>TP-Link Archer A7/C7Qualcomm, check.16/128, check802.11ac, checkLAN LEDs, checkUSB port for extroot, checkHowever, the King can not handle NAT-ing full-speed symmetric gigabit fiber. Who's the new king?Preference for under $100 and readily available in the U.S.
>>88743984This will be the new king soon.
>>88744145Looks really nice. MikroTik makes rock solid hardware. Any ETA on the release date?
>>88744145that's an access point.
>>88744330OpenWRT turns mere access points and range extenders into routers.>Verification not required.
>>88743984>sub 1GHz CPU (single core lol?)lolno
>>88743984Nigger, put that bitch into AP mode and use a pfSense router.
>>88744477Basically none of them are supported by OpenWRT. You list a ton of Broadcoms, for example.>>88744500It still can't do more than 300 mbps over wifi.
>>88743984the king is a 10$ shitbox running full openwrtpic related
>>88744547>It still can't do more than 300 mbps over wifi.>wifiPathetic
>>88744477i'm curious how that's measured
>>88744547They exist, can't be arsed to look them up. The point is archer A7 is the equivalent of a $20 wallmart smartphone in terms of how low it can keep overall wifi latency. Really shitty routers like this tend to give you picrel performance when more than 1 person is connected.GOD FORBID you're doing anything else than AP mode.
>>88744587It was probably measured over stock firmware which means>opinion discarded
>>88744587AFAIK it's legit because all the low end trash has complains of wifi latency jumping all over the place like >>88744593
>>88744593>>88744611Again, stock firmware is trash and those measurements should be discarded. My C7 with OpenWRT does not exhibit that behavior.
>>88744645Stock has the HIGHEST latency reduction because of proper hardware acceleration. Open sores firmware probably doesn't have good hardware acceleration (ie see piss poor hardware acceleration on linux distros).
>>88744719>probablyt. has never actually tried flashing OpenWRT
>>88744719hey kid...nice bait(.jpg)
>>88744749>>88744750Why do you think 99% of android phones run google's android OS? If open sores wasn't so outrageously dogshit at hardware acceleration we would see ubutu/arch lite being a serious thread to google's android OS. I'm just putting 2+2 here together.
>>88744843You have no first hand experience with OpenWRT and you try to speculate based on a completely different ecosystem. >>>/g/sqt/
>>88743984What, can't afford an Asus router powerful enough to be it's own functional modern computer?
>>88744843i actually can't wait to read your next post. keep going.
>>88744864>>88744904Open sores isn't very good with hardware acceleration. Wifi routers don't have the best CPUs, you can literally find ARM's ~2010's IP being used in these things. Hell even the $300+ gay men wifi routers have A53s in the spec sheet. I'm not joking, look it up.
>>88744864SOME openwrt have hardware access and some do not, some dont even reach the dev time to do it. Some openwrt are not much more than stock firmware with bells and whistles.Some openwrt break not-so-trivial things like the 2.4Ghz modem, and I've seen that first hand.
>>88743984>under $100>can handle NAT-ing full-speed gigabit It doesn't existhttps://forum.openwrt.org/t/so-you-have-500mbps-1gbps-fiber-and-need-a-router-read-this-first/90305
>>88744547>300mbps>WiFiNigger get a cable, WiFi is meant for mobile devices, not for real work.
>>88745004https://forum.openwrt.org/t/ipq806x-nss-build-netgear-r7800-tp-link-c2600-linksys-ea8500/82525My Netgear R7800 can do it no problem.
>>887450072x2 mimo (very common) 5GHz on 160MHz channel mode can get pretty close to 1Gbps with LoS. Obviously you're not going to get that 3 rooms down the hall but being able to move your laptop/phone around in the same room while things transfer without worrying about cables is pretty fucking convenient.
>>88745046This. Of course stationary devices like desktops and TVs should be wired to save limited spectrum but there is no reason to not want a MU-MIMO in your OpenWRT router.
>>88743984>NAT-ingWhat do you mean by that?Guess we're gonna need "gaymer" routers too now.
>>88744145Why would you install openWRT when this already comes with RouterOS and does more.
