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>tfw we live in a society
Did I just summarize the entirety of Marxist thought?
>>
>>12107553
Cops are niggers. Lumpen are a reactionary class. Cops are lumpen
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>>12107553
Not quite. But that sentence is still an order of magnitude more sophisticated than liberalism.
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>>12107559
>implying Marx isn't just an ultraliberal
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>>12107561
Marx didn't actually say anything, he plagiarized a lot. Marxism is just libs, Marx himself didn't care.
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>>12107553
we live AS society
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>>12107561
>>12107562
Are you american?
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>>12107553
We live in a class society. How about that?
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>>12107580
Classless societies don't exist. All societies are class societies, so your statement is redundant.
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>>12107565
Cops are niggers
>>12107580
Marx didn't say that. Libs argue a hot dog stand owner is a higher class position than a doctor
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>>12107553
you just summarized all political thought
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>>12107582
Every society is classless because cops are niggers. You are a worthless retard like the rest.
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>>12107588
Are you mad I didn't acknowledge you? Your comment was so dumb it wasn't worth replying to, thats why I didn't respond
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>>12107582
you can say it because marx said it
and >>12107580 pointed it out
you just "want to look smart" contrarian faggot
>All societies are class societies
not in marxian way
marx talks about industrial society
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>>12107599
>not in marxian way
I don't give a fuck about the marxian way because Marx was wrong lmfao
All societies have classes
All societies have inequality
All societies have misery
There's nothing unique about "Marxian" "class society". It's just a dogma fabricated for Marxist doctrine
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>>12107604
Obviously no society has any class and cops are niggers.
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>>12107604
you're hysterical trannysaurus who said nothing valuable
>because Marx was wrong
where?
>All societies have classes
classes of what kind?
you mistook hierarchy with class
marx not denies hierarchy not class as abstract term but talks about specific classes as owners and workers
>All societies have inequality
marx not denies it
but not all societies has developed property institution and segregation on owners and workers
>All societies have misery
marx not denies it

>There's nothing unique about "Marxian" "class society".
i can't say if anybody before him looked on the society the way he did
before hegel here even was no proper ground for idea of class in the way marx use this term

>dogma fabricated for Marxist doctrine
it's just a discription
you can make your own
but as i can see all nonsense like "gender = class" is just a seething capitalist cope from pure impotence to disprove marxian model
and you seems to be such seething faggot
>>
>>12107652
>because Marx was wrong
He didn't mention this.
>>All societies have classes
Incels vs slayers
>you mistook hierarchy with class
No
>All societies have inequality
Correct
>marx not denies it
Irrelevant .
>i can't say if anybody before him looked on the society the way he did
before hegel here even was no proper ground for idea of class in the way marx use this
Yes there was sociology.
>>dogma fabricated for Marxist doctrine
>it's just a discription
>>
>>12107663
gibberish
take your pills
>>
>>12107670
Cops are niggers
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>>12107670
Nice bot reply.
>>
>>12107672
either group shows more adequacy than you
>>
>>12107652
>where?
Labor theory of value, historical view of history, etc.
>classes of what kind?
Guilds, warrior classes, chieftains, priests. There are many many types of classes
>marx not denies hierarchy not class as abstract term but talks about specific classes as owners and workers
Redefining a term to make it fit your theory isn't good science. In fact it's circular logic.
>Marxian class society exists because marxism is the exploitation of the worker class by the owners and classes are either workers or owners as defined by Marx therefore Marxian class society exists
You know there were slave classes as far as back as 2500 BC right? Is that suddenly a 'proto-bourgeois' Marxian class society? LOL
>before hegel here even was no proper ground for idea of class in the way marx use this term
You're saying medieval serfs weren't aware of their status?
>it's just a discription
>you can make your own
No, it's a dogma that is not grounded in evidence. Hence why we're here arguing about the semantics of Marxist dogma and doctrine
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>>12107683
Pathetic weak parasite.
>>
>>12107687
i'm not the one who's foaming with impotent rage
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>>12107672
Cops are based.
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>>12107685
>historical view of history,
Scientific* sorry
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>>12107685
>abor theory of value, historical view of history, etc.
?
>Guilds, warrior classes, chieftains, priests. There are many many types of classes
This is not wow fucking retard
>Redefining a term to make it fit your theory isn't good science. In fact it's circular logic.
Same

>You know there were slave classes as far as back as 2500 BC right? Is that suddenly a 'proto-bourgeois' Marxian class society? LOL
So what?
>You're saying medieval serfs weren't aware of their status?
Yeah only fucking retards believe that.

