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Why did the Mongols try to invade Japan anyway? China never bothered as much
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>>11592586
Largely due to 3 issues.
-Traditionally, in the East Asian World Order, the Japanese were "Tributaries" to the Emperor of Japan. As any scholar of East Asia would tell you, the Tributary System basically is the geopolitical system of East Asia (and Vietnam/bits of the Steppes) wherein foreigners recognize the Chinese Emperor as ruler of All under Heaven while in Return, the Chinese Emperor befriended Tributary monarchs, gave them preferential access to trade, and at times even rode out for their defense. Its basically a system that was mutually beneficia since a) Justifies the Imperial Dynasty's claim's of being World Rulers and b) the "tributaries'" rulers enjoy being recognized by a world-powerful monarch (increasing their legitimacy at home), in addition to access to trading with the rich Chinese empire & its markest, and friends during emergencies.

Well the thing is the Yuan Mongs- like noveau riche steppeniggers that they were- utterly misinterpreted the Tributary system to literally mean the countries are real tributaries. Like, they actually are ruled by the Chang Emperor and get to be bossed around. This fucking insulted China's neighbors, which is made worse since the Viets, Koreans and the Japanese all did not recognize steppeniggers as Chinese Emperors and were disgusted at the notion of calling one of them as Huangdi (Emperor).

Of course, the Yuan Mongols took issue to this since its a grievous insult to their legitimacy, hence their invasions of Korea, Vietnam and Japan.

CONTD.
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>>11592641
CONTD/

-The other problem was Japan itself. In the 1300s, the Kamakura Shogunate that ruled Japan was losing its grip on the country, leading to local lords acting on their own initiative and power struggles in Kamakura itself. In addition to the loss of trade with China due to the chaos of the Mongol Invasions, a lot of Japanese lords became impoverished due to the slack in trade. As such, Nips took to piracy and plagued the coastlines of Japan, Korea, and China throughout the 1300s. The Kamakura Shogunate proved too inept to handle the threat, especially since a lot of coastal Jap lords were in on the piracy issue, with their own Samurai going on these raids.

As the Yuan Dynasty was trying to secure its legitimacy as a Chinese Imperial Dynasty- and also to restart trade in East Asia- the Mongols therefore saw pirates as fucking headaches.

- And so, with the Yuan therefore sent emissaries to tell Japan to recognize that its a tributary to the Great Yuan Empire, to recognize the Mongol Emperor as Emperor of China, for Japan to send appropriate tribute of slaves/treasures (and not the pleasant gifts they exchanged with the Chinese & Japanese monarchs in previous dynasties), and for Japan to stop piracy in the region.

When the Mongs ambassadors made these demands to Japan, they made it with such arrogance (OG Chinese Tributary missions were courteous "hi-hello" affairs between Monarchs) that it fucking insulted the Kamakura Shoguns. Coupled with the idignity of people they considered "barbarian" steppeniggers treating Japan as such, and the threats that the Ambassadors issued to Japan, the Shoguns had the Ambassadors beheaded, continued considering the Yuan as niggerous barbarian usurpers of the Chinese throne, and refused to become a tributary of Yuan China. Thus triggering the Mongol Invasions of Japan.
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>>11592641
>the Japanese were "Tributaries" to the Emperor of China.*

Sorry.
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After the Mongols invaded China, The great Khan declared he had the Mandate of Heaven, the traditional claim any Chinese emperor would say they had.
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>>11592709
After invading Korea and turning them into a vassal. They still didn’t get any political recognition or tribute from the Japanese. It seemed they didn’t recognise khans claim to the Mandate of Heaven despite recognising and paying tribute to Chinese emperors in the past

In 1266 Kublai Khan sent emissaries to Japan with this letter

>Cherished by the Mandate of Heaven, the Great Mongol Emperor sends this letter to the King of Japan. The sovereigns of small countries, sharing borders with each other, have for a long time been concerned to communicate with each other and become friendly. Especially since my ancestor governed at heaven's commands, innumerable countries from afar disputed our power and slighted our virtue. Goryeo rendered thanks for my ceasefire and for restoring their land and people when I ascended the throne. Our relation is feudatory like a father and son. We think you already know this. Goryeo is my eastern tributary. Japan was allied with Goryeo and sometimes with China since the founding of your country; however, Japan has never dispatched ambassadors since my ascending the throne. We are afraid that the Kingdom is yet to know this. Hence we dispatched a mission with our letter particularly expressing our wishes. Enter into friendly relations with each other from now on. We think all countries belong to one family. How are we in the right, unless we comprehend this? Nobody would wish to resort to arms
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>>11592715
The Japanese kept sending them back empty handed with no answer king of just hoping they’d drop it and ignore them. Multiple delegations later the leaders in Japan could tell this was gonna escalate so they prepared the defences on the most likely landing sites.

