did arminius really deter roman expansion or is that german bullshit and the rhine was actually the most logical and practical border for the empire?
I don't know. I don't care. The only thing I know about him is that he makes romaboos seethe, for that alone he is based.
>>10842691he was removed from west german textbooks after the war because of his association with german nationalism and militarism. i don’t really get it, the victory at teutoburg forest allegedly changed the course of history but they’re not allowed to celebrate it lol
>>10842673>did arminius really deter roman expansionNope. The Romans went right back in their and were dominating the g*rmshits. They literally only pulled out because keeping the worthless land beyond the Rhine would have been a massive waste of resources.
>>10842673He did, Romans were already settling east of the Rhine and started building cities- After Teutoburg they evacuated and thus he saved free Germania.
>>10842723*blocks your path*
>>10842723https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldgirmes_ForumThis kinda explains it best, Germania would have been colonized like those lesser regions if it wasn't for this remarkable military leader who destroyed Roman presence in Germania. after Teutoburg settling Germania was out of the question and the Romans only staged a few expeditions to save face, In the end it didn't matter much, Germania stayed free and a frew centuries later would destroy the Roman slaver empire forever.
>>10842733>lose the entire province forever>do a half assed expedition so you can save faceimporessive
>>10842673He did, but others would have failed to keep the territory, dacia was evacuated, mesoptmia wasn't held for that long
>>10842738Cope. Romans were literally steamrolling their way through Germania, they captured Arminius' wife and child and took them as war booty, were completely ready to keep marching East and slicing their way through the kr*utoids before Tiberius called them back due the land they were conquering being useless. In hindsight they should have just keep steamrolling and then genocided the natives, we'd be living in a much better world today.
>>10842738map of germania getting rektd that I forgot to upload alongside >>10842747
>>10842747>lose the entire colony, forever>but we got this guys wifesteamrolling, indeed.
>>10842763>>lose the entire colony, foreverThey literally, unironically gave it away simply because it wasn't worth keeping. They had made their point, they showed that they were more than capable than conquering all of Germania, it simply wasn't worth doing or keeping. They utterly btfo the g*rmshits and then focused their attention to Asia.
>>10842770>They literally, unironically gave it away simply because it wasn't worth keeping.It was just pure coincidence they did this just after the battle of Teutoburg when the Germans burned down all their cities east of the Rhine. Totally. Had absolutely nothing to do with getting rekt like they haven't been since Cannae.
>be Arminius>be granted Roman citizenship and get the chance to live in the shining beacon of human civilisation>chimp out, backstab the very Romans who gave you everything and run back to your frozen shithole oogaboogaland>The Romans come back shortly after your cowardly ambush and start carving their way across Germania until they finally have their fill and mercifully choose to go home, taking your wife and kid with you as a war prize>cucked and alone, you end up getting backstabbed by your fellow snowchimps
>>10842770>w-we totally could have conquered you, b-but... we just didn't want to!This is cope if I've ever seen one >t-the land was useless anywayWhy the fuck did they conquer Brittania then?
>>10842783>It was just pure coincidence they did this just after the battle of Teutoburg when the Germans burned down all their cities east of the Rhine.Your timeline is all fucked up. Romans went on this expidition into Germania as revenge for the ambush at Teutoburg and were completely fucking up the natives until Tiberius called them back, feeling that they proved their point and because it wasn't worth trying to hold on to a frozen shithole.
>>10842797>This is cope if I've ever seen oneIt's literally what happened.>Why the fuck did they conquer Brittania then?Different Emperor, different priorities. If Tiberius was still in charge he wouldn't have bothered and instead focused on Asia.
>>10842790The only good thing the Romans did was bringing civilization to people that could further improved it. The Roman empire did fuck-all to actually improve civilization, they where a decadent, militaristic shithole.
