The fundamental argument this book presents that the environment impacts civilization, why do you disagree anon?
Because I'm racist
>>10830644Jared says that the reason why China was able to unite, was because it was a single peninsula with two super rivers, instead of multiple peninsulas with dozen small rivers, is this a fair assement?
What exactly does this book have to say about blacks? Never read it but see it spammed here all the time.
>>10830644Factors outside of human control affecting human destiny is too scary
>>10830672Blacks never had a chance while whites had everything you could ask for
because it offends muh master race sensibilities
I dislike both environmental and biological determinist explanations for civilization.
>>10830644i agree but he overstates his case
Egypt had no problems
>>10830669>it was a single peninsulahas he never looked at a map of China?
>>10831235Where are the peninsulas anon? At best I can see three small peninsulas.
Diamond is a fraud with zero credibility. He merely cruises along because of his name, just like Bill Nye
>>10830644I don’t. Only retards disagree.Rightists will seethe because it means white peoples are not superior. Leftists will seethe because it means white people are just lucky not evil.
>>10830644It removes human agency and decision making from the courses of civilization
>>10830644I disagree because it is like writing a book where the fundamental premise is 1+1=2 then filling the rest of it with mathematical errors.
>>10831104Egypt had the Nile river.
>>10831104And huge empires were constantly built around Dnieper
>>10830644Agree, but there are other factors besides environmental
>>10830644He argues that environment dictates whether a certain area will develop advanced civilisations or not. Henceforth whether certain races will develop advanced civilisations or not. Far enough in my view and environment will be a large factor. However, what he doesn't take into account is the effect on the humans/races themselves after having developed advanced civilisations and where sexual selection has been at work through thousands of years.In his view a Aboriginal Australian and a Scandinavian are exactly the same. Despite Scandinavia having numerous advanced countries and the Aboriginal being unable to even build a simple combustion engine after thousands of years.
>>10831305Based>>10831361Bingo, your life doesn't matter and neither does anyone else's. Live for the pleasure of the moment because everything you do is determined by factors largely outside your control
>>10830644No, it presents environment as the sole driver behind civilization which is patently false.Africa didn’t have a two story building until Arabs came in and built one.Native Americans reached a level of technological and social achievement rivaling Iron Age Europe, in spite of their poor environment and lack of quality socialized fauna.
>>10831078You’re an idiot then. Explain why chimpanzees don’t create civilizations.And you can’t say “because they’re chimps” because the (99% of the) difference between a chimp and a human is genetic. So explain why chimps and humans are different without appealing to genes.
>>10832578So you're saying that blacks are like chimps?
>>10832578>something that's 1% different means that it's the sameAnon, I... we're talking within human civilizations, you have to go to 99.9% similarity until you can start differentiating between human ethnicities at the very extreme.
>>10832604He probably believes blacks aren't capable of living outside hunter gatherer tribes.
>The fundamental argument this book presents that the environment impacts civilization, why do you disagree anon?I disagree, although it is true that an environment shapes you. . . This book objectively does not argue it.
>>10830644Saying that environment is a factor in the development of human society is a very different thing from saying that it is the only factor.Historically, religion played a much larger role.
>>10832494>In his view a Aboriginal Australian and a Scandinavian are exactly the same. Despite Scandinavia having numerous advanced countries and the Aboriginal being unable to even build a simple combustion engine after thousands of years.I have never understood of some sparsely populated Norsemen were able to build revolutionary ships or organized autistically detailed fleets, meanwhile fucking Chinese all the wealth and population accidentally invents gunpowder but are too stupid to make proper use of it within 500 years, meanwhile within 50 years after Portuguese get their hands on they are able to perferct it it.
>>10832578>I can fall 2 feet down without getting hurt>so why can't I fall 200 feet without dying?>and don't say it's because of the heightNigger stop being such an intellectually dishonest troglodyte. Nobody has ever said that genes mean nothing. What they're saying is that genes don't mean anything IN THIS SITUATION, because the differences are so small as to be meaningless. Two chimpanzees in the same jungle literally have more than ten times the genetic difference between them, than two any randomly chosen human beings on the planet, have between themselves.
