Why wasn't china able to defeat a hastly assambled expedition force with the very experienced soviet-armed 80% of their entire army?
yet another amerishit cope threadthe real reason the korean war is "forgotten" is that americucks got skullfucked by chinks
>>10842888>hastly assambled expedition force>very experienced>soviet-armed100% fantasy.
>>10842891It is forgotten because it was before televised war and at the time were america was nearly completely demobilized so there were only a tiny amount of americans present.
>>10842891The Battle of Chosin Resvour was a humiliation for China. An absolute humiliation.
>>10842895>no argumentOk, Chang
>>10842888Because human waves don't work against fixed macine gun positions.The west learnt this during WW1.
>>10842902>it was before televised warSo was WW2, retard.>>10842904>muh ratioHmm, so I guess WW2 was a humiliation for USSR
>>10842914>Muh ratios No one said anything about ratios. A superior force had a smaller force cut off, that smaller force had no meanungful fire support. Despite that the smaller force managed to not only break out, but destroy a significant portion of the larger surrounding force in the process. A fucking HUMILIATION by itself, no need to bring up the fact that the Chinese massively outnumbered the Americans.
>>10842888A better question is how come the UN- with all its superiority in armor, mechanized/motorization, air and naval superiority, got their shit pushed out of the North & later got stalemated by an entirely infantry army which moved on foot & horse and to whom the truck was a luxury.
>>10843118>A better question is how come the UN- with all its superiority in armor, mechanized/motorization, air and naval superiority, got their shit pushed out of the North & later got stalemated by an entirely infantry army which moved on foot & horse and to whom the truck was a luxury.By being outnumbered 1:3, besides, naval superiority was worthless and you completely overstimate air-superiority, it was only really good to destroy armor and bomb cities.
>>10842888>Why wasn't china able to defeat a hastly assembled expedition forceit was (sort of, kinda.) If you read in detail on the Chinese entry into the Korean war, it's like the French collapsing under the American blitzkrieg all over again. UN forces were hastily thrown back in disarray practically all the way back to the parallel by massive Chinese offensives until they were able to dig in, get their balls re-attached and mount proper defenses. A senior American official described it as the only time in his life he ever saw an entire American field army completely scattering and fleeing for their lives. And no, i'm not defending or sugarcoating China's performance in Korea like a CCP shill. Chinese losses were absolutely horrendous in comparison to UN casualties, and the war was ultimately a stalemate >>10843118Trucks would have been a literal godsend to the hordes of Chinese peasant soldiers. forget them being a luxury, winter gloves would have been a huge fucking luxury. This also brings a rarely talked-about subject to light within a rarely talked-about war, the utter disparity between Chinese and American soldiers who were in Korea. While American troops in Korea were just guys hoping to do a few years in the army to see the world then go home, with the occasional WWII veteran between them, Chinese soldiers were perhaps the most battle-hardened and experienced soldiers on the planet. Many of them had been fighting as guerillas for literally two decades against the Nationalists and Japs. A Chinese officer's memoir in Korea talks about how his first-ever memory as an infant was his mother carrying him during the Communist retreat in the Long March of the 1930s, he had spent literally his entire life in the thick of vicious warfare. some PLA soldiers had been in combat against assorted enemies for longer than some GIs had been alive.
>>10843155French collapsing under the *German blitzkrieg. sorry, i'm tired as hell
>>10843138>By being outnumbered 1:3, besidesSorry dear, the combined might of the UN outnumbered was evenly matched with the PVA when the Chinks began their First Phase Offensive, which was the one that hurled the UN back.In the Second Phase offensive, the Changs had 700,000 to the UN's 400,000. In paper that's hardly an advantage for a WW1 Tier Army facing up against the mechanized might of the UN.>it was only really good to destroy armor and bomb cities.And harass supply lines.And destroy enemy air support.And provide CAS (the Korean War literally saw the birth of American CAS)And bomb the enemy forces as they moved about as the many, many Korean war gun-cams show us.Surely we are not coping in this thread, captain?
>>10842904funny thing about the Chosin battle, the Chinese actually estimated and claim that they inflicted lower casualties on the Americans than what really happened. the US suffered about 17k casualties, but the Chinese claim the mutts only had 13k. It's very unusual, especially for a propaganda-fed society like China, to claim fewer rivals died and were wounded than actually were when both sides almost always claim that more casualties were inflicted than really were. and no, it wasn't an absolute humiliation. The UN forces ended up withdrawing and the Chinese occupied the territory they had been defending. >>10843138>naval superiority was worthlessmy ass. Large and accurate volleys of US naval gunfire at Chosin was literally the only thing keeping the Chinese army group from overrunning the reservoir while American evacuations were taking place. it's far from worthless, it's invaluable.
Why wasn't the UN able to defeat an opponent against which they had complete air, armour, logistical and naval superiority?
>>10842904>The Battle of Chosin Resvour was a humiliation for China. An absolute humiliation.The Korean War literally cemented the PRC's legitimacy as a Chinese government. When the PRC was founded in 1949, the people of China still had their doubts about Mao and his lovable gang of rogues, thinking they might be as nominal as the 1911-28 RoC was. But when the average Chang saw UN forces- among almost all of CHina's major colonizers- getting hurled back by a ragtag Chinese army, the PRC's "Mandate of Heaven" so to speak went up to 11 and the Chinese peasantfag practically began to worship the government similar to the manner legitimate Chink Dynasties get heralded by the masses.It didn't matter if a lot of Chinese died fighting the UN in the Korean War. All the Chink Pleb cared about is that after a century of humiliation, modern Western armies fleeing from a Chinese army was absolutely intoxicating. It went to their fucking heads.In contrast to the West where it is termed as a forgotten war, the Intervention in Korea is part of the founding Mythos of modern China. Their media, military culture, and pop culture couldn't shut up about it.
>>10843241Because the climate and terrain of Korea are very good at negating those things while the Chinese had a massive manpower advantage.
>>10843263Yes, propaganda is very effective against illiterate peasants. Not sure what that has to do with the war...
>>10843241Mostly because they were fighting Korean peasants who had never seen a gun in their life until they were forced to fight at gunpoint and the worst army of America that had grown lazy fucking whores in Japan.Not that I'm getting involved in the national pissing contest ITT; the war was a stalemate who cares
>>10843263Also, pretty sure Mao locked it when via land redistribution... But whatever
>>10842914>world War 2>a global war causing destruction for all of Europe and Asia>Korea>a proxy civil war with international support for both sidesWhy be disingenuous? Of course world war 2 is more memorable since it affected litteraly everyone.
>>10843288>"the chosin reservoir was a total humilitation">>10843212 explains in detail how it wasn't a humiliation in practical military terms>>10843263 explains how it wasn't a humiliation in psychological/political terms>"not sure what that has to do with the war..."Amerimutt posters are always based for all the wrong reasons and cringe for all the right reasons
>>10842888Chinese are bad fighting.Their commanders are good but their troops are cowardly and weak. They relied on human waves where disparate battalions would assault a position and take hefty losses only to have another army corps do the same until the enemy needed to resupply.The Chinese in fact ran away from Turkish forced in Manchuria and Korea because the Turks carried swords and always overstocked in ammunition. The Turks understood it was their capacity to kill which limited them, and so they always made sure they could demolish an entire Chinese army before sending their squads out on patrol. China today still will not release an official tolls on their battles with the Turks because they were utterly humiliated by them.American accounts says the Turks were wild in battle and always sought to fight up close with knives and swords because they could overpower the Chinese. >>10842891I don’t think the Americans ever traded inefficiently with the Chinese.>>10843212It was a humiliation because the Chinese lost numerous men to forces surrounded and outnumbered and with little supply.
