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Why did the Irish language decline even further after Ireland became independent? I understand not being able to expand the language across the whole island, but not even being able to preserve the pockets that were still there? They might as well have just stayed part of Britain desu.
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>>12100139
There is no practical reason to learn the Irish language. There are plenty of practical reasons not to deal with the British.
>>
Because Irish people decided they didn't consider it that important. Irish language was genuinely important for de Valera and his generation, and was a crucial part of their understanding of what Irish nationalism should be. However, it just wasn't as important to the next generation, who wanted to focus more on prosperity and modernization rather than pure nationalism. de Valera's successors, Sean Lemass and Jack Lynch, de-emphasized Irish and it went from there. Not to say that Irish has been abandoned but it's just a matter of secondary importance to people in how they understand what it means to be Irish and how important it is to them.
>They might as well have just stayed part of Britain desu.
I mean that's just stupid as hell.
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>>12100139
Irishfag here

There are a lot of factors, but it's important to remember that the Gaelic culture of which Irish was the language basically collapsed in the Elizabethan era. The Flight of the Earls meant that the aristocracy got entirely replaced with Bongs (which is still the case today), and without their patronage the native Irish art forms like sung poetry vanished because no one could afford to pay people to learn, perform and compose such highly complex works. They still exist in the form of Sean-Nos singing but its a much simpler art form than what existed previously.

The famine then produced mass poverty and forced people to learn english for work and/or emigrate. Because the country's economy was in ruins (a situation that persisted well after independence) parents started only speaking English to their children so they'd have more opportunities in life. The new state attempt to halt this but the decline was already in motion.

It might have worked if they had banned English in public usage or something from Day 1 but the damage was done by that point. The government kept it on life support by making it mandatory in schools, funding Irish radio (and eventually TV) etc., and founding Gaelscoils, schools in which English is forbidden and only Irish can be used (still a very popular option to this day).

The mandatory Irish backfired a bit because now people associate it with being forced to learn it in school, but it did keep it alive.

The number of second-language speakers is growing but as a first language its in trouble, the reason being that there are zero jobs or opportunites in the West where it's most spoken, Dublin is the only real option for a successful career as a wagie (maybe Cork at a stretch). Consequently there's nothing really holding younger people to those communities anymore
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>inb4 ir*sh spammers
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>>12100997
Oh also, the various invasions and plantations essentially meant that major towns developed with no tradition of speaking Irish whatsoever. For reason in native Irish culture we never developed big population centres, but lots of smaller ones.

The normans, vikings and bongs founded most of the big population centres. Consequently somewhere like Dublin may have had some native Irish dialect but was basically an English-speaking town.

Youghal in Cork is a good example of towns explicitly set up for Bongs, so English was always the language. Problem is when you have a lot of these it tends to change the language used for commerce and industry, which didn't help
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>>12101043
>Colbert
>Oliver
>Kimmell

Not Irish names
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>>12100139
>map

This is missing a few such as Muskerry in Cork I think
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>>12100139
Because Celtoids are sub humans
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>>12100139
Celts are naturally submissive and made to be conquered and assimilated
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>>12101043
None of the people in the Pic are Irish they're all Americans. Is that one of your Jewish websites trying to scapegoat Americans of Irish ancestry for what the Yids have done to America? I don't think anyone is buying it.
>>12101211
The Celts are 19th century invention. There was no Celtic race and the peoples who were called Celts were just generic western Europeans and are the British, Irish, French, Germans of today. No one in Ireland calls themselves a Celt or anything like that so maybe you should abandon your schizo seething because you're only seething against Celts because you think Irish = Celt and by attacking the Celts you are attacking us but you're wasting your time and you are most likely descended from people who are known today as Celts.
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>>12102029
>None of the people in the Pic are Irish they're all Americans.
Americans are g a race and yes they are of Irish descent, not German, Norwegian nor English, but IRISH
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>>12102037
are not*
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>>12102037
>>12102051
The people in that Pic are Americans and their mutted ancestry doesn't matter. And as someone has pointed out none of them have Irish surnames.

>Colbert
>Oliver
>Kimmell
>Biden

Not one of those surnames are Gaelic.
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>>12100997

This makes it more plausible how English overtook whatever language the Britons spoke after the Anglo saxons arrived, rather than genocide. We know that the English and Scotts didn't (succesfully) genocide the Irish, they just dominated them so hard that they lost most of their culture. I imagine the saxons did that same thing to the Britons.
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>>12102029
>No one in Ireland calls themselves a Celt or anything like that
I disagree with most of your post but this is true. Of all the people in these islands it is the English who are most obsessed with Celticism and identifying and classifying the traits of their neighbours and themselves as Celtic. For all the caricature of the Irish as obsessed with an imagined Celtic past the word 'Celtic' has never been especially important to Irish self-identification and national identity whereas English accounts of the Irish, Scottish Gaels and Welsh in the 19th century bring up the Celts again and again. The English project their fascination with things Celtic onto their Celtic neighbours, and they assume the nationalism of the Celtic peoples is larp inspired by something like their own Celtomania

>The Celts are 19th century invention. There was no Celtic race and the peoples who were called Celts were just generic western Europeans and are the British, Irish, French, Germans
I disagree. There are clear structural parallels between the societies and cultures of the medieval insular Celts and those of the continent as described by the classical authors. The affinity of medieval Gaelic Ireland with pre-Roman Gaul has been recognised for centuries.

>>12101211
The Celts who know think they're English perhaps. Of all the peoples in these isles the English are the most conquered and mutted.
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>>12102105
>>12102712
Swarthy celts aren't white, and naturally bow down to their Germanic Anglo Saxon masters
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>>12102793
Swarthy Celts? The Scottish who are Celtic don't look swarthy to me. Scottish and Irish are one and the same and are pale and not swarthy because English /Anglos are the only swarthy people in the isles. All Scottish people are technically Irish
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>>12102793
There are lots of things you can make fun of the Irish for but not for being submissive or acquiescent. The Irish fought against British rule for eight centuries and eventually achieved independence, triggering the collapse of the British Empire in the process. That isn't a meme.

Nineteenth century British racism against the Irish was based on the idea that they were inherently rebellious and intractable, not that they were inherently slavish and obedient.

If anybody in Europe naturally bows to anyone else it's the Anglo-Saxons to their Norman masters.
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>>12100139
Because for most Irish 'nationalists', Irish nationalism was just a code word for Catholic chauvinism. They either didn't care about the Irish language or were actively hostile to it as a provincial backwater dialect that made them look like a bunch of hicks. Ironically genuine Irish nationalism was begun and most heavily concentrated in the Protestant community, but a handful of amateur enthusiasts from a different class and religion to the majority of the population weren't ever going to have much effect.
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>>12100997
This is semi-true. The native Gaelic aristocracy didn't collapse during the Elizabethan era; outside Ulster there were still plenty of areas where the Gaelic and Old English (Gaelicized Normans) lords remained strong at the beginning of the 17th century. The Flight of the Earls more marked the point where the English were able to really impose central authority on the Gaelic nobility. It was the Irish Confederate Wars and the Jacobite war that forced the native aristocracy to choose between either exile or conversion and assimilation.

The end of the Gaelic speaking aristocracy did damage the old bardic traditions, but Gaelic art still remained in the form of folk songs. So although it had an affect, I don't think I'd list it as a leading cause.

Nor did the famine suddenly make everyone poor and force them to learn English. What OP's map doesn't show is that there was a long period of bilingualism. English was already spoken widely in the 18th century, it just existed alongside Gaelic.

Leaning English was a multi-generational process: first Gaelic-speaking parents would teach their children English for economic reasons, who would become Gaelic speakers with English as a second language, used when they had to go into town or talk to passing merchants and tradesmen. Then when the number of English speakers reached critical mass, children would switch to being English first language speakers with Gaelic as a second language, using it at home to talk to the older generation. Then the older generation died off, and the younger generation simply didn't bother speaking Gaelic with their kids. Economics played a part, but it was more just apathy.

>>12101053
>in native Irish culture we never developed big population centres, but lots of smaller ones.
This was one of the most important reasons Gaelic died out. It could have survived English plantations, but the problem was the economic centres in most parts of Ireland were English-speaking.
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>>12102860
> The Irish fought against British rule for eight centuries
lol fuck off, the Irish fought for the English crown more often than they fought against it.

English rule started when the Irish aristocracy submitted voluntarily to Henry II in the hope that he'd protect their lands from Norman raids. English rule was re-established in the Tudor period because Irish lords were happy to bend the knee to the king in return for titles and recognition of their position in their various quarrels against their relatives (which every single Irish lord had a bunch of). The whole reason the English were able to conquer and hold Ireland while spending most of their energy against France (and most of the rest against Scotland) was because the Irish didn't really have a problem with English kings and were more interested in fighting amongst themselves.

In both the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution, the Irish fought FOR the legitimate King of England against the rebels. After the defeat of James II there wasn't another serious rebellion in Ireland until after WW1; the one or two attempts were embarrassing failures that fizzled out without gaining any wide support. Ireland was peaceful from 1800 to 1916, by which point the popularity of violent rebellion was so low that the people of Dublin spat on the participants of the Easter Rising.

>Nineteenth century British racism against the Irish was based on the idea that they were inherently rebellious and intractable
Actually, insofar as a general opinion on the matter, it was based on the idea that they were inherently drunk and stupid. But the British weren't really racist against Irish people, apart from a few outliers who viewed categorizing things according to race as more 'scientific'. It was more regional prejudices, like Londoners held against the uncultured swine up north and Northerners held against the effete pansies down south. All legal discrimination was anti-Catholic.
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>>12102852
>scottish
>celtic
AHAHAHAAHAH
The scots are germanic
Look at the purest celts in the british isles, the welsh and the cornish, and they're incredibly dark and swarthy you dumb mutt
Tacitus even described the celts as swarthy and iberian
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>>12100997
>The mandatory Irish backfired a bit because now people associate it with being forced to learn it in school, but it did keep it alive.
This reminds me of what Israel did to revive Hebrew as a language, kids complaining and all, only theirs succeeded.
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>>12102852
We have some native swarthoids here. It's not that uncommon
t, Swarthoid Scot
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>>12100139

It seems the more "independent" these nations get the more soulless and international they become.
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>>12102852
>all scottish people are technically Irish

Edinburgh doesn't strike me as very gaelic sounding. Also please go outside, there are swarthy people from Wales, Scotland and Ireland it's a genetic trait that comes from the Western Hunter Gatherers, the Romans themselves mention that the Silures tribe was swarthy in appearance.
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>>12103231
>>12103197
>>12102852
>>12103141
>average anglo Germanic vs Average celtic swart irishman
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>>12103141
Scots aren't Germanic they're Irish & Picts aka Celts. You're probably a swarthy Celt yourself. I bet you definitely are and will assume you are until proven otherwise.

And Ben Franklin said Germanic were swarthy so there's that too. English people are quite swarthy. >>12103231
What was Edinburgh called before it was taken over by English? >>12103231
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>>12100139
the bloody english
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>>12103434
Scots are Germanic you delusional mutt
Disregarding the highlands (which have germanic blood and are hardly purely celtic) lowland scots are primarily of Germanic blood
the only "swarthy" english you will find are those with irish blood or those in cornwall and out west
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>>12103434
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>>12100139
The efforts to revitalise the Irish language were operating under the assumption that was pretty common at the time that national boundaries were synonymous with linguistic boundaries, the Irish were different, so they should speak their own tongue, overtime this view has become less prominent, so Gaelic goes from an essential proof that Ireland is a nation distinct from England/Britain, to a second language at best, as the the economic benefits of speaking English present themselves.

Basically, after a generation or two independent, the fact that Ireland was a distinct nation was obvious, and didn't need to be reinforced with linguistic barriers between it and her former overlord.
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>>12100139
Irish are already mixed with significant English ancestry and DNA from Great Britain, on top of extra Scandinavian Norse patrilineal DNA more so than most of England received.

They are still culturally and linguistically Anglos, no matter how much they deny it.
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>>12100139
At this rate they're going to need one of these.
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>>12103619
Tl:dr

Scots are most certainly Celts and there's no disputing it. You're most likely a Celt yourself too.

Russell Brand or Rowan Atkinson for example are swarthy Englishmen without a drop of Celtic blood and have Anglo Saxon surnames. English people are pretty much the most swarthy people in these isles but the south of England has a pretty nice climate so a lot tan but are fairly swarthy anyway. That's English people aren't Anglo Saxons though they're just turbo mutts and you'll never find a 100% Anglo Saxon in Britain because they don't exist.
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>>12103669
This
Welsh kept their language for so long because the English didn't really give a shit about wales after they conquered it and as a result they remained pure
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>>12103619
Both western Lowland Scots and Irish from Dublin are at similar levels of Celtic to Anglo-Saxon DNA, but they are of majority Celtic stock rather than continental/Germanic.
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>>12103680
Cope Celtoid larper
The only pure celtic nations are wales and cornwall. You will never find a pure celt in ireland or scotland.
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>>12102105
There's a very specific thing about English though - it has very little Briton influence. Even the Cumbrian dialect, which logically had to have the most contact with old Briton speakers has like... sheep counting numerals going from 1-5 and maybe some of their peculiarity in choosing suffixes comes from it. Perhaps. And it's not the case that the English have never taken in any foreign element into their language - we of course know about French and Latin, but there's also influence from various German dialects and old norse or in fact, Irish. And what's worse is that at least theoretically there should've been *some* "pollution" coming from contact with Welsh(itself descendant of old Brittonic), yet nothing of this kind shows up. Old English, Middle English, doesn't matter, there's nothing.
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>>12103669
How are Irish people culturally English? What English cultural things do Irish do? Are the niggers and Pakis that live in Britain Angkos too seeing as how they speak English and are culturally English.
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>>12103703
>Are the niggers and Pakis that live in Britain Angkos too seeing as how they speak English and are culturally English.
Irish government things that about their own niggers and pakis.
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>>12103680
>>12103687
Scotland is a Germanic nation, with Scots being a purer form of english than english itself
"celtic identity" in scotland came as a result of 19th century upper class romanticists. It is a myth
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>>12103703
They are historically British.

English vs Gaelic is something to get you off of sectarian divisions, when in fact probably plenty of Old Catholic English settlers and Irish Anglicans for whatever reason adopted Irish identities.
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>>12103690
Imagine being an Autist who never fucks up about "mug Germanic" blood and being from Scotland and calling anyone else a larper. You're the biggest fucking larper here and have yet to produce a DNA test backing up your Germanic schizo bullshit. By the way you should just stop seething on the Celts too because no one in Ireland identify as a Celt or gives a fuck about them and you seething against Celts here everyday in the hopes of an Irish man coming into any of those threads you create so you can seethe against them is pure cringe, autistic and pathetic. All the time you're seething about Celts and as soon as anyone says anything to you you just go into a turbo autistic spiral of Germanic Genes bullshit like the images you posted and I didn't read. I've seen you btfo here manys a time with your autistic Germanic cringe.
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>>12103018
>lol fuck off, the Irish fought for the English crown more often than they fought against it.