>>10831568>Kievan Rus>Empire If you mean a barely functioning body of semi independent Rurikid autists allying with pechenegs and cumans to murder their cousins in fratricidal politics sure
>>10832937>cuz it fractured after 100 years it means it was a confederation
>>10833052It effectively was within 3 generations for all intents and purposes
>>10832612I never got this view, does he think that Europeans were lying about the huge settled cities and villages in West and East Africa that they were marvelling at in the early Renaissance?>inb4 they learned it from the arabz broWe have evidence of actual independent subsaharan African discoveries (especially in West Africa) necessitated by the Sahara and Congo pushing them apart from other regions. On the other hand, Europe has been spoonfed technology by everywhere from the Levant to India and China for millennia and Northern Europe might as well have been the middle of the Congo before the mid-Renaissance for all the inventions they contributed to Eurasia until that time.
>>10830853Let's take this further. If you go with the out of Africa theory, that would mean "white" people decided to get out of Africa because basically it sucks to live there. So wouldn't they also be responsible for choosing a better environment to live in?
>>10830644>why do you disagree anon?Because Europe is terrible by most of Diamond's metrics and the only ones it is even passable are post hoc rationalizations like "peninsulas are good because Europe had a lot of peninsulas and Europe outperformed places like Africa that did not have a lot of peninsulas."The only way he is able to present his argument is by comparing Asia to Papua New Guinea and pretending that imbalance existed between Europe and the rest of the world combined.
>>10831078>I dislike both environmental and biological determinist explanations for civilization.Then you're an idiot, and you don't understand history on even a 6th grade level.
>>10832810>Nigger stop being such an intellectually dishonest troglodyte. You first.> Two chimpanzees in the same jungle literally have more than ten times the genetic difference between them, than two any randomly chosen human beings on the planet, have between themselves.That is based off of two populations of chimp that have been completely genetically separated due to an impassable (for chimps) river for over 800,000 years. Add into that chimp generations being shorter than human ones, then of course there will be more genetic difference between them and humans that split off from each other 100,000 years ago. Your emphasis on them living in the same jungle despite knowing the circumstances of their separation is dishonest.
>>10833840*500,000 years800k is between chimps and bonobos.
dont forget the papa new guinean ubermensch
>>10830644leftyfag types, take it and run because it can be constrewed as egalitarian or more importantly to them, favourable to niggers
>>10830853>barren frozen shithole far away from the silkroadGee what a privilege
>>10830644There's a clip about a city smack dab between the mexican-american border from that mexican video Kraut made that sums up why I disagree with Geodetermanism.
It's all hindsight isn't it? As a hypothetical, if great empires were built in the resource rich Southern Africa then some nerd would write a book about the amazing geographical advantages of Africa and shit talk Europe for being a frigid backwater.
>>10832494Jesus it's not that hard. It's just a dirty Jew diamond merchant anti white genocidal hate masked as scholarship. Holy fuck.
>>10830644Jared Diamond and everyone who posts this shit should be beheaded. It's an indictment on the United States specifically and the West generally that something so poorly written has gained such popularity.
>>10834324damn son get off that edge a bit lol
>>10830644Isn't his argument about Africans not being advanced because they didnt have horses? What does he have to say about Meso-America then?
>>10830644hes right, the problem is hes too scared to take it to the next logical conclusion, i.e. that humanity itself is molded by the environment, and humans in different parts of the world have distinct mental and physical capabilities
>>10832790But the Chinese developed gunpowder into guns in the 13th century and continually improved upon it since then. They also had powerful ships capable of travelling to other continents, see Zheng He.
>>10834334ok noel ignatiev
>>10834491which had shit accuracy and were no match for mongol bowls, even after Ming their firearms were shit and actually had to buy decent ones from Portuguesse
>>10834491>Zheng HeLMAO, this is a meme, his fleet only hugged the coast.
>>10830644Can someone finally post ryans 3 hour refutation and call it a day
>>10834641He just said "muh jewish author so it's bs"
>>10834658No he didnt you either havent watched it or argue deliberately in bad faith
>>10834673Not him, but link it.
