is this true?were the atomic bombings of japan unnecessary and morally reprehensible?https://twitter.com/roun_sa_ville/status/1291455311841316865?s=21
>>10516459Start shit get hit
>>10516459...kindaYou need to remember whilst a lot of cities had been bombed over the proceeding years, bombing of cities (not nuclear, just conventional bombs) was a pretty recent thing. Guernica in 1937 was the first proper one (there were a few early things from WWI where people dropped grenades from planes and stuff, but not proper bombings). So it was a thing that was 8 years old in 1945. And people had been a little bit pre-occupied in those years and there hadn't been enough time to properly study the effects of bombing.It was thought, not without reasonable logic, that things like Hiroshima and Nagasaki, as well as firebombings of cities like Tokyo and of course Dresden in Germany, could be justified through a utilitarian argument. I mean, 10 to 15 THOUSAND people were dying per DAY. If you can destroy one city and that brings the war to conclusion a month earlier, than really you've saved lives, right? At very least that was the defence given at the time and for decades afterwards.Well here we are 80 years after the war, and lots more wars have been fought and lots more studies have been done and lots more cities have been bombed, and what we've found out is this utilitarian argument doesn't really work. The Nazis didn't rise up against Hitler after Dresden. The Japanese soldiers didn't refuse to fight any more after Hiroshima. When you pulverise cities with bombs the survivors don't end up furious at their leaders, or going awol or striking or mutinying or anything like that.They just kinda...go numb. They just don't really react any more. If you've never lost a close family member before and one dies on the front, you burst into tears. But if next month another dies on the front. And another next month. And now this month your last remaining family member gets a bomb dropped on them. At this point you don't cry. You just go numb. So yeah, the nukes weren't justified in hindsight, but at the time they thought it would end the war quicker.
>>10516514The nukes were absolutely justified you retard. Are you listening to yourself.> you just go kinda numb They fucking surrendered you retard. Bombing them saved tens of thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Jap lives. It was mercy.
>>10516459It entirely depends if you think the bombing of cities is justified. Bare in mind almost every other jap city got hit just as bad with conventional bombs it's just with nukes it was one bomb and it's people's suffered with radiation poisoning which wasn't fully understoodFrom a humanitarian perspective all bombing of cities is wrong but I think the scientific perspective of getting to see the effects of this new bomb were too good to pass up especially considering the rest of the country was blown to bits already
No.Operation Downfall would have been horrific.
>>10516459Why do commies care so much about the atomic bombs but not about the Blitz of Britain, Strategic Bombing of Germany, Soviet bombing of civilian targets, or hell, even Tokyo firebombing?
>>10516527There were many, many factors in the Japanese surrender.Were Hiroshima and Nagasaki factors? YesWas conventional bombing a factor? YesWas the Soviet declaration of war a factor? YesWas the resource shortage a factor? YesIf you genuinely believe that the nukes were the one and only factor that led to surrender, then the simply question is, why two? The revelation that the Americans had (and were prepared to use) a super weapon that can destroy an entire city in a heartbeat was not enough to make the Japanese surrender if they only used one, but two was the magic number?
>>10516618because BIG BOMB make BIG BOOM. It's easier to understand for retards (aka commies)
>>10516459I don't care about the Far East (except Russia) so I don't have any moral objections to it.
>>10516459>Dumbshit tankie whining about anything the US does on twitterNo, it isn't true. But let's assume for a second that the US *could* have fought an extended land war in the Japanese mainland without killing more Japs than the nukes did, the Japs deserved it at that point (>>10516466) They thought they could sneak attack a random foreign country, butcher hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians, and all around act like dickheads with no repercussions. And here's the thing, the Japanese high command *knew* they were on the ropes way before the nukes. They knew they couldn't win, fuck even before Pearl Harbor they knew they would lose in an all out war with the US. (Hence why they were hoping we would keel over immediately after Pearl Harbor instead of getting pissed). Yet their high command chose not to surrender. No fuck them, fuck the Japs, their high command chose to start the war, any and all blame should be pointed at them, not the US.
>>10516618It is wehraboo revisionism for the 21st century. Instead of characterizing the Soviets as mindless rape goblins for political gain, they characterize the allies as mindless rape goblins for political gain.
>>10516708Is this bait? The Japanese weren't going to surrender over losing Manchuria or oil shortages. In the supreme council they were talking about the bomb and the potential of Tokyo and Kyoto receiving one.
>>10516466I love that this image is still relevant, and still more than enough to end the thread in one post.
>>10516459Unnecessary? NoMorally Reprehensible? Yes
>>10516459>Weeb>CommieWhy are these """people""" even allowed to breathe?
>>10516459>anime pfptheir opinion is automatically invalid.
>>10516459literally who gives a shit? every Japanese man was a rapist, thug and torturer, every Japanese boy was was a rapist in training, and every Japanese woman was involved in making the cloth for his uniform, the bullets for his rifle and the disgusting-tasting rice for his Nip stomach. every single Jap deserved to die after the revolting psychopathic horrors they inflicted on anyone they could get their hands on. Fuck Japs
>>10517203All those American soldiers died so their great-granddaughters could get fucked by blacks and Latinos. Hell even their former enemies are fucking their women, I have JAV videos of white women with Japanese men open right now. That's what you get for fighting for a mutt feminist shithole.
>>10516618I do. Literally all of these were allied war crimes. They were the ONLY real "holocaust" that ever occurred between 1939 and 1945.
>>10517223>All those American soldiers died so their great-granddaughters could get fucked by blacks and Latinosand all those suicidal little Nip rapists that called themselves "soldiers" died for even less. consider us even. cope, slant-eye
>>10516618>>10517233As for the Blitz of Britain, that was aimed against legitimate military targets such as munitions factories. A handful of civilians died to collateral damage, but they didn't go out of their way to kill as many civilians as possible as the allies did.
>>10516459>Waaaaah! We got nuked!It was very important to show the world what we do to people who attack us and the fact that they wouldn't surrender until the second one shows that it was very needed. What? Are we supposed to die in droves just so Japanese people live? We fixed the nation afterward so it's all good. Did innocents die? Sure but thats life.
>>10516618Because that was white on white violence. The nuking of Japan was racist.
>>10517239Japan will still be around when the last whites in the USA are getting their just desserts and are being raped and murdered by the brown and black hordes. Japan will have the last laugh.
>>10516459How do gommie weaboos not realize that modern anime is the culmination of Japanese capitialism?
>>10517249Would have had anime a lot earlier had they not been nuked.
>>10517246America was never really a white nation. That delusion is the source of most of our problems. When we all inevitably mix we'll still be Americans and still think the same way. And at some point drop more nukes.
>>10517255Most likely, but Japan would still be capitalistic if they weren't nuked.
>>10516459Was anybody's life made better by this twitter post though?
>>10517246>Japan will still be aroundnot with those birth rates
>>10516459Weird. All the old Japs I talked to, would begin apologizing for Pearl Harbor to me; when they’re family introduced them to me. Furthermore they don’t even talk about the Fat Man and Little Boy.
>>10517466>Japan a nation whose citizens are historically non-Christian (Shintoism or Buddhism are the major religions), a disproportionately large number of the Nagasaki victims were Christian.>Most Worshipful Brother Harry S. Truman ordered the attack (aka FreeMason)Coincidence? I think not.
>>10516618Whites can’t just go around killing POC. It’s wrong.
I naturally feel more sympathy for the Japanese because they were POC fighting against western colonialism while nazis were fighting for western colonialism and to enslave non-whites. I just can’t hate the Japanese like I hate the Germans. I just can’t. They’re not the same. The Japanese truly had good intentions.
does literally anyone besides 1st world white """communists""" care about some dead nips from 70 something years ago
>>10516618Because they're weabs. Being a militaristic fascistic state is ok if you make animes later
>>10516919>Instead of characterizing the Soviets as mindless rape goblinsThat's true though
>>10516459>unprecedented act of violenceOnly by its swiftness. There have been many more massacres of cities that have killed just as much if not more>militarily unnecessary They nuked cities that had military installations and it lead to their surrender with only 100k deaths. If the US decided to invade, the deaths would have easily been quadrupled.>morally reprehensible Are we talking about someone else here? Rape of Nanking ring any bells?This just reeks of a seething weeb that has a blind hatred of America.
>>10517261Except according to your founding fathers, LMAO. You maintained +85% white demographics until the late 1980's.
>>10516466/thread, japs had it coming and two nukes was going easy on them
>>10516514germans surrendered in droves after dresden, it was a clear signal that it was over, there is one story of a jeep running into a german armored column, instead of being turned into charred wreckage a german general came up to them assuming they had been sent to receive his surrender
>>10517564don't lie to yourself so you can justify your self-righteousness, it's a racial thing. they fought white people while the nazis were white. you express the idea in sugar sweet language but the sentiment is fairly clear.
>>10518046>All men are created equalEven if not followed that's what it says and it should be taken seriously. Africans Americans were there from the beginning and Immigrants built it up. The Latinos are native to a bunch of the states. The Chinese were crucial in the western development. It was a group effort.