>>88746093My thoughts exactly, I suppose some of these people don't realize that they don't belong in here.
shut up, just shut the fuck up
>>88746093>>88746116Because you can't easily hack RouterOS as it does expose native Linux interfaces not MikroTik shims. My OpenWRT router is also my Windows KM server - it's easy to do there; how easy it is on RouterOS? How many years did you have to wait for WireGuard (never mind that, OpenVPN UDP)?It's simply a different experience.
>>88746177>My OpenWRT router is also my Windows KM server>not activating once with HWIDRouterOS might be a little to much for someone like you.
>>88746208You can't activate server SKUs with HWID, retard.
>>88743984it has a slow cpu and thus slow speed.
>>88746906Yeah. What's better? There are good GL-iNET routers but they are not easily available here
>>88746093maybe i dont want to be in the worlds largest botnet?
>>88747227What's the alternative? Broadcom with closed drivers? MediaTek's mediashit?
>>88743984what the fuck do I get for openwrt if I just want a good wifi chip and could give less of a shit about the CPU? one of those new $100 AX routers?
>Blob free bootloader and firmware>Immune to speculative execution attacks (Meltdown & Spectre)>2x2.5Gbe ports 1x1Gbe wan port>4GBs RAM, USB-C PD, m.2 NVMe, 2x USB-A, hdmiStep aside /g/entsThe pure software freedom option has arrived
>>88747907i tried mt76 and it still is not as good as ath10kFor $100 I would get a used R7800
>>88749286Can it run pfsense/opnsense? No? Irrelevant trash.
>>88744572which shitbox? I need a new router for openwrt
>>88750651bumping, I need something tooalso, is there one that supports fiber input directly like the one from my isp?I'm a little retarded so tell me if I'm asking for something dumb
>>88744288In November probably.>>88744330Incorrect. It can be an access point as well. But if you want it can be a CPE, PTP Bridge or even a Home Mesh.Even their "access points" like cAP ac can be used as a router.>>88746093Exactly. You won't because there's no need. Even though it is possible I was just mocking faggot OP.
All I need.
>>88749286Except the ethernet ports are chinkoid quality and tend to break from the smallest electrical interference.Use at your own risk.
>>88749286>no wifiInb4 some inane argument on how you don't need Wifi.
>>88754273wifi is great.
>>88751511>I was just pretending to be retarded
>>88743984>buying an off the shelf consumer routerishiggydiggy.Buy an old workstation and an Intel nic, do it yourself.
>>88746177>My OpenWRT router is also my Windows KM serverhow to?
What are the good chip manufacturers nowadays? I'm so out of date with this networking shit and I just have a plain ass WRT1200AC but I've been told Marvell is shit or whatever.
>>88754273when you buy something like that to use as a router you probably also buy a separate switch and access points
>>88757665are there any [dis]advantages of using this and not kms_vl_all, other than>this does not require installation on client>this obviously only works when you are connected to network where the service is ran
ive switched to a PC with opnsense from a router with ddwrt and the response times and performance is huge. my router will just do AP duty from now on. my electricity cost are low so idk.
>>88759269Welcome to the promised land, brother. It will never be as good as enterprise network applications but it beats the piss out of consumer routers
>>88759233Security: you can audit the code. kms_vl_all and similar tools have binary blobs.Also if you use KMS servers make sure to gpedit.msc and Computer Configuration -> Administrative Templates -> Windows Components -> Software Protection Platform -> Turn off KMS Client Online AVS Validation -> Enabled.
>>88759269>>88759681Which wireless devices do you use as APs for you PC routers? Will your standard Atheros PCIe card be good enough?
>>88759808>Turn off KMS Client Online AVS Validationi know that win10 has that shit, do new office also have that?
>>88759824I use my A7 in AP mode, wifi isn't a huge priority in my lan.
>>88759824i just used my old router, and configured it as an AP. the Router functioning as AP is connected via ethernet to my OPNsense router. im not using a PCIe wireless card for now. I would suggest using any of the cards that work with pfsense. https://docs.netgate.com/pfsense/en/latest/wireless/hardware.html
>>88759681thanks, i got the recommend from some of the old heads in the router general threads. Next im about to setup a these fancy dashboards.
>>88743984I didn't realize how bad my router was until I upgraded to pic in OP.
>>88744145*blocks your path*
Xiaomi Router 4A Gigabit Edition literally bang for buck>>88760876Based and with Common SenseXiaomi Router 4A Gigabit Edition running on OpenWRT + Adblocker + Wireguard VPN never better Top of the range specs and bang for the buck for just 17$
>>88761070This one costed me $70 and supports WiFi 6.
