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File: budgie.png (137 KB, 856x895)
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MASS EXODUS FROM GTK PLATFORM!
People will not put up with gnome devs' arrogance and incompetence anymore. Budgie, and soon many other distros, will find their home from platform other than GTK/GNOME.
Red Hat's monopoly goes down from today!

https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-ecosystem/
>>
Literally who cares about your toy system and its different repacks? Kill yourself, sperg.
>>
>>83386635
Motif will rise again!
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>>83386635
GTK is the future, surry chuds. Can be easily adapted to all needs, all screen types and all input types. It’s not a coincidence that the most functional Pinephone distros are the ones using GNOME.
Red Hat struck gold by backing up a project that aims to provide a minimal, coherent and stable foundation to build programs and extensions upon. All the other bloated projects are unmaintainable legacy garbage that might work well if you have a 1080p screen and a mouse but shit the bed using anything else
>>
GNOME is honestly bretty gud once you get used to it. Don't approach it wanting to be like a traditional 90s Windows DE, and instead use it the way the developers of it intend. The only downside is the customization is a pain in that you need to switch around between 3 different programs and download plugins. If all that crap was better integrated like in Cinnamon then GNOME would be perfect desu.
>>
>>83386687
GTK is shit and everybody knows it.

The entire Freedesktop project is infested with retards, avoid.
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>>83386779
Gnoomies paradigm is fundamentally garbage. They keep defending it by saying shit like "nooo you just want win95". Just because you made up something different doesn't make it good. Even their own studies show that at the very best and cherry picked results gnome isn't any better than any other paradigm.
Nobody wants to use gnome shit outside of 3 redditors who keep shilling about how it "just works" for them without any extensions. Only non-constructor distros to use vanilla unaltered gnome are Fedora and Rhel (and I would bet RHEL users such as Pixar use gnome flashback). Everyone else makes adjustments. Because it's sucks.
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>>83386844
thing is, i do want windows 95, or kde 1, kde 2, gnome 2 - anything like that. i am writing this on a touchscreen laptop (reversible screen) with kde 3, and using the touchscreen isn't a problem for me. i can, without exception, perform any task faster in this DE than in gnome 3 - FACT. if there's one improvement that should be made to the interface microsoft pioneered in 1995, it's the removal of menu bars - i simply see no reason for them to exist.
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>>83386635
>LINUX IS COMPLETE GARBAGE AND THE MAIN ISSUE IS FRAGMENTATION
>QUICK, LETS FIND A SOLUTION!
>"I KNOW! I KNOW! MORE FRAGMENTATION!"
Fucking genius, this year is truly the year of linux.
>>
>>83386952
weird angle. if they opt for qt the ecosystem won't be any more fragmented than it already is
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>>83386635
This guy and his shit project(that wasn't even built by him) literally never contributed to gtk despite all of his crying, what makes you think he will be able to build a platform from scratch.
It's another schizo moment when some tard who was freeloading all the work gtk and gnome did while acting like a paid customer without doing anything thinks he's hot shit only for his project to crash and burn later.
>>
>>83386952
That image is shit. If they truly created something to cover all other use cases then it wouldn't created another competing standard. For example, look at Pipewire, it supports all use cases of ALSA, Pulse and Jack and is actively obsoleting all of them and everyone is going to switch to it in the next 2 years (i've already switched 6 months ago and everything just worked).
>>
>>83386635
Just use stlwrt.
https://github.com/thesquash/stlwrt
>>
>>83386981
Sounds janky
Would not use
>>
>>83386931
i say menu bars should be eliminated, because they're mostly redundant. a toolbar with a couple of cascading menus could do everything the menu bar does and take up less space - and if you dont like icons only, add a subtitle option and everyone will be happy
>>
>>83386635
>https://joshuastrobl.com/2021/09/14/building-an-alternative-ecosystem/
that is a terrible font for a blog post my eyes hurt now.
Also the budgie devs have tried to move away from gtk (and vala) 3 times now. They started with vala + gtk3 then announced to go for c then qt5 then gtk4 + c and yet budgie is still vala. Sounds more like they have a leadership problem...
They are right that lots of stuff in gtk4 is just plain broken but that means more people should contribute not less. It can't be good if we all adopt qt5 we need some alternative and the gnome devs shouldn't have compelte control over gtk development.
>>
>>83386981
Jack and ALSA obsoleted pulseshit years ago and nobody noticed. The latest redhat garbage isn't going to do any better.
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>>83386931
Menu bars are ok, they are a drawer for a bunch of complex functions that a program can provide; and are easily discoverable.
The main offender of current gtk are client side decorations. Its not the job of a gui toolkit, its a wm job. Altought it sucks that there's no interface / window hint in X11 that could add per app custom buttons in title bars (that I know off).
>>
>>83387009
>Sounds more like they have a leadership problem...
It's just that ever since their lead dev fucked off from the project, the only people left are a few /g/-tier programmers who think they can do everything and they're the smartes people in the room, then realizing they can't do shit every time they actually try the moment they see the amount of work to be done. Yet this cycle continues somehow. This time they're trying to frame it as an "ecosystem", hoping somebody will make all the work for them.
>>
>>83387018
CSDs literally don't make sense on linux. They make sense on, say, windows, because there's no multiple DEs and everyone already conforms to the same style by default. They make sense on Mac OS because there's only one DE but also Apple has the global menu so you can literally have both CSDs and Menu bars at the same time. But on loonix/bsd/etc we have a choice of many different DEs like gnome, kde, lxqt, budgie or pure window managers so it makes perfect sense to have Server Side decorations as the main thing. CSDs are a retarded idea.
>>
>>83386844
I used to hate GNOME, too, until I actually used it and understood its design intent.
>>
>>83386687
Ok bruce3434 time for your meds
>>
>>83387018
i agree, gtk csd is awful. i drag windows around quite a lot - so of course i want consistent title bars not covered by widgets that prevent me from doing so.
>just hold alt
what if im on a touchscreen and on the move? what if i only have a mouse? windows 95 onwards accounts for these possibilities, kde does too