>>10842707Haven't heard of that, but as a german Arminius is still quite a revered and remembered figure, I also remember him being taught in school and I am still quite young.Now a general explaination of Arminius and the Roman border:Arminius ambush first off damaged any serious attempts at holding the region even when a lot of germans still supported the Romans as adequate forces were not present.It was more sensible to have a fortified border with them that is easily defendable by the Romans at quite low upkeep.As other Anons already said the land in germania was on surface level not really worth that much but others seem to have the silly idea that genociding all the germans would solve the problem instead of causing a new and unknown enemy to potentially take their place and be a greater danger.The population in germania was it's greatest wealth as that could be used as a good recruitment ground, even if some of you might have doubts in light of the late Roman crisis with germanic soldiers, we are talking about the times of Augustus were the army was still a well running machine and not on a desperate defense trying to get anything to fight for them. Problems like with the foederatii would not occur. Besides that it would be quite hard to move large masses of population into germania after having it depopulated.>>10842745I would see the starting province of Germania more as the beginning of reaching into a new frontier step by step, the arangement of rivers in Germania is very pleasing for a well consolidated step by step conquest of it, first the push to the Weser, then the Elbe and as the final frontier the Oder, we can almost observe such a movement of Germanicus with him mainly pushing and acting behind the Weser. This might be quite costly and would be more of a long term investment by shortening the actual length of border that needed to be guarded.
>>10842729no, it’s arminius. hermann is something made up by martin luther along with the rest of the stuff he made up
>>10842801Then why the fuck would he even hold on to such a useless territory? Seethe, cope and dilate.
He barely killed 15k Romans and got rekt multiple times later by Germanicus, losing many more men.
>>10842822>Then why the fuck would he even hold on to such a useless territory?What the fuck are you talking about? They didn't hold onto Germania, that's the point. A completely different Emperor decided Britannia would be worth taking.
>>10842829I'm talking about Brittania. Learn to read.
>>10842832How about you finish reading posts, retard. I'll try one last time: A completely different emperor than Tiberius decided that Britannia would be worth taking. It was not the same emperor that decided Germania was worthless.
>>10842822Holding onto Britannia was a matter of policy. Any Emperor that evacuated the isles was more or less committing political suicide by giving up Roman hegemony. The people, the senate and the Army would be up in arms about it.
>>10842839Again. Why. Did. He. Hold. On. To. Such. A. Useless. Piece. Of. Territory. (Brittania). It would have been in everyone's best interest to ditch the place, because it was a giant nett-loss to the Romans.Fucking retard. But what can you expect from romaboos?
>>10842843Weird. When they eventually ditched it no-one batted an eye.
>>10842852It wasn't so much as completely abandoned as you might think. For sure Roman power did leave the isles but they more or less continued to see it as theirs and Romano-Britions like Riothamus even tried to help the Empire in war. There is also the point the evacuation was mostly conducted by the usurper Constantine who was enemy of the court in Italy even if he tried to make friends with them.
>>10842855Retreating the legions from Brittania, leaving it to be conquered by Anglo-Saxons, isnt abandoning it?
>>10842863The Anglo Saxons weren't even invading Britannia by the time they left. Constantine took his Legions from Britannia with him to Gaul and made his power base there.
>>10842707>the victory at teutoburg forest allegedly changed the course of historyThat's what snowchimps truly believe. Romans were killing and enslaving hundreds of thousands of Germs centuries after the battle that "changed history".
>>10842882The Anglo-Saxon (umbrella-term for the Frisians, Angles, Jutes and Saxons) have been raiding the shores of Brittania since before the Romans even showed up.
>>10842826whoa germanicus was based
>>10842734Yes thats true but how do you occupy all of Magna Germania? By necessity the next border is the river Elba, but between the rivers mouth and the Alps, you have huge swath of alpine forests. Even if Arminus failed I don't see how viable it would have been.
>>10842852you are making it sound like they just gave up the entire province in one fell swoop
>>10842884>torch a bunch of villages, get scared and retreat The might of the Roman war machine.... vgh
>>10842747>Tiberius called them back due the land they were conquering being uselessDue to not wanting another general to gain high acclaim and become a political rival.