As to why Kublai Khan cared enough to invade japan? I imagine a mix of hurt pride and worry over a potential Japanese invasion of Korea. Korea is quite mountainous and the mongol campaign to secure it took decades. So the Japanese taking South Korea would be very hard to kick them out without massive casualties and wasted time and money and effort.

If Japan just acknowledged him as having the heavenly mandate and sent some token tribute they’d probably have left them alone. Not sure why they didn’t. Internal political disputes probably
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>>11592687
What were the usual gifts exchanged between Japan and China before the mongols took over?

Also, as a tributary to the old Chinese emperor. How much influence would the Chinese emperor have had over a tributary like Japan? Could they affect any real political decisions?
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>>11592720
>If Japan just acknowledged him as having the heavenly mandate and sent some token tribute they’d probably have left them alone.

Because its fucking unprecedented, that's why.
Khubilai Khan & the Mongols were the first "barbarians" to actually have a real claim to the Mandate of Heaven. Earlier attempts by Steppenigs either landed them with just half of China (like the Tuoba Wei and the Jurchen Jin)- ergo failing to claim the Mandate of Heaven properly- or were beaten off by the Chinese entirely. Ergo for someone that the Sinocentric world recognized as "barbarian" to have actually taken over all of China, what the Mongols did was akin to what the Germanics did to the Western Empire: the other Sinic-influenced states thought the Chinese were finished, and that usurpers stood in their place.

Hell it wasn't just Japan who thought this, all the East Asian world did. Before they got invaded by Yuan Mongols, the Koreans literally thought they were now the successors of China's legacy as the lands of their cultural superiors fell into the hands of barbarians, birthing what historians now call the "Sojunghwa" (Lit. Successor to China, aka Korea) Philosophy.
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>>11592750
Repostan my earlier reply to a similar question.

Diplomatically, the Tributary System consists of the following rituals.
>China meets you and tells you that if you wanna have intercourse with China you have to consider yourselves "vassals" first.
>You send tributary missions to China: this consists of your ruler symbollically acknowledging that he is a mere "vassal" to the the Chang Emperor, and that he is the ruler of the world.
>Once done, the Chinese Emperor grants the foreign ruler a formal Chinese title acknowledging him as the true ruler of his country who and enjoys the protection of China (this was either real or symbolical).
>The foreign ruler present his "tribute" (in reality a personal gift to the Emperor) while the Emperor in turn gives him a handsome gift in gratitude.

Gifts were usually something that was luxurious. For example IIRC the Tang Emperor once sent several bolts of silk, a Panda Skull, live Pandas, and Oriental Middle Eastern goods to the Japanese Emperor. In Return the Jap Emperor gave him a cedarwood statue, a few maiden-slaves, and high quality swords. Mere trinkets really compared to what the Mongols were asking.
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>>11592750
As for your second question.

>Also, as a tributary to the old Chinese emperor. How much influence would the Chinese emperor have had over a tributary like Japan? Could they affect any real political decisions?

No and Yes.

No in that the Chinese Emperor is not ever going to rule your country in actuality.

Yes in that "vassalhood" as a "tributary" of China grants local Asian rulers immense benefits. As stated earlier, the tributary system was a mutually beneficial process: the "vassal" acknowledged the supremacy of the Chinese Emperor, who in turn acknowledged a "vassal" ruler that he was the true ruler of his land.

Now although China might not actually rule the "vassal's" land, this has big political consequences. Just like how the Mandate of Heaven rests on the guy who de Facto rules China, when a "vassal" title is given by the Emperor, it means that "vassal" ruler is the true power in his land. Ergo, for a huge empire to acknowledge this boosts the credibility of the foreign ruler, especially vs. rival powers. And so foreign rulers liked going along with the "Tributary" system.

This however led to HILARIOUS consequences in Japan. In Japan, when Shoguns took power, the Chinese Emperor formally crowned them "King of Japan" in tributary missions because they de facto rule Japan, which horrified the Shoguns because the fiction in Japan is that they were "appointed" by the Japanese Emperor. But China continued doing it out of sincere confusion over what the Shogun is supposed to be.
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>>11592586
Because they were a Chinese tributary and yuan was new emperor of China
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>>11592586
Sigma grindset
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this is a good thread so i am bumping it
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see this thread, chinkspammer? just post proper explanation with good faith and people won't shit your thread. It's THIS easy to get respected, no need to pathetically spam bullshit no one bothered to reads.
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Isn’t Japan notoriously without any real natural resources?