as for menu bars, don't you think toolbars could have drawers too? something like pic related that drops down into a cascading menu?
>>
>>83386981
>look at Pipewire, it
randomly changes sound from my headphones on Fedora.
I just want my pure ALSA back.
>>
>>83387086
If it was just a UX philosophy problem - that's one thing - fine.
But it's not just that. They moved to and JS/CSS desktop with GNOME 3 (even before electron/v8), for no reason whatsoever. So GNOME ends up being bloated slow trash that eats your ram AND has an unintuitive (to most users) design UX.
ATLEAST Electron apps strive to be usable.
>>
>>83387116
Use ALSA plus Jack like a sensible person.
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>>83387108
You can drag gtk csd by dragging the buttons, switchers and whatever, retard.
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>>83387120
>electron apps
>usable
top kek m8
>>
>>83386844
>you just want win95
Their DE lacks a certain important feature that even win98 has so it's understandable people wanting a good experience makes them seethe.
>>
>>83387120
if you don’t know or even think about why JS+CSS is incredibly useful for creating UIs then you have no say in the matter
>>
>>83387135
still ugly and inconsistent. probably difficult to operate with a touchscreen too, since there's click and release with a time threshold, and click and move. bad design all around
>touchscreens are for children
your DE looks like android
>>
>>83387124
>plus Jack
Complicated.
ALSA just works.
>>
>Krashing Desktop Environment
>>
>>83387161
>JS
>useful
opinion discarded
>>
Use TDE.
>>
>>83387171
>still ugly and inconsistent
It's literally the least ugly and inconsistent stuff in the whole linux ecosystem, if you disagree and say something like kde, you're a delusional retard.
>probably
So you don't even know what you sperg about.
>>
>>83386635
Can EFL even look modern or will it always have that 2000s look? I still don't understand why they need to move away from vala to C why not pick rust or cpp as the bindings language if vala generates such shitty code. Writing pure C gtk is a massive pain in the ass and should only be done for core features that need performance.
>>
>>83387199
i doubt you've ever used it on a touchscreen. it's not designed for touchscreens, nor for keyboards - it's designed specifically for keyboard+mouse users, and it's not even good for that. if your flagship DE isn't designed for every input device, it's worthless
>>
>>83387191
keep living in your echo chamber faggot, only someone who has never had to deal with developing a real UI and UX can utter this bullshit
>>
>>83386635
>mass exodus
>budgie
Bit of a hyperbole
>>
>>83387248
i cant even remember what budgie is. is that one of them fag desktop environments like cinnamon??
>>
>>83386779
>gnome is actually bretty gud once you ignore all the bad parts
based. drooling. retard. poster.
>>
Mate wins again
>>
>>83387248
Pop OS guys are considering making their own DE based around KWin (kde). It's just another gnome exodus. You often hear of people going from GTK to QT but there are literally no cases of devs switching from QT to GTK. Little by little, everyone will leave.
>>
>>83387221
But you're just a clueless retard. You actually don't know how much work was put into libhandy(soon to be libadwaita) to introduce touch friendly patterns into gtk and gnome 40 to introduce touch/trackpad friendly gestures. You're keep trying to use this as point while it's literally the best linux has to offer in this sphere.
>>
>>83386687
>GTK is the future, surry chuds
Nice culture slide in.
>>
>>83387135
Its still a shit design. I expect a button to click, not to be a drag area. This is one of the many reasons why gtk sucks so mush in general - no fixed simple rules for ui elements.