>>10843306No anon >>10843212 does not explain that Chosin wanst a complete humiliation.>Hurr we took the land! Three surrounded American divisions, surrounded by a Chinese Feild army (15 divisions) without significant air or arty support not only broke out (embarrassing) but smashed 3-6 Chinese divisions in the process (humiliating). Chosin was objectively a humiliation. >Mutt South African, try again.
>>10843312You went full schizo.
>>10843312>but their troops are cowardly and weakdon't post about things you know nothing about, Turkroach. the average gook peasant soldier was retarded, but he had massive balls. During the battle of Kapyong, for instance, Chinese soldiers were told that they would be charging straight into their own side's artillery fire, and they did it completely enthusiastically. Chinese sources and diaries from the Korean war outline very clearly that most of them fully expected to either win, or be killed, no other way around it. >the Chinese lost numerous men to forces surrounded and outnumbered and with little supplythe same can be said for the Chinese forces themselves. The American, once again, enjoyed complete air and naval superiority in a theatre and battle where naval shelling often decided the outcome of combat. The Chinese also lacked very specific yet vital elements of basic gear, like proper winter clothing. Huge Chinese losses in 1950-51 were indeed not from combat, but from frostbite. But none of that matters, because in the end, the Chinks got the territory that they wanted, and the UN did not.
>>10843349>Conflating the war with the Battle A common strategy for the disingenous.
>>10843335>Three surrounded American divisions, surrounded by a Chinese Feild army (15 divisions) without significant air or arty support not only broke out (embarrassing) but smashed 3-6 Chinese divisions in the process (humiliating).you know what's more humiliating than autistically obsessing over casualties as the sole determinant of anything pertaining to warfare like Amerifarts so often enjoy doing? losing the land you are fighting to defend, which the Americans did. The Chinese acheived their objective by the end of Chosin no matter how much higher their casualties were. the Americans did not. humiliation. and as >>10843263 explains, the average Chinese did not give a blue fuck about how many men they lost, the concept of high casualties was/is utterly irrelevant to the PLA. The only fucking thing the Chink horde cared about was whether or not that land the yankees and capitalists occupied was theirs.
>>10843288>>10843288Nigga the Central Military Commission didn't even have to make shit up. Sometimes they just showed Western newspapers' headlines imported from Hong Kong, and often had them read by communist LGUs in town squaresIt didn't help that MacArthy Era hysteric News Media embellished the Chinese Forces in Korea as some apocalyptic force of neo-Mongol barbarians out to engulf Western Civilization. Peasants got a kick out of it.>>>10843295The peasants sure. But not the urbanites, nor the student-intellectuals. They kissed the ground Mao's feet trod after Korea.
>>10843357doesn't matter if the factors i mentioned are equally applicable to both the Chosin battle and the war as a whole. Chinese troops lost way, way more men to frostbite than they did to UN bullets and bombs in Chosin.
>>10842888What? It was the Norks that were Soviet armed and trained, the Chinese were literally just a horde of dudes with whatever weapons they had scrounged up over the years, only in 1952/3 when there was basically no fighting did the Soviets substantially support them.
>>10843349>because in the end, the Chinks got the territory that they wanted, and the UN did notYeah, except South Korea which they completely failed to take in the Spring of 51' of course; convenient of you to forget that. Seeing people still try to frame this war as anything but a stalemate is always comical.
>>10843371>Muh ratios Your the only obsessing over ratios. The humiliation is having a smaller force cut off and surrounded and then having that smaller force not only break out but smash a signification portion of your own formation in the process. Were it any other army - Germans, Russians, Japanese - it would have been a great American humiliation, 3 divisions destroyed! 30 000 prisoners! But because of Chinese ineptitude they managed to completely fuck it up. That's the humiliation you coping retard.
>>10843118Because MacArthur was a dumbass, as usual.Remember that this is the guy who lost to the Japanese despite outnumbering them 2:1 and only ever won battles by having the red carpet laid out for him by the navy.
>>10843349>the Chinks got the territory that they wantedLast time I checked, South Korea still exists and is larger than it was when the war started. All the Chinks did was prevent their side from being totally overrun, they didn't 'win' anything.
>>10843371>losing the land you are fighting to defendWhat are you talking about, South Korea still exists. The Chinese attempt to take it failed epically.
>>10843397>>10843407>>10843420i literally said it was a stalemate once, but since i didn't indicate that this post >>10843155 was ever mine i'll let it slide. Sure, they failed to take South Korea, but most Chinese objectives in the war were achieved. They succeeded in propping up the North Korean commie puppet state to ensure that the capitalist world did not border or get too close to China. That is a W, even though they took an equally big L in not completely obliterating the ROK. >>10843400no, no i'm not obsessing over ratios. i'm also pointing out that the Chinese gave zero shits about casualty ratios, only the outcome. >The humiliation is having a smaller force cut off and surrounded and then having that smaller force not only break out but smash a signification portion of your own formation in the process>But because of Chinese ineptitude they managed to completely fuck it up. That's the humiliation you coping retardand you truly, honestly think either the PLA or the Chinese people gave a shit about the bad semantics and tactics they used? and you call ME the coping retard? once again, i repeat, China didn't care how many divisions it sacrificed to take Chosin, the singular fucking thing mattered to them is that they fucking took it and that UN forces withdrew. and you three merry morons would also do well to remember that my initial replies were on the subject of the battle of the Chosin Reservoir, not the war as a whole, of which the Chinese captured, and which remains in North Korean territory to this day. cope and sneed.
>>10843420The Chang objective in the Korean war was to save NK's ass and maintain the buffer betwen Western presence in the peninsula w/ China. Period.Its the UN that had ever shifting objectives during the war.>1950: Save South Korea!>1951: Oh hey, China seems to pussy to act, let's liberate all of the Korean Peninsula under the SK govmt.>1952 onwards: Save South Korea!
>they [China] have the strongest armyDo the Chinks unironically think their army was more powerful than the Soviets? No one who knows anything about military history could possibly conclude that, what is this fucking cope.
>>10843425>>10843430If you're on the attacking side, victory implies taking something from the other side. 'Not getting btfo in retaliation' isn't a win.The Chinese weren't being defensive, they had always planned to intervene if the invasion backfired and the Americans showed up, Stalin had demanded this be agreed to before letting Kim attack in the first place.
>>10843446>If you're on the attacking side, victory implies taking something from the other side. 'Not getting btfo in retaliation' isn't a win.all of this equally applies to the UN, which took an equally large L and W as the Chinese did. which brings me back to the fact that i fucking agree with you that it was a fucking stalemate in which both sides won and lost something significant
>>10843455A stalemate is a tactical situation but isn't really an applicable concept strategically. If the attacking force isn't accomplishing anything, they're not winning; the defenders win by default simply by keeping what they have.If the Chinese "won" in Korea then by the same logic the US "won" in 1812 despite accomplishing absolutely nothing simply because they repelled the British counterattack against them. I would prefer to say that in both cases, these were losses.
>>10843465>If the attacking force isn't accomplishing anythingbut the attacking force did accomplish something. North Korea's existence as an independent state is continual proof of this. The fact that the Chinese lost a lot of what they wanted doesn't take away from their accomplishment of bailing out the DPRK. >the defenders win by default simply by keeping what they haveand what the defenders had was almost all of Korea, stretching right up to the Chinese border, a large chunk of which they promptly lost. so i reiterate, stalemate in pretty much every sense of the word.
>>10843465The US wound up with a free hand in North America after 1812, with no hope that any garrison across the border could be a strategic threat to them. They used that free hand to establish the border moving west, over the next 50 years or so. China gained no such free hand in Asia.
>>10843241Because dumb politicians didn't trust MacArthur.Next question.