The Wehraboo cope in this thread is insane, and it’s a shame that the people that support Rome are absolute retards who don’t know they’re talking about or how best to articulate it. Germania WAS a worthless shithole back then, and Teutoberg was the proving of this. Do you people not understand how expensive a professional standing army is? Germania would absolutely never see a return on investment, and the Romans could never pay for the legions they needed to replace, and garrison there with what the province itself would produce. It wasn’t until the heavy plow that you could even reliably farm in the territory because of how hard the soil was. On top of that the logistics of supplying, and communicating with the administration there are horrible. Germania was too far from any reliable river routes to effectively send or receive messages/supplies for a long term occupation. Britannia by contrast was absolutely amazing. The farmland in Britain was incredibly bountiful, logistically Britain was more accessible than Germania, and on top of that it held some of the greatest mineral wealth in Western Europe. Britain had vast deposits of lead, and iron, as well as the largest tin deposits in all of Europe at the time, especially with Hispania’s tin running out.
>>10842884Why did they abandon their annexation plans after that?
>>10842923Britannia's farmland was in no means better than Germania's. Outside from a few cities on the Eastern coast, the land was still mostly swamps with tribes fighting petty wars with eachother (like in Germania). And the demand for tin was very small compared to the bronze age. Also, you don't know what a wehraboo is.
>>10842910Only some Germanic tribes joined Arminius (pink zone). Other tribes were allied to Rome and some were even paying tributes like Frisii (untill 29 AD) and Batavi (untill at least 70 AD). Few years after the death of Arminius, his nephew Italicus was appointed as client king of Cherusci by Roman Emperor Tiberius and ruled on behalf of the Romans."Herman" totally saved Magna Germania.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italicus>>10842927Bunch of frozen steppe. Romans were building settlements right next modern Polish border during the Marcomannic war.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovakia_in_the_Roman_era
>>10842954>ancient Germania>steppeDisgard everything this retard says.
>>10842890Raiding is not invading, it is the normal state of affairs between the Romans and their foes even with the Persians.
>>10842965Thats besides the point. My point was that nobody batted an eye when they abandoned Brittania.
>>10842790>>10842799>frozen shithole you do realise there were four seasons there just like today? And Germania would have been a beautiful country, even more then it is today
>>10842972Because they didn't believe they abandoned Britannia. As far as they were concerned it was still part of the Empire with Roman people inside of it who even on occasion assisted them against their enemies in Gaul.
>>10842985Because they didn't believe that they abandoned it means that they didn't? If I believe that I created all life on earth by fucking your mother, does that make it true?
>>10842938>Britannia's farmland was in no means better than Germania's.Completely false you fucking retard. Germany was nearly unfarmable compared to Britain before the heavy plow. You don’t know what you’re talking about. The population density of Britain was far far greater than Germany.>And the demand for tin was very small compared to the bronze age.Tin was in incredibly high demand throughout the period. Bronze was used for a lot of stuff past the Bronze Age. Stop embarrassing yourself. Britain was a much more worthwhile place that Germania.
>>10842995The Germanics where an agrarian culture. Germania was very well farmable. And I never claimed that there wasn't a demand for bronze, but the demand for tin during the Roman empire was particulary small compared to the demand during the bronze age. And the Romans knew of several silver and iron-sources in Germania.
>>10842707That's what you get for losing a war.
Ok so you don’t know what you’re talking about in any capacity. That’s all you needed to say.
>>10842994I am relating this to my initial statement that it was political suicide to willingly leave Britannia which is why they never did it. The Late Romans did not believe they left Britannia and so didn't have a issue with the state of affairs inside of it. As far as they were concerned that was their reality, that Britannia was controlled by them even if it does not represent what we know now as their actual influence.
>>10843014they mostly pastoralist and could only manage subsistence farming
>>10842922Mixture of both desu. Germania was seen as worthless to the Romans. Depopulating it would have been hugely beneficial in the long-run, but that's hindsight for you.
>>10843048Grain was an important part of their diet. Have none of you ever read Tacitus?
>>10842923>>10842995Romaboo cope. Romans held on to Britannia because they could. Britons were much weaker and lacked the warrior spirit and capability of the Germans.
>>10843045Whats the matter then? They eventually realised how useless and hard to defend that place was. So you're proving my point.
>>10843054still only practised subsistence farming and ate alot of wild game and fruit as well. They considered farming to be feminine cuck work and pastoralism to be more noble and prestigious, cattle was their main source and token of wealth. It would have been a pain in the ass to farm that hard soil
>>10843071>They considered farming to be feminine cuck workAnd thats why they let their women do the farming. Seriously, have none of you ever read Tacitus?