>>83387108
I can see your point. But Isee toolbars as shortcuts for functions used often and not a full repo of actions a program can make. If anything toolbars should be easily customizable with any function available throught tthe usual menu and in any order the user wish to have. Yet most programs do not allows for it except enabling/disabling one specific button or two.
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>>83387275
>how much work
Does the amount of effort matter if the result is still shit?
>>
>>83386669
Enlightenment will rise again
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>>83387275
a DE should be usable with just a mouse, or just a keyboard. ideally, a DE should be at its full potential when used with both a mouse and keyboard. gnome is not usable with just a mouse or just akeyboard, and is inefficient when using both, when compared to most other DEs. as for mouse gestures, gnomes design almost necessitates their presence, so it's good it's getting them finally. KDE sucks dick too btw
>>
>>83387285
>I expect a button to click, not to be a drag area
So you haven't used anything proper touch in your life. Surprise, it will scroll if you drag the button.
>>83387289
But it's not shit, the stuff that ported to it works great. Better than plasma mobile shit despite qt being objectively better than gtk, especially for this usage.
>>
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>>83386635
About time more people started realizing what metastatic cancer GN*ME is to the human race. Its developers and supporters should be, to the very least, sterilized and on a leash.
>>
>>83387270
Good. We need more Qt based DEs because KDE is fucking trash.
>>
>>83386635
Muh themeing api. Literally can't ever ever ever ever fucking work good. So just piss the fuck off
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>>83387325
hell yeah
>>
>>83387306
>gnome is not usable with just a mouse or just akeyboard,
But it is, you fucking schizo?
>>
>>83387313
>So you haven't used anything proper touch in your life. Surprise, it will scroll if you drag the button.
On phones it make sense as space is limited and its expected that the whole ui can scroll from any point (except sometime a top bar that is shown clearly to be different).
On desktop? Its retarded as there should space for everything to be separate.
>inb4 Gnome is made to be used smartphones too!
Gnomes phones are almost non existent and look ways shittier to use than android/ios and other derivatives
>>
Qt waifus will win
>>
>>83386687
>Pinephone
literally who
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>>83386635
IT'S TIME FOR JAVAFX!!!!
>>
>>83387547
bless the cow god and vishnu
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>>83387579
JavaFX > GTK and Qt.
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>>83386844
>nooo you just want win95
yes
>>
>>83386635
>>83386635
monumentally based blahg post
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>>83386687
Red Hat = 41%
>>
Just bring back GTK2
>>
>>83386635
Why hasn't anybody made a fork of GTK?
>>
>>83387984
its unmaintainable shit
its way easier to make a simple toolkit from scratch
>>
don't care, still using gnome.
gnome devs are right in everything (except thumbnails in file picker) and linux community is just retarded.
linux arrogant community is the main reason why desktop linux sucks
>>
>>83386635
>I'm an unashamed
stopped reading there, anyone who starts post like this is a fucking retard and nothing they say is relevant.
>>
>>83387998
Then why did sucklesstards not make a small toolkit instead of importing gtk into their "non-bloated" garbageware?
>>
>>83386669
>Motif will rise again!
Yes it will, FUCK REDHAT!!!! FUCK IBM!!! FUCK GLOWNIGGERS!!!
>>
>>83388026
motif with arcan or wayland
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>>83388046
>wayland
It's still redhat shit, don't know about arcan will look into it, BUT I STILL LIKE MY X11
>>
>>83386635
Based
GTK is not meant to be used outside of gnome, use a real fui toolkit like Qt
>>
GNOME 40 is so fucking good on a laptop. Coping pcmasterrace niggers who can't see past their 2000w desktops
>>
>>83387096
this, bruce needs to take his est
>>
A true alternative DE will rise up with the existence of a new cross platform GUI toolkit.
Me? I'm holding out for Microsoft's .NET MAUI.
Prepare for DE(ez nuts) .NET
>>
>>83388158
They want to use efl aka the most shittiest thing imaginable. Can't wait for their reaction when their own users are going to shit on them hard and they won't be able to use gnome as an excuse.
>>
>>83388158
>writing a DE in Microsoft's javaFX
lmao. I could see MS emplying some pajeets to do this just for grifting
>>
>>83386635
that's what they get for not having thumbnails in their filepicker
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>>83388017
I don't think any of the sucktard programs even use GTK (maybe surf?)
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>>83388438
Get what. some shitters who never did anything swearing that they will never do anything?
>>
>>83386952
They're opting for things that already exist: Enlightenment and Qt.

If anything, it's GNOME what has been fragmenting the GNU desktop for the past 10 years by adding more and more of their retarded "standards" that do nothing but break features.
>>
>>83386635
Time to switch to macOS, let the kids fight themselves while the adults get shit done.
>>
>>83387276
Is this one of those /pol/ raids where they pretend to be libs/left, imagine falling for such a myth of let wing raiders. Like if right wing ideologies are so good, why are banning/crying over left wing critical theory?
>>
>>83388446
[/tmp] $ git clone --depth 1 https://git.suckless.org/surf
Cloning into 'surf'...
remote: Enumerating objects: 16, done.
remote: Counting objects: 100% (16/16), done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (15/15), done.
remote: Total 16 (delta 0), reused 1 (delta 0), pack-reused 0
Unpacking objects: 100% (16/16), 23.77 KiB | 2.97 MiB/s, done.
[/tmp] $ grep -nr 'GTK' surf
surf/surf.c:181:/* GTK/WebKit */
surf/surf.c:657: gtk_window_set_title(GTK_WINDOW(c->win), title);
surf/surf.c:660: gtk_window_set_title(GTK_WINDOW(c->win), name);
surf/surf.c:1286: return GTK_WIDGET(n->view);
surf/surf.c:1387: gtk_container_add(GTK_CONTAINER(c->win), GTK_WIDGET(c->view));
surf/surf.c:1389: gtk_widget_grab_focus(GTK_WIDGET(c->view));
surf/surf.c:1391: gwin = gtk_widget_get_window(GTK_WIDGET(c->win));
surf/surf.c:1428: w = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_TOPLEVEL);
surf/surf.c:1431: gtk_window_set_wmclass(GTK_WINDOW(w), wmstr, "Surf");
surf/surf.c:1435: gtk_window_set_role(GTK_WINDOW(w), wmstr);
surf/surf.c:1438: gtk_window_set_default_size(GTK_WINDOW(w), winsize[0], winsize[1]);
surf/surf.c:1801: GTK_WINDOW(c->win));
surf/surf.c:1820: win = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_TOPLEVEL);
surf/surf.c:1824: gtk_container_add(GTK_CONTAINER(win), GTK_WIDGET(wcert));
surf/surf.c:1916: gtk_window_unfullscreen(GTK_WINDOW(c->win));
surf/surf.c:1918: gtk_window_fullscreen(GTK_WINDOW(c->win));
surf/surf.1:16:surf is a simple Web browser based on WebKit/GTK+. It is able
surf/config.mk:15:GTKINC = `pkg-config --cflags gtk+-3.0 gcr-3 webkit2gtk-4.0`
surf/config.mk:16:GTKLIB = `pkg-config --libs gtk+-3.0 gcr-3 webkit2gtk-4.0`
surf/config.mk:21:INCS = $(X11INC) $(GTKINC)
surf/config.mk:22:LIBS = $(X11LIB) $(GTKLIB) -lgthread-2.0
surf/README:3:surf is a simple Web browser based on WebKit/GTK+.
surf/README:7:In order to build surf you need GTK+ and Webkit/GTK+ header files.