>>10518444You can use whatever ad-hoc rationalization you want, mutt. None of the founding fathers wanted the US to be some mystery meat shithole and you were meant to be a white country.The "melting pot" narrative was literally invented by a Jew.
>>10516618>or hell, even Tokyo firebombingYeah, shit was much more horrific than nukes
>>10518487fuck em.these cunts would rather jump off cliffs than be given free food and a ride to safety. Immoliation for their emperor ig just fine. Their ugenics backed cultural xenophobia led them to believe they were better than the chinese they descended from, and i bet they were. They made superior charcoal briquettes.fuck the jap cunts. Dont blame wartime shortages for the inherent, intentional, and planned atrocities. Blame your own goddamn selves for thinking you can tangle with a real western power just because you sank 2 *russian* fleets the war before this. If god wanted the russians to swim he woild have traded their skates for warm water ports.
>>10518479We aren't a monarchy, they may have set the groundwork but their feelings aren't important. The fact is that America would have been wiped off the map had it not allowed massive immigration. The slave trade wasn't a good thing but the fact is blacks had a huge hand in the nation's development. Without immigrants the wasps wouldn't have been able to expand west or be what they are today. America is not a homogenous nation and never really was.
>>10516915>tankieWe don't claim these faggots, reactionaries deserve to pay for their transgressions. They had the nukes coming.
>>10518561If they were "already defeated and ready to surrender" then why did it take two bombs over the course of a week for them to surrender? They wanted to keep pushing on and you know it.
>>10518556>dude all men are created equal we have to believe that>fuck the founding fathers though what they said isn't importantHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>10516459>there were Japanese who continued to fight on years after the war ended>militarily unnecessary
>adopt and ideology of racial superiority>Start war with major world power and allies>Refuse to surrender when the enemy is on your door step.I really don't care, same thing goes for the Germans being bombed out of existence too, they started a SECOND global war while singing the praises of "strength over all" and I am supposed to get guilty when our side turned out to be the strongest?
>>10516459Unnecessary? Maybe. We can't know. But it was totally justified.You should not expect to be able to attack a country that has nuclear weapons and not get nuked, that would defeat the whole point of having nukes. Granted no one knew nukes would exist when the war started but frankly, given they knew they couldn't win and still did it anyway for the sake of 'honor' and killing 'sub-humans' I have no sympathy.
>>10518818America started the war
>>10516854Jesus Christ, Truman was fucking savage.
>>10517175Katyusha is based though
>>10518550Japanese aren't descended from the Chinese, stop this meme. There's more genetic distance between the Japanese and Chinese than there is between Greeks and Icelanders.
>>10519123Yes, they are you dumb fuck. Japs are essentially Chinese mutts.
>>10516854What a giga chad
>>10519137Listen you illiterate retard, the Japanese are more closely related to Koreans than the Chinese, but even then, just because their ancestors came from the Korean peninsula doesn't mean they're exact genetic copies of modern day Koreans. And calling Japanese "Chinese mutts" is a bit idiotic considering China has, as recognized by the CCP it's self, 52 ethnicities within it's boarders. The Chinese themselves are mutts. And the modern Japanese are a Yayoi-Jomon mix, with a bias towards the Yayoi part of their DNA. The Yayoi were an ancient people who crossed over from the Korean peninsula who share very little genetic similarity to most of the ethnicities that today reside in China. Just because you mutt Americans are jealous and envious of the relatively genetically pure Japanese doesn't mean you should make up shit.
>>10516459No, it was 100% justified and seething tankie-tards crying about anything the U.S or G.B or any other major western power does are all literal ubermensch who can never be trusted and I don't even believe in racial science lmao.
>>10517246NOT AT THEIR CURRENT BIRTH RATE LMAO
>>10519163The Chinese are not mutts, the Japs are. They are not ''pure yamato race'' they are not exceptional, you retarded weebshit. I am not making anything up, you delusional fucking cretin.
>>10519179>>10517461Why do you people not know how the world works? Japan is overpopulated as it is, the amount of people living there is unprecedented. Just because the population is reducing as more people are dying than are born (probably because over half the population of Japan is over 50 years old) doesn't mean young people suddenly stop reproducing. Japan's birth rates are a non issue, young people still have children, just not enough to replace the huge amount of elderly they have that die each year.
>>10519192In 200 years they won't exist anywhere
>>10518601Typical mass produced midwit does not value life, no surprise.
>>10517564They wanted to replace Western colonialism with their own. It wasn't to have a big Pan-Asian kumbiyah session. Look at what they did to the Chinese.
>>10518561Just going to add to >>10518601's point, parts of the Japanese High Command tried to overthrow the emperor after the bombs were dropped in order to prevent surrender. Enough of the IJA and IJN command was willing to fight to the last man to make it a possible reality
>>10516708> one> twoTo show the Japs that they had multiple bombs and could continue the bombing immediately if they didn’t surrender
Japan surrendered because of the Soviet invasion of Manchuria and the just-about-to-start invasion of Hokkaido.Shit, if they waitied 3 more days they'd have been actually invaded right where they had absolutely no defences since everything was put onto Kyushu. 3 days after the surrender the Soviets launched their invasion but it went to the Kurils instead,The nuke meme is just the american literal brainwashing they go through "education" during which they get "taught" that WW1 was won due to America (somehow), Germany surrendered because of the US/Soviets beat the Germans ONLY because of muh land-lease, Japan surrendered because of the nukes despite being firebombed for over a year already.
>>10518561Not one of these three were part of the Pacific War
Start shit get hit. They were justified.
>>10519479Nowhere in Japan’s surrender documents did they mention the Soviet Union. Get your head out of Stalin’s decomposing ass.
>>10519564Because they surrendered to the Americans hoping to get a better deal which they did considered what the Soviets, literal anathema of what Japan was at the time (they literally thought of the Soviets as the Satan incarnate) would've done to them.Same thing happened to all these germans who tried their very best to flee west and surrender to the British or the Americans instead of finding out what the Soviets had in store for them. Don't be silly Cleetus.
>>10516459>unnecessary and morally reprehensible?...only to the extent at only a maximum of 2 atomic bombs were dropped. What Japan did warranted 20.
>>10516618Retards literally think Atom bombs in 1945 were some sort of megadeath supersuffering doomsday device, as opposed to just "slightly more damage than what 300 bombers could accomplish"
>>10519614I mean, at the time, they sure seemed like it.
>>10516459Yes, they were. Obese redneck mutts making these retarded pics is not an argument: >>10516466Watch this video and get educated: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCRTgtpC-Go
>>10519661you posted cringe
>>10519661why are all communist youtubers so feminine and meek? can't watch this shit
>>10516459>tankie >calling anyone else morally reprehensible while supporting governments that killed tens of thousands on a daily basis
>>10519673>>10519683>>10519692Not an argument.
>>10519661Whats with this youtuber and retards who just link him without giving any sort of argument? Can you say anything independently or can you only speak through links to e-celebs?
>>10519700How about this.They attacked the US.The US developed nukes.Nothing else had made them surrender."Fuck it, why not try?"Even if it didn't work, all that speaks to is the insanity of the Japanese, it's not America's fault the Japs are so nuts they won't give up even if they're being vaporized.
>>10519700>dude watch the two hour video of a youtuber explaining the nukes and then give an argumentHow about you just give me some main points from the video so I can either agree with or refute?
>>10519707>>10519716>>10519722Pro-bombing argument: we dropped 'em because they wouldn't surrender.Anti-bombing argument: they were ready to surrender and even American presidents agree with this fact: >>10518561Simple as.
Level a city with thousands of bombs>"It's tragic but it's war, what can you do?"Level a city with one bomb.>"Autistic screeching"There is no legitimate argument against the nukes besides arguing against strategic bombing in general. Nuking Hiroshima was no morally different than firebombing Berlin and Tokyo.
>>10519746They wouldn't surrender unconditionally. They basically wanted to get away with it - lose their empire but continue as a country with the same people in charge. Fuck that.In fact, I think the wrong targets were nuked. They should have nuked Tokyo and killed the Emperor and the entire military high command because they fucking deserved it, even if the Emperor's death would likely mean the Japanese wouldn't surrender at all and would have to be slaughtered.
>>10519700Of all 4 of those, only the nuke was ok.
>>10519762Thats retarded and edgy. The main point of the bombs was to make them surrender while killing only 100k people. If the Allies nuked Tokyo they would have had to invade Japan and cause far more casualties than necessary on both sides.Besides that I would say that the humiliation of getting mogged in a picture shown to millions is a far worse fate than getting nuked.
>>10519746>Surrender Reseting the map to pre war borders isn't a surrender it is asking for a do-over. Which was unacceptable.
>>10519700I'd like you to find me an American on the street who laughs at the massacre of Indians and the burning of Vietnamese villages. Nearly every American has a lot of self guilt about the fact that those events took place.
>>10516459>unnecessary Maybe.>morally reprehensibleAbsolutely.
>>10519803Nah, they deserved it. If the Japanese were so nuts that killing their war criminal leaders would lead them to fight to the death then fuck it, kill every single one of them.
>>10519746The allied powers agreed to accept no less than unconditional surrender from the axis.