>No, it's a dogma that is not grounded in evidence. Hence why we're here arguing about the semantics of Marxist dogma and doctrine
How is there no evidence of your argument requires it?
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>>12107694
Then kill cops or whatever, I mean you're just wasting time. It's not really impressive to shitpost on 4chan.
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>>12107702
>This is not wow fucking retard
Guilds literally "own the means of production" you retarded faggot lmfao
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>>12107553
it's more like
>we live in an economy
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>>12107705
Still not world of Warcraft you fucking neckbeard
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>>12107553
>Did I just summarize the entirety of Marxist thought?
The opposite. You summarized childish position Marx was objecting to ("if society does something my morals do not agree with, I must throw a shit fit").

Marx was closer to Bane (who is a caricature of Robespierre), but even this resemblance is surface only. For obvious reasons, American comics never discuss Marxism.

The closest you'd ever get would be this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjogCytzX0s
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>>12107553
You will never have a communist utopia.
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>so what?
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>>12107709
>Still not world of Warcraft you fucking neckbeard
lol, you don't know what a guild is do you
>>
>>12107713
Marx's observation that life is difficult and living beings must struggle to survive is so banal that it's laughable that it's considered insightful. The notion that humans should try to improve their lot being Marxian is also laughable. You really think humans throughout history and pre-history haven't been actively trying to improve their lives? So silly
>>
>>12107685
>Labor theory of value
value can't be less than labor costs
it is question of physical matter
no basis = no super construction
>Guilds, warrior classes, chieftains, priests. There are many many types of classes
seething cope even after i wrote about it
pathetic
you lost here
>Redefining a term to make it fit your theory isn't good science. In fact it's circular logic.
seething cope even after i wrote about it
pathetic
>You know there were slave classes as far as back as 2500 BC right?
here was no such word as your beloved term "class" 2500 BC
>You're saying medieval serfs weren't aware of their status?
they doubtfully used term class or understood it in marxian way or understood old complexity of feodal society they lived in where they was or dependent or even owned by their masters = wasn't free and hired for work proletarians

>No, it's a dogma that is not grounded in evidence. Hence why we're here arguing about the semantics of Marxist dogma and doctrine
take pills tranny
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>>12107750
>value can't be less than labor costs
Wrong.
>>
>>12107704
you first
>>
>>12107759
I did.
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>>12107750
Please explain to me how a guild is not a class.
>here was no such word as your beloved term "class" 2500 BC
lol
>they doubtfully used term class or understood it in marxian way or understood old complexity of feodal society they lived in where they was or dependent or even owned by their masters = wasn't free and hired for work proletarians
lol
>b-b-but class can only mean things I want it to mean!! Guilds controlling manufacturing or warrior-classes controlling the production of wheat aren't classes because I said so and Marx said so and if it isn't true then Marxism doesn't work!!!! waaaahhhhh
>>
>>12107754
you can't dumping for eternity
you can't work if you can't sustain life
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>>12107763
Cops are niggers. Also they are a class /thread
>>
>>12107763
>lol
i correct =you lose
>lol
i correct =you lose
>>
>>12107768
Please explain to me how a guild is not a class.
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>>12107792
Cops are a guild
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>>12107792
same as gender
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>>12107801
yes that is correct
>>12107804
If you consider them workers but not owners of their labor in your Le Marxian sense, then yes
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>>12107813
Cops are a class?
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>>12107817
Cops are niggers
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>>12107822
jannies take a note
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>>12107817
Police are a class of society with a specific role. Their labor is enforcement of the law. Because of powerful police unions, The police class owns their own labor
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>>12107835
No cops are niggers.
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>>12107744
You seem to have dedicated your life to fighting strawmen.