>>10843481What? The ROK did not originally hold any territory in North Korea, they held everything south of 38 degrees north, that's what they were defending. As it worked out, they lost Ongjin and Kaesong but gained large chunks of Gyeonggi and Gangwon provinces, a net gain in territory. So the communists didn't just fail to destroy South Korea, they ended up with less than they started with - oh, and, of course, millions of their soldiers and civilians dead, though they obviously didn't care about that.
>>10843499why should they? Macarthur was a General Custer-tier retard sperg
>>10843488That has nothing to do with whether they accomplished their objectives in the War of 1812, which they 100% failed to do.
Just so we're all clear on how much of a joke MacArthur was.
>>10843502>The ROK did not originally hold any territory in North Koreathe UN initially drove up to the point where they were right on the southern Chinese doorstep, which spooked the Chinese who drove the UN all the way back to the halfway point of Korea by the end of the war.
>>10843518What's your point? Anything north of 38 wasn't the territory they were defending, it was seized in retaliation, it's not the same thing.
>>10843499The politicians screwed up in thinking the chinks wouldn't intervene. Once they did, the goal had to become a negotiated settlement. Not much to see beyond that.
>>10843508That was their objective though. They wanted a free hand, and got it. Forever.
>>10843530That's not their objective, just cope. Yanks have made up a million excuses to try to pretend that what they tried to do wasn't their actual objective in order to insist they've never lost a war. It's horseshit.Their objective was to seize the remaining British colonies in North America. They totally failed. Therefore they lost the war. Everything else is irrelevant to this question.
They had a 3,000 man standing army. That's a strange way to be an offensive juggernaut, no? History doesn't support your assertion. They got exactly what they wanted.
>>10843548Their ineptitude and unpreparedness is irrelevant, and you're blatantly wrong.
>>10843553You're coping, common enough in those who ignore historical reality.
>>10843525>Anything north of 38 wasn't the territory they were defending, it was seized in retaliationthis is where my knowledge of Korea sort of tapers off. I'm pretty sure that given the chance, the UN would not have voluntarily let it go. Why should they allow North Korea to continue existing if they have every reason and hypothetical opportunity not to do so?
>>10843425>and you truly, honestly think either the PLA or the Chinese people gave a shit about the bad semantics and tactics they used? and you call ME the coping retard? once again, i repeat, China didn't care how many divisions it sacrificed to take Chosin, the singular fucking thing mattered to them is that they fucking took it and that UN forces withdrew.Anon, the Chinese military operations in and around Chosin was an absolute fiasco and militarily a humiliation. Saying this isnt the case because Chinese spin-doctors were able to make it palpable for the Chinese people is cope.
>>10843560That's...not the point. Of course they wouldn't have let it go, but the point is that that territory wasn't what the attackers were trying to seize - indeed, it was the attackers' own territory. All the Chinese throwing the Americans out of North Korea accomplished was getting the communist side back to square 1, ie retaking the territory they'd started with. Their subsequent second (and third, and fourth) attempts to conquer South Korea were also totally repulsed, so in the end they accomplished, due to territory loss, literally less than nothing.
>>10843577Indeed, although the most ruthless PLA generals will always claim it was worth it because despite all the Chinks that died, they did win the battle, and to the heartless fucks in the CPC that's all the matters, human lives are worthless to them.
>>10843516Your doing the thing where you pretend Mac's 150 000 men were all American and totally were not poorly trained local militia?
>>10843589It's worth noting that a lot of those Japanese forces were only there for part of the battle, particularly the end. The initial invasion force was just two divisions; one of them then left for Java, then later they brought in two more divisions to crush the Bataan holdouts.Those two initial Japanese divisions had already won the battle in like a month against much larger enemy forces.
>>10843577>Anon, the Chinese military operations in and around Chosin was an absolute fiasco and militarily a humiliation. Saying this isnt the case because Chinese spin-doctors were able to make it palpable for the Chinese people is cope.Anon, implying that China felt humiliated whatsoever at fucking up strategically while managing to get the UN to piss off out of Chosin is a cope, because in the end, they still managed what they set out to do even if their casualties were probably way higher than they needed to be. Is it still a humiliation if the people meant to be humiliated, don't feel humility? no, not really. >>10843578yes it is the point? >All the Chinese throwing the Americans out of North Korea accomplished was getting the communist side back to square 1, ie retaking the territory they'd started withthat's kinda what they wanted? The main Chinese factor in throwing away the lives of a million of their men was to keep a load of useful idiots that weren't them (DPRK) bordering the Capitalist world, and they got that.
>>10843516>Just so we're all clear......that the US government and military gave up on holding the Philippines long before the first shot?
>>10843610No, the Japanese called a pause and reinforced, then pushed again to the attack, severely disrupting their initial timeline.
>>10843618Right but that implies the Chinese aren't implicated in the KPA invasion of the ROK, ie they aren't aggressors and therefore we should measure their success or failure by different metrics than the Norks. But that's not the case - Kim Il Sung was only allowed to attack by Stalin because Mao supported him and promised to bail him out if the Americans intervened (which, however, everyone assumed they wouldn't). The Soviets, Chinese and North Koreans all had the same goal: destroy South Korea. It's just that, initially, it was only the North Koreans directly attempting to do so, with the Chinese and the Soviets acting as a dual-layered tripwire to dissuade the Americans from intervening (and thus guarantee a communist victory).
>>10843631They called a pause because they'd won. The underestimated what it would take to neutralize Bataan, but the very fact MacArthur had to Alamo at Bataan at all was because he'd lost the battle and couldn't repel the invasion so he was making a last stand.
>>10843618>>10843610>>108435851. They failed to meet their objective - destruction of 1st Marine Division and X Corps2. They can claim whatever they want, losing three divisions today means you dont have three divisions tomorrow the consequences of which is incalculable. Had it not been for the dogshit staffwork the Chinese could very well have destroyed those 3 American divisions which would have made the UN's position untenable leading to much greater gains over the long run. Thats the entire point. Chosin could have been a knockout blow against X Corps and leave an entire flank of the UN's advance absolutely shit shattered, but instead it was a colossal and expensive fuckup and X Corps remained a cohesive fighting force allowing them to reform and stop the Chinese advance.
>>10843621The Navy did, the Army didn't.
>>10843610Again, anon the majority of the Forces on the ground were comprised on low-quality local units and were spread across the entire island cluster and even before they arrive Mac had decided on concentrating on Bataan and was in the process of forming his units up on the peninsular hence those two Japanes divisions were only being faced off by a mixed brigade of cavalry and light tanks. Here is an indepth analysis of the campaign https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpVJB1XWWLghttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YetDRYOj9uk
>>10843654It's not about the staffwork. The Chinese didn't have the capacity to destroy X Corps because they didn't have sufficient heavy weaponry, had effectively no logistical support and had no (effective) winter gear at all. They pressed on with it anyway because the CPC doesn't value human life whatsoever.However, it is undeniable that while they didn't destroy the Americans, they did kick them out of northeast Korea, never to return. Tactically, it was still a win, it just didn't have the long-lasting strategic impact that destroying those American forces would have had (ie, without X Corps it's almost certain the 8th Army would have been penned into Busan again).
>>10843679Yeah I watched that. Did you miss the part where MacArthur switched to an active defence, until he realized he had no chance of actually stopping the invasion, then hastily withdrew to Bataan?
>>10843651Calling off the attack and having to reinforce means "won"? Er, no. Everywhere else, the Japanese attacked constantly, no matter what (see Singapore). They would have in the PI as well, but they'd been stymied by the defenders, who disrupted their timeline and deployments significantly.