>>10519746>they were ready to surrenderBut not ready for a unconditional surrender of which that was THE ONLY SURRENDER THAT ANY OF THE ALLIED POWERS WOULD AGREE TO AT THIS POINT AND HAD PULBIC SAID THAT. Do people on this board on even know what the fuck happened at the Yalta Conference in early 45? The USSR said that is what they wanted to happen to the left over Axis and that if the UK and US did not accept this they would pool out of the war before Germany was finished. The UK and US said okay, we will have this as a party line.
>>10519661basedboys can't handle the rugged masculinity of 1940s America
>>10519762>>10519811>>10519852>>10519872They were trying to negotiate the peace treats both with the US and the Soviet Union. You can't say they would absolutely not accept unconditional surrender because the US didn't actually try to negotiate anything, just dropped the bombs hastily.
>>10519661Thank you, now i made up my mindI was kind of on the fence on this subject and willing to listen arguments from either side, but now knowing this fucking faggot was against it, i'm definitely convinced that the bombs were, indeed, entirely justified
>>10519906This nigga does not know.
>>10519906> negotiate the peace treats> negotiate>unconditional surrender >unconditionalYou are failing to process what was happening here. The US wanted them to just say "we give up, what happens next happens". Ideally in a public manner to prevent a armed uprising after the fact. The Japanese were will to surrender in a negotiated peace with terms. They wanted to keep korea.
>>10519182Lmao cope more historically and biologically illiterate retard
>>10516459No it wasn't necessary.Take a look at the global context.Truman only did it so the Japs would surrender to him and not to the Soviets.With the Soviet declaration of war it was just a matter of time before the Japs would have surrendered to those offering the best bargain.American posters needn't attempt a response to this
i love when leftists and communists defend actual mass raping mass murderer fascists because they are not white
>>10516459The OP is a /pol/tard, whining about what we justifiably did to Hitler's gook friends./Pol/tards think the only times whites have been bad to non-whites was when Japanese Americans were interned, and America dropped an atomic bomb on Japan. Of course, /pol/tards only think this because Hitler was allied with Japan.
>>10519906>Negotiate something other than an unconditional surrenderLol no
>>10520549But /pol/ considers Japanese as whites? you make no sense friendo. lol.
>>10516459If the allies invaded japan instead it would have resulted in millions of deaths, possibly on both sides
>>10519906>negotiatingWhat part of unconditional surrender do you fags not get? The Axis were to be destroyed entirely, no more delusions about "we didnt actually lose" which had spawned in Germany after WW1
>>10519434Not the Japanese High Command. They knew things were over, even the hardliners in the Army Ministry and general staff. The coup was conceived and carried out by mid-level officers from the War Ministry, and they were rebuffed when they tried to loop in senior officers in the Army Ministry and general staff. >>10519530Leahy was one of the members of the Joint Chiefs and worked closely with Admiral King. He was the essentially the chairman of the joint chiefs before the role officially existed. He was absolutely involved in the Pacific war.
>>1051700890% of Tokyo had been firebombed to ground already, and U.S could so the same to Kyoto - it chose not to.
>>10519182>The Chinese are not mutts, the Japs are.Holy fuck what a chink cope. Ok Zhang. japs are descended from Jomon (locals, but from pacific isles) and Yayoit (mongolic asians). Meanwhile the Han Chinese were assraped by the Mongols, Jurchens and Manchus
>>10516459Why do leftists defend Imperialists who buddied up with the Nazis? How does Japan get away with it? How do they manage to be viewed as victims?
They were necessary and morally reprehensible.Americans really need to stop pretending they are the good guys, there are no good guys.
The majority of 4chan posters are american ergo the majority of posters itt defend the undefendable act of mass killings of civilians.You were just indoctrinated with American public education, and you're probably Trump, Biden or Clinton voters. Most humans in the world today look on America with utter disgust. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki violate every law of human decency and honor. America, the most evolved nation on the face of earth, proved itself no better than barbarians. And we, the world, will remember, long into the future, the sheer atrocity that you have committed upon these innocent civilians.
>>10521199Talk shit, get hit. I only regret we didn't have the bomb earlier so Berlin would be radioactive waste as well.
>>10516459>commie pfpopinion discarded, commies should be shot on sight
>>10521214Can't wait until China blows you mutts out
>>10521199suck my dick japanese nigger ,we shouldve bombed you another time
>>10521219More likely some Eurangotan tribe starts acting up again. See you soon.
>>10521225Fuck off you fat shart
>amerisharts attempt to nuke Japan>they fuck up in some spectacular fashion and nuke Germany instead>they try again>end up nuking themselvesLiterally best end
Why can't we have an atomic bombing thread without it turning into a general /int/ seething at America thread
>unprecedented act of violence>killed 100,000 peoplelol. not even top 10.
>>10518610Pathetic that people like you would rather ruin our country than accept that you aren't special.
>>10521225>americans not realizing their time as overlords is over because the enemy has nukes nowFeels strange knowing you can't victimize innocent civilians anymore since they can retaliate huh?Hope you won't be on short notice for when the world looks away and you all perish from hunger, riots and pollution
>>10519700Only a disingenuous faggot would act like Japan was some helpless victim. They broke the rules of war and committed multiple atrocities. They were told to surrender and they didn't. They lost and now we improved them from being some neo-feudalist shithole. It's people have democracy. The parasitic emperor cult is broken. They're economy is among the strongest on the planet. And they're happier. Fuck imperial japan, fuck the old euro empires, fuck the ussr, fuck the nazis, and fuck you. We won the war by right of strength and hold the world by right of strength. All the sneering hatred and condescension in the world won't change the fact that we are the bulwark of western civilization at this point and we saved the world in WWII. Don't start a war you don't have the strength to win.
>>10521284Well on the other hand, saying that Japan surrendered because of the nukes kinda entails that the efforts of the Air Force and Army would not have been enough to "make" Japan surrender, so perhaps thats why LeMay was so adamant in saying that nukes didn't get Japan to surrender
>>10516459It is not true and is broadly recognized by historians as untrue. Tankies are so tiresome
>>10517710Rape of Nanking was made up.There was no order, no plans, no budget.Soldiers don't start killing and raping for no reason, especially disciplined japanese soldiers.
>>10516459it was morally reprehensible that they were only nuked twice. 500 would have been much more fitting
>>10521304We literally blew up a mountain range in Afghanistan a couple of years ago with incendiary missiles just because. We drone strike people who cross us. And we have saved most of you from ushanka hat wearing assholes or red star wearing assholes. We've been a hell of a lot more merciful than the Europeans were when they ruled. Always remember that no matter how much you hate us you need us and we wouldn't be here if not for your imperialism.
>>10516708Because one is a message. Two is a pattern. The plan was to drop as many as 7 by the end of October. They showed they were willing to end Japan as a civilization and a people. That is why they capitulated
>>10521328>They broke the rules of war and committed multiple atrocities.They're not the ones who dropped the nukes tho>They were told to surrender and they didn't.By who? War isn't over until the enemy realizes they can't fight anymore, which Japan did by summer of 1945. Hirohito was considering surrender>we improved them from being some neo-feudalist shithole.Happened in the 1920s, you'd know this if you weren't American> They're economy is among the strongest on the planet.America was seething back then that the japs got such a quick recovery lolI would honestly soi-quote you if not for the assurance that you'd immediately click the report button like the American you are. Your infant country is no match for any real civilization; even Japan, an offshoot of the much older Chinese civilization, has more claims to nobility and genuine civilization than your shallow consumeristic country.
>>10517233There are no war crimes when you win. You are joking right?
>>10521356>we have saved most of you from ushanka hat wearing assholes or red star wearing assholes.Who says we needed your help? Would much rather be under Moscow than Washington, lmao>>10521361>The plan was to drop as many as 7 by the end of October.No chance that would have gone through (Japan would have surrendered to the USSR after the third or fourth nuke, therefore granting no alibi to further US bombings)
>>10518978I thought they were unimportant in the war? Why can't counterfactualists keep their falsehoods straight?
>>10519137That makes zero sense. The Chinese themselves are product of invading hordes. What pure race is there
>>10516618Because atomic bombs are terrifying.
>>10519479Nope. Direct result of the threat of more bombs after 2. Read actual history>>10519661
>>10521364Please, as if you or anyone else would enjoy living in 30s japan. A few boomers aren't smart enough to understand the benefits of nationbuilding but most Americans are quite happy with Japan's recovery since they are a valued ally (and needed bulwark in Asia) and testament to the value of democracy and capitalism. We told them to surrender and they didn't. Why should we die in droves exterminating a nation when we could take out two cities (it's sad it happened but it was us or someone else since everyone was trying to make the damn things) and end it. Nukes were going to be a thing and if we didn't make them the Russians would have and you'd be stuck in that shitshow that was the USSR since neither we nor anyone else could stop them if they had nukes and we didn't. Who are you to dictate if we should die en masse out of some antiquated concept of fairness or pity. War is a dirty thing. WWII was especially dirty on all sides. We weren't wrong to do this though and they would have done it to us in a heartbeat.
>>10519661Yikes. Cringe. Why are you on a history board?