You are not wrong strictly speaking in certain points but you are very misleading in all. Because of the coincidence between the Stuart and Irish causes in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries the Irish were fighting both a nationalistic war against the English and Scots while fighting for the legitimist cause of the crown.

In the 18th and 19th century the Irish were living in an extraordinarily militarised security state structured in every particular to prevent an Irish Catholic rebellion. Ireland had more police per capita than Prussia in the 19th century and many more troops deployed than India, not to mention the close integration between state forces and paramilitary pro-government militia. Nonetheless, in addition to the Whiteboy and Tory disturbances of the 18th century, there was the 1798 rebellion (by all accounts a major rebellion and an existential threat to the British state by virtue of the French dimension), Emmet's rebellion in 1803, the Rockite Rebellion of 1822, the Tithe War 1830-1836, the Young Ireland Rebellion of 1848, the Fenian Rising of 1867, and the Land War of 1879-1882, not to mention the Fenian bombing campaigns and invasions of Canada.

You are probably correct that strictly speaking more Irishmen fought for the crown than against, but that's because in the centuries of population growth Ireland was structurally governed so as to funnel the male population into the army.

>In both the English Civil War and the Glorious Revolution, the Irish fought FOR the legitimate King of England against the rebels.

This is true, but their Loyalism was of a distinctly nationalist variety. The Irish considered the Stuarts Gaels and therefore Irishmen. The period from the accession of James I to the failure of the '45 was one in which there was a happy coincidence between the national sentiment of the Irish and that of the legitimist party.
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>>12103018
>The whole reason the English were able to conquer and hold Ireland while spending most of their energy against France (and most of the rest against Scotland) was because the Irish didn't really have a problem with English kings and were more interested in fighting amongst themselves.

The English were not able to conquer and hold Ireland until the Tudor period at the earliest. Ireland was still not fully conquered by the Normans at the time of the Reformation. A condition of war existed between the Irish and the English/Normans until the Tudor period, not a condition of conquest and subjugation. The actual conquest of Ireland by Elizabeth was an extraordinarily bloody and protracted affair and ranks as the greatest military commitment of the Elizabethan state, far above the Dutch revolt.

A proverb preserved in the State Papers in the 16th century gives as a list of three immortal things "the pride of France, the treason of England and the war in Ireland".
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>Bonjour, serviteurs Anglais, regardez, je suis construit en pierre
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>>12104227
>This is true, but their Loyalism was of a distinctly nationalist variety. The Irish considered the Stuarts Gaels and therefore Irishmen. The period from the accession of James I to the failure of the '45 was one in which there was a happy coincidence between the national sentiment of the Irish and that of the legitimist party.

The Irish did not consider the Stuarts to be Gaels and throwing around the term nationalist in an era before nationalism doesn't help. However you are right that the Jacobitism of the Irish was not out of loyalism but out of a desire to gain toleration for Catholics and also to remove the settlers' power in Ireland.
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>>12103018
>Ireland was peaceful from 1800 to 1916, by which point the popularity of violent rebellion was so low that the people of Dublin spat on the participants of the Easter Rising.

The Irish were cautious regarding rebellion in light of the utterly catastrophic consequences of past defeats, not because they had any fondness for English rule. The dichotomy between constitutional nationalism and physical-force nationalism was not real. The Fenians were in favour of the constitutional work of the Home Rulers and the support base of the Redmondites were often sympathisers with the Fenians. The Irish who wanted to untangle the knot of their subjugation by constitutional means were usually sympathetic to those who would cut the knot with the sword. The Home Rule support base who went Sinn Féin after 1916 changed their vehicle, not their ideology.
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>>12104227
That angloanon doesn't know about the widespread anti-irish racism inherent. Read the letters of victorian artists like
Charles Kingsley, the people themselves.

>VisitingCounty Sligo, Ireland, he wrote a letter to his wife fromMarkree Castlein 1860: “I am haunted by the human chimpanzees I saw along that hundred miles of horrible country [Ireland] … to see white chimpanzees is dreadful; if they were black one would not see it so much, but their skins, except where tanned by exposure, are as white as ours.”

Tennyson
>"is a set of rules he laid down, as a celebrity, to his hosts as he made his way from one vampire castle to the next.....: he was not to be spoken to about “Irish distress,” and the window shades of the carriages in which he rode from one Ascendancy manse to another were to be kept completely shut, lest he see the bodies."

>Trevelyan, the official in charge of dealing with the crisis of 1947 said,“The judgement of God sent the calamity to teach the Irish a lesson, that calamity must not be too much mitigated.”
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>>12104323
1847* crisis
Anyway, my point was ethnic hatred is real and you just can't brush it under the table. English really loathed their Irish neighbours and they didn't make a show of this unlike stupid nazis. English were smarter, who burned the files and pretended that it was all jolly well.
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>>12103434
The Scots are a mix of alot of things, the western coast is mostly gaelic and the north eastern region is more pictish, everything else is basically anglo saxon, namely the historically most populous and wealthy region in Scotland.

I brought up Edinburgh's name because the Kings of Scotland initially spoke Gaelic, but then they adopted an anglo saxon language some time in the Dunkeld era adopted what would become Scots. Tell me, do you adopt a majority spoken language in the realm over a minority or do you adopt a minority spoken language over a majority? Genetics also backs up that Lowland Scots are indeed mostly Germanic with naturally some celtic admixture.
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>>12104295
Hallo mein kleiner gallischer Fußschemel
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>>12103724
>>12103731
>>12104349
Scottish independence is a cringe LARP with no basis in reality. Scotsmen have contributed enormously to British civilisation, yet traitors would suggest cutting her intrinsic ties to Britain, of which Scotland would be nothing without.

Scotland is not a Celtic nation; the overwhelming majority of Scots are Lowlanders who are genetically purer Anglo-Saxons than Englishmen themselves. There are more Flemings in Scotland than Celts. The traditional language of Scotland, Lowland Scots, comes from the dialects of English spoken in Scotland since BEFORE the Normans, who never conquered Scotland. This has made Scottish dialects too more Anglo-Saxon than England proper. Even when Normans were eventually invited to Scottish courts, they brought their Anglo-Saxon serfs with them which only increases the existing Anglo-Saxon purity of Scotland.
England has more Celtic genes, Celtic loanwords, Celtic syntax, and in some regions even counting.
The Lowlands are culturally English in every way, they are an extension of the North. The only distinct part of Scotland is the Highlands which have a miniscule population and themselves think nationalists are cringe traitors. Even half the Highland clans were founded by Englishmen, Normans, and Flemings.

Scottish nationalism is a product of self-hating cosmopolitan CBD neds with no culture who dedicate their lives to one-upping England at every opportunity because they would otherwise contribute to Scotland's incredible suicide rate. If these shitcunts declare independence then the British Army, Loyalist militias, and 10,000s of blokes from all over the Commonwealth will come to Scotland to put you down.
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>>12104302
Upon the accession of James I the Irish poets (who naively believed he would be sympathetic to them on account of his mother's Catholicism) wrote bardic poetry praising him according to the conventions of a Gaelic lord and they kept this up in less formal terms for a century afterwards. Dáidbhidh Ó Bruadair for instance wrote elegies for James II which use the same kind of imagery and language as those he was writing for the dispossessed Irish lords who were his friends and patrons. His "Caithréim an Dara Séamuis" treats James II's accession as a triumph over the Gaels and it is written in the style of medieval praise-poems which treat of a Gaelic king's military successes
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>>12104436
*triumph of the Gaels
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>>12104436
Well yeah poets praising rulers and trying to curry favour with them, nothing new here. I don't think the Irish genuinely saw a man who couldn't speak a lick of gaelic and pretty much never set foot in Ireland and was the heir to a dynasty that created the Ulster plantation in the first place as a 'gael' like them.
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>>12104461
Despite feeling deeply betrayed by James II's cowardice at the Boyne and betrayal of his Irish supporters, the Irish were passionately, almost messianically Jacobite in the 18th century. They had forgiven the misdeeds of the Stuarts against them and looked in hope to the future where Catholicism was re-established, Ireland was restored to full dignity as a kingdom and the planters were sent back over the sea. Some Irish Jacobite poetry seems to have a delusional assumption that the Stuart pretenders shared the Irish hatred of the English, despite England of course being seen by the Stuarts as their main kingdom
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>>12104461
>>12104481
The significance of this fact that stands out in light of the fact that unlike in Gaelic Scotland, there is not a single surviving specimen of pro-Williamite or pro-Hanoverian verse in Irish, and there was probably none ever written.

Also significant is that Irish-language political poetry and song from the 18th and 19th centuries, where we hear the voice of the people uncowed by the censor, uniformly treats British defeats abroad with joy, even when the British army in question was largely made up of Catholic Irishmen who could have been the relatives of the authors. While the attitude to the British army was negative, only Irishmen who fought for the British *on irish soil* were seen as unmitigated traitors rather than men doing a job to keep themselves and their families alive. There was a weird attitude to the British army in Ireland historically where joining it was seen as neither something to be proud of nor something to be ashamed of. Irishmen had very few options and joining the army was seen as poor Paddy's lot like building the railroads and infrastructure of British cities. An Irish soldier who died abroad was not seen back home as a man who did his duty and died for his duty, but in the same kind of terms as a navvy who had an industrial accident. This is a complex and subtle topic which requires some explanation.
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>>12104323
>>12104334
This recent thread is a compendium of extracts relevant to that kind of thing:
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/12083479/
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>>12104393
Tl;dr

You will never be an Anglo Saxon or a woman. Cope, seeth and dilate.
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>>12103669
>>12102793

Are Irish people English people in denial or an inferior and separate race of slaves? Make up your minds
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>>12104604
TL;dr
American larping as a celt seething
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>>12103018
>English rule started when the Irish aristocracy submitted voluntarily to Henry II in the hope that he'd protect their lands from Norman raids.

To answer your final unaddressed point, Henry was made Lord of Ireland, not King of Ireland. The Irish under the assumption that the situation would not be enduring found this tolerable because a lord is less than a king and their own system of nobility was distinct enough to make their vassalage to the king of another country a paper reality. The Irish lords lived in a society where the High Kingship rotated between competing dynasties and they took mutability of sovereignty for granted. Acknowledging Henry as "Lord of Ireland" while humiliating was tolerable so long as he didn't infringe on the High Kingship. Ruaidhrí Ó Conchubhar, with whom Henry II signed the Treaty of Windsor, appreciated the treaty as a recognition of his legitimacy as High King in view of the trouble caused by his vassal Diarmaid Mac Murchada, who had brought the Normans over in the first place. As Ruaidhrí saw it, the Treaty of Windsor was two sovereign kings coming to an agreement, looking at the insubordinate Normans under Strongbow and the insubordinate Leinstermen under Diarmaid, and saying "fuck those rebels, let's get the situation in order". The Irish were naive in this respect, as in most cases in which the Irish have trusted the good faith of the English.
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>>12102029
>The Celts are 19th century invention. There was no Celtic race and the peoples who were called Celts were just generic western Europeans and are the British, Irish, French, Germans of today. No one in Ireland calls themselves a Celt or anything like that so maybe you should abandon your schizo seething because you're only seething against Celts because you think Irish = Celt and by attacking the Celts you are attacking us but you're wasting your time and you are most likely descended from people who are known today as Celts
Celts weren't a thing they just spoke a mutually intelligible language along the Atlantic coastline
>>
>>12102852
>scots are celts
No they're germanics
>>
>>12103018
>>12104307
>the irish were cautious
They weren't cautious they were British, and were in the middle of a world war, so treason against the state was looked down on until the execution of the cripple as this was seen as heavy handed
>>
>>12104273
>ireland not conquered
It had autonomy but it was conquered, the war of the roses let the irish petty kings reach practical independence once more until they started supporting english pretenders and so ireland would once more be conquered to prevent it being a rebel base
>>
>>12104481
>>12104508

Yes but your claim is that they believed that the Stuarts were Gaels, what I'm saying is that the Irish were Jacobites because in them they saw salvation for the Irish due to their open Catholicism.

I'd have to see evidence for this disdain for Irish deaths in war on the part of the British military though it certainly would not surprise me, the British military in general was an institution where the sons of nobility and the wealthy went to get commissioned as officers despite having almost no qualifications and then went on to callously throw away their men's lives. This was the general perception of the military, after all there's a reason why there was such a disconnect between the average soldier and their officers and this often resulted in poor morale or outright mutual hatred that continued well into WW2.
>>
>>12103703
They speak English, watch English shows, communicate in English.
>are niggers and pakis
Theyre culturally British yes
>>
>>12104833
The "cripple's" name was James Connolly and also you are wrong. The Irish were renowned, hated and denounced throughout the nineteenth century for their obstinate nationalism, which was considered a defect of their racial character. Their commitment to the war effort in WWI was a consequence of Redmondism, the constitutional nationalist philosophy of John Redmond, who advocated Irish participation in WWI on behalf of the "freedom of small nations" like Belgium as a final goodwill gesture to ensure a smooth transition to devolved government after the war, on good terms with Westminster. This was not because the Irish saw Home Rule as the summit of their dreams, it was because they were a pragmatic and long-oppressed people who thought it was the best they could get it, and the Irish public didn't want to risk it through anything ill-considered or drastic. The initial shock of the Rising was that it jeopardised what the constitutional nationalists had worked for. After the British once again showed their bad faith and hypocrisy in overstepping the line the Irish decided that there was no longer any reason to play by the rules of the British. It was not, as you assume, that the Irish are so sentimental that Irish rebels being executed turned them overnight from content Britons to raving nationalists.
>>
>>12104323
>ree person far away from machinery of government said bad thing about the Irish this means the english MUST have wanted an irish holocaust
>>
>>12104461
>irish bard culture was eliminated after the flight of the earls
>no it survived as shown by James I and II
>NOOOOOO THAT DOESNT COUNT BECAUSE IT JUST DOESNT OKAY
>>
>>12102105
The reason Anglo-Saxon overtook Brythonic is probably due to Latin making Brythonic less of a prestigious language and Anglo-Saxon being able to replace it by being spoken by a warrior aristocracy that just as likely married into British royalty and nobility and actually conquered (See Wessex and Mercia having early kings with clearly Brythonic names)
Modern genetics totally overthrows the genocide/expulsion theories.
It does make one wonder why those became so popular even just like 300 years later, with Bede and whatnot recording them. While Bede in the east may have been more Anglo than Welsh I know many of his Heptarchy countrymen would have had recent British-speaking ancestry.
>>12103698
You know we really can't be 100% on that. There's more to language than etymology. It's very possible some of the unique structural components of English might have a British origin.
>>
>>12104842
The Irish Yorkists who supported Lambert Simnel and Perkin Warbeck were urban Anglo-Normans who lived in terror of the native Irish dwelling in the unconquered countryside.
>>
>>12104889
>the treasonous cripple had a name
Yes, but the man who began his act of treason with two working legs should have been executed all the same
>british once again showed their bad faith and hypocrisy
The only hypocrisy is accepting german arms to fund a revolt when most people are away fighting against the germams
>>
>>12104930
>irish were the bbc's of the early modern period, the english feared these 6'2 well armed warriors so much Elizabeth gave all her soldiers iron helmets
>the english cowered in fear at the mighty irish dwelling in the bogs beyond the forest
You can stop wanking man
>>
>>12104926
We're different anons. As always in Irish history everything is complex. Bardic culture as a formal institution did not survive the Nine Years' War but as an informal tradition it continued to influence Irish literary culture for a long time afterwards. The poetic academies in which hereditary bards studied for years were wiped out after the Flight of the Earls, but poets like Dáibhidh Ó Bruadair wrote in a way that was clearly moulded by the memory of the classical tradition. Ó Bruadair himself is a superb example of the transition in that his verse synthesised the classical syllabic metre of the bardic poets with the assonantal metre of popular folk poetry

>>12104863
Read Vincent Morley's superb The Popular Mind in Eighteenth Century Ireland. One of the most important books with regard to understanding Ireland in that or any other period
>>
>>12104930
>>12104950
The medieval walls of Galway bore the inscription ‘From the ferocious O’Flahertys O Lord Deliver Us.’
>>
>>12104950
>irish were the bbc's of the early modern period, the english feared these 6'2 well armed warriors so much Elizabeth gave all her soldiers iron helmets
>the english cowered in fear at the mighty irish dwelling in the bogs beyond the forest

Yes, the historical evidence suggests as much, though I do not understand why the Irish remind you of large African penises. Is it because you are obsessed with both of them?
>>
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>>12102910
Extremely silly take. This is like saying that Anglo-Americans are the real protectors of native American culture because they've written more scholarly books about it.