>>10843662They did actually. The intial plan called for the Americans to hold out on the Bataan peninsular and prevent the Japs taking Manilla bay while the local Phlip army did most of the fighting across the island chain. The advanced Japanese timeline meant they ended up amending this plan and were caught while amending it as local forces were still many years away from being able to fight on their own and the local US forces were still desperately short on key equipment. Also, US Navy gave up the country almost immediately and left for Australia.
>>10843662Marshall was the Army, and he gave up before the first shot. He put Eisenhower on the problem after the first shot, to confirm his original analysis
>>10843691Yes, when he realized that the single best indigenous unit - that cav unit - was no match for the Japanese and thus his regular local units were going to be useless.
>>10843686>It's not about the staffwork. The Chinese didn't have the capacity to destroy X Corps because they didn't have sufficient heavy weaponry, had effectively no logistical support and had no (effective) winter gear at allThats staffwork anon. The responsibility of staff officers is to muster resources where they are most needed.
>>10843698Marshall's opinion wasn't really relevant because of MacArthur's celebrity and the Air Force, which also wanted to hold the Philippines so they could bomb the Japanese. If Marshall had had his way they wouldn't have planned to beef up the Philippines' defences at all, but because MacArthur wanted it, he got it, though the Japanese invaded before he got everything he requested.
>>10843713>Marshall's opinion wasn't really relevantWe can safely ignore you now, anon.
>>10843713I feel sorry for those Guardsmen who got sent there.
>>10843712They can't do what it's not physically possible for them to do. You can't blame them for not having things they....didn't have. They didn't have proper winter gear. They didn't have a developed logistics train because they had barely any trucks and no air cover. But those in charge didn't care, so they pressed the attack anyway.
>>10843722If you think MacArthur didn't get things his way purely because of who he was, you're delusional.I'm not saying they should have listened to him - they absolutely should not have - but they did nevertheless.
>>10843727>You can't blame them for not having things they....didn't haveChina was SWIMMING in arms and munitions anon. The Commies inherited the arsenals of not only the Japs who surrendered in '45 but also the extremely well supplied Nationalists.
>>10843740Small arms are not what they needed. What they needed was artillery, armor, and most importantly, trucks with which to haul ammo, food and such to the front. They had virtually none of these things, and those they did have were deployed to the Cheongcheon River because there was a better road network there. The PLA around Jangjin were literally just a horde of dudes with small arms with no heavy weapons, no supply lines, and no backup.
>>10843759>Small arms are not what they needed. What they needed was artillery, armor, and most importantly, trucks with which to haul ammo, food and such to the front. They had virtually none of these thingsAnon I swear to god if you are going to force me to do a deep dive into the lend-lease the Nationalists got...
>>10843759>>10843727Just to be clear, I am not disputing that the Chinese units are Chosin were under equipped. Rather I am saying that they were under equipped because of shitty Chinese staff-work and that this is what lead to it being a clusterfuck.
>>10843767You can sit here and insist they captured all this shit from the Nationalists and therefore they were perfectly well equipped but this literally isn't true. The PLA at the Jangjin reservoir had (nearly) no artillery and were operating so far beyond their logistics lines they were effectively cut off from all support except for the forces right on either side of the reservoir itself, since these forces controlled the roads leading back to the border. In any case they lacked proper food supplies and winter clothing, which is why do many of them starved/froze to death. You don't seriously think all the Chinks that died in that battle were killed by the Americans do you? They found entire companies of Chinese troops that had frozen to death because they had no parkas, no boots, and no tents to shelter under, but refused to seek these things because they had been ordered to attack at all costs.They also, for the record, didn't deploy tanks in anything but token one-off fashion until 1952, and these never really saw action because they were kept in reserve to counter an anticipated American attack on Pyonggang that never happened. The closest they got to using tanks en masse is when those tank units got bombed by the air force during the Battle of Triangle Hill.
Honestly the amount of Tankie COPE and seething in this thread is funny. People trying to make PLA seem like the 'underdog' when they have vast manpower, a full army since they never really demobilized much post civil war ending since there was still many ROC mop up operations to be done.Meanwhile a expiditionary force of Americans + UN troops BTFO'd them and their NK allies multiple times. They really do start basedfacing because it devolved into a slugfest in which china was willing to literally send more of its men to take any Pyrrhic victories it could get and they think its some big 'own' against the US.In reality what happened is the US and its allies still tired from WW2 and worrying more about the USSR in Europe didn't want a protracted war in which the CCP being Psychopathic stubborn dickheads were at that point just to ensure NK stayed a buffer state willing to conscript its whole male population to die in that war if it meant they wouldn't lose make no mistake of this. Whereas the US has to worry about elections, the public opinion, moral because its not using simply "US VS THEM" propaganda on retarded peasants like ccp was. If the US had that same level of insane stubbornness level in their quest to win at all costs it would commit far more manpower than the tiny fraction the US actually sent and cause an accidental genocide of the Chinese male population. The war boils down to "Who care more about Korea being a total victory" and evidently china did and the US didn't so they comprimised which China took home and to this day cries about how amazing they were in the Korean war despite taking insane losses while having the easiest reinforcement rate ever, if the allies want more manpower they need to ship them from other continents, china has to just bring them to their border.
>>10843874>If the US had that same level of insane stubbornness level in their quest to win at all costs it would....... have nuked China, as was asked by a certain man with a funny pipe. >asked so insistently he almost caused a constitutional crisis
>>10843874the only advantages China had in the entire war were proximity, manpower and experience; the UN had quite literally every other advantage, so I'll try to be understanding when I hear China didn't quite manage a 1:1
>>10843516you're the retard here
>>10843118the answer youre looking for is shit generals.
>>10843407>South Korea still exists and is larger than it was when the war startedThey lost Onhjin and Haeju though. Pretty sure the DPRK got slightly bigger.
>>10843530their objective was to annex Canada which they failed to do.
>>10843312The Turks fired at and killed retreating ROK soldiers thinking they were Chinese. That was the big "victory" they keep talking about
>>10843465But the US did win 1812, they humiliated the British in the south
>>10844874Do you not have eyes?
>>10843874>if>if>we could haveBut we didn't. The Chinese secured a buffer in their neighborhood and prevented the UN forces from achieving all their objectives. No amount of cope about "they were crazy they didn't let us win" will change that fact. All that matters in war is winning, everything else is cope. The Chinese were willing to do what it took to win and the decedent American imperialist empire was not.
>>10843884>dude I could have totally won this limited proxy conflict over a small peninsula if I was allowed to commit a nuclear holocaust with 10 times the casualties of ww2 against civilians in an entirely different countryAbsolute state
>>10844874Are you blind? The area they lost is clearly smaller than the area they gained, you're letting the water confuse you.
>>10843155>Chinese soldiers were perhaps the most battle-hardened and experienced soldiers on the planet.LMAO stopped reading there
>>10844931>we won one battle therefore we won the warAre you retarded?
>>10844953Except China didn't actually win, Chang. You just tell yourselves that to justify getting a couple hundred thousand of your men killed for Kim Il Sung of all fucking people.
>>10843874>US and its allies still tired from WW2lolwut. tired of bombing civilians unopposed?Amount of seething and coping in that post is astonishing.
>>10842888>war ends in the most obvious draw ever recorded in the 20th century>both sides keep telling everyone that they won almost 70 years later
>>10845219if it's a draw the side with the better k:d wins
>>10845268>it's a draw... but someone must win!Fucking mutts, I swear!
>>10843455>which applies to the UNNot really since the UN wanted to halt at the 38th but MacArthur ignored the orders and went on anyway. Which in effect got China involved in the first place.
>>10845098bro I'm not even Asian, I'm just not a retard
Because he unironically teleported behind them.