They're retarded, they use webkit, they use GTK, bloat
>>
>>83386635
Why not join kde, why make anotha standard what the fuck?
>>
>>83388547
(You)
>>
>>83388640
KDE will never win when they depend on a commercial toolkit owned by the commercial company. It doesn't matter if they have some kind of agreement with them, the others don't want to invest and then get fucked in the ass in a few years. If it's ever gets forked, then something might happen.
>>
>>83388687
They will never win if they use proper tools, such is the way of the freetard
>>
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Qt chads can't stop winning
>>
The main problem with GTK to me is that in spite of the GNOME devs intending it to be "the one and only way", Adwaita is inherently a very ugly theme and as far as UI goes, it is terrible.
>massive header bars with very small buttons
>tons of wasted space everywhere
>bizarre filepicker with absolutely TONS of wasted space and, for whatever reason, high contrast icons
How many GTK3 apps are literally just a window with one button in the middle? They're like five times the size they need to be.
To me, GNOME and GTK have this inherent design issue where it just looks broken by default. Every GNOME install looks and feels like something installed wrong.
It's also really labyrinthine. More than once I have installed GNOME out of curiosity and been totally unable to install extensions.
I'll say this though, with Arc Menu and Dash to Panel, Gnome is borderline usable.
>>
>>83388017
>sucklesstards
you answered your own question
and by simple I do not mean dysfunctional without a gorillons patches
>>
>>83388703
I mean, they ARE retarded, there's no arguing about it. It's not only about not picking qt, If literally both solus and pop will sent a guy to help code a theming api like the gnome asked, this will actually just happen and everyone will have it properly, but they prefer to jump to something else, rather than actually do the work ever, as the leaches they are.
They were complaining about dark mode for years and then literally 1(one) dude actually contributed, wrote the proper implementation and it will be in g42.
>>
>>83388026
>fuck glowniggers
>shills X/Motif
ah yes, the proprietary toolkit that made desktop Unix a pain together with a minimally functional standard that let Unix vendors compete against eachother with nonportable extensions
>>
>>83388740
>dysfunctional without gorillions of patches
kek, I almost forgot
they keep base "project" under X amount of lines and cope by outsourcing all the bloat.
>NOOO YOU ADDED IT YOURSELF ITS NOT PART OF THE PROJECT, NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>>
>>83388754
They literally implemented a working theming api and got rejected because some gnome devs think "accent color" is better than actual themes.
Stop blaming people not contributing if you are going to reject them and waste their time anyway.
>>
>>83386635
Will we finally get thumbnails in file picker?
>>
>>83386635
I wish there was a community effort to fork GTK3.
>>
>>83388813
They did not. They wrote "If true then disable libadwaita theme" lazy tard witch and hoped it will fly. We're talking about ACTUAL theming api devs can target instead of random css hacking.
Stop talking bullshit if you're a clueless retard having no idea what you're talking about.
>>
>>83386844
> nooo you just want win95
How is this supposed to be a bad thing.
Shit defense, as expected of gnometrannies.
>>
awesome, EFL is based as fuck!
>>
>>83388813
You have no clue how much actual work a fully functional(it will never be fully) theme is
>>83388870
You have 200 DEs that are win95. Go use that
>>
>>83388769
Don't care about old boomer issues that don't exist anymore, Motif is LGPL software
Redhat shill doesn't want GTK to die so he doesn't lose his job
>>
>>83386635
Praise be to lord gaben. I've been waiting for years for this to happen and finally it coming true. I still remember the gnome apologists being so certain GTK and Gnome were the future. We're in the future now faggots and your only course of action is to dilate.
>>
>>83388847
>css hacking
You talk like one of those gnome devs. There is nothing wrong with css theming. It's just some "stop theming my apps" devs get butthurt by users changing their ugly ui who invented all these "hacking" talk.
It has been working on gtk3 and themes like yaru and juno are the evidence of that. And it's only whether it works or not that matters to the users. So stop trying to replace the working solution with something that doesn't even work.
>>83388887
There are always bugs in any program and no one expect them to be perfect. Besides, why do I even need that for a fucking theme? If it looks good that's all we need.
>>
>>83389019
>It has been working on gtk3 and themes
It wasn't. You're like those kdetards who got so used to glitches and weird shit, you just think it's normal. You can literally load pop os right now, enable their dark theme and some of the default apps will have unreadable visuals.
>and themes like yaru and juno are the evidence of that.
Yaru is literally an adwaita recolor for years at this point , that's the only reason it works.
>>
>>83388887
>you have 200 des go use that
No. I will destroy Gnome, GTK and all Gnome devs for their uncompromising totalitarian attitude towards FOSS. That faggot Poettering is next.
>>
>>83389080
>dark theme
Never used that nigger shit and don't care.
>glitches
Never noticed any. And even if it does it's still better than the ugly mess default adwaita. So you're complaining about something wasn't perfect with nothing at all and your point is moot.
>>
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>>83386669
I hope so.