Irish nationalism is non-sectarian, and the Irish Catholic people are religiously tolerant. This has been repeatedly acknowledged even by Irish Protestants such as LECKY (should I tripfag as Leckyposter?)

The Irish disdain for the Irish language from the later nineteenth century on is a consequence of the trauma of the Famine period, in which relative degrees of poverty were literally matters of life and death and being an Irish speaker suggested greater poverty. As well as that everything which was conspicuously Irish was dangerous back then, given the extraordinary power of the landlords and their extraordinary hostility to the native Irish people
>>
>>12103018
>After the defeat of James II there wasn't another serious rebellion in Ireland until after WW1
Tell us what happened in 1798, anon.
>>
>>12105281
A non serious rebellion
>>
>>12105276
>and the Irish Catholic people are religiously tolerant
They kept abortion illegal until few years ago, although thats a good thing, gay marriage also late in adopting, clearly not that much tolerance
>>
>>12102084
> and their mutted ancestry doesn't matter.
Sooo if they are 100% of Irish stock and have distant family in Ireland that doesn’t make them Irish?

And Biden and all of those lefty Jewish mouthpieces are all of 100% Irish American descent, cope more
>>
>>12105399
There is nothing more plastic and hollow than Americans trying to larp as Boston Brahmins by hating the Irish. Actual English people as distinct from mentally ill and terminally online jingoists and Scottish Buckfast drinkers posting on 4chan under a UK flag actually quite like the Irish
>>
>>12105399
>100% Irish
None of them are Irish
Biden himself is a primo larping mutt
Where do you think he got his english surname from?
>>
>>12105508
No bro, you see the Irish are LARPing Anglos with no culture or identity of their own with so much Germanic blood that there is no such thing as purebred Irishman but also they are swarthy Iberian Celts and and even Irish Americans with non-Irish surnames are 100% programmed by their Irish genes to be "Jewish mouthpieces" out to destroy the Anglo civilization which they were contentedly part of until the English shot James Connolly
>>
>>12103164
Begs the question why Israeli efforts to create a national language succeded and Irish efforts to retain their failed. It's not like the Irish governments didn't try and stop it. At a guess it would be because instead of the Israel situation whereby the state is dealing with alot of Jewish people across Europe + the Middle East who may have already had Hebrew as a second language, Irish governments were competing with a long English speaking tradition in Ireland based in the big commercial centres. Hebrew didn't have to compete with Palesetinan Arabic for example.
>>
>>12105438
>smart high iq English people and Scottish chads posting on an history image board hate the Irish as opposed the the regular mass of normies that also likes or is apathetic to niggers and muzzies
Fix’d
Also see:
http://www.amerika.org/politics/assimilation-irish-americans-vote-leftist/
>>
>>12100997
>The number of second-language speakers is growing
Well that's at least something.
>>
>ITT: Anglos who still haven't recovered from getting BTFO last night keep seething about potato niggers
Sorry anons, mud islanders won. Every anti-mickboy thread just proves them right.
>>
>>12105508
All Irish American women I met in high school were notorious race mixers and liberals

Also most lefty areas in the USA are also the most Irish
>>
>>12105686
You're a larper who hates the Irish because you consider them the enemies of the ethnicity you've decided to larp as.

Do you play Warhammer 40k? Which side, Imperium? Which of these do you hate most - the Tau, the Irish, the Eldar or the Tyrannids?
>>
>>12105559
>>12105742
>>12105656
seething fenians
>>
>>12105761
This lad >>12105656 isn't one of us. We're very jealous about the distinction between mud and bogland and we'd never call our boggy island a "mud island".
>>
>>12105742
I don’t hate the Irish I just hate Irish Americans
>>
>>12105796
Fair enough, but remember the English forcing all the Irish out in the 19th century is the reason they're over there
>>
>>12101043
those are americans
>>
>>12106249
Irish Americans
>>
>>12105399
no it doesnt. But they are not of 100% irish stock anyway. More like 25% at the most
>>
>>12105796
apart from americans with irish citizenship, there is no such thing as irish americans
>>
>>12106253
they were born in ireland then?
>>
>>12106264
Huh?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Americans
>>
>>12106266
>>12106269
>>
>>12100139
Because the average IQ of the island is like 67. They can barely even speak one language (English) coherently let alone maintain two languages simultaneously.
Their language is dead. Their blood was never different anyway from surrounding peoples.
They're just another bunch of English LARPers. That's how the world sees them outside the English-speaking regions anyway.
End of discussion.
>>
>>12103164
Slightly different situation. Israel had a lot of different populations with no common language, so it was unifying them.

Irish is attempting to compete with the most successful language in human history right on it's doorstep, in a situation where there's no real barrier to communication in the country or any particular reason to change the language besides culture.

At the end of the day you need a more compelling reason to change a language, if it's not essential them it won't happen
>>
>>12106287
If this is the case why are Irish Catholics among the most successful white groups in both the UK and the US in terms of education and other metrics? And if the Irish are English LARPers whose blood was never different from surrounding peoples why is their IQ so much lower?
>>
>>12104911
Lol you didn't even read the post. I named the guy directly dealing with Irish famine. But ok, Nigel. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
>>
>>12105438
>ree we like the irish
Except we dont, and like the blitz alot of people internalised the troubles but hate those 'dinosaurs' of the dup
>>
>>12105276
Daniel O'Connell was talking shit about the Irish language long before the famine.
>>
>>12105281
An embarrassment for everyone involved.
>>
>>12103018
Also I forgot to mention that during the eighteenth century most of the military resistance was concentrated in the diaspora. The Irish were extremely disproportionately influential and successful in foreign armed forces and made up many of the most renowned regiments in foreign armies. The French victory at Fontenoy in 1745 was lead by the Irish Brigade whose warcry was 'Cuimhnígí ar Luimneach agus ar fheall na Sasanach' ('Remember Limerick and the treachery of the English'). The Irish military exiles hoped to see action on Irish soil but the geopolitics of the eighteenth century thwarted that hope.
>>
>>12107665
Especially for the British soldiers who got killed by Irish paupers using weapons made from farm equipment.
>>
>>12100997
>>12101053
Fascinating thanks
>>
>>12102793
fuck off hunnic nigger
>>
>>12104227
fucking hell
that is more than Poles uprising against Russians
>>
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>>12103141
>The scots are germanic
lmao
>>
>>12102105
It's always the same story
>chieftains/lords/kings conquered some native lands
>they brought in settlers
>settler/elite culture ended up dominating and pressuring the natives to assimilate
Only the Norse were the exceptions to that
>>
>>12107893
>he doesn't know
Anon since the 1500s there has been a rebellion against British rule in Ireland every single generation right up to modernity.
>1534
Silken Thomas rebellion
>1569
Desmond Rebellion
>1579
Desmond Rebellion 2: Electric Boogaloo
>1593
Nine Years War
>1608
O'Doherty's Rebellion
>1641
Phelim O'Neill's conspiracy rebellion
>1642
Irish Confederate Wars
>1689
Jacobite Rebellion

The period of 1691-1778 or so is the only period of relative peace in Ireland; although many Irish soldiers who left in 1691 fought the English overseas in French, Spanish or other foreign armies. Anyway
>1770s
Irish Patriot Movement
>1798
United Irishmen Revolution
>1803
Emmet's Rebellion
>1804
United Irishmen Rebellion in Sydney
>1848
Young Irelander Rebellion
>1866-71
Fenian Raids; Irish republicans in America invade Canada
>1867
Fenian Rising in Ireland
>1881
Fenian Dynamite Campaign
>1882
String of Assassinations by Irish nationalists
>1916
Easter Rising
>1919
War of Independence
>1922
Independence
>1939
IRA S-Plan against the UK
>1956
Border Campaign
>1969
Troubles (although the Irish didn't start that one)
>1998
Dissident Republicans
>>
>>12108130
Some of those are local acts of defiance rather than large scale uprisings though.
>>
>>12107724
The reason for the peace of eighteenth century Ireland until 1798 (aside from the guerrilla and agrarian war waged by the tories and the secret societies like the Houghers in 1705-13, the Whiteboys in 176164, 177076 and 178486, the Rightboys in 1785-88 and the Defenders in the 1780s-90s, each with varying levels of formalised Jacobite or later Republican nationalist ideology) was that, as well as being disarmed and suppressed by a vast state apparatus which included the Penal Laws, the Irish quite reasonably put their hope in a Jacobite restoration backed by the Irish military exiles called the Wild Geese. When the Stuarts did attempt to retake their kingdoms in 1715 and 1745 did they so to a large extent on the basis of the organisation of the continental Irish diaspora. In my view if the Stuarts landed on the coasts of Ireland instead of Scotland they'd be ruling the kingdoms of these isles today.
>>
>>12108245
*the Whiteboys in 1761-64, 1770-76, and 1784-86
>>
>>12108245
It is quite interesting btw that Jacobitism is something associated with the popular image of Scotland rather than Ireland when Ireland was far more Jacobite, unanimously so among the Catholic population. The Boyne doesn't have the same cultural cachet as Culloden as a noble defeat for some reason.
>>
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>>12107906
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>>12108130
Dissident Republicans are the Tories and Rapparees of modern times. That is, if they actually exist and are not a scheme for MI5 and a few ex-IRA contacts to pocket Her Majesty's military budget money between themselves
>>
>>12107893
Most of >>12108130 aren't real rebellions, in the sense of a mass uprising against British rule. With the exception of the 1798 rebellion (which was a colossal failure because it had little popular support), the post-17th century ones mostly fall under the category of what we'd call terrorism these days, i.e. small groups of fanatics staging guerrilla attacks and assassinations. The earlier ones were either regional clan wars or based on personal grievances (e.g. Silken Thomas, who rebelled when he heard his father had been arrested, and the Nine Years War, which started in no small part because Hugh O'Neill eloped with the sister of an English army commander).

He's even called the Jacobite war a 'rebellion', despite the fact that the Irish were trying to reimpose the legitimate British king on a rebellious England.

It's also not really accurate to say that the earlier rebellions were against British rule. The 16th century Irish nobility mostly acknowledged the crown's rights in principle and made use of its power; for example, Hugh O'Neill started off as an English loyalist and was happy to use royal support to establish his position within his clan. They just preferred that the crown stay out of the internal affairs of their clan. The main 17th century rebellion, the Confederate Wars (which is really the only Ireland-wide rebellion that got anywhere) was a demand for greater rights for Catholics, not an independence rebellion - in fact the Confederates morphed from a pro-Catholic uprising into a Royalist army intent on re-imposing Charles I on the English rebels.
>>
>>12108489
you anglo rebels will all should hang
you and your germanjewish queen
>>
>>12100139
did you ask this just so froggits can all insist England is some culturally influential place its really not and you can all jiggle n jerk when nobody mentions american cultural hegemony?
>>
>>12108489
The Irish were referred to both in the duration and wake of the Confederate and Jacobite Wars as rebels. You are correct however that they legitimists fighting English and Scottish treason as well as their own nation.

Hugh O'Neill did begin life as an agent of the crown (and shamefully was involved in the suppression of the Desmond rebellion) but well before the Nine Years' War was covertly building up his own power under the guise of advancing royal authority and providing support for his actual allies under the guise of suppressing them. Shane O'Neill a generation earlier had invoked the Spanish dimension and Hugh O'Neill continued that. If Hugh O'Neill was simply looking to advance his position under the crown, why did he and his allies ally themselves with the Spanish? If the Irish rebellions were about advancing the Irish with the British framework, why did the Irish consistently, in every single war and rebellion, ally themselves with Britain's enemies?

The Confederates were pragmatists who had every reason to pool their forces with those of the English royalists. Don't mistake practicality for unadulterated principle. The Irish should perhaps have waged a national war of independence on account of the fact that their alliance with the royalists cost them dearly because of English hypocrisy and perfidy. The Anglo-Irish royalist Ormonde surrendered Dublin to Cromwell because it was "better in the hands of Protestant rebels than Catholic rebels". That act of treachery was a turning point in the war. I'm coming to the conclusion btw that Ormonde, if not the cruelest or most sadistic, was the slimiest and most loathsome figure in Irish history.