>>10843504>Custer tierOther than the event that led to his death (not listening to the Indian scouts) Custer had a really good military career
>>10842891thisthe Korean War was what made the Chinese people religiously follow Mao until the Cultural Revolution
>>10845370>worship someone who throws your lives away like candy to save his good friend Kim Il fucking SungThe Chinese are an unsalvageable people.
>>10843118>how come the UN didn’t beat the ChineseBecause of a variety of factors. Mainly:A 1:3 ratio of troopsThe Chinese transported there troops via land, not seaThe Americans refused to bomb Chinese infrastructure in Manchuria, so as to not provoke a direct war with either the Chinese or SovietsArmor being thrown against soldiers who may or may not be armed with AT rockets is a recipe for failureKorea is mountainous, which favors infantry and disadvantages armor
>>10845385yeah bro, I'm sure your opinion would have gained their support a US-led invasion in their neighbourhood
>>10845447To add onto this, the Americans where forced to work with limited manpower and had to transport any additional troops available (most troops where already demobilized by the start of the Korean War) across the Pacific Ocean. An offensive to push the Chinese out of Korea would’ve been a logistical nightmare, and may have crippled the UN coalitions ability to maintain defensive lines on the Chinese border.
>>10844198Terrain suits the defender and negates most of the UN advantages in fire-support and artillery>tanks are useless in mountains>artillery is equally ineffective on mountains because LMAO reverse-slopeAnd the UN advantage in the air is not as extreme as many would try to pretend, CAS couldn't just loiter over the front line which affects its ability to strike precisely. Strategic bombing was their only out and out advantage and even then it was over-stated because NK had no industrial base to diminish and since the NK and CN armies were based on infantry and largely static they didnt consume the kind of raw tonnage that you need roads and trains for. Terrain and climate were great equalizers and largely dictated the outcome of the war. Were the war conducted on more even terrain and in a more moderate climate then it would likely have been a UN steamroll because of the disparity of firepower, armor and mechanization would easily overcome the CN and NK advantage in mass.
>>10843155>Some of the most battle-hardened and experienced soldiers>two battalions of Aussies and Canucks absolutely wall an entire PVA division at Kapyong
>>10845539China has more artillery initially, every Chinese company had mortars while un artillery was at the brigade level. Then the un brought more artillery.The side with more artillery or cavalry wins every battle no exceptions.
America could have left bejing and 11 other Chang cities nothing but a radioactive crater. Don’t mistake mercy for weakness.
>>10845592It wouldn't accomplish anything. China was still rural. Nukes are almost totally ineffective outside a very narrow situation
>>10845595Guns don’t fire rice
>>10843174>the Korean War literally saw the birth of American CASCan you tell me more about this? Was it a derivative of German CAS with forward observers designating targets? Or something different?
>>10845553Are you stupid?The Americans had howitzers down to battalion level, mortars were controlled by a weapons company in each battalion. You also had howitzer battalions at the division level and separate artillery battalions in the control of each corps.The PLA was lucky if it could muster a single artillery battalion per division, and by artillery I mean howitzers, mortars are nowhere near as effective, just more mobile.
>>10846028But in the battles they won the Chinese had more companies, and the tonnage off mortar rounds is not that low
>>10845660Technically it was more of an extension of Navy/Marine CAS doctrine to the Air Force. In WW2 the Marines and Navy were constantly giving CAS to landing forces. The Air Force thought such work was beneath them and were constantly coming up with excuses to only attack enemy forces behind the frontline or bomb infrastructure. Eventually they ran out because they ended up destroying the Luftwaffe and having thousands of fighter with nothing to fight, so they began using them as makeshift ground attack planes.They did this in Korea too - by October 1950 North Korea had already been completely levelled by air attack, there was nothing except enemy troops left to attack, so there was nothing else for the air force to do. However, since they still doctrinally resisted CAS, they didn't have dedicated ground attack planes but instead used old WW2 prop fighters fitted with rockets, which were extremely vulnerable to AA fire and were lost in large numbers.
>>10846037Companies of what? Certainly not artillery, because they had very little of it.The Chinese won battles by infantry tactics alone.
>>10846073We are fighting mostly the Chinese now, as the North Korean units have been broken badly and fight principally as guerrillas. The Chinese are well equipped with small arms, automatic weapons and mortars. The Chinese usually attack down draws and bottoms, and in covering these approaches our mortars have done their best work. The Chinese take terrific losses but keep on coming. Our mortar crews get into frequent small arms fights.
>>10846085I don't know what you're quoting but the North Koreans were better equipped than the Chinese throughout the entire war. They had trucks, tanks, self-propelled guns, rocket launchers, heavy artillery, everything.
>>10846096Everyone had mortars you clown there was no issue. Only difference was heavy Arty
>ITT ‘historians’ make widely retarded claims about Chinese and American people as a whole and the Korean war like ‘chinese are shit at war’ or ‘americans are shit at war’this boards garbage
>>10845098Kim Il Sung was a heroEven Americans like Billy Graham know this
>>10845274>"Muh mutts ammirite guys???" Please shut up Zhang
>>10845082care to actually disprove what i said, faggot? you'd be VERY hard-pressed to find an army that had been fighting for as long as many of the original members of the Chinese communist party were by 1950. Almost all of them had been fighting total guerilla war against the Nationalists from the mid-1920s, that's almost 25 years of being at war. Many were also veterans of resisting Japan. I really can't think of a single major power's army in 1950 that had been nonstop fighting as long as the Chinee infantry grunt.
>>10843401Don't forget how he wanted to invade Rabaul instead of letting it wither on the vine then demanded we go back to the Philippines over Taiwan when underestimating Japanese troop strength by 200,000. Or when he demanded the USAAF not make any air strikes on Manila so the army had to bring out the 155mms and level the city block by block. Or when he decided going to Seoul was more important than cutting off the north Korean army retreating from Pusan after the Incheon Landings were so successful. MacArthur snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in Korea.
I don't know how chinks can even claim victory.>Norks attack, based on chink promises>UN enters the war to defend south korea>Norks get steamrolled>UN goes "why stop when you're winning lol">Chinks enter the war and waste half a million men to maintain status quo they broke
>>10847395>I don't know how chinks can even claim victorythe fact that the ROK does not border China along the Yalu river, which is what they wanted when they directly got involved militarily
>>10847437and the only reason the US got involved was because they didnt want the entire peninsula controlled by the north
>>10845545>At Kapyong.So while retreating like the rest of the NATO.
>>10847604true. Both sides got some of what they set out to get and the status quo returned to the two Koreas territory-wise. hence why it was a stalemate
>>10843874>People trying to make PLA seem like the 'underdog' when they have vast manpowerThe Chinese army in Korea moved entirely on foot, were equipped with hand-me-down weapons with weapons dating back to the Warlord Period, did not have enough decent winter gear, relied on the porter, horse and mule for logistics transport, and were so utterly in the mercy of US Air Superiority, the entire army moved like cockroaches: in the dark of the night scampering from cover to cover and resting in the day. They even refused to light campfires in the dead of the Korean winter nights least they invite a UN shell or Night-Fighter hurling bombs at them. They barely brought artillery with them and have relatively few anti-armor weapons.Their opponents meanwhile were some of the best trained & equipped militaries on the fucking planet, up to the gills with armor, artillery, AT weapons, enjoyed motorized transport, had their supplies driven by trucks, flown in or paradropped. After the MiG alley was suppressed, the sky belonged to them, with every manner of fighter, bomber, attack aircraft, and support/logistics aircraft supporting the boys on the ground and raiding the enemy supply lines if not the army itself.The Chinks were practially World War I tier, and only marginally outnumber their opponents, who were in the Jet Age and should- on papaer- reasonably be able to destroy their anachronistic opponents with ease. Jesus Christ even the brownie third world allies like Filipinos, Ethiopians, and Turks were all kitted out by the US and far outclassed the Chinese on paper.And the Chinks managed to push them all off from the North.Yes they were the underdogs of that conflict.