>>83388769
>proprietary toolkit
Motif has been open source under the LGPL for a while now.
>let Unix vendors compete against eachother with nonportable extensions
Are you saying a toolkit should restrict people's freedom because they might make stuff with it you don't like? That's asinine.
>>
>>83389138
>never used, never noticed
Typical tard. Well, they're the actual devs and not an autist from 4chan, so they have to deal with users and app devs who used and noticed have their shit broken, that's why they're working on it while you're sperging.
>>
>>83387984
They have. It's called Stlwrt.
>>
>Distro is anti-gnome
Based, installing it right now I don't care if it's a meme or not, it's all Linux.
>>
>>83388158
>Me? I'm holding out for Microsoft's .NET MAUI.
you are stupid. First the name MAUI is stolen from KDE's MAUI project which is significantly older. Second MS won't do shit for linux they expect the community aka free tards to provide linux MAUI bindings so they will either use gtk again or use Avalonia at which point MS MAUI is just a scam.
Waiting for MS to do anything but rip off other projects is stupid. They won't do any work for linux.
>>
>>83386635
I know no one wants to do this, but it might be time for Cinnamon, MATE, XFCE and Budgie devs to collaborate together and either fork GTK3 or move to Qt.
>>
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>>83386981
Pipewire is trash.
>>
Gnome devs are the worst devs on the planet
Qt could become proprietary at any time.
A new toolkit needs to be made from the ground up.
>>
>>83389451
>Qt could become proprietary at any time.
Yes it's very scary
>A new toolkit needs to be made from the ground up.
There already is motif
>>
>>83386635
Good, but question is why not use Qt
>>
>>83389472
see >>83389451
>>
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>>83389470
>motif
Fucking nigger you made me look
>>
True chads use fltk anyway
>>
>>83389451
The moment Qt becomes proprietary I'm just going back to debloated windows 10 as there just won't be any point if the standards I like to use just become locked down.
>>
>>83389451
>Qt could become proprietary at any time.
and then you just fork it they can't enforce a license change on previous version only on future versions.
Also the only reason why gtk sucks so much is because of all the gobject drama. They blog post is essentially about that too ( the final class boilerplate stuff he is talking about ). If someone was willing to fork gtk and maintain a c++ rewrite the toolkit could be easier to maintain but thats a lot of work and you won't get all the bindings for other languages anymore.
>>
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>>83389472
They're concerned about the company suddenly changing their license.
Basically desktop GNU/Linux locked itself into 2 toolkits. One of them has 30 year old legacy code no one understands besides the devs, and those devs are hired by Red Hat and rarely cooperate with the outside world. The other one is written by the Qt Company, which has been hostile to Free Software from time to time.

No one wants to make a toolkit from scratch. No one wants to fork GTK or Qt either, as that's an insane amount of work.
It's very hard right now.
>>
>>83389552
It won't and it can't.
>>
>>83389561
>and then you just fork it they can't enforce a license change on previous version only on future versions.
And what after? What if something major like Wayland comes out and you need big changes to get it to work?
The issue isn't forking, but rather maintaining the fork.
>>
Budgie has been moving away from GTK since 2017 or so
Budgie 11 was supposed to be made with QT but still using GTK programs
I guess the only difference now is that they don't even want those programs
>>
>>83387325
Will never happen because KDE developers can't say no to more trash.
>>
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Come home white man
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>>83388782
Do sucklesstards actually care about number of lines? That's even more retarded than I thought.
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>>83389606
>What if something major like Wayland comes out
>>
>>83389619
You're missing the most important part of Qt