>>88761205as much as i hate Mediatek as a cpu for phones it works wonders in Network chips also its fully supported by Linux Kernel as early as 5.2 and i get blazing performance from it with no downtimes been using it for 2 and a half years now with 0 issues, for the money i gave it simply can outperform even similar specced higher priced routers soo...
>>88743984>TP-Link Archer A7/C7Gargoyle?
>>88761205MediaTek has the only full chain open source router SoC + managed switch. These companies all have different divisions making their own choices for different markets.
>>88761070Name of the luci theme?
>>88746093You need to register an account to use RouterOS.
>>88762683>It is strongly recommended to use the Chrome browser.Into the trash it goes. But thanks anyways.
>>88746093blyahh nothing more disgusting and full of bugs than MikroTik Router with RouterOS in my place they are used a lot but i dispise them for the inconvinience and shitty UI even terminal sucks on it OpenWRT makes it brand new through and gives new meaning to it so in short suck on it RouterShit OS there i said it i couldnt endure it anymore in my previous jobs
>>88762715you can use ungoogled Chromium is privacy is an issue it works wonders and ive been a die hard fan of gecko engine but after seeing blink engine in its pure form i just couldnt resist the speed and the use
>>88762751MikroTik has rock solid hardware though
>>88761070>>88761169https://openwrt.org/inbox/toh/xiaomi/xiaomi_mi_router_4a_gigabit_edition>Xiaomi is currently shipping Mi Router 4A Gigabit Edition devices without proper shielding since 2020. Be aware that those might cause problems due to radio interferance.https://openwrt.org/toh/xiaomi/ax3200Can you post some wifi performance screenshots? Does MU-MIMO actually work?>>88762639What are you talking about? To buy RouterOS for your x86 PC? Yes. To use it on your hAP AC router or whatnot? Definitely not.
>>88761169>>88761070>cheap chinkshit backdoored garbage>>88765028Oh how surprising, a cheap chinese radio built completely wrong on purpose.
>>88765697Is the conclusion really that Archer is the king after all those years?
>>88743984Isn't CFW dead thanks to FCC fuckery and lazy manufacturers locking down router firmware?Moreover, isn't 5GHz fucked on most NICs thanks to a lack of drivers?>>88744330APs and routers are arbitrary labels. If the thing has 2 NICs, you can turn it into a router.>>88744611Stock firmware is often shitt. used a wdr-4300 and the thing would crash periodically until I put openwrt on it.
>>88767160>CFW dead because FCCIf none of you maggots tried to increase the signal power of your wifi
>>88757821They only saying that because the old WRT Router is using broadcom chips.
Can't I just turn any computer into a router? Why would I buy some "premium" bullshit like this?
>>88767268Yeah you need a Network Interface Card though.
>>88767268If you want small form-factor and modest power consumption it gets very expensive very fast.
>>88747153Upgrade your RouterOS
>>88767268running a laptop or desktop computer as a router will cost you $200+ a year in electricity. compared to an off the shelf router which would be under $20 a year.
>>88767306would a RPi work? assuming only WiFi for devices
Can I join?2x R619AC (ipq40xx 896MHz OC)one acts as a router, AP, dhcp, recursive dns server, adblock, firewall logging all types of network shitanother one acts as a dumb AP (most services disabled) and houses an nvme drive on it. runs Samba, DLNA, and Transmission.
>>88767227desu, its not because of that. its because of ath9k patches that allowed you to do wifi on non-wifi frequencies ;)
>>88770025Yeah but that still doesn't excuse taking them taking the lazy way out. The ability to install FW that doesn't suck donkey dick is a selling point for soho routers. CFW is also important for security given how often routers are unsafe out of factory and end up exposing the inner network or being turned into botnet clients.
>>88771200yup youre very right about that.
>>88770009>P&W R619ACIs it Pratt&Whitney?
>>88770025>>88771200>ath9k patches that allowed you to do wifi on non-wifi frequenciesBut that's only useful for doing mesh between two routers with such custom firmware right? If my AP starts broadcasting on custom frequencies my phone will just ignore that
>>88743984>OpenWRTThe advantages over dd wrt?