>>10842914>I guess WW2 was a humiliation for USSRGermany ceased to exist after WWII. South Korea still exists despite Chinese efforts
>>10844913>their objective was to annex CanadaNo it wasn't
>>10843534>Their objective was to seize the remaining British colonies in North AmericaFalse
>>10847791>the status quo returned to the two Koreas territory-wiseSouth Korea gained more land than it lost
>>10842888They are Chinese
>>10844874Bloody hell, the UN steamrolled the Norks November
>>10847621And yet two Btn crushed a Div. So much for those battlehardened, experienced Chinese soldiers lmao.
>>10847395North Korea is still there as a buffer state with nukes to keep the others at bay to this day.From an objective point of view it worked very well.Meanwhile america never got it's foothold into china like it wanted to and has some guy with nukes sitting on it.
>>10842891>Started launching a sucker punch attack that allowed them to take almost all of the Korean peninsula>Ended being repulsed back, no matter how much human waves they threw at the allies, be it Chinese or Norko cannon fodder.>It was Americans who got skullfucked, fuck capitalism, fuck you Hawaito piggu REEEE
>>10851898See>>10852010US never had any interest in taking over North Korea but hey, why stop when you're winning?
>>10843874China had less men than the UN coalition in the most decisive battle of the war nd this was after they fought a civil war with shit equipment.The Cope here is with the lards who actually believe they can beat china TODAY when they couldnt even beat them back then. America is going to be glassed in any conflict with China
OH SAY CAN YOU SHART
IN THE LOCAL WALMART
>>10852025So why didn't they you know actually stop and save all the trouble after defending SK? Then China wouldn't even be involved at all.
>>10852420because they gambled on China being too pussy to actually join in. This is further proven by their almost-complete confusion and hasty messy retreat after driving up to the yalu river and promptly being confronted by an enormous screaming horde of Mosin-wielding gooks out of nowhere
>>10852164>we took 10% of the casualtiesIs this supposed to be a defeat for us?
>>10843648Technically China didn't really want to join in the first place. But Stalin sort of strongarmed Mao into sending support when needed in exchange for resources and war material from the soviets.So their aim really was more to do with getting rewards from the Soviet Union which didn't fully work out since Stalin reneged on a lot of promises. Hence the soviet sino split later on.
Speaking of Stalin, some say he didn't care that much about Korea. His real goal was to make China fight the US so they would remain enemies instead of normalizing relations. Added to the fact he kept a low profile and wasn't involved much.So one could say Stalin was the real winner of the korean war as both sides left weaker.
>>10849380Ok so you've basically made a bunch of tankie tier lies so i just have to correct them 1 by 1 in case some innocent reader thinks you're legit. >The Chinese army in Korea moved entirely on foot,Most not all, they were especially towards the later stages of the war supplies with trucks by the USSR. Both china and NK were supplies well by the Soviets. This is a lie that they all everywhere on foot always. Also both sides had to move by foot for most the war due to the mountainous terrain and fighting taking place away from dirt roads let alone paved ones.>were equipped with hand-me-down weapons with weapons dating back to the Warlord Period,Nope, this is false. Perhaps during the Sino-japanese war were they hid in the mountains and did fuck all they had nothing. But as soon as Japan surrendered and USSR gifted them resource rich Manchuria with shit tons of japanese weaponry and supplies they were well equipped to fight the ROC. Then when they won the civil war they inherited TONS of US weaponry as well as constantly beings supplied by the soviets too. This is a bare faced lie. They were supported even more during their intervention. >did not have enough decent winter gear,Not true they were a little raggy and non standardized but they had enough supplies to go around clothes wise especially. Show me sources of summer clothes chinese in the dead of winter during the war.>relied on the porter, horse and mule for logistics transportMaybe because 1950's trucks couldn't reach them in the rolling hills and literally snowy mountains they mainly fought in. Please stop milking this "underdog" lie its obviously not true. >and were so utterly in the mercy of US Air Superiority, This is only true for a very short period of their intervention, the USSR joined in unofficially and had voulenteer pilots that fought an air war in Korea that basically made the air situation contested. They also supplied AA batteries & air training to both china & NK
>>10849380>the entire army moved like cockroaches: in the dark of the night scampering from cover to cover and resting in the day.Again perhaps in certain situations and a short amount of time before the Russian air support was in full swing but certainly not during the whole war. Also both sides moved their forces like that as to get the element of surprise and try infiltration ops behind enemy lines. >They even refused to light campfires in the dead of the Korean winter nights least they invite a UN shell or Night-Fighter hurling bombs at them.Again if it did happen probably went for both sides. I doubt they're these super soldiers with 100% "awwww" you're trying to milk to where they literally walked around barefooted in the dead of winter in summer clothes with half a rifle eating berries and could only sleep on the most uncomfortable conditions. Cringe>They barely brought artillery with them and have relatively few anti-armor weaponsIncorrect, they were well equipped by the Soviets especially during the later parts of the war. >Their opponents meanwhile were some of the best trained & equipped militaries on the fucking planet,They literally had a combination of crappy SK conscripts, UN random nations untested troops, some WW2 vets & a mixture of new volunteers. I wouldn't call them all super soldiers or anything. They were well trained and equipped and had decent leadership. >up to the gills with armor, artillery, AT weapons, enjoyed motorized transport,Nah not really, they were on average better equipped since there was less troops to share the equipment among so everyone had a good amount. But its not as 1 sided as you make it, and again not all of it always meant in every battle they could use it all. Again mountain warfare limits usage of things like tanks & even large artillery.>enjoyed motorized transport, had their supplies driven by trucksAt the start yes, by the end both sides had plenty of trucks.
>>10849380>flown in or paradropped.Probably the only major advantage they had was helicopters and air drops.>the sky belonged to themNah they still had dogfights with Migs and had AA fire to entend with. >very manner of fighter, bomber, attack aircraft, and support/logistics aircraft supporting the boys on the ground and raiding the enemy supply lines if not the army itselfWhich didn't count for much since most of the worthwhile targets were in China which they refused to attack because they didn't want to set off the USSR to fully intervene>The Chinks were practially World War I tierNot really lol they were fairly well equipped its just their manpower made that not everyone could be well equipped all the time just due to pure numbers.>and only marginally outnumber their opponentsThey consistently had always a 3-1 advantage in numbers, sometimes even more. Their reinforcement rate was quicker and they were psychos so were literally willing to throw in as many men to meek out any costly win. You're lying>who were in the Jet Age and should- on papaer- reasonably be able to destroy their anachronistic opponents with easeThe Soviets were supplying them with Migs though lol ....>Jesus Christ even the brownie third world allies like Filipinos, Ethiopians, and Turks were all kitted out by the US and far outclassed the Chinese on paper.Well the US isn't gonna just leave them out are they? Of course they'll kit them out. The chinks just had what they could share among their vast numbers, its their own fault for trying to field such a large army.>And the Chinks managed to push them all off from the NorthYeah by literally Zerg rushing them every battle, no strats just send as many to die and see if they run out before you do. Pretty sure there were even minor battles in where the allies would run out of ammunition and would just retreat because they couldn't continue killing the chinese waves without more supplies.
>>10852508This is basically the main theme of anything siding with China & NK. They flaunt 'victories' in where they take horrible losses the allies take very few but withdraw and they act as if they've just won at Waterloo or some shit.
>>10854060The zerg rush tactic is a constantly repeated myth that won't die.What actually was employed were infiltration and shock tactics but journalists kept misusing the name human wave tactics and no one bothered to correct it.