Let me provide tl;dr from Marx himself:
>> The general conclusion at which I arrived and which, once reached, became the guiding principle of my studies can be summarised as follows.
>> In the social production of their existence, men inevitably enter into definite relations, which are independent of their will, namely relations of production appropriate to a given stage in the development of their material forces of production. The totality of these relations of production constitutes the economic structure of society, the real foundation, on which arises a legal and political superstructure and to which correspond definite forms of social consciousness.
>> The mode of production of material life conditions the general process of social, political and intellectual life. It is not the consciousness of men that determines their existence, but their social existence that determines their consciousness.
>>
>>12107849
Did Marx say anything about cops
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>>12107853
Sure. They are clearly part of superstructure, and not part of basis. I.e. hired held of capitalists.

In the sense of "class" they can be considered equivalent to petit-bourgeois (individual producers; simple commodity production).
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>>12107859
Then why do cops just act in a zombielike way and disproportionately kill capitalists controlling for density
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>>12107553
Society lives in us!
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>>12107849
Lol yes, even if we take as a given that what Marx wrote is true (it's not) then the complexity of modern societies would require the inclusion of more classes. Where would the police exist in Marxian class society? They have no relation to production but are not owners of the means of production either. Marxists' antagonism towards the petty bourgeoisie is symptomatic of their deep misunderstanding of class.

And again, Marx is also just wrong. This model Marx created is silly and was most applicable if we are being cheritable at the very beginnings of agricultural society.

Again, my point still stands. Marxist "insight" is just
>uhh poor people have poor consciousness and rich people have rich consciousness and this makes life awfully hard xD
and again, even including 'consciousness' in a material theory is laughable
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>>12107878
>again, even including 'consciousness' in a material theory is laughable
Marx was literally a try hard opposed to actual materialists like Malthus
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>>12107866
>disproportionately kill capitalists controlling for density
wat
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>>12107885
>Marx was literally a try hard opposed to actual materialists like Malthus
>his whole pseudo-scientific theory is called historical materialism
>>
>>12107890
>>
>>12107878
>Where would the police exist in Marxian class society?
service for ruling class
it is like school age questions
every ex soc-block person has this knowledge in the same level as earth is round
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>>12107910
But cops aren't part of the government. They just steal people's cars. They only defend property accidentally.
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>>12107878
>Lol yes, even if we take as a given that what Marx wrote is true (it's not)
Do you admit to arguing with strawmen or not?
Because if you don't, then there is nothing to discuss.
Because if you do, then present points that you are - apparently - arguing with. I'm not going to spend a second trying to deduce what nonsense you had ascribed to Marx this time.