>>88773276Much higher developer activity:https://github.com/mirror/dd-wrt/commits/masterhttps://github.com/openwrt/openwrt/commits/master
Since this is kind of a router thread, can you anons recommend me a couple of not terribly expensive routers that can handle at least 100mbit VPN connection without choking the CPU? Preferably both Wireguard and OpenVPN.Third-party firmware support isn't a must but it'd nice to have alternative firmwares.I was looking at Asus TUF AX5400 since it has Merlin support but apparently for good VPN speed you need a CPU with hardware accelerated encryption or something and this router doesn't have it? I've zero clue about router CPUs and finding VPN benchmarks for routers is near impossible and only available for a small number of models (usually high-end).
>>88773350Is there any hardware acceleration for WireGuard's ChaCha20, apart from Intel QAT in their Xeons?
>>88773424No idea honestly, as I said I know absolutely nothing about router (or mobile for that matter) CPUs. HWA may be more of a requirement for OpenVPN then.
Looking up spend a max of $500 on an opnsense machine with 2.5gb capability - just a router; I have switches and access points already. Should I go with one of those fanless AliExpress boxes that are getting popular, DIY? Looking for input.
>>88746093I'd install literally anything just so I wouldn't have to use RouterOS
>>88773148idk but herehttps://github.com/openwrt/openwrt/commit/12d33d388c52565803a746586426bed3d3fcc941
>>88773196yup exactly that. and its not just 80211s, any 802.11 connection can be done. back then it was mostly done with IBSS or Client/AP+WDS/4MAC
>>88744477How do I perform this test on my router?
>>88773196theres also those people who just removes DFS(5250 - 5330 @ 80), (24), DFS, AUTO-BW(5250 - 5330 @ 80), (24), AUTO-BWsome people cant wait a minute or hates DFS events.
>>88773196good thing some places do still have themhttp://cyber-place.ru/showthread.php?t=2657
>>88774780What can I read that will convince me of this?I like playing with openwrt but after deploying and configuring RouterOS devices for nearly a decade at my job I've come to really love how the CLI and Web interfaces are laid out. Plus the only stability issues I've ever had were ancient units installed before my time.
>>88775296>What can I read that will convince me of this?I don't understand what you're asking of me.
>>88751425>is there one that supports fiber input directlyit does not exist sadly.
with no dog in this fight, I saw a mi-router 4a as a suggestion. Is that solid to start with, coming form fairly ancient Wi-Fi
>>88743984based, I bought one of these as well for openwrt
>>88773601You need a PCI NIC with 2.5Gb ports and a PC that won't choke. The PC itself doesn't need to be anything special. You can achieve quality routing on some fairly ancient hardware.The NIC capable of what you want will probably be the most expensive part of the entire machine if you're willing to use any old case and guts. Any quad core 2.5+Ghz made in the last 10 years, 8GB of RAM, and a SATA SSD is going to be plenty. You can get old office machines in this spec for $200 nowadays.
>>88773424Not seeing anything in their docs mentioning it. The idea of ChaCha20 is it's easy to implement with basic SIMD instructions on almost any arch so you don't need special crypto accelerators.
>>88765028Shit well maybe I don’t want a 4a then. Honestly I just need something flashable to get me down the road a few years until I buy a home and build out something better. Just confused as to what I should get.
alright threads been up for 3 days. just come to a conclusion already /g/. which is the best router setup
>>88779196seconding this question
>>88779196ive literally been asking for months what router to get for openwrt where performance isn't halved over stock and nobody can give me a concrete answer.
>>88776085Really? That's a shame if so. I need one too.Is it just too early for the software or is it a case of "we're not messing with this hardware"?
>>88781200>https://desuarchive.org/g/thread/88622650/#q88649134Whats the beginner vs pro difference though
>>88781200same question in that thread lolno one says “go get an x”ffs this place
>>88782183Networking can be complex or it can be as simple as plugging in a cable. It depends on what you want to do. To learn the difference read more about network security and understand what the operating systems offer. All of the information is out there.>>88782196How do you expect anyone to know what you want when you provide no info? If you want the basics then it's not hard to search for what you want. But you sound like you're searching for something specific while also keeping it a secret as to what you actually want.