The Irish were a people consistently fighting against bad odds and they had to tailor their declarations of allegiance to circumstance. That O'Neill pretended to be a servant of the crown to buy himself time doesn't mean he was in fact such. The English at the time perceived Irish wars as wars of nationality.
>>
>>12101043
Most of those are Jews. There are two I don't recognize who might be Irish.
>>
>>12108638
*fighting English and Scottish treason as well as for their own nation

I should mention as an addendum to this that part of the reason the Irish were committed to an alliance with the English royalists is that during the Confederate War Ireland's traditional sources of foreign aid, France and Spain, were at odds with each other and courting English support. Their unwillingness to alienate England meant that the Irish had to look closer to home for allies against the rising Puritan threat. Were the Irish nationalist rebels or conservative legitimists in the Confederate War? In my view they were both, as in the Jacobite War.
>>
>>12108684
Nonetheless the Irish did receive some support, mostly financial, from Spain, France and the Papacy during the Confederate War. The Irish were extremely frustrated that the French view of the war was coloured by English royalists in exile whose views were coloured by a dislike of the Irish rebels. The Papal nuncio Rinuccini complained that the national hatred between Ireland and England was so great that English Catholics were depressed by Irish victories. The royalist historian Clarendon, upon the Cromwellian conquest of Ireland, said that the "silver lining" of royalist defeat was that Ireland was now fully subjugated by the English. As well as that I should mention that there are many accounts of the common populace in Ireland in the 1640s saying they hated fighting for the king of England and wanted an Irish king.
>>
>>12108489
>post-17th century ones mostly fall under the category of what we'd call terrorism these days, i.e. small groups of fanatics staging guerrilla attacks and assassinations

British-ruled Ireland in the 19th century (and earlier) was a terrorist state. If you'd like to see the evidence I'd be happy to show it, but I'm willing to slide, given that you won't come out of this exchange looking good.
>>
>>12108489
>the 1798 rebellion (which was a colossal failure because it had little popular support)

Describing a rebellion as a colossal failure is pretty evasive way of talking. What you mean is that it was a rebellion against colossal odds which was colossally catastrophic for the Irish on account of its political fallout, not even getting into the question the horrible atrocities committed by both the army and loyalist militias on civilians as well as rebels in the aftermath. Also interesting by the way that you claim it had little popular support while also conceding that it was a mass uprising against British rule.

>The earlier ones were either regional clan wars or based on personal grievances (e.g. Silken Thomas, who rebelled when he heard his father had been arrested)

You mean personal grievances against the state which was oppressing them? Well yes.
>>
>>12108489
Emmet's Rising, the 1848 Young Irelander rebellion and Fenian Risings were indeed small scale affairs but there are readily explainable reasons for this in each case. Emmet's Rising because the rebel arms depot exploded soon beforehand, thwarting Emmet's plans for a coordinated offensive between the Dublin rebels and Dwyer's Wicklow mountain guerrillas, the Young Ireland rebellion because it took place in the middle of the Great Famine in which the rural poor, who were the most radical and politicised class in Ireland, were simply too calorifically deficient to participate in military action, and the Fenian Rising because effective infiltration of the Fenians by government agents allowed an instant response. With the possible exception of the somewhat rash Young Irelander rebellion these could have easily been much more major episodes.
>>
>>12107395
>>12105615
Wait, I thought the position of UK posters on 4chan was that the English like or are indifferent to the Irish but the Irish are obsessed with the English and spend all day seething about them. Are you telling me that's not true? Hard to keep up with you guys, but I'm trying!
>>
>>12105595
Basically this. Even though Hebrew's status as the official language meant that everyone had to learn it, it was fairer than choosing a diaspora language and thus putting everyone but that diaspora group at a disadvantage.
>>
>>12104950
> All animals of Ireland are smaller than those of other lands, man alone retaining all his majesty. Nature alone has moulded the Irish; and, as if to show what she can do, has given them countenances of most exquisite colour, and bodies of great beauty, symmetry, height, and strength.
Geraldis Cambrensis, 1185

>And moreover they are the most handsome men and fairest women that I have seen in the whole world.
Ramon de Perellós 1397.

>I have heard some great warriors say that, in all the services which they had seen abroad in foreign countries, they never saw a more comely man than the Irishman, nor that cometh on more bravely in his charge.
Edmund Spenser 1597

>Ireland has a people most apt for war, of beautiful and tall body, of the strongest limbs, and of a fair complexion.
Chassan, Catalogus Gloriae Mundi, late 16th century

>During the time of my service I have visited all the provinces of that kingdom (Ireland) in sundry journeys and circuits, wherein I have observed the bodies and minds of the people endued with extraordinary abilities of nature.
John Davies, 1612

>The men of Ireland were good-looking, of extraordinary strength, swift runners; able to bear patiently and with alacrity any hardship, and were all given to arms. The women are of surpassing height and exceeding beauty; and with comeliness combine matchless modesty and piety, by which their native attractions are enhanced.
Papal official Massari and Malasana 1645

>Les plus beaux hommes qu'on puisse voir.
D'Avaux 1690

>Ce sont les gens du monde les mieux faits.
Desgrigny 1690

All examples except for one taken from The Irish people: their height, form, and strength by Edmund Hogan
>>
>>12103681
The Welsh cluster closest to the English genetically

It's Ireland that remained more genetically homogeneous than other populations in Britain due to their relative isolation

We even see this in paternal haplogroups where the indigenous R1b L21 is at a greater frequency in Ireland than England or Wales or Scotland suggesting less replacement of the population
>>
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>>12110290
>The Welsh cluster closest to the English genetically
So do the Irish you fucking spastic.

>It's Ireland that remained more genetically homogeneous than other populations in Britain due to their relative isolation
Barely.
>>
>>12110290
>indigenous R1b L21
LMFAO. How do you think haplogroups work exactly? R1b-L21 is just a subclade of R1b-L151 along with R1b-U106.
It's PIE. Steppe ancestry.
There's nothing fucking indigenous about L21 whatsoever. It's absolutely as Aryan as R1b-U106
>>
>>12110301
Balts have EHG via Baltic HG ancestry too
>>
>>12110648
>Balts have EHG via Baltic HG ancestry too
It's already included in the Yamnaya table. They just combine it since EHG were so genetically similar to Yamnaya.
The 3 main races were Steppe, Neolithic Farmer and Western Hunter Gatherer.
This table just shows each European "ethnicities" total genetic inheritance from each of these historical population blocs.
Irish people are not differernt to English people. And they all speak the same language.
They're the same thing LARPing as a dead ethnolinguistic group.
It's pathetic.
>>
>>12110301
>>12110316
>Whiteness
>Aryan
Okay anon we're on /his/ not /pol/
>>
>>12110898
The genetic inheritance from Yamnaya very clearly correlates with white phenotype. The higher the genetic inheritance from PIEs the whiter a population appears to be.
>>
>>12110908
Yamnaya were churka, that Yamnaya high admixture in Norwegians comes from also High EHG
>>
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>>12110301
Ugh no retard

Ireland is the purest Celts, Wales are just English larping
>>
>>12108854
>What you mean is that it was a rebellion against colossal odds which was colossally catastrophic for the Irish on account of its political fallout, not even getting into the question the horrible atrocities committed by both the army and loyalist militias on civilians as well as rebels in the aftermath
No, I mean it relied on getting the wider Irish nation to rise up, and failed miserably. It was a mass uprising in the sense that the rebels were organized and numbered in the tens of thousands (rather than being just a few dozen amateur enthusiasts), and drew from across Ireland, but that doesn't mean it got the support of the nation as a whole.

It only caused the British army about 500 casualties, which is pretty pathetic, and a drop in the ocean compared to the wider Napoleonic Wars.
>>
I see once again the /his/ "Anglos" (most likely either Scots or larping mutts) aren't able to refute my posts so they're piledriving on the haplo poster
>>
>>12110935
Okay then EHG must be churka too then because they're genetically indistinguishable you fucking spastic.
Done with you now.

>>12110945
Like I said, barely.
>>
>>12110962
>>12110967
Sorry just saw your response now. Will answer shortly.
>>
>>12110972
Doesn't look barely to me so I guess you are wrong
>>
>>12110980
You're including mtDNA which is pointless as the mtDNA of the British Isles and most of northwestern Europe was never overwhelmingly Celtic, Germanic or any other type of Indo-European anyway.
mtDNA was mainly Neolithic Farmer women taken as concubines by invading and conquering Proto-Indo-Europeans who later diverged into Proto-Celtic, Proto-Germanic, Proto-Italic etc. etc.
The Y-DNA of the British Isles is shockingly Germanic. Even in Ireland only around 50% of the Y-DNA is actually R1b-L21.
>>
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>>12108489
>n-not a real war just terrorism
>n-not a real invasion we paid him off

Why do Anglos always attempt to distort history? Why do they always gaslight?
>>
>>12110972
>EHG must be churka too then because they're genetically indistinguishable you fucking spastic.
>EHG is indistinguishable from CHG (churka)
Reddit researcher detected
>>
Finally, a good fucking thread.
>>
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>>12111002
>Even in Ireland only around 50% of the Y-DNA is actually R1b-L21.
Wrong again sweaty
>>
>>12111235
>65%
Oh forgive me for the 15% difference you fucking spastic.
In the Pale, where everyone lives, it's like 40-50%
>>
>>12111235
Source is wrong for Scotland. It's like 30% in the parts people actually live. The remainder is Germanic (55-65%) then DF27 and U152 combined account for around 15% or so.
DF27 and U152 most likely came during periods of Roman and Norman colonization despite what spastic Celtwashers would have you believe.
>>
>>12111281
Why are you getting so upset
>>
>>12111335
I'm not "upset", I'm just insulting you, you silly little fucking cuckold, lmao.
>>
>>12110962
1798 wasn't very different from the other rebellions I mentioned >>12109023 in that its extent was massively curtailed by a pre-emptive government response. For a rebellion that began with an arrest of its leaders due to informers, and was fought mostly with homemade pikes against state forces equipped with firearms, its military performance was indeed very respectable, but given that we are debating the rebelliousness of the Irish rather than military record (which taken in the whole stands very well for itself) it must be said that the fact that the rebellion happened in the first place despite the severity of the disadvantage stands well to the courage of the Irish. You are using the lowest possible estimate of British army casualties by the way and disregarding the fact that most of whom the rebels were fighting were members of loyalist militias who often get counted as civilians despite being armed.
>>
>>12111235
Wonder how high L21 is in Ireland today given like 1/5 of its population is from Eastern Europe, South Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa etc. etc.
Not to mention all the people from the UK living and working there.
>>
>>12108489
>He's even called the Jacobite war a 'rebellion', despite the fact that the Irish were trying to reimpose the legitimate British king on a rebellious England.

The Jacobite rising of 1745 in Scotland is called the Forty-Five Rebellion is it not? Why one rule for the Scots and another for the Irish?

The fascination of Irish history is that Irish nationalism is a kind of Vendéenne Jacobinism. It's both revolutionary and counter-revolutionary at the same time. Jacobitism and Jacobinism are as conceptually alike in Ireland as they are phonetically.
>>
>>12111094
Bien monsieur, having Angloids as our only geographic neighbours is the chief explanation for Irish neuroticism. You have Spaniards, Italians, Germans etc. to break up the monotony, even if the Germans have been very bad neighbours in the last 150 years. We just have Angloids and this is why we are insane. You're familiar with how they like to psychologically undermine rivals (even if those rivals are allies) and enemies. Imagine them in complete control of your country and its press and education system for centuries. Imagine them imposing their opinions on you at swordpoint or gunpoint for almost a millennium instead of just shouting at you on the internet and worming their way insidiously through your media and institutions. They're not the worst people in the world, and in fact there's a great deal to respect and admire about them, but they're certainly the most devious and the faggiest.

Boarding school pederasty is the key to understanding the British elite. As Mugabe said it is a gay gangster government
>>
Cause English was way more useful. Having English as your native language is such a massive leg-up to your country that you'd have to be retarded to want to change it.
>>
>>12100139
It didn't. The map on the right is pretty much how it looked in 1920, with the exception of west Clare. Most of the parts that went missing between the second to last and last maps were areas where it had already died as the language of the youth and it was still marked due to the older generations. Also neither of the two on the left are entirely accurate either.
>>
>>12111831
I should mention that everything they (and by they I mean their minority of obsessed Ireland-hating weirdos, most English people are actually chill with us) say about Ireland is insanely brazen projection.

"Ireland is a tax haven": True enough, but an infinitely smaller, cleaner and more upfront tax haven than the City of London, which is the epicentre of global corruption.

"Irish priests are pedophiles": Pedophile priests in Ireland are notable for being aberrant exceptions, and their very existence shocked a naive population into apostasy from the religion for which millions of their ancestors died over the last half-millennium, whereas pederasty has a central and established place in English elite culture. That some teachers like boys a little too much and will act on it has been taken for granted and accepted in English boarding school culture for centuries.

"The Irish are sectarian terrorists": The Troubles were literally started by unprovoked pogroms committed by ethnically-British Protestant Loyalists against Irish Catholics, which portended ethnic cleansing. These same Loyalists now play the victim because their attempts to ethnically cleanse Ulster were stopped by Irish Catholics resistance.

Investigate all of this for yourselves. It doesn't show the British national character in the best light.
>>
>>12111857
It's also a gigantic cuckstamp when you're also LARPing as something other than English people.
>>
>>12112127
What are you larping as
>>
>>12112156
Nothing. I am English. Fucking retard.
>>
>>12112156
>>12112163
Oh right, you mean the "Irish". Well, clearly they're LARPing as Gaels you fucking spastic.
None of them speak Irish. The language is dead and they're mutted to fuck anyway (not that Gaels themselves were genetically different from those surrounding them in the first place).
It's just fucking pathetic. It's like French people all adopting German and still claiming to be French 400 years later.
>>
>>12112163
Oh right I guess by your logic so anglophone Indians and Africans are English too
>>
>>12112127
Not the anon you're replying to but you do not understand Ireland and I would like to explain way.

The idea that the Irish are Britons seeking fretfully, self-consciously and self-deceivingly to distance themselves from Britishness is completely wrong. Culturally our problem is the opposite: our problem is that we take our difference from the English for granted as something immutable and fixed, which leads us to become complacent and sleepwalk further and further into Anglicisation. If we were insecure about our sense of being a different people from the English, as you seem to think we are, we would actually make an effort to resist Anglicisation. I think such insecurity would actually be good for us. Our problem is not anxiety and insecurity about our identity but complacency and a false sense of security.

Even though I unequivocally and categorically agree that the decline of the Irish language has been an unmitigated catastrophe for Ireland, the fact remains that we are a people who would never confuse ourselves with the English. We have a fundamentally different attitude to fate, death, sex, family, history, eternity and time.
>>
>>12112181
>not that Gaels themselves were genetically different from those surrounding them in the first place).
This has already been proven wrong in the thread, it's the Irish who those in Britain historically resembled before being "mutted" as you say, especially the English
>>
>>12112191
Very few Africans or Indians speak English as their mothertongue, actually. The vast, vast majority speak their tribal languages first, then usually a second indigenous language and finally many speak English, French or some other European language as a LINGUA FRANCA.
That is not the situation in Ireland at all.
Do English-speaking Africans and Indians look white? Are they genetically borderline identical to English people?
>>12106287
Do you know what comparing apples to oranges means?