>>10849815I'm German and can assure you Germany did not "cease to exist" after WW2.
>>10842888The Korean war was a total loss for China. They pushed N. Korea to conquer the South and when America showed up to save North Korea, the commies were slaughtered up to the Chinese border before America was pushed back to the N. Korean border. Had America dedicated the equivalent resources to the exchange that China did there would not be a North Korea and perhaps not even as much of China. As is they lost an appalling number of people, and didn't obtain their objective I'd say it was a costly loss. It could have been a worse loss but it wasn't good.
>>10854060>Nah they still had dogfights with Migs and had AA fire to entend withyou're kidding yourself if you think that that Communists were really a match for the UN in the air. American pilots flying F-86 Sabres managed a 10-1 kill ratio over Communist MiG-15s over Korea, even when the commies brought in experienced WWII veteran pilots from the USSR to fly them. Communist aircraft never posed a truly serious threat to US air dominance
>>10854139>Archival material suggests that North Korea's decision to invade South Korea was Kim's initiative, not a Soviet one.>China acquiesced only reluctantly to the idea of Korean reunification after being told by Kim that Stalin had approved the action.Wheres the push?
>>10842891Tienanmen square massacre Taiwan independence
I want all you Chinese fucks to look at this picture and tell me how you won if the goal was to conquer South Korea. The black line is the 1945 border, the dotted line is the 1953 border. How exactly did you guys fucking "win"?
>>10854538That's north korea's goal. China was just indirectly ordered by Stalin to provide support in exchange for favours from him.
the amount of chinkcels on this site coping is pathetic
>>10854174No, Mao pressured for the Nork invasion. It was Stalin who was reluctant.
>>10854581Yes, and the Chinese entered the war on their side (and backed the invasion to begin with). They made it their own goal by supporting the Norks.
>>10854609You can support a party's objectives but have different personal goals in mind.
>>10854622But they didn't. The backed the invasion, bailed them out when it went wrong, then tried to achieve the Norks' objective for them.
>>10854637Do we have a source of China stating the mission was to unify the two koreas?
>>10854670If you think I'm going to go digging through my books just to win an argument on 4chinz you're wrong. But it doesn't even matter, their actions speak for themselves - they intervened to save the attacking country (North Korea), saved North Korea from the country (South Korea) it had attacked and its allies, then invaded South Korea themselves and attempted to destroy it just as the North Koreans had done.
>>10854603Both of them were reluctant. But in the end it was Stalin who gave the go ahead and told Kim to seek Mao. When Mao heard that Stalin okayed it, it meant Stalin was indirectly giving the order for him to provide support or massively lose favour as he was lower than Stalin.
>>10854585you'll find the mutts are seething far more ;)
>>10842888Patton would have loved Korea had he lived to fight in it
>>10854725No, Mao was never reluctant. Ever. He wanted that war.
>>10854148Wasn't the MiG technically the superior aircraft though? It could reach higher altitudes or was faster, i forget which but it was noted to be better than the US jets.
>>10843263It’s was a military sale.
>>10857556In technicality China could fight further south with Russian aid. However chosen reservoir is like home room. Now it’s alldone and said where do they go? Think of stem cell research. In political theory chosin is like saying we live in end of world. If belligerent J captures Ks chosin then K is ultimately sterilized, murdered and sold off. If K is prey then so is L. Because capitalism works by liquidating confirmation not exactly maintaining it. Pretty sure K has an ally X that won’t allow Ls reservoir and neither K. That when omnicide becomes risk as all the nuke reserves are aimed towards the moon.
>>10854060>Muh muh Zerg RushdIf the Chinese simply "Zerg Rushed," they would have never made it past the Yalu.Instead what they did was >https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_wave_attack#People's_Liberation_Army>Later, the term "human wave attack" was often misused to describe the Chinese short attack — a combination of infiltration and shock tactics employed by the People's Volunteer Army (PVA) during the Korean War.[>A typical Chinese short attack was carried out at night by small fireteams on a narrow front against the weakest point in enemy defenses. The PVA assault team would crawl undetected within grenade range, then launch surprise attacks against the defenders in order to breach the defenses by relying on maximum shock and confusion.>If the initial shock failed to breach the defenses, additional fireteams would press on behind them and attack the same point until a breach was created. Once penetration was achieved, the bulk of the Chinese forces would move into the enemy rear and attack from behind. During the attacks, the Chinese assault teams would disperse while masking themselves using the terrain, and this made it difficult for UN defenders to target numerous Chinese troops. Attacks by the successive Chinese fireteams were also carefully timed to minimize casualties. Due to primitive communication systems and tight political controls within the Chinese army, short attacks were often repeated indefinitely until either the defenses were penetrated or the attacker's ammunition supply were exhausted, regardless of the chances of success or the human cost.Literally shock & infiltration tactics conducted at night and on the weakest point of an enemy line.Which is why a lot of cunts ITT have been telling you that the UN and all its Jet-Aged mechanized might was sent running by a World War 1-tier army.
>>10854060>Not really lol they were fairly well equipped its just their manpower made that not everyone could be well equipped all the time just due to pure numbers.>They were well equipped but they aren't.The sheer amount of copium in these three posts is off the charts.
>>10854710you are implying the US, right?
>>10845553>>10846028>>10846037>>10846073>>10846085>>10846096>>10846101You Completely forgot about air power and Seaborne gun support the Americans could muster most of the time
>>10856092>A conversation between Tunkin and Kim Il Sung on12 September 1949 makes clear that Kovalev’s report was more accurate.>Tunkin reported that when he asked Kim “how the population will view the situation if the North were to begin a civil war,” Kim Il Sung “vacillated.” Kim also informed Tunkin about Mao’s comment to Kim Il that “the Northerners should not begin military action now, since in the first place, it is politically disadvantageous, and in the second place, the Chinese friends are occupied at home and cannot give them serious help.”71>These statements show that Mao was reluctant to support Kim Il Sung’s military plans.
>>10842888Air-power. there's a reason the Americans over-relied on it in Vietnam.
>>10858165>>10854120>If the initial shock failed to breach the defenses, additional fireteams would press on behind them and attack the same point until a breach was created>Due to primitive communication systems and tight political controls within the Chinese army, short attacks were often repeated indefinitely until either the defenses were penetrated or the attacker's ammunition supply were exhausted, regardless of the chances of success or the human cost>often repeated indefinitely until either the defenses were penetrated or the attacker's ammunition supply were exhausted>regardless of the chances of success or the human cost>ugh china didn't use "muh human waves" they just crawled up and assaulted the point, sending fireteam after fireteam at the defenders with no regard for probability of success or casualties until either they overrun the defender or the defenders were literally not capable of turning PLA soliders into swiss cheese anymore Dunno sounds a lot like zerg rushing
>>10858518>you completely forgot about something irrelevant Ok
>>10859434A Zerg Rush is a general bumrush attack, not something that occurs at a specific point. Its also a pathetic excuse by victims of overwhelming numbers. Human Wave attacks have literally only been a thing for only 2 points in history: WW1 and the Basij Militia in the Iran Iraq War.
How come the Changs sent a foot army into Korea?What happened to all the shit they got from the Soviets/Allies & the stuff they captured from the KMT & the Japs?
>>10859538Dunno about the others but a lot of help Stalin sent Mao is overstated. Stalin didn't even help Mao that much at the beginning of the civil war coz he wasn't that confident in his chances of winning. Yes, CKS wasn't actually on bad terms with Stalin like some think. People put too much focus on ideology rather than actual realpolitik.And when the Korean war came Stalin said he would help Mao so Mao would feel more comfortable going into Korea. However when China actually went into war, Stalin sort of reneged on a bunch of promises and didn't provide as much help as he originally said.This is one of the reasons the soviet split came later because Mao felt Stalin betrayed him. The two weren't on the best terms.