>>10520355So what is your point relevant to the OP? You are saying the bombs were necessary
>>10521199There is no such thing as a civilian in total war. That's what total war means
>>10521386>who said we needed your help?you guys did. We didn't want to get involved but England begged us to join and as usual we get stuck in other people's wars. The cold war was bigger than you anyway since it was between us and our capitalist system which is a cornerstone of what we stand for and communism which is an anathema to everything we believe in. At least we didn't mass rape the Japanese like the Russians did the the Germans and would have to them. Hell the Russians were getting ready to invade and probably eradicate the Japanese. We didn't even take their autonomy.
>>10521219It already blows out Italy's ass on a daily basis. Europe is becoming owned property of China. How soon before they ask for the boys to come and save them a third time?
>>10516459But then what would they teach them in Jap math class?
>>10516459If I see red and black in someone's pfp I immediately filter out there opinion
>>10521284>well the other people were not convinced So you basically put an opinion of a man as your proof? We already know from contemperaneous sources that those in charge did deem it necessary. So...
>>10521364He was not considering unconditional surrender. How many times will you misrepresent the key facts because muh America?
The american insects have been brainwashed for decades with the utilitarian lie. The truth is there was never any reason to target civilians. The nuclear bombs could be targeting anything from military bases to the emperor's palace itself. Because the american insects do not value human lives.
>>10521386It didn't need to go thru. The threat resulted in immediate unconditional surrender. It's great when a plan works perfectly.
>>10521468There were no civilians though.
>>10521468Are you one of those faggots who whines about Dresden as well?
>>10519479Soviet Union had no marine craft ready for a naval invasion on such short notice>>10521410>testament to the value of democracy and capitalism.While the US did indeed operate a "change of era" in Japan, it certainly did not engineer the rise of Japanese capitalism or democracy. Japan already had parliamentary democracy in the 1920s and capitalism as well. The US only lifted the military rule that previously prevented those two strands from assuming power.>as if you or anyone else would enjoy living in 30s japan.Majority of Japanese saw no harm in living there.In fact, Japan was much, much less of a totalitarian dictatorship than the USSR or Germany at the time. read up on Japanese history.>We told them to surrender and they didn't.One side can't dictate the terms of an entire war. Why would America be considered the voice of reason when it's an actual co-belligerent?>Why should we die in droves exterminating a nationThat's war, maybe you should have pondered that before the Hull Note>ukes were going to be a thing and if we didn't make them the Russians would have and you'd be stuck in that shitshow that was the USSR since neither we nor anyone else could stop them if they had nukes and we didn'tNukes were going to be a thing yeah, but it wasn't necessary to use them.>>10521423They weren't necessary to bring about peace, read the post again.>>10521433>you guys did. Nah, my great-grandfather was a communist partistan and nobody here asked for your help. I'm not even a commie but hey I'd take my fellow Euros over Americans, no matter red or blue. >Hell the Russians were getting ready to invade and probably eradicate the Japanese.Stalin gave no fucks about the Far East.
>>10521464>He was not considering unconditional surrender.He wasn't indeed. America should have settled with conditional surrender, with much reduced terms (maybe just allowing Japan to keep Taiwan) and let history run its course (military rule would have been too weak to last, USSR would have invaded Korea anyway)>>10521527>>Why should we die in droves exterminating a nation>That's war, maybe you should have pondered that before the Hull Note>>10521410Before you apply my judgement to Hiroshima & Nagasaki keep in mind war with soldiers & civilians is different.
>>10521527Lol your actually going on about this. Okey so assuming you came from western europe your government DID call us in. We owe nothing to an enemy and it's America's choice and no one else's how we do war if you don't like it try and stop us. You admit we helped them by lifting the stranglehold the military had on them and one of my friends whose Japanese American's grandfather actually was a pilot for imperial japan and he deserted because he told them he didn't want to blow himself up and they threatened to kill him. He ended up hiding out and left for America after the war (and then knocking up a black woman in New York). We dictate terms as every besieging army dictates terms. The Turks didn't care how if Constantine wanted unconditional surrender they just took what they wanted. We actually show a good deal of restraint. Many in this country were calling for extermination, colonization, and americanization of Japan in the same way we expanded west. That would have been evil. Our leaders believe it or not respected them and realized that if we did such a thing they'd never stop attacking us. Thus we made them completely surrender, destroyed the emperor cult, and helped them rebuild. We don't even stop them from military buildup anymore and are helping them fight like us. We actually trust them at this point and are both arming them and teaching them how to fight with and like us and preparing to (in all likelihood) send them back into china with our blessing this time. We aren't heroes but we did the restrained thing there.
>>10521527You think Soviet occupation of Japan would have led to peace? Hmmm
>>10521589>your government DID call us inI'm originally French, it did not. In fact we would have better wanted to join the non-aligned movement.>Many in this country were calling for extermination, colonization, and americanization of Japan in the same way we expanded west. This never happened. At best some Morgenthau Plan bullshit, far from what you describe, which is an inaccurate and impossible mess.>We don't even stop them from military buildup anymore and are helping them fight like us. We actually trust them at this point and are both arming them and teaching them how to fightNo shit lol. America tried to have japan rearmed as soon as 1954. Look up "Yoshida coup". As for today, yes it would make no sense trying to restrain the third biggest world economy from rearming because you won a war 70 years ago, not to mention your debt belongs to japan as well.>We owe nothing to an enemy and it's America's choice and no one else's how we do war if you don't like it try and stop us.You owe to them the basic respect of the rules of war. Japan never bombed any American city, did they? >We dictate terms as every besieging army dictates terms. The Turks didn't care how if Constantine wanted unconditional surrender they just took what they wanted.The Turks didn't care about Constantinople, so you're using some middle-aged steppe barbarians as your excuse for live-incinerating thousands of women and children in an age of intellectual and moral enlightement which would logically have dictated you not to do it? If you were so much more civilized than the evil japs then why step down to their supposed level of atrocities?
>>10521604Soviet Union didn't have the means to actually invade Japan in summer of '45 (not enough landing crafts in the Pacific, absolutely essential for invasion). So realistically, Stalin knowing would have entered a competition of time with the US to see who gets Japan to surrender first. Under those terms I can only imagine the USSR not getting Japan to total unconditional surrender but perhaps having them under a mixed regime.In any case Soviet invasion of Japan was infeasible.
>>10521660>Intellectual EnlightenmentSorry pal but Europes utopian dreams were just that a dream. Colonization raped the world and you are a disgrace to those lofty ideals of reason and sophistication when rape slavery and genocide are all that remains. Pragmatism, individualism, capitalism, and nationalism are what we believe in. You guys didn't show much honor or civility to the Agooji kingdom when you broke a peace treaty and wiped them out anyway. Unlike you we actually fought Japan and they got what they gave. Ever heard of the Bataan Death March? We stopped caring about rules of war when they showed absolutely no respect for them (different culture but they didn't consider ours either). If you guys are so humanitarian why did it take being crippled in this very war for you to finally let go of your colonies? Why did you force the Germans into the treaty of versailles which was very dishonorable and only made them hate you? We had to step in (again) in Vietnam and that shitshow on your behalf. Do you honestly think Japan wouldn't have nuked us if they could? Total war has it's own momentum and this was the result. We never used it again and hopefully no one ever will again but it was the rational choice. Don't act like your people would have done any different.
>>10516459it's always trannies that say stupid shit like this. no point in arguing with trannies as they view everything through an emotional lens
I would love for some tranny to try and explain to me how an amphibious invasion by the us and soviet union would lead to less casualties than dropping the two bombs, I'd love to at least hear the reasoning behind this, more japanese would have died this way too
>>10521814well you see, fire bombing and gunning down people isn't as bad as nuking someone because nukes are made from the scary uranium
>>10516708>Soviet declaration of war a factor?Troll much? Just a stupid fucker? How ‘bout both.
>>10516466>implying that America cares about morality when they routinely do horrific shit like the Japs>implying that America dropped the bombs for moral reasons when they immediately befriended Hirohito, an objective monster who caused the war crimes the picture mentions, after he surrendered>implying that the children who got vaporized or died of cancer had anything to do with the war crimesRetards need to stop acting like countries do anything for moral reasons. Yeah, sure, America stopped the rape-houses and whatever, but they also experimented on their own citizens and started a genocide in Guatemala. If we're trying to find some objective moral stance to take here, I would say that America is immoral, if for no other reason that they didn't take out Hirohito despite him being as bad as Hitler to the average citizen.
>>10521386>Would much rather be under Moscow than WashingtonHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>10516459It depends on your views and whether you believe that the Soviet Union was about five seconds from invading through Hokkaido as some have claimed.It should be noted that the casualty estimates for the planned invasion of the home islands (done by people who were completely unaware of the Manhattan Project) were so high that the Purple Hearts made for that mission are still being given out. When you account for the already brutal nature of the island campaigns, of the stories of mothers hurling themselves and their children off of cliffs in Okinawa in fear of American atrocities, of the Japanese government telling people that they were going to have to defend Japan literally until the last man, it's likely that if the invasion of the home islands had been carried out, there wouldn't have been a Japanese society left behind.Also, while the atomic bombings were indeed horrific, I believe that the Tokyo firebombings did more damage and killed more people overall.