That sexy Konqi
>>
>>83389451
>A new toolkit needs to be made from the ground up.
JAVA!!!!!!!!!
F X !!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>
If GNOME is so bad, why do people keep forking it?
>>
>>83389689
I think the only GNOME fork to this day was MATE.
>>
>>83389451
>new toolkit
Can we kill "shared libraries" first? It's kinda bloated for small shit and linux apps should be portable. Yup that "hotbar indicator" literally needed that entire python dependency.
I still can't run my firefox which I accidentally updated and requires the latest version of glibcxx like wtf distros suck.
Distros are literally cloud OS that you can't even upgrade a single/specific components in an offline/airgap environment
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>>83389451
>Qt could become proprietary at any time.
Good. At that point the existing Qt releases are required to be relicensed to BSD and it would probably just attract more developers.
https://kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation/
>Should The Qt Company discontinue the development of the Qt Free Edition under the required licenses, then the Foundation has the right to release Qt under a BSD-style license or under other open source licenses. The agreements stay valid in case of a buy-out, a merger or bankruptcy.
>>
>>83389746
there were a couple of small distros that tried to statically link wih musl as much as possible but they're all dead now.
>>
>>83389884
nakadashi
>>
>>83386981
Pipewire is trash for low-latency. It's not a replacement for Jack, and even the developers admit so.
>>83387012
Anon, PulseAudio runs on top of ALSA. The entire point was to make an interface that made it easier to manage ALSA stuff. And it works fine.

As long as low latency is not requires, Pulse works fine. It has decent noise cancelling, decent echo cancelling, I can route the microphone and the audio from a stream into the same stream on the fly.

Earlier versions if Pulse were buggy so the meme stuck, but in reality Pulse works fine as long as the ALSA backend and drivers work. If the drivers are fucked (which is very common, Linux is still shit at audio drivers, although it has become better in the past 5 years) Pulse won't work properly and the user will need to use config files as shitty workarounds in ALSA.

PipeWire attempts to do the same thing Pulse does, but also add some of the use cases of Jack, sync video and add a way for Wayland to make screenshots and screen recordings.
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>>83387136
>Qt
>can only style my UI with retarded inbred QSS
>end up manually coding because qss is a toy
>Electron
>full power of the web at my disposal
>i can style my UI with real CSS and just use style bro
>>
>>83389746
Use Snappy/Flatpak then.
>>
>>83389595
There's also Motif, GNUstep and Enlightenment.
>>
>>83387547
>>83387579
>>83387591
Please sirs my ui not working why i can't javafx with spring boot
>>
>>83389907
there are a couple of them on https://suckless.org/rocks/
I don't think all of them are dead
>>
>>83390174
>Qt
>real toolkit with fast logic, low CPU/RAM usage and small binaries
>Electron
>not a toolkit but a Chrome instance rendering a website, slow JS logic, high CPU/RAM usage, each binary is at least 100 MB
>>
>>83386635
>another gtk fork
I would simply make my own toolkit from scratch, if I could code
>>
>>83389608
>Budgie has been moving away from GTK since 2017 or so
That's because the guy who actually coded budgie left long time ago and what's left is literally a few low-tier devs who can't produce anything of value ever. So, they barely did anything in these 4 years and it's basically the same gtk-based DE as in 2017. Yes, the HAPPENING from the OP post is literally like 2 or 3 seething retards promising that they will do something this time for sure, the linux world won't even notice something happened.
>>
Fuck GNOME
Fuck Red Hat
Fuck Mozilla
Fuck systemD
Fuck GTK
Fuck pulseaudio
Fuck troons
Fuck codes of conduct

Simple as
>>
>>83390195
Those 3, unfortunately, are their own thing, and not compatible with existing GTK/Qt applications.
I don't see much future for GNUstep or Motif, but Enlightenment could succeed, I think.
>>
>>83390345
>I would simply make my own toolkit from scratch, if I could code
part of the problem is that doing that is a massive amount of work, even if you can code. you'll dedicate yourself to writing the toolkit, but you still need to develop the applications that would use it.
>>
Umm, can I get a based in here?
>>
>>83387008
You mean a Ribbon, then?
>>
>ohhh im gonna THEEEEMING

you know how many windows and mac os users give fucks about lack of themes? not many. because they use computer for actual productive things.
muh 30 years old THEMERS is main reason why linux desktop is what it is.
>>
My big problem with most of these alternate toolkits is they come up with all these fancy widgets and apis, but their accessibility features suck because nobody on the team is disabled or is willing to do some RND.
>>
>>83387062
>we have a choice
And thats why no one likes GNOME.
They think that the only valid DE is them
Their tools cannot be themed
They even went out of their way to implement Wayland, a protocol system without protocols so that the only valid implementation is theirs.

Wlroots will fail because its going to be sabotaged by gnome. The foot id going to poison their software with special snowflake protocols that will crash their competitors and force them to play catch up like its been happening with plugins and themes for over a decade.

And all this is happening because of the stupid meme that Linux is fragmented, SO FUCKING WHAT! DO YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THE 100 types of CHESS your supermarket offers you? no! then why complain about this irrelevant point?
>>
>>83390777
Your proposal that Gnome devs move out to either Windows or Macos is an acceptable deal.
>>
>>83390777
Most schizos from the desktop threads will be actually more happy with it than not, because they're mostly using terminal-based tools, so properly working recoloring out of the box will allow them to just feed their terminal color scheme into it and the stray gnome app they have to use will look fine and won't force them to come up with a new gtk theme(or searching for something looking close) just for it.
>>
>>83390629
Enlightenment is what the Tizen OS uses.

GNUstep is just a libre implementation of the thing that Macs used before.