>>10842888Should've nuked the bastards when we had the fucking chance, COVID wouldn't be a thing, no outsourcing, no tiktok Fuck he was right
>>10842888>very experiencedThe earliest waves made heavy use of political prisoners, ex-warlord/KMT troops, and former Japanese auxiliaries who may or may not have been experienced and certainly were not very eager to go into battle. >soviet-armedThe earliest waves made heavy use of former KMT equipment supplied by the US. >WhyIt's more a question of why they succeeded at first rather than why they failed later.The Chinese were only able to succeed in the first place due to total surprise and UN overconfidence leading to a strategically-precarious situation. Once surprise was lost, their only option was a slow stalemate that was not sustainable without continued Soviet aid. As it would happen, the UN under the US simply didn't have the will to escalate conflict to the point where the USSR could be involved.
>>10859748Not this guy.But it should be noted the north Koreans who made the initial assault were said to have been better armed by the soviets than the PVA.
MacArthur could have won the war before china had a chance to intervene if he pushed after the retreating DPRK army instead of stopping in Seoul for a parade.
>>10859538>>10859670The People's Liberation Army does have a fuckton of Captured/Donated heavy equipment, but remember, the Chinese Civil War ended in 1949. A year before the Korean Shitstorm occurred. At around that time the PLA was still consolidating the CCP's grip in the country. It was going around disarming warlords, processesing KMT surrenderers & defectors, and was even fighting wars vs. the secessionist minorities (Chiefly Tibet) and KMT remnants that didn't manage to flee to Taiwan (notably the KMT Army that fled to Burma and kept attacking Yunnan province from their bases in seized Burmese territory). In addition the CCP feared that the Americans and Chiang Kai-shek in Taiwan were regrouping for a renewed invasion of Mainland China.With these foreign & domestic threats and security issues still in its mind, the CCP therefore thought they could not afford to send the PLA into military adventures in Korea.. Ultimately they were only pressured into doing so by the twin factors of Stalin's conditions for Soviet aid and the Americans crossing the 38th Parallel to invade North Korea Proper.However, although the CCP committed to a war in Korea, it did not fully commit into the war by keeping its major assets (tanks, automotive transport, airforces) in China and sending only an infantry army filled with veterans from the last 2 conflicts China fought.Another purpose for not sending significant assets to the Korean war was China trying to fool the allies that they sent a "force of fanatical volunteers" to assist the North Koreans. Thereby hiding the fact that they committed part of heir professional army into which could invite an opportunistic attack by either the US & KMT on Mainland China itself. Hence why the CCP called the Chinese army that went to Korea "the People's Volunteer Army" even if practically most of these "Volunteers" were literal formations of the PLA.
>>10842909I count 3 arguments
God I love the North Korean uniforms of the Korean war, so fucking badass looking.
>>10851713Experience does not eliminate material disparity.
>>10858398I don't understand what you mean.
>>10859670This is not true. The Sino-Soviet split was a result of Stalin's death, because Mao didn't like that Khrushchev wasn't like Stalin.
>>10860140Aren't KPA uniforms of that era just Soviet uniforms with a couple changes to the insignia?
>>10859538They didn't really have an air force and they had no replacement parts for any American or Japanese equipment they captured so it was a use-it-til-it-breaks sort of deal. It wasn't until the Soviets began shipping them stuff in 1951 they had any real logistics at all.
The Chinese in 1950-51 certainly performed better than the Japanese did in 1943-45 against overwhelming air superiority/artillery. They made frontal assaults but it wasn't suicidal banzai charges, the IJA were also experts at night attacks/infiltration.No Japanese attack/counter attack ever achieved the kind of breakthrough the PLA managed to pull off.
>>10860507That's because the Japanese were always outnumbered and usually cut off from supply since the Americans controlled the sea lanes. The Chinese (in theory) had a constant supply line, and always outnumbered their opponents.And the Japanese did bull off the kind of breakthrough the Chinese did - their initial attacks from December 1941 to May 1942 were a series of foot infantry blitzes that succeeded totally despite always being outnumbered.
>>10860558> December 1941 to May 1942 were a series of foot infantry blitzes that succeeded totally despite always being outnumbered.That's why I said 1943 to 45. Their success in 41/42 was primarily due to air superiority, G4Ms were the best long range medium bomber in Asia in 1940-42 and the allies seriously underestimated its capabilities along with the zero. Once you get into late 42 with Guadalcanal and the Jap air service was being contested by American air power and being forced to fly in from Rabaul you start to see a breakdown of successful Japanese offensives.
>>10860576They had air superiority but if we're being honest the Japanese were pretty bad at air support. Their biggest contribution was keeping Allied bombers out of the sky, not bombing things for the ground troops.
>>10860162>outnumbered 5:1Pure CCP cope.
>>10854078The pathetic thing is that they do this for battle involving the west. They act like a battle were they outnumber colonial troops 15 to 1 is an amazing victory
>>10858178I think you're struggling to comprehend it let be break it down for you tankie.The PLA had TONS of captured Japanese, ROC/US gifted equipment as well as having shit tons of USSR equipment provided to them during their civil war and even during the Korean war. They hads lots of go around that would kit out a pretty large army in the 100,000's range but instead they purposely chose to field an army in the million's range so of course if you purposely have more men than you practically need at any given moment of the war of course you're going to have a large section of the men under equipped you retard.Your Gotcha attempt was retarded
>>10859455Please stop giving more credit to the PLA than they deserve this cope is pathetic, anon >>10859434 is correct and I'm correct in my initial comments calling it a zerg rush. It is a Zerg rush and they do employ that tactic. We'd even go onto see them use the same tacitcs again in their Sino-Vietnam war in 79 in which they'd just throw tons of men at the enemy to take any Pyrrhic victory they can get. Stop coping
>>10862134Also the us aid to kmt went to communism so the us did more help communism than anybody else. Basically communism does that.
>>10860146They look like under fed Janitors with donated russian guns
>>10842891How exactly did Americans get skullfucked by chinks? Cope more brainlet.
Fallout's Sino-American war is based ngl its basically just the Korean War turned up to 1000
>>10858763Where'd you pull that from, Chang?
>>10844917a kills a kill
>>10847275Tards will be tards. The fighting that the original revolutionaries went through deserves respect from all sidesAnyone who actually enjoys history would strongly enjoy learning about the shitshow that China went through during the early 20th century, but the amount of haplogroup threads here gives me doubt for this board.
>>10852169Not gonna defend what is objectively bad performance by the burgers, but you probably should mention that the nork division was armoured, chang
>>10847275>you'd be VERY hard-pressed to find an army that had been fighting for as long as many of the original members of the Chinese communist party were by 1950.The only real 'fighting' they did was during the civil war thats it. >Almost all of them had been fighting total guerilla war against the Nationalists from the mid-1920s, that's almost 25 years of being at war.No they weren't lmao 90% of the CCP army died during the Long march, they then had only a small amount of soldiers left and just the political inner circle people left to rebuild the ccp in the mountains hiding away from the ROC and IJA while they fought each other. And then even in the civil war most of the bulk of the ccp's armies were peasant volunteers wiht 0 experience, defectors/deserters from ROC or Japans Chinese puppet states. Not exactly a grizzled army of veterans
>>10864345Tbh the weakest chain in the link on the allies with was the ROK troops. Every part of the front they held they always buckled under when attacked by either china or NK and they were never given the hardest sections of the front either, usually eastern sides of Korea long the coast which saw less intense fighting. If ROK was more competent and better fighters they'd have more wins under their belt