>>10516854Truman was one of the most based presidents we ever had
>>10516459Nuclear bombs aren't immoral, but ICBMs are. When people talk about how atomic weapons are evil, 90% of the time they're actually talking about the devices that allow warheads to be blasted halfway across the globe to vaporize enemy civilians.The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are only significant compared to things like the firebombing of Tokyo because they laid the foundation for ICBM warfare. The US may have created the atomic bomb, but the USSR did everything it could to accelerate the missile race, resulting in the most immoral form of push-button warfare ever invented. The irony is that people like the account in the OP will simultaneously blame the US for creating modern nuclear warfare while also praising Yuri Gagarin, and not even realize the contradiction.
>>10521270Ironic, since the actual people that ruined your country definitely think they're special. They think they're God's chosen people in fact.
>>10516459>unprecedented act of violenceDo twitter libs (no, they are not communists) really believe that up until the bombing of Hiroshima no bombing campaign had matched it in loss of life or destruction? Dresden was arguably worse than Hiroshima and that wasn't even the worst firebombing of WW2.
>>10519661>Doesn't even know about the sea mine campaign The Japanese were starving by the time the bombs were dropped, arguably a much more painful death than instant vaporization. Anyways sociology majors who post clickbait on youtube are rarely a reliable source.
>>10516459Fuck you, American Posadism is an awesome potential ideology, you are a succdemm not a tankie.
>>10516618Because they're arguing in bad faith. Also these people aren't communists, they're pseudo-socialist neoliberals with an ala-carte understanding of Marxism.
>>10516459Bombing them instead of massacring hundreds of thousands of jap civs was an undeserved act of mercy
>>10516459She blocked me because I called her a fucking moron for denying the holodomor. I'm a leftist and I think she is a brain dead moron
>>10521993At least then Euro countries would stay white, and not mongrelized golems like the American people.
>>10521402Atom bomb>You are instantly flash boiled away before a signal from your nerves can even alert you that anything's wrongFire bomb>You are agonizingly burned away layer by layer for minutes
>>10516466God this picture is the perfect recap of Ameritard understand of historyThis guy saw pictures like this >>10518561 provide actual sustance and historical context to this situation, and they got mad and make a post talking about how THE GOOK DESERVED IT FOR HURTIN ARE GOOD WHITE MEN like a true god fearing sister fucking American boy Please, pick up a fucking book you mongoloid, read some actual history. Imagine being somehow more of an obnoxious faggot than the guy who posted a fucking Shaun and Jen video in a /his/ thread
Japan was spending an upwards of half of its national budget on the army/navy in the 30s. Losing the war was the best thing ever for them economically.
>>10520120>>10520715>>10520989This isn't how a fucking surrender works. You still need to negotiate peace even if you literally glass a country into oblivion, this is literally basic diplomacy Do you think that the orientals just say their populations drop 200k in days and decided to pull out with no communication whatsoever
>>10519906>You can't say they would absolutely not accept unconditional surrender because the US didn't actually try to negotiate anything,https://web.archive.org/web/20110208224832/http://nuclearfiles.org/menu/library/correspondence/togo-sato/corr_togo-sato.htmThe Japanese Minister of Foreign Affairs (Togo) to theJapanese Ambassador in the Soviet Union (Sato)July 21>1. We cannot accept unconditional surrender (understood fully your telegram No. 1416) in any situation. Although it is apparent that there will be more casualties on both sides in case the war is prolonged, we will stand united as one nation against the enemy if the enemy forcibly demands our unconditional surrender
>>10522649The issue with unconditional surrender is that it's incredibly vague. Japan's concerns were absolutely valid, considering the country demanding unconditional surrender was the country whose theatre commanders were literally claiming that they wouldn't stop until the Japanese language was only spoken in hell and other bombastic shit. The Japanese likely would have fought to the death if it was going to mean genocide, forced sterilization, etc, and that's what the propaganda machine had been feeding them, using a stream of fresh unedited quotes from high level US officers and macabre photos published in Time magazine.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/05/30/the-bomb-didnt-beat-japan-stalin-did/ This article makes a pretty strong argument for Hiroshima being relatively unimportant, the Soviet invasion being the real trigger for surrender, and both countries benefitting from exaggerating Hiroshima's importance afterwards. I think the Americans, and Truman in particular, may have believed the bombs were necessary, but the evidence points to them being wrong about that. I'll summarize the key points. >Argument for Hiroshima's Unimportance Hiroshina was bombed on the 6th of August. Hiroshima was the 67th Japanese city bombed in a span of a few months, and the 24th one in just three weeks. It was only the second deadliest bombing and ranked anywhere between 4th and 14th in other metrics like percentage of property destroyed. The Japanese high command was aware of the extent of the damage and the fact that the bomb was nuclear within hours, yet it until the 8th of August for anyone to even suggest a meeting to discuss the bombing and the idea was shot down. In fact the Japanese commanders seemed relatively unphased by the bombings of cities in general, and by the time Hiroshima was hit there was hardly anything left to bomb. >Cont.
>>10522691Pt. 2>Argument for Soviet Invasion's Importance The Japanese knew they would have to surrender by the summer of 1945. They were only concerned with how to negotiate a conditional surrender rather an unconditional one. They had two plans. One. Convince Joseph Stalin to act as a mediator with the Allies to get them more favorable terms. In exchange Stalin would get to expand Soviet influence in Asia. Or two. Cause such great American casualties during their land invasion that they were convinced to halt their attack and agree to conditions. The Japanese were well aware that both plans hinged on the Soviets staying neutral and this fact was stressed during meetings. "It is imperative that we maintain peace with the Soviet Union". Just after midnight on August 9th, the Soviets began invading Japan. First thing in the morning, Japanese high command convened for their first ever meeting to discuss unconditional surrender. Nagasaki was not bombed until after noon, by which point the meeting was well under way. >Argument for USA and Japan Elevating Hiroshima's Importance The Japanese leaders saw losing to the unforeseeable technical marvel of the bomb as an easy scapegoat to blame for their loss, drawing attention away from all the mistakes made along the way, and saving face for the Emperor. They also saw it as a narrative that would allow them to gain sympathy internationally as victims of an unprecedented horror. They hoped it could absolve them of some of the heat for their horrendous conduct during the war. The Americans saw the need to justify the bombings as utilitarian. Not only because of the moral issues but also to justify the massive costs and research time spent on developing it. The narrative also helped them by creating a myth surrounding the weapon that would intimidate other nations and make them think twice before starting a war.
>>10522691>>10522695>TL;DRThe nuclear bomb eventually became a true world ending threat, but in summer of 1945 it was hardly more damaging than a thorough strategic bombing, and much more costly and difficult to produce. It hardly registered on the already heavily bombed Japs radar, whereas the Soviet invasion destroyed their hopes of negotiating a conditional surrender and forced them to act immediately. Both nations benefitted from the myth of the weapons humongous importance.
>>10519661Well researched and highly detailed. Actually changed my mind about the morality of dropping the bombs - for the longest time I thought they were justified. Shame no-one will care to watch it on this board because mUH cOmMunists
>>10522509the bombs didn't significantly factor into the japanese decision to surrender - fundamentally the emperor and high ranking generals didnt give a shit if the citizens died en mass. Did you even watch the video?
>>10522677>One of the conditions for peace that will require reservation and emphasis on our part is the matter of protecting our national polity. This will have to be for us an absolute requirementI mean you have Togo's and the ambassadors thoughts right in front of you, and you somehow you get the idea from the text that they think the US is going to genocide them if they surrender? Don't be stupid. The preservation of Japan's wartime gains and of its existing government is what mattered
>>10522691>>10522695>>10522702This is nothing but vatnik propaganda to promote the idea the Soviets won WW2 singlehandedly.
>>10522610>sister fucking American boyReminder that the nips have a higher rate of incest than the USA
>>10522830being second place in inbreeding isnt a bragging point
>>10522842It's not really 2nd place.
>>10522827Care to provide an actual argument? The fact that Hiroshima provoked little response but the Japanese leaders hurried to discuss surrender within hours of the Soviet invasion seems pretty compelling to me. It's not even an argument alleging that the Soviets "single handedly won", just that the Soviet invasion was the last straw that forced Japan to abandon its attempts at negotiating surrender conditions, and that the importance of Hiroshima is overblown.
>>10522704He never truly discusses the morality of the decision though, only the efficacy. He just has an offhand comment about the fact that he finds it "concerning" that you can find civilians culpable for the actions of its government during a war.I completely disagree, morally I think they were not innocents, and I have some reasoning behind that. I personally have a democratic society, the elected government is ostensibly an extension of my will, its actions are my responsibility. If my government puts me in a situation where I as a civilian get bombed, then it is to some degree my fault because it is the electoral system I am part of that put that government in charge in the first place. If I get bombed, on some level I deserve it. How does this extend to Japan? That has a bit of a roundabout answer but bear with me here. The Japanese government and military had near-universal support from the populace for the entirety of the war. Japan was a democracy but only on paper, in reality the government didn't hold any actual power and the military just did whatever it wanted because they only had to answer to the emperor (and because he wasn't saying anything, they could claim themselves as being the sole interpreters of his will). Thus the people had no moral or ethical obligations to what their military did. If you support a military that commits atrocities when you have no responsibility towards putting them in power, you deserve to get bombed even more than I do because you have the choice to not side with the people who get you bombed and you do it anyway.