>>10834658You obviously watched long enough to hear his joke about jared being jewish somewhere around 1.5 hours so you would know you are a liar Nice cope
>>10830656> Because I’m a spotty teen incel who acts like a contrarian dick in anonymous online forums but wouldn’t dream of openly professing racist views irlFTFY
>>10835090And what about it? There's nothing to gain by being open about my views. I still think other groups were less successful due to genetic factors.
>>10833858but many leftists hate geographic determinism
>>10835121Not him, but why? It makes sense for any great civilization to have an easy to access source of food and water.
>>10832494>In his view a Aboriginal Australian and a Scandinavian are exactly the same. Bad example. Jared Diamond expressly states that Melanesians are racially superior to white people. It's one of the few cases where he considers that race matters more than geography.
>>10835090>what do you mean you dont like being taxed into oblivion to fund welfare for violent and unproductive ethnic groups haha grow out of the contrarisnism already lmao
>>10834681That is a painted horse, /pol/yp
>>10835128He doesn't. He says that IF New Guineans are somehow different from Westerners in their genes, it's more likely that they'd be selected for craftiness and cleverness because those are skills that are highly beneficial to tribesmen trying to survive in the bush.
>>10835141Yes indeed germans in east africa specifically painted horses as Zebras and took pics riding them so that right wingers 150 years later could use it to refute a then unwritten book Good think you cleared that one upEven Disney is in on it painting horses as Zebras to make blacks look bad https://youtu.be/bq6--t0M0ms
>>10830644Because he is contractitory, europe's "perfect" geography made them conquer the world, while china's "perfect" geography made them complacent. Most of the book is are made up post-hoc explainations, he has no consistent methodic that can be applied to recreate his conclusions.
>>10835145By the way he's right on that point. although New Guineans have very low IQ they have very high spatial intelligence. they have evolved to perfectly match the needs of their complex mountainous and jungle environment.
>>10835158Europe is a bunch of countries that compete with each other, unlike China
I just wish Diamond would check his priveledge.
>>10835126>Not him, but why?this guy explains it >>10831305
>>10830644he doesnt take into consideration the fact that environment impacts biology and psychology (IQ of different races)
>>10831305ok but can you actually argue why the book is right mr enlightened centrist
>>10835191>trying this on /his/
>>10830853Africa has way more resources than Europe does. Plenty of rare metals and a lot of forestry. Despite that the Europeans built their civilization.
>>10831078Maybe you dislike them because you are interested in forgetting about the notion of race all-together. I know that in most cases people that negate the truth of causality are utter globalists. The rest may be civic nationalists, like the person who made the argument in that photo or are just undecided on their ideology. This is a very dangerous rhetoric to play against because that will imply eventual conflicts between people whether you like it or not. Furthermore, it has been shown through countless studies that mixing causes health problems and relational conflicts, so most mixed couples end up in divorce. In the relation with the photo, I haven't read March of the Titans yet, but the main arguments of this posts not only are dishonest, but are outright contradictory. The whole issue of blacks in Rome is pretty much non-existent, otherwise Europeans would look much darker because you, yourself said interracial marriage was common. Or were mutts and the rest of the blacks exterminated by the evil Christians?Let's not forget the red footnotes. Although, I agree with Sowell on many points, I find these arguments of his extremely sketchy. To assume, blacks and mulattos are uniform would an amateurish fallacy as when you are mixing you will never know what traits your offspring will have. On one hand it is because there are different varieties of what is considered "white" today. To say that daelofaelids, the purest of the nordics are the same as Paleo-Sardinians is a bit of stetch don't you think? Even mixes of these races are fundementally different seeing that majority neolithic countries are not just lower in IQ but possess poor emotional intelligence. Having analized this information, these mulattos would be very different especially when having different degrees of admixture.
>>10830669>>10831235>>10831283He said the Chinese coastline isn't rugged enough for dissidents to hide in, despite the numerous pirate coves
>>10831305>rightistsCringe redditor, go back
>>10830644Book is bullshit, blacks are lazy unproductive people thats why they didnt amount to much outside of Memethiopia. Anyone thats lived in Black America has witnessed how the genetic common black drags down their intelligent kin when they start to behave in a way that isnt a vicious cunt to their community.