>>88765028>Can you post some wifi performance screenshots? Pic related, using WiFi 6 with Intel AX200 controller. The AP is in another room, approximately 5 meters away. With a wired connection I get 900/900.>Does MU-MIMO actually work?I tried running speedtest on my laptop (WiFi 5 only) at the same time, got the following results: 445.1 + 114.81 download, 533.63 + 159.29 upload.
>>88782413>>88765028This one is from the WiFi 5 laptop, with nothing else stressing the network.
>>88743984Why should install OpenWRT and not keep the stock firmware on my router?
>>88782758Is it too dificult for you to compare the features of each and then decide on what you prefer? If so, just stick with what you have.
>>88782334bro i just want the top from bottom experience, ill figure it out from there, just tell me what to get even if its ''complicated'' lmao.
>>88782824Alright, then get a FortiGate. Have fun.
I think used Aruba stuff is the best desu
>>88782856this sounds like a troll though
>>88783476Too bad you didn't specify what you want, right? There are a lot of options out there.
>>88783476Absolutely not. Some solid gear. I’d like set it and forget it but something like an FG 90 is a good oneCoupled with an Aruba 2930F you’re set thing is, I don’t want a pro rack at home. I’m replacing stuff from 2012 but last thing I want to do isndick around with switches when not at work. Guess that’s too much to ask for
>>88783497define what I want though. what are my options? i'm used to already knowing what my options are but the enterprise world is just too damn big. from small businesses, to big military applications, i just want the best of the best dammit
>>88783545what's the downside of a pro rack o.O
>>88783638>define what I want thoughAre you fucking with me? How should I know what you want? I don't know what speeds you need and I don't know what security measures you need.>what are my options?Try a search engine...
>>88782334fair enough. Should I just get a fortigate, an Aruba switch and some 513/515 APs? Really don’t want to spend that much, would prefer to keep it under 600$ I don’t need pro in the home, was hoping to avoid it actually. Custom firmware is fine, wireless coverage and vlans are a must
>>88783652at the moment space. I need a short term fix until I have a bigger placeNothing wrong in theory tho
>>88783678all the speeds. all the security measures bar getting rid of my isp.
>>88783710Anon, if you are not hardcore into networking don't get a FortiGate.You can get great security from pfSense or OPNsense which are free. You just need to buy the hardware. You can get decent hardware that can handle speeds you need and draws little voltage if you just search. I was lucky enough to get a netgate 4100 for free from work. It's overkill for my home network. Personally, I prefer pfSense mainly because it has pfBlockerNG.You can also find decent managed or unmanaged switches for cheap if you just search. This shouldn't be particularly important for home networks. Making sure it handles the throughput you need is the most important aspect.As far as access points. I used to have a UniFi AP AC PRO but recently switched to a EAP660 HD because it doesn't force you to make an account and use their controller to access it.Just try to figure out what you want to achieve and then do your research.
>>88783550mt7621 / 7905
>>88784150that's ARM though, I'll be more interested when it's RISC-V
>>88784010looking at solutions that are router and AP is mediatek any good? I’m weighing options between separate components (and PoE APs) and aio
>>88743984I haven't tried OpenWRT on mine yet, but I can tell you that the increased speeds and slightly longer range over my old RT-N66U aren't worth the god-awful stability. I have to reboot the damn thing almost every day because the 2.4Ghz band becomes unstable.
>>88775069does this leave visible wifi signature? i.e. would 802.11d broadcasts/spectrum management fields betray that I'm not using DFS?
>>88743984alright bros. right now im a complete basedchugging networklet. i even use my ISP's modem and router (they're separate) and configure them through their provided mobile app because they got rid of the web interface. well I'm done being a cuck.how do i become an absolute networkchad? what kind of hardware do i need to acquire? what kind of software do i need to use? spoonfeed me pls senpais
>>88749286Looks interesting. Why isn't the WAN port more than 2.5Gbit? My connection is more than 1 gigabit.
>>88784932You likely have to use your ISP's modem but can replace your router with TP-Link Archer A7/C7 running OpenWRT (there is a chance you might need to clone MAC address from your ISP's router).Then start digging into wiki and adding useful packages. Like DNS adblocking, guest wifi over VPN, WireGuard VPN for remote access to your network.