>>10522783>I mean you have Togo's and the ambassadors thoughts right in front of you, and you somehow you get the idea from the text that they think the US is going to genocide them if they surrender?No, I was using that as an extreme example of why demanding unconditional surrender was stupid and counterproductive. That being said, I would not be surprised in the slightest if a significant portion of the Japanese civilians believed as such, given the state of wartime reporting from 1937 on in Japan.>The preservation of Japan's wartime gains and of its existing government is what matteredI'm scanning this shit only because I'm about to sleep and will read through the full thing in the morning, but all I see in the telegram you quoted and the referenced telegrams in that message is the preservation of their government, IE the emperor. I'm not seeing anything about keeping war gains, and the only part even concerning them that I found while scanning was saying that it would be impossible to keep those gains when the Allied forces already control them all plus Okinawa, and Japan has no way to strike back at them.
>>10522722Different anon, im not watching a 2 hour youtube video for a single point. Does he argue that Japans leaders didnt care about their capacity to physically continue the war? That is the what civilians deaths mean afterall
>>10522921I didn't say that, idiot. Read the post again.
>>10522891>the military just did whatever it wanted because they only had to answer to the emperor (and because he wasn't saying anything, they could claim themselves as being the sole interpreters of his will)Did you just gloss over this part of your own post? If the military is carrying out the emperor's will, as far as the civvies know, then who are they to question it? And that's besides the point that civil disobedience became more and more common the worse the situation got in Japan. They were definitely nearing the breaking point.
>>10522880Not him, but as for me I don't even care if it was important. People keep using the argument that "UM AKYULY IT WUZ DA RUSHINZ" to try to discredit any justification for dropping the nukes, when in actual fact the justification for dropping the nukes was basically identical to the justification for carpet bombing cities. Anyone who clutches pearls about muh nukes but doesn't care about the carpet bombing is a hypocrite, and anyone that complains about the carpet bombing fails is sitting in a 21st century ivory tower where we have the luxury of laser guided bombs, whereas in WW2 you basically had to level an entire city just to have a chance of destroying the actual target you were trying to hit.
>>10522924Seethe harder, Ivan
>>10522925>Did you just gloss over this part of your own post?I didn't gloss over it, it only reinforces my point that it wasn't in any way the average citizen's responsibility. The military was acting on its own without the consent of the people.>civil disobedience became more and more common the worse the situation got in JapanBy primarily leftists who the government jailed and killed for fear of them bringing about communism.
>>10522880>https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-book/nuclear-vault/2020-08-04/atomic-bomb-end-world-war-ii#_tc10Document 67a indicates that there were consultations and meetings after the first bombing, and in fact the full cabinet meeting was planned the night prior, in part due to the first bombing, before the soviet invasion on the 9th happened
>>10522932Cry about Americans elsewhere.
>>10522944>buzzwordsFeels good to be an American and make people like (You) mad.
>>10522957>uses "seethe">gets mad at "cope" cause it's a "buzzword"Dilate.
>>10522933My bad, I misread and had your points on democracies vs non-democracies backwards>By primarily leftists who the government jailed and killed for fear of them bringing about communism.Far more widespread than that. For example, the mandatory neighborhood association meetings were getting essentially ignored by the common citizen. Presence was required by law. Also factories saw higher and higher absenteeism. There's more, but I'd need to go back through Ian Toll's chapter for it.
>>10522933Also I should note that Japan doesn't have a word for civil disobedience. To this day there isn't really a concept in Japan, and the term when translated into Japanese of thought of being like an anarchist. There was pacifist resistance movements but well, you can guess how well that went under a military dictatorship.>>10522971And yet the polls show the Japanese citizenry were massively in favor of the war itself. Now granted part of this was because no one told them how bad it was going (Japan famously didn't know it lost the Battle of Midway until postwar), but even as the IJA raped and pillaged its way through China and SEA the people were just behind them the whole way.
>>10522970I don't post one word replies
>>10522976>but even as the IJA raped and pillaged its way through China and SEA the people were just behind them the whole way.Not him and I don't want to be that guy, but what the fuck are you supposed to do in that situation? Your army is curbstomping everyone in comes in contact with, you keep getting even more land and resources and your boys come back home with barely a scratch. What do you expect the people to do, denounce them?
>>10522979It needs to be a one word reply to be a buzzword?
>>10522994If you use /v/eddit tier words yes
>>10523020>noooo you can't use buzzwords>unless they're my epic L33t buzzwords :)
>>10516618Because commies are literally NPCs. They only think what they are told to thinkIt's not even hidden now. The enemy is here
>>10522936Thanks. This is an interesting source. I'll definitely read through some of this.
>>10516708>Was the Soviet declaration of war a factor? YesYeah bro the Japanese were shaking in their boots at the prospect of a landing transported by the mighty Soviet Pacific Fleet... how fucking retarded do you have to be to think that the Soviet declaration of war was a real threat to Japan?
>>10521402More terrifying maybe, but morally no worse than a mass firebombing, which had already been done to several Japanese cities. The scale of the death wasn't new, what was new was the ability to achieve it with a single bomb from a single plane.
>>10519906The "surrender" they wanted was to hold onto their colonies, their army and face no trials.
>>10516571There wasn't going to be an operation downfall by the time they dropped the bombs. They knew the Japanese were looking for a way to surrender, and they wanted to force that surrender early and on favorable terms to the USA, before Stalin could invade Manchuria. It didn't work, the first bomb was dropped and the Japanese still bickered over surrender terms until Russia invaded Manchuria, at which time Japan knew it had no leverage left, and negotiated. It wasn't vital to success, because it didn't work. It failed to secure the Japanese unconditional surrender the US was hoping for, and the US had to accept a surrender with Japan able to keep the Emperor. It was a pointless loss of life resulting from a geopolitical game the US was playing with the USSR.
>>10516466Every day I wake up and look in the mirror, I thank God I'm not an American.
>>10522976As you said yourself, they were behind the war effort early on when it was an uncontested string of victories as far as they were aware. I'm talking civilian outlook from 1944 onward. By that point, countless islands had been publicly reported as fighting valiantly to the last man, and anybody with a map could see the progression towards the Japanese home islands. The military reporting claimed these battles to be part of some overarching plan to lure the US in close for a final decisive battle, but the decisive battle never showed up the papers and instead garrison after garrison was reported as gyokusai, lit. shattered jewels, but euphism for honorable suicide. That coupled with the situation on the home front, where rationing had tightened considerably from 1939 to the point that women had to spend most of their time searching the countryside for food to feed their families, caused people to get desperate. Petty crime, muggings and theft, exploded in the late war years when such a thing had been virtually unheard of in Japan prior to that. There may not be a word in Japanese for civil disobedience, but the complete disregard the common person showed for military authority in the late war years, absenteeism in the workplace, and the explosion of petty crime clearly show that they were disillusioned with the military.
>>10518561>Japan is gonna surrender on their own any moment now!>*loses Iwo Jima, major cities being firebombed regularly*>any moment now!>*nuked*>any moment now!>*nuked again*It's pure wishful thinking from people who didn't understand the political situation in Japan. It wouldn't matter even if you could convince the average Japanese that the Emperor would be spared. Do any of these figures have PROOF that the Japanese were surrendering? They do not, because they weren't, and the "conditions" they would have asked for in order to surrender would have meant keeping the political order that caused the war in the first place intact.
>>10521219China will rape the Japanese for a thousand years as revenge for Nanking.
>>10521284His point is that if they had gone all out on the conventional bombing, the Japanese would have been forced to surrender. Which is a valid argument, but not morally any better than nuking them, because it would still involve killing massive numbers of japanese civilians with bombs.
Ofc it was unecessary and ethically horrible. I'm wondering why the people who decided the attack never got sentenced for crimes against humanity like the nazis in Nuremberg.