>>10837656Hierarchy is not a God for you to worship.
>>10837632On the other hand, genes are very randomizable and that is a fact. In general though, black genes have been shown to be more dominant and that is an undeniable fact. Males will also have the upper hand as they carry dominant genes in general which can greatly influence a woman eggs even when she is with a different male (telegony). As an example take the case in which a black man mixes with a white woman. Most of the times the child ends up a chocolatey brown with a minor facial inheritance from the woman whether she is a blonde or med. The offspring's IQ though, will vary based on gender. If it's a male, the IQ will be close to their dad, if it is a female, it might be closer to the female. One more thing I would like to add is that you Americans do not have a clue about how a pure black person looks. Most blacks in USA have at least some degree of European genes inside them, due to the hundreds of years of mixing that took place in the age of slavery and after it. Here is a source to prove this claim: https://www.amren.com/news/2019/10/race-differences-in-intelligence-richard-lynn/On the whole, just because we see a certain make-up of peoples being as smart as the others through studies, that doesn't mean we can't see their inaccuracies. Modern studies, as efficient as they are, prove to be ineffective very quickly, because of mixing, an important factor which influences the rise and drop in IQ.
>>10834620It also followed established trade routes>>10832790In fairness Europeans would also takes ages to master gunpowder but also had many independent inventions that didn't feed back east like cornering
>>10833135>celts inventing chain mail isn't important
>>10833764>Chilean fishing civ doesn't count because I said it doesn't count
>>10832602Is that what (You) think?>>10832612Cope retard.I am saying there are inherent biological differences between blacks and whites that create variation in behavior, physicality, and psychological state, all of which combined leads to variation on a civilization and societal scale.>ur jus raycisAnd you’re 85 IQ.Are you black or part black perchance?>>10833135Europeans never considered any African civilization as something which could rival their own in either military strength or cultural achievement.You’re fellating yourself and that other retard by snidely attacking a straw man which has never existed.>dum whitey ain you eva’ heard of Mali hmmm?Just fuck off. We have heard about the endless mud palaces of Africa. We just don’t think they compare to the hadron collider, the coliseum, a fantasy tier city on a lake, or a transcontinental empire. >>10832604The difference between humans and chimps is primarily in their genes, agree or disagree?>>10832810I am merely pointing out that extreme differences are the result of genes.Why does this principal apparent in all of natural science suddenly become not only taboo but morally repugnant when used to compare humans despite its similar validity? Is the difference between the Wolf and the chihuahua down to genes?Is the difference between a Pygmy African and an Icelander down to genes?Would a race of Dolph Lundgrens create something different than a race of Gordon the Abos?
>>10835141Except the hair proves its a zebra
>>10830644Environment impacts people which THEN impacts civilization
>>10832790China was far enough ahead of any regional competitor that all it wanted to do was to keep the status quo, and thus was reluctant to embrace innovation.At worst it could lead to a dreadnaught type of situation, where the new invention makes all your other stuff obsolete and negates your previous advantages.
>>10831078Agree to an extent. Civilization is not always born in the most convenient location, nor to a clear racially superior people, rather, it is the result of both extraordinary people and circumstance. It is well documented that many aspects originally believed to be unique to civilization existed before the discovery of agriculture, meaning that more advanced societies did exist in hunter gatherer groups across the globe. Civilization as we know it, that is, cultures which left significant structures that can be anthropological analyzed, appear across the globe from Australia to the Americas with no cross cultural contact, indicating that the biological theory of civilization is incorrect. The birthplaces of civilization range from the very fertile dank river valleys to the most hostile environment on the planet, the Central American rainforest. The existence of the Olmec civilization single handed my disproves the hypothesis of environmental determinism. The Central American rainforest can be compared in habitability to the moon, especially for technologically young people’s. The ground is limestone and fails to retain water at all, collapsing into deep sinkholes called cenote that have a habit of drying up. Plants choke out all life in the deep jungle and deadly apex predators and other animals make it difficult to live. Agriculture is near impossible due to both the prolific jungle environment, poor soul, and lack of water despite being a rain forest. Yet, Olmec civilization overcame these major obstacles to create civilization.