>>10842962Southern Poland is part of the eurasian steppe tho
I don’t know what you guys are saying the Romans left Britain when they never did.
>>10843081But ancient Germania isn't you braindead fuck.
>>10842846No it wasn't, it stopped raids and being a base of exile for whichever group wanted to due to the conquest, the tin mines really helped and roman empire survived there for ages. The border with the picts helped give a reliable use of militaries
>>10843108Then why didn't they conquer Germania? It had silver and iron mines and the Romans already where recruiting a lot of Germanics. And if they would conquer it they also didn't have to deal with Germanic raids anymore.
>>10843059Nah, if you read the Bellum Gallicum, Julius Casear faced them both and Britons were better warriors overall.Moreover Romans took like 30 years to conquer Britannia up to the Scottish highlands while all of Germania was subdued in just 6 years while fighting also in other fronts.
>>10843126>all of Germania was subduedretard
>>10843129Cope>After his posting in Syria, Saturninus was posted to a senior military command in the west. In 6 BC Tiberius, the future emperor, launched a pincer movement against the Marcomanni. He set out to the northwest from Carnuntum on the Danube with four legions. Meanwhile, Saturninus departed heading east from Moguntiacum on the Rhine with two or three legions, passing through newly annexed Hermunduri territory, and attacked the Marcomanni from the west. The campaign was a resounding success, but Tiberius could not subjugate the Marcomanni because he was summoned to the Rhine frontier to protect Rome's new conquests in Germania. In AD 4 Saturninus replaced Marcus Vicinius in Germania, and for the next two years served under the command of Tiberius. During this time he was awarded the ornamenta triumphalia, "triumphal ornaments" or an ovation; Augustus had restricted full triumphs to members of the imperial family. His final campaign in Germany was in AD 6, when he marched from Moguntiacum, and was meant to join up with Tiberius who was marching from Carnuntum, with the intent of crushing King Maroboduus and the Marcomanni. However, the Great Illyrian Revolt forced them to return, and Saturninus was replaced in Germania by Publius Quinctilius Varus.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaius_Sentius_Saturninus_(consul_19_BC)
>>10843188I like the fact that even in that (fake) map, all of Germania isn't even coloured. Nice self-own, retard.
>>10842884>strenght>1 milliongod this is so fucking retarded, romans always greatly inflated the enemy number of combatants but this takes the cake. Doubt a people like the krauts beyond the rhine ever actually had enough men to get close to that of the legions in open battle.
>>10843196>fake mapTrue. Romans also subdued many tribes east of the Elbe river but I can't find a map showing that.>1–4 AD, Rise of the Chatti and Bructeri (immensum bellum) suppressed by Tiberius, who reaches the Elbe. Canninefates, Chattuarii, Cherusci are again subdued. Lombards, Semnones, Chauci and other tribes who dwelt on both sides of the Elbe are subjugated.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronology_of_warfare_between_the_Romans_and_Germanic_tribes
>>10842673The line of Roman expansion corresponds with the previously existing frontier of village-type settlement. >>10842846I heavily suspect the reason for taking Britainnia was the ease of coastal raids and the hardship of launching punitive campaign against these.
>>10843204Romans liked to inflate enemy combatants numbers by including enemy civilians while their own numbers were deflated as support and logistics attached to the legions weren't counted in the tally.
>yeah we totally could have conquered and subjugated you w-we just didn't feel like it, and stuff....ultimate medlet cope
>>10843701>Romans liked to inflate enemy combatants numbers by including enemy civiliansMigrating tribes enlisted every adult male and sometimes even female in combat duty. Numbers refer only to combatans unless differently specified like in pic related.>were deflated as support and logistics attached to the legions weren't counted in the tally.???Not true, numbers include support and logistics.
>>10843701Roman officers were in charge of logistics. The head commander would be in charge of his of his own logistics but overall in the Late Empire it went to a sort of logistics master which the Empire had 4 of split into the Empire of the Tetrarchy
>it was at this very moment when Augustus realized he didn't really want Germania and the Rhine is a much better border anyway.