>>10521709>Colonization raped the world and you are a disgrace to those lofty ideals of reason and sophistication when rape slavery and genocide are all that remains.Me? What did I do? No, when I talk of intellectual enlightenment I talk about the basic principles of war which were well known by the mid-20th century, which is that you don't target innocent civilian populations. Especially when you outnumber your enemy 20 to 1 and he's on the verge of surrendering.>You guys didn't show much honor or civility to the Agooji kingdom when you broke a peace treaty and wiped them out anyway. Unlike you we actually fought Japan and they got what they gave. Ever heard of the Bataan Death March? We stopped caring about rules of war when they showed absolutely no respect for them (different culture but they didn't consider ours either).>If you guys are so humanitarian why did it take being crippled in this very war for you to finally let go of your colonies? Why did you force the Germans into the treaty of versailles which was very dishonorable and only made them hate you? We had to step in (again) in Vietnam and that shitshow on your behalf. Do you honestly think Japan wouldn't have nuked us if they could? Total war has it's own momentum and this was the result. We never used it again and hopefully no one ever will again but it was the rational choice. Don't act like your people would have done any different.Irrelevant whataboutism, go read a book instead of arguing with me.>>10521993Very little knowledge of history is displayed here, what are you doing on this board?>>10524575>gyokusaiIts a concept to basically say they died in suicide-combat (banzai charges). >Petty crime, muggings and theft, exploded in the late war years when such a thing had been virtually unheard of in Japan prior to that.Only happened after the surrender, and the word for it was kyodatsu condition.>>10524580Doubt the military gov would have remained at this point
>>10524828>Its a concept to basically say they died in suicide-combat (banzai charges).Not necessarily banzai charges. The Japanese press used it to refer to all of their conquered garrisons, regardless of whether banzai charges were employed by the defenders.>Only happened after the surrender, and the word for it was kyodatsu condition.It was definitely prevalent prior to surrender, and as early as 1944. Ian Toll devotes an entire chapter to it in his survey of the war, along with multiple other chapters to the opinion of Japanese civilians at various points in the conflict.
it was justified, no more threads please
>>10518103>attack military site>this somehow justifies mass murder on civiliansMutts, everyone.
>>10525331>civilians>total warPick one
>>10524947What I'm saying is gyokusai is a very vague term that may have been used as propaganda. It means shattered jewel and could be even construed as heroic death, not necessary ritual mass suicides.>as early as 1944I can only interpret that as a rise in petty crime in response to shortages, since this is the first time I am told this happened. What I read so far was that the japanese always had a very high level of support for the war, and for both cultural and state reasons, kept in line and didn't think of civil disobedience. Maybe you're mistaking this rise in petty crime as an intentional anti-government action, as opposed to simply a struggle for survival (black markets during wartime are far from being something with a political purpose). Which book are you referencing?
>>10516459yes they wanted to bomb Germany but the war ended quick enough in the west. Then the only purpose was to get Japan out of the war before the Soviets could take hokaido
ill give a shit about japan when germany gets the same sob story for the dresden bombings and the rape of berlin, but these lefties will celebrate such things as nazis getting payback. even some of you queers on here celebrate such things because the thought of your own women and children being raped and immolated turns you on due to years of cuckold porn
>>10525711No, I actually also call the mass bombings of Germany, France and the rape of Berlin some of the most underrated human rights violations of WW2 that have yet to see their authors go to trial. The retarded tankie in OP doesn't speak for all of us
What kind of retard would you be if you were discussing the "necessity" and "morality" of war?
>>10522581Yeah man everyone died instantly and painlessly there absolutely weren't thousands suffering at all.
>spared Japan from the starvation and retardation that is Communism>pumped them full of liquidity in order to rebuild their trash economy>didn't even subject them to social neutering ala Denazification>grew so fast they almost became an economic superpower before Reagan fucked everything upAnd yet, they have the gall to whine about 2 tiny nukes.
>>10524432Because the Americans had destroyed their navy, so even the pathetic Soviet one was a threat now.
>>10526038>At its peak, the U.S. Navy was operating 6,768 ships on V-J Day in August 1945, including 28 aircraft carriers, 23 battleships, 71 escort carriers, 72 cruisers, over 232 submarines, 377 destroyers, and thousands of amphibious, supply and auxiliary ships.lmao.
>>10525295t. the victors
>>10526043I can't tell if you're intentionally misreading what I wrote or your reading comprehension skills are that fucking bad.By "their navy" I obviously meant the Japanese you fucking retard.
>>10526128Ah. Work on your pronouns then, friend.
>>10516459>communist flagclosed the image there
>>10521341> "I now realize that we have unknowingly wrought a most grievous effect on this city. When I think of the feelings and sentiments of many of my Chinese friends who have fled from Nanjing and of the future of the two countries, I cannot but feel depressed. I am very lonely and can never get in a mood to rejoice about this victory.… I personally feel sorry for the tragedies to the people, but the Army must continue unless China repents. Now, in the winter, the season gives time to reflect. I offer my sympathy, with deep emotion, to a million innocent people."t. Iwane Matsui
>>10527212Great proof of a massacre there friend.No order, no plans, nothing except some vague musings.Stop being dishonest.
>>10527631If war massacres accounts had to have the individual names of each and every dead victim, then the destruction of Carthage, the Albigensian Crusade and the Mongol invasions never fucking happened. Which is run of the mill for Axis negationist shits.Red Army and Americans didn't kill enough.
>>10527652This. As another example of the Japanese military's WWII barbarity, see the sack of Manila in 1945. Iwabuchi disobeyed direct orders from Yamashita to withdraw from the city, and had his troops systematically raze Manila while rounding up and civilians to be raped and murdered.
>>10524575What exactly is the argument here? That you can just change your mind and avoid the consequences of your previous stance once you start to lose?
>>10525676Not him but I think he's talking about the book Twilight of the Gods: War in the Western Pacific, 1944-1945
"Based on a detailed investigation of all the facts and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involved, it is the Survey’s opinion that certainly prior to 31 December 1945, and in all probability prior to 1 November 1945, Japan would have surrendered even if the atomic bombs had not been dropped, even if Russia had not entered the war, and even if no invasion had been planned or contemplated."- U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey (1946)
>>10527979>and supported by the testimony of the surviving Japanese leaders involvedOh sure, they say that now after the fact
Actual serious question here, what is wrong with killing civilians if you believe it accomplishes your wartime goals? If human lives are supposed to be equal then why does it matter if they can defend themselves or not? I don't understand the idea of a sense of fairness when war itself is the willful stripping away of the veil of civilization and the conscious engaging in barbarism.
>>10516459Better they be used there and all their damage visibility seen in action, than to not understand it later and use them in haste, starting something worse.
>>10516459I'm not sure why revulsion towards nuclear weapons, rationally speaking is a thing. Nuclear weapons are primarily an anti-morale weapon - they are very cost-inefficient in terms of amounts of people killed per dollar spent on nukes, to repeat "deaths per dollar" -wise, their effect is primarily psychological.> The Hidden Costs of Our Nuclear Arsenalhttps://www.brookings.edu/the-hidden-costs-of-our-nuclear-arsenal-overview-of-project-findings/
>>10516459Imagine if he got his hands on atomic bombs
>>10527909No, the debate is whether the average Japanese citizen was still gung-ho for the war effort in 1944-45 like they were in 1937-41. I'm contending that in 1944, the common Japanese were beginning to get disillusioned with the war and were beginning to realize that the military-controlled press was lying about the state of the war.>>10527924Correct, ch.4.>>10525676>What I'm saying is gyokusai is a very vague term that may have been used as propagandaNot vague, it just has different meanings depending on the context, and in this context it was coined by the Japanese military and press as a euphemism for a glorious fight to the death by Japanese forces cut off on the various Pacific islands. It was first used in this respect to describe the garrison on Attu, and subsequently was used for literally every other conquered island on the American path to Japan.>I can only interpret that as a rise in petty crime in response to shortages, since this is the first time I am told this happened. What I read so far was that the japanese always had a very high level of support for the war, and for both cultural and state reasons, kept in line and didn't think of civil disobedience.From Twilight of the Gods ch.4, the civilian rationing situation took a very sharp downward turn in the summer of 1944. Only the privileged and wealthy were getting enough to eat, while the average person was visibly starving and having to spend upwards of 5 hours a day looking for food. Black market prices began skyrocketing, and by the end of 1944 most foodstuffs commanded 10x or more their ration price. Begging, which had been unheard of prior to the war, was common by this point. Admittedly civil disobedience was the wrong term for it, because it implies an organized effort whereas, due mostly to the Japanese police state apparatus, the Japanese people did not engage in any organized form of protest or disobedience. But individually, the enthusiasm was gone
>>10525676(cont)According to Toll, the main trigger for this turn was the fall of Saipan and the ousting of Tojo as PM.>In low voices or secret diaries, ordinary citizens were asking hard questions about the reliability of official reports. In the quest to separate fact from propaganda, they inevitably traded in rumors. The police went to great lengths to suppress rumor mongering, but their efforts were largely futile, because the public now had every reason to fear for the nation's safety and for their future. While outright defiance was rare, there were increasing signs of passive resistance to the regime. Ordinary citizens were more likely to complain about official corruption and the rapacity of the black markets. They mocked local authorities during the mandatory civil defense and air raid drills, and gave only the minimum effort required. Tardiness, absenteeism, shirking, and calling in sick were common syndromes in both the workplace and in mandatory neighborhood events. According to the Japanese industrial journal "Diamond", the daily absentee rate in munitions factories was 10% in 1943, rising to 15% in 1944. Crime, vandalism, and juvenile delinquency were on the rise. Many Japanese noted and lamented the corrosion in basic manners, kindliness, and honest dealing. Enthusiasm waned at the quasi-obligatory patriotic rallies, parades, and send-off parties for departing military recruits. A mother whose son had died in the war refused to visit Yasukuni shrine in Tokyo, where the spirits of the nation's war dead are laid to rest. "When those who have lost a precious child go to the Yasukuni shrine, they're made to squat on the white sand like beggars, and they have to bow their heads" she declared. "I will never go to that stupid place."What the Japanese said in public vs in private was very different, so naturally public polls would show support for the war, hence Toll's reliance on diaries and such for that view.