>>10837960It's not what I think. You're projecting.
>>10837960>I am saying there are inherent biological differences between blacks and whites that create variation in behavior, physicality, and psychological state, all of which combined leads to variation on a civilization and societal scale.Historians even in the 1930s didn't think this.
>>10838024Why didn't it develop during the various warring states period it had had, why were Qing guns still so shit
>>10838024vs the Europeans who were constantly being threatened by the Ottomans, even before Constantinople fell they launched several joint campaigns to repell Ottomans from Europe with no luck
>>10837632>Disagree with race theory and you are a globalist or undecided in ideologyOkay, or, maybe you can hear this out without running away to pol, it is possible for people to believe in an ideology OTHER than nationalism or globalism. Maybe some people just do not see the flimsy proof for global racial causality theory to be accurate, especially those who are educated in histories other than exclusively European. Anyone who has studied Native American anthropology, or archeology in general, can attest to how incorrect racial theory is especially given the achievements of other civilizations. In global context, one learns that Europeans are not unique in any way from most other civilizations other than they managed to somehow break out of the Malthusian trap.
>>10837960>I have never studied history prior to the 1800s either globally or in EuropeYou should try learning about what the world was like before the industrial revolution made Europe the most technologically advanced portion of the planet. It is fascinating how wrong your assumptions about the world are when you actually study past one specific era.
>>10835191The Chinks had endless civil wars lmao
>>10835158>Because he is contractitory, europe's "perfect" geography made them conquer the world, while china's "perfect" geography made them complacent. Most of the book is are made up post-hoc explainations, he has no consistent methodic that can be applied to recreate his conclusions.this. Using his own logic there is no reason why the British Empire should have ever existed.>cold, shitty, backwater island>not rich in any kind of special resource>population is made up of many conflicting cultures with completely different languages>is subject to viking raids for hundreds of years>is even colonized by Romans at one point and treated in the same manner as what happened to Africans>despite this the British Empire was the largest to ever exist and made its language and culture the universal standardof course the author copes hard with "its because it was so shitty that it became great!"
>>10838146>It is well documented that many aspects originally believed to be unique to civilization existed before the discovery of agricultureLike what for example?
>>10830644because you're either a racist retard or a nitpicking liberal hysteric
>>10835158he doesnt claim that Europe or China have similar geography, he says they both have really good geography for different ends: China for the creation of large highly populous unified polities, europe for dynamism, diversity, and maritime tradition - the latter just turned out to be the more important factor in world history than large singular empires, though this trend may soon be reversed.
>>10837960This. Amerindian civilization potential being higher than europeans' probably has a genetic cause.
>>10830644Drop a bunch of niggers in the middle of a European forest and see if they'll ever build a functional civilization.Hint: they won't.
>>10838153But I don’t think blacks are like chimps you fucking retard.You are trying to paint all reasonable opposition as >hurrrr me dumb racist smart and reasonable people can clearly see the failure of Africa when compared to Meso-America.>>10838159And?Do you have an alternative?Everything is determined purely by environment? Ok, you’re left with the Icelander-Pygmy problem.Is it genes or the environment that causes pygmies to suck ass at Icelandic basketball?>>10838209Why don’t you actually present an argument or refute my factual claims instead of doing this weird thing blacks do where you try to pretend the opposing side is just ignorant of some rich forgotten history.>>10839363Exactly.Amerindians tend to be more neotenous, physically weaker, shorter, often lower IQ. This would lead to civilization as a requirement for sustained expansion in Central America. Whereas BVLL Europeans had robust features, monstrous strength, and an unmatched cunning allowing them to get by in a very harsh environment without needing the crutch of bugman civilization.
>>10838183Yes because England was so badly focused on being good enough for the Ottomans rather than just continuing the Anglo French rivalry. Why did constant fear of steppe people and pirates not cause advanced gun powder techniques?