>>88784932Start by acquiring a Network+ book and read through that.Most people buy a modem, a firewall/wired router and a separate wireless AP. This keeps your setup pretty modular so if you move on to fiber for example you don't have to throw away your whole config, just the modem.PFsense is good for firewall, OpenWRT for router/WAP hardware and modems are still very closed source so anything with a decent chipset and good reviews should work. If you have fiber your ISP will provide an ONT, if it has wireless built in you will want to disable that, and you won't need to buy a cable modem.
>>88743984>Given secondhand mATX AMD A6 computer>Chuck a few NICs in it and OpenWRT x86 target on it>OpenWRT doesn't recognise the embedded RealTek NIC nor the Intel I210-T NIC>Has no problem with the Intel I350 NIC>Kmods for all of them are in the image including dependenciesMake it fucking stop.
>>88785595check PCIe settings in UEFI
>>88743984I need to replace my RT-AC68U, I've had tomato on it this entire time but I think the hardware is starting to finally go- getting a lot of random resets and throughput nosedives when I have more than two devices on it simultaneously.suggestions? trying to keep the budget around $80 max
>>88787460I had the same one and a few months ago I replaced it with >>88761169 after the switch decided to shit the bed and started broadcasting garbage.
>>88784519It's Broadcom shit. Not going to run right without blob drivers.
>>88744330That's mikrotik. It can be an ap for ~100 devices. It is more than capable of handling any fucking soho use case
>>88776346No, you're better off getting an ASUS, TP-Link or D-Link router. Don't get xiaomeme, their OpenWRT support is not only shit they're also shit devices that tend to fail.
where the fuck is router and home server general? why not just combine the two ?
>>88790893TP-link 1750 sounds like a solid choice, seems like a few makers have the same name like archer? This might be a good budget alternative to my shit setup now. I like the built-in VPN and I’ll def flash if I get it. Does it support adguard DNS over tls? I am not seeing that and I’m phone fagging on a weak signal
>>88790893I missed that this is ac and not ax, does it REALLY matter?
>>88744145>>88744288can these non-free closed-source proprietary botnets run OpenWRT?
>>88792782Yeah TP-Link AC1750 is exactly the OP's Archer A7/C7.https://openwrt.org/docs/guide-user/services/dns/adguard-home says:>Minimum of 50MB free RAM.Mine has 47MB free.>Minimum of 100MB free disk/flash space (see flash/storage requirements).You'd need to add a flash drive in the USB port. The router has 8MB flash total.>Higher performance routers i.e. dual-core with higher processor clock speeds are recommended.Archer A7/C7 is single core so this might be the limiting factor.
>>88792782Archer C7 is getting old, though it's a decent router.Your best best is to avoid Lantiq SoCs as they won't get supported and newer TP-Links have them, do a quick search for "openwrt "name of the router" before you buy anything.https://openwrt.org/toh/views/toh_available_16128>>88792819I was looking at a chink brand named Cudy a few days to get something cheap like the AX1800, might be up your alley, it's only missing an USB port. You can't wrong with Asus, Mikrotik, D-Link etc routers typically but do check the "Unsupported Functions" column in the table above.
>>88792948>Archer C7 is getting old, though it's a decent router.WireGuard can't saturate more than 50Mbps for me so I'd really be in the market for something more powerful. But I haven't found anything better than the King under $150.
>>88792948Hey that Cudy looks pretty slick, and exactly what I’m loooking for. I’m researching it now. OoenWRT support seems solid and this might get me down the road. Appreciate the recommendation
>>88743984ITT people who use routers as more than just wifi access points.Why?
https://openwrt.org/toh/linksys/e8450This is probably what I'd buy today if I didn't have my current D-Link.
Does anyone here have knowledge on how to connect an OpenWRT router directly to an ONT?I managed to get it working easily with an old Fritzbox I had lying around (though it only has 100M ports) IPv4 and IPv6 worked right away, apparently just putting everything on automatic/dhcp, but I can't seem to replicate it on OpenWRT. I get no signal.
>>88793612I only use it as a wifi access point but I'm getting sick of it not working properly and having to reset it every week
>>88793122mt7621 routers are around $50-80. Basically 3x faster for double the price.
>>88793612Because it's there and it's always on anyway, so why wouldn't you?
>>88794845Can it route 10gbps traffic?
>>88792948mfgr website isn’t clear- do i just add more of these cudy boxes to do mesh? It’s credibly a cheap solution if so
>>88743984I got one of these and then never did anything with it because you need to install a different OS for it to do anything cool :(