose Austria, bc Austria would be the junior partner in this alliance, whereas if it chose Russia, Germany might've well ended up as the junior partner itself
Russia was too big, too powerful, Germany needed to push it back while it still could
>>
>>12359921
Thats chimpout you speak of was just a tiny excuse, in reality powers on picrel had tons of social, political, and most importantly economic reasons to go to war with each other.
>>
>>12366765
They also had tons of social, political, and most importantly economic reasons NOT to go to war with each other.
Many thought that war would not break out since Europe was so tightly intertwined together that they only had to lose from a war. Why on earth would Germany attack its largest trade partners? They had become so prosperous through industrialization and trade, not by invading its neighbors. It would be senseless to start now.
But it happened.
>>
File: ww1.jpg (157 KB, 645x632)
157 KB
157 KB JPG
>>12360129
>Russia backs Serbia and invades Austria
Didnt happen
Russia got officially involved when the German nation attacked

>France backs Russia and attacks Germany (this would have happened if Germany didn't pre-empt the French)
No one really knows if it would have happened
But it definitly wouldnt have if Germany didn't "pre-empt" Russia
>>
>>12367387
>German nation attacked
didn't attack tho, just declared war due to the mobilization
>>
File: 1619913750170.png (71 KB, 1200x1000)
71 KB
71 KB PNG
>>12366733
Why was Serbia so vital to Russia? Why didn't Germany simply control Austrian autism and keep an alliance between all 3? Russia + AH + Germany would be unstoppable, they could provide each other with whatever they wanted. Besides the Kaiser and everyone else assumed A-H would collapse sooner rather than later anyway.

Pic somewhat related
>>
>>12366733
>G*rms be like
>haha we will stomp them
>but then like
>death of two empires
LMAO
>>
>>12367532
Russian empire died too. France became so traumatized it couldn't go for a piss without asking permission from Britain first. And Britain went from the world's biggest lender to the greatest debtor. Everyone lost.
>>
>>12367532
Too bad that Germany stomped Russia in WW1. And it's the death of three empires.
Too bad that today Germany rules over Europe and slavtard nations beg for money all the time.



Delete Post: [File Only] Style:
[Disable Mobile View / Use Desktop Site]

[Enable Mobile View / Use Mobile Site]

All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective parties. Images uploaded are the responsibility of the Poster. Comments are owned by the Poster.