>>10521341>Rape of Nanking was made up.Germans, Americans, and even Japanese officers all attest to having witnessed it. The Nazi party even went as far as to let their state run newspapers report on it.
>>10528806Do you goyim take pride in being retard? Us Ashkenazis take pride in our studies and intellect but perhaps useless cattle such as yourself (R1b subhuman) do not.
>americans dying by the tens of thousands hopping form lightly fortified island to lightly fortified island in the pacific>mainland nippon was arming school girls with spears in attempt to die a bushido death and let young children be riddled with bullets>millions would have died if the war kept going to the mainland, mostly japanese, a lot of americans who didn't deserve to be in the hell that was the pacific theater>have an end game weaponAnybody who says it was not justified is a fucking retard and I wish I could just send them to die at iwo jima, wherein they would last all but 20 seconds before crying like a little fucking bitch and getting sniped in the face.
>>10516466>using "we" "we" "we"stop larping as brave WW2 soldiers, Americans.
>>10524550Good, we don’t need any more faggots. The ones we have already are annoying.
>>10516618Commies are hypocritical retards. There’s a reason they invented whataboutism.
>>10516466This. If Imperial Japan didn't want their country to be used as a bomb testing site, they shouldn't have started the war.
>>10528829>millions would have died if the war kept going to the mainland, mostly japanese, a lot of americans who didn't deserve to be in the hell that was the pacific theaterExcept that the problem with this is that whether the bombs were dropped or the the Americans waited it out until Russia invaded Manchuria, Japan was militarily beaten. There was to be no land invasion by the end, and there was no need for one. All their desperate arming of civilians with spears was a desperate ploy to try to secure better surrender terms, and everyone in the Japanese command knew they would have to surrender soon, the question for them was on what terms, to who, with who mediating, and when. They had already lost the war. The US primarily dropped the bombs not to avoid that land invasion, they dropped them because they had been planning to drop them on Japan for a long time, and to try to force an early surrender with less influence from the USSR. And that failed.
>>10529572Russia already got assraped by Japan. Millions of people would die in that scenario as well. So is that better?
>>10529705The Russia of the end of WWII was not the same one whupped in the Russo-Japanese war. It had been modernized first by late-Tsarist reforms, then by Leninist socialism, with a helping of American steel through lend-lease to speed it along. The Russians had their troops ready in the East and in position for the date they had planned to attack Japan at their meeting with the allies, and when it came, they bulldozed the Japanese in Manchuria, the Japanese who, again, were largely beaten already. Once Japan knew Russia would not help them, they were much more willing to a full surrender to the Americans. Would it have been better for that to have happened without hundreds of thousands of extra civilian deaths by atomic explosion? Yes.
>>10529705Russia did pretty good in the land campaigns against Japan in 1905. It took the Japs months to take Port Arthur when it couldve been bypassed instead of turning it into a meatgrinder.
>>10529572>And that failedWhat are you talking about they literally surrendered less than a week after the bombs dropped and Japan became a US puppet
>>10529891They literally kept arguing internally over how and when to surrender, and hoping that the USSR would mediate to get them better terms until the invasion of Manchuria, and Hirohito told his closest advisor Kōichi Kido to "quickly control the situation" because "the Soviet Union has declared war and today began hostilities against us." The more militant faction wanted to keep going even after the bombs, the USSR invasion turned the Emperor's opinion, and forced his intervention.
>>10529926And the US's hope was that the dropping of the bomb would cause Japan to surrender on good terms to America BEFORE Russia invaded and got a piece of the spoils. Internal documents stress this point. That failed.
>>10529815The Japanese had to take the heights surrounding Port Arthur though, and that's where all the casualties in the siege came from. If they did not, then the Russian Pacific Fleet could sit safe in port until the Baltic Fleet came to relieve them, then crush the Japanese fleet with their combined numbers. Taking the heights would allow Japanese artillery to shell the ships within Port Arthur, forcing them to try to redeploy to Vladivostok to avoid being sunk by Japanese artillery.
>>10527979thats just, like, their opinion, bro
>>10527212>I personally feel sorry for the tragedies to the people, but the Army must continue unless China repentsLiteral beast men
>>10528459>Nuclear weapons are primarily an anti-morale weaponThat's the thing: morale bombing ultimately wasn't that effective. In the grand scheme of things, even if you demoralize the enemy population, if they're being ruled by an authoritarian clique, that clique is still going to propagandize, coerce, and enforce them to continue into the meat grinder. What scares and demoralizes civilians is not always what scares and demoralizes their rulers. Japan eventually surrendered partly to protect the imperial regalia, the sword, the jewel and the mirror, that symbolize the emperor's legitimacy. Not the people's lives, the knickknacks that symbolize the ruler's power, and thus helps secure it in people's minds. So it's especially ineffective against fascism and empires.
>>10527979Curtis LeMay thought he could beat the Japanese with fire and carpet bombing and was looking for a way to increase his current problem which was that he wanted more bombers for the next war. This isn't the revelation you think it is.
>>10529572>There was to be no land invasion by the endThis is a myth that fuckwits like you and Shaun have to peddle in order for the "nukes bad" argument to go anywhere. Yes, there WAS going to be an invasion. It doesn't matter if the Navy thought they didn't need to do it, MacArthur was going to fucking do it.
>>10530716>MacArthur was going to fucking do it.When was he going to do it?
>>10516466yeah no the only people who want japan to "take responsibility" are communist subversives like the guy in OP's post. They are incredibly upset that japan hasn't burned its culture to the ground and wallowed in self-loathing like the Germans. They are incredibly angry they didn't get to mass rape japanese women like they did in germany. They are incredibly mad that japan is not yet getting BLACKED by the fake "birthrate crisis"Their intentions are more immoral and vicious by 1000 times than any bomb. They want to wholly erase Japan's identity and heritage. No crime they may have committed obligates them to take that.
>>10530716MacArthur would require an unparalleled amount of transports, assault ships, air cover, and surface warships for escort. If the navy was convinced it was a bad idea, and the army and air force representatives in the Joint Chiefs agreed, MacArthur wasn't invading anything.
>>10526038The Soviet fleet might have been a problem in a naval battle, but it was nowhere near powerful enough to mount an invasion of Japan. The Soviets lacked landing craft, and Japanese coastal defences were more than sufficient.
>>10522899i think he means it was just another city, literally other cities were dying, with more vital military resources, and the main topic debated by jap higher ups was "how do we guarantee the mutts dont kill the emperor and most of us". And thats why they gave up, when they found out the mutts werent gonna kill the higher ups.
Yes, any bombing of any city is unjustified, wars should not involve civilians, the pace of technology has made it hard to uphold such rules but that does not change the rules. Either laws should be put in place to protect civilians even in war time, or technology should progress to the point where civilians are protected from bombing, regardless the fact civilians should not get bombed is undeniable, soldiers should be the ones risking their life.
>>10516459Imagine if the Soviets dropped a nuke
>>10532016Except they already had agreed. The invasion was scheduled for the first of November.
>>10532743A lot can happen in the months running up to the operation, and it wouldn't have been the first time that an invasion had to be rescheduled or cancelled in the Pacific war. King was opposed to it, as was Nimitz. That alone could go far to getting Marshall to change his mind, and it really doesn't matter what MacArthur thinks if Marshall and King persuade Truman. I really doubt Truman would overrule both Marshall and King, and Arnold would be in King's camp anyways for his own reasons (proving strategic air power alone could force a capitulation and securing the air force its independence in the post-war).
>>10532826Ok, but we don't know that. It's like speculating "well, even if the Soviets hadn't attacked, if we nuked them 3 more times they would have surrendered anyway". Here's what we know: the invasion was scheduled. As far as we know for sure, it was going to happen.
>>10533026>As far as we know for sure, it was going to happen.We don't know that for sure. An invasion being scheduled was not a guarantee of it going forward. As I literally said in my post, scheduled operations in the Pacific had been postponed and cancelled for various reasons earlier in the war. For example, Operation Causeway (the invasion of Formosa) was planned and scheduled, then delayed indefinitely in favor of the Philippines. In this situation the sides were flipped, with King and Nimitz favoring Causeway and MacArthur favoring Musketeer (the Philippines invasion). In this situation MacArthur was correct, and his arguments for the Philippines over Formosa did persuade King and Nimitz to postpone and effectively cancel Causeway (Causeway was never officially cancelled). Olympic and Coronet were seen as incredibly costly propositions, with a guaranteed massive loss of American lives that could be avoided simply by blockading Japan instead, hence King and Nimitz's opposition to MacArthur on the landings.
>>10530271You say it's ineffective but eventually the enemy is going to run out of human capital that they can use to keep supplying the front lines.
>>10532455>the pace of technology has made it hard to uphold such rules but that does not change the rules.I disagree, the way I see it the pace of technology is what gave rise to those rules in the first place because prior to pretty much any point before around 1750ish, (almost) every army in every nation seemed to be perfectly ok with killing civilians. It's only in recent history that we decided it wasn't ok, and to that I say why the fuck not? I refer to what I said here >>10528311