>>12107898
Ah. Schizo.
>>
>>12107916
Ah. Schizo.
>>
>>12107910
>service for ruling class
Where does that fit into your worker-owner class society? Your theory is incoherent and should be discarded
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>>12107918
Cops are just a gang. They're not even a real thing. Cops are niggers.
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>>12107916
>saying what Marx argued is wrong is a strawman
kek
His understanding of class is wrong. His understanding of production is wrong. His understanding of consciousness and production is bizarro metaphysical garbage and irrelevant
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>>12107912
>government=/=ruling class
>>12107918
in the same place where factory security
seethe more tranny
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>>12107924
There's no reason to defend other people's property.
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>>12107924
>in the same place where factory security
And where is that? Does factory security not labor?
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>>12107929
It's like asking if stormtroopers are labor. Yes the zombie horde that dies defending a strip mall is "labor". Doesn't make it any less pathetic.
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>>12107933
>Doesn't make it any less pathetic.
That's not really relevant. It just shows how the Marxian understanding of class is incoherent
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>>12107928
exactly
socialist militia defend socialist order from perpetrators
>>12107929
not essential labor
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>>12107939
Your mom is.
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>>12107941
>socialist militia defend socialist order from perpetrators
So then cops are leftwing. Which conclusively proves the point stated in the op: that cops are niggers.
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>>12107923
> His understanding of class is wrong.
Can you tell me his understanding of class? You can't.
> His understanding of production is wrong.
Can you tell me his understanding of production? You can't.
> His understanding of consciousness and production is bizarro metaphysical garbage and irrelevant
If you don't know what you are talking about, what worth does your noise have? None.
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>>12107948
>So then cops are leftwing
not in capitalist society
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>>12107952
> Can you tell me his understanding of class? You can't.
That cops are class
> Can you tell me his understanding of production? You can't
That cops produce or are produced by niggers
> If you don't know what you are talking about, what worth does your noise have? None.
Cops
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>>12107954
Yes they are, example
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>>12107952
>Can you tell me his understanding of class? You can't.
>Can you tell me his understanding of production? You can't.
Who cares? He's wrong. The definitions you work with are cicular. Anything that disproves his theory of class actually isn't a class according to his theory. Anything that contradicts how production informs class in his theory is actually non-essential labor, and the goalposts are moved. It's pseudoscience and false. If I demonstrate how his understanding of class or production are false you will simply say that those are not actually class or production according to his theory. It's intellectually bankrupt and shouldn't be engaged with seriously to begin with. Marxist theory cant even explain the petty bourgoisie and can only seethe about how they are class traitors and stooges for the mega bourgeoisie
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>>12107987
Virtually all labor is nonessential, even in marxs time there were tons of pointless union and guild jobs that were legally protected.
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>>12107987
>Who cares? He's wrong.
You can't even tell what he is wrong about.
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>>12107956
>socialist society
if you would understand dialectic you would know that if you want to move from A to B you need to start from A
china's condition is A+ where society has socialist government which controls police and such control used to keep process of transformation going
your argumentation basically analog of Achilles vs turtle story "here's always a little bit being left"
according to you society is not socialist until it's obviously socialist but socialism is exactly society which is going thru transformation
socialist is A+ only
not A - capitalist
not B - communist
>>
>>12107999
>You can't even tell what he is wrong about.
Labor theory of value, his historical materialism has been demonstrably proven wrong, his understanding of class in society, etc.
Cope about it
>>
>>12108031
Buzzwords. You don't know what LTV is, nor HistMat, nor class.
>>You can't even tell what he is wrong about.
>>
>>12108006
>if you would understand dialectic you would know that if you want to move from A to B you need to start from A
and yet neither the USSR nor China, which both adopted Marxism, started from point A. So Marxist dialectic of wrong lmaoooo
>>
>>12108049
from what they started?
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>>12107563
That would be ideal.
>>
>>12108046
value is not derived from the labor of production
historical materialism has not manifested as marx predicted
marxist class fails to explain the existence of groups such as the petty bourgeoisie or the managerial class who do not own the means of production and yet cannot be considered proletarian, and thus marxist theory of class is incoherent and bunk

QQ moar. Read something besides Marx lel
>>
>>12108058
both were pre-industrial societies
>>
>>12107922
Prisons are very real and hard to escape.
>>
>>12108060
Did we have the discussion about strawmen in this thread?
Yes, we did.

Please, loop back to: >>12107849
>You seem to have dedicated your life to fighting strawmen.
>>
>>12108065
>pre-industrial
underdeveloped =/= pre-industrial
pre-industrial cannot produce forvard level technological product an masse ie "on industrial scale"
russian empire produced full specter of military tech mainly domestically with a fewer import
pre-industrial country wouldn't stand a year against any european (therefore industrial) country
situation of china was more backwards but still Achilles vs turtle
+ you'll need to ignore aiming to A for development purpose by china
you cant call it A it is still A+ because party can make decisions on private property and use of it in socialistic purpose
as some american gun enthusiast said "we doesn't really have a gun right if cop can legally kill us just because he suspects that we're armed "
>>
>>12108087
you're just stupid and don't understand marx's points m8. Even the passage you quote has incoherences that disprove itself. In fact, your passage is irrelevant to the points I raised which shows you don't really understand it. You really have to be a stupid cunt if you think debunking core tenets of Marxism is fighting a strawman kek. Quoting Marx like the bible doesn't save you from its inconsistencies you midwit. That text fails to account for how classes which don't relate to production even form in society. If classes are formed by their relationship with the means of production, then classes like the petty bourgeoisie, managers, and police, should simply be an impossibility and should not exist. But they do. So even your short passage is woefully inadequate.

I do love how you literally cite dogma just like the catholics do tho, really drives home how retarded Marxism is
>>
>>12108106
>pre-industrial cannot produce forvard level technological product an masse ie "on industrial scale"
>russian empire produced full specter of military tech mainly domestically with a fewer import
>pre-industrial country wouldn't stand a year against any european (therefore industrial) country
Yes, that is why Lenin's whole doctrine emphasized mobilizing the agricultural peasant class rather than the proletariat right? Retard
>>
>>12108116
>Achilles vs turtle again
will you ignore existing domestic industry and proletarian class and pretend that only agrarian majority is entire entire thing?
more, industry competitive on the first rank level



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