Both are mature enough.
>>
I'm alright with the idea of not ricing, but you need something that doesn't make you want to change it. New adwaita sucks balls. Why would I want to work or do literally anything with that garbage on screen?
>>
>>83391105
Well gtk apps with that headerbar will not fit into any wm anyway, so it's the only remaining users are only those who uses gnome and can tolerate the look of adwaita.
>>
KDE bros we can't stop winning.
>>
>>83387009
>that is a terrible font
Cantarell? The GNOME desktop font by default that you can't even change in the normal settings panel? Perhaps it was done on purpose just so people see what the issue is.
>>
>>83387223
Facts: Lua is literally the best language for UX
>>
>>83392277
I'm so tempted to post the gtk4 blur font bug (WONTFIX).
>>
>>83392320
Honestly with their obnoxious attitude about that issue I'm not surprised some people don't want to play their silly game anymore or contribute.
>>
Qt and LXQt exist and will continue to. If Qt goes proprietary, LXQt suite and other Qt apps will continue to work, and people will move forward accordingly. I can't bring myself to give a shit about the GTK mess.
>>
>>83389451
There should also be a new system.
I'm tired of non-ecc memory requiring me to restart when I notice some discrepancy in my system or when I get a lot of errors. It also kinda destroys the rowhammer meme which is a serious exploit, like one bitflip = big vulnerability.
>>
>>83386952
Kill yourself you autistic rēdditor for posting this faggot retarded shit that doesn’t make a lick of sense if you know anything about software development.
>>
>>83390168
>trash for low latency
It really isn't, take a look at the test and read slowly what the developers actually said, it only is inferior when using USB devices and can be tuned to reach jack levels, using a PCIE device actually brings better latency on pipewire
https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/pipewire/pipewire/-/wikis/Performance
>>
>>83387009
> more people should contribute not less.
If only it were that simple, GNOME is actively hostile to outside contributors. If you're not part of the in-group then you're fucked.
>>
>>83387316
How is it a license violation to republish bsd code under gpl? Bsd is called the cuck license for a reason
>>
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>>83386635
>Red Hat's monopoly goes down from today!
LMAO
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>>83393421
It's trash hands down. Downsampling is locked down and you can't modify the resampler methods.
Got a Tempotec dac? Good luck, enjoy your trash resampler on your Hires dac.
Hey low latency for your shit CPU! I love linux gaming and osu! and OBS!!! AND I CAN USE MY GLOWBLUETOOTH HEADSET NOW (vibrating_sojak.gif)
>>
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GNOMElets BTFO
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>>83389561
What about Gtkmm?
>>
>>83392236
it's not about end users actually. it's about linux repackers screeching because they can't THEME and it hurts their ego.
>>
i use dwm, what is GTK?
>>
>>83386635
Anyone could have stuck their finger in the air to see which way the wind was blowing on this one. GNOME and GTK are not simply hated because it's cool. They are hated because they suck. The number of people jumping ship is growing exponentially.
>>
>>83394043
Yeah I switched to it for shits and giggles and I don't think it improved anything. I got a tempotec sonata HD pro myself. Any good pulseaudio settings for that?
>>
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>>83391346
I agree that they're mature (based on hearsay, I never developed using GNUstep or Enllightenment).
Unfortunately, migrating a program from GTK or Qt to any of these is a completely rewrite in most cases (I'm not optmistic about most devs separating core functionality from user interface that well). That works for Budgie devs because they were planning on rewriting everything from scratch anyway - GNOME devs being cunts triggered the toolkit change, not the rewrite itself. Also note that Budgie is just the DE, they don't write any companion programs for it themselves. Stuff like a calculator, a text editor, a file manager, etc. are reused from other DEs (the right call, imo).
I don't believe XFCE devs, Cinnamon devs, MATE devs and everyone else have the physical and mental energy to rewrite their whole DE and applications. So they accept whatever GNOME devs push to them. I don't know how to get out of that situation.
Maybe XFCE, Cinnamon and MATE devs could team up to (re)write a core set of applications that work on all these DEs while the DE work is done separately. I don't know.

The KDE situation is much more friendly, but they are at the whims of Qt Company giving up on being dual licensed (which they have hinted at a few times in the past).
>>
>>83394700
gtkmm docs are shit and I am pretty sure they don't use gintro for the bindings. Its in a weird spot but they will never use it they would rather shill for rust instead.
>>
>>83395461
>NOOO NOT MY HECKING THEMERINO
>>
>>83386635
>Linux desktop
You have some food stuck in your beard, mate.
>>
>>83387161
t. web ‘developer’
>>
>>83387285
ElementaryOS doesn’t have this problem.
>>
>>83388005
> linux arrogant community is the main reason why desktop linux sucks
Really gets the noggin joggin… why would autistic NEETs be the only ones using Linux?
>>
>>83386635
good, about time people started to put up or shut up
you get so many people constantly complaining about muh linooks ecosystem but no one puts in work
if you want a change in free software, you need to be that change. don't expect IBM to work for your interests for free
>>
>>83389595
Microsoft will do it through the back door with .NET
>>
>>83387009
GTK developers (some of which are also GNOME devs) have been openly hostile to contributors before. Outside devs made patches, merge requests, that are simply ignored or met with hostility.