>>10843996right, romans consistently won battles in which they were outnumbered 5 to 1 against peoples much greater in physical prowess than themselves. get a load of yourself you swarthy faggot
>>10842673He was the spark that would light the fire that would burn the Roman empire down.
>>10844045Try to fight these guys with no armor, a wooden shield and short spear. LOLThose guys were constantly training and building stuff while the average barbarian was a poor starving savage.
>>10842770>haha lmao we made our point haha we didn't want the land anyway lol you've been done haha yeah>Gets utterly steamrolled by the German bvll a few centuries later
The roman empire may be no more, but its cultural influence shapes every modern nation to this day. So yeah, Arminius did jack shit, the germans are pretty much completly romanised
>>10842673I'm sure Rome losing an entire legion in a barbarian forest to conquer a worthless swamp had nothing to do with setting the frontier at the Danube and Rhine.Germanicus came along and proved that Rome could subdue and genocide the Germans whenever it wanted, but for what gain? Forests? More slaves? The empire was already swelling with slaves. The cost of maintaining and civilizing the German barbarians was already demonstrated to be potentially high. Rome was right to set the frontier and should have probably never conquered Britain or Gaul either. Both were higher in cost of maintenance than in income.Caesar conquered Gaul purely out of a need to increase his own prestige and treasure, not because it was sound policy.
>>10844138 #The tribes didn't fight as an unified front most of the time, which allowed Romans pick them one by one. They repelled the savages, invaded the steppe burning everything down and taking countless slaves and booty. The remaing tribes were forced to pay a heavy tribute to Rome.
>>10844078germanics had much better nutrition mostly consisting of protein, retard. average roman soldier was like 5'4 while the average germanic warrior was about 5'8. Germanics around that time tended to wear chainmail armor and iron or bronze helmets and used various weapons such as clubs, war axes, spears which they often used in a phalanx, and swords. The only way the roman's could have defeated such a foe would have been through numerical superiority, which also makes perfect sense considering that the germanic tribes were rarely united and their total population is today estimated to be at around a million, thus it's save to assume that their total united manpower would have been around 100 thousand, with the bigger tribal confederations having access to about 30 thousand warriors in total at best.
>>10843996>pic references Celtic tribesRomaboo education everyone>Migrating tribes enlisted every adult male and sometimes even female in combat duty. Numbers refer only to combatans unless differently specified like in pic related.No they did not enlist females, and also these armies are simply beyond what was logistically impossible. Same way Persia did not actually invade Greece with 1 million men if that is what you think
>>10842673Yes, Rome was set on extending their territory to the Elbe. The tribes in between rising up in rebellion made Rome realize those plans were unrealistic
>>10844045Except Hannibal of course...;)
>>10844752post jaw or kill yourself
Germanics had a tiny population compared to Rome. Somehow they kept being defeated and slaughtered, but kept on coming.When the Roman Empire ended they 'reconquered' Italy only for it to be taken by Germanics again the very next year.
Why do Romaboos constantly chimp out over "muh snowniggers", if anything the Germanics were lenient towards the Roman populace they conquered.
>>10845406knowledge of their own genetic inferiority makes them incredibly frustrated
>>10843024some german anon in this thread said he was taught about him, so I guess maybe they only removed him immediately after the war and reinstated his story in education somewhat later ? of course gdr said arminius was a heroic marxist revolutionary, haha
>>10844074you say that like it’s a good thing
What's all this about Germania's soil not being worthwhile? The Romans were already practicing intensive cultivation of the same dirt on their side of the border. The geology didn't suddenly change based on who possessed the land. Obviously the whole territory wasn't the same, and some of that land wouldn't be considered arable until a millennium later, but a great deal of the land between the Rhine and the Elbe was perfectly fine by Roman standards, just as-yet undeveloped. Is this incorrect? Am I missing something here? I have no stake in the germaboo vs romaboo arguments, I'm just confused about this point.
>>10842734>after Teutoburg settling Germania was out of the question and the Romans only staged a few expeditions to save face, In the end it didn't matter much,Why did they worship Germanicus so much when all he did was help them save face?
>>10842673He inherited the colossal titan and nuked the Roman troops with it
>>10845406They're just another flavor of the retarded schizo soup that makes up /his/.