What “tribute” would make conquering japan worth it to begin with?
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>>11592789
They should reframe the tributary system as the sugar daddy system.
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>>11592789
Since the invasions failed, I guess the Japanese simply stopped giving any tribute to the chinese thereafter?
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>>11595842
Actually japan paid tribute when the manchus took over. But ended all tribute in 1549 and never rejoined the tributary system after
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>>11592808
>This however led to HILARIOUS consequences in Japan. In Japan, when Shoguns took power, the Chinese Emperor formally crowned them "King of Japan" in tributary missions because they de facto rule Japan, which horrified the Shoguns because the fiction in Japan is that they were "appointed" by the Japanese Emperor. But China continued doing it out of sincere confusion over what the Shogun is supposed to be.
Lmao

I remember once reading (no idea what the source was or how credible it was) that when the Portuguese came to Japan they also assumed that the Shoguns were the real kings of some very unruly vassals, and saw the emperor as just a religious figure (like the Pope) and not as a real political or military leader.

Honestly the position of the emperor in Japanese society is truly fascinating, the fact that their royal house has remained constisten for over 2000 years is crazy. I guess Japan was the one place where people legit thought their rulers were divine in nature (up until MacArthur mogged Hirohito ofc).
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>>11595328
>Isn’t Japan notoriously without any real natural resources?
The only relevant natural resources during the middle ages came from agriculture and mining, both of which were present in Japan.
>What “tribute” would make conquering japan worth it to begin with?
Food as supplies, engineers as auxiliaries, rare metals as payment.
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>>11596132
>saw the emperor as just a religious figure (like the Pope) and not as a real political or military leader.

That’s literally how it was until Meiji? He basically just sat in his palace and people worshipped him while he didn’t get to make any big decisions

So probably less power than the pope at times
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>>11592767
>Sojunghwa
Oh wow, this is fascinating. From just a quick search, are you sure it was from the Yuan's this arose? Sojungwha seems to be a 17th Century philosophy taking place after the fall of the Ming, with similiar thoughts arising in Vietnam too.
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>>11596476
Sojunghwa began with the Yuan, but didn't have a chance to fully air out because the Mongols made Korea a Yuan province.
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>>11596555
Sojunghwa arose in the 17th century with the fall of the Ming. Do you have a source about how it originated in the 13th century? I'm pretty sure you're mixing up two different concepts. The first concept is that Korea/Goryeo/Joseon was a Sojunghwa because it was very Sinicized and "cultured," so it was like a Little China. The second concept is what you're talking about (the heir to China's legacy), which developed after the fall of the Ming as a passive aggressive form of revenge to assert that although the Qing wrecked Joseon, at least Joseon was "culturally superior" to the "barbarians" so it was Joseon not Qing that deserved to inherit the legacy of Ming/China--hence the name Sojunghwa. The second concept doesn't apply to Goryeo.
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>>11592767
>>11596555
>>11596963
Forgot to mention, the first concept was coined by Song dynasty scholars, so it predates the Yuan dynasty.
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>>11592687
>OG Chinese Tributary missions were courteous "hi-hello" affairs between Monarchs
What do you mean by this?
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>>11595890
>. But ended all tribute in 1549 and never rejoined the tributary system after
why?
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>>11597467
Nobody was in charge of Japan lol. Then in 1590s, it got into a war with Japan. Then in 1640s, China fell to Manchus. Since Manchus were barbaniggers, they weren't recognized as proper Emperors of China.
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>>11596132
>up until MacArthur mogged Hirohito ofc
The japanese must have seen MacArthur as a literal god slayer. I wonder how they felt about him.
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>>11598909
>Americans regard MacArthur as a conqueror of Japan but the Japanese did not take him that way. He was a liberator. Japanese regarded MacArthur as the highest human being, just below god," said Rinjiro Sodei, a political scientist who has written several books about MacArthur.
Holy shit, I'd never put any thought into this. I do know the Japanese Constitution is still called the MacArthur Constitution. I've now seen some contemporary accounts call him the 'blue-eyed shogun'. He seems to be regarded well by older people, and less acknowledged by youths.
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>>11592586
Bump, Great thread. it's just me or are chinese history threads usually good? if we ignore chinkspammer obviously.
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>>11600665
I'm usually really disappointed by them. Lots of unfunny shitposting.
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>>11598948
Honestly, from what I am reading, it does indeed seem that the Japanese would have gladly accepted MacArthur as the new shogun. But it wasn't meant to be, for obvious reason. Still, if WWII didn't happen during the contemporary age, I could have easily seen him to be enshrined as one of their legendary folk heroes, he just fits the bill of one.
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>>11600665
It's just you. Chinese threads are usually shit.
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>>11598948
>>11598909
The japs like MacArthur because even though the American regime he imposed was strict in certain regards, in others it was much more free than before. Plus the people saw more prosperity

HOWEVER, they quickly turned to hate him when he said in an interview he didn’t think the Japanese were ready for elections or democracy because they’re not civilised enough basically. This was just after he’d retired and wrote his book I believe





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