GTK would have been a great open source toolkit if it had remained un-opinionated and generic. As it stands, GTK is the 'GNOME' Tool Kit, and one could argue that Red Hat steers this ship
>>
>>83389884
Off topic, but I WILL FUCK THAT SQUIRREL.
>>
Gtk is utter trash, I wish more people would know about libagar.
http://libagar.org/
>>
If free software is meant to be great, why has nobody come up with a credible alternative or fork for GTK in the better part of a decade? Feels like all people want to do is moan about it but not do any work.
>>
So what's the best alternative for GNOME?
>>
>>83397355
>muh fork
no one is gonna maintain a gtk fork
>>
Solus devs have been talking about getting away from gnome for years and nothing ever happens. Also, one of the main devs has gone full troon
>>
>>83389682
JavaFX is using full GPL while both Qt and GTK are LGPL. afaik that means something not sure what exactly, but tldr not an option thanks to retarded linking rules
>>
>>83389689
Because it's bad
>>
>>83397430
xfce
>>
>>83395400
Gimp tool kit
>>
>>83397937
more like gimped toolshit
>>
>>83397948
You must be over 18 to post here
>>
>>83397980
hey man lay off his case its a decent joke ok? you gotta lighten up bro.......
>>
>>83398024
fine...
>>
>>83386635
there have been multiple ports from GTK to Qt in the last years. one more app will not make much difference. they were retarded to start with GTK in the first place.
>>
>>83393421
Jerk off to your snake oil resampling quality of which no one can hear a difference, faggot.
>>
i use mate
>>
>>83399709
>mate
Are they making any progress with gtk3 transition? What do they plan to do when retarded gnome devs rolls out gtk5? It's a never ending game.
>>
>>83399758
>gtk3 transition
wasn't mate always gtk3? (post-release)
>>
>>83386779
their calculator program has ...a network connectivity. a calculator.

can only imagine how is the entire env when you install it.
would not use it if you payed me.
>>
>>83400017
I always thought mate is gtk2.
>>
>>83400476
it was designed to mimic gnome2 but it was gtk3 as far back as i can remember
>>
>>83389451
>>83389470
>>83389552
you fucking retards, if that ever hypothetically happened you do know KDE can just fork one of the older versions of QT and keep building on that? because QT is under the fucking GPL?

https://kde.org/community/whatiskde/kdefreeqtfoundation/
>>
>>83393005
LXQt is fucking horrible, I tried the old abandoned LXDE and damn it was so much better than the horrible mess that is LXQt. wonder what could have been if they hadn't abandoned it in the first place.
>>
>>83386779
No thanks, I'd rather use something that is already appropriate to my needs.
>>
>>83400909
well they were about to get abandoned anyway so they merged with razorqt
>>
>>83386844
I have to admit, it is pretty stable compared to Plasma.
But fuck, Plasma is just amazingly good looking and just has so much you can do. If it fixes the bugs it's probably going to steal most Gnome users.
>>
>>83401133
shame they're not feature parity with kde4 yet
>>
>>83402390
Name 11 features that you used in KDE4 that aren't present in Plasma
>>
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When did you grow out of the Desktop Linux -meme?
>>
>>83401133
>If it fixes the bugs
It can never fix the bugs, because they keep adding useless "features" that are only useful for like 500 people on the whole planet because some random dude asked for it and then nobody maintains and develops those "features" further and they're just accumulating the bugs.
>>
>>83402476
i dont remember which were official or other widget/plasmoid things. that whole side of things is just wrecked.
>>
>>83388005
>linux arrogant community
summarized gnome devs in 3 words
>>
removing features is good.
i want a single working linux distro that werks, not a gazillion of different half-broken options.
>>
>>83402783
try Windows Linux
>>
>>83389884
Why do they get the right to release it under a BSD style license when it's already GPL?
>>
>>83402872
license agreements
>>
>>83386635
I just got done fornicating with my stay at home wife. What's GTK? I've never used Linux.
>>
>>83386635
>a bunch of literally whos throw childish tantrums against gtk
>mass exodus
>>
>>83387120
KDE uses JavaScript too.

Not like this is a problem.
>>
>>83400871
They both know they don't have the manpower to actually do it.
>>
>>83387325
Qt is the root cause of KDE being trash.
In fact, all Qt-based desktops are trash, not just KDE.

I'm willing to bet that not a single soul ITT has ever actually used Qt with its beautiful MOC.
>>
>>83386635
Problem is both GTK and Qt sucks, which is the reason that after more than a decade, neither of them has been able to become the de facto standard gui toolkit on *nix.

Perhaps something new and actually good will emerge, but until then this is all a question of trying to figure out which one of these options is slightly less shitty.

No wonder terminal UI libraries are so popular these days.
>>
>>83402476
Not him but RIP Netbook mode
>>
>>83403728
GTK has been a de facto standard for years, it's just Kdrones pretending it's not.
>>
>>83403884
F
P I C K E R
L
E
>>
>>83403884
the defacto standard applications are changing fast
>>
BUMP
>>
>>83386635
i hope so. i hate how they keep removing features that already existed in gtk2
>>
>>83400518
It wasn't "designed" to "mimic" anything.
It was literally just Gnome 2. The guy copy pasted Gnome 2 code unto a fork, taking care to change package names to avoid library and binary conflicts.
The move to GTK3 was a relatively recent thing.
>>
>>83402987
I did
Why do you act as if it's special or something you dumb fag?
>>
>>83388687
this. didn't they almost get fucked by this a while ago...



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