Huge percentages of the "Irish" population does NOT descend from the Gaels. Nor do they speak the language of the Gaels.
You can say modern Irish people partially descend from historical Irish people in the same way Americans partially descend from Germans for example.
But they're not Irish anymore, just like Americans are not Germans.
Idiot
>>
>>12112199
I don't give a fuck what YOU would confuse yourself for. Alexander wouldn't have considered himself a Greek. NO fucking Greeks of the time would have considered Alexander a Greek.
What does history fucking consider Alexander. What do YOU fucking consider Alexander you delusional fucking spastic runt.
What you consider yourself is a fucking irrelevance. I have never met a single person outside the English-speaking world who considered Irish people to be anything other than a type of English people.
In fact vast numbers of people WITHIN the English-speaking fucking world consider Irish people a type of English (particularly places like America and Australia etc.)
Your people are fucking dead. Whether you want to delude yourself into thinking otherwise through elaborate LARPs and mental gymnastics is, again, a fucking irrelevance.
History will not care.
>>
>>12112215
>Huge percentages of the "Irish" population does NOT descend from the Gaels.

Pardon me, I never noticed the sign at Dublin airport that said "Now entering the GAELIC ETHNOSTATE - Land of the Pure Gaels ahead!!!" Why do English people think Ireland is based around a Celtic blood-purity cult?
>>
>>12112206
No it hasn't been proven wrong your genetic profile is absolutely typical for northwestern Europe and you can see heavy Germanic admixture on the father side in Irish Y-DNA.
Your fucking father of Irish nationalism was half fucking Spanish you absolute moron.
You're a complete fucking mutted people, tenfold so today considering 1/5 of your population isn't even from the British Isles much less Ireland.
You don't speak your own fucking language and you're typical northwestern European mutts.
Keep fucking coping, mate. Your people will not exist in several generations time.
>>
>>12112238
>Your people are fucking dead. Whether you want to delude yourself into thinking otherwise through elaborate LARPs and mental gymnastics is, again, a fucking irrelevance. History will not care.

History might not care, and if that's the case for the sake of your blood pressure you should follow history's example.
>>
>>12112252
>and you can see heavy Germanic admixture on the father side in Irish Y-DNA.
Prove it so
>>
>>12112248
>Ireland is based around a Celtic blood-purity cult?
Well what is it fucking based around? Why are you flipflopping between blood and language mattering. What is Irishness, is it just a fucking tribal name? Bit of a fucking vapid identity then, is it not?
You speak English. You're mutts like the English themselves (and every other European ethnic group).
What's your fucking identity? What's the fucking distinction, mate?
>>
>>12112252
>You don't speak your own fucking language and you're typical northwestern European mutts.

If we're typical northwestern European mutts on what grounds do you say Irish is our language in the first place? If we're a soup of peoples and always have been in what way are we betraying ourselves by drifting from our native culture? If you think we should be ashamed of not speaking Irish (and I agree we should be) isn't it on the basis of drifting from our own heritage? How do you reconcile that with your claim that we have no distinct ethnic heritage?
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>>12112266
You think you'd already be aware of this considering it's the sole basis for your meme identity.
As you can see R1B-L21 is only 60% of Y-DNA among Irish men. Let me just clarify that's people identifying as ethnically Irish, not including all the Slavs and others that have migrated into Ireland over the past 100 years. So just out of that base Irish stock that have been there for centuries, only 60% of you are actually L21.
Of that L21 much is from Celtic Britons. Walsh is the 4th most common fucking surname in Ireland. Brannagh is another extremely common surname in Ireland.
Both of these names mean 'Briton, Foreigner, Welshman'.
A lot of that L21 is not even fucking Gaelic itself.
The remaining stuff is all stuff like U106 (Germanic), R1a, and various Germanic subclades of I.
So like I said, significant admixture with Germanic and other groups on the fatherlines. You all only speak English.
Where's your fucking people, mate? What's your identity?
>>
>>12112297
>If we're typical northwestern European mutts on what grounds do you say Irish is our language in the first place?
Because you're calling yourselves fucking Irish you spastic runt. You're calling yourselves after a historical people that spoke that language which YOU do not fucking speak and whom HUGE PERCENTAGES of you don't actually descend from.
As I said, you are LARPing as Irish people. You're a regional type of English people in denial.
Keep coping.
>>
>>12112270
My friend, do you consider America a separate country from Britain? If language is the criterion of statehood you ought not to.
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>>12112305
So Ireland is genetically more homogeneous than any of the British countries who are all mutts, I see
Thank you for proving me right

That's the only part in your post which relies on hard data that isn't your own presumptions, I don't see the proof of "significant admixture with Germanic and other groups on the fatherlines" anywhere unfortunately for you
>>
>>12112318
>You're calling yourselves after a historical people that spoke that language which YOU do not fucking speak

Tá Gaelainn agam féinig. Bí i do thost a bhodach
>>
>>12112320
White Americans are not a different ethnic group from those in England, no. Now they definitely believe they are. And people in England definitely believe they're different.
But again, history will not view these as distinct peoples. They will not view historical American literature as anything but 'English literature'.
I don't know why you're talking about political states as if that has anything to do with what we're talking about.
Austria is a different country from Germany, they're both ethnically Germans.
This is the problem that emerges when you delude yourselves into thinking language doesn't mean anything.
It either boils down to bloodcult purityspiralling (which as we can establish emphatically renders you barely any more Irish than going by language) or some other stupid kind of fucking cope.
You know there's a really common term outside the English-speaking world for Americans, British Isles, Australians etc. etc. It's the 'Anglo-Saxon world'. It's used very commonly in German, Spanish and other kinds of media.
They already all see you as 'English'. Every German I've spoken to does not understand the stupid fucking meme divisions of English-speaking people.
Keep whining and screeching and coping and LARPing all you like but every word you speak. Every word you type. Every single thing you accomplish in life will go down historically as an ENGLISH achievement.
It's all for fucking nothing. I'm sorry to break it to you.
>>
>>12112340
Try pronouncing it. :)
>>
>>12112363
Im Spanish and we certainly do not consider Irish people to be the same as you Anglo rats, speak for yourself
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>>12112363
I'm a Gaelic revivalist and I don't disagree with you about the necessity of the reviving Irish if Ireland is to be restored true national life. We agree on many points, but I think you overstate all of them.

That said, I think you should seriously consider having sex. Consensually. With an woman.
>>
>>12112305
...Yeah, " tons" of U106 you fucking dumb LARPer. LMAO
>>
>>12112339
>So Ireland is genetically slightly less mixed than any of the British countries who are all mutts, I see
>Thank you for proving me right
Yes. Ireland retains SLIGHTLY higher levels of L21 than those in Great Britain. A lot of which comes from Celtic Britons themselves fleeing those various continental invasions, making Ireland... shock horror. BRITISH.
You already are hybridized among the L21 population, only merely part Gael. Then a whopping 40% fucking percent of you come from Norman, English, Norse and other colonizations.
Then there's all the fucking migration taken place in the past 100 years. 1/5 of your population today doesn't even come from the fucking British Isles much less Ireland.
Imagine all that R1a, J, I and other stuff circulating in the wombs of "Irish" women as we speak.
Delicious.
But hey at least you have your language to ASSIMILATE them into right... right... r-r-right?
Oh dear. You all speak English. Mutts that speak English.
Christus Jesus.
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>>12112383
>Im Spanish and we certainly do not consider Irish people to be the same as you Anglo rats, speak for yourself
I thought you were Basque, friendo? Glad you can finally fucking agree you're Spanish. Makes a change.
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>>12112397
I1 and I2 already existed in Neolithic Ireland you retard. And U106 is barely noticeable in Ireland. Just stop you Scottish schizo.
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>>12112407
Whats funny is that I'm the Basque guy and I'm the one who posted the U106. Hahahahaha
>>
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>>12112396
It's literally 10% of the Y-DNA in Ireland. Then there's the Germanic subclades of I and even some R1a to boot.
And now take a look a population density map of Ireland, mate ;)
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>>12112417
Go ahead, tell me other Germanic clades in Ireland. The unsourced meme graphic you posted counts I1 as Germanic when it even existed in Neolithic Southern Europe for fucks sake.
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>>12112394
I don't give a fuck what you agree with or what you fucking are. When did I ask?
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>>12112377
According to English phonetics, roughly, "taw Gwaylinn (last syllable is subtle and hard to describe, roughly between the English -ing and Spanish ñ) oggum faynig. Bee i duh husst a vuddukh (guttural consonant)". The consonants are soft and different to English and work by a velarisation-palatisation system similar to Russian
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>>12112409
>I1 and I2 already existed in Neolithic Ireland you retard.
The subclades that are there today did not.
Please stop attempting to discuss archaeogenetics when you don't understand how they function.
Let me put it this way for you. R1B was in Ireland before the Germanic invasions. But all the U106 that exists in Ireland still comes from the Germanic invasions and colonizations.
Following this? Same with the subclades of I that are there.
Genetics follow neat evolutionary trees of descent.
>>
>>12112422
I already have told you. Jesus Christ you fucking mouthbreather, please stop discussing archaeogenetics when you don't know the first fucking thing about them.
The source is fucking Eupedia. >>12103722
Which you used yourself a moment ago posting the U106 map.
Idiot.
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>>12112437
>The subclades that are there today did not.
The meme map you posted included all of I1 lmfao
>Please stop attempting to discuss archaeogenetics when you don't understand how they function.
Funny considering I'm doing my doctoral studies on it :)
>But all the U106 that exists in Ireland still comes from the Germanic invasions and colonizations.
Aaand you don't address that U106 only makes up 5-10% of Irish Y-DNA. Nice
>Following this? Same with the subclades of I that are there.
Then go ahead, post a study with the Germanic I clades present in Irish Y-DNA, I'm waiting
>>
>>12112397
Significantly higher as proven earlier in the thread (which you either lied about or didn't know which doesn't reflect well on you)
You are VERY emotional and menstrual about this topic but you still have no proof other than the repeated hot air in your posts and meme maps unfortunately
>>
>>12112427
I'm not asking you to write out how it sounds. I'm asking you to try fucking pronouncing it because we both know you're not fluent whatsoever in Irish.
Have fun LARPing. You're a type of fucking English. That is how history will see you.
You want to change that by all means go ahead, start learning Irish and speaking it predominantly as your main tongue.
Bingo, there you go.
>>
>>12112446
>the source is Eupedia
The difference is Eupedia refferenced an actual study and visualized the study's data, in this meme image he claims that I1 is Germanic and only removed Finnish subclades of I1 which is just retarded at best.
"These includes Y-DNA haplogroups I1 (except some subclades of Finnish origin), I2a2a-L801, R1a-L664, R1a-Z284, R1b-U106, and R1b-L238."
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>>12112449
>The meme map you posted included all of I1 lmfao
Yes because ALL THE FUCKING SUBCLADES OF I1 IN IRELAND TODAY ARE FUCKING GERMANIC. WHAT ARE YOU NOT GETTING ABOUT THIS?
>>
>>12112463
>ALL THE FUCKING SUBCLADES OF I1 IN IRELAND TODAY ARE FUCKING GERMANIC. WHAT ARE YOU NOT GETTING ABOUT THIS?
No they are not. I1 has a TMRCA of 4600 ybp you spastic freak
>>
>>12112462
1/5 of their modern population isn't even from Ireland. 20%. 40% of the ethnic Irish aren't even R1B-L21 let alone Gaelic subclades of R1B-L21.
You're talking about maybe 20-30% genetic inheritance from actual Gaels at best.
None of those incoming people are learning Irish, at best they're learning fucking English lmao.
You are a people in name only. You are a LARP.
I just want you to be very clear about that. I want you to understand that. Now I know you're going to continue to scream and cry and refuse to accept that.
But I do know that you understand it. And I do know that it fucking destroys you inside.
And that makes me immensely happy.
>>
The fact that Brits on 4chan insist we're a retarded inherently inferior race which is genetically identical them is a fairly weird form of gaslighting I must say
>>
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>>12112482
Forgot pic

>>12112472
>No they are not. I1 has a TMRCA of 4600 ybp you spastic freak
WHAT. ARE. YOU. NOT. GETTING. ABOUT. THE. CONCEPT. OF. SUBCLADES.
SERIOUSLY. WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU NOT UNDERSTANDING ABOUT THIS?
>>
>>12102105
it's because the language of administration became anglo-saxon. if you wanted to get anywhere in life you had to speak it. same thing happened in ireland, all administration was done in english. a monolingual irish speaker could be charged, tried, and punished without understanding a single word that was being said to him
>>
>>12112482
>1/5 of their modern population isn't even from Ireland. 20%. 40% of the ethnic Irish aren't even R1B-L21 let alone Gaelic subclades of R1B-L21.
According to meme maps which count all of I1 as Germanic, sure. All I estimate is around 10% of the country has Germanic Y-DNA considering populous places like Cork and Limerick do not even score U106 and Dublin is 5-10%. Germanic I1 should be half of current I1 levels, (there are many non-Germanic I1 clades in Irelans, look at I-A262 on yfull).
>You're talking about maybe 20-30% genetic inheritance from actual Gaels at best.
This is a catastrophically stupid claim and you yourself know it.
>None of those incoming people are learning Irish, at best they're learning fucking English lmao.
Yes
>You are a people in name only. You are a LARP.
I just want you to be very clear about that. I want you to understand that. Now I know you're going to continue to scream and cry and refuse to accept that.
I am the fucking Basque poster you seething maniac good lord. Have you noticed I never actually debate you on that Irish people not speaking Irish makes them the same as Irish? Have you ever noticed that? If they don't speak Irish they are LARPing. We have agreed on this multiple times. What annoys me is when you try to pull shit from your ass that Irish people are only 30% paternally Gaelic or whatever, such absurdities cannot go without a retort.
>>
>>12112462
>The difference is Eupedia refferenced an actual study and visualized the study's data, in this meme image he claims that I1 is Germanic and only removed Finnish subclades of I1 which is just retarded at best.
>"These includes Y-DNA haplogroups I1 (except some subclades of Finnish origin), I2a2a-L801, R1a-L664, R1a-Z284, R1b-U106, and R1b-L238."
Eupedia shows the exact same fucking thing as my map. Look at Eupedia's map of Germanic genetics.
Here, I'll fucking link it to you so you can read their studies personally yourself:
>https://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#Germanic
Seriously. Why are you this fucking mentally incompetent?
Do you get off on being humiliated intellectually or something? Do you get off on being made to look like a buffoon?
Your stupidity causes me physical fucking pain.
>>
>>12112490
You don't know what a TMRCA is, do you? I1 is literally a chalcolithic era split from I. It has existed in all parts of Europe and not all Irish subclades are Germanic (such as the one I posted before).
>>
>>12112514
...Because Maciamo claims that all of I1 is Germanic, which is outdated because it's a Chalcolithic era split. Germanic culture is Iron Age.
>>
>>12112510
>This map was computed by adding paternal lineages associated with the diffusion Germanic peoples from the Iron Age onwards. These includes Y-DNA haplogroups I1 (except some subclades of Finnish origin), I2a2a-L801, R1a-L664, R1a-Z284, R1b-U106, and R1b-L238.
This is Eupedia. Read their articles on I to understand WHY the I1 in Ireland all comes from Germanic colonizations.
I've already explained to you numerous times but the (apparent student of archaeogenetics) is too fucking stupid to understand the concept of subclades.
So let the articles teach you. Idiot.
Fucking mongol.
>>
>>12112525
No it fucking doesn't. Look at https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-A375/ and tell me if that is fucking Germanic. It's TMRCA preceeds the Germanic expansions into the British Isles you intellectual mental midget
>>
>>12112510
>(there are many non-Germanic I1 clades in Irelans, look at I-A262 on yfull).
There's never been a single historical Gaelic I-A262 sample found.
So no, it isn't Gaelic. And as far as we know did not exist in Ireland before the Germanic expansions.
Either that or it's at such infinitesimal levels in the Irish population as to be irrelevant.
>>
>>12112545
Nigger LOOK AT THE CLADE I JUST POSTED. I posted the upstream of I-A252 which TMRCA preceeds Germanic settlement in Ireland. Not just that, but nobody outside the British Isles has it either. If it were Germanic it would have other Germanics sharing the clade. But it does not. It's almost as if... It's a Bell Beaker I1 clade??? Revolutionary!!! Call the press!!!
>>
>>12112510
>Have you noticed I never actually debate you on that Irish people not speaking Irish makes them the same as Irish? Have you ever noticed that? If they don't speak Irish they are LARPing. We have agreed on this multiple times.
Why are you such a disingenuous, snivelling, lying little fucking rodent.