>>10838209Prior to the 1800s Europe was the most advanced lmao, although this was largely Rome, and then the 1700s
>>10838209Don't forget copper and bronze start in the urals and so metallurgy begins all those years ago in Europe
>>10830644because it’s obviously a lot more complicated than that, Diamond is just a liberal and has to think with his heart. his main idea is actually quite racist as he is stating that Africans are behind culturally just because they were different.
>>10838190>they are not unique in any way>except for this one, massive way that allowed them to dominate the world
>>10838896>>not rich in any kind of special resourceall true except this, britain was very rich in coal
>>10840195>Do you have an alternative?It's somewhere in the middle. Don't be a tard and pretend you know better than people who study history professionally.>Is it genes or the environment that causes pygmies to suck ass at Icelandic basketball?Are French people genetically predisposed to start drinking wine as teenagers? Are old Italian men genetically predisposed to watch construction sites in progress and give advice to passersby? Are Filipinos and Thais genetically destined to smile a lot?
>>10833861How is the european south a barren frozen shithole?
>>10840195>smart and reasonable peopleNazis are smart and reasonable?
>>10837265>Despite that the Europeans built their civilizationbiggest mistake they ever made
>>10830644Guy is retard
Here's a question.The premise of Diamond's book is that it is possible to objectively rate the geographic advantages/disadvantages of all the earth's regions, and if those rankings perfectly correlate with historic and present success, then that is proof that all of the earth's populations/races are equally intelligent.So what happens if one region is objectively poor, but performs better than other regions? Would that be proof that the inhabitants of that region are more intelligent than the population of regions ranked higher but accomplished less?If not then what other factors should be considered and why should those factors not be considered in the original premise?
>>10840195Dunno about requirement but Amerindian civilization potential is factually higher than european civilization potential.
>>10840401>his main idea is actually quite racist as he is stating that Africans are behind culturally just because they were different.I thought that his idea was the complete opposite, suggesting that if Europeans had spawned in Africa and Africans in Europe, the Black people would have dominated the world with all the resources white men had thanks the geographic position.I don't know if that makes much sense, Europe didn't actually have that much resources, most of east Asian countries had a lot more, and so did West Africans
>>10830644His book has inaccuracies but at least he is not a post-modernist who thinks grand narratives in history are bad, which I can respect.
>>10830644This book is retarded. Obviously a cultures environment moulds the culture but he bends over backwards to avoid the inconvenient fact that a culture also moulds it's environment because to hold this position would get you branded with certain -isms >Muh zebras
>>10841498>what happens if one region is objectively poor, but performs better than other regions? Would that be proof that the inhabitants of that region are more intelligent than the population of regions ranked higher but accomplished lessIt could also just mean that the leaders of said region created shitty institutions. Which is basically the history of Russia (which has amazing geological potential) in the past few centuries.
>>10840455Britain was a superpower WAY before coal had industrial use.
>>10835191Is this why the three kingdoms were so developed and competitive, oh wait...
>>10840514I do know history better than Jared Diamond who no degree in history and no formal education.>are these behavioral traits genetic in origin Yeah to a degree. Africans are not going to discuss the fine arts of underwater fishing next to a swimming pool like someone from Oceania will.>>10840634I didn’t know questioning the absurd proposition of environmental determinism made someone a Nazi.But yeah if Nazis support the empirical data then sure why wouldn’t they be reasonable?>>10842025True.Europeans are chads who did not historically require civilization to prosper.Weaker peoples, less hardy and less capable of withstanding physical toil needed to acquaint themselves with civilization in order to avoid extinction.Amerindians do seem to be hardlocked forever just outside of modern society.So maybe they have a bonus to research speed but have less techs overall.
>>10838159Well doesnt Matter if they thought that back then or not its still true
>>10830644this book is talked on /his/ and /lit/ all the time and everyone bags on this trash
>>10843276>Yeah to a degree. Africans are not going to discuss the fine arts of underwater fishing next to a swimming pool like someone from Oceania will.You're a parody of yourself.
>>10830644But blacks grew up in an ideal environment for humans which would be warm winterless regions.
>>10843276Wrong answer. Nazis are to be gulag'd no matter what.
>>10843352Back then, there was no social pressure (like we allegedly have now) to not be racist. In fact, it was in fashion to be racist.