>What annoys me is when you try to pull shit from your ass that Irish people are only 30% paternally Gaelic or whatever, such absurdities cannot go without a retort.
It's 100% accurate. The L21 that exists in Ireland is already split between Celtic Briton and Pictish subclades of L21. Gaelic subclades of L21 in Ireland only make up a fraction, and L21 itself is only around 60% of the Irish population.
I don't know how they teach math in fucking Basque but maybe you should just learn fucking Spanish and let that retarded language die if you can't factor simple percentages like this.

I personally don't think it's relevant at all what percentage of genetic inheritance Irish people have from "Gaels" because Gaels just descend from a mix of Proto-Indo-Europeans, Neolithic Farmers and Western Hunter-Gatherers as do Germanic peoples anyway.
The sole difference between them historically is that the PIE language/culture corrupted into a slightly different form in Gaelic areas than it did in Germanic areas.
That's it. That's the big fucking difference.
It's not important. It's not relevant. The important thing is that language and culture is fucking dead today.
Ergo people in Ireland are English, and Germanic.
>>
>>12112409
Is that poster a Scot? Thought so. Scots give me the fucking creeps desu. The intensity with which they feel hatred is genuinely disturbing. They have a weird inferiority complex with regards both the English and the Irish and it fucks them up mentally
>>
>>12112561
What percentage of the Irish population is I-A252? :)
>>
>>12112584
Well no, but I am from "Scot"land. Unlike you, I refuse to LARP as something I objectively am not.
Also you seem to be confusing pity for hate. Common symptom of severe autism.
>>
>>12112593
Whatever you want to call your people you're sadly representative of their character in my experience
>>
>>12112578
>Why are you such a disingenuous, snivelling, lying little fucking rodent.
You have dementia or severe autism, I suggest having sex.
>The L21 that exists in Ireland is already split between Celtic Briton and Pictish subclades of L21. Gaelic subclades of L21 in Ireland only make up a fraction, and L21 itself is only around 60% of the Irish population.
Nice job pulling this "half" statistic out of your ass. And "Pictish L21"? Bahahahaha
>Ergo people in Ireland are English, and Germanic.
And are the Italians Germanic? Italo-Celtic was newer than NW Indo-European. Italy is Germanic now! Woohoo!

>>12112587
Considering 20% of Irish I on yfull are that clade I'd say 20% of I. There are other non-Germanic I clades in Ireland too.
>>
>>12112632
>Whatever you want to call your people
So English.

>you're sadly representative of their character in my experience
Yeah, for people who can't quite wrap their minds around the fact that a region inhabited by millions of people will have all different personalities and mindsets and so on, sure.
Every "Irish" person I've met has been a faggot cuckold twink with the build of a 16yo female jockey.
Does that mean all Irish people are faggot cuckold twinks.
Are you a faggot cuckold twink, anon? You certainly sound like a faggot cuckold twink.
>>
>>12112634
>And are the Italians Germanic? Italo-Celtic was newer than NW Indo-European. Italy is Germanic now! Woohoo!
What language do Italians speak? You just can't stop comparing apples to oranges, can you.

>Italo-Celtic was newer than NW Indo-European.
What the fuck are you even talking about? Italians still speak Italic languages you fucking moron.

>Considering 20% of Irish I on yfull are that clade I'd say 20% of I. There are other non-Germanic I clades in Ireland too.
Nonsense.

>There are other non-Germanic I clades in Ireland too.
They're not fucking Celtic either, are they. They're not even fucking Indo-European.
>>
>>12100139
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>>12112655
You sound very Scottish for an Englishman
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>>12112716
Considering I can't speak a word of Gaelic I'd love to know how you came to that conclusion.
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>>12100139
anyone can speak irish
just get drunk enough and you will be top tier speaker
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>>12112731
Because the English while often contemptuous and arrogant are rarely hateful. Deep, cold-blooded, hot-headed, brooding, seething, and icily furious hatred is a Scottish trait. I can tell English anons from Scots anons here because the English ones are glib, barbed, sadistic and mocking, or alternatively dismissive, evasive and disingenuous, and they don't really seem emotionally invested in these arguments beyond online shitposting, whereas the Scots seem to smoulder with a coal-like hatred and seem to put something scarily genuine into their online shitflinging
>>
>>12112778
Or, you know, maybe people in England have a wide array of different personalities, talking manners, mindsets, beliefs etc. etc. as do people in "Scot"land.
You know, like any other large group of people in the world.
>>
>>12112778
You know if you actually spoke the language of the people you're claiming to belong to today you wouldn't need to rely on this stupid "Y'see black people be like... And white people be all like..." worldview and mindset in order to fucking cope with your actual lack of a real identity.
Seems like a sad way to live trying to comport yourself and think in a manner that conforms to whatever stereotypes abound for your claimed ethnic identity.
But I've wasted enough time on you as is. LARP away, man, whatever makes you happy.
But as with trannys, just don't expect other people to embrace your delusion or 'respect your pronouns'.
You're constantly sperging out over Irish people being "mistaken" for a type of English or grouped with them. I'm explaining to you why that happens and why history will only ever see you as English.
You're fighting against reality basically, much like the tranny.
>>
>>12112593
How come you've never shown your DNA test seeing has how you go on so much about all that sort of stuff. You've never proved your Germanicness here once even though you never shut up about it.
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>>12113627
Ive done this numerous times. I dont need to prove anything anyway
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>>12113627
I only go on about this stuff because it is the literal basis of the modern “Irish” identity considering they all speak English, a Germanic language, despite emphatically protesting being classed as either English or Germanic.
They are not different genetically, they do not descend from different peoples and they don’t speak a different fucking language lmao.
They are not Irish. They are English. They are LARPers.
End of discussion. Checking out now.
>>
>>12112655
You're an internet Hardman and that's even worse than being a faggot cuckold twink. The fact you come daily to an anonymous image board to seethe about Irish people tells everyone here all they need to know about the sort of man you are. You've never and will never say anything to or go toe to toe with an Irish man irl so you'll just come here and go on like a spastic daily instead.
>>
>>12113659
>>12113677
Its all just a bit of fun to me, I find the ancestral genetic stuff interesting but ultimately we all come from the same place at the end if the day.
One thing I cannot stand is fucking LARP identities. It really sickens me to my core.
>>
>>12113684
>You've never and will never say anything to or go toe to toe with an Irish man irl
Ive said this kind of stuff numerous times to “Irish” people. The women usually agree with me, the men just perform the same embarrassing mental gymnastics that you do here before saying nothing and walking away when I respond with the usual retorts. Or they accuse me of being a racist, a fascist or of hatespeech like a fucking snivelling little kike would, or any other parasitic professional victim class does.
I dont know why you bring up inane nonsense about “hardmen” and fighting. Im just saying every “Irish” person Ive met has been an effeminate twink that was a far-left cuckold freak or just an actual homosexual in most cases.
But at the end of the day none of this really matters because you’re not actually “Irish” just a bunch of English-speaking rootless mongrels LARPing as such.
Sad, really.
>>
>>12113709
And there is perhaps no worse of a LARP today than “Irishness”. Maybe “Scottishness” but most people don’t take that seriously anymore I don’t think. “Irish ess” still seems to have a shred of validity in some circles.
So whenever I see people talking in such ways, I correct them.
>>
>>12100139
The short answer is that successive government basically considered it low priority to revive the language.

>>12102910
This isn't true at all. In fact its more the case that too many of the real nationalist leaders died or ended up politically marginalised due to their opposition to the treaty, leaving less nationalist, mostly bourgeois elements to run the show. A lot about post-independence Ireland can be explained by that fact. People tend to think that the people who ran the Free State were the same people who had been at the vanguard of the national movement, for the most part they weren't.
>>
>>12113735
>The women usually agree with me

Really? Women who are dumb as fuck and whom 99% of know nothing about history or haplo groups and DNA agreed you? Suuure. I believe you and your not making shit up.


>because you’re not actually “Irish” just a bunch of English-speaking rootless mongrels LARPing as such.
Sad, really

You keep telling yourself that to cope with the Irish blood in your veins. Whatever helps you sleep at night.
>>
>>12113677
This really has to be the most autistic /pol/ tier take on ethno-national identity I've ever heard. The core feature of an identity isn't reducible to something mechanical like a language or even genetic similarity. Its a common feeling of shared past and present. For an Irish person, to look at your past, its all just fundamentally different from that of an English person. You can't just adopt an identity of a different people because they have similar genetics. This actually is larping. Every single thing it means to be Irish or to be English is different on a base level, regardless of how fucked a position the culture may be in.
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>>12113784
Theres no such thing as “Irish blood” as Ive painstakingly been trying to explain and demonstrate to you this entire thread.
But believe whatever helps you cope.
Your “people” are effectively extinct. And in a few generations they’ll be a forgotten thing entirely.
You’re already just “that remaining English-speaking region of the EU”. They even retired Irish as a working language of the EU because they literally couldn’t find translators to translate EU legal documents into Irish.
Embarrassing, truly.
>>
>>12113795
Alright, so tranny shit. Like I was saying earlier, lol. Great solid foundation identity. I’m sure it’ll last a long and healthy time!
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>>12113795
>You can't just adopt an identity of a different people because they have similar genetics. This actually is larping.
Alright so are you acknowledging all the people who don’t descend from Gaels in Ireland are not in fact Irish, can never be Irish and are, as you say, LARPers.
Even if they presumably started speaking Irish to native level, they’d still just be LARPers.
You agree then most of your modern population are LARPers?
Are the Irish nature’s first true example of a transspecies, because I could’ve sworn I was having a discussion with fucking weasels and not actual human beings here.
Being Grade A spastic retards doesn’t make you a different people. It STILL just makes you Grade A spastic retards who are English lmao.
Jesus Christ this is fucking pathetic. Get a grip of yourself.
Just go and learn fucking Irish and start speaking it if it means this much to you, you lazy fucking moronic sack of worthless, putrid, festering shit.
You are utterly fucking worthless. Aren’t you.
>>
>>12113819
What the fuck do trannies have to do with anything? You poltards are literally mentally ill
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>>12113844
Your identity basically boils down to ‘muh feelings’ lmao.
You are a tranny identity. Mechanically English in every measurable way, but telling the world loud and proud you are not in fact a man, but a WOman.
And the world MUST accept and go along with this or you’ll get REALLY offended and upset and throw a little strop and maybe run off to the UN and complain about fascism and oppression and hatespeech and yadda yadda.
Jesus you are fucking exhausting and insufferable.
Do you not get fucking sick if yourself, seriously? Do you never just wake up hating yourself and the sham you choose to live out?
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>>12113841
With very few exceptions the only people in Ireland with zero Gaelic blood are descendants of the Protestant ascendancy and some Ulster Prods, mainly in Antrim and Down. Even a lot of them are of mixed English, Scots and Irish stock. So I don't even know what your point is.
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>>12113857
1/5 of your current population werent even in the British Isles.
Gaelic blood is a fucking fantasy
Are you seriously trying to shift the goalposts to “they just need a single Gaelic ancestor” lmao.
I guess you think those White Americans truly are Navajo due to their 1/16th Native American DNA lmao.
You’re fucking pathetic. An absolute joke of a “people”.
>>
>>12113854
You see, this is how I know you are a soulless Amerishart with autism spectrum disorder. You literally don't know what its like to belong to an ethnic or cultural community, you can't comprehend the immaterial, so you seek to reduce everything to measurable concrete phenomena. With that approach you'll never understand the concept of identity. But if you really want to go down that route, Irish people are actually different genetically from English people, we do actually look slightly different on the whole, and the linguistic and cultural "Englishness" of Ireland is a superficial imposition courtesy of a sustained colonial effort against us. So yeah, that's actually a big fucking difference from that being your own native culture.
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>>12113867
>1/5 of your current population weren't even in the British Isles

Yeah they're not Irish, never will be, the saorstat is fake and gay, what do you want me to say? Where are you from to have such a high fucking horse?

>“they just need a single Gaelic ancestor”

No, and in the grand scheme of things a few plastic paddy boomers getting souvenir citizenship is so irrelevant its not even worth talking about
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>>12113857
Bud. You could be 100% descended from Gaels and if your name’s John Smith and your only language is English… you’ll go down in history as an Englishman.
Sorry to break it to you.
Having some partial descent from Gaels means absolutely fucking nothing lmao.
Holy shit the sheer cope and mental gymnastics just to rescue a shred of validity.
The insecurity. This should really tell you what you already know but for some inexplicable reason you continue with this pathetic display in masochism.
I cannot do this with you anymore. It’s depressing merely to talk to you.
Goodbye
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>>12113878
Except nobody now or ever historically registered us as English on account of speaking English for several generations. Plus even with the English language our naming customs are different.

Honestly I'm curious what your cultural background is. Please tell me.
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>>12100139
That map isn't quite a fair representation.
Pic related shows all those who can speak Irish to some degree, regardless of which language is used more.
>Why did the Irish language decline even further after Ireland became independent?
It more or less stagnated rather than decline as a primary language. This is because, despite educational, religious and idealist policies encouraging Irish be taught in schools, realistically, English remained the primary language because it's what everyone already knew, including the adults running the administration, leaving it as the primary language.
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>>12113878
No one is simultaneously named "John Smith" and 100% descended from Gaels. They'd have the Gaelic form of the name (Eoin McGowan I think) in that case.
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>>12113930
The man's clearly talking out his arse. I don't know where he's from but I'd suspect either Brit or American. Don't know what it is but the very notion of Ireland and the Irish just seems to make a certain kind of Anglo on this site seethe to their very core. Any time the subject of Ireland comes up you'll always find them either harping on about how stupid and inferior the Irish are or trying to invalidate the idea of Irishness like this guy is.
>>
>>12113878
>>12113854
Friend, let's say you wake up in alternative universe tomorrow in which facts prove to your satisfaction that the Irish are a separate and distinct nation. How would you feel? Happy or sad? Even angrier?

>>12113735
Ok, you're implying you've seduced Irish women by overawing them with information about the falseness of their identity and their Germanic haplogroups. I'm somewhat sceptical of this but I think getting a girlfriend, perhaps especially an Irish girlfriend, might actually be good for your mental health.

You're also wrong to assume that Irish people are triggered into jealousy by seeing Irish women with English without a state and military apparatus backing them up Englishmen physically unthreatening and mild-mannered, and a lot of the time rather nice. It's like an AM/WF or WM/BF relationship. I'm not to keen on Irish women marrying Scots though desu because in certain cases I know of this happening the Scot was an alcoholic who beat his children.

You tend to bring up trannies, cuckolds, twinks and gays a lot. It gives more than a feint hint of projection regarding your own sexuality
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>>12113988
That particular guy's thesis is that: (a) the Irish are submissive inferior mutted slaves of Germanics (b) that the population replacement was so total that the Irish now ARE Germanics. If (b) is true and the Irish are basically the same thing as the Anglo-Saxons, in what respect are the Irish inferior to the Anglo-Saxons? If both Britain and Ireland are equally Germanic Anglo-Saxon stares, in what respect is one less valid than the other?

He's a Scot and the only people Scots hate more than the English are the Irish. When the Highlander James Macpherson was stealing Irish Gaelic culture and transplanting it to Scotland in his forged Ossian epic, his rival the Lowlander was John Pinkerton was arguing for the complete inferiority of the Celts and the sole value of the Lowland tradition (and in the great Scottish tradition of forgery, concocting an ancient Anglo-Saxon Scottish epic to counter Macpherson's fraudulent Celtic national epic). The well-known "ASF" who posts here and on /int/ is from the Macpherson School of Scottish Autism and the autist posting in this thread is from the Pinkerton School of Scottish Autism
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>>12115215
The Irish and English should team up and divide Scotland between each other and rape them all, I really can't stand the Scots and their larping.
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>>12115235
Deal. You lads get historic Northumbria and we get the Highlands and western islands. Anything between becomes an international No Man's Land
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>>12115247
An amicable and fair negotiation my good fellow, it's been a pleasure.
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>>12103681
they banned and suppressed cymraeg multiple times you unread dolt
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>>12107657
This isn't a gotcha because it's not surprising O'Connell was in favour of Anglicising the Irish. Daniel O'Connell was absolutely loathed by the majority of physical-force Irish nationalists from the mid-19th century on as a pied-piper who tamed and disarmed the Irish and lead them as lambs into the slaughter of the 1840s.

Here is an English Catholic writer, sympathetic to Irish suffering but not to Irish nationalism, praising O'Connell for taming the Irish:

>The great mission of O'Connell's life has not merely been to gain Emancipation or to secure Repeal, but to drill, instruct, guide, habituate and organise the people so that the instinct of physical force may be rooted out; so that they may be thoroughly masters of the art of peaceful warfare... so that they may never dream of the insanity of shouldering arms to attain whatever results the nation thinks just and reasonable and vehemently desires for itself.
Frederick Lucas, writing in The Tablet (an English Catholic paper), 1846.
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>>12115864
>If I am asked what would have been the very best thing O’Connell could do on that day of Clontarf – I answer: To let the people of the country come to Clontarf, – to meet them there himself, as he had invited them, – but, the troops being almost all drawn out of the city, to keep the Dublin Repealers at home, and to give them a commission to take the Castle and all the barracks, and to break down the canal bridge and barricade the streets leading to Clontarf. The whole garrison and police were 5,000. The city had a population of 250,000.
>The multitudes coming in from the country would, probably, have amounted to almost as many; and that handful of men between -! There would have been a horrible slaughter of the unarmed people without, if the troops would fire on them, – a very doubtful matter, – and O’Connell himself might have fallen. It were well for his fame if he had; and the deaths of five or ten thousand that day might have saved Ireland the slaughter, by famine, of a hundred times as many; a carnage of which I have yet to give the history.
John Mitchel, The Last Conquest of Ireland (Perhaps), 1861
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>>12100139
First of all that image is pretty misleading, at the start of the 20th century the Irish language in most of those green areas was relegated mainly to the older generations, children were being raised through English. It was believed back then that raising children through Irish language would make it hard for them to acquire fluent English leader in life, which would be an invaluable asset to them because the traditionally Irish speaking regions were all wracked by poverty and the only prospects for employment were moving to the English cities or emigration to other English speaking countries. Because of that older people while they spoke Irish amongst themselves made a point to only ever speak English to their children. The only people who actually really cared about the language were radical nationalists, ordinary people in Irish speaking regions simply wanted their children to have a future and in their eyes dropping Irish, a language associated only with the poverty they were trying to leave behind was a necessary part of this.
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>>12115889
I don't think this explanation is sufficient to be honest because it presupposes a kind of utilitarianism at odds with the Irish character. In my view there are psychological reasons behind the Irish hostility to the language >>12105276
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>>12104944
How can a man commit treason against a foreign country?
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>>12115889
>It was believed back then that raising children through Irish language would make it hard for them to acquire fluent English leader in life
This was true of diasporas elsewhere, like in America. My grandma's first language wasn't English but she deliberately spoke only English around my mom, aunt, and uncle. It's a shame, since a lot of languages have become endangered or died that way.
>>
Question: How is "Teach Yourself Irish" as a method of studying Irish?
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>>12115938
I think it's a combination of both, the utilitarian dimension, that being the strong social and economic incentives to adopt English, cannot be ignored but at the same time the psychological factors you speak of are what prevented the Irish from clinging on to the language in spite of the utilitarian reasons not to.
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>>12115247
>>12115235
Utterly based solution and proper vague ethnic boarders pilled
Greater England and Unified Gaeldom makes far more sense then wierd concepts like Great Britian or a Celtic Union
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>>12116123
Yes, that's fair and well-put. We're in agreement.
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>>12116075
Yes it's pretty typical of diasporas, but what makes the Irish context unique is that it was done not just by the diaspora but by entire communities still living within their own homeland. Such was the degradation, marginalisation and poverty that Irish language speakers lived in that they were unable to imagine a life where someone could be prosperous and successful in while maintaining the Irish language as their language of every day use. The Irish-speaking Irishman, whenever travelling outside of his rural village to the larger town to do his commerce would have found himself now in an English speaking world.
>"Whilst they may love the cadences, and mellowness, and homeliness of the
language which their fathers gave them, they yet see that obscurity and poverty
distinguish their lot from the English-speaking people; and accordingly, no
matter what the sacrifice to their feelings, they long for the acquisition of the
‘new tongue’, with all its prizes and social privileges. The keystone of fortune
is the power of speaking English, and to possess this power there is a burning
longing in their breasts that never varies, never moderates… The knowledge
which they thirst for in the school is, therefore, confined to a speaking use of
the English Language."
- P.J. Keenan, ‘Twenty-third Report of the Commissioners of National
Education in Ireland’, 1857-58
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>>12108489
>>12103018
In the summer of 1848, for example, the height of the Famine, there were 100,000 British soldiers and 13,000 policemen in Ireland, a country of 32,000 square miles, not to mention a vast number of armed fighting men belonging to Loyalist paramilitary secret societies like the Orange Order. These figures can't be explained except on the understanding of the British government that Ireland could only be held down with enormous force.

That the Irish had any rebellions at all in the 19th century is incredible.

Christine Kinealy's Repeal and Revolution: 1848 in Ireland (Manchester, 2009) is the source for these figures.
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>>12116255
Was that number because of the legacy of the 1798 rebellion?
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>>12116266
Well even back in the 18th century Ireland was a security state. The Irish Penal Laws against Catholics in Ireland prevented them from owning weapons, serving in the army, keeping a horse if a Protestant offered them five pounds for it (in other words having a horse serviceable for military purposes), travelling more than five miles from their houses, living in corporate towns, being educated abroad, employing a tutor or teaching in schools etc.

When these restrictions were lessened towards the end of the eighteenth century (given that the decline of the Stuarts meant Jacobitism was no longer a threat) there was the 1798 Rebellion soon afterwards. The government didn't want to take any more chances after that
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>>12103624
What's this baord's beef with Mr.Bean? I see him in every anti-bong post.
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>>12116255
Sorry I meant to say "over 100,000". The author gives that figure as a conservative estimate.

Anyway the idea that Irish actually loved British rule until 1916 is a massive Bong cope.
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>>12115864
>>12115887
>>12116255
>>12116531

O'Connell as we have seen was not in favour in armed resistance but his mass mobilisation of millions of Irishmen was utterly terrifying to the British government. Many foreign travellers to Ireland in the 1830s recorded a sense of alarm from the Protestant settlers that their time was running out. Many heard comments from Orangemen in particular that what Ireland needed was a civil war as soon as possible so the Catholics could be exterminated before their demographic advantage was too great (and they were explicit about wanting a war of extermination). When Daniel O'Connell in 1843 announced his plan to mobilise a peaceful army of Irishmen at Clontarf, the site where the High King Brian Bóruma had defeated the Vikings and freed Ireland in 1014, the government prohibited it, and he acquiesced. The alarm of the government and Orangemen did not subside. A war seemed likely, especially since O'Connell's acquiescence showed that constitutional methods could only take the Irish people so far. It was now clear force would have to do the rest of the work.

Fortunately for the government and the Orangemen but unfortunately for the Irish they didn't have to fight. Two years later, in 1845 Phytophthora infestans destroyed the main food source of the Irish poor and those 100,000 soldiers and 13000 police contented themselves with the easy work of suppressing riots and guarding food for export as it was shipped out of the country.
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>>12116760
>The Orange party, of which Ulster is the focus, manifests every day a greater desire to use violence than it displayed before. Formerly, the threats of physical force came rather from the Catholic and Radical party, from the popular masses, to which leaders and chiefs were alone wanting for an insurrection. For a long time the Irish nation believed that its deliverance and regeneration could only be obtained by a political revolution, which, bestowing on the government the disposal of rights and properties, would restore power and estates to the original possessors, or their heirs. These traditions, formerly familiar to the national party, were first weakened by long and useless efforts, and afterwards the success obtained by exertion and free institutions have completely dissipated the dreams of sudden and violent prosperity. But it seems that, at the moment the principle of force was abandoned by the Catholic party, it was adopted by the Orangemen. Nothing is more common than to hear members of that party express their ardent desire for actual civil war. “No union,” they say, “is possible between Papists and Protestants: it is a mere chimera to wish that they should dwell in the same land; one must absolutely expel the other, as truth drives away falsehood; it is a quarrel of life or death. Let a decisive engagement, let a war of extermination, settle the debate.” This language is not openly avowed by the Tory party, but many Tories use it. In fact, they think that, eventually, matters must come to this issue, and that it is better to have the fight at once; they feel power slipping from their hands every day, and they deem it wiser to commence the battle while they are still strong.
Gustave de Beaumont, Ireland: Social, Political, and Religious, vol. 2 (1839).

Back in the 1830s a French traveller had noted that there was a real if unstated unity of views between the genocidal Orange faction and a powerful section of the British establishment.
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>>12116866
In the 20th century, the fear caused by the increase of the Catholic population caused by a higher birthrate would once again lead them to provoke a civil war, except this time their enemies weren't starving, and their extermination plan utterly failed. I want to make it clear by the way that the Orange Order isn't a group of KKK-like hicks. Their connection with the highest echelons of British government and society is a matter for another thread.
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>>12116866
>He is a furious Orangeman: it was to be expected that such a character as his would range itself on the side of injustice, and delight in party rage. But on what principles! As this is a specimen of the height to which the spirit of party has reached, and the shamelessness with which it dares to avow itself, I will give you the quintessence of his conversation.
>‘I have served my king for nearly thirty years in almost every part of the world, and want rest. Nevertheless, it is my most ardent wish, which I daily pray God to grant, that I may live to see a ‘good sound rebellion’ in Ireland. If I were called out to serve again, or if I were to lay down my life the very day it broke out, I should make the sacrifice willingly, could I but be sure that the blood of five millions of Catholics would flow at the same time with my own. Rebellion!—that's the point at which I want to see them, at which I wait for them, and to which they must be led on, that we may make an end of them at once; for there can be no peace in Ireland till the whole race is exterminated, and nothing but an open rebellion, and an English army to put it down, can effect this!’
Hermann Fürst von Pückler-Muskau, Tour in England, Ireland, and France, in the years 1826, 1827, 1828, and 1829.

>Could Philip II have conceived a more mortifying disgrace for his great opponent, than that which he now experiences in Ireland — that the Protestant union, which has adopted the intolerant principles of that tyrant, is called the Orange Association? ... A Protestant lately argued with me on the necessity and advantage of a civil war, with as much composure as if he were speaking of having his coat brushed; and the extirpation of the heretics is the natural counter-cry of the Catholics.
Friedrich von Raumer, Letters from Ireland, 19 August 1835
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>>12117014
Anyway I'm off an a tangent but the terror-regime of the mid 19th century (and of course pretty much all preceding Irish history under the British) is part of why the Irish are not as interested as they should be in their cultural heritage. English is the language of America, which is to so many Irishmen a kind of promised land, were the Irish could be comfortable, respected, prosperous and admired, which is why the Irish associate the English language with better things and a brighter future.
>>
>>12117014
>Even Germans with their autism against Slavs were horrified at what the English were doing
Jesus, it was *that* bad?
>>
>>12107915
>nordcucks assimilate instead of dominate even when conquering
the memes write themselves
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>>12117065
In some respects the closest parallel to all of this is the rejection of Yiddish by the survivors of the Shoah. Many proud Ashkenazi Jews cringe when they hear the language of the Bovo-Bukh and Sholem Aleichem and act like it is a language without history or merit
>>
how come you're at it again scottish schizo? you were real quiet for a year or so
>>
>>12117083
Well it's always easier to condemn another nation's sins than your own, so there may be some hypocrisy in what the Germans say, but still, it was indeed pretty fucking bad. Read through this thread if you haven't already:

>>12083479
https://desuarchive.org/his/thread/12083479/
>>
>>12117083
The only travel writer I could find who (sort of) continued to blame the Irish for their misery after seeing the place for himself was a Prussian called Johann Georg Kohl who, while acknowledging the oppression of Ireland by England, felt he had to stick up for his fellow Germanics because he saw the Irish as the British version of Slavs. His account is pretty schizophrenic and he wavers in and out of who he blames for Irish poverty but even in his efforts to exonerate the English, British rule still comes out badly
>>
>>12117300
He was a conservative Anglophile who considered the Celts naturally "indolent, fickle, extravagant, and inactive" and didn't want to see a revolution in Ireland, but he still recognised the historic injustice which was palpably evident:

>There is no trace that a better system of cultivation, a happier race, or a higher social condition of the population, has ever existed here. Every thing wears the aspect of a misery old as the world itself; and it causes an oppressive feeling to find that here nothing has ever been produced but rags from rags, rocks upon rocks, ruins upon ruins, morass upon morass, and beggars from beggars. One cannot even look into the future with pleasure. There was more hope for the poor Greeks, under the domination of the Turks than for the Irish under the English. The Turks occupied Greece only by their camps and fortresses; but the English have struck the deepest roots into Ireland, and thus so perpetuated and secured the conquest and subjection of the people, that it is not pleasing to think in what way all this may be undone. What a revolution would ensue, if all those families who have become rich by disgraceful confiscations, by injustice, by force, by the very worst crimes, were again to become poor! O'Connell is not backward in naming such families in his speeches; and as the descendants of the ancient owners have not yet forgotten that they have lost all that the present possessors gained, and are for ever reckoning what rightfully belongs to them, and what the others wrongfully enjoy—what a revolution, I say, must ensue before this still unforgotten injustice could be all redressed!
Johann Georg Kohl, Travels in Ireland, 1842
>>
Where do you find all these primary sources?
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>>12117399
When reading academic books, look for the primary sources in the bibliography. If the author is not quoting from manuscript or archive material they're generally quoting from something that was edited and published long ago enough to be in the public domain. Check Archive.org, Gutenberg.org or Google Books to see if they have it.

If you want to go hunting for information relevant to your interests, go to Google Books, pick a date range (1700-1800 for example), and search a relevant keyword and it will turn up plenty.

Regarding Irish material UCC has a good website devoted to publishing primary sources relevant to Irish history: https://celt.ucc.ie/publishd.html
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>>12100139
>speaks Gaelic for a few minutes at work during break
>heads hom>"hey honey, what's on tv"
>proceed to watch 7 hours of BBC programmes
>rinse and repeat over 40 years with each generation
It's not hard to understand really.
>>
>>12117387
He concurred by the way with other authors on the uniqueness of Irish poverty, and what makes his testimony valuable as evidence is that the tone is one of contempt rather than pity:

>The fields adjoining the cabins are in the most disorderly state, and evidently tilled in the most negligent manner; they are usually without any fences, so that the desolate turf-bog mixes with them, or they are only surrounded by walls, the stones of which have all tumbled down one over another. I remember that I once pitied the poor Lettes, in Livonia, because they possess dwellings formed merely of round tree-stumps, with the interstices stuffed with moss. I pitied them especially on account of their low doors, and their small windows, and glad would I have been to see their chimneys better constructed. How many melancholy reflections arose in my mind when I beheld their scanty, rude, and wretched household! Now, may Heaven forgive me for my ignorance! I might have spared myself all this, had I known, as I now do, that it has pleased God to lay far greater privations on another people. Since I have seen Ireland, I find that even the poorest of the Lettes, Esthonians, and Finlanders dwell and live very respectably; and that, in ninety cases out of a hundred, Paddy would think himself as well off as a king, if he were dressed, lodged, and fed like these people. To him who has seen Ireland, no mode of life, in any other part of Europe, however wretched, will seem pitiable. Nay, even the condition of savages will appear endurable, and to be preferred.
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>>12117387
>this is the account of the Most Anglophile Prussian
>even he is naturally uneased by this
hahaha holy shit ok
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>>12117942
>A log hut carefully stuffed with moss—what comfort! Paddy's house is usually built only of clay; and how? Why, one shovelful of earth heaped upon another, with some field stones mixed up in it, till the walls are sufficiently high. A house regularly roofed with straw or bark—how delightful! But Paddy covers his cabin only with sods taken from his bogs. Small windows in the walls, neatly fitted with glass panes, or even half-transparent bladder, or talc, as here and there in Wallachia, and in some parts of Russia—bladders, good heavens, what a luxury! Paddy has houses enough in which there is not even the semblance of a window, and only one single square hole in the front, which serves at once for window, chimney, house-door, and stable-door, since light, smoke, men, pigs, all pass in and out through this hole.

>An intelligent French writer, De Beaumont, who has been in Ireland, and also among the North American Indians, assures us that the wants of these wild barbarians are in general better supplied than those of the poor Irish; and truly one might almost believe, that greater physical privations are endured by the Irish, than by the people of any other country, not only in Europe, but throughout the whole world. Indeed, look in whatever direction we may for a comparison, the Irishman stands alone, and his misery is without an equal. This can never be placed in too strong a light: for if it is true, that the misery of the Irishman is unique on this globe, every friend of humanity must feel himself called upon to devote his thoughts and his exertions to provide a remedy for the evil.
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>>12117952
>The Russian, it is true, is often the bondsman of a harder master than the Irishman; but his food and lodging are as good as he would wish, and there is no trace of Irish beggary about him. He feels happy in his bondage too, and is not, like the Irishman in his yearnings for freedom, continually biting his chains, or vainly attempting to break them. The Hungarians, also, do not belong to the nations which are most delicately lodged; but what good white bread does not the very lowest of them eat, and what wine does he not drink? Would the Hungarian for a moment believe that there are people enough in a Christian land who can afford to eat nothing but potatoes, day after day? The Servians and the Bosnians are reckoned among the poorest and most pitiable people of Europe, and the appearance of their villages is certainly not very inviting. But how well dressed these people are! If Paddy could only peep into a Servian dwelling, and see a Servian woman sitting there in her gala dress, and the men beside her with their arms, he would be apt to tell his countrymen that the ‘good people’ had taken him to a land where all the women looked like queens, and all the men like princes. Among the Tartars in the Crimea, little of luxury, wealth, or comfort is to be found; and this they seem to know, since they are for ever emigrating in vast numbers to Asia Minor. We pity them for being poor, we inveigh against them for being uncivilized, but still the men look like men. They have form, and shape, and a regular national costume; their huts are neat and clean, and kept in good repair. In what order are their orchards—how well kept their little steeds and their harness!
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>>12117963
>The Irish, on the contrary, appear altogether without form or shape, all edge and trimming. Except their rags, they have no national dress. Their dwellings are neither built nor arranged after any universal national plan, but as if thrown together by chance. Their entire household seems without order or method. There nowhere exists an old fixed form in any thing. As the Irishman clothes himself with rags, picked up here and there, so he has for a chair, now a real chair, now a block of wood, now a barrel; and for dishes he uses potsherds, now of one shape, and again of another. We have all this in Germany, it is true, among our beggars and poor, who are unable to comply with the demands of nationality. But with us and other nations lawless beggary is only the exception, in Ireland, on the contrary, it is the rule. Here is to be seen a people of beggars, the wealthy alone forming the exception; and this it is which is unique in its kind in Ireland, and to be found nowhere else.
>The African negroes are naked, but they have a hot sun. The Irish are not only without clothes, but they have also a wet and cool climate, if not a cold one. The American Indians live sometimes wretchedly enough, but they know not a better state of existence; and then, as they are hunters, they obtain many a good joint of roast meat, and make themselves many a feast day in the year. Christmas-day is the Irishman's only festival throughout the whole year, for on every other day he eats nothing but potatoes. This is not living like a human being, to whom nature has given an appetite and a stomach for various kinds of food; but rather resembles those inferior animals which are appointed to be fed exclusively on one root, or one species of berry or plant.
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>>12117964
>As there are nations who go naked, but who have also a hot sun to keep them warm, so there are others who are slaves, but to whom this slavery has been necessary for their existence; others who are poor, but who wish for nothing else, since they know nothing better; and others, again, whom a famine sometimes surprises, as it does the Irish, but who also possess a wild, tough nature, and, like wolves, can either endure a lengthened fast, or occasionally consume vast quantities of food. The Irish, on the contrary, are not slaves, sunk in such brutal, unfeeling resignation. They have a strong relish for freedom, and therefore feel the yoke more galling. They are an intelligent nation, and know well how to estimate the injustice inflicted upon them by the distorted laws of their country. They have not the brutish, tough constitutions of Hottentots, and if a famine arises in the land they either die of hunger or suffer the most appalling distress; whilst that they may still better understand, and thoroughly feel, all their misery and privation, they have before their eyes the greatest luxury and the most refined human condition the world has ever yet beheld— that of a wealthy English landowner.
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>>12100139
I just came here to say Ireland is great and England is an American colony. That is all.
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>>12117973
This fellow was I repeat of all the travel writers I found by far the least sympathetic to the Irish (aside from another German who went to Ireland in the 16th century) and the most keen to downplay their grievances and yet even the portrait he paints is horribly damning of British rule, even if somewhat unwillingly
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>>12101053
>For reason in native Irish culture we never developed big population centres, but lots of smaller ones.
Why is that? I genuinely have never been able to think of a satisfactory theory. Is it lack of Roman influence? Difference in Germanic culture? Is Ireland geographically unique in some way? Is the "Irish raider" meme actually so real that it prevented anyone gaining necessary resources for urbanisation?
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>>12101007
They’re damn locusts. Bloody Portuguese broke the planetary quarantine
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>>12118007
Not the anon you're replying to but I get the impression the Irish have always had a certain principled "primitivist" stance. This is a description of the "wild Irish", bear in mind dating from the destabilising and anarchic 300+ year long war between Gael and Gall:

>The King owns only the third part of it... the rest is in the hands of diverse lords, who are little more worthy of honour than our peasants. They say that the Pope is their King. And accordingly the other lords place upon their coins the keys and the three papal crowns. The Earl of Kildare is the chief lord of them all, and is a man of ability, and has all the civilization of England. Such also are the places on the sea-coast. The country in general is poor, except in fish, cattle, and poultry. An ox is worth a ducat, a pair of capons two pence, or half a carlino, of fish there are few that cannot be bought at a penny apiece; the people are very cunning and quick-witted, and very valorous in arms, because they are always exercised in wars between themselves; they live on oaten bread, and, for the most part, drink milk or water. The clothing of the men is a woven saffron shirt from the feet to the neck, shoes without heels, a cloak over it of a gay colour, a felt hat on the head, no other kind being used: they are all shaved except on the chin. The women are very beautiful and very fair, but slovenly. They wear the same saffroned shirts, with a red coif on the head à la carmagnola. They are very religious, but do not regard theft as a crime, and do not punish it. They say that we are brutal because we make private property of the gifts of fortune, and that they live in accordance with nature, because all things ought to be in common. This is the reason why there are so many thieves among them, so that there is great danger of being robbed, if not of death, in passing through the country without great precaution.
The letter of Francesco Chiericati (1479-1539) to Isabella d'Este Gonzaga.
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>>12118034
I like Hak a lot but with regard to the Irish he's guilty of the "lazy racism" for which he condemned the people who made "Uganda knuckles".
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>>12117983
>that was the most anglo sympathetic pov
Anglo Bros..... will we ever recover from these threads?
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>>12118189
You don't need to recover. We all need to move forward and forgive while always remembering those who suffered of whatever nationality. All men are victims and sinners. At the end of the day to quote Abraham Lincoln "we are not enemies but friends".
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>>12118189
>that was the most anglo sympathetic pov
Keep pretending that autistic guy is not cherry-picking.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbM_lDmThxc

A great song in honour of Michael Davitt, the hero of the agrarian campaign known as the Land War, who contributed more than few others to the liberation of the Irish people from their misery
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>>12110962
>>12108489
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iq0etndD0d0

Here's a cute Jewish (I think) girl singing about what you call a colossal failure. Do you have cute Jewish girls singing about YOUR nation's colossal failures? Didn't think so.

Here's another version of the song and more 1798 Wexford songs:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATucV4Ugqsw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MupvLuek904
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6wqbrPX-lA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zuhkXQKgPNk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LD16dnpTOKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9S7sEjUGjg

Our 'colossal failure' possibly has better songs than your nation's greatest success.
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>>12118556
>Anglos and kikes
Name a more iconic duo
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>>12118599
>Name a more iconic duo
The Jewish girl is singing an Irish song and is presumably therefore sympathetic to the Irish unless your point is that the Irish are Anglos
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>>12118556
An Ulster 1798 song (remember that before their corruption by Orangeism Ulstermen fought alongside their Catholic countrymen in 1798):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iahAYkwnHM

The melody was reused for the more famous 'Seán South of Garryowen'. Seán South was a very brave and principled man but unfortunately his death was in the IRA Border Campaign, the only Irish nationalist action which was actually practically pointless and stupid. It's only value was in continuing the unbroken chain of resistance to foreign rule in Ireland into the mid-20th century.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-CFG5cV9To
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>>12118659
Unfortunately there are no Irish-language 1798 songs to my knowledge because the rebellion was concentrated in the southeast and northeast of the country, which were already English-speaking at that time. If anybody knows of any Irish-language '98 songs please fill me in.
>>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYB9QQf90Oo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jI3yUPCNKc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vhPo1EHtA_0

Tráthnóinín déanach i gcéin cois leasa dom.
Táimse i m' chodhladh is ná dúisigh mé.
Sea dhearcas lem' thaobh an spéirbhean mhaisiúil.
Táimse i m' chodhladh is ná dúisigh mé.
Ba bhachallach péarlach dréimreach barrachas
A carnfholt craobhach ag titim léi ar bhaillechrith
'S í ag caitheamh na saighead trím thaobh do chealg mé.
Táimse i m' chodhladh is ná dúisigh mé.

Is mó buachaillín óg a thógadh go ceannasach,
Táimse i m' chodhladh is ná dúisigh mé.
Do cuireadh le foirmeart anonn thar farraige.
Táimse i m' chodhladh 'us ná dúisigh mé.
Go bheicfeadh an lá a mbeidh ár ar Shasanaigh
Ughaim ar a ndroim is iad ag treabhadh is ag branar dúinn,
Gan mise a bheith ann mura dteannam an maide leo.
Táimse i m' chodhladh is ná dúisigh mé.

Is éirigí, a chlann, agus gabhaig bhur n-airm chugaibh,
Táimse im' chodhladh is ná dúistear mé.
Is leagaigí sa tsrúil gach scrúille Sasanaigh,
Táimse im' chodhladh is ná dúistear mé.
Mura mairfeadh ach triúir bíodh ciú ins gach bail' agaibh
Ó Charraig na Siúire go ciumhais an Daingin thiar
Ardaigí bhur lain, tugaig fogha faoina Sasanaigh,
Táimse im' chodhladh is ná dúistear mé.

English friends, these words don't mean anything. Don't look up the translation because there is none, it's gibberish. The Irish language was invented by nationalists in the 19th century, it's not real, so there is no need to look them up. They don't mean anything. Just listen to the calm soothing tones. (:
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>>12112584
He's from Glasgow so he's probably an orange-irish mutt.



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